[email protected]

We are moving from quite authoritative parenting to unschooling. Our main way of doing this so far is to say 'yes' more. I am struggling with how to handle my son. We have 5 children living at home. My son is 8. He has always reacted violently when prevented from doing what he wants. Previously we would send him to his room, shout, get angry and sometimes smack. Since saying yes more, he is responding brilliantly, becoming much happier. But still if he can't do something (a classic example would be playing on the ipad when his sister is on it) he will still get incredibly angry, shouting, swearing, stomping off and throwing things around. I understand that this is the way he needs express himself, but it is very distressing for me, and sometimes his younger sisters start crying because they're scared. How can I help him? At the moment I feel at a loss for what to do, as my ingrained reaction is to get angry and start shouting. I'm trying not to do this, but am only about 50% successful.

Many thanks for your help,

Rita

[email protected]

Well, you were doing it the other way for all of his 8 years. He knows how to do that. It will take time for him -- and you -- to learn better ways. You might talk to him about that. How the changes in your family have been going, how things in life can still be frustrating, how you might all handle that better, etc. In a calm moment. Good luck finding one! :)

Nance



--- In [email protected], "reetabix_knits@..." <reetabix_knits@...> wrote:
>
> We are moving from quite authoritative parenting to unschooling. Our main way of doing this so far is to say 'yes' more. I am struggling with how to handle my son. We have 5 children living at home. My son is 8. He has always reacted violently when prevented from doing what he wants. Previously we would send him to his room, shout, get angry and sometimes smack. Since saying yes more, he is responding brilliantly, becoming much happier. But still if he can't do something (a classic example would be playing on the ipad when his sister is on it) he will still get incredibly angry, shouting, swearing, stomping off and throwing things around. I understand that this is the way he needs express himself, but it is very distressing for me, and sometimes his younger sisters start crying because they're scared. How can I help him? At the moment I feel at a loss for what to do, as my ingrained reaction is to get angry and start shouting. I'm trying not to do this, but am only about 50% successful.
>
> Many thanks for your help,
>
> Rita
>

Meredith

"reetabix_knits@..." <reetabix_knits@...> wrote:
>Since saying yes more, he is responding brilliantly, becoming much happier.
**************

Hold onto that - it's important! As Nance mentioned, it takes time to change, for your son and for you, too. Part of what will help your son is for you to really notice the positive in him - even if for now the positive you're seeing is "well, that wasn't Nearly as bad as it could have been". I'm not saying you should praise him, but notice when he's happier, when he handles things better - and let him know you're noticing. If he's had a lot of negative feedback, it will soothe his heart to hear good things about himself. He may have gotten in the habit of thinking of himself as "the bad kid" so he'll need your help to undo that.

>>But still if he can't do something (a classic example would be playing on the ipad when his sister is on it) he will still get incredibly angry, shouting, swearing, stomping off and throwing things around.
*********************

Do what you can so the other kids don't feel the brunt of his anger. Protect them. It could help even to reassure them that the anger isn't about them, or that they are loved and cherished while he is raging. It could help to get more of the favorite household resources! If the ipad is a big deal, it could help Everyone in the family to get more than one, or to get something similar - depending on what it's being used for.

In addition to saying Yes more, look for more ways to be proactive about your son's needs. It could be that he has bigger needs than other kids in the family - for attention, for instance, or activity. If you've been giving him roughly the same kind of attention and care as you would any of your other kids, you may be doing him a disservice, leaving him "half full" as it were - and so he's needy and on edge, with less resources to deal with problems. The more you can do to "fill him up" the more resources he'll have to draw from when things go south. It may, on the outside, seem unfair to give one person more time and energy than any other, but chances are you're already giving him more time and energy in terms of dealing with the fallout of his unhappiness - and That's not fair to other members of the family, either. It ends up being kinder all around to meet his needs fully (and proactively, when at all possible!) than to always be cleaning up from his emotional messes, if you see what I mean.

