Kristie

Okay, we are still deschooling. It's been summer vacation around here. I have
also been relaxing my parenting - a lot. For the most part, it has been okay.
Actually, it's been really nice to not be the boss. So many problems just
disappear when you're not setting up a battle of wills.


I'm a little nervous that they are still playing video games continuously, but
have read that's normal. I also allowed my 13 yo to have a computer in his
room, but I do have a filter on it. I told him to let me know if there were
sites blocked he wanted to go to - that it was not there to annoy him. He has
been very happy about this.


Anyway, I know he's been on Youtube and I saw that he posted a comment with a
cuss word in it! I am trying to not hyperventilate here...but having a serious
second-guessing moment about how much freedom I am giving him.

Any words of wisdom appreciated...I'm going to go read some more.

Kristie

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joyce Fetteroll

On Sep 29, 2011, at 9:26 PM, Kristie wrote:

> I saw that he posted a comment with a
> cuss word in it

Has he cussed around the younger kids? Around Grandma? To anyone who
would be offended?

Did he use it to hurt someone's feelings?

If you confront him with it and cut off everything but kid sites, do
you think that will prevent him from swearing? Do you think it will
prevent him from getting on other sites without you being aware?

You have two options basically. You can keep the lines of
communication open so you can pass on some advice if you see him
cussing or doing other things to hurt someone.

Or you can provide him with the opportunity to learn how to sneak
around whatever roadblocks you set up.

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Tina Tarbutton

We're very open about words here in our house. Both my wife and I cuss,
probably more than we should, and we allow our 11 y/o to cuss, however we
all follow the same principles about cussing. We don't cuss around people
who would be offended by it (which means there are people we can cuss around
that he can't, my mother would flip if she heard him cussing but is fine
with my language), we don't cuss around other kids, and we don't attack
people with our words (cuss words or otherwise). I'm sure there's other
unspoken principles but we've never really run into a problem with it.

At first I cringed when I heard him drop the "f-bomb" but it made me focus
more on how much I cuss. Now we all cuss much less and it's not something
he needs to hide from us. They're just words, they aren't being used to
hurt someone, and when he does get hurtful with his words we talk about it
and figure out why he felt the need to do that.

If you make a big deal out of his choice of language then he'll find ways to
cuss where you won't see and or hear and personally I'd rather have an open
and honest relationship where I may not be happy with every choice, then a
relationship marked by walls and my son finding ways to get around those
walls.

Tina

On Thu, Sep 29, 2011 at 9:26 PM, Kristie <messy_boys@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
> Anyway, I know he's been on Youtube and I saw that he posted a comment with
> a
> cuss word in it! I am trying to not hyperventilate here...but having a
> serious
> second-guessing moment about how much freedom I am giving him.
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Denise Jordan

I am also working on deschooling. It has been very hard for me. My daughter is loving it but i am having a harder time letting my son completely unshool. Different personality than my daughter. he does want to play video games 24/7 and that concerns me. He really wants to do nothing else. Im trying to relax myself but I have all the worries about them getting into college if they decide to go etc. Any encouragement is appreciated. Thanks Denise




To: [email protected]
From: messy_boys@...
Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2011 18:26:07 -0700
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] I'm freaking out a little.






Okay, we are still deschooling. It's been summer vacation around here. I have
also been relaxing my parenting - a lot. For the most part, it has been okay.
Actually, it's been really nice to not be the boss. So many problems just
disappear when you're not setting up a battle of wills.

I'm a little nervous that they are still playing video games continuously, but
have read that's normal. I also allowed my 13 yo to have a computer in his
room, but I do have a filter on it. I told him to let me know if there were
sites blocked he wanted to go to - that it was not there to annoy him. He has
been very happy about this.

Anyway, I know he's been on Youtube and I saw that he posted a comment with a
cuss word in it! I am trying to not hyperventilate here...but having a serious
second-guessing moment about how much freedom I am giving him.

Any words of wisdom appreciated...I'm going to go read some more.

Kristie

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

tookute2eat

--- In [email protected], Tina Tarbutton <tina.tarbutton@...> wrote:
>
> We're very open about words here in our house. Both my wife and I cuss,
> probably more than we should, and we allow our 11 y/o to cuss, however we
> all follow the same principles about cussing. We don't cuss around people
> who would be offended by it (which means there are people we can cuss around
> that he can't, my mother would flip if she heard him cussing but is fine
> with my language), we don't cuss around other kids, and we don't attack
> people with our words (cuss words or otherwise). I'm sure there's other
> unspoken principles but we've never really run into a problem with it.
>
>Funny! We do the same here. It used to be I'd only cuss around my daughter in the car and say it's okay, it makes me feel better and laugh about cussing rather than get upset and get in an accident cause someone is tail-gating me;) I called it, "vehicle language". And that we don't want to be going to grandma's house using it. We're pretty loose around here though, but it isn't in every sentence or all day long. Just an occasional "exclamation" that no other word quite fits;) Reminds me of that episode on Sponge Bob, where he and Patrick discover how it tickles their tongues to use those words, lol.
Connie

Joyce Fetteroll

On Sep 29, 2011, at 10:07 PM, Denise Jordan wrote:

> My daughter is loving it but i am having a harder time letting my
> son completely unshool. Different personality than my daughter. he
> does want to play video games 24/7 and that concerns me. He really
> wants to do nothing else.

