New to Unschooling.... What is an Evaluator??
Cindi
Hi all!!! I live in New Jersey....here, a homeschooler does not have to "report" anything, I mean like you do not even have to let the school district know that you are home schooling if you don't want to. I was reading a post about needing an evaluator and was wondering if someone could explain to me what that is? Is this something I need or just certain States.... this is my second year of unschooling with a "possible" move to South Carolina coming up, I am getting a little nervous, because out there you do have to report....as well as join a homeschool committee (I believe that is what it is called). I see all the kids going to school... I feel like I'm failing in "un" schooling...so much so that I have signed him up for Time4Learning LOL....although he has not started it yet....I love to just let him go, be joyful in life, do what he wants....help him, when needed, if needed....but then that "little voice" comes in and says "CURRICULUM" !!!! or "HE CAN'T POSSIBLY BE LEARNING BY DOING NOTHING" LOL....I laugh but it really is a struggle...I let him play Minecraft, World of Warcraft, we both play! His spelling has improved at least a grade level by playing World of Warcraft, and his typing has so much improved, we do cursive in the sand, and do what we want....is this unschooling??? I don't know, but that's what we like :)
Kelly Lovejoy
Cindi,
In SC, you have to join an accountability association if you choose the least invasive Option 3. I run one in SC, so I'd be happy to show you the ropes if you do move here.
You don't actually "report" here to anyone. Just follow the statutes.
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
"There is no single effort more radical in its potential for saving the world than a transformation of the way we raise our children." Marianne Williamson
-----Original Message-----
From: Cindi <jerseerose@...>
Hi all!!! I live in New Jersey....here, a homeschooler does not have to
"report" anything, I mean like you do not even have to let the school district
know that you are home schooling if you don't want to. I was reading a post
about needing an evaluator and was wondering if someone could explain to me what
that is? Is this something I need or just certain States.... this is my second
year of unschooling with a "possible" move to South Carolina coming up, I am
getting a little nervous, because out there you do have to report....as well as
join a homeschool committee (I believe that is what it is called). I see all
the kids going to school... I feel like I'm failing in "un" schooling...so much
so that I have signed him up for Time4Learning LOL....although he has not
started it yet....I love to just let him go, be joyful in life, do what he
wants....help him, when needed, if needed....but then that "little voice" comes
in and says "CURRICULUM" !!!! or "HE CAN'T POSSIBLY BE
LEARNING BY DOING NOTHING" LOL....I laugh but it really is a struggle...I let
him play Minecraft, World of Warcraft, we both play! His spelling has improved
at least a grade level by playing World of Warcraft, and his typing has so much
improved, we do cursive in the sand, and do what we want....is this
unschooling??? I don't know, but that's what we like :)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
In SC, you have to join an accountability association if you choose the least invasive Option 3. I run one in SC, so I'd be happy to show you the ropes if you do move here.
You don't actually "report" here to anyone. Just follow the statutes.
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
"There is no single effort more radical in its potential for saving the world than a transformation of the way we raise our children." Marianne Williamson
-----Original Message-----
From: Cindi <jerseerose@...>
Hi all!!! I live in New Jersey....here, a homeschooler does not have to
"report" anything, I mean like you do not even have to let the school district
know that you are home schooling if you don't want to. I was reading a post
about needing an evaluator and was wondering if someone could explain to me what
that is? Is this something I need or just certain States.... this is my second
year of unschooling with a "possible" move to South Carolina coming up, I am
getting a little nervous, because out there you do have to report....as well as
join a homeschool committee (I believe that is what it is called). I see all
the kids going to school... I feel like I'm failing in "un" schooling...so much
so that I have signed him up for Time4Learning LOL....although he has not
started it yet....I love to just let him go, be joyful in life, do what he
wants....help him, when needed, if needed....but then that "little voice" comes
in and says "CURRICULUM" !!!! or "HE CAN'T POSSIBLY BE
LEARNING BY DOING NOTHING" LOL....I laugh but it really is a struggle...I let
him play Minecraft, World of Warcraft, we both play! His spelling has improved
at least a grade level by playing World of Warcraft, and his typing has so much
improved, we do cursive in the sand, and do what we want....is this
unschooling??? I don't know, but that's what we like :)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
"Cindi" <jerseerose@...> wrote:
Yes - which is why there wasn't much feedback on this list. It's not relevant to a whole lot of the membership and whenever possible we try to steer questions with only local relevance to local lists.
As you are researching the laws there, don't just check official state sites but sites set up by and for local homeschoolers. In some places you get around many of the homeschool laws by joining an "umbrella school" which is essentially a private school - and therefore not regulated the same ways as public or home schools And as such not listed under "state home school legislation" on official state sites. Generally speaking, so long as you live somewhere homeschooling is legal (and in the US it is in all states) there are ways to manage local legislation without disrupting your unschooling life. It may be a matter of finding someone who is "unschooling friendly" to review a portfolio or it may be a matter of having kids take a standardized test once a year (some places require a test by have No requirements regarding the results so you can "file and forget").
