Life on the computer
Marie de Villers
We have been working towards unschooling for several years now deschooling, perhaps still deschooling... My son is 14. He is awesome. But we (myself and my husband) get a little nervous sometimes about the fact that he has spent probably 90% of his time for the last few years on the computer with on-line friends, playing role-playing games or just talking
He is very mature/serious. He is now an officer of his WoW guild.
A little background: We live in an area with no kids around, we aren't terribly social lately no friends/families coming over here much lately, although we live with my parents. I work 50% from home (on the computer) and 50% out. I try to match my work from home time with his evening/night "raid" schedule, and try to be around and available to do other things with him if he is interested and try to find things that I think might be of interest to him. But there isn't much that he is into lately. We do support his computer interests talk about what he's doing all the time, take him to the computer store when he needs upgrades. And we are "side by side" most of the time our computers/desks are in the same room. He likes to stay physically connected.
We homeschooled for 3 or 4 years prior and when we discovered unschooling, I was quite busy with my work from home and don't think that I made a big enough effort to find/offer interesting things to do. I suspect that much his time on the computer then was filling a need kind of a survival thing not much else to do while mom was working.
Our unschooling is a work in progress I try to balance out everyone's needs; my husband is supportive, but hesitant, perhaps 70% on-board with unschooling.
Part of me thinks I should be working harder to make our home more interesting, and then part of me thinks I should just step back and trust that he is doing what he needs to be doing right now and not try so hard. Sometimes I feel that when I keep offering other things to him, that I am suggesting that I am not o.k. with what he "is" currently doing, and I don't want to do that.
Any thoughts/advice is welcome. Thank you.
Marie
A little background: We live in an area with no kids around, we aren't terribly social lately no friends/families coming over here much lately, although we live with my parents. I work 50% from home (on the computer) and 50% out. I try to match my work from home time with his evening/night "raid" schedule, and try to be around and available to do other things with him if he is interested and try to find things that I think might be of interest to him. But there isn't much that he is into lately. We do support his computer interests talk about what he's doing all the time, take him to the computer store when he needs upgrades. And we are "side by side" most of the time our computers/desks are in the same room. He likes to stay physically connected.
We homeschooled for 3 or 4 years prior and when we discovered unschooling, I was quite busy with my work from home and don't think that I made a big enough effort to find/offer interesting things to do. I suspect that much his time on the computer then was filling a need kind of a survival thing not much else to do while mom was working.
Our unschooling is a work in progress I try to balance out everyone's needs; my husband is supportive, but hesitant, perhaps 70% on-board with unschooling.
Part of me thinks I should be working harder to make our home more interesting, and then part of me thinks I should just step back and trust that he is doing what he needs to be doing right now and not try so hard. Sometimes I feel that when I keep offering other things to him, that I am suggesting that I am not o.k. with what he "is" currently doing, and I don't want to do that.
Any thoughts/advice is welcome. Thank you.
Marie
Joyce Fetteroll
On Apr 9, 2012, at 11:10 PM, Marie de Villers wrote:
Some people withdraw to the internet (or books, TV, or on the extreme end drugs, alcohol) because they feel powerless to change the dullness, hopelessness, lack of control in real life.
Some people plunge into what they love because it makes them happy and meets their needs.
The activity looks the same on the outside. Inside very different emotions are at work. They look the same but they shouldn't be confused with each other.
If you're staying connected, if you're offering things he would enjoy doing, then it sounds like he's doing fine.
How about planning with him some days out -- around his schedule -- doing something new or refreshing. You may need to do much of the searching and planning of the cool stuff. Approach it as something positive to give his brain a break to help him game better :-) -- which it would be! -- rather than trying to get him to do less of what he's doing and more of what would make you feel more comfortable.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> But we (myself and my husband) get a little nervous sometimes about the factIs he happy?
> that he has spent probably 90% of his time for the last few years on the
> computer with on-line friends, playing role-playing games or just talking�
> He is very mature/serious.
Some people withdraw to the internet (or books, TV, or on the extreme end drugs, alcohol) because they feel powerless to change the dullness, hopelessness, lack of control in real life.
