Differing ideas on technology limits
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I was just recently introduced to the idea of radical unschooling (and we've only been unschooling for a few months), and after diving head-first into attempting to educate myself on it via these boards and Sandra's website, it just *makes sense*.
So, I am attempting to slowly implement more of the radical unschooling concepts (with both my kids (one is 6, the other nearly 4) and my husband), and it has been completely wonderful. Our relationships have gotten so much deeper in just a short amount of time.
My husband wasn't on-board with unschooling at first, but has realized that it works well (he told me he "got it" when I mentioned an analogy that Sandra made in one of her audio clips that forced-learning is like a car person constantly talking about carburetors to someone who could care less, ha! I love it.). He still doesn't see the concepts of radical unschooling as beneficial though--he feels that if the kids are allowed unlimited access to technology (and other things, but this is the main issue currently), then that will be all they want to ever do.
So what I am wondering is, how can I allow my kids to pursue their technological interests at the rate they desire when my husband feels that their exposure to technology should be vastly limited? ("Why don't you kids go play outside??"...which they do often.)
I guess what I am worried about is how this will effect how the kids view their time they get on the computer/tv. Because my husband says "no" to it often (although it's often in the form of something more like, "How about you read a book instead?"...which is still ultimately a no), will they view the time that I give them while he's at work as a "hurry, let's watch as much tv as we can while Dad's not home" type of a thing?
I am also worried about the issue effecting the relationship that I have with my husband. Even if we keep going as we do now--me allowing them access whenever, and him moderating when he's home, there is bound to be a "But Mom lets us!" at some point when he denies them. And then they will turn to me, knowing that I allow it, which would undermine him if I went against him. When this happens now, I obviously don't want to undermine him, so I suggest we do something else together...is there something else I could/should do?
Anyway...putting this all out there for some outside insight for a newbie.
Thank you!
Trista
So, I am attempting to slowly implement more of the radical unschooling concepts (with both my kids (one is 6, the other nearly 4) and my husband), and it has been completely wonderful. Our relationships have gotten so much deeper in just a short amount of time.
My husband wasn't on-board with unschooling at first, but has realized that it works well (he told me he "got it" when I mentioned an analogy that Sandra made in one of her audio clips that forced-learning is like a car person constantly talking about carburetors to someone who could care less, ha! I love it.). He still doesn't see the concepts of radical unschooling as beneficial though--he feels that if the kids are allowed unlimited access to technology (and other things, but this is the main issue currently), then that will be all they want to ever do.
So what I am wondering is, how can I allow my kids to pursue their technological interests at the rate they desire when my husband feels that their exposure to technology should be vastly limited? ("Why don't you kids go play outside??"...which they do often.)
I guess what I am worried about is how this will effect how the kids view their time they get on the computer/tv. Because my husband says "no" to it often (although it's often in the form of something more like, "How about you read a book instead?"...which is still ultimately a no), will they view the time that I give them while he's at work as a "hurry, let's watch as much tv as we can while Dad's not home" type of a thing?
I am also worried about the issue effecting the relationship that I have with my husband. Even if we keep going as we do now--me allowing them access whenever, and him moderating when he's home, there is bound to be a "But Mom lets us!" at some point when he denies them. And then they will turn to me, knowing that I allow it, which would undermine him if I went against him. When this happens now, I obviously don't want to undermine him, so I suggest we do something else together...is there something else I could/should do?
Anyway...putting this all out there for some outside insight for a newbie.
Thank you!
Trista
Meredith
"tristaleann@..." <tristaleann@...> wrote:
Easing in is good - especially with a skeptical partner. It's tempting, when things are going well, to push to go faster, but it's really important that your partner be able to see things going well for long enough that he can develop a bit of trust in this crazy new way of parenting. Everyone in the family needs time to deschool and learn new ways of doing things - parents as well as kids.
At the same time, be sure you're looking for ways to extend the benefits of unschooling to your spouse. The more he can feel loved and valued and supported as a person, the more inclined he'll be to want those things for his kids.
Your relationship with your husband is important! If that relationship falls apart, it will jeopardize your kids' future in big ways. That's not to say you should "side" with your husband against your kids - if anything, try to think of the whole family together as a kind of team. Sometimes dad is going to need some extra help and support. It doesn't help the team if he's wigging out. Your idea of suggesting things to do together when dad is stressing about tv is a good one in that sense!
