Kristie

Hello everyone,

I am new to unschooling - today is day 4. :) Literally. But I am absolutely
loving it!!! A couple years ago, we 'tried' unschooling, but I did not have the
information and support I needed to continue and eventually caved to the "my
kids need to be doing something" mentality, plus all my irrational fears of them
growing up to be undisciplined and uneducated (don't laugh). Now, after a year
and a half of torture, I feel like I've been set free from prison!!!

Unschooling is definitely my natural bend. It has been truly painful trying to
force my kids into doing workbooks, reading what's 'good' for them, and limiting
their electronics. Did I mention torture?

So, here I am...hoping to set myself, and my kids, up for success this time! I
do have a question I wanted to ask: My kids, particularly my older two (boys,
13 and 10) can be quite rude to each other. There seems to be a lot of
competition between them and comparison. How can I help them want to treat each
other better? The younger ones are starting to copy this behavior (name calling
and disrespect) and I really don't want that to happen.

Thanks for being here!
Kristie

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joyce Fetteroll

On Sep 15, 2011, at 9:06 AM, Kristie wrote:

> My kids, particularly my older two (boys,
> 13 and 10) can be quite rude to each other. There seems to be a lot of
> competition between them and comparison.

Have you read Siblings Without Rivalry? There may be things you're
doing or not doing that's setting them up to feel they need to compete
to get their needs met.

Boys in particular, though, can be competitive! Competition shouldn't
be seen as a bad thing. And what's competition if there isn't the
ability to compare against something or someone?

Can you give some examples?

The first, best thing a mom can do is be more present. It's easy to
read that and either say "I am" -- but the kids are showing that
you're idea of enough isn't enough for them. Or to say "I
can't" (because of other things going on). It's better for problem
solving to see this as a must and adjust your life, come up with
creative ways, ask here for input on creative ideas.

It won't solve everything but if you can be there and notice the build
up and redirect the situation, you can cut way down on them.

Rather than fixating on changing them -- which you can't! -- focus on
changing the environment around them. Focus on you being different.
Step back and look at what lead up to something hurtful. Find ways to
redirect *before* it breaks down.

Sandra Dodd has some good pages on sibling relationships:

http://sandradodd.com/peace/fighting

There are links there that lead to more.

> How can I help them want to treat each
> other better?

You can't. You can only change you.

Do stop them if they're hurting someone or damaging something. But
don't focus on the choice. They aren't deliberately choosing the "bad"
choice. They're making choices they understand, that seem a good match
in the (emotional) moment.

They need help with better ways. They need to see lots and lots of
better ways before they can actually do those better ways themselves.
Because the better ways are complex! (Many adults haven't figured out
how to negotiate with someone else.) They will intellectually
understand better ways long before they can figure out how to put them
into practice in the heat of the moment, in

> The younger ones are starting to copy this behavior (name calling
> and disrespect) and I really don't want that to happen.

See behavior as communication. Why do they need to call each other
names? Why do they need to be disrespectful? What *need* are they
trying to meet in these anti-social ways?

If people have all their needs met, they don't need to fight. We don't
have control over all of kids' needs. But we can make them more
comfortable while they work through something. We can control the
environment. *Be* the peaceful insert into the environment. You can't
make them feel peace. But you can be peaceful.

Hopefully people will be along with practical applications of that!
But that's the mindset you want to be working towards.

Joyce





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Kristie

Thanks, Joyce. I just reserved that book at the library.

Some examples:

Who is farther on a video game and who did or didn't use cheats to get there.

Who is 'laziest' because they didn't do their chores or do them right. (We just
dropped formal chores, so maybe this will help. I can really see how I set us
up for this. My 10 yo is very unmotivated to help and therefore "lazy." I hope
I can undo that damage.)

Who can run faster, climb higher, ride a bike better...

The 13 yo is always very quick to criticize the 10 yo as being immature, lazy,
having weird ideas, etc. My 10 yo is very sensitive and I can see that this
hurts him and just furthers his self-defeating behavior. He has built a shell
for himself. Many times he just doesn't even try.

