public school
Denise Jordan
My daughter says she wants to go back to public school. She has been there before and when she is there she wants to homeschool and of course when she's here she wants to go back to school. she likes to see her friends but she still sees her friends when we are at home. so how do we handle this. She says she misses art, I have signed her up for art classes. she doesn't do well in public school as far as grades, paying attention, getting up early, going to bed early, homework, etc. Any suggestions? she is free to do whatever she wants at home. thanks Denise
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Tova
Most pubic schools allow homescooled children to partake in some of the classes (they are public schools after all and your taxes are paying for them). Your daughter could just take the art class at public school and nothing else. My daughter goes to the recess at the public school down the road some days.
--- On Mon, 10/17/11, Denise Jordan <denisejordan4@...> wrote:
From: Denise Jordan <denisejordan4@...>
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] public school
To: "unschooling" <[email protected]>
Date: Monday, October 17, 2011, 7:15 PM
My daughter says she wants to go back to public school. She has been there before and when she is there she wants to homeschool and of course when she's here she wants to go back to school. she likes to see her friends but she still sees her friends when we are at home. so how do we handle this. She says she misses art, I have signed her up for art classes. she doesn't do well in public school as far as grades, paying attention, getting up early, going to bed early, homework, etc. Any suggestions? she is free to do whatever she wants at home. thanks Denise
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Denise Jordan
Thanks Tova but Im not under the county. I am under an umbrella school. not sure if they can do that when we are in what is considered a private school. guess i will check with the schools and see. Thanks
To: [email protected]
From: ml_ja@...
Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 18:37:32 -0700
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] public school
Most pubic schools allow homescooled children to partake in some of the classes (they are public schools after all and your taxes are paying for them). Your daughter could just take the art class at public school and nothing else. My daughter goes to the recess at the public school down the road some days.
To: [email protected]
From: ml_ja@...
Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 18:37:32 -0700
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] public school
Most pubic schools allow homescooled children to partake in some of the classes (they are public schools after all and your taxes are paying for them). Your daughter could just take the art class at public school and nothing else. My daughter goes to the recess at the public school down the road some days.
--- On Mon, 10/17/11, Denise Jordan <denisejordan4@...> wrote:
From: Denise Jordan <denisejordan4@...>
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] public school
To: "unschooling" <[email protected]>
Date: Monday, October 17, 2011, 7:15 PM
My daughter says she wants to go back to public school. She has been there before and when she is there she wants to homeschool and of course when she's here she wants to go back to school. she likes to see her friends but she still sees her friends when we are at home. so how do we handle this. She says she misses art, I have signed her up for art classes. she doesn't do well in public school as far as grades, paying attention, getting up early, going to bed early, homework, etc. Any suggestions? she is free to do whatever she wants at home. thanks Denise
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Schuyler
It may help for you to read www.sandradodd.com/schoolchoice. If you see school
as a tool that your daughter is choosing to use to explore the world maybe you
can help her with her choice instead of hindering her because you see the
limitations of that tool. Lots of tools have limitations, that doesn't mean they
aren't useful or valuable.
If she isn't happy at home or at school you should work to make either of those
places better for her. What is it she wants from school? Does she want more time
with other people? Can you get out more each week, each day? Can you go where
there are more people to be around? Can you get out and about regularly? Can you
find other things to do in your community? Other things to be engaged by, other
connections? Join a choir or a dance troupe or get involved with volunteering
at a local woods or animal shelter or whatever is available? Look for exciting
and engaging things that you and she can add to your life instead of bemoaning
the fact that she keeps not being happy in one or the other of the two
scenarios she has experienced. Make a bigger and brighter life.
She says she misses art and you respond by signing her up for art classes? You
are doing the same thing as she is. When she comes to you with an interest you
enroll her in a course. Why be surprised if she thinks school is an appropriate
venue for exploring life?
Art is huge and vast and fabulous. Art, like science, is how you see the world.
What art does she like? Does she like modern art, things like Sarah Lucas' self
portraits or Banksy'swonderful public statements on politics and the world? Does
she know about that arena? You could get Exit Through the Gift Shop and think
about art as industry, if you wanted, or not. Could you go looking for art in
your environment? Find the little filigrees on buildings, the moments when the
builder broke out of the mould and danced a bit for his or her imagined
audience? Can you go to museums and explore art? Can you go walking around
interesting neighbourhoods and blocks of your city/town and look at
architectural styles? Have you seen this http://slinkachu.com/little-people?
Having seen this I often find spots where I would place little figures when I'm
in town. Maybe, if that interested your daughter (or you), you could collect
figures and have a bit of guerrilla art going in and around your local
town/city.
Linnaea likes to draw. She doesn't think of herself as an artist, or of her
drawings as art. But she enjoys drawing and working on getting the aspects of
the human face correct and she spends a fair bit of time working on it. She
uploads some of her drawings to a forum she's on and asks for help with the
details. For example, she couldn't figure out how to make it look like a woman
was sitting and she uploaded her picture and someone came along and downloaded
it and drew on a few notes and uploaded it and she was able to see how to handle
that problem and fixed the picture. I was and am impressed with her ability to
network for information. No classes, just interest and connections and a desire
to improve.
Schuyler
________________________________
From: Denise Jordan <denisejordan4@...>
To: unschooling <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, 18 October, 2011 0:15:30
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] public school
My daughter says she wants to go back to public school. She has been there
before and when she is there she wants to homeschool and of course when she's
here she wants to go back to school. she likes to see her friends but she
still sees her friends when we are at home. so how do we handle this. She says
she misses art, I have signed her up for art classes. she doesn't do well in
public school as far as grades, paying attention, getting up early, going to bed
early, homework, etc. Any suggestions? she is free to do whatever she wants
at home. thanks Denise
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
as a tool that your daughter is choosing to use to explore the world maybe you
can help her with her choice instead of hindering her because you see the
limitations of that tool. Lots of tools have limitations, that doesn't mean they
aren't useful or valuable.
If she isn't happy at home or at school you should work to make either of those
places better for her. What is it she wants from school? Does she want more time
with other people? Can you get out more each week, each day? Can you go where
there are more people to be around? Can you get out and about regularly? Can you
find other things to do in your community? Other things to be engaged by, other
connections? Join a choir or a dance troupe or get involved with volunteering
at a local woods or animal shelter or whatever is available? Look for exciting
and engaging things that you and she can add to your life instead of bemoaning
the fact that she keeps not being happy in one or the other of the two
scenarios she has experienced. Make a bigger and brighter life.
She says she misses art and you respond by signing her up for art classes? You
are doing the same thing as she is. When she comes to you with an interest you
enroll her in a course. Why be surprised if she thinks school is an appropriate
venue for exploring life?
Art is huge and vast and fabulous. Art, like science, is how you see the world.
What art does she like? Does she like modern art, things like Sarah Lucas' self
portraits or Banksy'swonderful public statements on politics and the world? Does
she know about that arena? You could get Exit Through the Gift Shop and think
about art as industry, if you wanted, or not. Could you go looking for art in
your environment? Find the little filigrees on buildings, the moments when the
builder broke out of the mould and danced a bit for his or her imagined
audience? Can you go to museums and explore art? Can you go walking around
interesting neighbourhoods and blocks of your city/town and look at
architectural styles? Have you seen this http://slinkachu.com/little-people?
Having seen this I often find spots where I would place little figures when I'm
in town. Maybe, if that interested your daughter (or you), you could collect
figures and have a bit of guerrilla art going in and around your local
town/city.
Linnaea likes to draw. She doesn't think of herself as an artist, or of her
drawings as art. But she enjoys drawing and working on getting the aspects of
the human face correct and she spends a fair bit of time working on it. She
uploads some of her drawings to a forum she's on and asks for help with the
details. For example, she couldn't figure out how to make it look like a woman
was sitting and she uploaded her picture and someone came along and downloaded
it and drew on a few notes and uploaded it and she was able to see how to handle
that problem and fixed the picture. I was and am impressed with her ability to
network for information. No classes, just interest and connections and a desire
to improve.
Schuyler
________________________________
From: Denise Jordan <denisejordan4@...>
To: unschooling <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, 18 October, 2011 0:15:30
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] public school
My daughter says she wants to go back to public school. She has been there
before and when she is there she wants to homeschool and of course when she's
here she wants to go back to school. she likes to see her friends but she
still sees her friends when we are at home. so how do we handle this. She says
she misses art, I have signed her up for art classes. she doesn't do well in
public school as far as grades, paying attention, getting up early, going to bed
early, homework, etc. Any suggestions? she is free to do whatever she wants
at home. thanks Denise
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Denise Jordan
" If you see school
as a tool that your daughter is choosing to use to explore the world maybe you
can help her with her choice instead of hindering her because you see the
limitations of that tool. Lots of tools have limitations, that doesn't mean they
aren't useful or valuable."
I know my daughter well. To her school is being in a room with her 2 best friends. She hasn't always gottten the same teacher as her freinds so she doesn't see them at school any more than she does now. She isn't unhappy at home but Im sure she would like to be around kids more during the week. As far as art, she loves to draw, she is 9. Why would I not let her take an art class if that is something she is missing? Not a lot of opportunity in my rural area. It's easy to say what you would do but not completely knowing how things are with ones child you can't really say Im hindering her. We have done the back and forth with public school more than once. I don't want her or me living the life we did while in public school. having to get on to your child every morning to get her up, every afternoon to do homework and every night to go to bed, that's not the kind of life anybody would want their child to grow up in. there was to much arguing, crying, stubborness, etc. I for one don't want my child's childhood to be about getting angry and crying everyday. she only misses public school once in a while and is it really necessary to put her in and take her out every couple of weeks
To: [email protected]
From: s.waynforth@...
Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 10:21:25 +0100
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] public school
It may help for you to read www.sandradodd.com/schoolchoice. If you see school
as a tool that your daughter is choosing to use to explore the world maybe you
can help her with her choice instead of hindering her because you see the
limitations of that tool. Lots of tools have limitations, that doesn't mean they
aren't useful or valuable.
