odiniella

Since putting away our school curricula, our home has really changed
nicely, but yesterday my ds (11) made a comment that has become a bit
more common than I'm comfortable with and I'd like very much to be able
to fend off any trouble before it starts. I'm finding myself
negotiating with my son more and more these days. I'm trying to stop
and really think about the requests/demands I'm expecting, but my
concern is this habit of putting off what needs to be done with apparent
disregard for respecting others. I don't think it's conscious, I think
he's just living in the moment. However, I've seen this attitude take
on a bit more courage now that I'm not taking on the position of
controlling his time by making him do things like school work and house
chores. He's getting quite brazen about telling me no or "hang on"
(which is his nice way of saying "no"). A recent example:


He and a friend were testing designs for an upcoming egg drop contest
at the local homeschool science fair this week. They used some tomatoes
I gave them for the project. Being soft and vulnerable, they thought
that was a great idea and had lots of fun testing different ideas. They
found one they think will work well, and ran off the park to play after
I watched their success and reminded him to clean up when done. When I
went outside I found the street full of tomato skins, tools, scraps of
cardboard, all kinds of evidence of their good time. I called ds to ask
him to please come home and clean it and he refused. Just refused. He
explained he was having fun with his friend and I reminded him this
would take less than two minutes and he could go back to the park, but
it was totally uncool to leave the neighborhood looking like this. He
did come back but immediately started arguing with me. I can understand
he wants to know why, although we'll have to talk about arguing in
general and how that's going to backfire with friends and future
employers, etc. It's not a matter of forgetting (I'm like that too, I
know how that works), it's a matter of refusing when it's pointed out.

Ideas?

Thanks,

Helen


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

BRIAN POLIKOWSKY

Ideas?

Yes, next time you can just wait until he is done and then help him clean up.'
If I had started dinner and decided to go to the garden to get some herbs and got distracted weeding and my husband called me
inside because I had not cleaned up after myself before I left the house I would be pretty mad.


Alex Polikowsky


 




  

.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Francine

Depending on what it is, I know my brother (who has dealt with older kids, mine
are young yet) would do things like hang their jackets up outside or leave them
were they were because they would get wet. Then in the morning he would send
them off with his old old sweatshirts which they didn't like (ok, they were
going off to school, but could work for other things like going anywhere). It
was pretty quick they learned to put their jackets and such away so they had
them in the morning. I know it doesn't help with the tomato experiment though.
Basically they need to learn that their are consequences to their behavior.

Also, one thing may be to think about your tone when talking with him. I know
my kids are more receptive with certain tones than others when talking with
them. I even make sure they know that I notice their deeds and how much I
appreciate it while they are doing stuff and when they are done. It makes them
want to cooperate more. The more I "push" and have a negative tone, the more
push back and fighting I get.

I also like Alex's suggestion as well.

Francine




________________________________
From: odiniella <hgaimari@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Mon, May 9, 2011 8:21:04 PM
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Question about compliance




Ideas?

Thanks,

Helen

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joyce Fetteroll

On May 9, 2011, at 8:21 PM, odiniella wrote:

> He
> did come back but immediately started arguing with me.

I agree with Alex. Assume he's doing the best he can and if he can't
do as well as the job needs, then he needs help.

Since you haven't been radical unschooling all along, for many months
his best is going to have some baggage getting in his way of doing the
best he could have done. Being respectful of kids doesn't magically
erase the damage of previous years when they felt disrespected.

Be patient. Be understanding. Be accepting that he's working through
some left over emotions. He'll do better when he can. And he'll be
able to do better sooner the more understanding accepting you are of
what he needs to work through.


> I can understand
> he wants to know why, although we'll have to talk about arguing in
> general and how that's going to backfire with friends and future
> employers, etc. It's not a matter of forgetting (I'm like that too, I
> know how that works), it's a matter of refusing when it's pointed out.

No, don't talk to him. This is about your relationship with him, not
his with other people. *He* knows the difference between how he feels
when a friend asks him to do something and when you do, and he'll tune
you out if you make the assumption that he needs to be fixed rather
than your relationship that needs to heal.

Don't assume who he is now is who he'll be 10 years from now. Who he
is now isn't who he was 10 years ago. He's gone through enormous
changes. And he'll go through even more changes in the next 10 years.

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

odiniella

--- In [email protected], Joyce Fetteroll
<jfetteroll@...> wrote:

> I agree with Alex. Assume he's doing the best he can and if he can't
> do as well as the job needs, then he needs help.
In general I'm used to the idea that if a child can do something
independently, then doing it with or for him constantly is just enabling
laziness. I don't think my son is lazy but I'm trying to explore this
idea in a way that is new to me.

****
> Since you haven't been radical unschooling all along, for many months
> his best is going to have some baggage getting in his way of doing the
> best he could have done. Being respectful of kids doesn't magically
> erase the damage of previous years when they felt disrespected.
>
> Be patient. Be understanding. Be accepting that he's working through
> some left over emotions. He'll do better when he can. And he'll be
> able to do better sooner the more understanding accepting you are of
> what he needs to work through.