I am trying to be more present and aware of what is going on. I admit that I
have been "too busy" with school, housework, computer, etc...to be very present
for them. I have also been so stressed out that I just gave up. They have
often been on their own to work out their differences - or not. (I feel like
crap admitting this - but I am being honest)

>>See behavior as communication. Why do they need to call each other
>>names? Why do they need to be disrespectful? What *need* are they
>>trying to meet in these anti-social ways?

Well, I just had a real life example. They were fighting over a toy. My 3 yo
calls my 5 yo a name. Whenever they are frustrated with a situation (like a toy
not working right) or with each other, they automatically go to anger and
name-calling. It's very "eat or be eaten" if you know what I mean.

I just hate it that they don't have any consideration and respect for each
other. No, I haven't been a good example of this at all, I have been absent,
but I am determined to change myself and be there for them from now on. I have
been treating them completely different the last four days, and have already
seen improvements...

I appreciate any further input!!!
Kristie







________________________________
From: Joyce Fetteroll <jfetteroll@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Thu, September 15, 2011 9:28:34 AM
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] new to the group and a ?



On Sep 15, 2011, at 9:06 AM, Kristie wrote:

> My kids, particularly my older two (boys,
> 13 and 10) can be quite rude to each other. There seems to be a lot of
> competition between them and comparison.

Have you read Siblings Without Rivalry? There may be things you're
doing or not doing that's setting them up to feel they need to compete
to get their needs met.

Boys in particular, though, can be competitive! Competition shouldn't
be seen as a bad thing. And what's competition if there isn't the
ability to compare against something or someone?

Can you give some examples?

The first, best thing a mom can do is be more present. It's easy to
read that and either say "I am" -- but the kids are showing that
you're idea of enough isn't enough for them. Or to say "I
can't" (because of other things going on). It's better for problem
solving to see this as a must and adjust your life, come up with
creative ways, ask here for input on creative ideas.

It won't solve everything but if you can be there and notice the build
up and redirect the situation, you can cut way down on them.

Rather than fixating on changing them -- which you can't! -- focus on
changing the environment around them. Focus on you being different.
Step back and look at what lead up to something hurtful. Find ways to
redirect *before* it breaks down.

Sandra Dodd has some good pages on sibling relationships:

http://sandradodd.com/peace/fighting

There are links there that lead to more.

> How can I help them want to treat each
> other better?

You can't. You can only change you.

Do stop them if they're hurting someone or damaging something. But
don't focus on the choice. They aren't deliberately choosing the "bad"
choice. They're making choices they understand, that seem a good match
in the (emotional) moment.

They need help with better ways. They need to see lots and lots of
better ways before they can actually do those better ways themselves.
Because the better ways are complex! (Many adults haven't figured out
how to negotiate with someone else.) They will intellectually
understand better ways long before they can figure out how to put them
into practice in the heat of the moment, in

> The younger ones are starting to copy this behavior (name calling
> and disrespect) and I really don't want that to happen.

See behavior as communication. Why do they need to call each other
names? Why do they need to be disrespectful? What *need* are they
trying to meet in these anti-social ways?

If people have all their needs met, they don't need to fight. We don't
have control over all of kids' needs. But we can make them more
comfortable while they work through something. We can control the
environment. *Be* the peaceful insert into the environment. You can't
make them feel peace. But you can be peaceful.

Hopefully people will be along with practical applications of that!
But that's the mindset you want to be working towards.

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

lylaw

4 days is a very short amount of time to see changes, or the impact/reflection of *your* changes.
here’s a short, simple article on helping siblings resolve conflicts, that might help:
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/peacemeal/201010/3-steps-transform-sibling-conflict-sibling-camaraderie?page=1
it won’t stop the name calling and power struggling right away, or magically, but it might provide you with some simple tools, and help them develop those tools as well.
mainly though, give it time, with the backing off on chores and schoolwork, and them being treated more harshly, etc, it’s going to take time for them to decompress from what was their reality to what is – and to transform their treatment of each other to reflect the new paradigm.
lyla

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

plaidpanties666

Kristie <messy_boys@...> wrote:
> My kids, particularly my older two (boys,
> 13 and 10) can be quite rude to each other. There seems to be a lot of
> competition between them and comparison.