It's normal to have those kinds of worries, especially at first. Part of the problem is that school makes learning seem like sooooo much work! and yet the very processes schools use are massively time and labor wasting. How much do you Really remember from your dozen years of educations? Most people recall very very little they learned in school - isn't that a common complaint of teachers? ;) And the experiences of unschoolers who choose to try high school or go to college bear that out - it takes embarrassingly (for schools) little time to "catch up" on more than a decade of "education". I'm talking weeks to months!
My stepson went through the mill with home school and then public school and finally unschooling. When he first heard of "Learn Nothing Day" (a tongue-in-cheek unschooling "holiday") he commented that the Only way to learn nothing for a whole day was to go to school!
It might help you to learn more about learning - real learning rather than schoolish learning. Unschooling rarely looks like schoolish learning. Follow up some of the links here to get some ideas:
http://sandradodd.com/connections/
If you like books, Frank Smith's The Book of Learning and Forgetting is a good one, too.
There's a nice list here of those principles which help learning to flow:
http://sandradodd.com/pam/principles
Keep doing what you like. Right now, you're seeing schoolish learning, but that's okay for the moment ;) Use those "gains" to reassure you he's learning other things, things you don't think to look for because school has left you with blinders around the idea of "learning". Generally its much harder and longer for parents to "deschool" than for kids - we have more years of school and schoolish thinking to get over than they do. Put that curriculum high on a shelf where it won't stare at you all day and spend that time living and playing and learning effortlessly all day long.
---Meredith
>I was reading a post about needing an evaluator and was wondering if someone could explain to me what that is? Is this something I need or just certain States....*****************
Yes - which is why there wasn't much feedback on this list. It's not relevant to a whole lot of the membership and whenever possible we try to steer questions with only local relevance to local lists.
>> this is my second year of unschooling with a "possible" move to South Carolina coming up, I am getting a little nervous, because out there you do have to report....as well as join a homeschool committee*****************
As you are researching the laws there, don't just check official state sites but sites set up by and for local homeschoolers. In some places you get around many of the homeschool laws by joining an "umbrella school" which is essentially a private school - and therefore not regulated the same ways as public or home schools And as such not listed under "state home school legislation" on official state sites. Generally speaking, so long as you live somewhere homeschooling is legal (and in the US it is in all states) there are ways to manage local legislation without disrupting your unschooling life. It may be a matter of finding someone who is "unschooling friendly" to review a portfolio or it may be a matter of having kids take a standardized test once a year (some places require a test by have No requirements regarding the results so you can "file and forget").
>>I love to just let him go, be joyful in life, do what he wants....help him, when needed, if needed....but then that "little voice" comes in and says "CURRICULUM" !!!! or "HE CAN'T POSSIBLY BE LEARNING BY DOING NOTHING"****************
It's normal to have those kinds of worries, especially at first. Part of the problem is that school makes learning seem like sooooo much work! and yet the very processes schools use are massively time and labor wasting. How much do you Really remember from your dozen years of educations? Most people recall very very little they learned in school - isn't that a common complaint of teachers? ;) And the experiences of unschoolers who choose to try high school or go to college bear that out - it takes embarrassingly (for schools) little time to "catch up" on more than a decade of "education". I'm talking weeks to months!
My stepson went through the mill with home school and then public school and finally unschooling. When he first heard of "Learn Nothing Day" (a tongue-in-cheek unschooling "holiday") he commented that the Only way to learn nothing for a whole day was to go to school!
It might help you to learn more about learning - real learning rather than schoolish learning. Unschooling rarely looks like schoolish learning. Follow up some of the links here to get some ideas:
http://sandradodd.com/connections/
If you like books, Frank Smith's The Book of Learning and Forgetting is a good one, too.
There's a nice list here of those principles which help learning to flow:
http://sandradodd.com/pam/principles
>>His spelling has improved at least a grade level by playing World of Warcraft, and his typing has so much improved, we do cursive in the sand, and do what we want....is this unschooling??? I don't know, but that's what we like :)******************
Keep doing what you like. Right now, you're seeing schoolish learning, but that's okay for the moment ;) Use those "gains" to reassure you he's learning other things, things you don't think to look for because school has left you with blinders around the idea of "learning". Generally its much harder and longer for parents to "deschool" than for kids - we have more years of school and schoolish thinking to get over than they do. Put that curriculum high on a shelf where it won't stare at you all day and spend that time living and playing and learning effortlessly all day long.
---Meredith
Jill Finkenbine
Again, if you feel like you are failing at unschooling, read "A Thomas
Jefferson Education" by Oliver and Rachel DeMille. They give information
that will help you unschool with complete confidence.
Jill
Jefferson Education" by Oliver and Rachel DeMille. They give information
that will help you unschool with complete confidence.
