tv and deschooling
hertzlerjs
We started unschooling last October after my son's first month in the second grade. We've been de-schooling since then. My son spends the majority of his time at home watching tv, which I know is not uncommon for deschooling--especially in families that used to have limits on tv. In theory I've been able to see this as all part of the process, and he has been happy going on outings and is now taking karate lessons. So he is showing gradual interest in other activities. Although last week after watching tv all day he was reluctant to give up an hour of tv to go to karate.
My concern is that it seems like (and others in his life concur) that he is becoming less and less socially interactive. Concerned family members are beginning to ask if he has ADD or if he is autistic. I have always likened his personality to the "absentminded professor" because he seems lost in his mind much of the time and yet comes out with some very insightful comments. Also when he was in kindergarten he was tested and diagnosed with a speech issue called "cluttering." The woman to tested him later told me that he is extremely intelligent (he was correctly answering questions that 4th graders in her gifted program couldn't answer) yet he has a hard time getting the language out to communicate his ideas.
My sister-in-law wonders if so much tv is causing him to become more anti-social and fixated on his internal world of his mind. When he is not watching tv, he is usually running up and down the hall telling himself stories. If there is reason to interrupt this running/story-telling, it takes a great deal of work to get his attention.
An aunt suggested a diet change for him--that taking him off gluten, dairy and processed foods often helps with ADD or Autism symptoms. Given that all his favorite foods fit into those three categories, this idea seems overwhelming.
Anyway given that I know of no one else who unschools, I thought it might be helpful to hear from the unschooling perspective. Has anyone had a similar situation? Any suggestions on what more I might offer him?
My concern is that it seems like (and others in his life concur) that he is becoming less and less socially interactive. Concerned family members are beginning to ask if he has ADD or if he is autistic. I have always likened his personality to the "absentminded professor" because he seems lost in his mind much of the time and yet comes out with some very insightful comments. Also when he was in kindergarten he was tested and diagnosed with a speech issue called "cluttering." The woman to tested him later told me that he is extremely intelligent (he was correctly answering questions that 4th graders in her gifted program couldn't answer) yet he has a hard time getting the language out to communicate his ideas.
My sister-in-law wonders if so much tv is causing him to become more anti-social and fixated on his internal world of his mind. When he is not watching tv, he is usually running up and down the hall telling himself stories. If there is reason to interrupt this running/story-telling, it takes a great deal of work to get his attention.
An aunt suggested a diet change for him--that taking him off gluten, dairy and processed foods often helps with ADD or Autism symptoms. Given that all his favorite foods fit into those three categories, this idea seems overwhelming.
Anyway given that I know of no one else who unschools, I thought it might be helpful to hear from the unschooling perspective. Has anyone had a similar situation? Any suggestions on what more I might offer him?
Sacha Davis
> My sister-in-law wonders if so much tv is causing him to become moreJust responding to this from your SIL. Would she say the same thing if he
> anti-social and fixated on his internal world of his mind.
was reading all day and then those stories were catching his imagination?
I was/am an avid reader and TV watcher and sometimes even now my mind is
filled with all the stories I absorb. Out of this I write and think about
character and plot. And I can entertain myself quite easily on my bus
ride home. If your son's head is filled with stories finding a way for
him to tell them might be beneficial.
My theory in general is to give all things at least a year. New baby -
give it a year. New sibling - give it a year. New job - give it a year.
Taking limits off TV - give it at least a year. Deschooling - give it a
year, give it longer, give it as long as it takes.
Hope that helps. Haters gonna hate, so if you can ignore the remarks....
S.
Meredith
"hertzlerjs" <jshertzler@...> wrote:
Sounds to me like the tv is sparking his imagination - that's fantastic! When we first got a satellite dish Mo went through a long period of watching a lot of tv and drawing - and drawing and drawing and drawing! It was like the tv set her mind on fire and all at once she was full of images. Pretty cool. Nowadays she spends a lot of time jumping on the trampoline telling herself stories. Some of those she'll write down or draw as comics, or program into short animations, but not all. There are too many stories to get all of them down, and many are variations - fan stories, if you like, where she'll take a character from a tv show or movie or game or book or song (any character from anywhere at all) and tell a story around that person.
We try to plan outings around Mo's routines. If she's in busy project-mode, getting her out the door is going to be rough. Same if she's jumping on the trampoline, or in the middle of a movie. She doesn't like to stop in the middle of things. She can, but she doesn't like it.
It might help to think of your son in terms of having a very long attention span. When other adults complain that he's too focused, shift the direction of the conversation that way - yes, he has a Fantastic attention span!