Every time you put on limits (If that's what you're doing) you're
resetting the clock.

Think about trying to get a stick away from a dog. The harder you pull
the harder the dog pulls back. If you walk away, the dog might drop
it. Or not ;-) He gets to decide.

The thing about video games ...

They are massive, complex, fascinating puzzles. They take *hours* to
solve.

If video games were limited before (by you or by time in school) he's
got a big deficit to fill. Think of it as being dehydrated. If you
only want him to have one glass of water a day, you're battling not
only his dehydration that needs several glasses of water right now,
but his own daily needs which is more than a glass a day.

If you shut off the tap after one glass, do you think he'd learn to
live on one glass? Happily? Joyfully? And think you're the bees knees
for helping him do that?

Video games aren't exactly like water since eventually the game is
solved. Eventually the types of puzzles games offer aren't quite as
fascinating because the child has played a lot or his biochemistry has
changed with age and other things become more interesting. And his
interests will drift elsewhere.

Video games might always be an interest but right now his intensity is
ramped up because 1) they're fascinating challenges, 2) he's been
"dehydrated", 3) possibly his age.

> Im trying to relax myself but I have all the worries about them
> getting into college if they decide to go etc

It helps to let go of the idea they need to go at 18. If you get that
image out of your head and picture them exploring the world, and then
going on to college to study whatever fascinates them at, say. 25, it
will help you stop seeing "the end" rapidly approaching.

It makes some sense (though over all not very good sense!) for
schooled kids to go to college right away. If they get off the school
"horse" that's been damaging them for 12 years it will be a long time
if ever before many of them get back on. But your kids have time to
recover from the drudgery. They have time to see how college is
different from school rather than how it's more of the same and see it
as a potential place to explore their interests.

Joyce

Denise Jordan

Thank you so much Joyce. I do not limit my sons video time. I let him play. He has learned alot of history from his games. He is 11 and has always loved videos games, computers etc. since he was 18 months. He says he wants to make video games when he gets older. Can you recommend any sites that could help him learn that. I have seen a few. Right now though he doesn't want to lean that, he just wants to play.

My daughter hates school of any kind, except the socializing she got in public school. she still sees her friends. She is so carefree. I joke and call her my tree hugger because she is such an outside child and loves to go around picking up trash, ha What happens if she never wants to learn any type of vocabulary, math, history, etc. She could care less about any of it. She is a very good reader but never remembers what she reads. I have to say deschooling isn't easy. Still working on it. You guys are awesome who take the time to help those like me.




To: [email protected]
From: jfetteroll@...
Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2011 03:52:21 -0400
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] I'm freaking out a little.







On Sep 29, 2011, at 10:07 PM, Denise Jordan wrote:

> My daughter is loving it but i am having a harder time letting my
> son completely unshool. Different personality than my daughter. he
> does want to play video games 24/7 and that concerns me. He really
> wants to do nothing else.

Every time you put on limits (If that's what you're doing) you're
resetting the clock.

Think about trying to get a stick away from a dog. The harder you pull
the harder the dog pulls back. If you walk away, the dog might drop
it. Or not ;-) He gets to decide.

The thing about video games ...

They are massive, complex, fascinating puzzles. They take *hours* to
solve.

If video games were limited before (by you or by time in school) he's
got a big deficit to fill. Think of it as being dehydrated. If you
only want him to have one glass of water a day, you're battling not
only his dehydration that needs several glasses of water right now,
but his own daily needs which is more than a glass a day.

If you shut off the tap after one glass, do you think he'd learn to
live on one glass? Happily? Joyfully? And think you're the bees knees
for helping him do that?

Video games aren't exactly like water since eventually the game is
solved. Eventually the types of puzzles games offer aren't quite as
fascinating because the child has played a lot or his biochemistry has
changed with age and other things become more interesting. And his
interests will drift elsewhere.

Video games might always be an interest but right now his intensity is
ramped up because 1) they're fascinating challenges, 2) he's been
"dehydrated", 3) possibly his age.

> Im trying to relax myself but I have all the worries about them
> getting into college if they decide to go etc

It helps to let go of the idea they need to go at 18. If you get that
image out of your head and picture them exploring the world, and then
going on to college to study whatever fascinates them at, say. 25, it
will help you stop seeing "the end" rapidly approaching.

