messy_boys

I am having a hard time figuring things out. I don't know what to do or what's best. I am very stressed. My husband and I are divorcing. We have six kids. I'd like to continue homeschooling and my husband is supportive of that...but I know I can't do it if we try to go with a more traditional approach, which is why I am looking seriously at unschooling again. I want our home to be happy, less stressed, and I want my kids to love learning again.

BUT...I am having a terrible time deschooling myself. I read about unschooling, etc, and it helps for a while, but then I start feeling like I'm not doing enough. That - and my kids are driving me crazy. I had posted on here already about the screaming (from the 4 littlest) but it is also just the constant NEED that everyone has. And the oldest two arguing over whose turn it is on the computer... My dad is encouraging me to look at public school, to give myself a break, but that's not what I wanted for them. :(

The two oldest boys have been playing Minecraft online NONSTOP for a couple weeks now. They are not sleeping a lot and are grouchy. (13 and 10 years old). My youngest ones never want to get dressed and prefer to wear their PJ's all day. My 5 yo only wants to eat peanut butter crackers and nothing else. Other people seem to feel I am neglecting them by not forcing them to have a routine, and to do the things that normal people do: get dressed, eat properly, and DO school, with limited access to electronics; go to bed and get up at certain times, etc.

I don't even know what I'm asking of you guys. I guess I am just freaking out a little and asking for some advice, or encouragement or something. I only get one chance to raise my kids and I don't want to mess it up.

Thanks,
Kristie

Joyce Fetteroll

On Apr 3, 2012, at 12:55 PM, messy_boys wrote:

> but it is also just the constant NEED that everyone has. And
> the oldest two arguing over whose turn it is on the computer...

I suspect they're reacting to the pending divorce. The stable home they had depended on to be there for them is breaking up and they're powerless to do anything about it.

The gentler you are with them, the more understanding, the more compassionate, the better. It's not likely to be easy on them, but there are things you can do to make it worse and more difficult.

> My dad is encouraging me to look at public school, to give myself a
> break, but that's not what I wanted for them. :(

And would that help them cope with the divorce better? Or would that feel like another betrayal?

Is there any chance you can live together or have houses close or perhaps sharing a 2-family home?

> I read about unschooling, etc, and it helps for a while, but then
> I start feeling like I'm not doing enough.

You're bound to feel off balance which will make everything feel off balance.

The more you can do to nurture them and yourself, the less you concern yourself about what they "should" be learning, the better.

If you can agree with your husband to try one more time, check into what Retrouvaille offers:

http://www.retrouvaille.org/

Joyce

messy_boys

Thank you for your reply, Joyce.

>The stable home they had depended on to be there for them is >breaking up and they're powerless to do anything about it.

My husband has issues with alcohol, so our home has been anything but stable. I should have done something sooner, but kept holding on to those empty promises and giving "one more chance."

I talked with my kids a lot before making the decision to separate and then divorce. They know exactly what's been going on, and were actually relieved and glad I was doing something to bring stability and normalcy back to our home.

The needs just seem so overwhelming; I don't know if it's because so many of them are little, or if it's the fact that I'm by myself parenting six kids. It just seems like there's no break for me - ever.

For example - my 13 yo has an ipad. It is up to him whether or not he shares it with his little brothers. He let the 7 yo play it some, but took it back because he needed it for something. Now the 7 yo is pestering ME to ask 13yo if he can have it back!!!

Someone always wants something, needs something, is fighting, is yelling, is making a mess, etc...it is exhausting and irritating.

Public school would definitely feel like a betrayal to them. I have talked with them about this option and they do NOT want to go to public school.

I am working with my husband in every possible way. We will live in the same metro area and he will have access to them 3-4 times each and every week if he chooses to show up. I am hoping he will be a part of their lives.

Unfortunately, one more time for our marriage is not an option.

Kristie


--- In [email protected], Joyce Fetteroll <jfetteroll@...> wrote:
>
>
> On Apr 3, 2012, at 12:55 PM, messy_boys wrote:
>
> > but it is also just the constant NEED that everyone has. And
> > the oldest two arguing over whose turn it is on the computer...
>
> I suspect they're reacting to the pending divorce. The stable home they had depended on to be there for them is breaking up and they're powerless to do anything about it.
>
> The gentler you are with them, the more understanding, the more compassionate, the better. It's not likely to be easy on them, but there are things you can do to make it worse and more difficult.
>
> > My dad is encouraging me to look at public school, to give myself a
> > break, but that's not what I wanted for them. :(
>
> And would that help them cope with the divorce better? Or would that feel like another betrayal?
>
> Is there any chance you can live together or have houses close or perhaps sharing a 2-family home?
>
> > I read about unschooling, etc, and it helps for a while, but then
> > I start feeling like I'm not doing enough.
>
> You're bound to feel off balance which will make everything feel off balance.
>
> The more you can do to nurture them and yourself, the less you concern yourself about what they "should" be learning, the better.
>
> If you can agree with your husband to try one more time, check into what Retrouvaille offers:
>
> http://www.retrouvaille.org/
>
> Joyce
>

Joyce Fetteroll

On Apr 3, 2012, at 3:07 PM, messy_boys wrote:

> were actually relieved and glad I was doing something to
> bring stability and normalcy back to our home.