Are you hanging out with him? Are there plenty of other things to do in the same room as the tv? As long as he has lots of other interesting options, I wouldn't worry about the tv. He's finding something wonderful and stimulating about it, and that's a good thing.
---Meredith
>When he is not watching tv, he is usually running up and down the hall telling himself stories.**************
Sounds to me like the tv is sparking his imagination - that's fantastic! When we first got a satellite dish Mo went through a long period of watching a lot of tv and drawing - and drawing and drawing and drawing! It was like the tv set her mind on fire and all at once she was full of images. Pretty cool. Nowadays she spends a lot of time jumping on the trampoline telling herself stories. Some of those she'll write down or draw as comics, or program into short animations, but not all. There are too many stories to get all of them down, and many are variations - fan stories, if you like, where she'll take a character from a tv show or movie or game or book or song (any character from anywhere at all) and tell a story around that person.
>>If there is reason to interrupt this running/story-telling, it takes a great deal of work to get his attention.*****************
We try to plan outings around Mo's routines. If she's in busy project-mode, getting her out the door is going to be rough. Same if she's jumping on the trampoline, or in the middle of a movie. She doesn't like to stop in the middle of things. She can, but she doesn't like it.
It might help to think of your son in terms of having a very long attention span. When other adults complain that he's too focused, shift the direction of the conversation that way - yes, he has a Fantastic attention span!
Are you hanging out with him? Are there plenty of other things to do in the same room as the tv? As long as he has lots of other interesting options, I wouldn't worry about the tv. He's finding something wonderful and stimulating about it, and that's a good thing.
---Meredith
Sylvia Woodman
-- Although last week after watching tv all day he was reluctant to give
up an hour of tv to go to karate.--
How long has he been taking Karate? Is his interest waning? Are you
feeling pressured because money has already been spent for a set period of
time? My son has been taking Karate and I know his current school likes us
to make a 6 month commitment. That may actually be too long for some kids
to stay interested.
When he is telling himself stories is he talking out loud? Can you capture
the stories on video or audio? This strikes me as something you might want
to preserve if possible.
Sylvia (Gabriella 7 and Harry 5)
up an hour of tv to go to karate.--
How long has he been taking Karate? Is his interest waning? Are you
feeling pressured because money has already been spent for a set period of
time? My son has been taking Karate and I know his current school likes us
to make a 6 month commitment. That may actually be too long for some kids
to stay interested.
When he is telling himself stories is he talking out loud? Can you capture
the stories on video or audio? This strikes me as something you might want
to preserve if possible.
Sylvia (Gabriella 7 and Harry 5)
On Sun, Mar 25, 2012 at 1:57 PM, hertzlerjs <jshertzler@...>wrote:
> **
>
>
> We started unschooling last October after my son's first month in the
> second grade. We've been de-schooling since then. My son spends the
> majority of his time at home watching tv, which I know is not uncommon for
> deschooling--especially in families that used to have limits on tv. In
> theory I've been able to see this as all part of the process, and he has
> been happy going on outings and is now taking karate lessons. So he is
> showing gradual interest in other activities. Although last week after
> watching tv all day he was reluctant to give up an hour of tv to go to
> karate.
>
> My concern is that it seems like (and others in his life concur) that he
> is becoming less and less socially interactive. Concerned family members
> are beginning to ask if he has ADD or if he is autistic. I have always
> likened his personality to the "absentminded professor" because he seems
> lost in his mind much of the time and yet comes out with some very
> insightful comments. Also when he was in kindergarten he was tested and
> diagnosed with a speech issue called "cluttering." The woman to tested him
> later told me that he is extremely intelligent (he was correctly answering
> questions that 4th graders in her gifted program couldn't answer) yet he
> has a hard time getting the language out to communicate his ideas.
>
> My sister-in-law wonders if so much tv is causing him to become more
> anti-social and fixated on his internal world of his mind. When he is not
> watching tv, he is usually running up and down the hall telling himself
> stories. If there is reason to interrupt this running/story-telling, it
> takes a great deal of work to get his attention.
>
> An aunt suggested a diet change for him--that taking him off gluten, dairy
> and processed foods often helps with ADD or Autism symptoms. Given that all
> his favorite foods fit into those three categories, this idea seems
> overwhelming.
>
> Anyway given that I know of no one else who unschools, I thought it might
> be helpful to hear from the unschooling perspective. Has anyone had a
> similar situation? Any suggestions on what more I might offer him?