It makes some sense (though over all not very good sense!) for
schooled kids to go to college right away. If they get off the school
"horse" that's been damaging them for 12 years it will be a long time
if ever before many of them get back on. But your kids have time to
recover from the drudgery. They have time to see how college is
different from school rather than how it's more of the same and see it
as a potential place to explore their interests.

Joyce





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joyce Fetteroll

On Sep 30, 2011, at 8:14 AM, Denise Jordan wrote:

> Can you recommend any sites that could help him learn that. I have
> seen a few. Right now though he doesn't want to lean that, he just
> wants to play.

If he doesn't want to learn it there aren't *any* sites that will help
him! ;-) And loads of sites that will make him not want to learn if he
feels pressure from you that you'd be more relaxed if he were there
rather than playing.

You could tell him when he wants to learn you'll ask some people you
know on line to recommend some sties.

> What happens if she never wants to learn any type of vocabulary,

Do you mean she doesn't speak? She doesn't respond to others speaking?
She has no vocabulary at all?

> math, history, etc.

If she doesn't want them, will they be important? We want what we find
useful and interesting. If they aren't useful or interesting to her,
then why *would* she want them?

I'm not trying to be flippant. Math and history are all around us.
What's hard for schooled people is recognizing them in their wild
state and trusting the connections they create.

They don't look anything like school math and don't necessarily look
like school history.

This might help:

http://joyfullyrejoycing.com

> She could care less about any of it. She is a very good reader but
> never remembers what she reads.

None of it? You mean she could keep reading the same book over and
over as though it were new?

Or does she not feel like telling you? Or does translating feelings
and impressions into words not yet come fluidly for her?

If she doesn't read even though she can, you might try audiobooks for
the car. But if she isn't interested in the stories right now,
honoring that prference is what you'd need to do to build a good
relationship.

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Kelly Lovejoy

I especially like the last two paragraphs about college. I'd never thought if it like that, and Cameron, now at 23, is contemplating college---but he is without the urgency and school baggage he would have had at 18. So I'm seeing that in him----his horse is in the barn.


My niece, after graduating college, said that she just wanted to chill for a while after 17 years of being told what to do, how, and when. She was "over" school. She went back after a few years (although complaining the whole time) and got another degree (physician's assistant), but she desperately needed that break.


I can remember so well how *I* felt when I left college and was *done* with all that crap. It would have been so different if I didn't feel that I HAD to be there For More School.


~Kelly

Kelly Lovejoy
"There is no single effort more radical in its potential for saving the world than a transformation of the way we raise our children." Marianne Williamson



-----Original Message-----
From: Joyce Fetteroll <jfetteroll@...>


On Sep 29, 2011, at 10:07 PM, Denise Jordan wrote:

> My daughter is loving it but i am having a harder time letting my
> son completely unshool. Different personality than my daughter. he
> does want to play video games 24/7 and that concerns me. He really
> wants to do nothing else.

Every time you put on limits (If that's what you're doing) you're
resetting the clock.

Think about trying to get a stick away from a dog. The harder you pull
the harder the dog pulls back. If you walk away, the dog might drop
it. Or not ;-) He gets to decide.

The thing about video games ...

They are massive, complex, fascinating puzzles. They take *hours* to
solve.

If video games were limited before (by you or by time in school) he's
got a big deficit to fill. Think of it as being dehydrated. If you
only want him to have one glass of water a day, you're battling not
only his dehydration that needs several glasses of water right now,
but his own daily needs which is more than a glass a day.

If you shut off the tap after one glass, do you think he'd learn to
live on one glass? Happily? Joyfully? And think you're the bees knees
for helping him do that?

Video games aren't exactly like water since eventually the game is
solved. Eventually the types of puzzles games offer aren't quite as
fascinating because the child has played a lot or his biochemistry has
changed with age and other things become more interesting. And his
interests will drift elsewhere.

Video games might always be an interest but right now his intensity is
ramped up because 1) they're fascinating challenges, 2) he's been
"dehydrated", 3) possibly his age.

> Im trying to relax myself but I have all the worries about them
> getting into college if they decide to go etc

It helps to let go of the idea they need to go at 18. If you get that
image out of your head and picture them exploring the world, and then
going on to college to study whatever fascinates them at, say. 25, it
will help you stop seeing "the end" rapidly approaching.

It makes some sense (though over all not very good sense!) for
schooled kids to go to college right away. If they get off the school
"horse" that's been damaging them for 12 years it will be a long time
if ever before many of them get back on. But your kids have time to
recover from the drudgery. They have time to see how college is
different from school rather than how it's more of the same and see it
as a potential place to explore their interests.