Jill
On Thu, Sep 8, 2011 at 1:46 PM, Cindi <jerseerose@...> wrote:
> **
>
>
> Hi all!!! I live in New Jersey....here, a homeschooler does not have to
> "report" anything, I mean like you do not even have to let the school
> district know that you are home schooling if you don't want to. I was
> reading a post about needing an evaluator and was wondering if someone could
> explain to me what that is? Is this something I need or just certain
> States.... this is my second year of unschooling with a "possible" move to
> South Carolina coming up, I am getting a little nervous, because out there
> you do have to report....as well as join a homeschool committee (I believe
> that is what it is called). I see all the kids going to school... I feel
> like I'm failing in "un" schooling...so much so that I have signed him up
> for Time4Learning LOL....although he has not started it yet....I love to
> just let him go, be joyful in life, do what he wants....help him, when
> needed, if needed....but then that "little voice" comes in and says
> "CURRICULUM" !!!! or "HE CAN'T POSSIBLY BE LEARNING BY DOING NOTHING"
> LOL....I laugh but it really is a struggle...I let him play Minecraft, World
> of Warcraft, we both play! His spelling has improved at least a grade level
> by playing World of Warcraft, and his typing has so much improved, we do
> cursive in the sand, and do what we want....is this unschooling??? I don't
> know, but that's what we like :)
>
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jenni Feingold
I have to say our years in SC with Kelly's SOS was blissful. I miss it and all the wonderful unschoolers there are in the low country. While we found some in Baltimore we have yet to meet with other homeschoolers never mind unschoolers here in Miami. If you are headed the way of the greater charleston area there are SOOOOO many lovely families to meet up with.
jenni mama to Brenna (18) Lexi (12) Jack (7) Rory (5) & Finn (2) and stepmama to Aidan (12)
Lana Bella handcrafted soaps, artisanal teas, herbal salves, and bath teas, salts & scrubs
jenni mama to Brenna (18) Lexi (12) Jack (7) Rory (5) & Finn (2) and stepmama to Aidan (12)
Lana Bella handcrafted soaps, artisanal teas, herbal salves, and bath teas, salts & scrubs
BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
<<<<Again, if you feel like you are failing at unschooling, read "A Thomas
Jefferson Education" by Oliver and Rachel DeMille. They give information
that will help you unschool with complete confidence.>>>>>
But that is NOT unschooling. would you go to a beef cow farm to learn about dairy?
Sure they both have cows and they have many things that can be the same but the differences between them are HUGE!
Not that reading about different educational methods are not good but unschooling is not just another method.
It is so totally different than any other homeschooling or teaching method.
Can you tell us what you think about TJEd that will give someone unschooling complete confidence?
I just cannot see it.
Alex Polikowsky
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jefferson Education" by Oliver and Rachel DeMille. They give information
that will help you unschool with complete confidence.>>>>>
But that is NOT unschooling. would you go to a beef cow farm to learn about dairy?
Sure they both have cows and they have many things that can be the same but the differences between them are HUGE!
Not that reading about different educational methods are not good but unschooling is not just another method.
It is so totally different than any other homeschooling or teaching method.
Can you tell us what you think about TJEd that will give someone unschooling complete confidence?
I just cannot see it.
Alex Polikowsky
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
plaidpanties666
Jill Finkenbine <peace.goodwill@...> wrote:
From Wikipedia:
the "Seven Keys of Great Teaching" are Classics, not Textbooks; Mentors, not Professors; Inspire, not Require; Structure Time, not Content; Quality, not Conformity; Simplicity, not Complexity; and You, not Them
That's a pretty definite educational agenda, there, and one that doesn't apply to whole life unschoolers at all. If you're interested in unschooling, I'd stay away from reading about educational methods until you've had a chance to fully deschool. For reporting purposes, something like that is more likely to stress out a new parent and get them doing something foolish like trying to read Tom Sawyer to a child who would rather play Minecraft and jump on the trampoline.
---Meredith
>Reading over the description, it seems they will help you have a low key, minimally structured eclectic approach to home education, which isn't the same as unschooling.
> Again, if you feel like you are failing at unschooling, read "A Thomas
> Jefferson Education" by Oliver and Rachel DeMille. They give information
> that will help you unschool with complete confidence.
From Wikipedia:
the "Seven Keys of Great Teaching" are Classics, not Textbooks; Mentors, not Professors; Inspire, not Require; Structure Time, not Content; Quality, not Conformity; Simplicity, not Complexity; and You, not Them
That's a pretty definite educational agenda, there, and one that doesn't apply to whole life unschoolers at all. If you're interested in unschooling, I'd stay away from reading about educational methods until you've had a chance to fully deschool. For reporting purposes, something like that is more likely to stress out a new parent and get them doing something foolish like trying to read Tom Sawyer to a child who would rather play Minecraft and jump on the trampoline.
---Meredith
Jill Finkenbine
The classics TJED lists are great reads. They can be shared with the
children - sharing great, entertaining, enjoyable books certainly doesn't
violate the process of unschooling. These classics are inspiring and an
education in and of themselves, so one never has to wonder whether the child
is learning 'enough.'
Jill
On Thu, Sep 8, 2011 at 5:11 PM, BRIAN POLIKOWSKY <polykowholsteins@...
children - sharing great, entertaining, enjoyable books certainly doesn't
violate the process of unschooling. These classics are inspiring and an
education in and of themselves, so one never has to wonder whether the child
is learning 'enough.'