>
>
>
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Schuyler
>> last week after watching tv all day he was reluctant to give up an hour of tv to go to karate.<<If he is still genuinely interested in going to karate, get something like tivo and record the programmes he's interested in to watch later. Work to meet his desire to watch television. Don't work to distract him from it. Sit with him and watch what he's watching. Become an active partner in his engagement with the television. If he likes a specific kind of show, look for more like it. Or just talk with him about what he is watching. Help him to get what he wants from television by making it easier for him to access it.
>>In theory I've been able to see this as all part of the process, and he has been happy going on outings and is now taking karate lessons. So he is showing gradual interest in other activities<<Which underscores how much you are holding your breath until he stops watching too much television. What if he never does? What if he always loves visual narratives? Will you spend your time wringing your hands behind the chair where he sits waiting for him to come to some satiation point so that you can move forward with what you believe his childhood ought to be?
>>When he is not watching tv, he is usually running up and down the hall telling himself stories.<<Simon did this. He did this for a long, long time. We called it his "run around game" and when we looked for houses to rent making sure that there was space for him to run through his stories was a criteria.
Simon was taking in so much from television and later from videos he'd watch on youtube, that he needed to process it, to make it his own. When he'd tell me a story that he'd been working on, it was a kind of fan-fiction with Simon cast as a central character. He was weaving a story around himself, and acting it out, processing it in a very physical way. I imagine that he needed the movement, he needed it to be a physical thing, he was so excited by what he was seeing.
When I went and saw Jackie Chan movies with friends, we would leave the cinema leaping and bounding around whatever space was there. We were so excited by his physicalness, his story-telling that we needed to own it in our own bodies. Or something. It left us with adrenaline to spend. I imagine that what Simon does is something similar. The story, the action, excites him in a very physical way and so he processed his relationship with the story in a physical way.
>> If there is reason to interrupt this running/story-telling, it takes a great deal of work to get his attention.<<Try not to find reasons to interrupt him. Try to protect his processing time as much as you can. If there is a real and unavoidable reason, than get on with it, but otherwise, see this as a very important part of his person and let him be himself.
>>Concerned family members are beginning to ask if he has ADD or if he is autistic. <<Your aunt and your sister-in-law and other family members seem to be trying to help you solve something that you've mentioned in a concerned way to them. Don't tell them things that get them to give you advice. If their wisdom comes unsolicited, thank them for their concern and tell them that you are going to try this way for a year and see how things go and then change the subject, move the conversation on to something else. If they continue to press, if they really want to "fix" your son, then try not to spend quite so much time with them for a while, at least until the worry voices in your own head are relatively quiet. Don't let them dissuade you from the belief that your son doesn't need fixing. Protect him from such worries by not working to encourage them.
Schuyler
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Joyce Fetteroll
On Mar 25, 2012, at 1:57 PM, hertzlerjs wrote:
People who can't cope with what's going on in their life do withdraw. It's a coping mechanism. If life is really really bad, they might have good reasons for not coming out of their withdrawal.
But people who need to process thoughts -- such as writers and other artists and scientists -- also find ways to tune out the physical world so their thoughts aren't interrupted.
Many people use TV to destress from a stressful day. Unschooling kids watch TV because it's fun.
Many of us longtime unschoolers were big readers as kids. And we found it surprising that most of our kids weren't. After some discussion we realized it was because we withdrew into the fantasy world of books as a way to withdraw from the stress of life. Our kids didn't have that so didn't need books for that. They read when they wanted to read. They watched TV when they wanted to watch TV.
Is his life outside his head a happy one? Or filled with problems and stresses he's powerless to change?
Happiness is a much better indicator of whole and healthy than "normal" behavior.
Joyce
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> My sister-in-law wonders if so much tv is causing himWe've been sort of trained by our dependence on experts to see anything outside of the norm as a symptom of a problem rather than looking for reasons for it.
> to become more anti-social and fixated on his internal
> world of his mind. When he is not watching tv, he is
> usually running up and down the hall telling himself stories.
People who can't cope with what's going on in their life do withdraw. It's a coping mechanism. If life is really really bad, they might have good reasons for not coming out of their withdrawal.
But people who need to process thoughts -- such as writers and other artists and scientists -- also find ways to tune out the physical world so their thoughts aren't interrupted.
Many people use TV to destress from a stressful day. Unschooling kids watch TV because it's fun.
Many of us longtime unschoolers were big readers as kids. And we found it surprising that most of our kids weren't. After some discussion we realized it was because we withdrew into the fantasy world of books as a way to withdraw from the stress of life. Our kids didn't have that so didn't need books for that. They read when they wanted to read. They watched TV when they wanted to watch TV.
Is his life outside his head a happy one? Or filled with problems and stresses he's powerless to change?