Joyce


------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Denise Jordan

Joyce you make it sound so easy. I am learning. I have read a ton of joyfully rejoycing. I guess im thinking in terms of learning verbs, adverbs etc but i guess she may never need it. Not comprehending what she reads is what i was saying but maybe it is because she can't translate it. you are helping me to look at things differently and I do appreciate it. I know you arent being flippant, you are being real and honest. thank you




To: [email protected]
From: jfetteroll@...
Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2011 09:55:54 -0400
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] I'm freaking out a little.







On Sep 30, 2011, at 8:14 AM, Denise Jordan wrote:

> Can you recommend any sites that could help him learn that. I have
> seen a few. Right now though he doesn't want to lean that, he just
> wants to play.

If he doesn't want to learn it there aren't *any* sites that will help
him! ;-) And loads of sites that will make him not want to learn if he
feels pressure from you that you'd be more relaxed if he were there
rather than playing.

You could tell him when he wants to learn you'll ask some people you
know on line to recommend some sties.

> What happens if she never wants to learn any type of vocabulary,

Do you mean she doesn't speak? She doesn't respond to others speaking?
She has no vocabulary at all?

> math, history, etc.

If she doesn't want them, will they be important? We want what we find
useful and interesting. If they aren't useful or interesting to her,
then why *would* she want them?

I'm not trying to be flippant. Math and history are all around us.
What's hard for schooled people is recognizing them in their wild
state and trusting the connections they create.

They don't look anything like school math and don't necessarily look
like school history.

This might help:

http://joyfullyrejoycing.com

> She could care less about any of it. She is a very good reader but
> never remembers what she reads.

None of it? You mean she could keep reading the same book over and
over as though it were new?

Or does she not feel like telling you? Or does translating feelings
and impressions into words not yet come fluidly for her?

If she doesn't read even though she can, you might try audiobooks for
the car. But if she isn't interested in the stories right now,
honoring that prference is what you'd need to do to build a good
relationship.

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Meredith

Kristie <messy_boys@...> wrote:
>> Anyway, I know he's been on Youtube and I saw that he posted a comment with a
> cuss word in it! I am trying to not hyperventilate here...but having a serious
> second-guessing moment about how much freedom I am giving him.

Did he use it appropriately in a sentence? How's his cuss grammar?

I'm be a little silly, but with a point behind it. Learning cuss words is a really fine example of natural learning. Kids very frequently use the words in the right context from observing the ways other people use them. They don't need lessons in whether "B.S." is a noun or a verb, they generally spell the words correctly online (barring typos) and the majority of the time they even use the words with the correct sensibilities - a youtube comment, for instance, is a relatively appropriate place to swear. I bet he'd be much less likely to cuss in a facebook update.

If you're reeling in shock, it's because your son has had the sense to censor his language in your company. That's not a terrible thing - time and place make a difference in courtesy, and swearing is generally frowned upon across generational lines. I don't swear in front of my grandparents, for instance, and in front of parents only if they do it first in the conversation. I don't think its possible to get to age 13 without learning a bunch of swear words - did you? If so, take a breath. It won't turn him into George Carlin!

---Meredith

Debra Rossing

Our "rule of thumb" since DS was 5 (Old enough to notice such things) is that he is free to use any words (of any sort) that hubby and I use, in the same places/circumstances we use them. So, if we cuss at home but not at Grandma's house, he's free to cuss at home but not at Grandma's house. And, we didn't need to explicitly lay all that out - just let him know that he could say anything he heard us say. He picked up the "at Grandma's house" or whatever else (appropriateness type stuff) himself. It basically bothered him (and still does) when there are inequities in how kids are treated "adults can say F*** but kids can't" type things. Interestingly, once he felt free to choose to say such "cuss words", he rarely uses them (even though DH and I sometimes still do).

Deb R



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Debra Rossing

> Im trying to relax myself but I have all the worries about them getting into college if they decide to go etc. Any encouragement is appreciated

And what exactly is your worrying accomplishing? If ANYONE chooses to go to college, ANYONE can choose to do what is needed WHEN it is needed. Not to mention, what if he chooses to pursue a degree in programming, software development in general (testing, designing, etc), graphic design, videography, etc? What he's doing now is DIRECTLY related to those sorts of things.

Deb R



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Debra Rossing

> It makes some sense (though over all not very good sense!) for schooled kids to go to college right away. If they get off the school "horse" that's been damaging them for 12 years it will be a long time if ever before many of them get back on.

Hubby hated school so much, he graduated high school (barely) and then went to work. A decade later, he found a passion for something and college/university had all the resources he wanted conveniently in one place, so he applied and got accepted WITHOUT an ACT/SAT score, with decade old transcript (if it ever got there!), and he CLEP'd out of a full semester and then some - he went in mid-August as a true freshman and came out in December as a sophomore by taking a bunch of tests that he said seemed more like playing Jeopardy than anything else.

Deb R



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Debra Rossing

> But if she isn't interested in the stories right now, honoring that prference is what you'd need to do to build a good relationship.

