internet
Kristie
I was hoping you all could give me some insight into balancing my responsibility
to protect my children vs. giving them freedom and respect.
Computer and the internet specifically is what I had in mind. Right now, I have
the browser on my son's PSP locked so that he can't access the internet. And
he's mad about it. Says I am treating him like a baby (he's 13).
I also won't let him have a computer in his room because he wants internet and I
don't want him on the internet behind a closed door in his room. Right now we
have a family computer in the kitchen where they can access the internet.
Any thoughts on how to handle this? For a while,they did have access and
'someone' (I think my 10yo) was trying to watch certain movies on Netflix that
they should not be watching, so I set up parental controls on that and locked
their browsers. I never said anything to him because I didn't know how to do it
without embarrassing him.
Thanks,
Kristie
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
to protect my children vs. giving them freedom and respect.
Computer and the internet specifically is what I had in mind. Right now, I have
the browser on my son's PSP locked so that he can't access the internet. And
he's mad about it. Says I am treating him like a baby (he's 13).
I also won't let him have a computer in his room because he wants internet and I
don't want him on the internet behind a closed door in his room. Right now we
have a family computer in the kitchen where they can access the internet.
Any thoughts on how to handle this? For a while,they did have access and
'someone' (I think my 10yo) was trying to watch certain movies on Netflix that
they should not be watching, so I set up parental controls on that and locked
their browsers. I never said anything to him because I didn't know how to do it
without embarrassing him.
Thanks,
Kristie
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
plaidpanties666
I want to start out by articulating an important principle when you're transitioning into unschooling: Don't drop all your rules at once. Instead, say Yes more, ease in to offering more choices. That sets you up for increasingly better relationships rather than confusing everyone in the family for weeks at best and possibly resulting in "cracking down" and deciding unschooling won't work.
Go Slowly.
Kristie <messy_boys@...> wrote:
Say yes more. The time-stamp on your email is 2pm - is that accurate? If you're awake and able to hang out with your kids, have internet access available to them. It's a tremendous learning resource, one they'll find useful their whole lives, so they might as well get comfortable using it Now, when they have an adult handy to consult.
It may mean you need another computer - you have a lot of people using just one, and that can very easily create a feeling of limitation if there's a lot of "waiting to use the computer" going on. Imagine if only one person in the family could go into a library or museum at a time - it seems crazy, doesn't it? See the internet in that light.
While the kids are on the computer, hang out with them. See what they're looking at, what they're doing. Be available to answer questions and to share interesting things. All of those are good things in and of themselves, but in addition if you're close by you can note when someone is going to go to a site which will produce a lot of pop-ups, spam, and potentially leave a virus on your computer.
THAT's where you start talking about "internet safety" - you start in a non-confrontational way with something that makes sense. No-one wants the computer to have a virus or to get stuck with a ton of spam! Your kids don't any more than you do. You may find your 13yo already knows how to avoid a lot of that kind of thing already, and that's a good thing (it would also prove his point that you're not taking him seriously, something you could then acknowledge and apologize for doing). You could point out, calmly and informationaly, that visiting certain porn sites can leave computers more vulnerable to spam and viruses, so he'll want to be extra careful in that regard. It's not All porn sites, though, so don't try to use it as some kind of scare tactic - he'll find out otherwise eventually.
One of the principles of unschooling could be expressed as: don't set your kids up to fail. Having lots of rules and restrictions sets kids up to fail over and over - even when they're Following the rules it can feel like a kind of failure because they're not getting the valuable, restricted thing. Instead, help kids learn about the world. Make their worlds big and inviting and make yourself available to act as a helper and safety net so they have a chance to make mistakes without those mistakes being disasters.
---Meredith
Go Slowly.
Kristie <messy_boys@...> wrote:
> Right now, I haveThe trouble with limiting something is that you turn that something into a special luxury. You make it more desirable. That's an entirely natural consequence of limits and that understanding lies underneath a great many aspects of unschooling. When you limit something, you set your kids up to Want it more and therefore to be Less Thoughtful about how they use or consume that thing.
> the browser on my son's PSP locked so that he can't access the internet. And
> he's mad about it. Says I am treating him like a baby (he's 13).
Say yes more. The time-stamp on your email is 2pm - is that accurate? If you're awake and able to hang out with your kids, have internet access available to them. It's a tremendous learning resource, one they'll find useful their whole lives, so they might as well get comfortable using it Now, when they have an adult handy to consult.
It may mean you need another computer - you have a lot of people using just one, and that can very easily create a feeling of limitation if there's a lot of "waiting to use the computer" going on. Imagine if only one person in the family could go into a library or museum at a time - it seems crazy, doesn't it? See the internet in that light.