Happiness is a much better indicator of whole and healthy than "normal" behavior.
Joyce
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Janelle Hertzler
Thank you all for your helpful and reassuring comments. I feel reassured that I am on the right track and that I do not need to let the comments and concerns of family take me away from the way we want to live our lives. Being the "responsible first-born" is sometimes hard to get over. Which also makes it hard for me to sit and watch cartoons with him as much as I should. I have seen how much benefit, creativity and "learning" he has gotten from his hours of tv. It's just that I need to deschool myself and tell myself that I am not wasting my time with shows that I'm not really personally interested in. Rather I am spending time being with my son and nothing can replace that. Thanks again.
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Joyce Fetteroll
On Mar 26, 2012, at 11:02 AM, Janelle Hertzler wrote:
It's real learning. The kind in school is "learning". But it *is* different from the school learning. They don't look at all alike. What he's doing is making rich connections between ideas rather than memorizing someone else's connections. It takes longer to see signs that something profound is happening. It takes paths that don't look like they're headed toward "competent adult" or "college". But they're far more valuable than the paths handed to kids without the connections or experience to make them meaningful.
Joyce
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> I have seen how much benefit, creativity and "learning" he has gotten from his hours of tv.Part of your deschooling can be to not put learning from tv in quotes! :-)
It's real learning. The kind in school is "learning". But it *is* different from the school learning. They don't look at all alike. What he's doing is making rich connections between ideas rather than memorizing someone else's connections. It takes longer to see signs that something profound is happening. It takes paths that don't look like they're headed toward "competent adult" or "college". But they're far more valuable than the paths handed to kids without the connections or experience to make them meaningful.
Joyce
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Joyce Fetteroll
On Mar 26, 2012, at 11:02 AM, Janelle Hertzler wrote:
Joyce
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> I am not wasting my time with shows that I'm not really personally interested in.It can make it easier to enjoy them yourself if you shift your focus to his enjoyment. Appreciate that he has found things he loves. Find out more about the show *and* about him by asking what he likes, asking him to share his favorite parts and characters.
Joyce
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diana lea jenner
~diana jenner
On Mar 26, 2012 8:07 AM, "Janelle Hertzler" <jshertzler@...>
wrote:
On Mar 26, 2012 8:07 AM, "Janelle Hertzler" <jshertzler@...>
wrote:
> **[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
> Thank you all for your helpful and reassuring comments. I feel reassured
> that I am on the right track and that I do not need to let the comments and
> concerns of family take me away from the way we want to live our lives.
> Being the "responsible first-born" is sometimes hard to get over. Which
> also makes it hard for me to sit and watch cartoons with him as much as I
> should. I have seen how much benefit, creativity and "learning" he has
> gotten from his hours of tv. It's just that I need to deschool myself and
> tell myself that I am not wasting my time with shows that I'm not really
> personally interested in. Rather I am spending time being with my son and
> nothing can replace that. Thanks again.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
Meredith
Sylvia Woodman <sylvia057@...> wrote:
---Meredith
>his current school likes usIt's too long for some adults to stay interested! Most adult clubs and classes expect around a 50% attrition rate for anything longer than 6 weeks!
> to make a 6 month commitment. That may actually be too long for some kids
> to stay interested.
>Can you captureThat's a good idea if He's interested - Mo uses her time on the trampoline to kind of daydream aloud or brainstorm ideas for stories, so she doesn't like an audience. It's okay if it's all personal!
> the stories on video or audio?
---Meredith
lindaguitar
--- In [email protected], Janelle Hertzler <jshertzler@...> wrote:
I also encouraged the kids to watch TV shows and movies with me that *I* liked - if it was something that I thought was appropriate for children. We watched the various Star Trek series and Stargate and other sci-fi shows together. We watched family shows like Home Improvement, with Tim Allen, and old reruns of the Cosby Show and Roseanne. Sometimes we watched The Simpsons. We also all enjoyed watching science and nature shows. When my kids were a little older, we loved watching Futurama together. I also made a point of getting some of the older movies that were my childhood favorites on video or DVD, to watch with my kids. (I also read them all of my favorite childhood books, over the years.)
If there are shows that your child likes to watch that you don't enjoy, but that you can tolerate, is there something you can do in the same room while he watches, so that you're aware of what the show is about and can talk to him about it, but also do something for yourself at the same time?
If your son likes a certain show that you really can't stand - well, just speaking for myself, I never stayed in the room if my kids were watching something I thought was either really stupid or very gross/disgusting. If I saw them watching something that I thought was promoting character traits that I thought were contrary to my values (traits like meanness, selfishness, violence, jealousy, obsession with looks and other superficial things), I would start a discussion about those shows and characters afterwards. Like "What would you have done in that situation?", or "What do you think that person could have done that would have made the situation turn out better, or avoided that bad situation?"
