Worried
Loretta B.
Hi All,
Every year I get worried that my child is falling behind. This year,
especially, because I had to drop everything to take care of my Mom for 2
months. I don't have alot of support with unschooling in my area (Simi
Valley, CA). Most all of the homeschooling groups I belong to have a
curriculum and a set school schedule. I never did. I always tried to do
life learning or child led, yet always felt like I wasn't doing enough,
when I heard the other Moms talking about what they were doing. Now, my 10
year old, only child girl is starting to think that she isn't as smart as
other children and although I try to convince her otherwise, she is not
convinced. I'm getting antsy about next year (which would be 6th grade),
as she has never had an interest in Math and so, we haven't done much with
it. I found a book that I've been reading to her about Math concepts and I
think she is finally understanding. She feels as though she is at a 3rd
grade level. I feel it is always difficult to start things in the morning
and we are often "on the go" to fieldtrips and such. I need some pointers
and recomendations from this group please. Thank you...Signed Freaking out
in Simi....Loretta
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Every year I get worried that my child is falling behind. This year,
especially, because I had to drop everything to take care of my Mom for 2
months. I don't have alot of support with unschooling in my area (Simi
Valley, CA). Most all of the homeschooling groups I belong to have a
curriculum and a set school schedule. I never did. I always tried to do
life learning or child led, yet always felt like I wasn't doing enough,
when I heard the other Moms talking about what they were doing. Now, my 10
year old, only child girl is starting to think that she isn't as smart as
other children and although I try to convince her otherwise, she is not
convinced. I'm getting antsy about next year (which would be 6th grade),
as she has never had an interest in Math and so, we haven't done much with
it. I found a book that I've been reading to her about Math concepts and I
think she is finally understanding. She feels as though she is at a 3rd
grade level. I feel it is always difficult to start things in the morning
and we are often "on the go" to fieldtrips and such. I need some pointers
and recomendations from this group please. Thank you...Signed Freaking out
in Simi....Loretta
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce Fetteroll
On Feb 13, 2012, at 6:08 AM, Loretta B. wrote:
If someone who is baking pies judges how well she's doing by how well she's producing cakes, she's going to look like a failure no matter how great her pies.
If the goal of visiting a zoo is to see all the animals in a predetermined order and to be able to answer specific questions from the signs, then taking any route other than the predetermined one, reading the parts of the signs other than what will be tested, will result in failure.
Someone who follows their delight at the zoo and explores what interests them for as long as they want, reads the signs that intrigue them, spends an hour studying the lions and never even enters the reptile house will come away with a very different experience. If it's seen as an exploration of interests, it's a success. If it's judge on how well they met the milestones and memorized the facts on the test, they'll be a failure.
If the goal of homeschooling is being able to spit back information right now, curriculum does that fairly well --- for kids who are able to memorize. The immediate result is outward behavior that is impressive to other adults. It results in the mom being able to show off what a good job she's doing as a homeschooler.
It's *assumed* that what kids can do right now means they will always be able to do it and to apply it. Is that true? How much of school have you retained? How much have you forgotten? How much of what you retained is because you've used it numerous times in your life? How much of what you retained is because it was interesting to you?
The adults who failed at the game show "Are You Smarter Than a 5th Grader", where they answered questions from 1st-5th grade textbook weren't showing they weren't smart. They were showing how poorly information presented in school that is never used again is retained.
Here's two things that might help:
Why you can't let go.
http://sandradodd.com/joyce/talk
Am I homeschooling for the right reasons?
http://www.homeschool.co.uk/resource/homeschool-for-the-right-reasons.html
If your and her definition of smart -- as it is on that game show -- is how many facts and hoop jumping skills from school you can do, then she's right.
She's also at an age when kids *do* start to get interested in more focused learning. And basically the only model they know of is school. So the free form exploration they're doing can feel it comes up short.
It's also a period of transitions between interests. So it can be a more difficult time for her to explore interests. And school can look like it has some magical process of getting that vague feeling of needing focus but can't quite put her finger on.
If her worries about school, if other parents "successes" at school are making you worried, you'll have a hard time helping both of you not worry!
Don't try to convince her. From her point of view she's right. If we could tell people the right way to think and cause them to change, then schools would be huge successes.