---Meredith

DorothyR

Congratulations on your efforts to move toward more connectedness.
I'm not sure this is an unschooling answer per se, but my only suggestion is to start with empathy, then help him show his anger in less destructive ways. My son likes to throw dirt clods from teh garden out onto the wall outside. OR jump on bubble wrap. Or rip pages from the phone book. He has anger he expresses in shouting, and we certainly don't like it but it sure beats hitting someone, so that's self-control,right? I have to resist being authoritative also, and have slipped so many times, I am sure my oldest has soem aggression and resentment. I'ts s work in progress.
Best, Dorothy
--- In [email protected], "reetabix_knits@..." <reetabix_knits@...> wrote:
>
> We are moving from quite authoritative parenting to unschooling. Our main way of doing this so far is to say 'yes' more. I am struggling with how to handle my son. We have 5 children living at home. My son is 8. He has always reacted violently when prevented from doing what he wants. Previously we would send him to his room, shout, get angry and sometimes smack. Since saying yes more, he is responding brilliantly, becoming much happier. But still if he can't do something (a classic example would be playing on the ipad when his sister is on it) he will still get incredibly angry, shouting, swearing, stomping off and throwing things around. I understand that this is the way he needs express himself, but it is very distressing for me, and sometimes his younger sisters start crying because they're scared. How can I help him? At the moment I feel at a loss for what to do, as my ingrained reaction is to get angry and start shouting. I'm trying not to do this, but am only about 50% successful.
>
> Many thanks for your help,
>
> Rita
>

Schuyler

Work to make a better choice. 50% is better than 100%
negative interactions. See it like Zeno's paradox of Achilles and the
tortoise, while it may be an infinite distance between you and 100%
perfection, each better choice, each choice in the right direction,
while not letting you ever reach your goal, makes the distance visibly
less.


It takes a long time for someone to trust you. Particularly when you weren't
trustworthy in the past and when you aren't perfectly trustworthy in the present. And at 8 he is dealing with his own life, his own growth, his
own development of empathy and understanding of other people in a slow
way. It isn't all reaction, but it is also something that cannot be
lectured or shouted or punished into changing. It can be nurtured
through kindness and patience. You can
help him, and your other children, by keeping them fed and hydrated. By
watching for evidence of tension mounting. I can see when Simon is
moving toward frustrated and I can turn him with distractions or
something else to do or conversation or food or a drink. The earlier I
spot the tension on the rise, the easier it is for it not to happen. And the more that I do that, the less likely any of is going to lose it.


I used to feel my expression of frustration and anger as a switch that
turned on at some point in a moment. I went from being calm and even
joking to angry and I didn't know how to not flip the switch. It has
taken time on my part as well as making sure that I'm not hungry or too
tired or coming into any engagement with too many expectations. Make
sure, as much as you can, that you aren't coming into moments with your children already frayed. And work not to take his anger as evidence
that something is failing to work. He's frustrated and doesn't yet have
better tools for dealing with it. Given the list of things you've done
in the past to try and make him behave in the way you want him to, you
haven't had great tools to deal with your own frustration and your
grown. Help him to see more options by finding more options for your own self.

Schuyler



________________________________
From: "reetabix_knits@..." <reetabix_knits@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Sunday, 4 March 2012, 18:55
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] How to deal with aggression, tantrums etc?

We
are moving from quite authoritative parenting to unschooling. Our main
way of doing this so far is to say 'yes' more. I am struggling with how
to handle my son. We have 5 children living at home. My son is 8. He has
always reacted violently when prevented from doing what he wants.
Previously we would send him to his room, shout, get angry and sometimes
smack. Since saying yes more, he is responding brilliantly, becoming
much happier. But still if he can't do something (a classic example
would be playing on the ipad when his sister is on it) he will still get
incredibly angry, shouting, swearing, stomping off and throwing things
around. I understand that this is the way he needs express himself, but
it is very distressing for me, and
sometimes his younger sisters start crying because they're scared. How
can I help him? At the moment I feel at a loss for what to do, as my
ingrained reaction is to get angry and start shouting. I'm trying not to
do this, but am only about 50% successful.

Many thanks for your help,

Rita


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Schuyler

Given that his expressions of anger seem to be very energetic it may help more if you help him to get more movement in his day. Trampolining, running around at the park, swimming, lots of more active within day things may keep him off the boil and ameliorate some of the need for bubble wrap and dirt clods being kept to hand.


Schuyler



________________________________
From: DorothyR <npdkr27@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tuesday, 6 March 2012, 4:36
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: How to deal with aggression, tantrums etc?