The same is true now, when I babysit. Some of the kids I babysit are allowed to watch TV or YouTube videos. If they choose to watch a show or video I like, I watch it with them. If they choose a show I don't like, I tend to go into another room.
But, despite all the anti-TV propaganda, I have never thought of watching TV as a waste of time - except when I watch TV shows that I don;t really enjoy, simply as an excuse to procrastinate. (These days, I use the internet when I'm procrastinating, putting off doing housework. LOL!)
Linda
>I don't know that you need to make it into a "should" - which is likely to make you feel either guilty for not doing it or obligated to do something you dislike doing. Is there at least one cartoon show that he watches that you also enjoy? I used to watch the children's shows that *I* also liked, with my kids. Like Rugrats, The Wild Thornberries, The Fairly Oddparents, Reading Rainbow, Blues Clues, and Zoom, to name a few.
> ... Being the "responsible first-born" is sometimes hard to get
> over. Which also makes it hard for me to sit and watch cartoons
> with him as much as I should.
I also encouraged the kids to watch TV shows and movies with me that *I* liked - if it was something that I thought was appropriate for children. We watched the various Star Trek series and Stargate and other sci-fi shows together. We watched family shows like Home Improvement, with Tim Allen, and old reruns of the Cosby Show and Roseanne. Sometimes we watched The Simpsons. We also all enjoyed watching science and nature shows. When my kids were a little older, we loved watching Futurama together. I also made a point of getting some of the older movies that were my childhood favorites on video or DVD, to watch with my kids. (I also read them all of my favorite childhood books, over the years.)
If there are shows that your child likes to watch that you don't enjoy, but that you can tolerate, is there something you can do in the same room while he watches, so that you're aware of what the show is about and can talk to him about it, but also do something for yourself at the same time?
If your son likes a certain show that you really can't stand - well, just speaking for myself, I never stayed in the room if my kids were watching something I thought was either really stupid or very gross/disgusting. If I saw them watching something that I thought was promoting character traits that I thought were contrary to my values (traits like meanness, selfishness, violence, jealousy, obsession with looks and other superficial things), I would start a discussion about those shows and characters afterwards. Like "What would you have done in that situation?", or "What do you think that person could have done that would have made the situation turn out better, or avoided that bad situation?"
The same is true now, when I babysit. Some of the kids I babysit are allowed to watch TV or YouTube videos. If they choose to watch a show or video I like, I watch it with them. If they choose a show I don't like, I tend to go into another room.
But, despite all the anti-TV propaganda, I have never thought of watching TV as a waste of time - except when I watch TV shows that I don;t really enjoy, simply as an excuse to procrastinate. (These days, I use the internet when I'm procrastinating, putting off doing housework. LOL!)
Linda
odiniella
--- In [email protected], Janelle Hertzler
<jshertzler@...> wrote:
It's just that I need to deschool myself and tell myself that I am not
wasting my time with shows that I'm not really personally interested in.
Rather I am spending time being with my son and nothing can replace
that. Thanks again.
I think my favorite advice I heard when I first tried unschooling was to
consider deschooling *myself.* The idea of deschooling one month for
every year meant for me, not just my kids. When I stopped interpreting
their experiences as possible academic values, we really took off.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
<jshertzler@...> wrote:
It's just that I need to deschool myself and tell myself that I am not
wasting my time with shows that I'm not really personally interested in.
Rather I am spending time being with my son and nothing can replace
that. Thanks again.
I think my favorite advice I heard when I first tried unschooling was to
consider deschooling *myself.* The idea of deschooling one month for
every year meant for me, not just my kids. When I stopped interpreting
their experiences as possible academic values, we really took off.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Schuyler
>>It's just that I need to deschool myself and tell myself that I am notwasting my time with shows that I'm not really personally interested in.
Rather I am spending time being with my son and nothing can replace
that. Thanks again.<<
Simon and Linnaea liking something tends to add value to it. It does it for David as well. I like watching them laugh and be interested at least as much as I like watching the show. I also like finding the value in what they are watching. Seeing what it is that appeals. Linnaea's been watching Toddlers and Tiaras lately and I spent a couple of hours watching episodes with her on youtube the other night. It's a show that makes me cringe, and she was watching it, in part, to cringe. She was fascinated by the parents pushing their own interests on the children. And by the children who were shining because they were the driving participants in the beauty pageants. If I hadn't watched the show with her, watched her watching the show and had judged the show as outside of my own tolerance, I wouldn't have had such a good time, or known what she was deriving--at least in some part--from her time spent watching it.
