De-schooling-to-unschooling-to-eak - my son's question....
alisawinder
...has stumped me - any advice gratefully received.
This may be a long post: without background it may be tricky to help us, so thought this best.
Back in May we made the decision to de-register our children. In fact we'd wanted to for ages but kept finding excuses - there's no other way to put it - plenty of excuses, well, mostly fear?!
So, our first 3 have all been in school. Our eldest 'til his 1st year in secondary.
Anyhow, having spent ages looking at what would work best for us, unschooling was the most obvious and logical choice.
Fitting in the 'school' way had never worked for us or for our children - too narrow and without the values we'd spent years instilling. (That's not meant to sound nasty - I spent years teaching 'basic skills' in specialist units)
So, after the most amazingly inspiring evening with Sandra Dodd (thanks to another wonderful unschooler) we began our deschooling.
Sandra did say to allow one month for each year, so we knew that although things were happier, more relaxed, more like permanent summer holidays(!) we have been awaiting any blips..
In fact I cannot easily explain the extent of the joy that now flows from our children - the willingness to 'be' finally returned. Mutual respect. All the 'things' that unschoolers are lucky enough never to have lost.
Anyhow. Our eldest has asked if he can do a GCSE in Maths. He 'WANTS' to do this. He says he wants to see if he can do it. He 'wants' to know if he can achieve. (Which may be because he was left to his own devices at school as he 'knew too much' - no work ever marked, nor the same work as his peers and so he feels unrecognised?)
Now, my first instinct was to say, "Of course, that option is always there for you, you can do that if you wish. We don't mind either way, we'd just like you to do what interests you and makes you happy" ( I even went as far to say that I'd happily investigate where it could be done, how much but even if paid for he could still change his mind - is that wrong?)
Since then he's asked if it's ok or if it stops him being an unschooler.
I tried saying that if any person, unschooler or not, chose to play and play an instrument and then thought it might be nice to try for a formal qualification that that would be fine. It doesn't change them as a person. Just that his interest is Maths and not an instrument is ok too(??).
He's worried that if he wanted to do an exam it stops him being an unschooler and that he couldn't possibly be a member of any groups.
I've tried reassuring him that even without taking an exam he's more than capable and doesn't need to prove anything to anyone. I said this as we're sure this exam 'want' is because he feels he needs to prove things to family who disapprove of unschooling. (Also the EHE officer was referred to us as Leon was 'removed' from school (as they couldn't cater to his needs without funding) and this officer told him she wanted to see progress from what was detailed in the reports collated from school on all 3 of them)
We just don't know where to go from here and would love some pointers.
We have to be so careful in what we say because of his black and white/literal interpretation and how he becomes very 'stressed' easily.
Ironically a friend said we should just move! unfortunately that isn't any option at the minute...so all help gratefully read/listened to.
Thank you all very much
This may be a long post: without background it may be tricky to help us, so thought this best.
Back in May we made the decision to de-register our children. In fact we'd wanted to for ages but kept finding excuses - there's no other way to put it - plenty of excuses, well, mostly fear?!
So, our first 3 have all been in school. Our eldest 'til his 1st year in secondary.
Anyhow, having spent ages looking at what would work best for us, unschooling was the most obvious and logical choice.
Fitting in the 'school' way had never worked for us or for our children - too narrow and without the values we'd spent years instilling. (That's not meant to sound nasty - I spent years teaching 'basic skills' in specialist units)
So, after the most amazingly inspiring evening with Sandra Dodd (thanks to another wonderful unschooler) we began our deschooling.
Sandra did say to allow one month for each year, so we knew that although things were happier, more relaxed, more like permanent summer holidays(!) we have been awaiting any blips..
In fact I cannot easily explain the extent of the joy that now flows from our children - the willingness to 'be' finally returned. Mutual respect. All the 'things' that unschoolers are lucky enough never to have lost.
Anyhow. Our eldest has asked if he can do a GCSE in Maths. He 'WANTS' to do this. He says he wants to see if he can do it. He 'wants' to know if he can achieve. (Which may be because he was left to his own devices at school as he 'knew too much' - no work ever marked, nor the same work as his peers and so he feels unrecognised?)
Now, my first instinct was to say, "Of course, that option is always there for you, you can do that if you wish. We don't mind either way, we'd just like you to do what interests you and makes you happy" ( I even went as far to say that I'd happily investigate where it could be done, how much but even if paid for he could still change his mind - is that wrong?)