Shift your thinking from learning being about acquiring facts and skills to learning being about exploring interests. Do other things. Explore the world in other ways. (Others will have more practical advice! :-)
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Every year I get worried that my child is falling behind.Unschooling kids *will* "fall behind" because the goal of unschooling is different from the goal of school.
If someone who is baking pies judges how well she's doing by how well she's producing cakes, she's going to look like a failure no matter how great her pies.
If the goal of visiting a zoo is to see all the animals in a predetermined order and to be able to answer specific questions from the signs, then taking any route other than the predetermined one, reading the parts of the signs other than what will be tested, will result in failure.
Someone who follows their delight at the zoo and explores what interests them for as long as they want, reads the signs that intrigue them, spends an hour studying the lions and never even enters the reptile house will come away with a very different experience. If it's seen as an exploration of interests, it's a success. If it's judge on how well they met the milestones and memorized the facts on the test, they'll be a failure.
If the goal of homeschooling is being able to spit back information right now, curriculum does that fairly well --- for kids who are able to memorize. The immediate result is outward behavior that is impressive to other adults. It results in the mom being able to show off what a good job she's doing as a homeschooler.
It's *assumed* that what kids can do right now means they will always be able to do it and to apply it. Is that true? How much of school have you retained? How much have you forgotten? How much of what you retained is because you've used it numerous times in your life? How much of what you retained is because it was interesting to you?
The adults who failed at the game show "Are You Smarter Than a 5th Grader", where they answered questions from 1st-5th grade textbook weren't showing they weren't smart. They were showing how poorly information presented in school that is never used again is retained.
Here's two things that might help:
Why you can't let go.
http://sandradodd.com/joyce/talk
Am I homeschooling for the right reasons?
http://www.homeschool.co.uk/resource/homeschool-for-the-right-reasons.html
> Now, my 10How could you convince her of something you're not convinced of yourself?
> year old, only child girl is starting to think that she isn't as smart as
> other children and although I try to convince her otherwise, she is not
> convinced.
If your and her definition of smart -- as it is on that game show -- is how many facts and hoop jumping skills from school you can do, then she's right.
She's also at an age when kids *do* start to get interested in more focused learning. And basically the only model they know of is school. So the free form exploration they're doing can feel it comes up short.
It's also a period of transitions between interests. So it can be a more difficult time for her to explore interests. And school can look like it has some magical process of getting that vague feeling of needing focus but can't quite put her finger on.
If her worries about school, if other parents "successes" at school are making you worried, you'll have a hard time helping both of you not worry!
Don't try to convince her. From her point of view she's right. If we could tell people the right way to think and cause them to change, then schools would be huge successes.
Shift your thinking from learning being about acquiring facts and skills to learning being about exploring interests. Do other things. Explore the world in other ways. (Others will have more practical advice! :-)
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Claire Darbaud
Hi Loretta,
There is still a lot of school in your thinking/writing. Like here:
*** I'm getting antsy about next year (which would be 6th grade), ***
***as she has never had an interest in Math and so, we haven't done much
with
it. I found a book that I've been reading to her about Math concepts and I
think she is finally understanding. ***
***She feels as though she is at a 3rd grade level. ***
"Math" is everywhere you look in real life. It's the way people solve real
life problems. Like paying for things in a shop and getting change. Like
checking how far something is and how much time it takes to get there. Like
figuring out how much tax is going to be on top of what you have to pay. Or
tipping in a restaurant. Like counting the score in just about any game.
Like saving and then buying a new weapon or a new apparel in a video game.
Like building a lego tower or a house or a castle... Or figuring how much
time is left to my next birthday... to the next episode of Pokemon... till
my friend so and so is coming for a visit... like making a cake for 8
people when I have a receipe for 4 people...
"She never had an interest in Math" doesn't make much sense if you look at
life from an unschooling perspective.
http://sandradodd.com/math/
http://joyfullyrejoycing.com/academics/math/senselessschoolmath.html (and
plenty more on Joyce's site)
Another thing in your writing is the constant refering to grade level. It
shows you still believe learning to be a sequential/linear thing. Something
like you learn A and then you can learn B and then C... and if you miss on
"A" then you're stuck and you have to go back... But that's not what
learning looks like. Learning is about making connections. About finding
pieces of the massive puzzle of all knowledge (the whole sheebang: what's
known, what's yet to be discovered, what's not knowable...) and creating
your very own internal map/encyclopedy of the universe... and then refining
it... again and again and again. Revisitig stuff and adjusting. Building
more connections all the time. To different levels of knowledge. To other
things that had looked unrelated till then...