There are shows I struggle to watch. I have a really hard time with Fawlty Towers or with Seinfeld or with Borat or Peep Show. I have a hard time with people being set up or setting themselves up to fail, it hurts me to watch them. Not that I don't laugh, not that I don't have moments of enjoying them and not that I don't understand why they are enjoyable. Just that I want so much for the lives on the show to be good and happy and better that I spend too much of the time unhappy for the characters. But I've watched all of those shows and found ways to enjoy them. Mostly I watch the watchers, however. Mostly I relish their enjoyment. And I don't need to talk about what makes it hard for me, or my own morality, or my own difficulty with people who continue to reside in misery. I don't need to share my misery with those who are enjoying the show.
Schuyler
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Joyce Fetteroll
On Mar 27, 2012, at 6:32 AM, Schuyler wrote:
And it's okay not to like everything. But first priority is building up a good solid foundation of appreciating their enjoyment. Which may spark your enjoyment. And *then* you can say "Not my thing," to the ones you really can't get. And you can do things in the same room while the kids are watching.
Joyce
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> or with BoratI had the same experience with Borat. I laughed while watching but felt yucky later.
And it's okay not to like everything. But first priority is building up a good solid foundation of appreciating their enjoyment. Which may spark your enjoyment. And *then* you can say "Not my thing," to the ones you really can't get. And you can do things in the same room while the kids are watching.
Joyce
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[email protected]
It's not that you have to sit right there watching SpongeBob (not that there's anything wrong with that :) ). I don't want to watch most of what my kids are watching.
I don't want to watch sports with DH. I don't care about brackets, for instance. Anyone who does, great. I barely know what they are. But this past week, I think, he's been following basketball teams and tracking brackets and all that. So I pay enough attention to cheer him on and he gets to enjoy it a bit more by sharing what he is doing.
I don't want to watch Nick Junior with our 5-yo nephew. But he likes it and it's on and I can do my own things and be aware enough to answer a question or comment if he wants to share. I think maybe it also shows him that you don't have to sit glued to the TV if I can have something on in the background and be doing other things. Maybe, maybe not. (We are a TV household with one in almost every room.)
The other day he visited and was working on his electric stuff. He takes things apart. Loves it! He has now started wiring things together again. He needs some help but, after I "helped" a bit too much, I was dismissed. Told to go work on my computer. I was OK with that. :)
There's being there and participating and caring and sharing and then there's hovering and taking over or pretending to care when you don't (that shows). Dear Nephew and DH alike would rather I not hover, that I do my own thing, but that I be extremely available -- available to interact when they want to. I suppose I want the same thing -- I don't want DH underfoot but do want him to be available when I have some brilliant insight to share about the news.
So, sitting on the couch the whole time your son is watching TV -- not necessary. Being aware and available -- good things.
Nance
"It's just that I need to deschool myself and tell myself that I am not wasting my time with shows that I'm not really personally interested in."
I don't want to watch sports with DH. I don't care about brackets, for instance. Anyone who does, great. I barely know what they are. But this past week, I think, he's been following basketball teams and tracking brackets and all that. So I pay enough attention to cheer him on and he gets to enjoy it a bit more by sharing what he is doing.
I don't want to watch Nick Junior with our 5-yo nephew. But he likes it and it's on and I can do my own things and be aware enough to answer a question or comment if he wants to share. I think maybe it also shows him that you don't have to sit glued to the TV if I can have something on in the background and be doing other things. Maybe, maybe not. (We are a TV household with one in almost every room.)
The other day he visited and was working on his electric stuff. He takes things apart. Loves it! He has now started wiring things together again. He needs some help but, after I "helped" a bit too much, I was dismissed. Told to go work on my computer. I was OK with that. :)
There's being there and participating and caring and sharing and then there's hovering and taking over or pretending to care when you don't (that shows). Dear Nephew and DH alike would rather I not hover, that I do my own thing, but that I be extremely available -- available to interact when they want to. I suppose I want the same thing -- I don't want DH underfoot but do want him to be available when I have some brilliant insight to share about the news.
So, sitting on the couch the whole time your son is watching TV -- not necessary. Being aware and available -- good things.
Nance
"It's just that I need to deschool myself and tell myself that I am not wasting my time with shows that I'm not really personally interested in."