Some people plunge into what they love because it makes them happy and meets their needs.
The activity looks the same on the outside. Inside very different emotions are at work. They look the same but they shouldn't be confused with each other.
If you're staying connected, if you're offering things he would enjoy doing, then it sounds like he's doing fine.
How about planning with him some days out -- around his schedule -- doing something new or refreshing. You may need to do much of the searching and planning of the cool stuff. Approach it as something positive to give his brain a break to help him game better :-) -- which it would be! -- rather than trying to get him to do less of what he's doing and more of what would make you feel more comfortable.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Meredith
"Marie de Villers" <mdvhome@...> wrote:
It can help to separate those things out in your mind rather than lumping them together as "time on the computer" as if it was all the same thing. Socializing isn't the same as playing a game - and playing a game in the usual sense isn't the same as the kind of concerted organization involved in running WoW raids.
There have been times when I could say I spent 90% of my waking hours reading, or sewing, or parenting. I currently work in an upholstery shop with a lady who really does spend most of her life upholstering and loves it. My partner's mom spends most of her time on the computer, as a graphic designer, even now that she's technically retired - she just can't get enough!
I like Joyce's advice about planning outings - we're homebodies at my house, so now and then it helps me to remember to get the family out to do something fun. I'm noticing a lot of anime and comic conventions this time of year, so look for one in your area, maybe - that could be fun for your son - or look for events or shows or shops related to things he does online.
---Meredith
>But we (myself and my husband) get a little nervous sometimes about the fact that he has spent probably 90% of his time for the last few years on the computer with on-line friends, playing role-playing games or just talking He is very mature/serious. He is now an officer of his WoW guild.**************************
It can help to separate those things out in your mind rather than lumping them together as "time on the computer" as if it was all the same thing. Socializing isn't the same as playing a game - and playing a game in the usual sense isn't the same as the kind of concerted organization involved in running WoW raids.
There have been times when I could say I spent 90% of my waking hours reading, or sewing, or parenting. I currently work in an upholstery shop with a lady who really does spend most of her life upholstering and loves it. My partner's mom spends most of her time on the computer, as a graphic designer, even now that she's technically retired - she just can't get enough!
I like Joyce's advice about planning outings - we're homebodies at my house, so now and then it helps me to remember to get the family out to do something fun. I'm noticing a lot of anime and comic conventions this time of year, so look for one in your area, maybe - that could be fun for your son - or look for events or shows or shops related to things he does online.
---Meredith
Schuyler
http://i.imgur.com/IpIZs.jpg is a little blurb by Penn Jillette of Penn and Teller fame. It's talks about focus and value. It might give someone here a little perspective. Maybe not you, but maybe.
Schuyler
Schuyler
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
odiniella
--- In [email protected], Schuyler <s.waynforth@...>
wrote:
someone here a little perspective. Maybe not you, but maybe.
time on the computer, I am starting to watch my oldest (almost 17) move
on from this interest. He's not moving *away* from it, but moving on,
evolving. Everything he learned has contributed in some way to the
knowledge he has now. It helps me to enjoy watching my 12 yo enjoy
hours of minecraft.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
wrote:
>Penn and Teller fame. It's talks about focus and value. It might give
> http://i.imgur.com/IpIZs.jpg is a little blurb by Penn Jillette of
someone here a little perspective. Maybe not you, but maybe.
>Thanks for sharing this. As a mother of three who spend significant
>
> Schuyler
time on the computer, I am starting to watch my oldest (almost 17) move
on from this interest. He's not moving *away* from it, but moving on,
evolving. Everything he learned has contributed in some way to the
knowledge he has now. It helps me to enjoy watching my 12 yo enjoy
hours of minecraft.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
K S
I love the link with Penn and agree wholeheartedly with his message.
I too play WoW and I don't raid because -- frankly...it's too hard. I
often stand in stuff on the floor and don't use my cool downs properly.
Macros would help, but that can be very intensive for timing and
programming. My ability to pay attention to ALL the nuances of a single
raid fight is not sufficient to be a proper member of a raid party. (And
raids are usually 4-6 hours! Talk about feeling like an albatross.)