Yet they can also grieve for what they wished could be true. Someone said something interesting a while ago that even though they had divorced an abusive spouse they found themselves grieving on an anniversary of the divorce. Not for what they had given up but for the hopes and dreams of a happy married life.

And your kids are going through change. All change is stressful, even good change. Near the top of the list of stresses in life is getting married -- which is presumably a happy thing!

> but kept holding on to those empty promises and giving "one more chance."


Have you tried Al-Anon meetings? They might give you some insight into relationships with alcoholics that you might not have had the distance to see the might be adding to your stress.

> Someone always wants something, needs something, is fighting, is
> yelling, is making a mess, etc...it is exhausting and irritating.

It will help if you can get into a headspace where you aren't the fixer of *every* problem but more of a calm and understanding presence, if you see what I mean. Moms especially have a tendency to feel they need to fix every problem that's brought to them. But it might help to step back and do more listening, reflecting back what their saying, helping them think through problems.

The kids *will* pick up on your irritation and reflect it back. Which will be even more irritating!

Are you eating enough? Getting as much rest as you can?

Do you subscribe to Scott Noelle's Daily Groove. They might help you switch mental tracks out of the rut of being irritated with them to a more peaceful and calm center. They're short and easy and practical.

http://www.enjoyparenting.com/dailygroove

Joyce



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

BRIAN POLIKOWSKY

>The stable home they had depended on to be there for them is >breaking up and they're powerless to do anything about it.

My husband has issues with alcohol, so our home has been anything but stable. I should have done something sooner, but kept holding on to those empty promises and giving "one more chance."

I talked with my kids a lot before making the decision to separate and then divorce. They know exactly what's been going on, and were actually relieved and glad I was doing something to bring stability and normalcy back to our home.


===-=-=-=-=-=-=-

Let me tell you a story. When my parents divorced in my late 20's it was something I thought back them that it was best for my mom. 
Independent of that  and knowing it was the best for her it was still very very difficult for me as a child and a grown up child that had been out of the home!!!!!
It was very hard knowing that I no longer had my mom and dad's home to go to.
It is difficult to explain. 
I was very happy she did it and I supported her but at the same time I had to grieve the loss of my family.

Even if your kids agree and that the new life will be better they are still grieving  and it is still a loss and a huge change and they are not twenty some year old grown up like I was.

Alex Polikowsky

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Meredith

"messy_boys" <messy_boys@...> wrote:
>
> I am having a hard time figuring things out. I don't know what to do or what's best.
*************

Step back from "best" in some grand sense of the word - worrying about ultimate-forever-best is stressful in and of itself! So step back and look for "better right now". Don't look for permanent solutions because kids get older and needs and situations change. Look for sets of useful options to try.

>> My husband and I are divorcing.

So you're in a transitional period. Whatever else can be said about divorce, transitions themselves are hard. It helps me to keep that in mind and go into what I think of as "sick mode" - I pare back expectations of myself and look for lots of ways to rest and snuggle and kind of take it easy. That gives me more energy to deal with the overall stress of long transitions.

>>> The two oldest boys have been playing Minecraft online NONSTOP for a couple weeks now. They are not sleeping a lot and are grouchy. (13 and 10 years old). My youngest ones never want to get dressed and prefer to wear their PJ's all day. My 5 yo only wants to eat peanut butter crackers and nothing else.
*****************

Sounds like they're already in "sick mode". They've figured it out ;) Help your kids relax and destress in ways that work for them. Bring snacks to the kids playing Minecraft and stop by to pat them and offer then hugs. When you can, spend time close to them so they feel you're interested in them and care what they're doing.

PJ's all day... this is a problem? She wants comfort. Pajamas are comfortable. I've taken kids out into the world in halloween costumes in May, so pajamas seem really normal to me!

Peanut butter is nutritious! My daughter has a very very conservative palate and will go through phases where she only eats one food. It helps me to look at what she's drinking and make sure there are interesting juices and fun straws. If I get really stressed (like the summer she lived on milk) I offer vitamins.

>> the oldest two arguing over whose turn it is on the computer...

