messy_boys

So, this post is really just about me as a mother. I really feel just lost. I am so unhappy with how things have been and feel powerless to change anything. As you all know, I am going through a very stressful time, divorcing my husband. I have been on my own for a long time and everything falls on my shoulders, responsibility wise.

I've been deschooling for a few weeks now. Unschooling looks like an oasis in the desert, but at the same time I am scared. Scared that I won't be doing enough.

For some reason, I have this picture in my mind of what our days "should" look like (and it's not unschooling at all). That we go to bed at the same time every night. That we get up early at the same time each day. That we have a routine we follow, day in and day out, so that things around the house are always done. The kids sit down to lessons by 9 am and work diligently until noon. After lunch, they spend their time reading or working on a hobby. But this is not how real life is! At least not my life. I have tried to make us fit this "ideal" picture so many times...always failing. And I feel that urge again, to force us into this mold of how things should be!

I swing to the other extreme, then...of doing absolutely nothing. I fall exhausted into a pile and the kids run rampant. The house will be totally destroyed by the end of the day, with food, trash, clothing, toys, etc. everywhere.

I just don't know how to find the in-between. To find what works for me. Today I've given myself permission to take it easy, because yesterday was especially exhausting with the holiday. I am still in my PJ's and making time to read, watch tv and relax. But at the same time, I am not present in my kids' world like I should be. I worry that if I don't get myself together soon, they're not even going to be able to write their names!

I don't know...I don't even know what I'm asking you guys; just feeling confused, down, and guilty for not being perfect.

Thanks for being there,
Kristie

Meredith

"messy_boys" <messy_boys@...> wrote:
>> For some reason, I have this picture in my mind of what our days "should" look like (and it's not unschooling at all)
*****************

What's attractive about that picture? What does it mean to you? It may be that if you can pin down what you find so appealing, you'll have a clue as to how to meet some needs of your own. If it's a matter of "this is what a good mommy looks like" maybe pull it apart and discover what's good about it - or what's Not so good, what you don't really want after all.

And if you're really just hung up on the fantasy, actively take some time to grieve over the loss of that fantasy. You can't have that "perfect" life - and it may well be you can't move on until you've grieved.

I had a bunch of fantasies about how my life would be with Mo that weren't possible because Mo wasn't the baby or child in those fantasies. She's not the warm little snuggler I fantasized she would be, she's busy and energetic, full of long silences she doesn't want broken by me. She's wonderful! But now and then I lose sight of how wonderful she Is by imagining someone else - some theoretical perfect little girl, not the amazing, thoughtful, creative person who gets very impatient when I get in the way of her amazing creativity :S When I really focus on Mo and her innate wonderfulness, I start to wonder what I ever saw in that imaginary girl - she's Way less cool than the real Morgan.

Here's a different look at what you wrote - maybe not what you're in the mood for, but it might help you shift your perspective and see what's great about your real kids.

>>we go to bed at the same time every night. That we get up early at the same time each day. That we have a routine we follow, day in and day out, so that things around the house are always done. The kids sit down to lessons by 9 am and work diligently until noon. After lunch, they spend their time reading or working on a hobby.
******************

To me, that's a horror story. When I read that, I don't see personalities. I don't see lively, curious children, or wondering children, or kids with senses of humor, I see automatons. I see people dulled into sameness by mindless repetition. I see the factory job I recently left where everyone went through the motions because that's what everyone does. You do what you're supposed to do. Ugh. It's no wonder it doesn't work for your family - it would be a sort of tragedy if it did.

A few weeks isn't very long to deschool. It takes time - lots of time for parents, not nearly as much time for kids, unless you keep flip flopping ;)

> I just don't know how to find the in-between.

In between the factory model and the wild rumpus? Amid the stress of a big transition? What about one smallish thing a day and one mediumish thing a week? What sorts of things? I don't know, what sorts of things do your kids like? Look through the strewing links and see what jumps out. Don't try to make your kids do things, and expect that not all your ideas will interest them - you'll have some flops, and at first maybe a lot, especially if you're thinking "learning opportunity" and they can "hear" you thinking it. If you've homeschooled, they'll have gotten sensitive to those sorts of agendas. So look for things which are mainly fun.
http://sandradodd.com/strewing


This next suggestion is another "in between" but a different one. Maybe unschooling is to big for you to wrap your mind around, conceptually all at once and it would help you to think about the idea of unit studies and create some in your house. Think of it as a way to transition, not an end, and work hard on not pushing the subject matter, just strewing it. To help with that, pick fun topics, like: claw machines - watch movies containing claw machines (Toy Story, for instance), go on outings to different places with claw machines (in my town we have them in Walmart, the skating rink, a small Chinese restaurant, and the cinema - big diversity!), play "claw machine" with the kids - one person is the machine and everyone else calls out directions, build a simple claw machine.

Use your kids' interests to spawn ideas, and keep your own ideas light - and don't overdo! One little thing a day, one medium thing a week, one big thing a month. When it starts to seem stale, ditch the idea and go on to something else. Brainstorm some lists. Glancing around my living room: dragons, star gazing, Scooby Doo, imaginary worlds, maps, cat hair.

The point isn't really to do "unit studies" so much as to give You a sense of focus or direction so you don't feel like you're floundering. You can keep reading about unschooling and adding bits of what you read slowly into your life.

---Meredith

Joyce Fetteroll

On Apr 9, 2012, at 4:05 PM, messy_boys wrote:

> For some reason, I have this picture in my mind of what our days "should" look like

My guess is you subconsciously want control over your life because there's so much that is out of your control.