http://sandradodd.com/connections/
http://joyfullyrejoycing.com/deschooling/deschoolingmom.html
You need to educate yourself more about how real learning works. And then
watch your daughter closely. Pay attention to everything she does. Not in a
spying/nosy way, more like a fascinated scientist. Find out what she likes,
what she does, what interests her. Pay very close and very special
attention to what she does know about everything. How does she navigate
life? where does she get jammed? What is she good at? Pay attention to new
vocabulary she is using. Listen to her talk about what she does, know,
like... Maybe write it down in a journal, turn it into a fun research
project :-)
When you see the learning you will relax and build your confidence in her.
You will no longer see her as "behind" anything. As long as you fear she
might be "behind" you will not be able to "convince her" that she is as
smart as other kids. When you see her learning and her witts clearly
without needing to compare that to some imaginary linear learning, you'll
be in a much better place to help feed her self confidence.
My 2 cents :-)
Warmly
Claire
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
There is still a lot of school in your thinking/writing. Like here:
*** I'm getting antsy about next year (which would be 6th grade), ***
***as she has never had an interest in Math and so, we haven't done much
with
it. I found a book that I've been reading to her about Math concepts and I
think she is finally understanding. ***
***She feels as though she is at a 3rd grade level. ***
"Math" is everywhere you look in real life. It's the way people solve real
life problems. Like paying for things in a shop and getting change. Like
checking how far something is and how much time it takes to get there. Like
figuring out how much tax is going to be on top of what you have to pay. Or
tipping in a restaurant. Like counting the score in just about any game.
Like saving and then buying a new weapon or a new apparel in a video game.
Like building a lego tower or a house or a castle... Or figuring how much
time is left to my next birthday... to the next episode of Pokemon... till
my friend so and so is coming for a visit... like making a cake for 8
people when I have a receipe for 4 people...
"She never had an interest in Math" doesn't make much sense if you look at
life from an unschooling perspective.
http://sandradodd.com/math/
http://joyfullyrejoycing.com/academics/math/senselessschoolmath.html (and
plenty more on Joyce's site)
Another thing in your writing is the constant refering to grade level. It
shows you still believe learning to be a sequential/linear thing. Something
like you learn A and then you can learn B and then C... and if you miss on
"A" then you're stuck and you have to go back... But that's not what
learning looks like. Learning is about making connections. About finding
pieces of the massive puzzle of all knowledge (the whole sheebang: what's
known, what's yet to be discovered, what's not knowable...) and creating
your very own internal map/encyclopedy of the universe... and then refining
it... again and again and again. Revisitig stuff and adjusting. Building
more connections all the time. To different levels of knowledge. To other
things that had looked unrelated till then...
http://sandradodd.com/connections/
http://joyfullyrejoycing.com/deschooling/deschoolingmom.html
You need to educate yourself more about how real learning works. And then
watch your daughter closely. Pay attention to everything she does. Not in a
spying/nosy way, more like a fascinated scientist. Find out what she likes,
what she does, what interests her. Pay very close and very special
attention to what she does know about everything. How does she navigate
life? where does she get jammed? What is she good at? Pay attention to new
vocabulary she is using. Listen to her talk about what she does, know,
like... Maybe write it down in a journal, turn it into a fun research
project :-)
When you see the learning you will relax and build your confidence in her.
You will no longer see her as "behind" anything. As long as you fear she
might be "behind" you will not be able to "convince her" that she is as
smart as other kids. When you see her learning and her witts clearly
without needing to compare that to some imaginary linear learning, you'll
be in a much better place to help feed her self confidence.
My 2 cents :-)
Warmly
Claire
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Vickisue Gray
My son started to feel this way around age 11. What we did was talk about his feelings and what options were available. Since unschooling really takes kids into a completely different lifestyle then school does, it's easy for unschooling kids to start having self doubt when they get around schooled kids. My son also hadn't learned that kids would intentionally try and hit you in the groin either. A lesson we were all shocked to learn his younger nephew was well guarded against and talented at doing. (Another story)
Anyway, my son and I discussed all his options from going back to school with the freedom to leave whenever he wished to so he could see what he was missing to trying some virtual classes, to a wide variety of other options that didn't seem to fill his need. He wanted nothing to do with getting around large groups of kids especially after seeing the effect it was having on his cousin so he opted to try a couple of virtual classes. It didn't take long for him to come back to me and say, "Is this all kids my age are doing in school?" My son very quickly saw that he actually knew more. For this one, learning comes naturally at an accelerated pace. He soon returned to complete unschooling.