Since then he's asked if it's ok or if it stops him being an unschooler.
I tried saying that if any person, unschooler or not, chose to play and play an instrument and then thought it might be nice to try for a formal qualification that that would be fine. It doesn't change them as a person. Just that his interest is Maths and not an instrument is ok too(??).
He's worried that if he wanted to do an exam it stops him being an unschooler and that he couldn't possibly be a member of any groups.
I've tried reassuring him that even without taking an exam he's more than capable and doesn't need to prove anything to anyone. I said this as we're sure this exam 'want' is because he feels he needs to prove things to family who disapprove of unschooling. (Also the EHE officer was referred to us as Leon was 'removed' from school (as they couldn't cater to his needs without funding) and this officer told him she wanted to see progress from what was detailed in the reports collated from school on all 3 of them)
We just don't know where to go from here and would love some pointers.
We have to be so careful in what we say because of his black and white/literal interpretation and how he becomes very 'stressed' easily.
Ironically a friend said we should just move! unfortunately that isn't any option at the minute...so all help gratefully read/listened to.
Thank you all very much
plaidpanties666
"alisawinder" <alisawinder@...> wrote:
Nope.
If he wanted to go back to school, then you could argue that he's no longer an "unschooler" - but even if he wanted to get a tutor or take a class to help him pass a test, that's different. If there's a line (and it can be argued all sorts of ways) its school.
Some unschoolers are required to take tests every year! Maybe not where y'all live, but in parts of the US that's true and maybe in some countries on the continent - heck I don't think homeschooling is Legal in all European countries, although I'm not sure of the details.
---Meredith
>> Anyhow. Our eldest has asked if he can do a GCSE in Maths....****************
> Since then he's asked if it's ok or if it stops him being an unschooler.
Nope.
If he wanted to go back to school, then you could argue that he's no longer an "unschooler" - but even if he wanted to get a tutor or take a class to help him pass a test, that's different. If there's a line (and it can be argued all sorts of ways) its school.
Some unschoolers are required to take tests every year! Maybe not where y'all live, but in parts of the US that's true and maybe in some countries on the continent - heck I don't think homeschooling is Legal in all European countries, although I'm not sure of the details.
---Meredith
vickisue_gray
I see being an unschooler slightly different then just a defining line between 'going to school' or 'doing school' vs 'doing nothing that resembles school'.
For my family, we embrace the term 'unschooling' and more so 'radical unschooling' more as a concept that enables our children to have choices and the information needed to make informed choices. Unschooling [imho] is having the freedom to find ones own path and do which works best for a happy and fulling life.
Some people thrive in attending classes and learning from an instructor. Recently my son started taking karate lessons. Taking these 'classes' doesn't make him 'no longer an unschooler'. The fact that he was able to have the option and decide if he would or wouldn't take the class, actually makes him more of an unschooler. He knows that he can continue as long as I have employment [money is a factor] and he knows should he really decide against it, he can stop. Freedom. That's what unschooling means to us. The right for a young person to choose for themselves.
Vicki
For my family, we embrace the term 'unschooling' and more so 'radical unschooling' more as a concept that enables our children to have choices and the information needed to make informed choices. Unschooling [imho] is having the freedom to find ones own path and do which works best for a happy and fulling life.
Some people thrive in attending classes and learning from an instructor. Recently my son started taking karate lessons. Taking these 'classes' doesn't make him 'no longer an unschooler'. The fact that he was able to have the option and decide if he would or wouldn't take the class, actually makes him more of an unschooler. He knows that he can continue as long as I have employment [money is a factor] and he knows should he really decide against it, he can stop. Freedom. That's what unschooling means to us. The right for a young person to choose for themselves.
Vicki
Joyce Fetteroll
On Sep 4, 2011, at 1:04 PM, alisawinder wrote:
someone live a certain way, rather than a club where people can be
granted or stripped of the label "unschooler".
The first is a personal relationship with an idea. A philosophy is a
tool for someone to use to help them do what they want to do.
Specifically, the unschooling philosophy is a tool to help a parent
create a rich, supportive environment where her child can explore his
interests and stumble across new potential interests.
In my mind, young kids of moms who are using the unschooling
philosophy aren't unschooling. They're living life and learning in
ways that are natural to humans in an environment that supports that.
It makes me squirmy when people say they're unschooling themselves
because I see unschooling as creating an environment for someone else.