Try directing that need for control over something else, preferably something that doesn't want to control itself ;-) Organize a closet. And then another. Start a container garden. Make lists.

Make a schedule for yourself. Make a goal of a reasonable schedule that will work with several needy children.

> I am still in my PJ's and making time to read, watch tv and relax.


And that's sounding more like withdrawal than relaxing. Since you can't have full control you've withdrawn into no control.

> I worry that if I don't get myself together soon, they're not even going to be able to write their names!


Why do they need to write their names right now?

What kinds of things do they need to do right now? Have they figured them out? Have they asked you to help them?

That's sounds like another desire for control, this time over their learning, trying to make it orderly and moving in a satisfying direction.

Instead, look for fun things to do. Pretend you're on vacation together and do fun things. Find parks you haven't been to. What are the historical sites nearby? Visit a new ice cream place every day and a new park or playground.

Is there something you can all do together? Are there things you can do with them? Can you help them do more of what they enjoy? Can you run something new and fun through their lives?

Dip into Sandra Dodd's site and do just one thing from there:

http://sandradodd.com/unschooling

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

messy_boys

--- In [email protected], "Meredith" <plaidpanties666@...> wrote:
>>What's attractive about that picture? What does it mean to you? It may be that if you can pin down what you find so appealing, you'll have a clue as to how to meet some needs of your own.<<

I guess there are several things attractive about that picture.

-it's how I grew up, so it's comfortable.
-it would make me feel in control of my day, whereas right now I feel that I am in total chaos continuously.
-things that need done (housework) would get done
-it feels peaceful and stable

What does that say about my needs? I'm not sure. I feel like I am at the mercy of my children every day, their whims and needs. I never have time to do anything I want to do, let alone the things I need to do, such as housework. I end up tired, grouchy and hiding in my room.

By the "in-between" I really mean finding a balance between taking care of myself, being happy, and taking care of my kids. Right now I can't seem to do either. I know there needs to be some routine, even if it's just for me, to get housework and such done...but I don't want to "schedule" to the point of micro-managing every 15 minutes.

Kristie

messy_boys

--- In [email protected], Joyce Fetteroll <jfetteroll@...> wrote:
>> Make a schedule for yourself. Make a goal of a reasonable schedule that will work with several needy children.<<

You know, I have this need for control, but at the same time, I resist things that may help me, like a schedule. I have made countless schedules for myself, many of them good and reasonable, but I just end up NOT doing it. I don't know why...

>> And that's sounding more like withdrawal than relaxing. Since you can't have full control you've withdrawn into no control.<<

I was so shocked when I read this because I had never thought of it that way. I do withdraw. I pretty much hide in my room, reading or watching tv.

>>> What kinds of things do they need to do right now? Have they figured them out? Have they asked you to help them?<<

I am still hung up on what they 'should' be doing. I can hear my in-laws right now..."he's 7 and can't read?!" "he's 5 and can't even write his name?!" implied: you are a horrible mother.

>>> Instead, look for fun things to do. Pretend you're on vacation together and do fun things. Find parks you haven't been to. What are the historical sites nearby? Visit a new ice cream place every day and a new park or playground.<<<

I *really* like this. Pretend we're on vacation...I think that is something I can wrap my mind around.

Kristie

Debra Rossing

Pulling out
"-things that need done (housework) would get done"

Take this one apart a bit. Don't look at the WHOLE house. Take one small bit - make your own bed, for example - and just do that ONE thing every day for a bit. When you start to feel overwhelmed, go sit on the bed (door open so kids have access, not closing off) and just take a couple breaths - "this is tidy, I did this, things aren't total chaos". When that starts feeling 'easy' and routine, add something else - maybe get Monday's breakfast dishes done before Thursday.

Along with that, perhaps, look at ways to prioritize and simplify. Put a couple big bins and baskets in handy corners so you can do a '60 second tidy' at some point in the day. Tuck whatever toys and bits don't need to be left out (large lego creations have their own lifecycle!) and throw them in a bin (clear plastic bins are helpful - makes it easier to see the contents - if you can, have a bin for different categories - cars, legos, animals, etc). That'll look tidy and take a minute. Do things like dishes, vacuuming, etc. in 15 minute increments, maybe do one 'cleaning session' per two hours of other stuff. Any time between, say ten a.m. and noon, spend 15 minutes tidying somewhere, then do another 15 minutes between 2 and 4, and so on. Break it down into wee pieces, the way you would cut up dinner for a small child. Minimize the stuff that needs cleaning, too. For now, put away all but one bowl, plate, spoon, fork, cup for each person. Makes for quick wash ups and things can't pile up on you. Pull out a handful of clothing for you and the kids - however much seems needed (people vary on this, my DS will go days in the same clothing sometimes and other times change daily or even a couple times per day depending on activity level). Make it so that you have maybe two loads of laundry per week - that allows for plenty of space to NOT do laundry. Look around the web for 15 minute meals and cook-once-eat-many recipes (for example, a pot of chili takes minutes to throw together and can become multiple meals - a bowl of chili for one, spooned over baked potatoes for two, as a pasta sauce for three - aka 'Cincinnati chili', mixed with cooked rice is four, poured over corn tortilla chips and greens for a 'taco salad' makes five - that's the better part of a week from one pot of chili and a few simple additions). Make a pancake buffet for dinner on nights that you're feeling extra stressed - it's light and fun and simple/quick.

