why kids LIKE school
Tawha
Hello everyone,
I have these questions in my mind and would like to hear your responses:
What make kids LIKE school?
They’ve been molded, conformed, conditioned...they like their peers, social...
..and what else makes them really LIKE going to school?!
Would an Unschooler Like school? If school mold, condition , conforms and control and take Freedom- why an Unschooler would LIKE going to school?
Could we assume/ consider that “something” went wrong while Unschooling,
Could we say that the parents did Unschooling wrong?
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I have these questions in my mind and would like to hear your responses:
What make kids LIKE school?
They’ve been molded, conformed, conditioned...they like their peers, social...
..and what else makes them really LIKE going to school?!
Would an Unschooler Like school? If school mold, condition , conforms and control and take Freedom- why an Unschooler would LIKE going to school?
Could we assume/ consider that “something” went wrong while Unschooling,
Could we say that the parents did Unschooling wrong?
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Meredith
Tawha <tawha@...> wrote:
Some find the social dynamics fascinating, either for a little while or for years. School is a very different place when it's something chosen rather than forced.
It is possible to "fail" at unschooling, though, if that's your question. You might find some of this helpful:
http://sandradodd.com/unschool/marginal
There's a "how to fail at unschooling" page somewhere in there, but I can't seem to find it at the moment - anyone have that link?
---Meredith
>> Would an Unschooler Like school?*****************
Some find the social dynamics fascinating, either for a little while or for years. School is a very different place when it's something chosen rather than forced.
> Could we assume/ consider that âsomethingâ went wrong while Unschooling,Not necessarily. Some families don't have the resources to unschool successfully, or the age-appropriate local resources needed by a specific child are all inextricably tied to schools (I'm thinking about team sports and band/orchestra in particular) - but that's not quite the same as saying the parents did something "wrong".
> Could we say that the parents did Unschooling wrong?
It is possible to "fail" at unschooling, though, if that's your question. You might find some of this helpful:
http://sandradodd.com/unschool/marginal
There's a "how to fail at unschooling" page somewhere in there, but I can't seem to find it at the moment - anyone have that link?
---Meredith
Renee Cooper
An unschooler might like school if it’s his/her *choice* to be there and they can quit anytime. The school might have opportunities that the family cannot otherwise afford, especially if they live in a rural area, such as access to a science lab and it’s equipment, or access to an art or music teacher who inspires.
Some people love and thrive under structure, too, odd as it may seem. There are other ways to get structure, but school is one of them.
I don’t think it always means that parents “failed” at unschooling.
-Renee
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Some people love and thrive under structure, too, odd as it may seem. There are other ways to get structure, but school is one of them.
I don’t think it always means that parents “failed” at unschooling.
-Renee
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BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
<<<<There's a "how to fail at unschooling" page somewhere in there, but I can't seem to find it at the moment - anyone have that link?>>>>
It is How to Screw UP Unschooling:
http://www.sandradodd.com/screwitup
Alex Polikowsky
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It is How to Screw UP Unschooling:
http://www.sandradodd.com/screwitup
Alex Polikowsky
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce Fetteroll
On Oct 15, 2011, at 11:04 AM, Tawha wrote:
method works with some kids and fails with others is how close the
match is to the child's personality.
Second, kids don't have a choice to be there. And one helpful value
is: When life hands you lemons, make lemonade.
So when kids say they like school, what does it mean? What are they
comparing it to? Are they saying they like school better than being
stuck at home with parents off working? Or stuck at home with a mom
who hovers over them? Or acts as their teacher? What is their home
like that they're imagining as the alternative to school? School tends
to tear at relationships so they may not like their parents or
siblings to spend much time with them.
I suspect some kids would choose "school", eg, going to a place to
learn in a classroom setting if they could choose what they could
learn. It wouldn't be much different from college. (College that
someone has freely chosen to follow an interest.)
But I doubt public school -- being required to be there, being
required to learn what someone else has chosen for you -- fits any
child's personality. But some kids will find enough at school that
they do like and the rest ignorable to say they enjoy it. Social kids
who find absorbing information easy would probably say they like
school. Kids who enjoy sports, music, art and can get by with the
rest, might enjoy it. Kids who like having what to learn laid out for
them in a neat package might enjoy that part of it. (I liked that. I
liked the sense that learning could come in neat packages. I was also
good at absorbing information so getting good grades was easy for me.