While the kids are on the computer, hang out with them. See what they're looking at, what they're doing. Be available to answer questions and to share interesting things. All of those are good things in and of themselves, but in addition if you're close by you can note when someone is going to go to a site which will produce a lot of pop-ups, spam, and potentially leave a virus on your computer.
THAT's where you start talking about "internet safety" - you start in a non-confrontational way with something that makes sense. No-one wants the computer to have a virus or to get stuck with a ton of spam! Your kids don't any more than you do. You may find your 13yo already knows how to avoid a lot of that kind of thing already, and that's a good thing (it would also prove his point that you're not taking him seriously, something you could then acknowledge and apologize for doing). You could point out, calmly and informationaly, that visiting certain porn sites can leave computers more vulnerable to spam and viruses, so he'll want to be extra careful in that regard. It's not All porn sites, though, so don't try to use it as some kind of scare tactic - he'll find out otherwise eventually.
>>For a while,they did have access andAgain, remember that limits make things valuable. If you've made things "off limits" for your kids to see, you've made those things more exciting and important. Say yes more. Start questioning your own fears about what kids "shouldn't" see - bring them here if you want.
> 'someone' (I think my 10yo) was trying to watch certain movies on Netflix that
> they should not be watching
One of the principles of unschooling could be expressed as: don't set your kids up to fail. Having lots of rules and restrictions sets kids up to fail over and over - even when they're Following the rules it can feel like a kind of failure because they're not getting the valuable, restricted thing. Instead, help kids learn about the world. Make their worlds big and inviting and make yourself available to act as a helper and safety net so they have a chance to make mistakes without those mistakes being disasters.
---Meredith
Anita
Hi Kristie,
I went to a 'netsafe' talk a while ago here in NZ and they basically said
parental controls were not the best idea because they can always find a way
around them http://www.netsafe.org.nz/keeping_safe.php?sectionID=parents
Instead they used an analogy of 'teaching ' your child to walk - start by
sitting next to them 'holding their hand', talk to them about what is
appropriate to look at and what is not and then gently step away. This fits
with my philosophy.
On the whole 'nappropriate material' stuff a 13 yr old boy will be curious.
A man I respect very much recently told me that most men look at soft porn
sometimes. Perhaps it's time to sit down and have a talk about what is ok
and what isn't and why. For example most young men may want to look at
pictures of people naked but you might need to explain that pictures that
degrade women are not ok. Same with children, animals etc. Obviously a very
sensitive area and probably one to be tackled by a man in his life but if
you don't give him any guidance he's on his own!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I went to a 'netsafe' talk a while ago here in NZ and they basically said
parental controls were not the best idea because they can always find a way
around them http://www.netsafe.org.nz/keeping_safe.php?sectionID=parents
Instead they used an analogy of 'teaching ' your child to walk - start by
sitting next to them 'holding their hand', talk to them about what is
appropriate to look at and what is not and then gently step away. This fits
with my philosophy.
On the whole 'nappropriate material' stuff a 13 yr old boy will be curious.
A man I respect very much recently told me that most men look at soft porn
sometimes. Perhaps it's time to sit down and have a talk about what is ok
and what isn't and why. For example most young men may want to look at
pictures of people naked but you might need to explain that pictures that
degrade women are not ok. Same with children, animals etc. Obviously a very
sensitive area and probably one to be tackled by a man in his life but if
you don't give him any guidance he's on his own!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Meredith
My computer had a glitchy moment, so sorry if this comes through twice - there are extra links at the bottom of this post that aren't in the other:
"Anita" <anita@...> wrote:
If you want your kids to be sensitive to the needs of other people, be sensitive to their needs. If you want your sons to be careful of others' feelings, be careful of Their feelings. Make your home a place where it's safe to be gentle and kind And passionate. Make it a place where it is safe for kids to talk to parents, where a boy can say "can you believe this website? its atrocious! I can't believe there are people who Like this kind of stuff!" whether it's a website of crocheted doilies or pornography.
Which isn't to say they Will come to you with that, necessarily. Kids can be very shy of sharing their thoughts on sex and sexuality with their parents, and that's okay, too.
They may even have a difference of opinion with parents as to what's "degrading" - adult opinions on the subject range from "all erotica and pornography is degrading" and would include Georgia O'Keefe's paintings in that category (yes, really) to "as long as the model/actor consents its fine". Those could be topics which come up in conversation with your kids - and that's where watching tv and movies with kids can come in really handy, especially if you step away from worries over "adult content" and let ideas and topics swirl around.
There are some collected comments on online safety here:
http://sandradodd.com/onlinesafety
and teens and sex here:
http://sandradodd.com/sex
---Meredith
"Anita" <anita@...> wrote:
>>Perhaps it's time to sit down and have a talk about what is okNo, please! Don't explain that at all! Teenage boys aren't disembodied penises with no intellect or moral fiber, they're curious, sensitive young people trying to learn about themselves and the world. Given a chance, they'll tell You that the kind of pornography that seeks to degrade other people is offensive. Explaining it belittles and degrades them as people.