I want to be...but I am not skilled enough. Even with all the bells and
whistles on my desk now (which most "teens" do not have: special WoW
keyboard with macroing ability and a special game pad to "make" it
easier...) I am not able to learn how to raid well. It bothers me, I want
to be good...I don't like feeling like a failure.
But I also have to give myself permission to see other aspects of WoW as
good endgame content FOR ME. I don't raid...but I LOVE mining and resource
gathering. Most people don't. But that's OK because what I want from WoW
is to be able to relax and enjoy my time. And that's usually what people
want out of life, no?
As to "doing" things out of the house...whatever value there may be in that
for some people, (and I am largely an extrovert btw) I HATE leaving my
house. We are all (meaning my family) home-bound type people. I love to
travel etc...but I more like the idea of travel. I really want to sleep in
my own bed, use my own bathroom when I want to, and be on my computer. And
that mostly trumps the value of going anywhere in the world for me. I'd
love to go back to China but I don't want to be on a plane that long.
(Someone should invent the Star Trek transporter...I'd be more likely to
want to go places if it was instant there and instant back.)
I would HATE it if my spouse planned things for us to do and then "offered"
them to me as "Oooh...look...we can go to this (insert thing here)
tomorrow!" Even if he asked me if I wanted to go, I'd be very likely to
look at his face and see the effort he went to so we could (insert thing
here) and I'd feel obligated to say yes to going so he could feel happy and
wanted. I would then have to force myself to have a good time or hide my
real emotional state to avoid not looking grateful for the time with him
and the (insert thing here) ...
So this is offered in the spirit of 1.) WoW is hard and takes skill to be
good at it. 2.) There is nothing "better" about being out than in if you
are a person who doesn't like being "out" and 3.) be aware that any effort
offered to another person is by definition loaded with THEIR perception of
what the giver's perception is of THEIR reaction. And so may not be as
welcome as one might think.
YMMV
Karen
PS) There is REAL socialization going on in WoW and other games all the
time. I spend a lot of time talking about real and weighty issues with
people in the game all the time. Last night we were talking about politics
and bias ... discussing the most base and horrible aspects of human
behavior... while at the same time people were willingly suspending their
own game play to help others get an achievement. (That last bit is a huge
deal and shows the very best of human behavior.)
Do not discount what WoW and other games make available to people. They
"normalize" a lot of human beings and enable cooperative work.
Watch this:
http://www.ted.com/talks/jane_mcgonigal_gaming_can_make_a_better_world.html
but even without the lofty goals...gaming makes the world better.
If there is anything that we wish to change in the child, we should first
examine it and see whether it is not something that could better be changed
in ourselves. ~ Jung
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I too play WoW and I don't raid because -- frankly...it's too hard. I
often stand in stuff on the floor and don't use my cool downs properly.
Macros would help, but that can be very intensive for timing and
programming. My ability to pay attention to ALL the nuances of a single
raid fight is not sufficient to be a proper member of a raid party. (And
raids are usually 4-6 hours! Talk about feeling like an albatross.)
I want to be...but I am not skilled enough. Even with all the bells and
whistles on my desk now (which most "teens" do not have: special WoW
keyboard with macroing ability and a special game pad to "make" it
easier...) I am not able to learn how to raid well. It bothers me, I want
to be good...I don't like feeling like a failure.
But I also have to give myself permission to see other aspects of WoW as
good endgame content FOR ME. I don't raid...but I LOVE mining and resource
gathering. Most people don't. But that's OK because what I want from WoW
is to be able to relax and enjoy my time. And that's usually what people
want out of life, no?
As to "doing" things out of the house...whatever value there may be in that
for some people, (and I am largely an extrovert btw) I HATE leaving my
house. We are all (meaning my family) home-bound type people. I love to
travel etc...but I more like the idea of travel. I really want to sleep in
my own bed, use my own bathroom when I want to, and be on my computer. And
that mostly trumps the value of going anywhere in the world for me. I'd
love to go back to China but I don't want to be on a plane that long.