I'm easy going. The social part was really hard for me, but what
choice did I have? While I enjoyed home, the learning (on my own)
there wasn't as challenging as at school.
easy to stop at the assumption that they're defective, ignorant or
somehow just bad people. It helps loads in accepting other people to
know that everyone -- everyone who hasn't been severely damaged by
life -- wants pretty much what you want: security, freedom, love,
happiness. And it helps to imagine how they're getting the most
important of those *to them* met by what they're doing.
kids inherent personalities.
My daughter enjoys learning in a classroom setting. She didn't think
much of the society at school, didn't think much of burned out
teachers, and was plenty glad she could choose whether to go or not.
if'd into what sounds like reasonable situations but do those
situations match any real children?
And what do you mean by "school"? Learning in a classroom. Following a
curriculum? Or being made to go to school. My daughter liked the
first. I imagine some kids might like the second. I doubt any would
like the last *if* the other alternatives were good. Some kids like
school because it isn't home. If the home is bad, school can seem like
a safe haven.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> What make kids LIKE school?First, pretty much the answer to any question of why an environment or
method works with some kids and fails with others is how close the
match is to the child's personality.
Second, kids don't have a choice to be there. And one helpful value
is: When life hands you lemons, make lemonade.
So when kids say they like school, what does it mean? What are they
comparing it to? Are they saying they like school better than being
stuck at home with parents off working? Or stuck at home with a mom
who hovers over them? Or acts as their teacher? What is their home
like that they're imagining as the alternative to school? School tends
to tear at relationships so they may not like their parents or
siblings to spend much time with them.
I suspect some kids would choose "school", eg, going to a place to
learn in a classroom setting if they could choose what they could
learn. It wouldn't be much different from college. (College that
someone has freely chosen to follow an interest.)
But I doubt public school -- being required to be there, being
required to learn what someone else has chosen for you -- fits any
child's personality. But some kids will find enough at school that
they do like and the rest ignorable to say they enjoy it. Social kids
who find absorbing information easy would probably say they like
school. Kids who enjoy sports, music, art and can get by with the
rest, might enjoy it. Kids who like having what to learn laid out for
them in a neat package might enjoy that part of it. (I liked that. I
liked the sense that learning could come in neat packages. I was also
good at absorbing information so getting good grades was easy for me.
I'm easy going. The social part was really hard for me, but what
choice did I have? While I enjoyed home, the learning (on my own)
there wasn't as challenging as at school.
> They�ve been molded, conformed, conditioned...they like their peers,I think when imagining why someone would like something we hate, it's
> social...
> ..and what else makes them really LIKE going to school?!
easy to stop at the assumption that they're defective, ignorant or
somehow just bad people. It helps loads in accepting other people to
know that everyone -- everyone who hasn't been severely damaged by
life -- wants pretty much what you want: security, freedom, love,
happiness. And it helps to imagine how they're getting the most
important of those *to them* met by what they're doing.
> Would an Unschooler Like school?Why assume all unschoolers are alike? Learning at home doesn't change
kids inherent personalities.
My daughter enjoys learning in a classroom setting. She didn't think
much of the society at school, didn't think much of burned out
teachers, and was plenty glad she could choose whether to go or not.
> If school mold, condition , conforms and control and take Freedom-Are you speaking of a specific child? Strawmen children can be what
> why an Unschooler would LIKE going to school?
if'd into what sounds like reasonable situations but do those
situations match any real children?
And what do you mean by "school"? Learning in a classroom. Following a
curriculum? Or being made to go to school. My daughter liked the
first. I imagine some kids might like the second. I doubt any would
like the last *if* the other alternatives were good. Some kids like
school because it isn't home. If the home is bad, school can seem like
a safe haven.
> Could we assume/ consider that �something� went wrong whileCould we talk about real children?
> Unschooling,
> Could we say that the parents did Unschooling wrong?
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
Why do you ask?
Nance
Nance
> Could we assume/ consider that âsomethingâ went wrong while Unschooling,
> Could we say that the parents did Unschooling wrong?
>
>
>
Debra Rossing
It's possible that something went wrong, that the parents did unschooling 'wrong', it is possible. Detached, uninvolved, absent, preoccupied parents (over a long term) might be a situation where school is more attractive. An unstable home situation might make school more attractive - it's routine, predictable, safe-feeling. Unschooling NEEDS involved, active, interactive parenting in a safe home.