> and what isn't and why. For example most young men may want to look at
> pictures of people naked but you might need to explain that pictures that
> degrade women are not ok.
If you want your kids to be sensitive to the needs of other people, be sensitive to their needs. If you want your sons to be careful of others' feelings, be careful of Their feelings. Make your home a place where it's safe to be gentle and kind And passionate. Make it a place where it is safe for kids to talk to parents, where a boy can say "can you believe this website? its atrocious! I can't believe there are people who Like this kind of stuff!" whether it's a website of crocheted doilies or pornography.
Which isn't to say they Will come to you with that, necessarily. Kids can be very shy of sharing their thoughts on sex and sexuality with their parents, and that's okay, too.
They may even have a difference of opinion with parents as to what's "degrading" - adult opinions on the subject range from "all erotica and pornography is degrading" and would include Georgia O'Keefe's paintings in that category (yes, really) to "as long as the model/actor consents its fine". Those could be topics which come up in conversation with your kids - and that's where watching tv and movies with kids can come in really handy, especially if you step away from worries over "adult content" and let ideas and topics swirl around.
There are some collected comments on online safety here:
http://sandradodd.com/onlinesafety
and teens and sex here:
http://sandradodd.com/sex
---Meredith
Shahriar Khan
Hi All,
I have been a lurker on the fence unschooling Dad here on this list. I
wanted to speak up about internet usage. The way we do it at our house is
that, any computers in the kids space (Our older is 11) has
K9<http://www1.k9webprotection.com/>web protect (FREE) on them. This
is a great resource that blocks
questionable sites, and allows you to expose your kids to the internet with
your guidance. When we are not around, we only want our kid to be able to
access safe sites. You can configure the experience by turning on or off P2P
file sharing, Video sharing(youtube), Chat, all the way to Adult material.
When a page comes up that meets one of the restricted criteria, you can over
ride it using a parent password. Some sites (like Anime streaming) we can
make exceptions and allow permanently, or just for 10, 30 or 60 minutes.
A couple years ago when we found out our kid had stumbled upon some not
age appropriate websites, we talked to him about that they are and how its
not appropriate for their age openly, and we agreed upon this mutually. Now
when he is blocked by the K9 web protect service we talk about why it might
or might not be appropriate and apply exceptions together.
One note is that, we were surprised to find how much pornographic material
is available on youtube! Since then youtube visits have been supervised.
Its been working just fine for us so far. However, not sure how/when the
unrestricted internet should be open to them. Would appreciate some comments
on that.
I guess the underlying principal is that talking to your kids about what
they are comfortable with openly, and you'd be surprised how much
they censor themselves with the right knowledge, and just need your
guidance.
I should say most of the unshcooling "we" involves my wife leading, and me
following along.
-Khan
http://listn.to/khan
www.beheshto.ca
create::share::celebrate
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I have been a lurker on the fence unschooling Dad here on this list. I
wanted to speak up about internet usage. The way we do it at our house is
that, any computers in the kids space (Our older is 11) has
K9<http://www1.k9webprotection.com/>web protect (FREE) on them. This
is a great resource that blocks
questionable sites, and allows you to expose your kids to the internet with
your guidance. When we are not around, we only want our kid to be able to
access safe sites. You can configure the experience by turning on or off P2P
file sharing, Video sharing(youtube), Chat, all the way to Adult material.
When a page comes up that meets one of the restricted criteria, you can over
ride it using a parent password. Some sites (like Anime streaming) we can
make exceptions and allow permanently, or just for 10, 30 or 60 minutes.
A couple years ago when we found out our kid had stumbled upon some not
age appropriate websites, we talked to him about that they are and how its
not appropriate for their age openly, and we agreed upon this mutually. Now
when he is blocked by the K9 web protect service we talk about why it might
or might not be appropriate and apply exceptions together.
One note is that, we were surprised to find how much pornographic material
is available on youtube! Since then youtube visits have been supervised.
Its been working just fine for us so far. However, not sure how/when the
unrestricted internet should be open to them. Would appreciate some comments
on that.
I guess the underlying principal is that talking to your kids about what
they are comfortable with openly, and you'd be surprised how much
they censor themselves with the right knowledge, and just need your
guidance.
I should say most of the unshcooling "we" involves my wife leading, and me
following along.
-Khan
http://listn.to/khan
www.beheshto.ca
create::share::celebrate
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce Fetteroll
On Sep 19, 2011, at 1:39 PM, Shahriar Khan wrote:
approach.
Being present with kids as they explore is a way to put unschooling
principles in actions. It will support their learning and build their
trust that parents are there to help them explore in ways that are
respectful and safe rather than a wall that slams down when the parent
wants to stop what the child is doing.