(Someone should invent the Star Trek transporter...I'd be more likely to
want to go places if it was instant there and instant back.)
I would HATE it if my spouse planned things for us to do and then "offered"
them to me as "Oooh...look...we can go to this (insert thing here)
tomorrow!" Even if he asked me if I wanted to go, I'd be very likely to
look at his face and see the effort he went to so we could (insert thing
here) and I'd feel obligated to say yes to going so he could feel happy and
wanted. I would then have to force myself to have a good time or hide my
real emotional state to avoid not looking grateful for the time with him
and the (insert thing here) ...
So this is offered in the spirit of 1.) WoW is hard and takes skill to be
good at it. 2.) There is nothing "better" about being out than in if you
are a person who doesn't like being "out" and 3.) be aware that any effort
offered to another person is by definition loaded with THEIR perception of
what the giver's perception is of THEIR reaction. And so may not be as
welcome as one might think.
YMMV
Karen
PS) There is REAL socialization going on in WoW and other games all the
time. I spend a lot of time talking about real and weighty issues with
people in the game all the time. Last night we were talking about politics
and bias ... discussing the most base and horrible aspects of human
behavior... while at the same time people were willingly suspending their
own game play to help others get an achievement. (That last bit is a huge
deal and shows the very best of human behavior.)
Do not discount what WoW and other games make available to people. They
"normalize" a lot of human beings and enable cooperative work.
Watch this:
http://www.ted.com/talks/jane_mcgonigal_gaming_can_make_a_better_world.html
but even without the lofty goals...gaming makes the world better.
If there is anything that we wish to change in the child, we should first
examine it and see whether it is not something that could better be changed
in ourselves. ~ Jung
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Marie
First, thanks to all who have responded so thoughtfully. The comments/links
have all been super helpful and have given my husband and I something to
look at together and talk about.
My son (Sam) is very happy. My husband and I both see that. We also see
the amazing stuff going on with his WoW guild. We just lose confidence
sometimes - we feel so different from other "local" families and it gets to
us sometimes.
So we will continue on, feeling a little more at ease. We'll see what we
can come up with for some outings, but won't push it too hard. Some of the
outings that I have tried have fallen pretty flat - probably because they
were what I thought that I "should" be doing to try to make more connections
for him in the world of homeschooling, so I'll try to change my focus to
really find things that he's into.
Marie
--------------------------------------------------
From: "Joyce Fetteroll" <jfetteroll@...>
Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2012 8:08 AM
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Life on the computer
have all been super helpful and have given my husband and I something to
look at together and talk about.
My son (Sam) is very happy. My husband and I both see that. We also see
the amazing stuff going on with his WoW guild. We just lose confidence
sometimes - we feel so different from other "local" families and it gets to
us sometimes.
So we will continue on, feeling a little more at ease. We'll see what we
can come up with for some outings, but won't push it too hard. Some of the
outings that I have tried have fallen pretty flat - probably because they
were what I thought that I "should" be doing to try to make more connections
for him in the world of homeschooling, so I'll try to change my focus to
really find things that he's into.
Marie
--------------------------------------------------
From: "Joyce Fetteroll" <jfetteroll@...>
Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2012 8:08 AM
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Life on the computer
>
> On Apr 9, 2012, at 11:10 PM, Marie de Villers wrote:
>
>> But we (myself and my husband) get a little nervous sometimes about the
>> fact
>> that he has spent probably 90% of his time for the last few years on the
>> computer with on-line friends, playing role-playing games or just
>> talking.
>> He is very mature/serious.
>
> Is he happy?
>
> Some people withdraw to the internet (or books, TV, or on the extreme end
> drugs, alcohol) because they feel powerless to change the dullness,
> hopelessness, lack of control in real life.
>
> Some people plunge into what they love because it makes them happy and
> meets their needs.
>
> The activity looks the same on the outside. Inside very different emotions
> are at work. They look the same but they shouldn't be confused with each
> other.
>
> If you're staying connected, if you're offering things he would enjoy
> doing, then it sounds like he's doing fine.