Any chance of another computer? That sounds simplistic, in part because it really is the simplest possible solution. It helps to think of computers, in particular, as more than one thing - like a whole library. Would you make one of your kids wait outside the library for the other to go in and look around? See the computer like that, a big, complex resource center. And if you're asking family for help in that regard, pitch it as a homeschool resource - it Is!

---Meredith

messy_boys

--- In [email protected], Joyce Fetteroll <jfetteroll@...> wrote:
>All change is stressful, even good change.
>Have you tried Al-Anon meetings?
>Are you eating enough? Getting as much rest as you can?


You are right...all change is stressful and this is a big one for all of us. I think I am being too hard on them and on me. I have been in Al-Anon for a long time, actually! I eat, but not well; I definitely do not rest enough. I love the quiet after littles fall asleep and stay up too late reading or watching TV. My eyes are closing on me right now and it is 6:45 pm. I am too tired to fold the laundry or pick up around the house.

Thanks for the suggestion on the site...I will check it out.

Kristie

messy_boys

--- In [email protected], BRIAN POLIKOWSKY <polykowholsteins@...> wrote:
> I was very happy she did it and I supported her but at the same time I had to grieve the loss of my family.


Thank you, Alex for sharing your experience. I continue to grieve over this loss, even though I know it's what I need to do...and since my kids seem to be well on the outside, I forget what they may be going through on the inside. They are boys, too, so perhaps it is harder for them to say how they feel.

Kristie

messy_boys

--- In [email protected], "Meredith" <plaidpanties666@...> wrote:
>So step back and look for "better right now".
>go into what I think of as "sick mode" - I pare back expectations of myself and look for lots of ways to rest and snuggle and kind of take it easy. That gives me more energy to deal with the overall stress of long transitions.


Meredith, thank you for all of your suggestions. I am very much forgetting to take "one day at a time" and am really freaking myself out. I hadn't thought about the nonstop gaming as a way to relax for my boys.

I guess I just have it in my head that there is a "right" way to do things...when you get up, you get dressed, etc...I still have a lot of changing to do in my thinking. I mean, how is it a detriment, really, to let them wear their PJ's?

I am trying too hard to be strong and perfect and go on with life without missing a beat.

We are currently selling things around the house to get ourselves a new computer...we have two right now, but they're both really old and slow. One is too slow for their game, so they fight over the other computer. My family probably would help me...

Thanks again, and I really appreciate this group.

Kristie

messy_boys

--- In [email protected], Joyce Fetteroll <jfetteroll@...> wrote:

It will help if you can get into a headspace where you aren't the fixer of
*every* problem but more of a calm and understanding presence, if you see what I
mean. Moms especially have a tendency to feel they need to fix every problem
that's brought to them. But it might help to step back and do more listening,
reflecting back what their saying, helping them think through problems.
>


I was wondering if you all could give me some more help on this. Since reading this earlier, I see how true it is...and that they come to me over every little thing.

Some examples...

"Derek won't let me have a drink of water."

"I need to harvest my crops (on a game) and Brad won't give me the ipad!"

"Give me the blanket!" (whap, whap, as the 5 yr old hits the 4 yr old) Screaming starts.

Crying randomly erupts...the 4 yr old has done something to the 2 yo again.

This is just from the last five minutes, I swear. They are so used to me taking care of it, or just screaming at each other...

Thanks,
Kristie

Jenna Brotherton

Something that I find difficult personally, is letting children sort out their own issues - especially when it becomes physical. I am ALWAYS available for support and comfort, but a lot of the time it's just not my place to intervene - not unless is child is very obviously being maliciously cornered. But children, especially young children, don't always have the verbal skills to communicate their feelings, and so the sometimes resort to being physical with each other - and this is a natural stage of development. Children need to do this to learn what is acceptable and what isn't - and that's hard for them to learn when there's always an adult jumping in to prevent outcomes.

One very important factor, in relation to possession of items, is for all children to have their own property. Have communal items, sure, but if a child takes an item that BELONGS to another child, then there is a reason for your intervention if the item is not returned. If a child is using a communal item and another child takes it, then you might speak to the child it was taken from (if they come to you for support) and provide guidance on how they might word their request to get the item back. If the request isn't heeded, depending on the age of the child, you might add a follow-up request directly to the child who has taken the item. If the item STILL isn't returned... well, personally, I just leave it. I will generally say something to my son like, "I'm sorry honey, I know you really want that item but Bobby has it now." and then offer to do something with the child to move away from the problem. If my son freaks out, as he sometimes does, I will offer him support and recognition of why he's so upset, but I won't physically remove the item from the other child.