If my husband or a friend said that to me just because of who I am, it
would put a really big hole in the relationship.
There *are* ways to build relationships *and* help kids be safe and
help them keep the computer safe. The above isn't one of them.
shut off after 10, 30 or 60 minutes because *he* thought that was
enough for me, I'd be pissed and not be thinking nice thoughts about
him or our relationship.
software. Let them decide what to block and what not to block.
Being someone's partner, helping them explore what fascinates them
about life *and* avoid the things they don't like, builds
relationships and helps them gain skills to help themselves.
Trust kids! *Help* them with tools to be safe rather than deciding
what's safe and imposing it on them.
watch over them?
Conventional parenting thought is to impose the "right" values on
kids, watch over them and make them go through the motions of
following the same values as mom and dad. Or set up rules so they can
be punished if they make the wrong choices. And then wish for the best.
Better for relationships, *better for learning* (now and life long),
is trusting them and helping them find ways to avoid what *they* don't
want.
YouTube so they can screen out stuff they don't want. (Though if
they're really young more than likely they want a parent right there
with them because they like having their favorite people with them as
they do things.) If their search terms are pulling up stuff that isn't
what they want, and they can't figure out better ways, show them.
(Though it's more likely the adults will have problems figuring out
Google than the kids!)
what they want to see and what they don't want to see. Censoring
carries connotations of desire to see but being prevented.
Kids don't need to talk about what they're comfortable with if they're
supported in using their comfort level as a guide. Too often parents
short circuit that unintentionally by imposing what they believe is
better for the child.
Children won't make the choices parents do. They will explore avenues
the parents wouldn't choose for them. But if we trust them and support
them in trusting themselves, help them with the tools that will help
them find what they want and avoid what they don't want, they will
grow in their experience of making choices. They will gain confidence
in their "comfort meter." So when they're faced with more deadly
choices as teens, they've had lots and lots and lots of experience
thinking through problems and weighing choices and listening to their
inner voices.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> This"Exposing kids with guidance" doesn't sound like an unschooling
> is a great resource that blocks
> questionable sites, and allows you to expose your kids to the
> internet with
> your guidance.
approach.
Being present with kids as they explore is a way to put unschooling
principles in actions. It will support their learning and build their
trust that parents are there to help them explore in ways that are
respectful and safe rather than a wall that slams down when the parent
wants to stop what the child is doing.
> When we are not around, we only want our kid to be able toAnd your actions are saying "I don't trust you."
> access safe sites.
If my husband or a friend said that to me just because of who I am, it
would put a really big hole in the relationship.
There *are* ways to build relationships *and* help kids be safe and
help them keep the computer safe. The above isn't one of them.
> Some sites (like Anime streaming) we canAnd if my husband rigged the TV (or computer or my bedside light) to
> make exceptions and allow permanently, or just for 10, 30 or 60
> minutes.
shut off after 10, 30 or 60 minutes because *he* thought that was
enough for me, I'd be pissed and not be thinking nice thoughts about
him or our relationship.
> A couple years ago when we found out our kid had stumbled upon someEven better for unschooling, let the kids have control of the
> not
> age appropriate websites, we talked to him about that they are and
> how its
> not appropriate for their age openly, and we agreed upon this
> mutually.
software. Let them decide what to block and what not to block.
Being someone's partner, helping them explore what fascinates them
about life *and* avoid the things they don't like, builds
relationships and helps them gain skills to help themselves.
Trust kids! *Help* them with tools to be safe rather than deciding
what's safe and imposing it on them.
> One note is that, we were surprised to find how much pornographicWhat happens when they're at someone else's house without you there to
> material
> is available on youtube! Since then youtube visits have been
> supervised.
watch over them?
Conventional parenting thought is to impose the "right" values on
kids, watch over them and make them go through the motions of
following the same values as mom and dad. Or set up rules so they can
be punished if they make the wrong choices. And then wish for the best.
Better for relationships, *better for learning* (now and life long),
is trusting them and helping them find ways to avoid what *they* don't
want.
> Its been working just fine for us so far. However, not sure how/whenDay One. And then show them where the controls are on Google and
> the
> unrestricted internet should be open to them. Would appreciate some
> comments
> on that.
YouTube so they can screen out stuff they don't want. (Though if
they're really young more than likely they want a parent right there
with them because they like having their favorite people with them as
they do things.) If their search terms are pulling up stuff that isn't
what they want, and they can't figure out better ways, show them.
(Though it's more likely the adults will have problems figuring out
Google than the kids!)
> I guess the underlying principal is that talking to your kids aboutThey aren't censoring themselves. Kids are making choices based on
> what
> they are comfortable with openly, and you'd be surprised how much
> they censor themselves with the right knowledge, and just need your
> guidance.
what they want to see and what they don't want to see. Censoring
carries connotations of desire to see but being prevented.