And she may never be interested in "Stories" - she might read for information (data, instructions) but never for recreation - and that's fine! The vet we used to take our dog to rarely read anything in the lines of fiction and rarely anything for 'recreation' - an occasional biography maybe - but most of his reading was related to animal care and animal husbandry. He'd rather be out hiking or riding horses or whatever for 'recreation'.

Deb R



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Meredith

Denise Jordan <denisejordan4@...> wrote:
>he does want to play video games 24/7 and that concerns me. He really wants to do nothing else.
**************

Ray played video games and online games pretty solidly for a couple years after leaving school. Now he makes and sells small wood and metal works while he learns more about carving and smithing.

>> Im trying to relax myself but I have all the worries about them getting into college if they decide to go
****************

If they decide to go, there are many, many options, including going to community college first.

Here's something to think about, though - does your son ever struggle to make it through a level or boss battle? Chances are he does, at least some of the time. I've seen my kids work for hours, days! to get through part of a game. It can seem like a small thing, but That's what schools try to instill in kids and generally fail to do - that drive to succeed at one's goals. Playing video games, your son is learning about priorities - how important Is it, right now, to beat this game? He's learning about options - cheats or no cheats? Some games even have difficulty settings. Games are made with the assumption that sometimes people like to push themselves even when they Don't Have To. And playing video games, kids do that. They get to experience the thrill of setting themselves up against a challenge and working it through. Some kids learn that other ways - its not that games are the only way or best way, but they are One way, a very good way, for kids to get to know they have "what it takes" to persevere and be successful on their own terms.

---Meredith

Debra Rossing

>. I guess im thinking in terms of learning verbs, adverbs etc but i guess she may never need it

I work with a bunch of professional technical writers (some of whom have had work published - go to Amazon and look up "Clay Walnum" - he's written a bunch of books on various programming subjects, I work with him; others have won awards from professional organizations) and I asked them one time how important it was to know things like this. Their collective response was "mostly immaterial" though it might occasionally help them figure out why a particular sentence looks/sounds 'odd'. So even professional writers don't need to be able to parse sentences. If they don't need to, who does? (except maybe public school English grammar teachers)

Deb R



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Meredith

Denise Jordan <denisejordan4@...> wrote:
> He says he wants to make video games when he gets older. Can you recommend any sites that could help him learn that. I have seen a few. Right now though he doesn't want to lean that, he just wants to play.
*******************

Does he like SIMs type games at all? Spore? Or games with a special feature where you design your own environment - skateboard games, for instance, sometimes offer a feature where you can design your own virtual skate park. I'm not saying to push those at him, but any game that includes design features is an introduction to programming. It's a short step from dragging and dropping images to dragging and dropping chunks of code - which is how most basic programming works nowadays.

But for now, if he's not into that, he's still learning very useful things about How games are put together. He's learning what an interesting story looks like, what kinds of characters are appealing, what kinds of villains are scary or just annoying. He's learning the difference between a good challenge and a game with too many stupid hoops to jump through. He's learning about color, lighting and how they effect the mood of a scene. He's learning what kinds of sounds and music are effective to convey a feeling or set a tone. All of these things are valuable in designing games. They're Also valuable in watching or making movies, and in reading and writing books or creating visual art, or composing music, or teaching a class. Learning is never just one thing! And video games are very very rich sources of learning.

>> I joke and call her my tree hugger because she is such an outside child and loves to go around picking up trash, ha What happens if she never wants to learn any type of vocabulary, math, history, etc.
*****************

Stop and really think about that question - what's "vocabulary" in real life? How much does real life look like learning particular subjects?

Just picking up trash, she Is learning history, and math, and vocabulary and more besides. Some will be specific to the task at hand - what's the going rate for aluminum cans? (and if you get into That question, you're already getting into currency fluxuations, supply and demand, global economic factors... nevermind math she's learning economics!), how long does it take to fill up a trash bag? what's the largest convenient size bag to carry? How much trash do people throw on the ground? Where does it go? Why does it go there? What's the name of the little thingy some people use to stab up garbage? what's that smell? What kinds of substances fall apart when left outside and what stays together?

Learning, real learning, involves making connections. Ideas swirl around and connect with other ideas, spark new questions. An interest in nature can't help but be an interest in history - how old is this tree? what's an indigenous plant? what does naturalized mean? and now there's some new vocabulary, and math, too - how long does it take a new species to spread? and what other forces contribute to the spread? history and biology, time and distribution and probability. Real learning is not a bunch of neat lists with a quiz on thursday ;) it happens right under your nose, so much so that you don't realize what your kids are learning until someday you're out to dinner with a friend and your kid makes some comment which leaves you wondering... when did you learn that?

> She is a very good reader but never remembers what she reads.