Jill
On Thu, Sep 8, 2011 at 5:11 PM, BRIAN POLIKOWSKY <polykowholsteins@...
> wrote:[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> **
>
>
>
>
> <<<<Again, if you feel like you are failing at unschooling, read "A Thomas
> Jefferson Education" by Oliver and Rachel DeMille. They give information
> that will help you unschool with complete confidence.>>>>>
>
> But that is NOT unschooling. would you go to a beef cow farm to learn about
> dairy?
> Sure they both have cows and they have many things that can be the same but
> the differences between them are HUGE!
> Not that reading about different educational methods are not good but
> unschooling is not just another method.
> It is so totally different than any other homeschooling or teaching method.
>
> Can you tell us what you think about TJEd that will give someone
> unschooling complete confidence?
> I just cannot see it.
>
> Alex Polikowsky
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
I liked what Meredith said.
What if the child would rather play Minecraft? Or read Manga?
Do you then force the classics?
Do you not see that the child can be learning from playing those as much or more than the Classics.
I do not even know if I have ever read any of the classics on that list.
Those are classics in the US. This list is International. The classics in the country I grew up were not the same.
A parent needs to create a learning environment and be open to see learning everywhere and in everything the child does.
If someone only sees learning if a child is reading an American Literature Classic and not a Manga book than that parent needs a lot
more deschooling yet!
Alex Polikowsky
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
What if the child would rather play Minecraft? Or read Manga?
Do you then force the classics?
Do you not see that the child can be learning from playing those as much or more than the Classics.
I do not even know if I have ever read any of the classics on that list.
Those are classics in the US. This list is International. The classics in the country I grew up were not the same.
A parent needs to create a learning environment and be open to see learning everywhere and in everything the child does.
If someone only sees learning if a child is reading an American Literature Classic and not a Manga book than that parent needs a lot
more deschooling yet!
Alex Polikowsky
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Kelly Lovejoy
-----Original Message-----
From: BRIAN POLIKOWSKY <polykowholsteins@...>
If someone only sees learning if a child is reading an American Literature Classic and not a Manga book than that parent needs a lot
more deschooling yet!
-=-=-=-=-=-
For a brief second, I was looking for the "Like" button! <g>
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
"There is no single effort more radical in its potential for saving the world than a transformation of the way we raise our children." Marianne Williamson
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
From: BRIAN POLIKOWSKY <polykowholsteins@...>
If someone only sees learning if a child is reading an American Literature Classic and not a Manga book than that parent needs a lot
more deschooling yet!
-=-=-=-=-=-
For a brief second, I was looking for the "Like" button! <g>
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
"There is no single effort more radical in its potential for saving the world than a transformation of the way we raise our children." Marianne Williamson
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sylvia Woodman
Hi Cindi,
Where in NJ do you live? I live outside of Trenton. Are you connected with
other local unschoolers? There is a (somewhat) sleepy NJUnschoolers yahoo
list and there have been some conferences in the past (called Great Big
Happy Life) which has a page on Facebook. Also, have you been to any
conferences? It is hard to unschool in alone especially in the face of all
the Back To School frenzy in the media. There is a strong HS community
where I live and I always feel a bit like a slacker at this time of year
when there are So Many schoolish offerings presented. (Mad Science!
Chinese! Physics! Algebra!) But, this is my third back to school season and
I know to practice my own deep breathing and focus on how and what my
children are doing. How many 7 yr olds get to play as much as they wish,
eat when they are hungry and explore their emotions in a loving environment.
These are things that schools could never provide to her. In a couple of
weeks the back to school stories will fade away and once again I can forget
about school and just enjoy our full rich lives that are full of joy,
abundance, tons of learning.
Warmly,
Sylvia
Where in NJ do you live? I live outside of Trenton. Are you connected with
other local unschoolers? There is a (somewhat) sleepy NJUnschoolers yahoo
list and there have been some conferences in the past (called Great Big
Happy Life) which has a page on Facebook. Also, have you been to any
conferences? It is hard to unschool in alone especially in the face of all
the Back To School frenzy in the media. There is a strong HS community
where I live and I always feel a bit like a slacker at this time of year
when there are So Many schoolish offerings presented. (Mad Science!
Chinese! Physics! Algebra!) But, this is my third back to school season and
I know to practice my own deep breathing and focus on how and what my
children are doing. How many 7 yr olds get to play as much as they wish,
eat when they are hungry and explore their emotions in a loving environment.
These are things that schools could never provide to her. In a couple of
weeks the back to school stories will fade away and once again I can forget
about school and just enjoy our full rich lives that are full of joy,
abundance, tons of learning.