I'd suggest you spend some time helping your daughter discover what she needs [desires to learn] and help her find a pleasant path to those goals. If she is feeling 'behind in math', there are all sorts of books to read. Here's a short list:
Sir Cumference and the First Round Table : http://www.charlesbridge.com/productdetails.cfm?PC=4461
Murderous Math : http://www.murderousmaths.co.uk/
Life of Fred : http://www.stanleyschmidt.com/FredGauss/index2.html )
There are tons of free online math games and other games that stimulate the thinking. My son LOVES online games so these were always a hit with him. Here's a short list of some of his favorites when he was younger:
Runescape - http://www.runescape.com/
Fun Brain - http://www.funbrain.com/
Time Attack - http://www.bigbrainz.com/
Math Cats - http://www.mathcats.com/
Game Aquarium - http://www.gamequarium.com/
And he ALWAYS wants me to direct everyone to his all time favorite, Dwarf Fortress - http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/
All these things are just tools. When my son was eight, he didn't know north, south, east nor west. After playing Runescape for a day, he did! Buying and selling in game had him doing basic math and mastering it in no time. All sorts of things can be learned through all sorts of play. For my son, he needed to go back to the class/curriculum setting for him to be able to acknowledge all he had learned through unschooling. Not all kids will choose this path which is the true beauty of unschooling. Finding one's own path and having the freedom to run with it.
Good luck!
Vicki
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Anyway, my son and I discussed all his options from going back to school with the freedom to leave whenever he wished to so he could see what he was missing to trying some virtual classes, to a wide variety of other options that didn't seem to fill his need. He wanted nothing to do with getting around large groups of kids especially after seeing the effect it was having on his cousin so he opted to try a couple of virtual classes. It didn't take long for him to come back to me and say, "Is this all kids my age are doing in school?" My son very quickly saw that he actually knew more. For this one, learning comes naturally at an accelerated pace. He soon returned to complete unschooling.
I'd suggest you spend some time helping your daughter discover what she needs [desires to learn] and help her find a pleasant path to those goals. If she is feeling 'behind in math', there are all sorts of books to read. Here's a short list:
Sir Cumference and the First Round Table : http://www.charlesbridge.com/productdetails.cfm?PC=4461
Murderous Math : http://www.murderousmaths.co.uk/
Life of Fred : http://www.stanleyschmidt.com/FredGauss/index2.html )
There are tons of free online math games and other games that stimulate the thinking. My son LOVES online games so these were always a hit with him. Here's a short list of some of his favorites when he was younger:
Runescape - http://www.runescape.com/
Fun Brain - http://www.funbrain.com/
Time Attack - http://www.bigbrainz.com/
Math Cats - http://www.mathcats.com/
Game Aquarium - http://www.gamequarium.com/
And he ALWAYS wants me to direct everyone to his all time favorite, Dwarf Fortress - http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/
All these things are just tools. When my son was eight, he didn't know north, south, east nor west. After playing Runescape for a day, he did! Buying and selling in game had him doing basic math and mastering it in no time. All sorts of things can be learned through all sorts of play. For my son, he needed to go back to the class/curriculum setting for him to be able to acknowledge all he had learned through unschooling. Not all kids will choose this path which is the true beauty of unschooling. Finding one's own path and having the freedom to run with it.
Good luck!
Vicki
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Randi Lee
i'm so very glad to see this post and get to read some of you 2cents. i'm some what facing the same issue but in a different way. my oldest dd is 10 and just started hs journey. she's not accepting hs idea at all. her reason was basically not understanding, learning can be any way other than "school" way which that's all she knows. to make it tougher for her is moving away from her friends(move to different state). sometime she seems to hinting out, she's willing to deal with the unpleasant school experience in exchange of having her friends and learning the way she "used to". if i may be honest here, i truly would not want to let her go back based on the ill experience that took place in most of her school years. in our last discussion, i have said to her to give hs a fair chance since we're fairly new to this adventure. we recently stepping into deschooling phrase after experienced with charlotte mason. so with this being said, you see why i find it
valuable reading all the advice for this post. sorry i'm off the course here.
if any pointers for me, will be appreciate it too =).
good health and happiness,
randi
valuable reading all the advice for this post. sorry i'm off the course here.
if any pointers for me, will be appreciate it too =).
good health and happiness,
randi
Meredith
Randi Lee <randily41@...> wrote:
Did she want to leave school in the first place? Or was taking her out tied up with moving, so she feels like she didn't have any choice or control over the matter? Those sorts of things can make a difference to unschooling (or homeschooling).