What are your priorities? Not for publication, but a list for your own self. And, not for other people (all those old 'should' thoughts). What is it that YOU need? What is it that your kids need? Sounds like right now, they need YOU - if you're feeling chaos, they must be feeling it too - and even less control of the situation. So, do that - arrange things to need minimal attention, just the basics, and cocoon as a family. Even if you simply bring your book to the common living space while they're playing. You can read, they can play, you're all together. Pretend you're on a new continent, in a new country, and explore your own town, neighborhood, backyard. Simple things. Don't overcomplicate what it 'should' be - it was what it was, it is what it is, it will be what it will be - don't let the worries over imagined 'will be's" get in the way of Is.

--Deb R

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alma

Do you think your children are experiencing their lives as crazy, out of control and unfulfilled as you are? If not, and it is mainly about you, then I can tell you a couple of things that have helped me.

Regarding housework I find that, rather than making elaborate schedules, I have tried to stick to a couple of small things. For example, in the morning I go around the house gathering dirty dishes and dirty laundry, get the dishwasher and washing machine on and then make breakfasts. Even if I'm then slumped in my pjs I can hear the machines running and it feels better. Every so often I'll do a blitz of whatever's most important, perhaps with the kids engagement (DS2 occasionally likes to help) or when they're busy eg I challenge myself to get as much done as I can while they're watching a film.

Regarding the learning aspect, I have, at times, written a "learning plan" for each of my boys. At first these reflected my own anxieties about their learning but over the years they've become more like a to-do list eg DS1's might read something like - 1. Order borax to make flubber. 2. Ask X's mum what was that lego game X was playing. 3. Check charity shops for any more of the Famous Five books. 4. Watch Frank Spencer on you tube etc. The purpose of this is not for any contrived learning goal but simply for me to keep moving forward pro-actively with things that might interest them. I have also, at times, kept a log of things we've done, which, when I see it written down, helps me see what they ARE doing. That might read more like – Monday: visited G next door and saw her new shower, watched Star Wars, played Lego Star Wars on Wii, made lego tie fighter, made birthday card for Granny (using tissue paper and felt tips), read Famous Five together, told jokes from library joke book etc And, if I'm really anxious (or curious), I write down some of the things they've been learning in those activities :-)

Obviously you have a lot on your plate, but putting some rhythm into your own day, or capturing some things on paper, might make you feel a little less lost.

Alison
DS1(9) and DS2(7)

[email protected]

==What are your priorities? Not for publication, but a list for your own self. And, not for other people (all those old 'should' thoughts). What is it that YOU need? What is it that your kids need?==

I too was overwhelmed like you--I am naturally more of a Type A person, so I had to have my house in order to enjoy life...or so I thought. Then somewhere here I read about how what is important cleanliness-wise may not be nearly as important to anyone else in my family.

It was a huge realization and relief! So I sat down and wrote out lists for each member of our family for what things were important to keep clean for each of them--I realized that my "biggies" were dishes, clean counters and table, and keeping the floors clean. My husband? Laundry. My daughter? She liked her books being orderly. My son? He doesn't like dirty toilets.

And THOSE are the things that I focus on. And then at the end of the day we (or just me, if no one else is interested) do a super quick tidy up.

Voila. That's it. I realized it was ME putting so much pressure on myself to keep the house clean and in reality, all of the cleaning I was doing wasn't valued nearly as much as my time spent WITH my family.

Hope this helps!
Trista

Jen

I had to post because, although I'm not going through a divorce right now, this is exactly how I've been feeling. I have a 2 and 4 year old, and days go by with dust all over everything, dog tumbleweed floating throughout the house and sticky fingerprints all over everything. We are new to the unschooling concept, believe in it wholeheartedly, yet I still have many days like this...rather, most of my days are like this. I don't usually physically retreat into another room since I have really little ones, but I mentally retreat...I am not 100% there for them like I should be, and I'm grouchy towards them often. At the end of almost every day, I feel bad about myself because of it. We also flounder everyday, not sure of what to do or where to go...sometimes we are spontaneous and have a lot of fun, but most days are the same...playing at home...I feel like we should be out and about more, exploring the world, but what do you do with a 2 & 4 year old to "mix it up"? It's funny...you envision your "perfect day" as totally structured, and I envision my "perfect day" as wonderful spontaneous chaos...because we are not spontaneous people...and we often cancel plans because we don't feel like doing something. Being on a boring routine IS stifling, and as an unschooler I feel like it's against the law. :) Yet, here we sit on most days, doing normal everyday stuff that all moms do with their kids, and nothing really all that interesting.

My son's interest right now is pirates -- it's INTENSE, but I live in Michigan, so there's not much in the form of outside activities that have to do with pirates (in April anyway), so I sit there and Google things for us to do that have something to do with pirates. I get frustrated that I don't feel creative enough for my kids, and I end up taking it out on the ones that I love by being snappy.

I know what my problem is: Frustration and impatience and always comparing myself to others (whether it's "regular" moms or unschooling moms). It's a daily battle, and every day I wake up hoping I'll do better than the last. I like all the ideas you've been given on here, and I may "steal" a few myself. I am sorry I hijacked for a minute, but I felt it might help you to know that not all unschoolers feel 100% awesome all the time. I know I don't. I wish I could offer more in terms of ways to solve the problem...I can't right now (still learning), but I can offer my understanding and support in your situation. I am hoping things get better/a little easier, at least physically (two young kids is exhausting!) in this unschooling journey...that's what I hear, but we will see. Good luck. :)