A certain amount of that is normal, especially with boys. But it is also aggravated by the way schools set everything up to be competitive. If you're working on the making the home environment supportive, that will help! In that regard, keep in mind that "fair" doesn't mean "equal" - if someone has bigger needs, then it's better to give that person more support in the moment rather than trying to balance things out. That actually creates situations where people tend to be more supportive overall.

---Meredith

plaidpanties666

Kristie <messy_boys@...> wrote:
> I have
> been treating them completely different the last four days, and have already
> seen improvements...

Focus on this - on what's getting better rather than what you Wish were better. Four days is no time at all!

Learning to see your kids in a positive light is one of the new skills you'll be developing as an unschooling parent. It's an important one! As you see the positive in your kids, they'll start to notice and pick up on it. It's the sort of the attitude that spreads - but not if you try to push it. You can't teach them to see each other in a positive light, but you can show they you see each one of them in a good way, which will help them feel good - and as a result they'll have less reason to pick and criticize. They won't Need to build up their own sense of self by cutting each other down. There will still be some competition, most likely - as I said, some of that is natural - but it will become more friendly competition over time as they all start to feel like they're "on the same side".

> The 13 yo is always very quick to criticize the 10 yo as being immature, lazy,
***************

Have you apologized for your own past behavior and expectations? That could help. It may also help to be candid about some of your own flaws - not as a "lesson" in being a better person, but as a way to connect with your kids. The sharp division between parents and kids as teacher and taught sets family members up to dehumanize one another - look at the way most people talk about children and especially teens - as if they're another species! So part of your work for awhile will be learning to see a group of people with different needs and skills living together where there have been opposing camps of Parents and Kids.

> having weird ideas, etc.

Do you see "weird ideas" as a positive thing? If not, work on that! It might help to read or watch some movies about people who have been out of step with the norm to shift your perspective. Again, not as a kind of lesson, but a way to change your own thinking.

That being said, some families prize "weird" above "normal" and it could be helpful to think about people who are "normal" as being just as valuable as people who stand out. Again, its a matter of seeing people as people rather than icons - seeing the world in terms of "freaks" and "muggles" doesn't help kids get along in a family full of different personalities.

>My 10 yo is very sensitive and I can see that this
> hurts him and just furthers his self-defeating behavior. He has built a shell
> for himself. Many times he just doesn't even try.

Doesn't even try what? If his goals and interests are very different from other family members, that could be part of the problem. It's not that "he doesn't try" but that what he values is so different y'all don't see him doing what he cares about, only not-doing those things he doesn't see as important. If he's not cleaning the bathroom because he's too busy pondering the wonders of the universe, that could seem like not-trying... or it could seem like a person who is so deeply concerned with larger issues as to not mind the small stuff. There are whole religious practices built around a set of values of that nature ;)

> Well, I just had a real life example. They were fighting over a toy. My 3 yo
> calls my 5 yo a name. Whenever they are frustrated with a situation (like a toy
> not working right) or with each other, they automatically go to anger and
> name-calling. It's very "eat or be eaten" if you know what I mean.

It also helps to keep in mind that 3 and 5yos are not 10 and 13 year olds! It's perfectly natural for a young child, with few skills as yet, to try whatever tool comes to hand. It's perfectly normal for 5yos to call people names, for that matter, even in warm fuzzy unschooling homes. Try to get involved sooner so you can diffuse the conflict Before it gets to the name-calling, but also see levels of skillfulness. Calling a name is a much better choice than hitting, for instance. That doesn't make it the Best Of All Choices, but often in moments of stress its hard to find the Best Of All Choices. That's true of adults, too! If you or your kids can see a choice and are going for the better option - kinder, more peaceful, more supportive - that's a good thing. More than that comes with practice.

> I just hate it that they don't...

Practice even in the words you use, even the words you say to yourself. Don't hate, not even rhetorically. Hating anything about your kids won't help anything. See them as people who need your help. You can't help them if you're hating. It sounds like a little, nit-picky thing, but changing the way you talk to yourself will slowly change the way you see your kids - so think positive! They're people trying to get their needs met. How can you help? You don't have to know the answer yet! You're learning too, after all.

---Meredith