Kids don't need to talk about what they're comfortable with if they're
supported in using their comfort level as a guide. Too often parents
short circuit that unintentionally by imposing what they believe is
better for the child.
Children won't make the choices parents do. They will explore avenues
the parents wouldn't choose for them. But if we trust them and support
them in trusting themselves, help them with the tools that will help
them find what they want and avoid what they don't want, they will
grow in their experience of making choices. They will gain confidence
in their "comfort meter." So when they're faced with more deadly
choices as teens, they've had lots and lots and lots of experience
thinking through problems and weighing choices and listening to their
inner voices.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Kristie
Joyce, this makes a lot of sense to me, but at the same time is hard to
swallow. I guess I feel like I am giving them a stick of dynamite to play
with. Pornography can be addictive. ???
Any additional thoughts appreciated...
Kristie
swallow. I guess I feel like I am giving them a stick of dynamite to play
with. Pornography can be addictive. ???
Any additional thoughts appreciated...
Kristie
Meredith
Shahriar Khan <beheshto@...> wrote:
This is something I've gotten to see directly, since my stepson has been living with me for five years, but also spending time at his bio mom's house where there are a lot of rules and limits designed to protect him. And Ray's consistently made less thoughtful decisions in that environment or when he has a lot of contact with his mom - the more she tries to protect him, the more likely he is to do something dangerous.
---Meredith
> When we are not around, we only want our kid to be able toIt helps to assume that your child wants to access safe sites and help him to do that - hiding those sites from him doesn't help him learn the skills he needs to keep Himself safe. It prevents him from learning those skills. If he decides to use the internet in a way you don't control, he'll be vulnerable by not knowing what to expect And he'll be vulnerable because he'll be more focused on "pulling one over on dad" than on being thoughtful. *That's* how teens make dangerous decisions - all their intellect is being used to get around parents instead of evaluating the real dangers in the world.
> access safe sites
This is something I've gotten to see directly, since my stepson has been living with me for five years, but also spending time at his bio mom's house where there are a lot of rules and limits designed to protect him. And Ray's consistently made less thoughtful decisions in that environment or when he has a lot of contact with his mom - the more she tries to protect him, the more likely he is to do something dangerous.
> I guess the underlying principal is that talking to your kids about whatThey don't even need "guidance" if you're talking to them openly and helping them do what they want to do. They may want information or feedback or have questions for you, but they don't need to be told to stay "safe, sane and consensual" - although they may need an explanation of why principle like that is useful and why some people will go beyond them.
> they are comfortable with openly, and you'd be surprised how much
> they censor themselves with the right knowledge, and just need your
> guidance.
---Meredith
Ulrike Haupt
Kristie
you wrote "Pornography can be addictive. ???"
I think/believe that addiction only happens when a fear of a deficit of something is
perceived somehow. I really firmly believe and know if there is 'enoughness' of 'whatever'
there is no 'need' for any addictve behaviour at all.
An example - for many years sweetness/perceived love was not enough in my life and I was
addicted to sugar/chocolate. When I was able to let go of my 'angst' of not enough
sweetness (being loved for who I am not) it became a total NON-ISSUE and now the crowd
around me can have the sweetest (chocolate) cakes and it lets me absolutely 'cold'. (What
a joke! It was my parent's 60th wedding anniversary last Saturday. 5 Cakes for 13 people!
Argh! I am still shuddering. The small piece of 'sugar free' apple tart I had was actually
too much already for me. <grin> ) BUT I have other 'anxieties' that I have not figured out
yet and they have me deeply addicted to some other stuff.
Just this afternoon as I was driving along I thought how ridiculous it is for anyone to
want to not allow anyone else to not do anything that they think is not appropriate for
any reason. It is what wars are made of.
Blissings
Ulrike
__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 6477
(20110919) __________
The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
http://www.eset.com
__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 6477
(20110919) __________
The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
http://www.eset.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
you wrote "Pornography can be addictive. ???"
I think/believe that addiction only happens when a fear of a deficit of something is
perceived somehow. I really firmly believe and know if there is 'enoughness' of 'whatever'
there is no 'need' for any addictve behaviour at all.
An example - for many years sweetness/perceived love was not enough in my life and I was
addicted to sugar/chocolate. When I was able to let go of my 'angst' of not enough
sweetness (being loved for who I am not) it became a total NON-ISSUE and now the crowd
around me can have the sweetest (chocolate) cakes and it lets me absolutely 'cold'. (What
a joke! It was my parent's 60th wedding anniversary last Saturday. 5 Cakes for 13 people!
Argh! I am still shuddering. The small piece of 'sugar free' apple tart I had was actually
too much already for me. <grin> ) BUT I have other 'anxieties' that I have not figured out
yet and they have me deeply addicted to some other stuff.
