Sex ed?
strange_translation
Hello, everyone. I have a question, of course! ;-) My daughter, who is seven, got a book from the library about "girl stuff." It's a fairly thick book which covers body development, sex, dating, etc. The authors say it's for girls eleven and up. My daughter just adores this book and has even made her own version of it for fun. My partner says I should not have let her check out the book and that I need to be filtering things far more for her at this age. He says I've taken out some of the magic of childhood and there are things not appropriate to know about at her age.
I'm torn; I do feel a little uncomfortable when she wants me to read the book aloud, although I do anyway and I've told her about my discomfort and that it comes partly from how I was raised and partly because it isn't so common to discuss such things in detail with someone as young as she is. She is reading at an adult level and so could easily have read the book herself. I'm not sure how to handle such things in the future. She has taught herself basic algebra and she knows all about the digestive system, for example, and I don't take those things away and tell her they're for older kids. And although I might not ideally have chosen for sex and dating to be her current educational passion, I do think it's nice that when she hits puberty that her development won't be a mystery but will seem natural.
The worst part is, that now that her dad has expressed his opinion, my daughter calls the book she made her "book of shame," which is exactly what I wouldn't want. I don't ever want her to feel shame about anything.
Thoughts? And thanks for being there. :-)
I'm torn; I do feel a little uncomfortable when she wants me to read the book aloud, although I do anyway and I've told her about my discomfort and that it comes partly from how I was raised and partly because it isn't so common to discuss such things in detail with someone as young as she is. She is reading at an adult level and so could easily have read the book herself. I'm not sure how to handle such things in the future. She has taught herself basic algebra and she knows all about the digestive system, for example, and I don't take those things away and tell her they're for older kids. And although I might not ideally have chosen for sex and dating to be her current educational passion, I do think it's nice that when she hits puberty that her development won't be a mystery but will seem natural.
The worst part is, that now that her dad has expressed his opinion, my daughter calls the book she made her "book of shame," which is exactly what I wouldn't want. I don't ever want her to feel shame about anything.
Thoughts? And thanks for being there. :-)
plaidpanties666
"strange_translation" <senlin_says@...> wrote:
It's kind of an odd arguement, that knowing where babies come from and other wonders of nature somehow makes the world less special - personally I always found that sort of information made life more magnificent.
That being said, rather than get in an arguement with your partner, it might be better to take the opportunity to ask him about his own childhood, the good and the bad. It could be a chance to open a conversation with him about sex and socialization, too, and how it feels for him to be the father of a daughter. But none of that should be done as a way of winning and arguement, rather as a way to connect with him and let him know his thoughts and feelings, hopes and fears are important to you. Partners are more often comfortable with unschooling when they get some of the "benefits" - so treat yours as respectfully as you would your child, whether or not you agree with him.
It might help to reassure him that she's unlikely to be harmed by reading things she doesn't understand - those sorts of things tends to go right past kids without having any effect on their "innocence". After all, kids who grow up with a bunch of younger siblings or with lots of breeding animals around gain quite a bit of knowledge about reproduction and biology without "growing up too fast".
Sexism and attitudes that sex is bad/wrong/dirty haven't disappeared from the world, though. You wouldn't be able to protect her from those kinds of attitudes forever. What you can do is affirm her desire to learn about her body and support her in that - and get over your own discomfort in reading it aloud to her ;) If she wants, you can talk about some of those other messages that sex and female anatomy are dirty and shameful and what you and other grown women do to keep those messages from wearing you down.
---Meredith
>He says I've taken out some of the magic of childhood and there are things not appropriate to know about at her age.*************
It's kind of an odd arguement, that knowing where babies come from and other wonders of nature somehow makes the world less special - personally I always found that sort of information made life more magnificent.
That being said, rather than get in an arguement with your partner, it might be better to take the opportunity to ask him about his own childhood, the good and the bad. It could be a chance to open a conversation with him about sex and socialization, too, and how it feels for him to be the father of a daughter. But none of that should be done as a way of winning and arguement, rather as a way to connect with him and let him know his thoughts and feelings, hopes and fears are important to you. Partners are more often comfortable with unschooling when they get some of the "benefits" - so treat yours as respectfully as you would your child, whether or not you agree with him.