At the same time, it could be helpful to gently point out to your husband all the time your kids spend doing things he already feels good about - reading or playing outside, or whatever. If he works outside the home, especially, it's easy for him to get a skewed idea of what a normal day looks like. That was something I noticed when I took over the breadwinner position in my family - I'd come home and the kids would be in front of the tv. I wasn't really worried, I could see other evidence of a busy day, but that was all I really Saw. Then I had some time off and realized they tended to "crash" about half an hour before I came home and I was missing all the other stuff which led up to them relaxing in front of the tv.
Talking to your husband about other things the kids do during the day also helps to build more of a sense of connection. Your husband very likely Wants to feel connected to his kids, but that can be hard if he's away all day. So help him see what goes on when he's not that And help him connect more with the kids when he's home. The more reassured and connected he feels, the easier time he'll have saying yes to more of the scary stuff.
At some point, it may be helpful to offer him this to read:
http://sandradodd.com/t/economics
It's about how limits increase marginal utility and so increase interest and desire. That's a really useful idea to get him thinking about, even if he doesn't agree with it right away - it's one of the main reasons Why unschoolers try to move away from arbitrary limits. Knowing the reasons behind the seemingly crazy ideas can be helpful.
---Meredith
>> So, I am attempting to slowly implement more of the radical unschooling concepts (with both my kids (one is 6, the other nearly 4) and my husband), and it has been completely wonderful. Our relationships have gotten so much deeper in just a short amount of time.*****************
Easing in is good - especially with a skeptical partner. It's tempting, when things are going well, to push to go faster, but it's really important that your partner be able to see things going well for long enough that he can develop a bit of trust in this crazy new way of parenting. Everyone in the family needs time to deschool and learn new ways of doing things - parents as well as kids.
At the same time, be sure you're looking for ways to extend the benefits of unschooling to your spouse. The more he can feel loved and valued and supported as a person, the more inclined he'll be to want those things for his kids.
> I am also worried about the issue effecting the relationship that I have with my husband.**************
Your relationship with your husband is important! If that relationship falls apart, it will jeopardize your kids' future in big ways. That's not to say you should "side" with your husband against your kids - if anything, try to think of the whole family together as a kind of team. Sometimes dad is going to need some extra help and support. It doesn't help the team if he's wigging out. Your idea of suggesting things to do together when dad is stressing about tv is a good one in that sense!
At the same time, it could be helpful to gently point out to your husband all the time your kids spend doing things he already feels good about - reading or playing outside, or whatever. If he works outside the home, especially, it's easy for him to get a skewed idea of what a normal day looks like. That was something I noticed when I took over the breadwinner position in my family - I'd come home and the kids would be in front of the tv. I wasn't really worried, I could see other evidence of a busy day, but that was all I really Saw. Then I had some time off and realized they tended to "crash" about half an hour before I came home and I was missing all the other stuff which led up to them relaxing in front of the tv.
Talking to your husband about other things the kids do during the day also helps to build more of a sense of connection. Your husband very likely Wants to feel connected to his kids, but that can be hard if he's away all day. So help him see what goes on when he's not that And help him connect more with the kids when he's home. The more reassured and connected he feels, the easier time he'll have saying yes to more of the scary stuff.
>>he feels that if the kids are allowed unlimited access to technology (and other things, but this is the main issue currently), then that will be all they want to ever do.*************
At some point, it may be helpful to offer him this to read:
http://sandradodd.com/t/economics
It's about how limits increase marginal utility and so increase interest and desire. That's a really useful idea to get him thinking about, even if he doesn't agree with it right away - it's one of the main reasons Why unschoolers try to move away from arbitrary limits. Knowing the reasons behind the seemingly crazy ideas can be helpful.
---Meredith
Joyce Fetteroll
On Feb 28, 2012, at 6:32 PM, tristaleann@... wrote:
But the flaw in that theory is that those kids' are all in school. It's natural to assume that their behavior is natural. But now that there are unschooled kids who are adults, it's easy to see that schooled kid behavior isn't normal. It's reactionary to being in school all day.
First, schooled kids need down time after school and, just as TV is for many adults, playing video games and surfing the internet can be a way to unwind. It's a way to retreat for a refresher.
Second, schooled kids have limited free time. \t takes dedicated time to beat video games. When time is limited, kids will naturally want to get as much time into beating the games as they can.