Just this afternoon as I was driving along I thought how ridiculous it is for anyone to
want to not allow anyone else to not do anything that they think is not appropriate for
any reason. It is what wars are made of.
Blissings
Ulrike
__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 6477
(20110919) __________
The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
http://www.eset.com
__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 6477
(20110919) __________
The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
http://www.eset.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Meredith
Kristie <messy_boys@...> wrote:
---Meredith
>> I guess I feel like I am giving them a stick of dynamite to playPeople don't become addicted to things at random - even people with a genetic predisposition don't. Environment plays a biiiiiiig role! An environment which seems unsafe and overwhelming can lead some people to look for an escape. And environment which sets people up for low self esteem and feelings of powerlessness can lead some people to do self-destructive things because then they at least have power over some of their own hurt. Does any of that describe your home or your kids? If so, that's something to look for ways to change.
> with. Pornography can be addictive. ???
---Meredith
Joyce Fetteroll
On Sep 19, 2011, at 3:33 PM, Kristie wrote:
with?
If all the things people fear were addictive really were, then radical
unschooling kids would be totally messed up! They'd be addicted to TV,
sugar, "junk" food, internet, video games, buying stuff because
radical unschoolers don't put artificial limits on those. Since
addicts need to keep upping the dose to get the same effect, our kids
would be so strung out by all their addictions by the time they were
20 that I'd hope there would be a general uproar against unschooling!
What makes way more sense, what fits with what we see in our own kids,
is that none of these things is addictive. Not even drugs. What causes
addiction is the need to escape an environment that's painful in some
way that they have no control over.
Schuyler has posted the Rat Park studies that show that drugs aren't
addictive. (The study is worth reading no matter what you fear is
addictive.) The need for drugs is caused by stressful environments,
not the drugs themselves.
http://www.walrusmagazine.com/articles/2007.12-health-rat-trap/
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Joyce, this makes a lot of sense to me, but at the same time is hardWhy would I recommend that parents give their kids dynamite to play
> to
> swallow. I guess I feel like I am giving them a stick of dynamite to
> play
> with. Pornography can be addictive. ???
with?
If all the things people fear were addictive really were, then radical
unschooling kids would be totally messed up! They'd be addicted to TV,
sugar, "junk" food, internet, video games, buying stuff because
radical unschoolers don't put artificial limits on those. Since
addicts need to keep upping the dose to get the same effect, our kids
would be so strung out by all their addictions by the time they were
20 that I'd hope there would be a general uproar against unschooling!
What makes way more sense, what fits with what we see in our own kids,
is that none of these things is addictive. Not even drugs. What causes
addiction is the need to escape an environment that's painful in some
way that they have no control over.
Schuyler has posted the Rat Park studies that show that drugs aren't
addictive. (The study is worth reading no matter what you fear is
addictive.) The need for drugs is caused by stressful environments,
not the drugs themselves.
http://www.walrusmagazine.com/articles/2007.12-health-rat-trap/
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
meadowgirl11
--- In [email protected], "Meredith" <plaidpanties666@...> wrote:
My husband, who is much more onboard than he realizes and just not a wordsmith like some of the writers here, didn't really give the context and how the whole thing worked for us. Basically, when T was 8 and we had just started unschooling/deschooling, he was really pushing for unlimited access to media, which we were still struggling with, but since our start with unschooling came because of serious, destructive power struggles, we felt pushed to lift limits faster than was probably wise. With me very busy with an active baby/toddler and working hard to apply the principles of unschooling without really having the relationship and trust established, and T still in a pretty negative head space, he found his way onto some porn sites and basically visited them every time we were out of the room for several months. We found out by accident when Khan was doing some computer stuff and looked at the history. He was unfortunately exposed to some pretty nasty stuff and not just once or by accident. At the time he was really exploring the limits and would be on the computer for marathon 6 to 8 hour sessions with very little break, staying up into the early morning watching anime and movies and also frequently visiting these sites, as we discovered. With a small babe taking a lot of time and energy and needing to be on the move a lot with her as well as occasionally sleep, we missed a lot of what was going on for him at the time.
The solutions were however not done as any kind of punishment, but with full involvement and agreement from T. He said (and when I checked in with him today, still says) that he felt out of control, very uncomfortable but also very attracted to what he was seeing and was happy to not have the choice to visit those sites anymore at the time. We did give him the choice of whether or not to block them or come up with some other solution. We also moved his computer and later his whole room into the main area of the house rather than downstairs, which while public, had been quite isolated for him. We spent much more time with him watching his anime, playing his games and building the relationship and we said yes for as long as he wanted any time he wanted to watch something blocked, which has never been anything we'd worry about since that time. The only control we put on was for sexually explicit content and even then we will happily figure out a solution if there is something he wants to see that might fall under that category, like Austin Powers which he loved. Really, having worked in sexual health education, I know kids, especially preteens and teens, are going to find stuff, whether it is a friend's dad's stash or somebody's big brother's videos or whatever. If he wanted to watch explicit sexual content now, I would find a way to safely support that interest, although I'd obviously encourage other sources than graphic internet porn. And at this point (he is 11 now and we have been unschooling for 3 years) I feel pretty good about the relationship and about his own sense of himself, which at the time was pretty compromised, as Meredith suggests.