If she isn't happy at home or at school you should work to make either of those
places better for her. What is it she wants from school? Does she want more time
with other people? Can you get out more each week, each day? Can you go where
there are more people to be around? Can you get out and about regularly? Can you
find other things to do in your community? Other things to be engaged by, other
connections? Join a choir or a dance troupe or get involved with volunteering
at a local woods or animal shelter or whatever is available? Look for exciting
and engaging things that you and she can add to your life instead of bemoaning
the fact that she keeps not being happy in one or the other of the two
scenarios she has experienced. Make a bigger and brighter life.
She says she misses art and you respond by signing her up for art classes? You
are doing the same thing as she is. When she comes to you with an interest you
enroll her in a course. Why be surprised if she thinks school is an appropriate
venue for exploring life?
Art is huge and vast and fabulous. Art, like science, is how you see the world.
What art does she like? Does she like modern art, things like Sarah Lucas' self
portraits or Banksy'swonderful public statements on politics and the world? Does
she know about that arena? You could get Exit Through the Gift Shop and think
about art as industry, if you wanted, or not. Could you go looking for art in
your environment? Find the little filigrees on buildings, the moments when the
builder broke out of the mould and danced a bit for his or her imagined
audience? Can you go to museums and explore art? Can you go walking around
interesting neighbourhoods and blocks of your city/town and look at
architectural styles? Have you seen this http://slinkachu.com/little-people?
Having seen this I often find spots where I would place little figures when I'm
in town. Maybe, if that interested your daughter (or you), you could collect
figures and have a bit of guerrilla art going in and around your local
town/city.
Linnaea likes to draw. She doesn't think of herself as an artist, or of her
drawings as art. But she enjoys drawing and working on getting the aspects of
the human face correct and she spends a fair bit of time working on it. She
uploads some of her drawings to a forum she's on and asks for help with the
details. For example, she couldn't figure out how to make it look like a woman
was sitting and she uploaded her picture and someone came along and downloaded
it and drew on a few notes and uploaded it and she was able to see how to handle
that problem and fixed the picture. I was and am impressed with her ability to
network for information. No classes, just interest and connections and a desire
to improve.
Schuyler
________________________________
From: Denise Jordan <denisejordan4@...>
To: unschooling <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, 18 October, 2011 0:15:30
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] public school
My daughter says she wants to go back to public school. She has been there
before and when she is there she wants to homeschool and of course when she's
here she wants to go back to school. she likes to see her friends but she
still sees her friends when we are at home. so how do we handle this. She says
she misses art, I have signed her up for art classes. she doesn't do well in
public school as far as grades, paying attention, getting up early, going to bed
early, homework, etc. Any suggestions? she is free to do whatever she wants
at home. thanks Denise
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
as a tool that your daughter is choosing to use to explore the world maybe you
can help her with her choice instead of hindering her because you see the
limitations of that tool. Lots of tools have limitations, that doesn't mean they
aren't useful or valuable."
I know my daughter well. To her school is being in a room with her 2 best friends. She hasn't always gottten the same teacher as her freinds so she doesn't see them at school any more than she does now. She isn't unhappy at home but Im sure she would like to be around kids more during the week. As far as art, she loves to draw, she is 9. Why would I not let her take an art class if that is something she is missing? Not a lot of opportunity in my rural area. It's easy to say what you would do but not completely knowing how things are with ones child you can't really say Im hindering her. We have done the back and forth with public school more than once. I don't want her or me living the life we did while in public school. having to get on to your child every morning to get her up, every afternoon to do homework and every night to go to bed, that's not the kind of life anybody would want their child to grow up in. there was to much arguing, crying, stubborness, etc. I for one don't want my child's childhood to be about getting angry and crying everyday. she only misses public school once in a while and is it really necessary to put her in and take her out every couple of weeks
To: [email protected]
From: s.waynforth@...
Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 10:21:25 +0100
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] public school
It may help for you to read www.sandradodd.com/schoolchoice. If you see school
as a tool that your daughter is choosing to use to explore the world maybe you
can help her with her choice instead of hindering her because you see the
limitations of that tool. Lots of tools have limitations, that doesn't mean they
aren't useful or valuable.
If she isn't happy at home or at school you should work to make either of those
places better for her. What is it she wants from school? Does she want more time
with other people? Can you get out more each week, each day? Can you go where
there are more people to be around? Can you get out and about regularly? Can you
find other things to do in your community? Other things to be engaged by, other
connections? Join a choir or a dance troupe or get involved with volunteering
at a local woods or animal shelter or whatever is available? Look for exciting
and engaging things that you and she can add to your life instead of bemoaning
the fact that she keeps not being happy in one or the other of the two
scenarios she has experienced. Make a bigger and brighter life.
She says she misses art and you respond by signing her up for art classes? You
are doing the same thing as she is. When she comes to you with an interest you
enroll her in a course. Why be surprised if she thinks school is an appropriate
venue for exploring life?
Art is huge and vast and fabulous. Art, like science, is how you see the world.
What art does she like? Does she like modern art, things like Sarah Lucas' self
portraits or Banksy'swonderful public statements on politics and the world? Does
she know about that arena? You could get Exit Through the Gift Shop and think
about art as industry, if you wanted, or not. Could you go looking for art in
your environment? Find the little filigrees on buildings, the moments when the
builder broke out of the mould and danced a bit for his or her imagined
audience? Can you go to museums and explore art? Can you go walking around
interesting neighbourhoods and blocks of your city/town and look at
architectural styles? Have you seen this http://slinkachu.com/little-people?
Having seen this I often find spots where I would place little figures when I'm
in town. Maybe, if that interested your daughter (or you), you could collect
figures and have a bit of guerrilla art going in and around your local
town/city.
Linnaea likes to draw. She doesn't think of herself as an artist, or of her
drawings as art. But she enjoys drawing and working on getting the aspects of
the human face correct and she spends a fair bit of time working on it. She
uploads some of her drawings to a forum she's on and asks for help with the
details. For example, she couldn't figure out how to make it look like a woman
was sitting and she uploaded her picture and someone came along and downloaded
it and drew on a few notes and uploaded it and she was able to see how to handle
that problem and fixed the picture. I was and am impressed with her ability to
network for information. No classes, just interest and connections and a desire
to improve.
Schuyler
________________________________
From: Denise Jordan <denisejordan4@...>
To: unschooling <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, 18 October, 2011 0:15:30
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] public school
My daughter says she wants to go back to public school. She has been there
before and when she is there she wants to homeschool and of course when she's
here she wants to go back to school. she likes to see her friends but she
still sees her friends when we are at home. so how do we handle this. She says
she misses art, I have signed her up for art classes. she doesn't do well in
public school as far as grades, paying attention, getting up early, going to bed
early, homework, etc. Any suggestions? she is free to do whatever she wants
at home. thanks Denise
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Tova
We use the library and I really recommend it as a social venue and basically in place of school because it offers everything that school does (and more) but in a more authentic sense (and the library doesn't give a child homework!)
I'll grab my laptop and my daughter and I will spend hours there in the late afternoon. There's so much to do, so many people to chat with, and so much to learn at a library.
--------
I know my daughter well. To her school is being in a room with her 2 best friends. She hasn't always gottten the same teacher as her freinds so she doesn't see them at school any more than she does now. She isn't unhappy at home but Im sure she would like to be around kids more during the week. As far as art, she loves to draw, she is 9. Why would I not let her take an art class if that is something she is missing? Not a lot of opportunity in my rural area. It's easy to say what you would do but not completely knowing how things are with ones child you can't really say Im hindering her. We have done the back and forth with public school more than once. I don't want her or me living the life we did while in public school. having to get on to your child every morning to get her up, every afternoon to do homework and every night to go to bed, that's not the kind of life anybody would want their child to grow up in. there was to much arguing,
crying, stubborness, etc. I for one don't want my child's childhood to be about getting angry and crying everyday. she only misses public school once in a while and is it really necessary to put her in and take her out every couple of weeks
I'll grab my laptop and my daughter and I will spend hours there in the late afternoon. There's so much to do, so many people to chat with, and so much to learn at a library.
--------
I know my daughter well. To her school is being in a room with her 2 best friends. She hasn't always gottten the same teacher as her freinds so she doesn't see them at school any more than she does now. She isn't unhappy at home but Im sure she would like to be around kids more during the week. As far as art, she loves to draw, she is 9. Why would I not let her take an art class if that is something she is missing? Not a lot of opportunity in my rural area. It's easy to say what you would do but not completely knowing how things are with ones child you can't really say Im hindering her. We have done the back and forth with public school more than once. I don't want her or me living the life we did while in public school. having to get on to your child every morning to get her up, every afternoon to do homework and every night to go to bed, that's not the kind of life anybody would want their child to grow up in. there was to much arguing,
crying, stubborness, etc. I for one don't want my child's childhood to be about getting angry and crying everyday. she only misses public school once in a while and is it really necessary to put her in and take her out every couple of weeks
Schuyler
I linked a couple of things in my post. Given your response " having to get on
to your child every morning to get her up, every afternoon to do homework and
every night to go to bed, that's not the kind of life anybody would want their
child to grow up in. there was to much arguing, crying, stubborness, etc." I'm
guessing that you didn't read this one: http://sandradodd.com/schoolchoice which
talks about letting a child experience school on their own terms. There is
usually more than one way to deal with a situation. It may help you to see more
options.
If your daughter is flipping back and forth as frequently as you say she is than
she isn't really finding a happy life in either place. In that situation I would
be looking for ways of making one or the other better, or look for a third
choice. You say that your rural life is a limiting factor, maybe you need to
address that aspect. We live in a rural location but go into town regularly and
have found local activities to engage with. The UK's rural is distinctly
different from the US, but when I've been in the wilds of Nebraska there were
folks to connect with and things to do.
Why wouldn't you start with exploring your local environment for art or using
the amazing resources that are on the internet? Why wouldn't you look at Georgia
O'Keefe's explorations of the natural world? Annie Dillard's discussions of the
beauty that is around you? Ansel Addams photography? The fabulous rice field
plantings in Japan http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ztF8xQpjQgA? The corn palace
in Mitchell South Dakota? Crop circles in the UK
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crop_circle or this wonderful site:
http://www.circlemakers.org? The beauty in a chrysalis or a spider web dotted
with dew? I could go on and on and on.