--- In [email protected], "messy_boys" <messy_boys@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> --- In [email protected], Joyce Fetteroll <jfetteroll@> wrote:
> >> Make a schedule for yourself. Make a goal of a reasonable schedule that will work with several needy children.<<
>
> You know, I have this need for control, but at the same time, I resist things that may help me, like a schedule. I have made countless schedules for myself, many of them good and reasonable, but I just end up NOT doing it. I don't know why...
>
> >> And that's sounding more like withdrawal than relaxing. Since you can't have full control you've withdrawn into no control.<<
>
> I was so shocked when I read this because I had never thought of it that way. I do withdraw. I pretty much hide in my room, reading or watching tv.
>
> >>> What kinds of things do they need to do right now? Have they figured them out? Have they asked you to help them?<<
>
> I am still hung up on what they 'should' be doing. I can hear my in-laws right now..."he's 7 and can't read?!" "he's 5 and can't even write his name?!" implied: you are a horrible mother.
>
> >>> Instead, look for fun things to do. Pretend you're on vacation together and do fun things. Find parks you haven't been to. What are the historical sites nearby? Visit a new ice cream place every day and a new park or playground.<<<
>
> I *really* like this. Pretend we're on vacation...I think that is something I can wrap my mind around.
>
> Kristie
>

Veronica Deleon-sutter

*...because we are not spontaneous people...and we often cancel plans because we don't feel like doing something. Being on a boring routine IS stifling...*
 
I know how you feel and am very frustrated also. I just can't seem to think of interesting things to do around here (coincidentally in Mich. also). My daughter is 9; our play-group went to the art museum and she was pretty bored.
I'm an introvert, I know that affects a lot of my ideas. I have pleaded with my husband for more help with ideas or outings but he hasn't been much help either.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Schuyler

Pirates can do stuff indoors. Treasure maps, buried treasure. Movies, . Boat building with lego with other things. Minecraft has pirates on it these days. There are pirates in Zelda games. Windwaker has pirates. http://www.ehow.co.uk/info_8294553_pirate-games-indoors.html has some other pirate ideas. There's pirate day. Talk like a pirate. http://www.talklikeapirate.com/ has some cool stuff for exploring piracy. Plank walking. Hobbling about with a peg leg.

I was looking at a website of an artist today, Nina Katchadourian. Someone had posted self-portraits that she'd taken in airplane bathrooms, that were almost Flemish portraits. Very similar (http://cclarkgallery.com/artists/series/nina-katchadourian/seat-assignment). Her ability to look at something and see potential for engagement or art or whatever amazed me. Here she is repairing spider webs: http://cclarkgallery.com/artists/series/nina-katchadourian/seat-assignment. It is a skill. Saying that you aren't creative gives you an out, an excuse, but it isn't something that one is naturally, maybe. Maybe it is more something one becomes. You look for interest in the world. The other day I noticed that all the raindrops on the car window were reflecting a window on the house. It was beautiful and I showed the kids and I showed David and it was a moment of seeing something, of looking and finding, of being open to what is in front of us. That takes practice.
So practice looking for moments of piracy.

Schuyler




>My son's interest right now is pirates -- it's INTENSE, but I live in Michigan, so there's not much in the form of outside activities that have to do with pirates (in April anyway), so I sit there and Google things for us to do that have something to do with pirates. I get frustrated that I don't feel creative enough for my kids, and I end up taking it out on the ones that I love by being snappy.
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

BRIAN POLIKOWSKY

Things to do in the Winter:

this is a wonderful list posted by Deb Lewis and it may inspire you.
http://sandradodd.com/strew/deblist%c2%a0


 
Alex Polikowsky

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Kelly Lovejoy

After he goes to bed or before he wakes up, make a pirate map with a treasure hidden in the house or the yard. You may end up doing that EVERY day, so be prepared with various hiding places and different map ideas. (i.e. Don't put all your eggs in one basket: make a faitrly simple map that you can alter each day. If you go ALL out on the very first one, you might burn out too soon.) Other variations on the map thang are letter boxing and geocacheing.


Talk Like a Pirate Day is in September, but make EVERY day "Talk Like a Pirate Day."


Consider getting a parrot as a pet---or at least visiting pet stores that have parrots.


Make eleborate pirate costumes.


Build a ship out of a refrigerator box.


Walk across "islands" of pillows, chairs, and coffee tables.


"Plant" treasure in sandboxes.


Read Treasure Island.


Keep foil covered chocolate "coins" around as snacks.


Make pirate food. (What would they eat? How important WERE lemons?)


Make your own "rum punch" by mixing various fruit juices and putting it in a bottle with a cork.


Make a "plank" to send ne'er-do-wells off.


Redecorate the bathroom in a pirate theme.


Redecorate his bedroom in a pirate theme!


Watch all the pirate movies: Pirates of the Caribbean, Hook, Treasure Island, Peter Pan. (I'm sure there are others!)


I can't imagine running out of pirate ideas!


~Kelly

Kelly Lovejoy
"There is no single effort more radical in its potential for saving the world than a transformation of the way we raise our children." Marianne Williamson



-----Original Message-----
From: Jen <jenyoust@...>
My son's interest right now is pirates -- it's INTENSE, but I live in Michigan,
so there's not much in the form of outside activities that have to do with
pirates (in April anyway), so I sit there and Google things for us to do that
have something to do with pirates.