Another great way to juggle items like the computer/iPad/tv is setting mutually-agreed time limits. If everyone agrees that you can only use the item for half an hour before passing it to the next person, it's not a rule being created by you. You might offer to be the time-keeper, and you will probably find that is agreeable to the children. However, if those methods don't work and this is a repeated scenario in your home, I would seriously look at implementing ownership rights. Especially over items that belong to you - the iPad for example, "I'm sorry, but if you can't share, you can't have it. When you guys work it out between yourselves, please come and see me and we'll talk about it."

Specifically:

"Derek won't let me have a drink of water."

I would find a way AROUND Derek to get your other child a drink of water, without directly interfering.

"I need to harvest my crops (on a game) and Brad won't give me the ipad!"

Time limits on the iPad.

"Give me the blanket!" (whap, whap, as the 5 yr old hits the 4 yr old) Screaming starts.

I would provide comfort to the child who has been hit. If the blanket belongs to the 4-year-old, I would request it, and then retrieve it if it's not handed over. If it's a communal item I would request it, and if it's not handed over I would get another blanket for the 4-year-old whilst providing comfort and recognition of his distress for as long as necessary.

Crying randomly erupts...the 4 yr old has done something to the 2 yo again.

I would provide comfort to the 2-year-old, however I wouldn't try to speak to the 4-year-old unless I had seen what had happened, because I couldn't be certain that he had done something wrong. If this is a repeated scenario I would provide a "safe space" for your 2-year-old to play uninterrupted. If your 2-year-old chooses to play with the older children then that's his choice, and he will learn that rough-and-tumble might be involved.

Hope this helps a bit!

On 4 April 2012 09:40, messy_boys <messy_boys@...> wrote:



--- In [email protected], Joyce Fetteroll <jfetteroll@...> wrote:

It will help if you can get into a headspace where you aren't the fixer of
*every* problem but more of a calm and understanding presence, if you see what I
mean. Moms especially have a tendency to feel they need to fix every problem
that's brought to them. But it might help to step back and do more listening,
reflecting back what their saying, helping them think through problems.
>

I was wondering if you all could give me some more help on this. Since reading this earlier, I see how true it is...and that they come to me over every little thing.

Some examples...

"Derek won't let me have a drink of water."

"I need to harvest my crops (on a game) and Brad won't give me the ipad!"

"Give me the blanket!" (whap, whap, as the 5 yr old hits the 4 yr old) Screaming starts.

Crying randomly erupts...the 4 yr old has done something to the 2 yo again.

This is just from the last five minutes, I swear. They are so used to me taking care of it, or just screaming at each other...

Thanks,
Kristie





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Schuyler

Okay, so let's look at your 5 minutes of children needing you.


1. "Derek won't let me have a drink of water."
What are ythe options I can imagine. You could talk to Derek about not letting him have a drink of water. You could go get him a drink of water. You could go with him to get a drink of water, talking all the while about anything, maybe about water and how nice it is to drink when you are thirsty. You could talk about how Derek isn't letting him get a drink of water. See how many sinks he's blocking off, how many access points there are to water in the house. The kitchen sink, the bathroom sink, the shower, the bath, the toilet, water in the saucer under a plant pot, the hose outside, the dog's bowl, the rain barrel. So it becomes kind of problem solving, kind of questioning Derek's dominance over all things thirst-quenching, and mostly verbal play. So it moves that child from being upset to giggling and suggesting other access points.


2. "I need to harvest my crops (on a game) and Brad won't give me the ipad!"
The ipad isn't his, right. So that one means that it isn't his to use. From me, that would probably be an I'm sorry, maybe he'll let you use it later. And then I'd talk about what he'd planted and why it needed harvesting. What game it was. And if he couldn't listen, then I'd be still. And hold him if he'd let me. 

3. "Give me the blanket!" (whap, whap, as the 5 yr old hits the 4 yr old) Screaming starts.
That's clearly a step in moment.


4. Crying randomly erupts...the 4 yr old has done something to the 2 yo again.
Goodness, is the 4 year old passing down the violence the 5 year old did to him. That's kind of fascinating.


>>This is just from the last five minutes, I swear. They are so used to me taking care of it, or just screaming at each other...<<

You said you have 6 children. Looking through the e-mails I tally ages of 13, 10, 7, 5, 4, 2. That's young children who need lots of care. I understand not fixing their problems, but I don't think Joyce was suggesting that you not take care of them. With such young children you being nearer to hand is a hard one to avoid. Particularly if they are feeling bereft. They need you to take care of them. And with an eruption of needs like that within 5 minutes there were minutes before that within which their needs were growing.