Yesterday, looking out the kitchen window, I saw the most amazing pre-storm
light. Because I've been using my film camera more lately in the run up to
resetting up a darkroom, I've been thinking about light. Because I use black and
white mostly I was interested in the interplay of colour and light in that
moment. David, my husband, shoots primarily colour film and if his camera had
been loaded I would have taken a picture of the red of the roof tiles against
the dark blue-grey of the storm clouds and the slate of the garage roof and the
green of the grape vines. It was a boring image in terms of composition, but
amazing in terms of colour and contrast and light. I didn't need to be anywhere
special to see that. The Telegraph has been running a series of photos of
British autumn pictures:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/gardening/gardeningpicturegalleries/8827345/Our-third-gallery-of-Telegraph-readers-pictures-of-autumn-colour-in-Britain.html.
These are small moments of wonder. Look for the wonder that is in your life.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/juliepersons/ is Julie Persons' flickr stream.
She's an unschooling mom who lives a very rural life and finds wonder all around
her.
Starting with a class is a problem if both of you are still deschooling.
Starting with a class means that you don't really grasp the notion that art
isn't a subject to be studies outside of the rest of living, it is a part of all
the rest of life. It means that you are looking at learning as something that is
accomplished best in a setting where one person tells a bunch of other people
what to explore and when and how and not as something that happens at it's best
when the individual is discovering the world in a fully engaged and interested
fashion. That doesn't mean you don't seek out other people with more knowledge,
but it does mean that you seek them out when you know what it is you want to
know rather then looking to them to tell you what it is you need to learn first
and second and third.
Starting with a class means that you are telling your daughter that school is
honestly the best way to gain information about the things that you are
interested in. Starting with a class supports a schooling relationship with
knowledge. It completely argues that art is a set of skills that need to be
obtained in order to accomplish art and that it is best obtained by going to
someone else to learn them. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/What_Is_Art%3F is an
entry on Leo Tolstoy's essay What Is Art? In his essay he writes "In order
correctly to define art, it is necessary, first of all, to cease to consider it
as a means to pleasure and to consider it as one of the conditions of human
life. Viewing it in this way we cannot fail to observe that art is one of the
means of intercourse between man and man."
(http://www.csulb.edu/~jvancamp/361r14.html). I may have to spend some of the
next week reading through the book:
http://www.archive.org/details/whatisart00tolsuoft. I really like that. I agree
with that. I believe that art is one of the conditions of human life. And
believing that makes the idea of a general class on art tuition an odd concept
to me. I can see seeking out tuition in some skill or another that was needed or
in a general approach to something. But I would do that only after I had
explored other avenues, most likely.
I'm my into my second year of playing ukulele. I'm not very good, but I'm having
fun. I've not taken a class or had any formal tuition, but I've watched lots of
videos and I've asked a banjo player and a guitarist or two to show me how they
handle one thing or another. I've never played an instrument before, well I had
brushes with piano, oboe and violin, but not long ones. If I were to approach
someone to teach me how to play I know that I would struggle with the top down
approach to knowledge acquisition. I learn best through my own exploration. I
learn best by following my own interests. I play far more than I expected that I
would. I am surprised that I am still curious after a year and a half of not
playing very well, but slowly and steadily better than before. If someone else
were defining my relationship with ukulele playing I am absolutely certain that
I would have gotten bored by now.
Schuyler
________________________________
From: Denise Jordan <denisejordan4@...>
To: unschooling <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, 18 October, 2011 12:15:58
Subject: RE: [unschoolingbasics] public school
" If you see school
as a tool that your daughter is choosing to use to explore the world maybe you
can help her with her choice instead of hindering her because you see the
limitations of that tool. Lots of tools have limitations, that doesn't mean they
aren't useful or valuable."
I know my daughter well. To her school is being in a room with her 2 best
friends. She hasn't always gottten the same teacher as her freinds so she
doesn't see them at school any more than she does now. She isn't unhappy at
home but Im sure she would like to be around kids more during the week. As far
as art, she loves to draw, she is 9. Why would I not let her take an art class
if that is something she is missing? Not a lot of opportunity in my rural
area. It's easy to say what you would do but not completely knowing how things
are with ones child you can't really say Im hindering her. We have done the
back and forth with public school more than once. I don't want her or me living
the life we did while in public school. having to get on to your child every
morning to get her up, every afternoon to do homework and every night to go to
bed, that's not the kind of life anybody would want their child to grow up in.
there was to much arguing, crying, stubborness, etc. I for one don't want my
child's childhood to be about getting angry and crying everyday. she only
misses public school once in a while and is it really necessary to put her in
and take her out every couple of weeks
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
to your child every morning to get her up, every afternoon to do homework and
every night to go to bed, that's not the kind of life anybody would want their
child to grow up in. there was to much arguing, crying, stubborness, etc." I'm
guessing that you didn't read this one: http://sandradodd.com/schoolchoice which
talks about letting a child experience school on their own terms. There is
usually more than one way to deal with a situation. It may help you to see more
options.
If your daughter is flipping back and forth as frequently as you say she is than
she isn't really finding a happy life in either place. In that situation I would
be looking for ways of making one or the other better, or look for a third
choice. You say that your rural life is a limiting factor, maybe you need to
address that aspect. We live in a rural location but go into town regularly and
have found local activities to engage with. The UK's rural is distinctly
different from the US, but when I've been in the wilds of Nebraska there were
folks to connect with and things to do.
>>" As far as art, she loves to draw, she is 9. Why would I not let her take anWhy would you stop with a class? Why would you start with a class?
>>art class if that is something she is missing?"<<
Why wouldn't you start with exploring your local environment for art or using
the amazing resources that are on the internet? Why wouldn't you look at Georgia
O'Keefe's explorations of the natural world? Annie Dillard's discussions of the
beauty that is around you? Ansel Addams photography? The fabulous rice field
plantings in Japan http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ztF8xQpjQgA? The corn palace
in Mitchell South Dakota? Crop circles in the UK
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crop_circle or this wonderful site:
http://www.circlemakers.org? The beauty in a chrysalis or a spider web dotted
with dew? I could go on and on and on.
Yesterday, looking out the kitchen window, I saw the most amazing pre-storm
light. Because I've been using my film camera more lately in the run up to
resetting up a darkroom, I've been thinking about light. Because I use black and
white mostly I was interested in the interplay of colour and light in that
moment. David, my husband, shoots primarily colour film and if his camera had
been loaded I would have taken a picture of the red of the roof tiles against
the dark blue-grey of the storm clouds and the slate of the garage roof and the
green of the grape vines. It was a boring image in terms of composition, but
amazing in terms of colour and contrast and light. I didn't need to be anywhere
special to see that. The Telegraph has been running a series of photos of
British autumn pictures:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/gardening/gardeningpicturegalleries/8827345/Our-third-gallery-of-Telegraph-readers-pictures-of-autumn-colour-in-Britain.html.
These are small moments of wonder. Look for the wonder that is in your life.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/juliepersons/ is Julie Persons' flickr stream.
She's an unschooling mom who lives a very rural life and finds wonder all around
her.
Starting with a class is a problem if both of you are still deschooling.
Starting with a class means that you don't really grasp the notion that art
isn't a subject to be studies outside of the rest of living, it is a part of all
the rest of life. It means that you are looking at learning as something that is
accomplished best in a setting where one person tells a bunch of other people
what to explore and when and how and not as something that happens at it's best
when the individual is discovering the world in a fully engaged and interested
fashion. That doesn't mean you don't seek out other people with more knowledge,
but it does mean that you seek them out when you know what it is you want to
know rather then looking to them to tell you what it is you need to learn first
and second and third.
Starting with a class means that you are telling your daughter that school is
honestly the best way to gain information about the things that you are
interested in. Starting with a class supports a schooling relationship with
knowledge. It completely argues that art is a set of skills that need to be
obtained in order to accomplish art and that it is best obtained by going to
someone else to learn them. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/What_Is_Art%3F is an
entry on Leo Tolstoy's essay What Is Art? In his essay he writes "In order
correctly to define art, it is necessary, first of all, to cease to consider it
as a means to pleasure and to consider it as one of the conditions of human
life. Viewing it in this way we cannot fail to observe that art is one of the
means of intercourse between man and man."
(http://www.csulb.edu/~jvancamp/361r14.html). I may have to spend some of the
next week reading through the book:
http://www.archive.org/details/whatisart00tolsuoft. I really like that. I agree
with that. I believe that art is one of the conditions of human life. And
believing that makes the idea of a general class on art tuition an odd concept
to me. I can see seeking out tuition in some skill or another that was needed or
in a general approach to something. But I would do that only after I had
explored other avenues, most likely.
I'm my into my second year of playing ukulele. I'm not very good, but I'm having
fun. I've not taken a class or had any formal tuition, but I've watched lots of
videos and I've asked a banjo player and a guitarist or two to show me how they
handle one thing or another. I've never played an instrument before, well I had
brushes with piano, oboe and violin, but not long ones. If I were to approach
someone to teach me how to play I know that I would struggle with the top down
approach to knowledge acquisition. I learn best through my own exploration. I
learn best by following my own interests. I play far more than I expected that I
would. I am surprised that I am still curious after a year and a half of not
playing very well, but slowly and steadily better than before. If someone else
were defining my relationship with ukulele playing I am absolutely certain that
I would have gotten bored by now.
Schuyler
________________________________
From: Denise Jordan <denisejordan4@...>
To: unschooling <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, 18 October, 2011 12:15:58
Subject: RE: [unschoolingbasics] public school
" If you see school
as a tool that your daughter is choosing to use to explore the world maybe you
can help her with her choice instead of hindering her because you see the
limitations of that tool. Lots of tools have limitations, that doesn't mean they
aren't useful or valuable."