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Debra Rossing

Just so you know, most of those "days" that get posted are days with 'something' to mention. DS is almost 14 and our household days look like this MOST of the time:

I get up, shower, eat, pack my stuff, head to work (I WOH 8-5 M-F)
Hubby is usually up around the same time, he has breakfast then spends a couple hours writing (he started a novel during NaNoWriMo 2011 and is on volume 2 of a trilogy at this point!). After a couple hours, he gets up, stretches a bit, then starts playing Skyrim on the PS3. He takes a break for lunch at some point. He usually does the breakfast and lunch dishes in the afternoon and begins whatever prep is needed for dinner (if any, sometimes it doesn't need to get started until I'm almost home - like pancakes). If laundry needs doing, he sorts it and takes it to the basement laundry room before breakfast and does the whole week's worth in one day (he prefers it that way, others might prefer one load per day - it's a habit. When we lived in an apt, he and DS used to go over to the IL's house once a week to use their laundry facilities rather than pay for the coin-op in the apt complex. That once-a-week habit stuck even after we moved in to our house 10 years ago!) When we have a functional treadmill, he usually gets an hour in on that somewhere in the day.

We have dinner, do the dinner dishes, then I get my hour on the treadmill. After that, we watch favorite TV programs, Hubby writes more, checks email and Facebook, etc. During craft fair season (May-Dec) he spends some of his time making duct tape crafts to sell. We head to bed around 10 pm and repeat.

As for DS (almost 14) his schedule is such that he is often still awake when I leave for work, then he sleeps from around 7 am or so until late afternoon, wakes up a bit before dinner, eats, then plays Skyrim or other PS3 game, or Minecraft, sometimes grabs whatever he's currently reading and reads for a while. He fixes himself food as he chooses and we make sure there are things he likes that he's comfortable preparing before we retire for the night.

In summer, we have a garden, so watering and tending is part of the day (usually hubby handles that, but we'll also go out after dinner to harvest whatever is ready). We have little shih tzus of dog hair roaming the living room from our lab mix (they're bigger than dust bunnies!) I clean the bathroom about twice a month, mostly, though it will get a going over if we've got company coming.

We've also got SIL living in the guest room and doing her own laundry and cooking and such and a friend living in DS' room (he sleeps on the couch, we asked him about it before offering the space) who mostly eats with us but does her own laundry. Both of them have odd schedules - SIL works in retail which means evenings, weekends, odd days off; friend is currently substitute teaching while looking for fulltime teaching job, so that's all over the place - plus she works evenings at one of those tutoring centers so that makes things really variable (sometimes she comes home at 3 and leaves again at 4 and gets back around 10 pm).

As you can see, it's pretty ordinary stuff going on - no grand outings or structured anything. We live life. Sometimes stuff comes up that we want to do (like I'm taking hubby to see Fiddler on the Roof this weekend for his birthday, DS wasn't interested when I explained the show to him - he prefers more humor, like Spamalot); in warm weather, we're likely to go hiking on local trails a few days per week (there are some fairly easy, nearby places we can do after dinner when it's daylight until 9 pm). Sometimes one or more of us get a yen for a board game, so that gets arranged. Not a lot of focus on housework, "should", or big plans of some ideal family. We are who and what we are doing things we love. When DS was younger, it was lots of legos...LOTS of Legos....LOTS and LOTS of Legos...I think you can see the trend here LOL. The only thing I make a point of is arranging some sort of 'event' each year - last year, we went to see Spamalot live at a professional theater; a few years ago, we saw Arlo Guthrie live (at the time, DS' fav song was Alice's Restaurant); we've gone to AHL hockey games, minor league baseball games, Jeff Dunham shows (ventriloquist - really funny!), etc. But that's maybe once a year (ticket prices are crazy!), it's not like we're going and doing stuff every day or even every week.

And, too, when you consider that most families are pretty much like that, regardless of how they 'educate' - the kids get up, go to school, come home, do homework, bathe, go to bed, repeat; mom & dad get up, get the kids out to the bus, head to work, come home, have dinner, supervise homework and bath, get the kids in bed, then get to bed themselves, then repeat - maybe sports or other things get mixed in but it's no big shakes. If one parent is at home, while the rest are gone, there's a big chunk of the day where housework gets done 'transparently' to the rest of the family - "someone" cleans the bathroom does laundry, sweeps floors, but that all happens invisibly and it STAYS tidy for a time until the rest get home.

Deb R



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Debra Rossing

>"I'm an introvert, I know that affects a lot of my ideas. I have pleaded with my husband for more help with ideas or outings but he hasn't been much help >either

If you're an introvert, and hubby is (maybe), then perhaps your DD is as well - she doesn't WANT or NEED a lot of going out to be content. There is a distinct prejudice in our society (Okay there are a lot of prejudices in our society, I'm just referring to one) that says ALL kids have to be put into LOTS of social settings and have LOTS of friends in order to be "healthy". Any parent that doesn't push their kid into lots of activities is doing their child a disservice. That's blatant bs. I went to public school but I much preferred being home reading to being out with lots of people around. And, as soon, as I was old enough to stay home alone, I often chose that. It's okay. IF you, hubby, or DD are feeling like you WANT more social interaction, then great, go find it. But, if you and hubby and DD are happy and content at home, then that's great too. Look for ways to bring the world to you - the Internet, TV, NetFlix-like stuff, etc can bring all sorts of things into the house without going out amongst "the great unwashed hordes".

I also use both my own tendency toward lists and that "back to school" feeling in the fall to check in with hubby and DS to see if there are things that are bubbling up that they're interested in doing - do they want to check out a particular type of theater/music/book, are particular art supplies or whatever running low, is there a board or videogame they are interested in checking out, do they want to investigate something particular (like when DS was around 3 or 4 and was intrigued by the sign language used on Blue's Clues - so we got a Kid Sign DVD and learned some basics, like "more", "cookie", "please", "thank you" etc - explored it for a time, then it passed). I make a bit of a list for myself and as I find opportunities around these things, I present them/make them available.