A big thing is being proactive, and with 6, and you being tired, that's going to be a difficult rhythm to establish, but it should make life easier over time. If you fill them up before they are needy, before they are melting down, their needs will be less acute. Set up things so that they are easier to access. Look at all the resources you have to hand and see what you can utilise. So a dvd player and a television and a couch and a movie that maybe the 5, 4, and 2 year old enjoy. Or blankets and string and furniture and pillows and you have forts that they can build and crawl in and out of and play around with and your attention and their action. And in the moments when they are having a good time together, or at least not such a big series of needs, you can grab some food and some drinks and have a picnic with them in the fort. Or treasure hunts, Simon and Linnaea loved treasure hunts and easter egg hunts, all year round, or yarn ball forts where they
had to move through without touching the yarn, like it was laser alarm systems. They liked physical challenges, running around the house with me counting how long it took for them to get from the bathroom down in the bottom corner of the house to the top floor in a three story house and back to me. It got them moving and used up some of their energy and let me sit and be umpire when I was less energetic. 

There will be times when they are tired and frustrated and you are as well. You aren't going to be able to cede your focus or attention in the hopes that they will be able to solve their problems. The more you are aware that they are growing bored or tired or frustrated, the better you will be able to step in and help them to move onto something else. Again with 6 of them and 1 of you it will take energy and attention on your part. But having a series of tools that you can use to move them from one thing to another will help. Do an inventory of interesting things in your house. Make them easily accessible and interesting. Part of why the ipad is interesting to your 7 year old is because it is novel. And it isn't freely available. While looking for money for other computers see if you can find a way to get other sorts of systems to play on. Or other ways to access them. I know people offer free or very cheap pcs on things like Craigslist from time to
time, you could also look for a last series ipad there, or an android based touch screen system. You could look for a gamecube with some games, I bet those are fairly cheap. My favourite cooperative play game is on the gamecube, Shrek 2. We still have ours and the many games we gathered over the years and Linnaea's been revisiting things like Zelda Wind Waker and Sonic games recently. Or a ps2, lots of good games on that system, even if they aren't modern. You could probably pick up an extra tv from something like craigslist fairly easily, as well, if it would give your kids more access to things to do. 

It's hard when you are tired and depressed to look for ways to reach out to the people in your life who need you. It's hard to see ways to take a step forward instead of trying just to be still while all things pass. You don't have the option to be still, though. Or, to be still and quiet and depressed and not have 6 people erupt in moments of need at fairly regular intervals. Being proactive won't make them not fight, it won't cause peace to descend upon your house, but it will help to make the moments not so frequent, not so acute. They need you. 

It can help to find ways to connect with them more. It can help to lift you from feeling low. I say this fairly regularly, but smell their heads, listen to them talking and watch them play. Look at them, not through tired exasperated eyes, but through eyes of wonder and joy and love. When they come to you needy, think about how wonderful it is that you can fill them. You can snuggle up on the couch and watch that same movie again and again with your 4 year old and watch him or her giggle and laugh at the same place each time and fall in love again. You can walk to the kitchen talking to your little one and get him or her a drink of water. You can joke and play and make them smile. You can find a blanket when the other one is desired. You can bring them a plate of peanut butter crackers and know that it is exactly what was missing from that moment. Being a mom is a pretty fabulous thing. Let that fill you up so that in your low moments you can lean on
it a little. 

Schuyler











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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Schuyler

I was thinking about the bread I'm baking this morning and how it wasn't something I did much of when Simon and Linnaea were younger. There are lots of things I do now that I didn't do when they were younger. I read books. I pretty much gave that up when they were small and needed me so much more. I play ukulele, although even that can come into conflict with Linnaea's needs on occassion. I'm much better at setting stuff aside with years of practice though, so it isn't a real conflict, more a comedy conflict. I can clean the house, if I want to, which I don't tend to, but it is a possibility. Dinners can be more elaborate.

Having 6 children 13, 10, 7, 5, 4, and 2 means that being more efficient with your time away from them, external to their direct care, will give you more time to help them out. Having buckets and bins about to toss toys into quickly. Having meals and snacks that are easy to put together and take almost no prep time. Paper plates might be worth having, so that you don't have to do dishes. Lots of clothes per child so that if you don't get around to laundry as often it isn't such a big deal. Really thinking through what you require from yourself to maintain your household. Lower your expectations to free your time for them. As they get older they will need you less. And on the days when they are with their dad you can catch up, maybe, or sleep ;-).


Schuyler

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joyce Fetteroll

On Apr 4, 2012, at 3:48 AM, Jenna Brotherton wrote:

> sometimes resort to being physical with each other - and this is a natural
> stage of development. Children need to do this to learn what is acceptable
> and what isn't - and that's hard for them to learn when there's always
> an adult jumping in to prevent outcomes.