I know my daughter well. To her school is being in a room with her 2 best
friends. She hasn't always gottten the same teacher as her freinds so she
doesn't see them at school any more than she does now. She isn't unhappy at
home but Im sure she would like to be around kids more during the week. As far
as art, she loves to draw, she is 9. Why would I not let her take an art class
if that is something she is missing? Not a lot of opportunity in my rural
area. It's easy to say what you would do but not completely knowing how things
are with ones child you can't really say Im hindering her. We have done the
back and forth with public school more than once. I don't want her or me living
the life we did while in public school. having to get on to your child every
morning to get her up, every afternoon to do homework and every night to go to
bed, that's not the kind of life anybody would want their child to grow up in.
there was to much arguing, crying, stubborness, etc. I for one don't want my
child's childhood to be about getting angry and crying everyday. she only
misses public school once in a while and is it really necessary to put her in
and take her out every couple of weeks
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Tova
"That doesn't mean you don't seek out other people with more knowledge,
but it does mean that you seek them out when you know what it is you
want to
know rather then looking to them to tell you what it is you need to
learn first
and second and third."
I like this.
It is very true.
but it does mean that you seek them out when you know what it is you
want to
know rather then looking to them to tell you what it is you need to
learn first
and second and third."
I like this.
It is very true.
Kelly Lovejoy
-----Original Message-----
From: Denise Jordan <denisejordan4@...>
I don't want her or me living the life we did while in public school. having to get on to your child every morning
to get her up, every afternoon to do homework and every night to go to bed, that's not the kind of life anybody would
want their child to grow up in.
-=-=-=-=-
I'd say that's EXACTLY the life the vast majority of American parents choose for their children. Seriously. We are the tiny, tiny (but growing) minority.
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
"There is no single effort more radical in its potential for saving the world than a transformation of the way we raise our children." Marianne Williamson
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
From: Denise Jordan <denisejordan4@...>
I don't want her or me living the life we did while in public school. having to get on to your child every morning
to get her up, every afternoon to do homework and every night to go to bed, that's not the kind of life anybody would
want their child to grow up in.
-=-=-=-=-
I'd say that's EXACTLY the life the vast majority of American parents choose for their children. Seriously. We are the tiny, tiny (but growing) minority.
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
"There is no single effort more radical in its potential for saving the world than a transformation of the way we raise our children." Marianne Williamson
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
Hmmm. . . does she really want to go to school or is it just something to say? How rural are you? Are there any other organized activities that might appeal to your 9-yo daughter and her friends? Girl Scouts or volunteering or 4H or something they could do together outside of school?
Just spitballing. . .
Nance
Just spitballing. . .
Nance
>
> I know my daughter well. To her school is being in a room with her 2 best friends. She hasn't always gottten the same teacher as her freinds so she doesn't see them at school any more than she does now. She isn't unhappy at home but Im sure she would like to be around kids more during the week.
Denise Jordan
"There is
usually more than one way to deal with a situation. It may help you to see more
options."
I have tried other options. again this goes back to until you live in a situation and are dealing with the child in question you just don't have any idea. We do go out and look at sunsets, starts, moon, flowers, etc. Will she watch a show on art, no. Nothing wrong with her going to an art class if that is what she wants to do. I didn't sign her up for the class without getting her opinion on it. She has a hard time making up her mind in doing anything. I appreciate all the links and ideas but what works for one doesn't work for all.
To: [email protected]
From: s.waynforth@...
Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 13:18:34 +0100
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] public school
I linked a couple of things in my post. Given your response " having to get on
to your child every morning to get her up, every afternoon to do homework and
every night to go to bed, that's not the kind of life anybody would want their
child to grow up in. there was to much arguing, crying, stubborness, etc." I'm
guessing that you didn't read this one: http://sandradodd.com/schoolchoice which
talks about letting a child experience school on their own terms. There is
usually more than one way to deal with a situation. It may help you to see more
options.
If your daughter is flipping back and forth as frequently as you say she is than
she isn't really finding a happy life in either place. In that situation I would
be looking for ways of making one or the other better, or look for a third
choice. You say that your rural life is a limiting factor, maybe you need to
address that aspect. We live in a rural location but go into town regularly and
have found local activities to engage with. The UK's rural is distinctly
different from the US, but when I've been in the wilds of Nebraska there were
folks to connect with and things to do.
Why wouldn't you start with exploring your local environment for art or using
the amazing resources that are on the internet? Why wouldn't you look at Georgia
O'Keefe's explorations of the natural world? Annie Dillard's discussions of the
beauty that is around you? Ansel Addams photography? The fabulous rice field
plantings in Japan http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ztF8xQpjQgA? The corn palace
in Mitchell South Dakota? Crop circles in the UK
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crop_circle or this wonderful site:
http://www.circlemakers.org? The beauty in a chrysalis or a spider web dotted
with dew? I could go on and on and on.
Yesterday, looking out the kitchen window, I saw the most amazing pre-storm
light. Because I've been using my film camera more lately in the run up to
resetting up a darkroom, I've been thinking about light. Because I use black and
white mostly I was interested in the interplay of colour and light in that
moment. David, my husband, shoots primarily colour film and if his camera had
been loaded I would have taken a picture of the red of the roof tiles against
the dark blue-grey of the storm clouds and the slate of the garage roof and the
green of the grape vines. It was a boring image in terms of composition, but
amazing in terms of colour and contrast and light. I didn't need to be anywhere
special to see that. The Telegraph has been running a series of photos of
British autumn pictures:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/gardening/gardeningpicturegalleries/8827345/Our-third-gallery-of-Telegraph-readers-pictures-of-autumn-colour-in-Britain.html.
These are small moments of wonder. Look for the wonder that is in your life.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/juliepersons/ is Julie Persons' flickr stream.
She's an unschooling mom who lives a very rural life and finds wonder all around
her.
Starting with a class is a problem if both of you are still deschooling.
Starting with a class means that you don't really grasp the notion that art
isn't a subject to be studies outside of the rest of living, it is a part of all
the rest of life. It means that you are looking at learning as something that is
accomplished best in a setting where one person tells a bunch of other people
what to explore and when and how and not as something that happens at it's best
when the individual is discovering the world in a fully engaged and interested
fashion. That doesn't mean you don't seek out other people with more knowledge,
but it does mean that you seek them out when you know what it is you want to
know rather then looking to them to tell you what it is you need to learn first
and second and third.
Starting with a class means that you are telling your daughter that school is
honestly the best way to gain information about the things that you are
interested in. Starting with a class supports a schooling relationship with
knowledge. It completely argues that art is a set of skills that need to be
obtained in order to accomplish art and that it is best obtained by going to
someone else to learn them. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/What_Is_Art%3F is an
entry on Leo Tolstoy's essay What Is Art? In his essay he writes "In order
correctly to define art, it is necessary, first of all, to cease to consider it
as a means to pleasure and to consider it as one of the conditions of human
life. Viewing it in this way we cannot fail to observe that art is one of the
means of intercourse between man and man."
(http://www.csulb.edu/~jvancamp/361r14.html). I may have to spend some of the
next week reading through the book:
http://www.archive.org/details/whatisart00tolsuoft. I really like that. I agree
with that. I believe that art is one of the conditions of human life. And
believing that makes the idea of a general class on art tuition an odd concept
to me. I can see seeking out tuition in some skill or another that was needed or
in a general approach to something. But I would do that only after I had
explored other avenues, most likely.
I'm my into my second year of playing ukulele. I'm not very good, but I'm having
fun. I've not taken a class or had any formal tuition, but I've watched lots of
videos and I've asked a banjo player and a guitarist or two to show me how they
handle one thing or another. I've never played an instrument before, well I had
brushes with piano, oboe and violin, but not long ones. If I were to approach
someone to teach me how to play I know that I would struggle with the top down
approach to knowledge acquisition. I learn best through my own exploration. I
learn best by following my own interests. I play far more than I expected that I
would. I am surprised that I am still curious after a year and a half of not
playing very well, but slowly and steadily better than before. If someone else
were defining my relationship with ukulele playing I am absolutely certain that
I would have gotten bored by now.
Schuyler
________________________________
From: Denise Jordan <denisejordan4@...>
To: unschooling <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, 18 October, 2011 12:15:58
Subject: RE: [unschoolingbasics] public school
" If you see school
as a tool that your daughter is choosing to use to explore the world maybe you
can help her with her choice instead of hindering her because you see the
limitations of that tool. Lots of tools have limitations, that doesn't mean they
aren't useful or valuable."
I know my daughter well. To her school is being in a room with her 2 best
friends. She hasn't always gottten the same teacher as her freinds so she
doesn't see them at school any more than she does now. She isn't unhappy at
home but Im sure she would like to be around kids more during the week. As far
as art, she loves to draw, she is 9. Why would I not let her take an art class
if that is something she is missing? Not a lot of opportunity in my rural
area. It's easy to say what you would do but not completely knowing how things
are with ones child you can't really say Im hindering her. We have done the
back and forth with public school more than once. I don't want her or me living
the life we did while in public school. having to get on to your child every
morning to get her up, every afternoon to do homework and every night to go to
bed, that's not the kind of life anybody would want their child to grow up in.
there was to much arguing, crying, stubborness, etc. I for one don't want my
child's childhood to be about getting angry and crying everyday. she only
misses public school once in a while and is it really necessary to put her in
and take her out every couple of weeks
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
usually more than one way to deal with a situation. It may help you to see more
options."
I have tried other options. again this goes back to until you live in a situation and are dealing with the child in question you just don't have any idea. We do go out and look at sunsets, starts, moon, flowers, etc. Will she watch a show on art, no. Nothing wrong with her going to an art class if that is what she wants to do. I didn't sign her up for the class without getting her opinion on it. She has a hard time making up her mind in doing anything. I appreciate all the links and ideas but what works for one doesn't work for all.
To: [email protected]
From: s.waynforth@...
Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 13:18:34 +0100
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] public school
I linked a couple of things in my post. Given your response " having to get on
to your child every morning to get her up, every afternoon to do homework and
every night to go to bed, that's not the kind of life anybody would want their
child to grow up in. there was to much arguing, crying, stubborness, etc." I'm
guessing that you didn't read this one: http://sandradodd.com/schoolchoice which
talks about letting a child experience school on their own terms. There is
usually more than one way to deal with a situation. It may help you to see more
options.