There are now-adult kids who grew up unschooling with choice in how they spend their time. If the theory were true, they would spend all their time on electronics. They don't. They live varied lives. There are *periods* (pre-teen and early teen when they're transitioning from kid interests to more adult-like interests) where video games and TV are bigger in their lives, but they get what they need and interest decreases in that and increases in other things.
Video games and TV filled a big part of my daughter's life from 12ish to 15ish. Just as dinosaurs filled her life from 2ish to 10ish. We did other things too, but that's what interested her most. But now, at 20, I can't remember the last time she played a video game. And while she was living at home it was hard to keep the DVR from filling up. She grew. Her interests changed. She had as much time as she needed to explore what interested her and she moved onto other things to explore.
A final point, it muddles the view of what kids are doing to lump all technology together. Playing a video game is nothing like watching a TV show which is nothing like pursuing answers to questions on the internet. They're as different as playing chess, attending a play, looking something up in the library and talking to people about it. Nobody would lump those together.
It helps loads to sit with them and get to know what they're doing and what they love about it :-) Video games are huge challenging puzzles. It's limiting to think of them as "kid stuff". Kids who are beating these video games are juggling way more strategy than in chess!
It's helpful to remind yourself that you can't change his beliefs but you do have the power to change the environment. The more comfortable he feels, the less pressure he feels to believe as you do, the more likely he'll be able to observe it objectively and see the good parts. He won't feel like his beliefs are being pulled from him which will tend to make him focus on the parts that he doesn't like in what you're doing.
Invite him to play with you and the kids on games. Get some games the whole family can enjoy. Don't be discouraged if he says no. Keep offering occasionally. Keep trying different things. Just as you would with a kid.
If he's only there in the evening when he's home from work, then you can coach them to help dad feel more comfortable about them being at home instead of going to school. Maybe set up the day deliberately with his needs in mind so they movie from computers during the day to forts and books in evening. You don't need to make rules about it so much as suggestions like "Daddy feels more comfortable with the kind of play he did as a kid that doesn't involve electronics so if you don't mind doing that tonight, that would be nice for Daddy." And if they really want to do something active during the day, that's okay! But keep the idea of doing more non-electronic interests in the evening swirling around in their lives.
If they ask why, you can say you don't know and sometimes people don't know why they feel as they do. But it's respectful to be aware of the comfort of people we love. Maybe there's something one of the kids doesn't like that doesn't seem to have a reason that you can use as an example.
It's problematic when parents won't allow their kids to come to conclusions other than what they parents believe. (Though, in reality, kids will only be parroting their parents' beliefs, acting and saying what the parents want them to. What they actually believe isn't in the parents' control.) If you and your husband have different views on electronics, they can't help but feel free to come to their own conclusions ;-)
So they may squeeze in the TV before he gets home, but it will be for different internal reasons. The outside behavior may be the same but the inside feelings will be different.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> he feels that if the kids are allowed unlimited access to technologyThat's a reasonable theory based on most kids' behavior. When kids get free time many fill it with electronics. It's reasonable to assume if all of kids time is free they would spend all of it on electronics.
> (and other things, but this is the main issue currently), then that
> will be all they want to ever do.
But the flaw in that theory is that those kids' are all in school. It's natural to assume that their behavior is natural. But now that there are unschooled kids who are adults, it's easy to see that schooled kid behavior isn't normal. It's reactionary to being in school all day.
First, schooled kids need down time after school and, just as TV is for many adults, playing video games and surfing the internet can be a way to unwind. It's a way to retreat for a refresher.
Second, schooled kids have limited free time. \t takes dedicated time to beat video games. When time is limited, kids will naturally want to get as much time into beating the games as they can.
There are now-adult kids who grew up unschooling with choice in how they spend their time. If the theory were true, they would spend all their time on electronics. They don't. They live varied lives. There are *periods* (pre-teen and early teen when they're transitioning from kid interests to more adult-like interests) where video games and TV are bigger in their lives, but they get what they need and interest decreases in that and increases in other things.
Video games and TV filled a big part of my daughter's life from 12ish to 15ish. Just as dinosaurs filled her life from 2ish to 10ish. We did other things too, but that's what interested her most. But now, at 20, I can't remember the last time she played a video game. And while she was living at home it was hard to keep the DVR from filling up. She grew. Her interests changed. She had as much time as she needed to explore what interested her and she moved onto other things to explore.