And sometimes it's a way of exploring something new, same as exploring a new park, grocery store, movie genre. I know someone whose son chose high school - it was kind of a fascinating sociology exploration more than anything else because he knew it wasn't the be-all, end-all of life.
Deb R
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And sometimes it's a way of exploring something new, same as exploring a new park, grocery store, movie genre. I know someone whose son chose high school - it was kind of a fascinating sociology exploration more than anything else because he knew it wasn't the be-all, end-all of life.
Deb R
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Roger Rifenburgh
how do you'all handle when a child says she wants to go to HS, but you as a parent feel you know better? My daughter is 14 and she's always been home schooled. She also loved High School Musical and Grease and I think she thinks that this is what HS is all about. I also realize she is ADHD and rather easily overwhelmed....is it ok to make this call for her???? I tried online schools and she cant keep up...she is too easily distracted and I suspect she simply doesnt get it when presented that way (institutionalized). I feel I KNOW staying home and doing it 'our' way is best for her, but I also dont want her to feel she missed out on something (or could I be having underlying issues???? I HATED HS) BTW my 28 yr old was reg. sch/private/home and did college by 16...but he says he 'missed out' now????
Lauren Adele Rifenburgh
Writer
DIQ Mary Kay
marykay.com/laurenadele
Certified makeup artist
Brides parties Gifts
FREE facials & makeovers
678-497-8703
Facebook: Laurens Mary Kay please like my page:)
________________________________
From: Debra Rossing <debra.rossing@...>
To: "'[email protected]'" <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, October 17, 2011 10:35 PM
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: why kids LIKE school
It's possible that something went wrong, that the parents did unschooling 'wrong', it is possible. Detached, uninvolved, absent, preoccupied parents (over a long term) might be a situation where school is more attractive. An unstable home situation might make school more attractive - it's routine, predictable, safe-feeling. Unschooling NEEDS involved, active, interactive parenting in a safe home.
And sometimes it's a way of exploring something new, same as exploring a new park, grocery store, movie genre. I know someone whose son chose high school - it was kind of a fascinating sociology exploration more than anything else because he knew it wasn't the be-all, end-all of life.
Deb R
**********************************************************************
This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and
intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they
are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify
the system manager.
This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept by
MIMEsweeper for the presence of computer viruses.
www.mastercam.com
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Lauren Adele Rifenburgh
Writer
DIQ Mary Kay
marykay.com/laurenadele
Certified makeup artist
Brides parties Gifts
FREE facials & makeovers
678-497-8703
Facebook: Laurens Mary Kay please like my page:)
________________________________
From: Debra Rossing <debra.rossing@...>
To: "'[email protected]'" <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, October 17, 2011 10:35 PM
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: why kids LIKE school
It's possible that something went wrong, that the parents did unschooling 'wrong', it is possible. Detached, uninvolved, absent, preoccupied parents (over a long term) might be a situation where school is more attractive. An unstable home situation might make school more attractive - it's routine, predictable, safe-feeling. Unschooling NEEDS involved, active, interactive parenting in a safe home.
And sometimes it's a way of exploring something new, same as exploring a new park, grocery store, movie genre. I know someone whose son chose high school - it was kind of a fascinating sociology exploration more than anything else because he knew it wasn't the be-all, end-all of life.
Deb R
**********************************************************************
This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and
intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they
are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify
the system manager.
This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept by
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www.mastercam.com
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Joyce Fetteroll
On Oct 17, 2011, at 10:52 AM, Roger Rifenburgh wrote:
What if her purposes are different from yours?
she knew she could come home, what would be the problem with trying?
If you "knew" she wouldn't like a certain kind of ice cream, would you
forbid it?
Pretty much the whole foundation of unschooling is that we learn by
experience and not by someone else handing their experience to us for
us to internalize as our own.
What if we said yes, what would that mean? That every unique
individual that goes through the same experience will have the same
results?
What are the pros and cons of each?
If you say she can't go then you've increased the value of school. And
she'll want to try it more. And if she then does try it she'll
probably stick with it longer because she doesn't want you to "win"
and be right and her be wrong.