When someone's "unschooling themselves" they're not creating an
environment. They're doing what interests them. They're living life.
I would say that wanting to take an exam to prove (to self or to
others) that someone can do a subject as it's taught in school is
getting into a gray area that doesn't help someone understand what
unschooling is.
Taking taekwon do classes, testing for belts isn't a classroom version
of something that exists in real life. If someone wants to learn
taekwon do, they need to learn from someone who has the knowledge and
skills to pass it on. Same with ballet. Neither is knowledge people
can pick up from living life. (Unless someone's growing up in a
dojo! ;-)
On the other hand, fighting and dance and painting, which embrace a
wide range of ways to go about them, can be picked up from real life.
If someone wants to refine their skills and knowledge in a specific
direction they'll need a more formal approach.
But math. Math is part of real life. It can be learned by living life.
School math, on the other hand, isn't just a classroom version of real
life math. I wouldn't even call it a specific kind of math as ballet
is a specific kind of dance. School math is like a shadow cast by
(real world) math but is studied and treated as though it were the
thing casting the shadow. It's assumed that by studying the shadow
people will come to understand the thing casting the shadow. But if
that does happen, it's not because of school math. It's because that's
how someone's brain is wired. Most people just find the shadow
confusing and wonder why they're studying it. Some find the shadow
fascinating (I did) but don't grasp how it relates to what's casting
the shadow. (Because of how school math is taught, the connection
isn't necessary.)
His desire to pass the test really isn't unschooling or not
unschooling. *Why* he wants to pass the test is more telling. (There
may be multiple reasons.) What won't help him is looking for
unschooling reasons to take the test. What will help him is to drop
the question of whether it's unschooling or not and examine why he
thinks it's important to pass the test. In what ways will he be a
different person if he passes or doesn't pass? How will his view of
himself change if he passes or doesn't pass? Why? Will it be important
for other people to know he passed? Why? Will he be able to pass and
not tell anyone?
I've written a bit about how school math and (real life) math aren't
related:
http://joyfullyrejoycing.com/ (down the left hand side under Math)
It might help him see that meeting school milestones doesn't have much
to do with competency in skill in real life. It's just about school.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> He's worried that if he wanted to do an exam it stops him being anI think it helps to see unschooling as a philosophy, a way to help
> unschooler
someone live a certain way, rather than a club where people can be
granted or stripped of the label "unschooler".
The first is a personal relationship with an idea. A philosophy is a
tool for someone to use to help them do what they want to do.
Specifically, the unschooling philosophy is a tool to help a parent
create a rich, supportive environment where her child can explore his
interests and stumble across new potential interests.
In my mind, young kids of moms who are using the unschooling
philosophy aren't unschooling. They're living life and learning in
ways that are natural to humans in an environment that supports that.
It makes me squirmy when people say they're unschooling themselves
because I see unschooling as creating an environment for someone else.
When someone's "unschooling themselves" they're not creating an
environment. They're doing what interests them. They're living life.
I would say that wanting to take an exam to prove (to self or to
others) that someone can do a subject as it's taught in school is
getting into a gray area that doesn't help someone understand what
unschooling is.
Taking taekwon do classes, testing for belts isn't a classroom version
of something that exists in real life. If someone wants to learn
taekwon do, they need to learn from someone who has the knowledge and
skills to pass it on. Same with ballet. Neither is knowledge people
can pick up from living life. (Unless someone's growing up in a
dojo! ;-)
On the other hand, fighting and dance and painting, which embrace a
wide range of ways to go about them, can be picked up from real life.
If someone wants to refine their skills and knowledge in a specific
direction they'll need a more formal approach.
But math. Math is part of real life. It can be learned by living life.
School math, on the other hand, isn't just a classroom version of real
life math. I wouldn't even call it a specific kind of math as ballet
is a specific kind of dance. School math is like a shadow cast by
(real world) math but is studied and treated as though it were the
thing casting the shadow. It's assumed that by studying the shadow
people will come to understand the thing casting the shadow. But if
that does happen, it's not because of school math. It's because that's
how someone's brain is wired. Most people just find the shadow
confusing and wonder why they're studying it. Some find the shadow
fascinating (I did) but don't grasp how it relates to what's casting
the shadow. (Because of how school math is taught, the connection
isn't necessary.)