Nothing? Not even Exit and Walmart and Recycle and Start? I bet she remembers those ;)

If she's interested, she'll remember what interests her, but you also said she's very social. She may well learn best by talking to other people. Ray's like that - and because he has had the chance to learn that way, he knows that the best way for him to learn is to set himself up with someone who can tell him what he needs to know. That sounds funny, like he's learned he needs a teacher, but its no funnier than learning one works best from a diagram or from figuring things out from scratch. It may be reading isn't a good way for your daughter to gather information - so Knowing that is Important for her. It's better for her to have a sense of how she really learns than to have some idea of how she's "supposed" to learn.

---Meredith

[email protected]

Your 13-year-old cussed and this is news? No, that's called real life. :)

Nance


--- In [email protected], Kristie <messy_boys@...> wrote:
>
> Okay, we are still deschooling. It's been summer vacation around here. I have
> also been relaxing my parenting - a lot. For the most part, it has been okay.
> Actually, it's been really nice to not be the boss. So many problems just
> disappear when you're not setting up a battle of wills.
>
>
> I'm a little nervous that they are still playing video games continuously, but
> have read that's normal. I also allowed my 13 yo to have a computer in his
> room, but I do have a filter on it. I told him to let me know if there were
> sites blocked he wanted to go to - that it was not there to annoy him. He has
> been very happy about this.
>
>
> Anyway, I know he's been on Youtube and I saw that he posted a comment with a
> cuss word in it! I am trying to not hyperventilate here...but having a serious
> second-guessing moment about how much freedom I am giving him.
>
> Any words of wisdom appreciated...I'm going to go read some more.
>
> Kristie
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Kelly Lovejoy

And if it DOES,...well, we NEED another Carlin!


~Kelly

Kelly Lovejoy
"There is no single effort more radical in its potential for saving the world than a transformation of the way we raise our children." Marianne Williamson



-----Original Message-----
From: Meredith <plaidpanties666@...> I don't think
its possible to get to age 13 without learning a bunch of swear words - did you?
If so, take a breath. It won't turn him into George Carlin!





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Meredith

Kelly Lovejoy <kbcdlovejo@...> wrote:
>
> And if it DOES,...well, we NEED another Carlin!

Yeah, I was going all maudlin the other night, listening to an old monologue of his... Now There was a man with a Vocabulary - and an excellent sense of grammar and punctuation, too, if you listen. The best comics aren't just running their mouths, they've carefully crafted their words, and that takes a very fine knowledge of "language arts" in a very real sense. George Carlin was a language Artisan.

---Meredith

Denise Jordan

Thanks Meredith, you are full of info. In some of this with my daughter, what if she never ask me those questions you mentioned? Is she figuring all that out on her on? I know that sounds dumb but how do i know she is thinking in terms of what you were saying about trash and how long it take to fill the bag etc. Thanks again. You guys are awesome.




To: [email protected]
From: plaidpanties666@...
Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2011 17:03:52 +0000
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: I'm freaking out a little.






Denise Jordan <denisejordan4@...> wrote:
> He says he wants to make video games when he gets older. Can you recommend any sites that could help him learn that. I have seen a few. Right now though he doesn't want to lean that, he just wants to play.
*******************

Does he like SIMs type games at all? Spore? Or games with a special feature where you design your own environment - skateboard games, for instance, sometimes offer a feature where you can design your own virtual skate park. I'm not saying to push those at him, but any game that includes design features is an introduction to programming. It's a short step from dragging and dropping images to dragging and dropping chunks of code - which is how most basic programming works nowadays.

But for now, if he's not into that, he's still learning very useful things about How games are put together. He's learning what an interesting story looks like, what kinds of characters are appealing, what kinds of villains are scary or just annoying. He's learning the difference between a good challenge and a game with too many stupid hoops to jump through. He's learning about color, lighting and how they effect the mood of a scene. He's learning what kinds of sounds and music are effective to convey a feeling or set a tone. All of these things are valuable in designing games. They're Also valuable in watching or making movies, and in reading and writing books or creating visual art, or composing music, or teaching a class. Learning is never just one thing! And video games are very very rich sources of learning.

>> I joke and call her my tree hugger because she is such an outside child and loves to go around picking up trash, ha What happens if she never wants to learn any type of vocabulary, math, history, etc.
*****************

Stop and really think about that question - what's "vocabulary" in real life? How much does real life look like learning particular subjects?

Just picking up trash, she Is learning history, and math, and vocabulary and more besides. Some will be specific to the task at hand - what's the going rate for aluminum cans? (and if you get into That question, you're already getting into currency fluxuations, supply and demand, global economic factors... nevermind math she's learning economics!), how long does it take to fill up a trash bag? what's the largest convenient size bag to carry? How much trash do people throw on the ground? Where does it go? Why does it go there? What's the name of the little thingy some people use to stab up garbage? what's that smell? What kinds of substances fall apart when left outside and what stays together?