I know why you would make the points you did Joyce and I think they are totally valid and important, especially for people new to the list and to unschooling in general. Having been on the list for 3 years and seeing the kind of comments and responses people get on other lists, I know it is what needs to be said. What Khan wrote, taken out of context, doesn't fit with the view of unschooling that this list is meant to focus on. At the same time, in this situation, in this context, we felt safety really was in question and we did our best to work with T to help him feel safe, loved and also trusted as much as we could at the time. Over the last few years I have grown to really trust my kids, much more than I did back then, but I still don't entirely trust the internet, especially with a child who is really impulsive and has a history of feeling like he needs (and still has a need to with his bio dad) to sneak, lie and generally not trust adults to be on his side and also had some pretty big empty places he was trying to fill. Now that he is much more full, it is a different picture, although he will likely never have he full experience that always unschooled kids with both parents on board have.
I actually find it quite amusing that what Khan wrote would make it look like we control and limit our kids exposure to media, which couldn't be further from the truth. I have come so far in my parenting journey with that, from a totally TV free early childlhood, waldorf school and tight parental control on media of all sorts, to having fun watching Buffy with T or watching him play minecraft or chat with xbox live friends all over the world while A plays games on her ipod with her dad or watches favorite shows on netflix on one of many TV's, computers and idevices in our home. Khan is actually the media guy in the family and I have him to thank for all the awesome geekery we have like a networked media server that can play movies from one hardrive onto any computer in the house. He does still have a lot of hang-ups about it, but he keeps them to himself for the most part. It was probably good for him to hear it from someone else but me.
Anyway, maybe the clarification here will shed some light for anyone considering shifting from limits on media and internet. It has certainly been a journey in our lives and will continue to evolve as kids get older and needs and interests change, but I can say for sure that I wouldn't go back to the way it was before, even though we have dealt with some pretty intense stuff because of it.
~ Tammy
>>This is something I've gotten to see directly, since my stepson has been living with me for five years, but also spending time at his bio mom's house where there are a lot of rules and limits designed to protect him. And Ray's consistently made less thoughtful decisions in that environment or when he has a lot of contact with his mom - the more she tries to protect him, the more likely he is to do something dangerous. <<Thanks for bringing that up Meredith. It might help with the discussion to know that the child in question is coming from a very similar background to Ray, with Khan being his step-dad and coming to unschooling after years of controlling, back and forth parenting and lots of difficulties with behaviour, limits, expectations, etc.
My husband, who is much more onboard than he realizes and just not a wordsmith like some of the writers here, didn't really give the context and how the whole thing worked for us. Basically, when T was 8 and we had just started unschooling/deschooling, he was really pushing for unlimited access to media, which we were still struggling with, but since our start with unschooling came because of serious, destructive power struggles, we felt pushed to lift limits faster than was probably wise. With me very busy with an active baby/toddler and working hard to apply the principles of unschooling without really having the relationship and trust established, and T still in a pretty negative head space, he found his way onto some porn sites and basically visited them every time we were out of the room for several months. We found out by accident when Khan was doing some computer stuff and looked at the history. He was unfortunately exposed to some pretty nasty stuff and not just once or by accident. At the time he was really exploring the limits and would be on the computer for marathon 6 to 8 hour sessions with very little break, staying up into the early morning watching anime and movies and also frequently visiting these sites, as we discovered. With a small babe taking a lot of time and energy and needing to be on the move a lot with her as well as occasionally sleep, we missed a lot of what was going on for him at the time.
The solutions were however not done as any kind of punishment, but with full involvement and agreement from T. He said (and when I checked in with him today, still says) that he felt out of control, very uncomfortable but also very attracted to what he was seeing and was happy to not have the choice to visit those sites anymore at the time. We did give him the choice of whether or not to block them or come up with some other solution. We also moved his computer and later his whole room into the main area of the house rather than downstairs, which while public, had been quite isolated for him. We spent much more time with him watching his anime, playing his games and building the relationship and we said yes for as long as he wanted any time he wanted to watch something blocked, which has never been anything we'd worry about since that time. The only control we put on was for sexually explicit content and even then we will happily figure out a solution if there is something he wants to see that might fall under that category, like Austin Powers which he loved. Really, having worked in sexual health education, I know kids, especially preteens and teens, are going to find stuff, whether it is a friend's dad's stash or somebody's big brother's videos or whatever. If he wanted to watch explicit sexual content now, I would find a way to safely support that interest, although I'd obviously encourage other sources than graphic internet porn. And at this point (he is 11 now and we have been unschooling for 3 years) I feel pretty good about the relationship and about his own sense of himself, which at the time was pretty compromised, as Meredith suggests.