>>My partner says I should not have let her check out the book and that I need to be filtering things far more for her at this age.***************
It might help to reassure him that she's unlikely to be harmed by reading things she doesn't understand - those sorts of things tends to go right past kids without having any effect on their "innocence". After all, kids who grow up with a bunch of younger siblings or with lots of breeding animals around gain quite a bit of knowledge about reproduction and biology without "growing up too fast".
> The worst part is, that now that her dad has expressed his opinion, my daughter calls the book she made her "book of shame," which is exactly what I wouldn't want. I don't ever want her to feel shame about anything.*****************
Sexism and attitudes that sex is bad/wrong/dirty haven't disappeared from the world, though. You wouldn't be able to protect her from those kinds of attitudes forever. What you can do is affirm her desire to learn about her body and support her in that - and get over your own discomfort in reading it aloud to her ;) If she wants, you can talk about some of those other messages that sex and female anatomy are dirty and shameful and what you and other grown women do to keep those messages from wearing you down.
---Meredith
Joyce Fetteroll
On Jul 14, 2011, at 7:58 AM, strange_translation wrote:
the same to her as it does to you. People don't absorb the meaning of
words and all that the words connect to with the words. People build
and refine their understanding of a word slowly with time. She's using
shame in the right context but its unlikely to have the amount of
baggage connected to it for her as it does for you. Right now to her
it might mean secret or something less focused than it does to adults.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> The worst part is, that now that her dad has expressed his opinion,Unless shame is an often used concept in your house, it may not mean
> my daughter calls the book she made her "book of shame," which is
> exactly what I wouldn't want.
the same to her as it does to you. People don't absorb the meaning of
words and all that the words connect to with the words. People build
and refine their understanding of a word slowly with time. She's using
shame in the right context but its unlikely to have the amount of
baggage connected to it for her as it does for you. Right now to her
it might mean secret or something less focused than it does to adults.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
I think it's wonderful that your DD is so smart and so comfortable with her body. Dad needs to butt out if he's only bringing negative ideas to the table. Maybe he's not comfortable with the idea of his little girl growing up. Whatever. It's her body and she's doing great. If she can shed herself of the "shame" crap.
Nance
Nance
--- In [email protected], "strange_translation" <senlin_says@...> wrote:
>
> Hello, everyone. I have a question, of course! ;-) My daughter, who is seven, got a book from the library about "girl stuff." It's a fairly thick book which covers body development, sex, dating, etc. The authors say it's for girls eleven and up. My daughter just adores this book and has even made her own version of it for fun. My partner says I should not have let her check out the book and that I need to be filtering things far more for her at this age. He says I've taken o
Karen Swanay
Given her age and relative maturity which may be advanced in general...I
still read this business about "shame" and I don't hear it coming from her
mouth. Likely it was from yours. Be sure that she isn't overhearing you
bickering with her father, or even politely discussing her interest in this
subject etc...
And I hope you aren't doing the "she's my friend" thing and discussing this
with her. (The being at odds with her father over this.) Because that will
do far more damage in the long run that her being uncomfortable with her
body.
It is very easy to "seed" ideas in our children's heads by repeating our own
implicit bias on things. Just be certain that's not what is going on here
so you know she's saying what she thinks and feels...not repeating what
someone else thinks and feels.
KRS
"One of the first effects of school is to break the bond between parents
and children, when the children are five or younger. It breaks bonds
between siblings, and replaces them with prejudices about age and grade,
with rules against playing with kids of other ages, and with social
pressure to be hateful and secretive." ~Sandra Dodd
On Fri, Jul 15, 2011 at 7:08 AM, marbleface@... <
marbleface@...> wrote:
still read this business about "shame" and I don't hear it coming from her
mouth. Likely it was from yours. Be sure that she isn't overhearing you
bickering with her father, or even politely discussing her interest in this
subject etc...
And I hope you aren't doing the "she's my friend" thing and discussing this
with her. (The being at odds with her father over this.) Because that will
do far more damage in the long run that her being uncomfortable with her
body.
It is very easy to "seed" ideas in our children's heads by repeating our own
implicit bias on things. Just be certain that's not what is going on here
so you know she's saying what she thinks and feels...not repeating what
someone else thinks and feels.