But you've moved to a different area, and the school experience might be different, too - especially if She sees it as a better option. One of the advantages of having tried homeschooling, too, is that she can go to school with the understanding that there's something other than school available. The understanding that she's actively choosing to be where she is could change the whole experience for her.
So it's up to you, now, to make it a lovely adventure, not a dull one or the sort you tell horror stories about later ;) Do vacationy things together for awhile - go fun places and do fun things, but also be sure to hang around the house chilling out and enjoying each other's company.
If you can get to an unschooling conference or campout - or find a local social group - that might be a good way for her to meet and connect with kids who are already unschooling.
---Meredith
>she's not accepting hs idea at all. her reason was basically not understanding, learning can be any way other than "school" way which that's all she knows.**************
Did she want to leave school in the first place? Or was taking her out tied up with moving, so she feels like she didn't have any choice or control over the matter? Those sorts of things can make a difference to unschooling (or homeschooling).
>>i truly would not want to let her go back based on the ill experience that took place in most of her school years.****************
But you've moved to a different area, and the school experience might be different, too - especially if She sees it as a better option. One of the advantages of having tried homeschooling, too, is that she can go to school with the understanding that there's something other than school available. The understanding that she's actively choosing to be where she is could change the whole experience for her.
>>i have said to her to give hs a fair chance since we're fairly new to this adventure.********************
So it's up to you, now, to make it a lovely adventure, not a dull one or the sort you tell horror stories about later ;) Do vacationy things together for awhile - go fun places and do fun things, but also be sure to hang around the house chilling out and enjoying each other's company.
If you can get to an unschooling conference or campout - or find a local social group - that might be a good way for her to meet and connect with kids who are already unschooling.
---Meredith
Randi Lee
although she didn't suggest to be pull out from school, she was starting to not wanting to go to school. she also didn't ask to homeschool because to her understanding it is for "special" case like either celebrities or very sick kids that couldn't get to school. i'm sure there are even alot of adults think that way or no knowledge of homeschooling.
yes. now it does seems to be all up to me to "make it or break it". i do hope giving some time in freely exploring her world and getting connect with others unschooler, she will come around.....
as always, appreciate you pointing things out.
yes. now it does seems to be all up to me to "make it or break it". i do hope giving some time in freely exploring her world and getting connect with others unschooler, she will come around.....
as always, appreciate you pointing things out.
--- On Tue, 2/14/12, Meredith <plaidpanties666@...> wrote:
From: Meredith <plaidpanties666@...>
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: Worried
To: [email protected]
Date: Tuesday, February 14, 2012, 6:16 PM
Randi Lee <randily41@...> wrote:
>she's not accepting hs idea at all. her reason was basically not understanding, learning can be any way other than "school" way which that's all she knows.
**************
Did she want to leave school in the first place? Or was taking her out tied up with moving, so she feels like she didn't have any choice or control over the matter? Those sorts of things can make a difference to unschooling (or homeschooling).
>>i truly would not want to let her go back based on the ill experience that took place in most of her school years.
****************
But you've moved to a different area, and the school experience might be different, too - especially if She sees it as a better option. One of the advantages of having tried homeschooling, too, is that she can go to school with the understanding that there's something other than school available. The understanding that she's actively choosing to be where she is could change the whole experience for her.
>>i have said to her to give hs a fair chance since we're fairly new to this adventure.
********************
So it's up to you, now, to make it a lovely adventure, not a dull one or the sort you tell horror stories about later ;) Do vacationy things together for awhile - go fun places and do fun things, but also be sure to hang around the house chilling out and enjoying each other's company.
If you can get to an unschooling conference or campout - or find a local social group - that might be a good way for her to meet and connect with kids who are already unschooling.
---Meredith
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]