If you do want to get out and about, contact the local chamber of commerce and get their "Tourist" info - or just go online and look up your town or a town nearby and "what to do in <town>" - everyplace has something. Really simple is to just find an ethnic market of some sort and browse the aisles, maybe pick up a treat to take home and try. Look at the colors, the lettering; listen to the different languages around; smell the different smells - and it can all be done without a lot of social interaction which can tire out introverts pretty quickly. Or, if you like critters, find the local dog park and just go visit even if you don't have a dog. I love watching the Westminster Kennel Club dog show just to see all the different breeds and learn about them for myself a bit. DS and I now make an evening of it with snacks and such. Some years ago, DS loved James Bond - he loved the gadgets and fast paced action. So, when I spotted a weekend Bond marathon, I stocked the house with yummy snacks and we prepped some easy to reheat meals, and spent the weekend exploring all things Bond. Now that I look at it, I realize that we explored all sorts of things without leaving the house - British English, connections from one actor to another (Sean Connery was Indiana Jones' father in The Last Crusade, for example), 1960s and 1970s clothing and cars and music. We also looked at the gadgets and discussed how one might go about inventing something like that, whether it was 'just a movie' or if it was something that could really happen; we discussed the different countries/places he goes to - where is Costa Rica? Does it really get snowy in Japan? Etc. Not in a contrived "teachable moment" manner, but more as friends talking about a common interest.

Deb R



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Debra Rossing

> I can't imagine running out of pirate ideas!

LOL yeah, pirates is one of those "This can go on forever" type things, isn't it? It's possible to find napkins and paper plates and eye patches and stuff in those 'party warehouse' type places, too. Heck, Spongebob Squarepants episodes are introduced by a pirate! Dollar stores have inexpensive little plastic boats and pirate figures - thrift shops probably have some too (I know the one near us did at one point, because we donated DS' pirate ship when he wanted to make some space for other things in his room). Skull and cross bones is fairly easy to draw - do potato prints all over some plain paper to wrap the treasures for the treasure hunt. For that matter, DS is almost 14 and he STILL loves treasure hunts - for Christmas these last couple of years, I hide the presents and give him clues to go from one thing to the next, I think I've done maps on occasion as well but the clues are more fun these days for him because I can make them rhyming puzzles that might take a few seconds to figure out.

Deb R



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alma

--- In [email protected], Kelly Lovejoy <kbcdlovejo@...> wrote:
>
> After he goes to bed or before he wakes up, make a pirate map with a treasure hidden in the house or the yard. You may end up doing that EVERY day, so be prepared with various hiding places and different map ideas. (i.e. Don't put all your eggs in one basket: make a faitrly simple map that you can alter each day. If you go ALL out on the very first one, you might burn out too soon.) Other variations on the map thang are letter boxing and geocacheing.


My kids loved doing that aged treasure map thing where you 1) draw your map (marking your x of course) 2) dunk it in cold black tea, or rub it all over with a wet teabag 3) scrunch it up and smooth out again 4) wait to dry. It gives a lovely aged effect, especially it some corners are torn off too. We had loads of these at one time :-)

And my fave pirate joke
Q. Why are pirates called pirates? A. They just aaaaarrrrghhhhh (in pirate voice)

Alison
DS1(9) and DS2(7)

Bun

--- In [email protected], "alma" <almadoing@...> wrote:
pirate joke
> Q. Why are pirates called pirates? A. They just aaaaarrrrghhhhh (in pirate voice)

Another pirate joke: What letters are in the Pirate Alphabet?
AAAAAAAAAA
IIIIIIIII
RRRRRRRRRR

A couple of other links and ideas:

Learn to speak pirate mango language course:
http://www.mangolanguages.com/blog/learn-to-speak-pirate/

How to talk like a pirate:
http://capn_rummy.tripod.com/id1.html

For this summer if your not too far away or can plan a trip: http://www.michiganpiratefestival.com/

Roaring Dan Seavey's story is one of the few pirate legends with a relatively happy ending: http://voices.yahoo.com/great-lakes-piracy-pirates-thrived-great-lakes-893177.html

Sounds like a fun thing to do - pirate sail for kids (again, if possible or as part of a vacation): http://www.michiganmaritimemuseum.org/piratechasersails/

Laurie

Jen

>>It is a skill. Saying that you aren't creative gives you an out, an excuse, but it isn't something that one is naturally, maybe. Maybe it is more something one becomes. You look for interest in the world.<<

This is true; however, it's not that I don't see myself as creative...I do -- I write, make quilts, shadow box art, etc. My problem is what you pointed out in your last sentence, "...look for interest in the world"...that is my issue, and that is what is hard for me. If it's not something that really interests me (pirates), then I draw a blank. If it's not screaming at me from a Google search, I just don't know where to go with it. I did think of geocaching and we do watch movies, but there are limits, as my son is only 4 years old...no Pirates of the Carribbean yet...we've downloaded tons of movies, they just are age-appropriate yet. I guess I do come up with ideas, I just don't always implement them -- it's that lack of motivation thing or thinking my son is too young for something, and I guess it's just from a lack of energy/motivation. Something to work on for sure.

I just watched a video on YouTube the other day about an unschooling mom named Missy. She talked about feeling exhausted, but she still seemed happy and motivated to be her kids' facilitator. I thought some of you might enjoy this...it makes you feel like you're not the only one who feels whipped at the end of a typical unschooler's day:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1-ufUtkJrYY

messy_boys

Thank you, everyone for the many responses to my post. I'm going to respond to several people here in this one post to save time and space. Any further input greatly appreciated!!!