Warmly,
Sylvia
On Thu, Sep 8, 2011 at 1:46 PM, Cindi <jerseerose@...> wrote:
> **
>
>
> Hi all!!! I live in New Jersey....here, a homeschooler does not have to
> "report" anything, I mean like you do not even have to let the school
> district know that you are home schooling if you don't want to. I was
> reading a post about needing an evaluator and was wondering if someone could
> explain to me what that is? Is this something I need or just certain
> States.... this is my second year of unschooling with a "possible" move to
> South Carolina coming up, I am getting a little nervous, because out there
> you do have to report....as well as join a homeschool committee (I believe
> that is what it is called). I see all the kids going to school... I feel
> like I'm failing in "un" schooling...so much so that I have signed him up
> for Time4Learning LOL....although he has not started it yet....I love to
> just let him go, be joyful in life, do what he wants....help him, when
> needed, if needed....but then that "little voice" comes in and says
> "CURRICULUM" !!!! or "HE CAN'T POSSIBLY BE LEARNING BY DOING NOTHING"
> LOL....I laugh but it really is a struggle...I let him play Minecraft, World
> of Warcraft, we both play! His spelling has improved at least a grade level
> by playing World of Warcraft, and his typing has so much improved, we do
> cursive in the sand, and do what we want....is this unschooling??? I don't
> know, but that's what we like :)
>
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sylvia Woodman
I would be concerned that there is nothing modern on the lists. Books don't
have to be old to be of value.
Warmly,
Sylvia
have to be old to be of value.
Warmly,
Sylvia
On Thu, Sep 8, 2011 at 5:38 PM, Jill Finkenbine <peace.goodwill@...>wrote:
> The classics TJED lists are great reads. They can be shared with the
> children - sharing great, entertaining, enjoyable books certainly doesn't
> violate the process of unschooling. These classics are inspiring and an
> education in and of themselves, so one never has to wonder whether the
> child
> is learning 'enough.'
>
> Jill
>
> On Thu, Sep 8, 2011 at 5:11 PM, BRIAN POLIKOWSKY <
> polykowholsteins@...
> > wrote:
>
> > **
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > <<<<Again, if you feel like you are failing at unschooling, read "A
> Thomas
> > Jefferson Education" by Oliver and Rachel DeMille. They give information
> > that will help you unschool with complete confidence.>>>>>
> >
> > But that is NOT unschooling. would you go to a beef cow farm to learn
> about
> > dairy?
> > Sure they both have cows and they have many things that can be the same
> but
> > the differences between them are HUGE!
> > Not that reading about different educational methods are not good but
> > unschooling is not just another method.
> > It is so totally different than any other homeschooling or teaching
> method.
> >
> > Can you tell us what you think about TJEd that will give someone
> > unschooling complete confidence?
> > I just cannot see it.
> >
> > Alex Polikowsky
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
we_r_unners
In my state we have a few options to show yearly progress. The one that I choose is a portfolio evaluation. The evaluator is a certified teacher (can be any certified teacher anywhere, as long as the state they are certified in is part of the "compact" that allows teacher reciprocity). You bring (or mail) a portfolio that shows progress for the year to this teacher. And they write a short narrative that explains what they've been shown and end with a statement that says they see progress. It's pretty simple, but the evaluators are current or former school teachers. So it's tough to find an evaluator that will be able to make something from what we are able document. The are other options that include testing. That's it. I hope you are still free to raise your children as you like in your new state as you are now!
--- In [email protected], "Cindi" <jerseerose@...> wrote:
>
> Hi all!!! I live in New Jersey....here, a homeschooler does not have to "report" anything, I mean like you do not even have to let the school district know that you are home schooling if you don't want to. I was reading a post about needing an evaluator and was wondering if someone could explain to me what that is?
Joyce Fetteroll
On Sep 8, 2011, at 5:38 PM, Jill Finkenbine wrote:
The big focus of education is pouring "necessary" and "good for them"
stuff into kids. All the focus is outward but only seeing what
"experts" think is worth putting into the empty vessels.
For parents to do unschooling well they need to shift their vision to
their kids. What's important for unschooling is whatever the kids find
interesting, not anyone else's judgement of the quality.
good feeling my kids will like" but books that experts have judged as
"great, entertaining, enjoyable".
It's possible the "kids will like" set might include books from the
"expert judged" set. But what other sets the "kids will like" books
are in is totally, completely irrelevant to unschooling. What's
important is whether or not the kids will like them.
And, of course, the "kids will like" set shouldn't just be books! It
should have movies, tractor pulls, plays, water parks, baseball games,
history reenactments, farmer's markets, Barbies, video games,
cupcakes, cartoons ...
The point I'm trying make is for parents to see the world and pull
from it what you believe kids will like rather than seeing someone's
judgment of quality list and pulling what you believe kids will like
from that.
If they aren't inspiring to the child, even a billion people being
inspired doesn't make the books more important. If a child loves a
book that inspired no one but she loved,
No one can know what another person is getting from what they're
experiencing. The books may be packed with ideas that have sparked
deep thoughts and deep conversations but if someone is focusing on
some other part of the experience, they're getting something else from
the books.
And, as adults often realize as they read books to kids that they read
themselves as kids, you'll get something different from books
depending on your age and current interests.
Mom may feel better to have run a bunch of classics by her child. But
unschooling isn't about soothing the mom's fears of kids not learning
enough but feeding the child's interests. Unschooling isn't a "got
enough to check that off my list" approach to learning.
Joyce
> The classics TJED lists are great reads.But why is that relevant to unschooling?
The big focus of education is pouring "necessary" and "good for them"
stuff into kids. All the focus is outward but only seeing what
"experts" think is worth putting into the empty vessels.