Schuyler
>>So, sitting on the couch the whole time your son is watching TV -- not necessary. Being aware and available -- good things.<<____________________________________
If television is the main thing your child is interested in, if television is what he or she is enjoying doing much of the time, being interested in it starts to look like a necessary good. When there are few opportunities to connect, making those opportunites is important, finding ways to connect is important. It isn't really connecting with someone simply to be in the same room. It is much more of a connection to be watching the shows together than to simply be available if they choose to share something with you.
Also, once you start to make the effort to become interested rather than merely feigning interest, you will find more out about what interests them. It helps to facilitate making more things available to them if you know what they are interested in, or what they are looking for in television shows, in story telling, in documentaries. And they will know that you are interested in them, in their interests, in that engagement. That is an important piece of knowledge for a child to have.
Schuyler
_
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Meredith
"lindaguitar" <lindaguitar@...> wrote:
I used to do that with Ray and found it counterproductive - he'd get annoyed and tune me out. So I haven't tried to start those kinds of conversations with Mo. Instead, I've taken some of the advice of other unschoolers and talk about tv shows and movies with my kids essentially the same way I would with a friend, rather than making a lesson of my personal values. And what I've seen with Mo is that I haven't needed to coax her to be thoughtful about what she watches. She lives in a home where thoughtfulness is a normal part of the environment.
For example, Mo loves Ed, Edd and Eddy - and I'm So not a fan of that show, but haven't said much more than "not my favorite" - she loves it, and I don't tend to put down things my friends love. About a week ago, she was re-reading the Bone anthology and noted that some of the characters are essentially the same characters as the Eds - and then made the jump that there are Other stories which use the same characters: the Fool, the Intellectual, the Con Man. I hadn't made that connection until she brought it up - I was bogged down with "ick, the Eds" and not considering them as literary archtypes. Mo notices connections and relationships, though, so it was natural for her to see the Eds as something more than just cartoon characters.
---Meredith
>If I saw them watching something that I thought was promoting character traits that I thought were contrary to my values (traits like meanness, selfishness, violence, jealousy, obsession with looks and other superficial things), I would start a discussion about those shows and characters afterwards.*******************
I used to do that with Ray and found it counterproductive - he'd get annoyed and tune me out. So I haven't tried to start those kinds of conversations with Mo. Instead, I've taken some of the advice of other unschoolers and talk about tv shows and movies with my kids essentially the same way I would with a friend, rather than making a lesson of my personal values. And what I've seen with Mo is that I haven't needed to coax her to be thoughtful about what she watches. She lives in a home where thoughtfulness is a normal part of the environment.
For example, Mo loves Ed, Edd and Eddy - and I'm So not a fan of that show, but haven't said much more than "not my favorite" - she loves it, and I don't tend to put down things my friends love. About a week ago, she was re-reading the Bone anthology and noted that some of the characters are essentially the same characters as the Eds - and then made the jump that there are Other stories which use the same characters: the Fool, the Intellectual, the Con Man. I hadn't made that connection until she brought it up - I was bogged down with "ick, the Eds" and not considering them as literary archtypes. Mo notices connections and relationships, though, so it was natural for her to see the Eds as something more than just cartoon characters.
---Meredith
[email protected]
Part of that deschooling thing -- figuring out how to relate to your child, where feigning becomes real and how you get there.
Nance
Nance
--- In [email protected], Schuyler <s.waynforth@...> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> >>So, sitting on the couch the whole time your son is watching TV -- not necessary. Being aware and available -- good things.<<
>
>
> ____________________________________
>
> If television is the main thing your child is interested in, if television is what he or she is enjoying doing much of the time, being interested in it starts to look like a necessary good. When there are few opportunities to connect, making those opportunites is important, finding ways to connect is important. It isn't really connecting with someone simply to be in the same room. It is much more of a connection to be watching the shows together than to simply be available if they choose to share something with you.
>
> Also, once you start to make the effort to become interested rather than merely feigning interest, you will find more out about what interests them. It helps to facilitate making more things available to them if you know what they are interested in, or what they are looking for in television shows, in story telling, in documentaries. And they will know that you are interested in them, in their interests, in that engagement. That is an important piece of knowledge for a child to have.
>
>
> Schuyler
>
> _
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
lindaguitar
--- In [email protected], "Meredith" <plaidpanties666@...> wrote:
My daughter is more interested in such discussions, even now. Character analysis and psychology and all that, on an adult level. And she does want me to watch some videos or episodes of shows with her that I'm not interested in, sometimes, and I do, to know what it is that she's into. But it's never anything I think is awful.
Linda
>Yeah, I think my son didn't really like it when I talked about character value issues in TV shows, when he got to a certain age. I guess it did start to seem kind of preachy, at some point. When he got to the "yeah mom, I *know*!", or "whatever", I stopped. LOL! But he had a TV in his room by then, and I didn't have to stick around and watch shows that I objected to. (Like the later seasons of Family Guy, which, in my opinion, got really gross.)