--- In [email protected], Debra Rossing <debra.rossing@...> wrote:
>>Sounds like right now, they need YOU - if you're feeling chaos, they must be feeling it too - and even less control of the situation. So, do that - arrange things to need minimal attention, just the basics, and cocoon as a family.<<

I have kept this in mind a lot more since reading it. They do seem to just want me. To sit next to me, be in the same room with me. The last couple mornings, all four of the littlest ones have crawled into bed with me and we have just cuddled and snoozed. It's been great, and I feel more rested, too!


--- In [email protected], "alma" <almadoing@...> wrote:
>> Do you think your children are experiencing their lives as crazy, out of control and unfulfilled as you are?<<

No, the kids seem happy...it's just me stressing about details and things not being "right."

>>I have, at times, written a "learning plan" for each of my boys...I have also, at times, kept a log of things we've done, which, when I see it written down, helps me see what they ARE doing.<<

I really like both of these ideas, thanks!


--- In [email protected], "tristaleann@..." <tristaleann@...> wrote:
>> I realized it was ME putting so much pressure on myself to keep the house clean and in reality, all of the cleaning I was doing wasn't valued nearly as much as my time spent WITH my family.<<

Another great idea. I think I will ask everyone what their main desires are as far as cleaning goes, and I am even thinking about hiring someone to come in every other week to do some of the more detailed cleaning, such as the tub, shower and mopping.


--- In [email protected], "Jen" <jenyoust@...> wrote:
>>I am sorry I hijacked for a minute, but I felt it might help you to know that not all unschoolers feel 100% awesome all the time. I know I don't. <<

Thank you for your support and letting me know that I'm not the only one floundering around. I am very hard on myself sometimes for not "getting it."


--- In [email protected], Veronica Deleon-sutter <vdeleonsutter@...> wrote:
>> I'm an introvert, I know that affects a lot of my ideas.<<

Now this is another question of mine. I am also an introvert...is this something I need to watch out for, or will I just notice if my kids are craving more social interaction?

THANKS!!!
Kristie

Meredith

"messy_boys" <messy_boys@...> wrote:
>> Now this is another question of mine. I am also an introvert...is this something I need to watch out for, or will I just notice if my kids are craving more social interaction?
*****************

What you might notice more easily is that your kids are driving you nuts ;) I'm an introvert, too, and Ray's an extrovert and I know it helped me when Ray was younger to translate "driving me nuts" into "his social needs aren't being met as well as they need to be". With time and practice, I got better at meeting them proactively - largely by making sure he had a lot of options and outlets in terms of other people. His bio mom was a Great resource in that regard, btw, so if your soon-to-be-ex is any kind of social guy, be sure to keep him in mind as a valuable resource - a way to get the kids needs met And some of your own at the same time.

---Meredith

Schuyler

>I just watched a video on YouTube the other day about an unschooling mom named Missy. She talked about feeling exhausted, but she still seemed happy and >motivated to be her kids' facilitator. I thought some of you might enjoy this...it makes you feel like you're not the only one who feels whipped at the end of a typical >unschooler's day:


>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1-ufUtkJrYY

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I watched the video and I can remember wanting folks to know that I was tired when Simon and Linnaea were little and we were starting down the unschooling path. Maybe, in part, because I wanted someone to validate me, to see that what I was doing was work, that it was hard, that it took time and energy and effort. Maybe, in part, because I wanted someone to approve of my weird and radical choice. I like that she moves, mid-moan, from moaning about all that wears her down in a day, to seeing how fantastic all that they did was.


Unschooling isn't an easier option. And when your children are younger, I think unschooling is a harder option. I think it is easier to make little kids obey arbitrary rules, to conform to parental pressure. They have fewer ways to get away. Whereas older children can squish out the sides, can get away, can run away. I think it also gets easier as you grow with it. Maybe that's part of why it seems easier now that Simon and Linnaea are 15 and 12. Maybe because I've grown with their unschooling it is an easier action to take, it is easier to find moments to breathe, easier to find engaging things to do, easier to look for interest in a moment, in an environment. Maybe not. But it is definitely easier now, and I don't need other people to see what I do as work. I'd prefer that they saw it, if they saw it at all, as joy.


I've found, with some trial and error, that I tend to thrive more looking to and engaging with folks who are doing well at unschooling, marriage, life, then I do with folks who are struggling and who want a good moan. Moaning is almost contagious. Like the Four Yorkshiremen skit: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xe1a1wHxTyo, if you set your misery up to compare with someone else's it gets to be a competitive sport.


Schuyler

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Meredith

Schuyler <s.waynforth@...> wrote:
>> Unschooling isn't an easier option. And when your children are younger, I think unschooling is a harder option. I think it is easier to make little kids obey arbitrary rules, to conform to parental pressure. They have fewer ways to get away.
*********************

Even when that's not the case, one of the things that can make unschooling with young children difficult is there's nothing to which to compare it. When you have a 2yo who wants seemingly everything Exactly So, or a 3yo who comes apart with every transition, a 4yo who's spitting on the floor, or a 5yo you despair will ever say a polite word, unschooling seems a whole lot harder - especially if you know someone parenting conventionally with a same aged child who isn't going through the same rough patch!

---Meredith

Jen

Thank you for all the fantastic pirate ideas, I've gone to work bookmarking all of it, and now I have a huge list to pick and choose from. We aren't close to the MI Maritime Museum or the Michigan Pirate Festival, but we just may make the trip anyway...it would be an adventure and definitely give my son something to look forward to. Pirates have been the thing that has stuck with him the longest. I'm not quite sure why, but he digs it...so, we're just going to go with it. We're actually in the process of finding some huge ship decals to put on his walls in his bedroom.