>
> How about planning with him some days out -- around his schedule -- doing
> something new or refreshing. You may need to do much of the searching and
> planning of the cool stuff. Approach it as something positive to give his
> brain a break to help him game better :-) -- which it would be! -- rather
> than trying to get him to do less of what he's doing and more of what
> would make you feel more comfortable.
>
> Joyce
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
> -----
> No virus found in this message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 10.0.1424 / Virus Database: 2411/4924 - Release Date: 04/09/12
>
>
Marie
Thanks for the WoW perspective. I am in the same room with Sam when he is raiding (although I am usually in bed earlier than him on raid nights). I haven't played myself though. This week I was around when Sam and another officer were interviewing a potential candidate for their guild - holy smokes, it was awesome - not sure how to explain it, but I certainly couldn't run an interview so well - so relaxed (I'm a little on the nervous side in these situations), smart questions, polite....
I have watched the Jane McGonigal Ted Talk's. She's cool.
You know, lately, I am really realizing what a great group he has on-line. They really seem to respect each other and have "so" much fun together! I need to find some of this for myself! But right now I need to split my time between my work and being available for Sam and doing what I can around home to make it a great place to be.
Thanks for reinforcing all of the positives of WoW, gaming. And for pointing out some of the pitfalls of organizing outings.
Marie
From: K S
Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2012 4:58 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Life on the computer
I love the link with Penn and agree wholeheartedly with his message.
I too play WoW and I don't raid because -- frankly...it's too hard. I
often stand in stuff on the floor and don't use my cool downs properly.
Macros would help, but that can be very intensive for timing and
programming. My ability to pay attention to ALL the nuances of a single
raid fight is not sufficient to be a proper member of a raid party. (And
raids are usually 4-6 hours! Talk about feeling like an albatross.)
I want to be...but I am not skilled enough. Even with all the bells and
whistles on my desk now (which most "teens" do not have: special WoW
keyboard with macroing ability and a special game pad to "make" it
easier...) I am not able to learn how to raid well. It bothers me, I want
to be good...I don't like feeling like a failure.
But I also have to give myself permission to see other aspects of WoW as
good endgame content FOR ME. I don't raid...but I LOVE mining and resource
gathering. Most people don't. But that's OK because what I want from WoW
is to be able to relax and enjoy my time. And that's usually what people
want out of life, no?
As to "doing" things out of the house...whatever value there may be in that
for some people, (and I am largely an extrovert btw) I HATE leaving my
house. We are all (meaning my family) home-bound type people. I love to
travel etc...but I more like the idea of travel. I really want to sleep in
my own bed, use my own bathroom when I want to, and be on my computer. And
that mostly trumps the value of going anywhere in the world for me. I'd
love to go back to China but I don't want to be on a plane that long.
(Someone should invent the Star Trek transporter...I'd be more likely to
want to go places if it was instant there and instant back.)
I would HATE it if my spouse planned things for us to do and then "offered"
them to me as "Oooh...look...we can go to this (insert thing here)
tomorrow!" Even if he asked me if I wanted to go, I'd be very likely to
look at his face and see the effort he went to so we could (insert thing
here) and I'd feel obligated to say yes to going so he could feel happy and
wanted. I would then have to force myself to have a good time or hide my
real emotional state to avoid not looking grateful for the time with him
and the (insert thing here) ...
So this is offered in the spirit of 1.) WoW is hard and takes skill to be
good at it. 2.) There is nothing "better" about being out than in if you
are a person who doesn't like being "out" and 3.) be aware that any effort
offered to another person is by definition loaded with THEIR perception of
what the giver's perception is of THEIR reaction. And so may not be as
welcome as one might think.
YMMV
Karen
PS) There is REAL socialization going on in WoW and other games all the
time. I spend a lot of time talking about real and weighty issues with
people in the game all the time. Last night we were talking about politics
and bias ... discussing the most base and horrible aspects of human
behavior... while at the same time people were willingly suspending their
own game play to help others get an achievement. (That last bit is a huge
deal and shows the very best of human behavior.)
Do not discount what WoW and other games make available to people. They
"normalize" a lot of human beings and enable cooperative work.