If your daughter is flipping back and forth as frequently as you say she is than
she isn't really finding a happy life in either place. In that situation I would
be looking for ways of making one or the other better, or look for a third
choice. You say that your rural life is a limiting factor, maybe you need to
address that aspect. We live in a rural location but go into town regularly and
have found local activities to engage with. The UK's rural is distinctly
different from the US, but when I've been in the wilds of Nebraska there were
folks to connect with and things to do.
>>" As far as art, she loves to draw, she is 9. Why would I not let her take anWhy would you stop with a class? Why would you start with a class?
>>art class if that is something she is missing?"<<
Why wouldn't you start with exploring your local environment for art or using
the amazing resources that are on the internet? Why wouldn't you look at Georgia
O'Keefe's explorations of the natural world? Annie Dillard's discussions of the
beauty that is around you? Ansel Addams photography? The fabulous rice field
plantings in Japan http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ztF8xQpjQgA? The corn palace
in Mitchell South Dakota? Crop circles in the UK
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crop_circle or this wonderful site:
http://www.circlemakers.org? The beauty in a chrysalis or a spider web dotted
with dew? I could go on and on and on.
Yesterday, looking out the kitchen window, I saw the most amazing pre-storm
light. Because I've been using my film camera more lately in the run up to
resetting up a darkroom, I've been thinking about light. Because I use black and
white mostly I was interested in the interplay of colour and light in that
moment. David, my husband, shoots primarily colour film and if his camera had
been loaded I would have taken a picture of the red of the roof tiles against
the dark blue-grey of the storm clouds and the slate of the garage roof and the
green of the grape vines. It was a boring image in terms of composition, but
amazing in terms of colour and contrast and light. I didn't need to be anywhere
special to see that. The Telegraph has been running a series of photos of
British autumn pictures:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/gardening/gardeningpicturegalleries/8827345/Our-third-gallery-of-Telegraph-readers-pictures-of-autumn-colour-in-Britain.html.
These are small moments of wonder. Look for the wonder that is in your life.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/juliepersons/ is Julie Persons' flickr stream.
She's an unschooling mom who lives a very rural life and finds wonder all around
her.
Starting with a class is a problem if both of you are still deschooling.
Starting with a class means that you don't really grasp the notion that art
isn't a subject to be studies outside of the rest of living, it is a part of all
the rest of life. It means that you are looking at learning as something that is
accomplished best in a setting where one person tells a bunch of other people
what to explore and when and how and not as something that happens at it's best
when the individual is discovering the world in a fully engaged and interested
fashion. That doesn't mean you don't seek out other people with more knowledge,
but it does mean that you seek them out when you know what it is you want to
know rather then looking to them to tell you what it is you need to learn first
and second and third.
Starting with a class means that you are telling your daughter that school is
honestly the best way to gain information about the things that you are
interested in. Starting with a class supports a schooling relationship with
knowledge. It completely argues that art is a set of skills that need to be
obtained in order to accomplish art and that it is best obtained by going to
someone else to learn them. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/What_Is_Art%3F is an
entry on Leo Tolstoy's essay What Is Art? In his essay he writes "In order
correctly to define art, it is necessary, first of all, to cease to consider it
as a means to pleasure and to consider it as one of the conditions of human
life. Viewing it in this way we cannot fail to observe that art is one of the
means of intercourse between man and man."
(http://www.csulb.edu/~jvancamp/361r14.html). I may have to spend some of the
next week reading through the book:
http://www.archive.org/details/whatisart00tolsuoft. I really like that. I agree
with that. I believe that art is one of the conditions of human life. And
believing that makes the idea of a general class on art tuition an odd concept
to me. I can see seeking out tuition in some skill or another that was needed or
in a general approach to something. But I would do that only after I had
explored other avenues, most likely.
I'm my into my second year of playing ukulele. I'm not very good, but I'm having
fun. I've not taken a class or had any formal tuition, but I've watched lots of
videos and I've asked a banjo player and a guitarist or two to show me how they
handle one thing or another. I've never played an instrument before, well I had
brushes with piano, oboe and violin, but not long ones. If I were to approach
someone to teach me how to play I know that I would struggle with the top down
approach to knowledge acquisition. I learn best through my own exploration. I
learn best by following my own interests. I play far more than I expected that I
would. I am surprised that I am still curious after a year and a half of not
playing very well, but slowly and steadily better than before. If someone else
were defining my relationship with ukulele playing I am absolutely certain that
I would have gotten bored by now.
Schuyler
________________________________
From: Denise Jordan <denisejordan4@...>
To: unschooling <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, 18 October, 2011 12:15:58
Subject: RE: [unschoolingbasics] public school
" If you see school
as a tool that your daughter is choosing to use to explore the world maybe you
can help her with her choice instead of hindering her because you see the
limitations of that tool. Lots of tools have limitations, that doesn't mean they
aren't useful or valuable."
I know my daughter well. To her school is being in a room with her 2 best
friends. She hasn't always gottten the same teacher as her freinds so she
doesn't see them at school any more than she does now. She isn't unhappy at
home but Im sure she would like to be around kids more during the week. As far
as art, she loves to draw, she is 9. Why would I not let her take an art class
if that is something she is missing? Not a lot of opportunity in my rural
area. It's easy to say what you would do but not completely knowing how things
are with ones child you can't really say Im hindering her. We have done the
back and forth with public school more than once. I don't want her or me living
the life we did while in public school. having to get on to your child every
morning to get her up, every afternoon to do homework and every night to go to
bed, that's not the kind of life anybody would want their child to grow up in.
there was to much arguing, crying, stubborness, etc. I for one don't want my
child's childhood to be about getting angry and crying everyday. she only
misses public school once in a while and is it really necessary to put her in
and take her out every couple of weeks
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce Fetteroll
On Oct 18, 2011, at 7:15 AM, Denise Jordan wrote:
share and give you feedback on the picture the words are painting.
People's phrasing reveals more than they realize, sometimes more than
what they're able to see themselves.
No one here can tell you what's going on in your house, but people can
see things in how you're choosing to paint the picture that ring alarm
bells and then point them out.
When you said she likes art in school the only thing you mentioned --
suggesting that in your mind that was the best of your responses to
her need -- you said you signed her up for a class.
A class is one of thousands of ways to explore art. It shouldn't be
the first thing to think of when unschooling. (Nor should it be the
last. It will depend on the child.) But especially if you're
struggling with a daughter wanting to jump in and out of school, right
now look for the *other* opportunities that abound in life to explore
art so she isn't thinking the very very best way to explore art is in
a classroom from a teacher. Let her experience what she *can't* get in
school.
Find out what it is your daughter likes about school and provide more
of that. If it's friends, find ways for her to connect with other
kids*. Invite some over. Invite several on an outing to collect
leave, take a walk, go through a corn maze, pick out and carve
pumpkins. (Loads of things to do in the fall!) Invite them over for an
activity. Invite them over just to play :-)
*(A class *could* be a way to connect with other kids but especially
with your daughter *right now* I'd think of other ways. My daughter
found it hard to connect with other kids in a class. Though she did
enjoy being in a room full of people who enjoyed art. In fact she
enjoyed adult art and writing get togethers just as much or more as
kid classes.)
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> but not completely knowing how things are with ones child you can'tNo but we can read the words, phrases and ideas you're choosing to
> really say Im hindering her.
share and give you feedback on the picture the words are painting.
People's phrasing reveals more than they realize, sometimes more than
what they're able to see themselves.
No one here can tell you what's going on in your house, but people can
see things in how you're choosing to paint the picture that ring alarm
bells and then point them out.
When you said she likes art in school the only thing you mentioned --
suggesting that in your mind that was the best of your responses to
her need -- you said you signed her up for a class.
A class is one of thousands of ways to explore art. It shouldn't be
the first thing to think of when unschooling. (Nor should it be the
last. It will depend on the child.) But especially if you're
struggling with a daughter wanting to jump in and out of school, right
now look for the *other* opportunities that abound in life to explore
art so she isn't thinking the very very best way to explore art is in
a classroom from a teacher. Let her experience what she *can't* get in
school.
Find out what it is your daughter likes about school and provide more
of that. If it's friends, find ways for her to connect with other
kids*. Invite some over. Invite several on an outing to collect
leave, take a walk, go through a corn maze, pick out and carve
pumpkins. (Loads of things to do in the fall!) Invite them over for an
activity. Invite them over just to play :-)
*(A class *could* be a way to connect with other kids but especially
with your daughter *right now* I'd think of other ways. My daughter
found it hard to connect with other kids in a class. Though she did
enjoy being in a room full of people who enjoyed art. In fact she
enjoyed adult art and writing get togethers just as much or more as
kid classes.)
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Denise Jordan
"does she really want to go to school or is it just something to say?"
thank you Nance. My thoughts exactly.
To: [email protected]
From: marbleface@...
Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 14:19:26 +0000
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: public school
Hmmm. . . does she really want to go to school or is it just something to say? How rural are you? Are there any other organized activities that might appeal to your 9-yo daughter and her friends? Girl Scouts or volunteering or 4H or something they could do together outside of school?
Just spitballing. . .
Nance
thank you Nance. My thoughts exactly.
To: [email protected]
From: marbleface@...
Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 14:19:26 +0000
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: public school
Hmmm. . . does she really want to go to school or is it just something to say? How rural are you? Are there any other organized activities that might appeal to your 9-yo daughter and her friends? Girl Scouts or volunteering or 4H or something they could do together outside of school?
Just spitballing. . .
Nance
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> I know my daughter well. To her school is being in a room with her 2 best friends. She hasn't always gottten the same teacher as her freinds so she doesn't see them at school any more than she does now. She isn't unhappy at home but Im sure she would like to be around kids more during the week.
Joyce Fetteroll
On Oct 18, 2011, at 11:25 AM, Denise Jordan wrote:
options"?