Learning, real learning, involves making connections. Ideas swirl around and connect with other ideas, spark new questions. An interest in nature can't help but be an interest in history - how old is this tree? what's an indigenous plant? what does naturalized mean? and now there's some new vocabulary, and math, too - how long does it take a new species to spread? and what other forces contribute to the spread? history and biology, time and distribution and probability. Real learning is not a bunch of neat lists with a quiz on thursday ;) it happens right under your nose, so much so that you don't realize what your kids are learning until someday you're out to dinner with a friend and your kid makes some comment which leaves you wondering... when did you learn that?

> She is a very good reader but never remembers what she reads.

Nothing? Not even Exit and Walmart and Recycle and Start? I bet she remembers those ;)

If she's interested, she'll remember what interests her, but you also said she's very social. She may well learn best by talking to other people. Ray's like that - and because he has had the chance to learn that way, he knows that the best way for him to learn is to set himself up with someone who can tell him what he needs to know. That sounds funny, like he's learned he needs a teacher, but its no funnier than learning one works best from a diagram or from figuring things out from scratch. It may be reading isn't a good way for your daughter to gather information - so Knowing that is Important for her. It's better for her to have a sense of how she really learns than to have some idea of how she's "supposed" to learn.

---Meredith






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joyce Fetteroll

On Sep 30, 2011, at 4:45 PM, Denise Jordan wrote:

> what if she never ask me those questions you mentioned? Is she
> figuring all that out on her on? I know that sounds dumb but how do
> i know she is thinking in terms of what you were saying about trash
> and how long it take to fill the bag etc.

You're thinking of her in terms of her being defective and not as good
as our kids. That won't help!

How did you know she was progressing with acquiring language? Most of
it was hidden. But you trusted it was working even if you only saw
bits and pieces of something new every once in a while because you
knew it worked for everyone.

Unschoolers know unschooling works for every child because we can see
it -- from a long term point of view -- happening. It happens because
humans are hardwired to learn like that. Just as we're hardwired to
breathe the way we do.

If you need feedback that learning is happening, it's best to put her
in school. Unschooling won't provide school style feed back. It won't
look like school. It will look like video games. It will look like
picking up trash.

Maybe keep a daily blog. Don't look for learning. Especially don't
look for school. Observe them. Write about what they're doing.

Read this:

http://sandradodd.com/pam/howto

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Denise Jordan

No, I DO NOT think my child is defective. I am simply new at this and trying to understand. maybe to the veterans in this I seem petty with my questions but Im just trying to understand all of this. I have just started looking into unschooling in the last month, so yes, I am full of questions and second quessing myself. Is that not normal? To me it must be or there wouldn't be so much written about deschooling.




To: [email protected]
From: jfetteroll@...
Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2011 17:38:29 -0400
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Re: I'm freaking out a little.







On Sep 30, 2011, at 4:45 PM, Denise Jordan wrote:

> what if she never ask me those questions you mentioned? Is she
> figuring all that out on her on? I know that sounds dumb but how do
> i know she is thinking in terms of what you were saying about trash
> and how long it take to fill the bag etc.

You're thinking of her in terms of her being defective and not as good
as our kids. That won't help!

How did you know she was progressing with acquiring language? Most of
it was hidden. But you trusted it was working even if you only saw
bits and pieces of something new every once in a while because you
knew it worked for everyone.

Unschoolers know unschooling works for every child because we can see
it -- from a long term point of view -- happening. It happens because
humans are hardwired to learn like that. Just as we're hardwired to
breathe the way we do.

If you need feedback that learning is happening, it's best to put her
in school. Unschooling won't provide school style feed back. It won't
look like school. It will look like video games. It will look like
picking up trash.

Maybe keep a daily blog. Don't look for learning. Especially don't
look for school. Observe them. Write about what they're doing.

Read this:

http://sandradodd.com/pam/howto

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Tova

Very true indeed. A very useless subject to learn, unless a child is interested of course. My daughter (10) learned parts of speech by doing Mad Libs. A simple, fun way of learning something so unnecessary. :)

--- On Fri, 9/30/11, Debra Rossing <debra.rossing@...> wrote:

From: Debra Rossing <debra.rossing@...>
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: I'm freaking out a little.
To: "'[email protected]'" <[email protected]>
Date: Friday, September 30, 2011, 12:22 PM







 









>. I guess im thinking in terms of learning verbs, adverbs etc but i guess she may never need it



I work with a bunch of professional technical writers (some of whom have had work published - go to Amazon and look up "Clay Walnum" - he's written a bunch of books on various programming subjects, I work with him; others have won awards from professional organizations) and I asked them one time how important it was to know things like this. Their collective response was "mostly immaterial" though it might occasionally help them figure out why a particular sentence looks/sounds 'odd'. So even professional writers don't need to be able to parse sentences. If they don't need to, who does? (except maybe public school English grammar teachers)



Deb R



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Kelly Lovejoy

Try your best to think the BEST of her.