But if they don't see better solutions modeled for their own problems, it will make it harder for them to grasp how to do it themselves.

That's why people keep asking the same questions even though the answers are in the archives. It's not enough to read about solutions to other people's problems. They have a good grasp of all the factors in their own situation so they want to see how the unschooling bits fit into it.

Social interactions are incredibly complex! And they're difficult.

If a one child has something another child wants, it's like there's a huge chasm between them. There's a quick easy bridge across that is "Punch him". But they're not allowed to use it. And the path that gets them around the chasm is complex. They often get lost without ever reaching the other side. So it's frustrating that the solution they know how to work -- physical means -- is right there and easy but Mom insists they figure out the other way that usually doesn't work ;-)

They need someone to walk with them. Leading where they need mom to lead. Trying things out for themselves as they want to.

Sandra Dodd has several good pages on siblings:

http://sandradodd.com/siblings

One in particular was a simple series of steps to help kids think through options before resorting to hitting:

http://sandradodd.com/peace/fighting

Joyce






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joyce Fetteroll

On Apr 3, 2012, at 8:10 PM, messy_boys wrote:

> I was wondering if you all could give me some more help on this.
> Since reading this earlier, I see how true it is...and that they come to
> me over every little thing.

Have you listened to Sandra Dodd's Parenting Peacefully audio:

http://sandradodd.com/parentingpeacefully

The whole page is good but the audio is down at the bottom. If you're computer savvy you can load it onto a CD and play it in the car. My daughter actually enjoyed hearing it.

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

BRIAN POLIKOWSKY

>This is just from the last five minutes, I swear. They are so used to me taking care of it, or just screaming at each other...<<



I am going to make a point and maybe it is not the case of the mom above but it may be the case for others new to unschooling.
I am making this point because I have seen it and I have seen it in person and it does not work and the results are not pretty and have nothing to do with unschooling and being a mindful parent.

Unschooling is not letting children take care of themselves
or work out things alone or without help and guidance, 
it is not letting them do whatever they want, 
it is not about freedom,
it is not about only saying yes ,
it is not about letting them figure out things by themselves,
it is not child-led learning.

Unschooling takes more,
more presence,
more guidance,
more attention,
more mindfulness,
more connection,
more thinking and questioning,
more choices and better choices.

There are some people that come to unschooling because they read blogs or ideas of families having fun and going about doing fun things
and not being bog down by a curriculum or rules and control.
They may read a little and think all they have to do is not have rules ,
not have curriculum,
not have bedimes,
not have limits in TV, Computers and food.

What they are not reading is all the things an unschooling parent IS doing.
They are sitting and playing computer games with their children, they are
present, attentive , connected, facilitating, guiding,  preventing,
strewing, sharing, discovering together, learning right along,
 creating a learning environment, interested and interesting.


So if you are new to unschooling  Sandra has a good suggestion:
Read a little, try a little, wait a while, watch.

It takes a time to get it. I have been reading and applying unschooling in my home for almost 8 years and I am still getting it.
It takes time to deschool. Most of us has a minimum  of 13 years of schooling and some way more.
Ask questions and just sit on the answers, re read them, think about them, read them again, try them, wait a while and watch!


So all this to say that if someone comes to usnchooling thinking that it will be  just sitting there while the kids fend for themselves
and it is a piece of cake think again!
That is not to say it is not wonderful and yes easier and more peaceful, but not in the way many think it is.


 
Alex Polikowsky

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Schuyler

Oh, beautiful!

I want to pull this out of Alex's fabulous post:


>>So all this to say that if someone comes to usnchooling thinking that it will be  just sitting there while the kids fend for themselves
and it is a piece of cake think again!
That is not to say it is not wonderful and yes easier and more peaceful, but not in the way many think it is.<<

The "not in the way many think it is" is really pivotal to me. Radical unschooling, has been, and remains, so much about my perspective. Someone posted on facebook the other day something about having your ideal life. I thought about it, I thought about what my ideal life has been at different points of my life and how much my life now so completely surpasses all ideals I may have had. In part that's because I didn't have a picture of what I could have. My images of what being a stay at home mother, being a homeschooling parent, being a housewife were didn't include anything like what I have now. I had no idea the level of joy that I could achieve simply by sitting next to my son while he plays a first person shooter in a team death match round on his computer. Or the pleasure that I could achieve by staying up late so that Linnaea and I could watch more of the Vlog Brothers together. Or how often it is incredibly fulfilling to push beyond what I thought
was my limits of patience and discover that I am still feeling calm and patient and yes, I can see another way to make this or that thing happen. Who knew that a life of small joys and lots of work would be overwhelmingly happy? 