School is one option. "Other options" are thousands of things plus
variations on those thousands of things.
I know you're getting frustrated.
It's easy to say no. It's really hard to see life from new points of
view so that the problem looks different. And that's what unschooling
calls for.
We can't hand you the answer. We can *show* you new points of view. We
can *show* you what putting those new points of view into practice can
look like in other families. It's up to you to shift your view. It's
up to you to play with those ideas, let them spark other ideas. See
the ideas in new ways.
Right now you're stuck in your vision of what life needs to be. It
might help to back away from the problem, let life play out, let ideas
swirl.
*Be* with your daughter. Do fun things together. Find other kids for
her to do fun things with. Yes, it's hard. But neither the hardness
nor your inability so far to find ways to meet her needs make her less
needful. You can't change her. You can only change yourself.
way art is for kids as far as she knows. It's up to you to show her
the wide open possibilities.
What are her favorite things in art class?
around. To look at their child rather than out at the world.
The ideas offered are what turned around thinking can be like for
other unschoolers. They're not intended as "plug and play" ideas.
(Though it's convenient when an idea can be that.) They're
springboards to get you thinking in new ways.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> I have tried other options.So, what does that mean? Are there just two choices? School and "other
options"?
School is one option. "Other options" are thousands of things plus
variations on those thousands of things.
I know you're getting frustrated.
It's easy to say no. It's really hard to see life from new points of
view so that the problem looks different. And that's what unschooling
calls for.
We can't hand you the answer. We can *show* you new points of view. We
can *show* you what putting those new points of view into practice can
look like in other families. It's up to you to shift your view. It's
up to you to play with those ideas, let them spark other ideas. See
the ideas in new ways.
Right now you're stuck in your vision of what life needs to be. It
might help to back away from the problem, let life play out, let ideas
swirl.
*Be* with your daughter. Do fun things together. Find other kids for
her to do fun things with. Yes, it's hard. But neither the hardness
nor your inability so far to find ways to meet her needs make her less
needful. You can't change her. You can only change yourself.
> I didn't sign her up for the class without getting her opinion on it.Why wouldn't she think of class as the way to explore art? That's the
way art is for kids as far as she knows. It's up to you to show her
the wide open possibilities.
What are her favorite things in art class?
> She has a hard time making up her mind in doing anything. IThe primary purpose of the list is to help people turn their thinking
> appreciate all the links and ideas but what works for one doesn't
> work for all.
around. To look at their child rather than out at the world.
The ideas offered are what turned around thinking can be like for
other unschoolers. They're not intended as "plug and play" ideas.
(Though it's convenient when an idea can be that.) They're
springboards to get you thinking in new ways.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Ulrike Haupt
Hi Denise
One sentencejumped out at me
She has a hard time making up her mind in doing anything.
To me this sounds still so much of a person who is either not fully within their own
authority to come to their own conclusions and decisions i.e. she may feel under
pressure to perform OR she just has her own way of coming to decisions and conclusions
which does not necessarily conform to your style and time line.
I for instance am a snap decision maker and I know of at least ten people around me who
should never make spontaneous decisions but sleep and maybe really sleep (like days to
weeks) on anything a lot before they know what is right for them at the time.
For these people the opportunity does not go away until they come to their conclusion.
For me it is another matter. But I know enough about this process already to give others a
lot of free space (time) when it comes to deciding what it is they really, really want
for themselves.
I have one granddaughter (4 ½) who is another snap decider. I can so relate to her. But
arranging our home front around her decisions, when all the others are still making up
their minds induces a lot of drama on a daily basis. (She has already shopped the ice
cream while the others still wonder if a pizza or a home cooked would be an option.) If
you are a snap decider and your daughter is not you might put a lot of pressure on her
unintended of course. <grin> I know that I do and I see it with Ariella every day.
Or, the other idea is that she still needs decompression from having to do. Can you give
her space to do nothing and more nothing and even more nothing? And dont jump through
hoops when she mentions that it might be nice to do X and provide the full spectrum of
becoming a master at X immeditely. Finding a way to do things your own way has so much
potential for joy and achievement. Just because someone likes to draw does not mean that
they need structured art classes.
Blissings
Ulrike
from Namibia somewhere in Africa where I did take off early from work today two
hours! To do a little personal decompression. It was a snap decision, though.
PS Please forgive me if I misunderstood you. I do tend to read things into words that
were not intended.
__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 6553
(20111018) __________
The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
http://www.eset.com
__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 6553
(20111018) __________
The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
http://www.eset.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
One sentencejumped out at me
She has a hard time making up her mind in doing anything.
To me this sounds still so much of a person who is either not fully within their own
authority to come to their own conclusions and decisions i.e. she may feel under
pressure to perform OR she just has her own way of coming to decisions and conclusions
which does not necessarily conform to your style and time line.
I for instance am a snap decision maker and I know of at least ten people around me who
should never make spontaneous decisions but sleep and maybe really sleep (like days to
weeks) on anything a lot before they know what is right for them at the time.
For these people the opportunity does not go away until they come to their conclusion.
For me it is another matter. But I know enough about this process already to give others a
lot of free space (time) when it comes to deciding what it is they really, really want
for themselves.
I have one granddaughter (4 ½) who is another snap decider. I can so relate to her. But
arranging our home front around her decisions, when all the others are still making up
their minds induces a lot of drama on a daily basis. (She has already shopped the ice
cream while the others still wonder if a pizza or a home cooked would be an option.) If
you are a snap decider and your daughter is not you might put a lot of pressure on her
unintended of course. <grin> I know that I do and I see it with Ariella every day.
Or, the other idea is that she still needs decompression from having to do. Can you give
her space to do nothing and more nothing and even more nothing? And dont jump through
hoops when she mentions that it might be nice to do X and provide the full spectrum of
becoming a master at X immeditely. Finding a way to do things your own way has so much
potential for joy and achievement. Just because someone likes to draw does not mean that
they need structured art classes.
Blissings
Ulrike
from Namibia somewhere in Africa where I did take off early from work today two
hours! To do a little personal decompression. It was a snap decision, though.
PS Please forgive me if I misunderstood you. I do tend to read things into words that
were not intended.
__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 6553
(20111018) __________
The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
http://www.eset.com
__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 6553
(20111018) __________
The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
http://www.eset.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Denise Jordan
" Be* with your daughter. Do fun things together. Find other kids for
her to do fun things with."
I am with my daughter and we do fun things. She has kids to play with all the time. We do what the kids want when they want 99% of the time. we can't always do, go and be everywhere all the time. My daughter has all the art supplies she wants here at home and we find things to draw. Im not artistic but i do draw pics with her and we figure out what looks best etc. I feel like I am doing all the right things so i get confused when she does say she wants to go back to school. is she just trying me to see how I will react? I ask her what she misses about school but when we try and do the things here she says she misses she doesnt' want to do them. that's where i don't know what to do.
To: [email protected]
From: jfetteroll@...
Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 11:39:14 -0400
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] public school
her to do fun things with."
I am with my daughter and we do fun things. She has kids to play with all the time. We do what the kids want when they want 99% of the time. we can't always do, go and be everywhere all the time. My daughter has all the art supplies she wants here at home and we find things to draw. Im not artistic but i do draw pics with her and we figure out what looks best etc. I feel like I am doing all the right things so i get confused when she does say she wants to go back to school. is she just trying me to see how I will react? I ask her what she misses about school but when we try and do the things here she says she misses she doesnt' want to do them. that's where i don't know what to do.
To: [email protected]
From: jfetteroll@...
Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 11:39:14 -0400
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] public school
On Oct 18, 2011, at 11:25 AM, Denise Jordan wrote:
> I have tried other options.
So, what does that mean? Are there just two choices? School and "other
options"?
School is one option. "Other options" are thousands of things plus
variations on those thousands of things.
I know you're getting frustrated.
It's easy to say no. It's really hard to see life from new points of
view so that the problem looks different. And that's what unschooling
calls for.
We can't hand you the answer. We can *show* you new points of view. We
can *show* you what putting those new points of view into practice can
look like in other families. It's up to you to shift your view. It's
up to you to play with those ideas, let them spark other ideas. See
the ideas in new ways.
Right now you're stuck in your vision of what life needs to be. It
might help to back away from the problem, let life play out, let ideas
swirl.
*Be* with your daughter. Do fun things together. Find other kids for
her to do fun things with. Yes, it's hard. But neither the hardness
nor your inability so far to find ways to meet her needs make her less
needful. You can't change her. You can only change yourself.
> I didn't sign her up for the class without getting her opinion on it.
Why wouldn't she think of class as the way to explore art? That's the
way art is for kids as far as she knows. It's up to you to show her
the wide open possibilities.
What are her favorite things in art class?
> She has a hard time making up her mind in doing anything. I
> appreciate all the links and ideas but what works for one doesn't
> work for all.
The primary purpose of the list is to help people turn their thinking
around. To look at their child rather than out at the world.
The ideas offered are what turned around thinking can be like for
other unschoolers. They're not intended as "plug and play" ideas.
(Though it's convenient when an idea can be that.) They're
springboards to get you thinking in new ways.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Denise Jordan
Can you give
her space to do nothing and more nothing and even more nothing? And don�t jump through
hoops when she mentions that it might be nice to do X and provide the full spectrum of
becoming a master at X immeditely. Finding a way to do things your own way has so much
potential for joy and achievement. Just because someone likes to draw does not mean that
they need structured art classes.
She has the space to do nothing. she does what she's wants all day long. she wants to take an art class. Im not asking her or even wanting her to become a master at anything. she does do things her own way. I learned along time ago she has a different thought process than me or many other kids I know. she is free to be who she is. I do not limit that.
To: [email protected]
From: rica@...
Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 17:53:47 +0200
Subject: RE: [unschoolingbasics] public school
Hi Denise
One sentencejumped out at me
�She has a hard time making up her mind in doing anything. �
To me this sounds still so much of a person who is either not fully within their own
authority to come to their own conclusions and decisions � i.e. she may feel under
pressure to perform OR she just has her own way of coming to decisions and conclusions
which does not necessarily conform to your style and time line.