I know why you would make the points you did Joyce and I think they are totally valid and important, especially for people new to the list and to unschooling in general. Having been on the list for 3 years and seeing the kind of comments and responses people get on other lists, I know it is what needs to be said. What Khan wrote, taken out of context, doesn't fit with the view of unschooling that this list is meant to focus on. At the same time, in this situation, in this context, we felt safety really was in question and we did our best to work with T to help him feel safe, loved and also trusted as much as we could at the time. Over the last few years I have grown to really trust my kids, much more than I did back then, but I still don't entirely trust the internet, especially with a child who is really impulsive and has a history of feeling like he needs (and still has a need to with his bio dad) to sneak, lie and generally not trust adults to be on his side and also had some pretty big empty places he was trying to fill. Now that he is much more full, it is a different picture, although he will likely never have he full experience that always unschooled kids with both parents on board have.
I actually find it quite amusing that what Khan wrote would make it look like we control and limit our kids exposure to media, which couldn't be further from the truth. I have come so far in my parenting journey with that, from a totally TV free early childlhood, waldorf school and tight parental control on media of all sorts, to having fun watching Buffy with T or watching him play minecraft or chat with xbox live friends all over the world while A plays games on her ipod with her dad or watches favorite shows on netflix on one of many TV's, computers and idevices in our home. Khan is actually the media guy in the family and I have him to thank for all the awesome geekery we have like a networked media server that can play movies from one hardrive onto any computer in the house. He does still have a lot of hang-ups about it, but he keeps them to himself for the most part. It was probably good for him to hear it from someone else but me.
Anyway, maybe the clarification here will shed some light for anyone considering shifting from limits on media and internet. It has certainly been a journey in our lives and will continue to evolve as kids get older and needs and interests change, but I can say for sure that I wouldn't go back to the way it was before, even though we have dealt with some pretty intense stuff because of it.
~ Tammy
Joyce Fetteroll
On Sep 22, 2011, at 12:18 AM, meadowgirl11 wrote:
But so many people have mental roadblocks in the way like "I need to
limit the internet. It's dangerous. The internet/porn's addictive."
And when those fears are ripped open and their foundations examined
and truths searched for, the message they unfortunately come away with
is often "No limits." :-/
When the real message is "Make the world accessible and then help your
kids find what they like and avoid what they don't like. Support their
on going building, tearing apart, rebuilding, expanding ideas about
what's right and wrong for them, what's important to them, and how the
world works. Support them with your interest in them and their
interests, your time and energy, your greater knowledge about the
world and where they might want to look, your greater power at
manipulating the world."
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> we did our best to work with T to help him feel safe, loved and alsoWhich is pretty much the message we try to get across :-)
> trusted
But so many people have mental roadblocks in the way like "I need to
limit the internet. It's dangerous. The internet/porn's addictive."
And when those fears are ripped open and their foundations examined
and truths searched for, the message they unfortunately come away with
is often "No limits." :-/
When the real message is "Make the world accessible and then help your
kids find what they like and avoid what they don't like. Support their
on going building, tearing apart, rebuilding, expanding ideas about
what's right and wrong for them, what's important to them, and how the
world works. Support them with your interest in them and their
interests, your time and energy, your greater knowledge about the
world and where they might want to look, your greater power at
manipulating the world."
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Meredith
"meadowgirl11" <tamithameadow@...> wrote:
That's a good example of how building trust in a relationship can lead to kids and parents working together to solve a problem. In hindsight, mistakes were made on both sides, but instead of leading to punishments and bad feelings all around, y'all came together and worked things out.
Unschooling doesn't automatically create picture perfect kids who never make bad decisions! It Does set things up so their mistakes really can be learning opportunities for the whole family, rather than just things everyone wishes they could forget.
---Meredith
>> The solutions were however not done as any kind of punishment, but with full involvement and agreement from T. He said (and when I checked in with him today, still says) that he felt out of control, very uncomfortable but also very attracted to what he was seeing and was happy to not have the choice to visit those sites anymore at the time.********************
That's a good example of how building trust in a relationship can lead to kids and parents working together to solve a problem. In hindsight, mistakes were made on both sides, but instead of leading to punishments and bad feelings all around, y'all came together and worked things out.
Unschooling doesn't automatically create picture perfect kids who never make bad decisions! It Does set things up so their mistakes really can be learning opportunities for the whole family, rather than just things everyone wishes they could forget.
---Meredith