 
Congratulations on your efforts to move toward more connectedness.
I'm not sure this is an unschooling answer per se, but my only suggestion is to start with empathy, then help him show his anger in less destructive ways. My son likes to throw dirt clods from teh garden out onto the wall outside. OR jump on bubble wrap. Or rip pages from the phone book. He has anger he expresses in shouting, and we certainly don't like it but it sure beats hitting someone, so that's self-control,right? I have to resist being authoritative also, and have slipped so many times, I am sure my oldest has soem aggression and resentment. I'ts s work in progress.
Best, Dorothy

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Schuyler

I just reread what I wrote and I wanted to add that physical expressions of anger, punching things, throwing things, as a way of letting off steam seem to be under question as a valid method for releasing tension. Turns out it tends to make people angrier: http://psychologydegreeguide.org/anger-psychology/ Cracked.com also has it among the list of facts about psychology that everyone believes (except for the folks who don't and made up the list) but it's more swearing than the first link: http://www.cracked.com/article/85_6-bullshit-facts-about-psychology-that-everyone-believes/.


Schuyler



________________________________
From: Schuyler <s.waynforth@...>
To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, 6 March 2012, 10:32
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Re: How to deal with aggression, tantrums etc?


 
Given that his expressions of anger seem to be very energetic it may help more if you help him to get more movement in his day. Trampolining, running around at the park, swimming, lots of more active within day things may keep him off the boil and ameliorate some of the need for bubble wrap and dirt clods being kept to hand.

Schuyler

________________________________
From: DorothyR <npdkr27@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tuesday, 6 March 2012, 4:36
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: How to deal with aggression, tantrums etc?


 
Congratulations on your efforts to move toward more connectedness.
I'm not sure this is an unschooling answer per se, but my only suggestion is to start with empathy, then help him show his anger in less destructive ways. My son likes to throw dirt clods from teh garden out onto the wall outside. OR jump on bubble wrap. Or rip pages from the phone book. He has anger he expresses in shouting, and we certainly don't like it but it sure beats hitting someone, so that's self-control,right? I have to resist being authoritative also, and have slipped so many times, I am sure my oldest has soem aggression and resentment. I'ts s work in progress.
Best, Dorothy

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Meredith

"DorothyR" <npdkr27@...> wrote:
>He has anger he expresses in shouting, and we certainly don't like it but it sure beats hitting someone, so that's self-control,right?
*****************

It depends on whether he's actually making a choice to yell rather than hit - yelling is generally better than hitting, true, but if he's not deliberately doing one thing over another, it's not self-control, it's that he has a less-than-totally-extreme response in the moment. That's not a bad thing - its certainly easier as a starting point than dealing with a child who starts with hitting!

I say that yelling is "generally" better, because some people do have very strong reactions to yelling. It doesn't always Feel better to have someone shouting - especially if the person shouting is a sibling, as in the original post. It's not necessarily helpful to a child to say "at least he hasn't hit you".

---Meredith

Meredith

Schuyler <s.waynforth@...> wrote:
>
> I just reread what I wrote and I wanted to add that physical expressions of anger, punching things, throwing things, as a way of letting off steam seem to be under question as a valid method for releasing tension.
********************

I think it's important to differentiate between physical activity as an attempt to "blow off steam" when angry versus proactive physical activity as something which meets a need for a very active individual. For someone with a whole lot of energy, using big muscle groups on a regular basis is an important need - as important as things like hunger and rest. A kid who feels "antsy" can end up having a shorter fuse as a result.

---Meredith

DorothyR

Thank you this is so true! I try to get my kids outside in the morning and stay outside all day. My moom used to let us in to go potty or eat lunch, and that was about it. I wish they had a rent-an-8-year-old-boy program in Santa Monica. I think my guy would really love that.