I for instance am a �snap decision maker� and I know of at least ten people around me who
should never make spontaneous decisions but sleep and maybe really sleep (like days to
weeks) on anything a lot before they know what is right for them at the time.
For these people the opportunity does not go away until they come to their conclusion.
For me it is another matter. But I know enough about this process already to give others a
lot of free space (time) when it comes to deciding what it is �they� really, really want
for themselves.
I have one granddaughter (4 �) who is another snap decider. I can so relate to her. But
arranging our home front around her decisions, when all the others are still making up
their minds induces a lot of drama on a daily basis. (She has already �shopped� the ice
cream while the others still wonder if a pizza or a home cooked would be an option.) If
you are a snap decider and your daughter is not you might put a lot of pressure on her �
unintended of course. <grin> I know that I do and I see it with Ariella every day.
Or, the other idea is that she still needs decompression from �having to do�. Can you give
her space to do nothing and more nothing and even more nothing? And don�t jump through
hoops when she mentions that it might be nice to do X and provide the full spectrum of
becoming a master at X immeditely. Finding a way to do things your own way has so much
potential for joy and achievement. Just because someone likes to draw does not mean that
they need structured art classes.
Blissings
Ulrike
from Namibia � somewhere in Africa � where I did take off early from work today � two
hours! To do a little personal decompression. It was a snap decision, though.
PS � Please forgive me if I misunderstood you. I do tend to read things into words that
were not intended.
__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 6553
(20111018) __________
The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
http://www.eset.com
__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 6553
(20111018) __________
The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
http://www.eset.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
her space to do nothing and more nothing and even more nothing? And don�t jump through
hoops when she mentions that it might be nice to do X and provide the full spectrum of
becoming a master at X immeditely. Finding a way to do things your own way has so much
potential for joy and achievement. Just because someone likes to draw does not mean that
they need structured art classes.
She has the space to do nothing. she does what she's wants all day long. she wants to take an art class. Im not asking her or even wanting her to become a master at anything. she does do things her own way. I learned along time ago she has a different thought process than me or many other kids I know. she is free to be who she is. I do not limit that.
To: [email protected]
From: rica@...
Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 17:53:47 +0200
Subject: RE: [unschoolingbasics] public school
Hi Denise
One sentencejumped out at me
�She has a hard time making up her mind in doing anything. �
To me this sounds still so much of a person who is either not fully within their own
authority to come to their own conclusions and decisions � i.e. she may feel under
pressure to perform OR she just has her own way of coming to decisions and conclusions
which does not necessarily conform to your style and time line.
I for instance am a �snap decision maker� and I know of at least ten people around me who
should never make spontaneous decisions but sleep and maybe really sleep (like days to
weeks) on anything a lot before they know what is right for them at the time.
For these people the opportunity does not go away until they come to their conclusion.
For me it is another matter. But I know enough about this process already to give others a
lot of free space (time) when it comes to deciding what it is �they� really, really want
for themselves.
I have one granddaughter (4 �) who is another snap decider. I can so relate to her. But
arranging our home front around her decisions, when all the others are still making up
their minds induces a lot of drama on a daily basis. (She has already �shopped� the ice
cream while the others still wonder if a pizza or a home cooked would be an option.) If
you are a snap decider and your daughter is not you might put a lot of pressure on her �
unintended of course. <grin> I know that I do and I see it with Ariella every day.
Or, the other idea is that she still needs decompression from �having to do�. Can you give
her space to do nothing and more nothing and even more nothing? And don�t jump through
hoops when she mentions that it might be nice to do X and provide the full spectrum of
becoming a master at X immeditely. Finding a way to do things your own way has so much
potential for joy and achievement. Just because someone likes to draw does not mean that
they need structured art classes.
Blissings
Ulrike
from Namibia � somewhere in Africa � where I did take off early from work today � two
hours! To do a little personal decompression. It was a snap decision, though.
PS � Please forgive me if I misunderstood you. I do tend to read things into words that
were not intended.
__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 6553
(20111018) __________
The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
http://www.eset.com
__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 6553
(20111018) __________
The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
http://www.eset.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce Fetteroll
I just realized you've only been doing this for a very few weeks.
You're all still getting your sea legs.
Rather than trying to fix the problem focus on her comfort and
creating a comfortable nest. She's still deschooling. As are you. It's
expected that she will be missing the good parts of school.
If someone has a broken leg, it's not something you can fix. But you
can do whatever you can to make them and their environment as cozy for
recover as possible. That doesn't make the itchiness and pain go away.
But it makes it more comfortable to live with it.
Joyce
You're all still getting your sea legs.
Rather than trying to fix the problem focus on her comfort and
creating a comfortable nest. She's still deschooling. As are you. It's
expected that she will be missing the good parts of school.
If someone has a broken leg, it's not something you can fix. But you
can do whatever you can to make them and their environment as cozy for
recover as possible. That doesn't make the itchiness and pain go away.
But it makes it more comfortable to live with it.
Joyce
Schuyler
>>is she just trying me to see how I will react?<<I really doubt it. My guess is that she doesn't know what to do. My guess is
that she is struggling to figure out what to do with herself. School frames so
much of someone's time, so much of someone's thinking that it must feel like a
giant vacuum of space and time when it is gone. When she talks about going back
to school the most is she tired? Is she hungry? Is she bored? Can you see a
pattern in her moments of thinking that something else would be better than what
is? If you can't in this moment can you begin to look for one? If there is a
pattern, try and deal with that. Not in an obvious and overhanded way, but in a
gentle and caring way. Offer her food when she's hungry; change the mood, the
activity when she's bored; cuddle up and watch a movie, do a slower, quieter
thing when she's tired. See if those acts move her away from a buzzy unhappiness
with her right now moments. See if taking care of those more basic needs help
her to enjoy her life without school more.
Schuyler
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Schuyler
I would also add that she may feel like she's being asked to own her education
in a way that she doesn't feel capable of doing. I have no way of knowing. But
she may see the burden of becoming a fully functioning adult as resting on her 9
year old shoulders in a way that makes her feel as though playing at home isn't
preparing for it as well as going to school would do. School has done a fabulous
job of convincing folks that it is fit to purpose. Among those folks are the
children attending. She may not be seeing how what she is doing now, whatever
she wants, whenever she wants (99% of the time--which is phenomenal, there is no
way that we achieve that level of response to Simon and Linnaea), is going to
get her to the goal that seemed to be so very important when she was at school.
So important that you were, even if for a short time, putting her through what
you described as this: "having to get on to your child every morning to get her
up, every afternoon to do homework and every night to go to bed, that's not the
kind of life anybody would want their child to grow up in. there was to much
arguing, crying, stubborness, etc. I for one don't want my child's childhood
to be about getting angry and crying everyday." It is hard to have that be a
part of what is so important, I imagine, and to have it be completely taken away
without a similar system being put in place. Maybe she doesn't know why it isn't
the system that you are using anymore. Maybe she doesn't believe that it can't
be important.
Schuyler
________________________________
From: Schuyler <s.waynforth@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tuesday, 18 October, 2011 17:45:28
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] public school
that she is struggling to figure out what to do with herself. School frames so
much of someone's time, so much of someone's thinking that it must feel like a
giant vacuum of space and time when it is gone. When she talks about going back
to school the most is she tired? Is she hungry? Is she bored? Can you see a
pattern in her moments of thinking that something else would be better than what
is? If you can't in this moment can you begin to look for one? If there is a
pattern, try and deal with that. Not in an obvious and overhanded way, but in a
gentle and caring way. Offer her food when she's hungry; change the mood, the
activity when she's bored; cuddle up and watch a movie, do a slower, quieter
thing when she's tired. See if those acts move her away from a buzzy unhappiness
with her right now moments. See if taking care of those more basic needs help
her to enjoy her life without school more.
Schuyler
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
in a way that she doesn't feel capable of doing. I have no way of knowing. But
she may see the burden of becoming a fully functioning adult as resting on her 9
year old shoulders in a way that makes her feel as though playing at home isn't
preparing for it as well as going to school would do. School has done a fabulous
job of convincing folks that it is fit to purpose. Among those folks are the
children attending. She may not be seeing how what she is doing now, whatever
she wants, whenever she wants (99% of the time--which is phenomenal, there is no
way that we achieve that level of response to Simon and Linnaea), is going to
get her to the goal that seemed to be so very important when she was at school.
So important that you were, even if for a short time, putting her through what
you described as this: "having to get on to your child every morning to get her
up, every afternoon to do homework and every night to go to bed, that's not the
kind of life anybody would want their child to grow up in. there was to much
arguing, crying, stubborness, etc. I for one don't want my child's childhood
to be about getting angry and crying everyday." It is hard to have that be a
part of what is so important, I imagine, and to have it be completely taken away
without a similar system being put in place. Maybe she doesn't know why it isn't
the system that you are using anymore. Maybe she doesn't believe that it can't
be important.
Schuyler
________________________________
From: Schuyler <s.waynforth@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tuesday, 18 October, 2011 17:45:28
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] public school
>>is she just trying me to see how I will react?<<I really doubt it. My guess is that she doesn't know what to do. My guess is
that she is struggling to figure out what to do with herself. School frames so
much of someone's time, so much of someone's thinking that it must feel like a
giant vacuum of space and time when it is gone. When she talks about going back
to school the most is she tired? Is she hungry? Is she bored? Can you see a
pattern in her moments of thinking that something else would be better than what
is? If you can't in this moment can you begin to look for one? If there is a
pattern, try and deal with that. Not in an obvious and overhanded way, but in a
gentle and caring way. Offer her food when she's hungry; change the mood, the
activity when she's bored; cuddle up and watch a movie, do a slower, quieter
thing when she's tired. See if those acts move her away from a buzzy unhappiness
with her right now moments. See if taking care of those more basic needs help
her to enjoy her life without school more.
Schuyler
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Ulrike Haupt
Hi Denise
I read your reply and I am feeling a little bit 'put in my place'.
As I was contemplating my response, of which I am not sure that I should post it, but I'll
do it anyway, I asked what it is that you are really asking for?