Schuyler

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messy_boys

--- In [email protected], Jenna Brotherton <jenna.brotherton@...> wrote:
>>One very important factor, in relation to possession of items, is for all children to have their own property.<<

This is definitely something that would help me. In the past, I have often just acted as if everything was up for grabs...but at the same time, I had MY stuff that was not to be played with or that I would be upset over if it ended up broken. I have just started doing this with the kids and their stuff, giving them the option of saying "no." I guess it's kind of been a communist dictatorship around here...not good.

>>Another great way to juggle items like the computer/iPad/tv is setting mutually-agreed time limits. If everyone agrees that you can only use the item for half an hour before passing it to the next person, it's not a rule being created by you.<<

This is great and I was even thinking maybe a sign up sheet by hour that I could set next to the computer. Hopefully we will someday have more than one that we can use, but until then I need to get them involved in finding a solution that everyone can live with.

>>If my son freaks out, as he sometimes does, I will offer him support and recognition of why he's so upset, but I won't physically remove the item from the other child.<<

This is a real problem area with my 7 yo. When my 13 yo says no about the ipad, I say, "I'm sorry, maybe you can play it later" and trying to help him find other things to do, but he just won't have it. He goes on and on and on, whining, crying, following me around...what is a good way to handle that, because eventually I get angry and yell. ???

Thanks so much!!!
Kristie

messy_boys

Wow, Schuyler, thank you!!! A light bulb came on after reading your response...that homeschooling (and unschooling in this case) is about RELATIONSHIPS. !!! At least for me it is, and I was really losing sight of that and letting less important things cloud my mind.

--- In [email protected], Schuyler <s.waynforth@...> wrote:
>> Goodness, is the 4 year old passing down the violence the 5 year old did to him. That's kind of fascinating.<<

Yes, this is clearly what's happening. Every time the 4 yo gets upset he goes and hits his little sister or does something to upset her.

>> You said you have 6 children. Looking through the e-mails I tally ages of 13, 10, 7, 5, 4, 2. That's young children who need lots of care. I understand not fixing their problems, but I don't think Joyce was suggesting that you not take care of them. With such young children you being nearer to hand is a hard one to avoid.<<

I totally understand that they need me, and I'm not trying to avoid that responsibility...it's just so loud and constant (it seems like the day is just one long scream/fight/mess festival) and I am struggling to not go over the cliff stress-wise. Thankfully, you all have giving me lots of great perspective and ideas.

>>Set up things so that they are easier to access. Look at all the resources you have to hand and see what you can utilise.<<

I will definitely be looking at this more!

>>Being proactive won't make them not fight, it won't cause peace to descend upon your house, but it will help to make the moments not so frequent, not so acute.<<

This is what I'm aiming for. It's stressful, not just for me, but for them, too...

>>Being a mom is a pretty fabulous thing. Let that fill you up so that in your low moments you can lean on<<


THANK YOU - that is really what I needed to hear.

Kristie

Schuyler

>>>Another great way to juggle items like the computer/iPad/tv is setting mutually-agreed time limits. If everyone agrees that you can only use the item for half an hour before passing it to the next person, it's not a rule being created by you.<<

>This is great and I was even thinking maybe a sign up sheet by hour that I could set next to the computer. Hopefully we will someday have more than one that we can use, but until >then I need to get them involved in finding a solution that everyone can live with.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
One problem with a time sheet, or with any time restrictions is that it can produce a greater sense of lack and need than might have existed otherwise. As a stop gap solution it may not be terrible, but it isn't going to much other than produce irritation at the moment of transition. If someone isn't done when their time slot is over, they are much more likely to get grouchy about giving it up, and the incoming person is going to be irritated at any delay. It may also make the focus on the computer greater than it already is. By controlling access in those ways every minute on the computer becomes more precious.

If time slots are the best option at this point, make sure that there is a buffer and that you are there to help negotiate the hand off. Make sure that it isn't an abrupt change of person using the computer, that there is a warning pre-handoff to try and get to a save point or a natural break point in the game, and that the point at which one person leaves can be enlarged to allow them to finish whatever it is that needs finishing. And work with a great sense of urgency to up the number of computers in your house. If you are local to a university, give them a call and see what they do with their old computers, or a school, or your local government offices. Look for hand-me-alongs. 
Also, if they agree to one thing in a calm moment, don't throw that in their faces in a tense moment. What looks good in theory to a 4 year old or a 5 year old or a 7 year old or even a 10 year old may be difficult for them to stick to in practice. Be generous and kind with their inability to imagine what something will play out like in real life. And re-examine what works and what doesn't and change things as needed.