For parents to do unschooling well they need to shift their vision to
their kids. What's important for unschooling is whatever the kids find
interesting, not anyone else's judgement of the quality.
> They can be shared with theActually it does because the thought isn't "sharing books I've got a
> children - sharing great, entertaining, enjoyable books certainly
> doesn't
> violate the process of unschooling.
good feeling my kids will like" but books that experts have judged as
"great, entertaining, enjoyable".
It's possible the "kids will like" set might include books from the
"expert judged" set. But what other sets the "kids will like" books
are in is totally, completely irrelevant to unschooling. What's
important is whether or not the kids will like them.
And, of course, the "kids will like" set shouldn't just be books! It
should have movies, tractor pulls, plays, water parks, baseball games,
history reenactments, farmer's markets, Barbies, video games,
cupcakes, cartoons ...
The point I'm trying make is for parents to see the world and pull
from it what you believe kids will like rather than seeing someone's
judgment of quality list and pulling what you believe kids will like
from that.
> These classics are inspiring and anHuge quibble.
> education in and of themselves, so one never has to wonder whether
> the child
> is learning 'enough.'
If they aren't inspiring to the child, even a billion people being
inspired doesn't make the books more important. If a child loves a
book that inspired no one but she loved,
No one can know what another person is getting from what they're
experiencing. The books may be packed with ideas that have sparked
deep thoughts and deep conversations but if someone is focusing on
some other part of the experience, they're getting something else from
the books.
And, as adults often realize as they read books to kids that they read
themselves as kids, you'll get something different from books
depending on your age and current interests.
Mom may feel better to have run a bunch of classics by her child. But
unschooling isn't about soothing the mom's fears of kids not learning
enough but feeding the child's interests. Unschooling isn't a "got
enough to check that off my list" approach to learning.
Joyce
Schuyler
Often what seems like something that could only enhance a life if you inserted
it becomes a huge point of contention, a point at which the other person fails
to attend to such a simple thing as inserting this life enhancing thing. Or a
point where the person working to mould the life of another fails to see how
valuable and engaged that life already is.
My mom loved books that she would offer to me as a child that bored me. They
were probably classics in the Thomas Jefferson Education view of the world, but
they didn't hold a candle to the books that I wanted to read, or the television
that I wanted to watch, or the monkey bars that I wanted to climb. She never
pressed me to read the books. She would look for others that might appeal and
offer those. But if she had, if she had pushed her childhood joys on my
uninterested child self what would either of us have gained?
There is little harm to be had in offering something, unless, of course, your
offers have already been shown to be demands instead of offers. If an offer or a
suggestion is really a required reading event, or whatever, than it is an
argument that without whatever it is that person isn't good enough as they
stand.
I offer books to Simon and Linnaea fairly regularly. Simon likes books on his
ipod. He really likes Orson Scott Card books and I got a Science Fiction review
book so that I could look for other, similar authors. Linnaea and I went to a
bookstore recently looking for authors similar to H.P. Lovecraft. The owner was
very helpful and took us around to lots of different books in search of overlap.
Both of those occasions were brought about by Simon's or Linnaea's own desires
and my need/want/desire to accomodate them and their interests. I want to help
to further their exploration of the world as they are interested in it. I am not
looking to other people's image of what a good education is when I am buying
Edgar Allen Poe books for Linnaea or buying Dune for Simon. I am looking to
Simon and Linnaea.
Looking to Simon and Linnaea has been going on for much of their lives. When
Simon liked Bear in the Big Blue House I got copies of episodes for him as we
couldn't afford cable at the time. When Linnaea liked Hannah Montana I offered
her Raven as a possible show she might enjoy. When they liked zip swings I got a
pass to a local museum with a playpark so that we could go play on the zip swing
whenever they wanted to. And I found more places with similar fun things to play
on. The more I pay attention to what Simon or Linnaea are interested in, the
more I can find other things that might engage them as well. And, as a
corollary, the more that I can see the interest, the value, the joy, the
engagement in what they are already doing. I think that a system like Thomas
Jefferson Education argues that it is only through reading the classics as
defined by their board that a child, or an adult, will truly become a learned
person.
The webpage you mentioned has a section on math. It reads "Mathematics is an
integral part of a statesman’s education . . . . Math teaches a person to think
in a way that no other field does. As a person studies math, he learns to:
1. seek and recognize patterns
2. explore the relationship between things
3. see similarities and also distinctions
4. analyze logically but with a deep sense that there is a right answer and a
set ideal worth detecting
5. compare and contrast
6. see things in black and white
7. see infinite shades of grey and therefore avoid jumping to conclusions
8. seek evidence for conclusions and check opinion with first-hand research
9. put his own pen to paper before accepting what society tells him
10. seek for absolutes
11. remain open to surprising new information which makes past conclusions
limited though perhaps still accurate--------
I would argue that living an engaged and an enriched life do most of those
things without looking to a specific subject to frame them. I would also argue
that the stated end goal of being able to think like an Archimedes, a Newton or
an Einstein is not recognising that people are different. How frustrated would I
be thinking that if I read the list of books at the end of it I would be able to
think like Archimedes and Newton and Einstein? I'm guessing that each of them
could think rings around me, maybe within certain contexts as opposed to all of
life ;-). It seems like a sales pitch kind of argument: buy our system, read our
books and think like Archimedes or Newton or Einstein.