> .... I used to do that with Ray and found it counterproductive -
> he'd get annoyed and tune me out. So I haven't tried to start those
> kinds of conversations with Mo.
My daughter is more interested in such discussions, even now. Character analysis and psychology and all that, on an adult level. And she does want me to watch some videos or episodes of shows with her that I'm not interested in, sometimes, and I do, to know what it is that she's into. But it's never anything I think is awful.
Linda
catfish_friend
--- Although last week after watching tv all day he was reluctant to give up an hour of tv to go to karate. ---
The way it is described -- "watching TV all day" and "an hour of TV" -- it sounds like TV is a monolithic entity. My 5 year old (and the rest of the family!) have been officially deschooling since this past November. Carolina watches She-Ra, Dora, Crashbox, Backyardigans, Out of Egypt and Bizarre Foods. Sometimes she watches Dr. Oz. Just now, I took a photo of a beautiful tower she built while watching Crashbox and Wow Wow Wubbzy (this one is my 3 year old's show preference). I am consistently amazed by what she builds while watching (or not watching) TV.
Does your son have other things available to him near the TV?
As for concerns about being anti-social -- where is your son on the extrovert-introvert scale? I am an introvert and a loner but it took being in my 30s before I realized that was OK. School and the accompanying social environment often rewards the extroverted. I learned to act extroverted but it was exhausting. My career in film editing was a perfect fit for much of who I am and what I love. As an introvert, I spend the majority of my work time in a dark room alone. As someone who values a few close connections vs. many acquaintances, my work environment puts me in daily contact with a few working towards a project for about a year. Cutting rooms often forge intimate family-like friendships while each person spends many hours working in a solitary way. And film editing allows me to play with story, emotion, psychology, character, visuals, soundscapes and music -- things I really love spending time thinking about and playing with.
Unschooling gives you and your son the opportunity to explore his interests. What of the monolithic TV is he interested in? What shows? What characters? Why? My 5 year old pretends she's She-Ra, even while watching her show. She gets dressed for it, adds props and rides the back of the love seat as her trusty steed. Some friends I have that you might recognize have made very profitable careers pretending. And you bet their focus is prized, not a detriment to their success.
Spend more time with your son while he's watching TV. See what he's seeing if you can. My daughter's love of She-Ra has sent us out searching for the perfect pieces to pull together her costume. We have also searched online to see others' interpretations. She met a little boy at the park who loves superheroes like she does and they were in heaven playing out their favorite characters with each other.
Ceci
The way it is described -- "watching TV all day" and "an hour of TV" -- it sounds like TV is a monolithic entity. My 5 year old (and the rest of the family!) have been officially deschooling since this past November. Carolina watches She-Ra, Dora, Crashbox, Backyardigans, Out of Egypt and Bizarre Foods. Sometimes she watches Dr. Oz. Just now, I took a photo of a beautiful tower she built while watching Crashbox and Wow Wow Wubbzy (this one is my 3 year old's show preference). I am consistently amazed by what she builds while watching (or not watching) TV.
Does your son have other things available to him near the TV?
As for concerns about being anti-social -- where is your son on the extrovert-introvert scale? I am an introvert and a loner but it took being in my 30s before I realized that was OK. School and the accompanying social environment often rewards the extroverted. I learned to act extroverted but it was exhausting. My career in film editing was a perfect fit for much of who I am and what I love. As an introvert, I spend the majority of my work time in a dark room alone. As someone who values a few close connections vs. many acquaintances, my work environment puts me in daily contact with a few working towards a project for about a year. Cutting rooms often forge intimate family-like friendships while each person spends many hours working in a solitary way. And film editing allows me to play with story, emotion, psychology, character, visuals, soundscapes and music -- things I really love spending time thinking about and playing with.
Unschooling gives you and your son the opportunity to explore his interests. What of the monolithic TV is he interested in? What shows? What characters? Why? My 5 year old pretends she's She-Ra, even while watching her show. She gets dressed for it, adds props and rides the back of the love seat as her trusty steed. Some friends I have that you might recognize have made very profitable careers pretending. And you bet their focus is prized, not a detriment to their success.
Spend more time with your son while he's watching TV. See what he's seeing if you can. My daughter's love of She-Ra has sent us out searching for the perfect pieces to pull together her costume. We have also searched online to see others' interpretations. She met a little boy at the park who loves superheroes like she does and they were in heaven playing out their favorite characters with each other.
Ceci