++++++++++++++++++
>>>If my son freaks out, as he sometimes does, I will offer him support and recognition of why he's so upset, but I won't physically remove the item from the other child.<<

>This is a real problem area with my 7 yo. When my 13 yo says no about the ipad, I say, "I'm sorry, maybe you can play it later" and trying to help him find other things to do, but he >just won't have it. He goes on and on and on, whining, crying, following me around...what is a good way to handle that, because eventually I get angry and yell. ???
++++++++++++++++++++Don't fix it. It isn't fixable. It isn't something that you can explain in words so that he'll understand. Say I'm sorry and mean it. Don't walk away from him. Turn to him. Be with him. Let him be upset
because he can't do what he really wants to do. It's totally legitimate
to be upset because you can't do what you want to do. Recognise that. Maybe talk about how fabulous it would be if he had his own ipad. Talk about what games he would play if he could just play it when he wanted. Maybe you could talk about what games he would build to play if he had his own ipad. Just talking may help him to come to terms with his frustration. It may not. But spend the time with him. Don't make him chase you to get his needs heard.

Schuyler




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Jenna Brotherton

"This is a real problem area with my 7 yo. When my 13 yo says no about the ipad, I say, "I'm sorry, maybe you can play it later" and trying to help him find other things to do, but he just won't have it. He goes on and on and on, whining, crying, following me around...what is a good way to handle that, because eventually I get angry and yell. ???

I would try the time-limits - schedule a family meeting with everyone present ASAP, and flesh it out.

But something SUPER important to recognize here, and you might already realize it, is that if YOU lose your temper and yell, that's YOUR issue - it doesn't belong to your child. Yes, creating a more harmonious environment will probably make it easier for you to control yourself, but it's your problem to own.

And I'm right there with you, we all have our bad days. But it takes a lot of awareness and a lot of effort on my part to not project my lack of control onto my child. And if I yell or act in any way inappropriately towards my child (or my husband!), then I make sure I apologize and try to make amends as soon as I am able. This is modeling for our children - it's okay to get angry/upset/etc, but our feelings are ours to own and it's never okay to take it out on someone else.

Have a family meeting. Explain your concerns and how the atmosphere is making you feel. Suggest time-limits, but also open the floor to the children - you never know, they may have an even better idea.

Your family is in this together. :)

Sent from my iPhone
Ph: 0457 316 258

BRIAN POLIKOWSKY

"This is a real problem area with my 7 yo. When my 13 yo says no about the ipad, I say, "I'm sorry, maybe you can play it later" and trying to help him find other things to do, but he just won't have it. He goes on and on and on, whining, crying, following me around...what is a good way to handle that, because eventually I get angry and yell. ???


I would try the time-limits - schedule a family meeting with everyone present ASAP, and flesh it out.
-==-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-


But doesn't the Ipad belong to the 13 year old?|
That is what I remember reading. If someone set limits of how long I could use *my* stuff so I had to let others use it too I would be really really upset.
It is his Ipad. He can choose to lend to his brother or not.
Maybe the 7 yo can get and Ipad touch to use it?
A cheap laptop ( I see really good ones for $200 on Craiglist all the time.
And keep in mind that the Kindle Fire does games and Apps too  and it under 200!!

 I have bought 2 Iphones 3GS for one cent each ( yes once cent) and my son used his as an I pod touch
YOu can talk to the 13 year old and it seems like he does let his brother play and that is really nice but in the end it is his Ipad.


Alex Polikowsky

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Joyce Fetteroll

On Apr 5, 2012, at 11:37 AM, BRIAN POLIKOWSKY wrote:

> Maybe the 7 yo can get and Ipad touch to use it?
> A cheap laptop ( I see really good ones for $200 on Craiglist all the time.

First generation iPads are a bit over $200 on eBay. The only noticeable thing it doesn't have is a camera.

Joyce

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messy_boys

--- In [email protected], BRIAN POLIKOWSKY <polykowholsteins@...> wrote:
>> So all this to say that if someone comes to usnchooling thinking that it will be  just sitting there while the kids fend for themselves
and it is a piece of cake think again! That is not to say it is not wonderful and yes easier and more peaceful, but not in the way many think it is.<<


I really do understand this. But while we're deschooling...it kind of is doing nothing, right? I mean, it's just resting, recovering, spending time together and giving that love of learning a chance to come back...am I right?

And it seems that as the stress and negativity of our previous schooling experience lessens...unschooling just naturally takes over? We find our curiosity again. It's still time and effort, of course, but not in the way it was before. There's purpose and motivation to our learning. And our family will be closer, stronger and more peaceful.

Am I right?

Thanks,
Kristie