She may never think of *anything* Meredith suggested. Does it matter?



But...she may take the time to think about the best way to keep people from trashing the earth in the first place! Or a giant vacuum that only picks up trash---who knows???



How do YOU figure things out? How do YOU know you're learning something? How do YOU use your time to work things out?


She will find her way. And even if she doesn't think of all those things Meredith suggested, she *will* be thinking about stuff. Guaranteed. It's what humans DO.


Be available. When she needs an answer, look it up if you don't know it. Let her see you figuring things out. Let her see you finding the answers. Let her see you throw up your hands and say, "I'm clueless! I have NO idea!"


Don't turn everything into a "lesson." Just be available and answer the questions.


What if she doesn't ask questions? Don't worry! She may be one of those who prefers to look things up on her own. Make sure she has really good internet access and a library card. Don't hinder her time on the computer! Show her (if she doesn't know already) how informational youtube is!! Help her find experts in that field---whatever it is.


See her (and your son) as absolutely BRILLIANT. Always. In every situation. If they don't *seem* especially brilliant in a certain situation, assume they are trying their best to figure it out. Be their guide, their partner, their facilitator, their friend.


They will surprise you. All. The. Time.





~Kelly

Kelly Lovejoy
"There is no single effort more radical in its potential for saving the world than a transformation of the way we raise our children." Marianne Williamson



-----Original Message-----
From: Denise Jordan <denisejordan4@...>


In some of this with my daughter, what

if she never ask me those questions you mentioned? Is she figuring all that out
on her on? I know that sounds dumb but how do i know she is thinking in terms
of what you were saying about trash and how long it take to fill the bag etc.






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joyce Fetteroll

On Sep 30, 2011, at 6:09 PM, Denise Jordan wrote:

> No, I DO NOT think my child is defective.

My point was to show you how dramatically you're thinking. So of
course you're scared! Maybe go back through your posts and look at how
many times you've phrased things in excessive ways:

what if she never ask me those questions
What happens if she never wants to learn any type of vocabulary, math,
history, etc.
he hates it.
all he wants to do is play video games all day and night.
worry that they will not succeed

Your mental wheels are spinning on these scary scenarios you're
creating in your head.

You're standing at the end of the diving board telling us all the
worst things you can imagine of that could possibly go wrong.

The only person who can convince you is you. And the best way to do
that is to jump off the dive and experience it.

If being told was anything like experiencing, then schools would be
great places to learn!

Spend the next month living, enjoying life. Pretend school doesn't
exist. Be on vacation. *Be* with your children :-)

Joyce






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Kristie

I have really had to laugh at myself after reading all your responses on this.
I thought it was the end of the world...but it's really not that big of deal.
He was just "fitting in" with all the other responders on there...he didn't
offend anyone, or attack anyone. I guess in the past I have really expected my
children to be little robots...only thinking and doing what I wanted them
to...that it was MY JOB to make sure they towed the line and had the "right"
behavior. In the past, I have been an active member of a parenting board that
regularly says to "win the battle" and "outlast" your children.

Ug. I'm really seeing how much of my parenting has been useless, pointless
fighting. Stress. It's kinda hard to not be mad at myself!

Kristie



________________________________
From: "marbleface@..." <marbleface@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Fri, September 30, 2011 12:14:27 PM
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: I'm freaking out a little.


Your 13-year-old cussed and this is news? No, that's called real life. :)

Nance

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Kristie

"Every time you put on limits (If that's what you're doing) you're
resetting the clock."

There's been a couple moments when I almost went back and put out a limit, but I
haven't yet.

"It helps to let go of the idea they need to go at 18. If you get that
image out of your head and picture them exploring the world, and then
going on to college to study whatever fascinates them at, say. 25, it
will help you stop seeing "the end" rapidly approaching."

This is VERY helpful to me. With my 13 yo, I was really feeling the pressure of
18 rapidly approaching.

I will now RELAX.

Kristie





________________________________
From: Joyce Fetteroll <jfetteroll@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Fri, September 30, 2011 2:52:21 AM
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] I'm freaking out a little.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Kristie

I would much rather us have an open relationship. I don't want the "us versus
them" mentality that most parents/children have. He has told me that I am
treating him like a baby...I am slowly loosening my grip.

Thanks,
Kristie



________________________________
From: Joyce Fetteroll <jfetteroll@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Thu, September 29, 2011 8:40:44 PM
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] I'm freaking out a little.



You have two options basically. You can keep the lines of
communication open so you can pass on some advice if you see him
cussing or doing other things to hurt someone.

Or you can provide him with the opportunity to learn how to sneak
around whatever roadblocks you set up.

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]