I also remember a sentence where you say, paraphrased, jumpig in and out of school every
couple of weeks.
Is it that this is not really about your daughter who is doing fine even with some
boulders along the way but about your good intentions about her?
If that is the case than I am off the bandwaggon this very moment because I do not intend
to rattle anyone's good intentions. I got my fingers burnt on that just this afternoon by
my husband. <grin> Well, I have good intentions and he was so friendly as to give me flak.
If you truly think that you know that it is not good for your daughter to hop in andout of
school or classs or whatever then you are right. You know your daughter better than we do.
I did not even contemplate sending my youngest son back t school for a day after I
realized what it did to him for the short while that he was indeed attending. Even when he
mentioned about five years later that he thought it would be better for him to go back.
I just 'knew' that he would suffer as bad as before and that it would take even longer for
him to become his healthy self again even after a short term at public (or private)
school. But I did not ask this list for advice, because I knew (better) already!
Learning whatever he learned out ofschool did not come that easy to my son all the time.
But that is not the issue. His emotional health away from the school environment, even if
it contained his only friend, is more important that his nightmares, sleep issues,
accidents, colds, stomach upsets and other things that are related to his schooling
experience.
Though, I know that there are children who are ok or even thrive.
Others have commented enough,too.
I really did not want to tell you how or what. My post was about decision making
authority.
Ulrike
__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 6553
(20111018) __________
The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
http://www.eset.com
I read your reply and I am feeling a little bit 'put in my place'.
As I was contemplating my response, of which I am not sure that I should post it, but I'll
do it anyway, I asked what it is that you are really asking for?
I also remember a sentence where you say, paraphrased, jumpig in and out of school every
couple of weeks.
Is it that this is not really about your daughter who is doing fine even with some
boulders along the way but about your good intentions about her?
If that is the case than I am off the bandwaggon this very moment because I do not intend
to rattle anyone's good intentions. I got my fingers burnt on that just this afternoon by
my husband. <grin> Well, I have good intentions and he was so friendly as to give me flak.
If you truly think that you know that it is not good for your daughter to hop in andout of
school or classs or whatever then you are right. You know your daughter better than we do.
I did not even contemplate sending my youngest son back t school for a day after I
realized what it did to him for the short while that he was indeed attending. Even when he
mentioned about five years later that he thought it would be better for him to go back.
I just 'knew' that he would suffer as bad as before and that it would take even longer for
him to become his healthy self again even after a short term at public (or private)
school. But I did not ask this list for advice, because I knew (better) already!
Learning whatever he learned out ofschool did not come that easy to my son all the time.
But that is not the issue. His emotional health away from the school environment, even if
it contained his only friend, is more important that his nightmares, sleep issues,
accidents, colds, stomach upsets and other things that are related to his schooling
experience.
Though, I know that there are children who are ok or even thrive.
Others have commented enough,too.
I really did not want to tell you how or what. My post was about decision making
authority.
Ulrike
__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 6553
(20111018) __________
The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
http://www.eset.com
Denise Jordan
thank you Schuyler. I do notice its when she is bored but then she's on to something else. Just want to make the right decisions.
Denise Jordan
Hi Ulrike, I wasn't meaning to put you in your place but I do understand this comment you made " I did not ask this list for advice, because I knew (better) already!
I am learning as some are helping you see things different some make you feel as though you aren't doing your job as a parent, if that is the correct words. Advice is good but you can't base every child on another. I have issues with my daughter that others may not have but that's neither here nor there. I do appreciate the advice because I am confused myself.
I am learning as some are helping you see things different some make you feel as though you aren't doing your job as a parent, if that is the correct words. Advice is good but you can't base every child on another. I have issues with my daughter that others may not have but that's neither here nor there. I do appreciate the advice because I am confused myself.
Angela
>>she only misses public school once in a while and is it really necessary to put her in and take her out every couple of weeks<<Is that how often she's asking to bounce in and out of school? You said she'd gone back before, but you didn't mention how long ago, how often, how long she stayed last time. Are there other kids at home?
She's 9? Depending on her specific personality, etc., and especially if she's asking to bounce in and out every couple of weeks, maybe sit down with her and help her draw up a pros and cons list or a general goals list (I don't mean of achievement, but of what she envisions would make her happy) and then maybe she can figure out which setting would appeal to her most and you can switch gears into helping her get the most out of whichever setting that is.
>>I don't want her or me living the life we did while in public school. having to get on to your child every morning to get her up, every afternoon to do homework and every night to go to bed, that's not the kind of life anybody would want their child to grow up in.there was to much arguing, crying, stubborness, etc. <<
Definitely read the "school choice" link. It was very helpful to me when my kids decided to go back and "try school" last year after having been home for a year. There were no more battles about any of the things you mentioned (like there had been before we decided to homeschool the first go-round) because it was all my son's (now 9) choice to go. He knew it was his choice and he knew he could come home at any point, and that in the meantime, I would help him negotiate the things he had found difficult the first time. I worked with his teacher to tweak some of the assignments -- and especially the homework assignments -- to better match his learning style, and the rest was totally his choice.
With homework, I sat with him to get it done and helped him when he needed it. He groused exactly once about doing it, and I said "You know better than I what the consequence is of not doing your homework, so you can decide which is worse, doing the homework or dealing with Mrs. McCarthy." He usually chose doing homework because his teacher's consequence was missing recess, and he liked recess. Same with bedtime and getting up. He knew how much sleep he needed, and he knew he didn't like to be late to school, so he went to bed without complaint in time to get enough sleep and get up on time.
I missed the kids. I missed the kids having lots of time to play together. But if it had been, ultimately, where they were happiest, I would have done what I could do to help them get the most of it.
My son stayed exactly one grading period and decided to come home. He hadn't missed a single day, he was never late, and he did his homework without complaint, all because he knew it was his choice. He even articulated exactly that when I asked him once (before I knew he would be returning home) why he thought it was going better than it had when he was in first grade.
It was a little harder for my daughter (kindergarten) to decide which she preferred. She asked to come home and then two weeks later said she wanted to go back. She went for three more weeks and then only wanted to go on art days. I told her that if she wanted to go most of the time and only stay home sometimes, we could probably swing that, but that if she only wanted to go one day per week we would get in trouble with the school. She decided to come home and we just worked really hard to get her more of what she liked about school -- time with other little girls her age and art -- and she was thrilled to ditch the worksheets, hours on end of sitting at a table, an no time to just sit and think by herself.
It's not like the decision to come back home has been made and now we "don't have to worry about it any more." At 9, 6, and 4, my kids' needs, wants, and interests are changing all the time and we need to reassess and adjust our routines and activities to keep everybody content.
-Angela in NJ
Meredith
Denise Jordan <denisejordan4@...> wrote:
If its something she's yearning for, that's another matter!
If she wants to take classes or join clubs, then do that, but as Joyce mentioned, don't jump right away to the idea of a class as a way to do something. That does seem like an area of "stuckness" a place where you need to do more deschooling - maybe you and your daughter, both. In fact, it could be better to actively avoid anything class-like for awhile and learn to think outside the box more - ask for ideas on the list if you're struggling to come up with those "out of the box" ideas.
---Meredith
>You also mentioned she doesn't say it all that often. In that case, I'd let it go. Maybe ask what she'd like to be doing in school right now, or something of that sort - something positive but non-commital. Don't jump to the conclusion its something she's going to want the next day - or even the next moment.
>> "does she really want to go to school or is it just something to say?"
>
> thank you Nance. My thoughts exactly.
If its something she's yearning for, that's another matter!
If she wants to take classes or join clubs, then do that, but as Joyce mentioned, don't jump right away to the idea of a class as a way to do something. That does seem like an area of "stuckness" a place where you need to do more deschooling - maybe you and your daughter, both. In fact, it could be better to actively avoid anything class-like for awhile and learn to think outside the box more - ask for ideas on the list if you're struggling to come up with those "out of the box" ideas.
---Meredith
Meredith
Denise Jordan <denisejordan4@...> wrote:
---Meredith
>I think that's where you're getting stuck, actually. Can you step back from it? Maybe shift your thinking from "good decision" to "thoughtful decision" or "mindful" if you prefer. Somewhat ironically, that can include a lot of "going with the flow" - you said your daughter will bring up school when she's bored, but then shift to something else. That's an important point! My daughter has never been in school, but she often says "I'm bored" when she's transitioning from one thing to the next. It took me awhile to step away from the word "bored" and learn to see her as being in the midst of a transition and trying to find a way to express that awkward uncomfortable feeling of being neither here nor there. Maybe your daughter uses "I wish I was in school" the same way. Say something positive or non-commital or nothing at all for awhile. There may not be a decision for you to make at all!
> Just want to make the right decisions.
---Meredith
[email protected]
Hmmm. . . yes, don't we all. :)
It's not always easy being the parent. It's not always easy being the kid, either. This business of being a human being . . . especially if you're not following someone else's set of rules. . . not always fun or easy.
But you could relax about it. You could decide that you, if not your daughter, are going to take a break from worrying about the "to school or not to school" question.
Maybe tell her that? "I hear you saying you miss school but that doesn't sound like exactly the answer to me. I need to think about this for a while. And talk to you when you have things to add about the subject. It's not a closed door but I need to mull, to stew, to put it in the back of my mind while we enjoy our days and see what happens."
Nance
It's not always easy being the parent. It's not always easy being the kid, either. This business of being a human being . . . especially if you're not following someone else's set of rules. . . not always fun or easy.
But you could relax about it. You could decide that you, if not your daughter, are going to take a break from worrying about the "to school or not to school" question.
Maybe tell her that? "I hear you saying you miss school but that doesn't sound like exactly the answer to me. I need to think about this for a while. And talk to you when you have things to add about the subject. It's not a closed door but I need to mull, to stew, to put it in the back of my mind while we enjoy our days and see what happens."
Nance
--- In [email protected], Denise Jordan <denisejordan4@...> wrote:
>
> thank you Schuyler. I do notice its when she is bored but then she's on to something else. Just want to make the right decisions.
>