KRS
"One of the first effects of school is to break the bond between parents
and children, when the children are five or younger. It breaks bonds
between siblings, and replaces them with prejudices about age and grade,
with rules against playing with kids of other ages, and with social
pressure to be hateful and secretive." ~Sandra Dodd
On Fri, Jul 15, 2011 at 7:08 AM, marbleface@... <
marbleface@...> wrote:
> **[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> I think it's wonderful that your DD is so smart and so comfortable with her
> body. Dad needs to butt out if he's only bringing negative ideas to the
> table. Maybe he's not comfortable with the idea of his little girl growing
> up. Whatever. It's her body and she's doing great. If she can shed herself
> of the "shame" crap.
>
> Nance
>
>
> --- In [email protected], "strange_translation"
> <senlin_says@...> wrote:
> >
> > Hello, everyone. I have a question, of course! ;-) My daughter, who is
> seven, got a book from the library about "girl stuff." It's a fairly thick
> book which covers body development, sex, dating, etc. The authors say it's
> for girls eleven and up. My daughter just adores this book and has even made
> her own version of it for fun. My partner says I should not have let her
> check out the book and that I need to be filtering things far more for her
> at this age. He says I've taken o
>
>
>
Joyce Fetteroll
On Jul 15, 2011, at 7:55 AM, Joyce Fetteroll wrote:
and she's picking up on them. Only to suggest to give her reaction
some perspective if you're thinking in terms of "Oh, my goodness, it's
horrible she's now thinking this way. How am I going to fix this!" It
may not be as big a deal to her as it is to you.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Unless shame is an often used concept in your house, it may not meanAnd I didn't mean to imply that it's okay that he's making comments
> the same to her as it does to you.
and she's picking up on them. Only to suggest to give her reaction
some perspective if you're thinking in terms of "Oh, my goodness, it's
horrible she's now thinking this way. How am I going to fix this!" It
may not be as big a deal to her as it is to you.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
plaidpanties666
Joyce Fetteroll wrote:
Mo will use expressions like that correctly in context without really knowing what they mean - its part of how she figures out what words and expressions mean, to use them and see how people around her respond.
---Meredith
>That's a good point - its possible she's picked up the whole expression "book of shame" or some variant, used humerously on a television show or movie. I first "read" it in my mind in some silly over-dramatic tone voice as though it were being said by a character from one of Mo's favorite cartoons.
> > Unless shame is an often used concept in your house, it may not mean
> > the same to her as it does to you.
Mo will use expressions like that correctly in context without really knowing what they mean - its part of how she figures out what words and expressions mean, to use them and see how people around her respond.
---Meredith
undermom
One of my daughters had breast buds at age 8yr1mo.
7 is NOT too young to know about or be interested in what is going to be happening to her body.
Deborah in IL
7 is NOT too young to know about or be interested in what is going to be happening to her body.
Deborah in IL
strange_translation
Karen,
She didn't get the "shame" word from me-- I hated hearing "You should be ashamed of yourself" when I was little and so I avoid the word-- and I don't think she got it from her father. But what you said concerns me-- we did have the talk about the original library book with her in the room. It came up because she was sitting on the couch reading her own book she'd written on the topic, and her dad asked to see it and then I came into the room and he was already upset about it and we talked. And so my daughter and I did discuss afterward how Daddy feels differently from Mommy on many topics but it doesn't mean she should feel bad or wrong about anything she and I have learned together. Are you thinking her dad and I should do more of the "united front" thing on this and keep our discussions behind closed doors? I'm not asking this to argue at all but just to pick your brain for a little more clarification. I'm still figuring out this unschooling thing and may have confused "living an open book life" with "too much information," it seems! :-)
Jennifer (strange_translation)
She didn't get the "shame" word from me-- I hated hearing "You should be ashamed of yourself" when I was little and so I avoid the word-- and I don't think she got it from her father. But what you said concerns me-- we did have the talk about the original library book with her in the room. It came up because she was sitting on the couch reading her own book she'd written on the topic, and her dad asked to see it and then I came into the room and he was already upset about it and we talked. And so my daughter and I did discuss afterward how Daddy feels differently from Mommy on many topics but it doesn't mean she should feel bad or wrong about anything she and I have learned together. Are you thinking her dad and I should do more of the "united front" thing on this and keep our discussions behind closed doors? I'm not asking this to argue at all but just to pick your brain for a little more clarification. I'm still figuring out this unschooling thing and may have confused "living an open book life" with "too much information," it seems! :-)
Jennifer (strange_translation)
--- In [email protected], Karen Swanay <luvbullbreeds@...> wrote:
>
> Given her age and relative maturity which may be advanced in general...I
> still read this business about "shame" and I don't hear it coming from her
> mouth. Likely it was from yours. Be sure that she isn't overhearing you
> bickering with her father, or even politely discussing her interest in this
> subject etc...