Watch this:
http://www.ted.com/talks/jane_mcgonigal_gaming_can_make_a_better_world.html
but even without the lofty goals...gaming makes the world better.
If there is anything that we wish to change in the child, we should first
examine it and see whether it is not something that could better be changed
in ourselves. ~ Jung
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 10.0.1424 / Virus Database: 2411/4928 - Release Date: 04/11/12
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I have watched the Jane McGonigal Ted Talk's. She's cool.
You know, lately, I am really realizing what a great group he has on-line. They really seem to respect each other and have "so" much fun together! I need to find some of this for myself! But right now I need to split my time between my work and being available for Sam and doing what I can around home to make it a great place to be.
Thanks for reinforcing all of the positives of WoW, gaming. And for pointing out some of the pitfalls of organizing outings.
Marie
From: K S
Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2012 4:58 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Life on the computer
I love the link with Penn and agree wholeheartedly with his message.
I too play WoW and I don't raid because -- frankly...it's too hard. I
often stand in stuff on the floor and don't use my cool downs properly.
Macros would help, but that can be very intensive for timing and
programming. My ability to pay attention to ALL the nuances of a single
raid fight is not sufficient to be a proper member of a raid party. (And
raids are usually 4-6 hours! Talk about feeling like an albatross.)
I want to be...but I am not skilled enough. Even with all the bells and
whistles on my desk now (which most "teens" do not have: special WoW
keyboard with macroing ability and a special game pad to "make" it
easier...) I am not able to learn how to raid well. It bothers me, I want
to be good...I don't like feeling like a failure.
But I also have to give myself permission to see other aspects of WoW as
good endgame content FOR ME. I don't raid...but I LOVE mining and resource
gathering. Most people don't. But that's OK because what I want from WoW
is to be able to relax and enjoy my time. And that's usually what people
want out of life, no?
As to "doing" things out of the house...whatever value there may be in that
for some people, (and I am largely an extrovert btw) I HATE leaving my
house. We are all (meaning my family) home-bound type people. I love to
travel etc...but I more like the idea of travel. I really want to sleep in
my own bed, use my own bathroom when I want to, and be on my computer. And
that mostly trumps the value of going anywhere in the world for me. I'd
love to go back to China but I don't want to be on a plane that long.
(Someone should invent the Star Trek transporter...I'd be more likely to
want to go places if it was instant there and instant back.)
I would HATE it if my spouse planned things for us to do and then "offered"
them to me as "Oooh...look...we can go to this (insert thing here)
tomorrow!" Even if he asked me if I wanted to go, I'd be very likely to
look at his face and see the effort he went to so we could (insert thing
here) and I'd feel obligated to say yes to going so he could feel happy and
wanted. I would then have to force myself to have a good time or hide my
real emotional state to avoid not looking grateful for the time with him
and the (insert thing here) ...
So this is offered in the spirit of 1.) WoW is hard and takes skill to be
good at it. 2.) There is nothing "better" about being out than in if you
are a person who doesn't like being "out" and 3.) be aware that any effort
offered to another person is by definition loaded with THEIR perception of
what the giver's perception is of THEIR reaction. And so may not be as
welcome as one might think.
YMMV
Karen
PS) There is REAL socialization going on in WoW and other games all the
time. I spend a lot of time talking about real and weighty issues with
people in the game all the time. Last night we were talking about politics
and bias ... discussing the most base and horrible aspects of human
behavior... while at the same time people were willingly suspending their
own game play to help others get an achievement. (That last bit is a huge
deal and shows the very best of human behavior.)
Do not discount what WoW and other games make available to people. They
"normalize" a lot of human beings and enable cooperative work.
Watch this:
http://www.ted.com/talks/jane_mcgonigal_gaming_can_make_a_better_world.html
but even without the lofty goals...gaming makes the world better.
If there is anything that we wish to change in the child, we should first
examine it and see whether it is not something that could better be changed
in ourselves. ~ Jung
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 10.0.1424 / Virus Database: 2411/4928 - Release Date: 04/11/12
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]