--- In [email protected], Schuyler <s.waynforth@...> wrote:
>
> Given that his expressions of anger seem to be very energetic it may help more if you help him to get more movement in his day. Trampolining, running around at the park, swimming, lots of more active within day things may keep him off the boil and ameliorate some of the need for bubble wrap and dirt clods being kept to hand.
>
>
> Schuyler
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: DorothyR <npdkr27@...>
> To: [email protected]
> Sent: Tuesday, 6 March 2012, 4:36
> Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: How to deal with aggression, tantrums etc?
>
>
>  
> Congratulations on your efforts to move toward more connectedness.
> I'm not sure this is an unschooling answer per se, but my only suggestion is to start with empathy, then help him show his anger in less destructive ways. My son likes to throw dirt clods from teh garden out onto the wall outside. OR jump on bubble wrap. Or rip pages from the phone book. He has anger he expresses in shouting, and we certainly don't like it but it sure beats hitting someone, so that's self-control,right? I have to resist being authoritative also, and have slipped so many times, I am sure my oldest has soem aggression and resentment. I'ts s work in progress.
> Best, Dorothy
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

DorothyR

Well, I can watch him physically control himself to not strike out with his hands, and then he makes a choice to yell instead. He has been able to do this for a long time pretty well,even as a toddler. He actually didn't have a strong voice to say "stop" when someone's actions were bothering him, so we coached him a bit on that. So I take his yelling when bothered as kind of a victory in a couple ways. Although it can be annoying.

--- In [email protected], "Meredith" <plaidpanties666@...> wrote:
>
> "DorothyR" <npdkr27@> wrote:
> >He has anger he expresses in shouting, and we certainly don't like it but it sure beats hitting someone, so that's self-control,right?
> *****************
>
> It depends on whether he's actually making a choice to yell rather than hit - yelling is generally better than hitting, true, but if he's not deliberately doing one thing over another, it's not self-control, it's that he has a less-than-totally-extreme response in the moment. That's not a bad thing - its certainly easier as a starting point than dealing with a child who starts with hitting!
>
> I say that yelling is "generally" better, because some people do have very strong reactions to yelling. It doesn't always Feel better to have someone shouting - especially if the person shouting is a sibling, as in the original post. It's not necessarily helpful to a child to say "at least he hasn't hit you".
>
> ---Meredith
>

tlbtsrh

I regularly look after a much younger kid who seems to have a lot of aggression, I'm finding that when I see him getting frustrated, that removing him calmly from the situation and sitting with him, just quietly, reassuring him, and waiting for him to calm down is really helping. The amount of time it is taking to calm down is reducing quite rapidly, and there seems to be more happy times than angry ones. Still early days and different age group, but just thought I'd share.

Sarah

Meredith

"tlbtsrh" <sarahtalbot@...> wrote:
>when I see him getting frustrated, that removing him calmly from the situation and sitting with him, just quietly, reassuring him, and waiting for him to calm down is really helping
**************

One of the advantages of catching things in early stages is you have the chance to change things before the emotional storm is too intense. Often any number of options can be helpful - from something as simple as offering a snack or putting on a movie to what's described above. It can help to keep that in mind (change something!) as a tool for when you Start to see things go south.

That being said, not all kids respond well to being removed from a situation - and chances are even a child who Often responds well, won't every time. It's helpful to try and step back from looking for One perfect solution and instead build up a set of skills and tools and options which can be adapted to fit a variety of situations - because that's the way life is, so much of the time. What "works" at home may not work at a friend's house, or on the playground, or when someone's hungry or tired.

>>The amount of time it is taking to calm down is reducing quite rapidly
**************

That's great! A lot of time what's happening when you get that effect is you're taking your own issues out of the mix - your own reaction to your child's upset or the situation preceding it. Stepping back from your own "stuff" and instead focusing on your child's needs can help to keep the upset from escalating - which means it all blows over sooner.

There's a danger worth pointing out, though, in the idea that the "goal" is to reduce the amount of time your child is upset. Sometimes when a person is emotional, what he or she most needs is to ride out the emotional storm, as it were. Then you can be comforting in whatever way is helpful to your child, but with the understanding that your job is to "be there" - be supportive, not make the unhappiness go away. That can be hard for parents!

---Meredith

tlbtsrh

> There's a danger worth pointing out, though, in the idea that the "goal" is to reduce the amount of time your child is upset. Sometimes when a person is emotional, what he or she most needs is to ride out the emotional storm, as it were. Then you can be comforting in whatever way is helpful to your child, but with the understanding that your job is to "be there" - be supportive, not make the unhappiness go away. That can be hard for parents!

Yes, I've been noticing this with myself even! You try to move on, but make this worse. Sometimes it's good to just acknowledge how you or someone else is feeling and try not to fuss over it, just accept it, it is ok!

Sarah