>
> And I hope you aren't doing the "she's my friend" thing and discussing this
> with her. (The being at odds with her father over this.) Because that will
> do far more damage in the long run that her being uncomfortable with her
> body.
>
> It is very easy to "seed" ideas in our children's heads by repeating our own
> implicit bias on things. Just be certain that's not what is going on here
> so you know she's saying what she thinks and feels...not repeating what
> someone else thinks and feels.
>
> KRS
>
>
> > **
> >
plaidpanties666
"strange_translation" <senlin_says@...> wrote:
I'm guessing Karen means not to gang up on dad. It's better to consider that the whole family is a team together, not you and dad against the child or mom and kids against dad - or "the girls" against the one male in the family.
The usual "united front" is parents against kids - which doesn't help in terms of building communication or supporting relationships. In those terms, there's no "rule" as to whether its better to keep adult conversations away from kids - its a matter of thinking about all the individual relationships as well as the "team" as a whole. How does your daughter react to intense conversations between you and dad? How does dad feel about "airing his dirty laundry" as it were in front of his daughter? It might be better to have some conversations privately so that your husband isn't on the defensive. It might be better to have some conversations openly so that your daughter doesn't feel shut out.
"Too much information" will vary from person to person, it will change as kids get older, it will be different when your daughter is in a cheerful mood and when she's hungry and want's some space ;) Unschooling doesn't necessarily mean you "live an open book" - its not terribly considerate of the needs of children to dump lots of personal issues on them! It's not a bad thing to censor yourself in that regard, out of consideration for the needs and thoughts and feelings of the people around you.
In conventional thinking "being a friend to your child" is too often equated with parents dumping adult concerns on kids - which isn't being a *good* friend, that's for sure! Be a *good* friend to you daughter and to your husband. Think about their viewpoints, what's important to them. Look for cues that say "too much information" rather than trying to default to some rule.
---Meredith
>Are you thinking her dad and I should do more of the "united front" thing on this and keep our discussions behind closed doors?*****************
I'm guessing Karen means not to gang up on dad. It's better to consider that the whole family is a team together, not you and dad against the child or mom and kids against dad - or "the girls" against the one male in the family.
The usual "united front" is parents against kids - which doesn't help in terms of building communication or supporting relationships. In those terms, there's no "rule" as to whether its better to keep adult conversations away from kids - its a matter of thinking about all the individual relationships as well as the "team" as a whole. How does your daughter react to intense conversations between you and dad? How does dad feel about "airing his dirty laundry" as it were in front of his daughter? It might be better to have some conversations privately so that your husband isn't on the defensive. It might be better to have some conversations openly so that your daughter doesn't feel shut out.
>>I'm still figuring out this unschooling thing and may have confused "living an open book life" with "too much information," it seems!****************
"Too much information" will vary from person to person, it will change as kids get older, it will be different when your daughter is in a cheerful mood and when she's hungry and want's some space ;) Unschooling doesn't necessarily mean you "live an open book" - its not terribly considerate of the needs of children to dump lots of personal issues on them! It's not a bad thing to censor yourself in that regard, out of consideration for the needs and thoughts and feelings of the people around you.
In conventional thinking "being a friend to your child" is too often equated with parents dumping adult concerns on kids - which isn't being a *good* friend, that's for sure! Be a *good* friend to you daughter and to your husband. Think about their viewpoints, what's important to them. Look for cues that say "too much information" rather than trying to default to some rule.
---Meredith
strange_translation
I just wanted to thank everyone for your thoughtful responses so far. I am feeling a great sense of relief. I am grateful for this group! _-Jennifer
--- In [email protected], "strange_translation" <senlin_says@...> wrote:
>
> Hello, everyone. I have a question, of course! ;-) My daughter, who is seven, got a book from the library about "girl stuff."