A final point, it muddles the view of what kids are doing to lump all technology together. Playing a video game is nothing like watching a TV show which is nothing like pursuing answers to questions on the internet. They're as different as playing chess, attending a play, looking something up in the library and talking to people about it. Nobody would lump those together.
It helps loads to sit with them and get to know what they're doing and what they love about it :-) Video games are huge challenging puzzles. It's limiting to think of them as "kid stuff". Kids who are beating these video games are juggling way more strategy than in chess!
It's helpful to remind yourself that you can't change his beliefs but you do have the power to change the environment. The more comfortable he feels, the less pressure he feels to believe as you do, the more likely he'll be able to observe it objectively and see the good parts. He won't feel like his beliefs are being pulled from him which will tend to make him focus on the parts that he doesn't like in what you're doing.
Invite him to play with you and the kids on games. Get some games the whole family can enjoy. Don't be discouraged if he says no. Keep offering occasionally. Keep trying different things. Just as you would with a kid.
> So what I am wondering is, how can I allow my kids to pursue theirThe kids can see clearly that people can have different opinions about things since it's right there in the family. :-) And they can draw conclusions from their own experiences what they believe.
> technological interests at the rate they desire when my husband feels
> that their exposure to technology should be vastly limited?
If he's only there in the evening when he's home from work, then you can coach them to help dad feel more comfortable about them being at home instead of going to school. Maybe set up the day deliberately with his needs in mind so they movie from computers during the day to forts and books in evening. You don't need to make rules about it so much as suggestions like "Daddy feels more comfortable with the kind of play he did as a kid that doesn't involve electronics so if you don't mind doing that tonight, that would be nice for Daddy." And if they really want to do something active during the day, that's okay! But keep the idea of doing more non-electronic interests in the evening swirling around in their lives.
If they ask why, you can say you don't know and sometimes people don't know why they feel as they do. But it's respectful to be aware of the comfort of people we love. Maybe there's something one of the kids doesn't like that doesn't seem to have a reason that you can use as an example.
> I guess what I am worried about is how this will effect how the kids view their time they get on the computer/tv.They can draw conclusions, not just from what you and your husband believe, but from what they're discovering on their own. That's a big important part of unschooling! See your and your husband's beliefs as information, as possible ways of viewing the world, not as truths to be swallowed.
It's problematic when parents won't allow their kids to come to conclusions other than what they parents believe. (Though, in reality, kids will only be parroting their parents' beliefs, acting and saying what the parents want them to. What they actually believe isn't in the parents' control.) If you and your husband have different views on electronics, they can't help but feel free to come to their own conclusions ;-)
> will they view the time that I give them while he's at work as a "hurry,It will depend on how *you* view it and how *you* present it. If you treat it as a rule and a deadline, then they will too. If you treat it as a kindness, they will too.
> let's watch as much tv as we can while Dad's not home" type of a thing?
So they may squeeze in the TV before he gets home, but it will be for different internal reasons. The outside behavior may be the same but the inside feelings will be different.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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Wow, thank you both so much for your insight and suggestions. I've been allowing your responses to sink in and have had to read and re-read a few times to get a better understanding.
I did talk to my 6 year old yesterday about how my husband isn't the biggest fan of them watching tv/playing games while he's home (thank you for pointing out the fact that they are indeed completely different entities, that should have but didn't occur to me at the time) and why that is and brainstormed about what we could do to help make him more comfortable. Then last night, after he'd come home and was sitting looking at a book she said, "Daddy, can we...ooh, wait. Nevermind. I'll do Supermans onto the couch instead." and then smiled at me.
Duh, who would have thought that just talking to her about it and letting her consider his point of view would help so much? Seems like common sense once you think about it for a minute. Thanks for the reminder that my kids are real people and can come to their own conclusions just as well, and sometimes better it seems than I can.
Trista
I did talk to my 6 year old yesterday about how my husband isn't the biggest fan of them watching tv/playing games while he's home (thank you for pointing out the fact that they are indeed completely different entities, that should have but didn't occur to me at the time) and why that is and brainstormed about what we could do to help make him more comfortable. Then last night, after he'd come home and was sitting looking at a book she said, "Daddy, can we...ooh, wait. Nevermind. I'll do Supermans onto the couch instead." and then smiled at me.
Duh, who would have thought that just talking to her about it and letting her consider his point of view would help so much? Seems like common sense once you think about it for a minute. Thanks for the reminder that my kids are real people and can come to their own conclusions just as well, and sometimes better it seems than I can.
Trista