Simon's ability to seek and recognize a pattern has been honed not by reading
about math but by playing video games, and, by not reading early. Simon could
find the most relevant piece of any scene in a video game long before Linnaea or
I could. We were reading the text offered while he was reading the setting. And
that applies out to the rest of the world. He sees things when we are camping,
he sees things in relationships, he makes connections without ever having read
Plato or Euler or Descartes.
The list of what someone learns kind of fades off at the end. You see things in
black and white and shades of grey. You seek absolutes and recognise that
nothing is absolute necessarily.... I suppose those things aren't really
contradictions, but they read a bit like a list that someone is hoping will
spark with other people rather than a list of well thought out outcomes from a
rich education.
I don't think in outcomes. My life with Simon and Linnaea is not outcome based.
I could very quickly derive from their day to day experiences and explorations
and engagements a post hoc educational plan to present to whomever I needed to
present it to. Because I'm paying attention to who they are and what they do I
don't need to use someone else's approach to how to educate a child to make
Simon's or Linnaea's education look good enough.
If you want outcomes to aspire to, I quite like this one:
http://sandradodd.com/connections/cocktail.
Schuyler
________________________________
From: Jill Finkenbine <peace.goodwill@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Thursday, 8 September, 2011 22:38:59
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] New to Unschooling.... What is an Evaluator??
The classics TJED lists are great reads. They can be shared with the
children - sharing great, entertaining, enjoyable books certainly doesn't
violate the process of unschooling. These classics are inspiring and an
education in and of themselves, so one never has to wonder whether the child
is learning 'enough.'
Jill
On Thu, Sep 8, 2011 at 5:11 PM, BRIAN POLIKOWSKY <polykowholsteins@...
------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
it becomes a huge point of contention, a point at which the other person fails
to attend to such a simple thing as inserting this life enhancing thing. Or a
point where the person working to mould the life of another fails to see how
valuable and engaged that life already is.
My mom loved books that she would offer to me as a child that bored me. They
were probably classics in the Thomas Jefferson Education view of the world, but
they didn't hold a candle to the books that I wanted to read, or the television
that I wanted to watch, or the monkey bars that I wanted to climb. She never
pressed me to read the books. She would look for others that might appeal and
offer those. But if she had, if she had pushed her childhood joys on my
uninterested child self what would either of us have gained?
There is little harm to be had in offering something, unless, of course, your
offers have already been shown to be demands instead of offers. If an offer or a
suggestion is really a required reading event, or whatever, than it is an
argument that without whatever it is that person isn't good enough as they
stand.
I offer books to Simon and Linnaea fairly regularly. Simon likes books on his
ipod. He really likes Orson Scott Card books and I got a Science Fiction review
book so that I could look for other, similar authors. Linnaea and I went to a
bookstore recently looking for authors similar to H.P. Lovecraft. The owner was
very helpful and took us around to lots of different books in search of overlap.
Both of those occasions were brought about by Simon's or Linnaea's own desires
and my need/want/desire to accomodate them and their interests. I want to help
to further their exploration of the world as they are interested in it. I am not
looking to other people's image of what a good education is when I am buying
Edgar Allen Poe books for Linnaea or buying Dune for Simon. I am looking to
Simon and Linnaea.
Looking to Simon and Linnaea has been going on for much of their lives. When
Simon liked Bear in the Big Blue House I got copies of episodes for him as we
couldn't afford cable at the time. When Linnaea liked Hannah Montana I offered
her Raven as a possible show she might enjoy. When they liked zip swings I got a
pass to a local museum with a playpark so that we could go play on the zip swing
whenever they wanted to. And I found more places with similar fun things to play
on. The more I pay attention to what Simon or Linnaea are interested in, the
more I can find other things that might engage them as well. And, as a
corollary, the more that I can see the interest, the value, the joy, the
engagement in what they are already doing. I think that a system like Thomas
Jefferson Education argues that it is only through reading the classics as
defined by their board that a child, or an adult, will truly become a learned
person.
The webpage you mentioned has a section on math. It reads "Mathematics is an
integral part of a statesman’s education . . . . Math teaches a person to think
in a way that no other field does. As a person studies math, he learns to:
1. seek and recognize patterns
2. explore the relationship between things
3. see similarities and also distinctions
4. analyze logically but with a deep sense that there is a right answer and a
set ideal worth detecting
5. compare and contrast
6. see things in black and white
7. see infinite shades of grey and therefore avoid jumping to conclusions
8. seek evidence for conclusions and check opinion with first-hand research
9. put his own pen to paper before accepting what society tells him
10. seek for absolutes
11. remain open to surprising new information which makes past conclusions
limited though perhaps still accurate--------
I would argue that living an engaged and an enriched life do most of those
things without looking to a specific subject to frame them. I would also argue
that the stated end goal of being able to think like an Archimedes, a Newton or
an Einstein is not recognising that people are different. How frustrated would I
be thinking that if I read the list of books at the end of it I would be able to
think like Archimedes and Newton and Einstein? I'm guessing that each of them
could think rings around me, maybe within certain contexts as opposed to all of
life ;-). It seems like a sales pitch kind of argument: buy our system, read our
books and think like Archimedes or Newton or Einstein.