His desire to pass the test really isn't unschooling or not
unschooling. *Why* he wants to pass the test is more telling. (There
may be multiple reasons.) What won't help him is looking for
unschooling reasons to take the test. What will help him is to drop
the question of whether it's unschooling or not and examine why he
thinks it's important to pass the test. In what ways will he be a
different person if he passes or doesn't pass? How will his view of
himself change if he passes or doesn't pass? Why? Will it be important
for other people to know he passed? Why? Will he be able to pass and
not tell anyone?
I've written a bit about how school math and (real life) math aren't
related:
http://joyfullyrejoycing.com/ (down the left hand side under Math)
It might help him see that meeting school milestones doesn't have much
to do with competency in skill in real life. It's just about school.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
alisawinder
Thank Joyce..
Ironically today whilst I was at work, Leon was on the computer and when looking through my bookmarks....he found your website (he's already been 'flicking' Sandra Dodd's big book).
Anyhow - he said to me (mid hug and rather swiftly in his Aspy way) "You know what. I know maths. I use it all the time. Perhaps I'll do an exam if/when I need it, like if I want to do a specific thing at Uni , or if it's useful. You know that I know. The boys know I know. Wew just do it, don't we, like a third of something, or 10%, or VAT, or stuff, or patterns, or symmetry in leaves. If that lady askd me I'm gonna tell her just what I told you. I'm learning about me, and that's more important. It's back to how we used to do stuff - we just 'do' it: you make it happen but we don't 'really' notice you doing it - unless I really hunt for the clues!"
So there we have it - need I have asked the question? Probably not, the answer arrived all on its own.
More importantly Leon has answered something for himself and the boost its given him is amazing: tonight he sat 'proportioning' (his saying) his dinner - something he always used to do prior to school but after being teased relentlessly had stopped.
To us, that was a good sign - comfortable again.
So, basically just thought you might like to know..
:)
Ironically today whilst I was at work, Leon was on the computer and when looking through my bookmarks....he found your website (he's already been 'flicking' Sandra Dodd's big book).
Anyhow - he said to me (mid hug and rather swiftly in his Aspy way) "You know what. I know maths. I use it all the time. Perhaps I'll do an exam if/when I need it, like if I want to do a specific thing at Uni , or if it's useful. You know that I know. The boys know I know. Wew just do it, don't we, like a third of something, or 10%, or VAT, or stuff, or patterns, or symmetry in leaves. If that lady askd me I'm gonna tell her just what I told you. I'm learning about me, and that's more important. It's back to how we used to do stuff - we just 'do' it: you make it happen but we don't 'really' notice you doing it - unless I really hunt for the clues!"
So there we have it - need I have asked the question? Probably not, the answer arrived all on its own.
More importantly Leon has answered something for himself and the boost its given him is amazing: tonight he sat 'proportioning' (his saying) his dinner - something he always used to do prior to school but after being teased relentlessly had stopped.
To us, that was a good sign - comfortable again.
So, basically just thought you might like to know..
:)
alisawinder
Thank you for that...everyone has been so helpful - I've replied to Joyce aty length and didn't think I'd clog everywhere - the points you make have helped me see 'separation' but also not to be fearful.
Choices, choices and choices with the freedom to make the choice that suits you at that time :) - changing minds is cool too :) which although the poor kids went to school we do believe in that! (why did we ever do it?!)
Choices, choices and choices with the freedom to make the choice that suits you at that time :) - changing minds is cool too :) which although the poor kids went to school we do believe in that! (why did we ever do it?!)
--- In [email protected], "vickisue_gray" <vickisue_gray@...> wrote:
>
> I see being an unschooler slightly different then just a defining line between 'going to school' or 'doing school' vs 'doing nothing that resembles school'.
>
> For my family, we embrace the term 'unschooling' and more so 'radical unschooling' more as a concept that enables our children to have choices and the information needed to make informed choices. Unschooling [imho] is having the freedom to find ones own path and do which works best for a happy and fulling life.
>
> Some people thrive in attending classes and learning from an instructor. Recently my son started taking karate lessons. Taking these 'classes' doesn't make him 'no longer an unschooler'. The fact that he was able to have the option and decide if he would or wouldn't take the class, actually makes him more of an unschooler. He knows that he can continue as long as I have employment [money is a factor] and he knows should he really decide against it, he can stop. Freedom. That's what unschooling means to us. The right for a young person to choose for themselves.
>
> Vicki
>