This is about TV but it applies to anything restricted:
http://www.sandradodd.com/t/economics.html
If she tries it, she'll learn what she likes and what she doesn't
like. She'll have *her* experience with school to make decisions from.
and cliques and cafeterias and PA announcements and assemblies and
field trips ....
homeschool her. It's you deciding what's best for her and making her
do it. That's exactly what schooling parents do. And *that's* what's
damaging about school: people deciding they know what's best and then
making you do it without any chance to opt out.
to blame others when they had no choice in what was done to them. If
they have the choice, then *they* get to decide.
Joyce
> how do you'all handle when a child says she wants to go to HS, butBetter for what purposes?
> you as a parent feel you know better?
What if her purposes are different from yours?
> I think she thinks that this is what HS is all about. I alsoHow long do you think it would take her to decide that was true? If
> realize she is ADHD and rather easily overwhelmed....
she knew she could come home, what would be the problem with trying?
If you "knew" she wouldn't like a certain kind of ice cream, would you
forbid it?
Pretty much the whole foundation of unschooling is that we learn by
experience and not by someone else handing their experience to us for
us to internalize as our own.
> is it ok to make this call for her????Okay how?
What if we said yes, what would that mean? That every unique
individual that goes through the same experience will have the same
results?
What are the pros and cons of each?
If you say she can't go then you've increased the value of school. And
she'll want to try it more. And if she then does try it she'll
probably stick with it longer because she doesn't want you to "win"
and be right and her be wrong.
This is about TV but it applies to anything restricted:
http://www.sandradodd.com/t/economics.html
If she tries it, she'll learn what she likes and what she doesn't
like. She'll have *her* experience with school to make decisions from.
> I tried online schools and she cant keep upOnline schools don't have kids and lockers and gym class and art class
and cliques and cafeterias and PA announcements and assemblies and
field trips ....
> I feel I KNOW staying home and doing it 'our' way is best for her,It's not "our" way if she wants to go to school and you want to
homeschool her. It's you deciding what's best for her and making her
do it. That's exactly what schooling parents do. And *that's* what's
damaging about school: people deciding they know what's best and then
making you do it without any chance to opt out.
> BTW my 28 yr old was reg. sch/private/home and did college byHow much choice did he have in what he did each year? People are right
> 16...but he says he 'missed out' now????
to blame others when they had no choice in what was done to them. If
they have the choice, then *they* get to decide.
Joyce
Meredith
Roger Rifenburgh <rogerrifenburgh@...> wrote:
Then in two weeks she'll have figured out the difference.
Sometimes home/unschooling parents get worked up about school, based on past experiences and forget a very important fact - you can always go back to home/unschooling. You won't even have that new-to-homeschooling panic that other parents have when they pull a kid out of school and don't know what to do next.
If she Doesn't want to come home in a couple weeks or months, she's in school by her own choice - and that's a veeerrrry different experience than being "stuck" in school the way most kids are.
Recently, my daughter wanted to go play laser tag with some friends in a floor length velvet dress. I "knew" it was a bad idea and the mom who was hosting the trip did, too - but Mo had her own plan so I sent an extra bag of clothes along just in case (because I "knew better") and lo and behold, she mangaged just fine in her dress. Sometimes I don't know as much as I think I do ;)
---Meredith
>*****************
> how do you'all handle when a child says she wants to go to HS, but you as a parent feel you know better? My daughter is 14 and she's always been home schooled. She also loved High School Musical and Grease and I think she thinks that this is what HS is all about
Then in two weeks she'll have figured out the difference.
Sometimes home/unschooling parents get worked up about school, based on past experiences and forget a very important fact - you can always go back to home/unschooling. You won't even have that new-to-homeschooling panic that other parents have when they pull a kid out of school and don't know what to do next.
If she Doesn't want to come home in a couple weeks or months, she's in school by her own choice - and that's a veeerrrry different experience than being "stuck" in school the way most kids are.
> you as a parent feel you know better?Sometimes its hard for me to "get over myself". Maybe I know "better" than my kid and maybe I don't. Maybe my kid needs to find something out her own way!
Recently, my daughter wanted to go play laser tag with some friends in a floor length velvet dress. I "knew" it was a bad idea and the mom who was hosting the trip did, too - but Mo had her own plan so I sent an extra bag of clothes along just in case (because I "knew better") and lo and behold, she mangaged just fine in her dress. Sometimes I don't know as much as I think I do ;)
---Meredith