Simon's ability to seek and recognize a pattern has been honed not by reading
about math but by playing video games, and, by not reading early. Simon could
find the most relevant piece of any scene in a video game long before Linnaea or
I could. We were reading the text offered while he was reading the setting. And
that applies out to the rest of the world. He sees things when we are camping,
he sees things in relationships, he makes connections without ever having read
Plato or Euler or Descartes.
The list of what someone learns kind of fades off at the end. You see things in
black and white and shades of grey. You seek absolutes and recognise that
nothing is absolute necessarily.... I suppose those things aren't really
contradictions, but they read a bit like a list that someone is hoping will
spark with other people rather than a list of well thought out outcomes from a
rich education.
I don't think in outcomes. My life with Simon and Linnaea is not outcome based.
I could very quickly derive from their day to day experiences and explorations
and engagements a post hoc educational plan to present to whomever I needed to
present it to. Because I'm paying attention to who they are and what they do I
don't need to use someone else's approach to how to educate a child to make
Simon's or Linnaea's education look good enough.
If you want outcomes to aspire to, I quite like this one:
http://sandradodd.com/connections/cocktail.
Schuyler
________________________________
From: Jill Finkenbine <peace.goodwill@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Thursday, 8 September, 2011 22:38:59
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] New to Unschooling.... What is an Evaluator??
The classics TJED lists are great reads. They can be shared with the
children - sharing great, entertaining, enjoyable books certainly doesn't
violate the process of unschooling. These classics are inspiring and an
education in and of themselves, so one never has to wonder whether the child
is learning 'enough.'
Jill
On Thu, Sep 8, 2011 at 5:11 PM, BRIAN POLIKOWSKY <polykowholsteins@...
> wrote:[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> **
>
>
>
>
> <<<<Again, if you feel like you are failing at unschooling, read "A Thomas
> Jefferson Education" by Oliver and Rachel DeMille. They give information
> that will help you unschool with complete confidence.>>>>>
>
> But that is NOT unschooling. would you go to a beef cow farm to learn about
> dairy?
> Sure they both have cows and they have many things that can be the same but
> the differences between them are HUGE!
> Not that reading about different educational methods are not good but
> unschooling is not just another method.
> It is so totally different than any other homeschooling or teaching method.
>
> Can you tell us what you think about TJEd that will give someone
> unschooling complete confidence?
> I just cannot see it.
>
> Alex Polikowsky
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
plaidpanties666
Jill Finkenbine <peace.goodwill@...> wrote:
My daughter is much more interested in visual art than literature. She enjoys art museums and galleries and has a few favored artists - none of them "classical" at this point, though. She knows more about classical animation, like Tom and Jerry ;) It has been fascinating to me to see her really dive in to animation as an art form, study different ways of depicting characters, movement, emotion; different uses of line and color. The way she approaches animation is very very like a classical art education - which isn't to say all kids will do that, but that one doesn't need to be guided to specific materials in order to develop a body of knowledge and a strong understanding of a field. You don't Need to offer kids "classics" for that to happen.
---Meredith
> They can be shared with theUnless your kids aren't interested. My kids aren't, for the most part. My daughter doesn't like to be read to - and yet she's watched a number of "classics" via tv and movies and knows of many others via common references. One of the basic principles of unschooling is that learning derives from that which is meaningful. Reading "classical literature" to a child who is disinterested won't be a terribly meaningful endeavor.
> children - sharing great, entertaining, enjoyable books certainly doesn't
> violate the process of unschooling.
> These classics are inspiring and anUnschooling isn't about getting an education, though. At its most basic it is a matter of seeing that learning is such a natural human drive that parents have no need to regulate What children learn. Unschooling kids can learn everything they need Without pushing "classics" on them - yes, they can even learn to recognize references to classical literature and art from other sources, and some of them will pursue that and read "the classics" for themselves. If they want to.
> education in and of themselves
My daughter is much more interested in visual art than literature. She enjoys art museums and galleries and has a few favored artists - none of them "classical" at this point, though. She knows more about classical animation, like Tom and Jerry ;) It has been fascinating to me to see her really dive in to animation as an art form, study different ways of depicting characters, movement, emotion; different uses of line and color. The way she approaches animation is very very like a classical art education - which isn't to say all kids will do that, but that one doesn't need to be guided to specific materials in order to develop a body of knowledge and a strong understanding of a field. You don't Need to offer kids "classics" for that to happen.
> so one never has to wonder whether the childRight, a curriculum is a tool to reassure parents ;) It doesn't actually assure kids are learning what the parents think they are or want them to, though. That's another basic principle of unschooling - that teaching is not the source of learning.
> is learning 'enough.'
---Meredith