I think the biggest thing is that I realized I did have ideas, I just wasn't sure if he was "ready" for them or not. But, that is the beauty of unschooling, I can throw those ideas out there, and if they are over his head at this age, that's ok...but, if not, well that's good too. I read the article about strewing, and that helped as well.

Btw, nice pirate jokes!

BRIAN POLIKOWSKY

Jen check around your area for Pirate stuff. Just now the Minnesota Science Museum has a Pirate Exhibit/
You maybe have something going on in your area and do not know/
OH and a couple years ago the duplicate of the Santa Maria and Nina ( Columbus ships) was touring the cities along the Mississipi river
and we went to visit them. It was super cool and even thou it was not a pirate ship it gives you ideas how those boats were and they were pretty small surprisingly  !!!!!
So be open to other things that you can tie in and are fun too.
 
Alex Polikowsky
 



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Debra Rossing

BTW Usborne and DK both have some really cool pirate-related books. We had several of them (I think they've since gone to other people).

Deb R



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meadowgirl11

I remembered seeing a super cool pirates of the caribbean bedroom somewhere and just found the image online http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3057/2326121293_0bb20b2da7.jpg.

Also, just to throw some perspective on what kids are "ready" for. My almost 4 year old has the same constitution as me when it comes to watching movies - she is simply not affected or distressed at all by most movie violence and finds most little kids shows boring. I've had to work with her to help her understand why we can't watch some of the things she likes while certain friends are over, like spiderman or avatar the last airbender, because they get upset. She knows she can turn something off, leave or ask us to skip a part of a show if she is uncomfortable, but rarely asks to. The main thing I try to steer clear of so far is realistic violence with blood, but she's seen it anyway because her big brother (11) is not always discreet with his gaming. She even got into watching futurama with him for a while - she didn't get most of it of course, but she could tell it was funny and it was one of the few things that they could do together.

~Meadow


--- In [email protected], "Jen" <jenyoust@...> wrote:
>
> Thank you for all the fantastic pirate ideas, I've gone to work bookmarking all of it, and now I have a huge list to pick and choose from. We aren't close to the MI Maritime Museum or the Michigan Pirate Festival, but we just may make the trip anyway...it would be an adventure and definitely give my son something to look forward to. Pirates have been the thing that has stuck with him the longest. I'm not quite sure why, but he digs it...so, we're just going to go with it. We're actually in the process of finding some huge ship decals to put on his walls in his bedroom.
>
> I think the biggest thing is that I realized I did have ideas, I just wasn't sure if he was "ready" for them or not. But, that is the beauty of unschooling, I can throw those ideas out there, and if they are over his head at this age, that's ok...but, if not, well that's good too. I read the article about strewing, and that helped as well.
>
> Btw, nice pirate jokes!
>

Debra Rossing

> Also, just to throw some perspective on what kids are "ready" for. My almost 4 year old has the same constitution as me when it comes to watching movies - she is simply not affected or distressed at all by most movie violence and finds most little kids shows boring.

When DS was 5, he loved watching 007 movies and playing the videogames on the PS2. I was, at first, a tad nervous with the 'Bond girls' and all. But, I held my tongue and watched and *listened* to DS. It was several YEARS before he commented "boy he kisses a lot of girls, doesn't he?" He was watching for the GADGETS, for the high speed car chases, the explosions, all the sinister villains meeting their doom - classic good triumphs over evil kind of thing. And, in the videogames, he had almost zero interest in the single player missions but he LOVED the multiplayer aspects in both versus and cooperative modes - fortunately, DH is a gamer and he'd play through the single player stuff to unlock more features for multiplayer.

What distressed DS most (still does sometimes, and he's almost 14) are shows like Bambi and Dumbo, where kids and moms are separated. He also gets upset with things where people are mean to each other in realistic ways (teasing, bullying, hurting, etc) but has no problem watching NCIS and Bones where there are autopsies and decomposing bodies. Even though decomposition really happens, he knows it's TV and those are fake guts. I don't know about all kids, but it seems from the kids I've known (especially those who have a free relationship with media), they are quick to catch that it's not real - those are fake intestines, the explosion is staged, etc. A lot, I think, has to do with having a parent-partner who is beside them helping them, whether it's saying "I checked and this movie has X and Y in it - if you want to pick something else, we can do that. Or we can watch and turn it off if you don't like it" If there's something that scares me, starts me getting teary, etc. I make sure that is visible and that DS has seen me deal with it. There are a couple of Dr. Who episodes I flat out cannot watch a second time because it creeps me out too much. There are specific scenes that I leave the room for. The MASH episode where Henry Blake dies still makes me cry and I saw it when it originally aired years ago (and many times since!) Allowing the freedom for expressing the feelings and thoughts that accompany whatever it is, is really important.

Deb R



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Meredith

Debra Rossing <debra.rossing@...> wrote:
>> What distressed DS most (still does sometimes, and he's almost 14) are shows like Bambi and Dumbo, where kids and moms are separated. He also gets upset with things where people are mean to each other in realistic ways
*****************

"Family drama" was the most upsetting to Mo - adults being snarky to kids or yelling at kids. That was real violence.

She didn't like intense facial expressions combined with scary music, either. So action movies she'd want the sound turned off or low, and sometimes she'd cover her eyes - but it was more the personal intensity of the moment that was upsetting, rather than the action, itself.

---Meredith