Okay, I'm tracking with you.


*****
> No, don't talk to him. This is about your relationship with him, not
> his with other people. *He* knows the difference between how he feels
> when a friend asks him to do something and when you do, and he'll tune
> you out if you make the assumption that he needs to be fixed rather
> than your relationship that needs to heal.
>
> Don't assume who he is now is who he'll be 10 years from now. Who he
> is now isn't who he was 10 years ago. He's gone through enormous
> changes. And he'll go through even more changes in the next 10 years.
>
> Joyce



And especially here. Thanks for the insight.
Helen


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

odiniella

--- In [email protected], BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
<polykowholsteins@...> wrote:
>
> Ideas?
>
> Yes, next time you can just wait until he is done and then help him
clean up.'
> If I had started dinner and decided to go to the garden to get some
herbs and got distracted weeding and my husband called me
> inside because I had not cleaned up after myself before I left the
house I would be pretty mad.
>
>
> Alex Polikowsky



Point taken. Considering this is a new approach for us, should
something like this happen again and I wait to help him clean up but he
doesn't want to, I would let him go and offer to do it myself? I
suspect the idea here is that the bargaining chip (control) is
eliminated and I'm just doing a nice thing because it's the nice thing
to do. Eventually when he stops suspecting I want something from him
then he will feel safe enough to do unpleasant work simply because no
one is keeping score anymore and it's the nice thing to do. Is that
right?

Helen


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joyce Fetteroll

On May 9, 2011, at 9:22 PM, odiniella wrote:

> In general I'm used to the idea that if a child can do something
> independently, then doing it with or for him constantly is just
> enabling
> laziness. I don't think my son is lazy but I'm trying to explore this
> idea in a way that is new to me.

If you could change the oil in your car but really didn't like to,
wouldn't you want as much help as your husband could give you?

Would he be enabling laziness in you if he helped? Or would it feel
like he cared about what he liked and didn't like and cared about you
being happy?

How would you feel if he were thinking "If I help her with x task,
I'll make her lazy."

For one thing, it means he's standing back watching you, judging you,
and has an agenda for who he wants you to be. Like he shaping you
rather than being your partner in life.

We build relationships by being attentive to the other's needs and not
letting scripts get in between us.

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

lylaw

>>>>>>>>
Would he be enabling laziness in you if he helped? Or would it feel
like he cared about what he liked and didn't like and cared about you
being happy?

How would you feel if he were thinking "If I help her with x task,
I'll make her lazy."

For one thing, it means he's standing back watching you, judging you,
and has an agenda for who he wants you to be. Like he shaping you
rather than being your partner in life.

We build relationships by being attentive to the other's needs and not
letting scripts get in between us.

Joyce>>>>>


also, that perspective of enabling laziness is predicated on the assumption that humans, by nature, are inherently lazy, and that if given the opportunity would not want to do anything they didn’t absolutely have to do. this just isn’t true!

lyla


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

BRIAN POLIKOWSKY

I think you should not overthink ,  specially in terms of "bargaining chip".
You could have waited until he got home, and asked him, or him and his friend, if they
had a minute to clean it up and I would just help them out unless they wanted to do it themselves.
A simple " hey guys , do you have a minute to clean all that stuff up?" and I would just help them.
But first ask them if they have a minute.
You could also just go ahead and do it if it is something that bothers you too much.
He may start to notice and say " Hey mom thanks." for which I would say :"Sure honey, you were with
your friend and it took me just a minute to do it".
My kids help me a lot and sometimes they compete for who is going to help me. I do stuff for them all the time.
The more I do for him the more they do for me.  It may take a while for your son to feel like giving to you.
Don;t give expecting it back. Give because you want to, a gift.
Can you think how you would like your partner to do for you.
Would you feel loved if after you were baking one night and was too tired to clean you would wake up
to a clean kitchen just because??
This reminds me of a great blog post from an unschooled mom:
http://gail-hummingbirdhaven.blogspot.com/2009/07/just-clean-kitchenor-is-it.html
 

  also some great reads:
http://sandradodd.com/chores/tales
http://sandradodd.com/chores/gift
 
 

Alex Polikowsky


 

From: odiniella <hgaimari@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Monday, May 9, 2011 8:27 PM
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Re: Question about compliance


 


--- In [email protected], BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
<polykowholsteins@...> wrote:
>
> Ideas?
>
> Yes, next time you can just wait until he is done and then help him
clean up.'
> If I had started dinner and decided to go to the garden to get some
herbs and got distracted weeding and my husband called me
> inside because I had not cleaned up after myself before I left the
house I would be pretty mad.
>
>
> Alex Polikowsky

Point taken. Considering this is a new approach for us, should
something like this happen again and I wait to help him clean up but he
doesn't want to, I would let him go and offer to do it myself? I
suspect the idea here is that the bargaining chip (control) is
eliminated and I'm just doing a nice thing because it's the nice thing
to do. Eventually when he stops suspecting I want something from him
then he will feel safe enough to do unpleasant work simply because no
one is keeping score anymore and it's the nice thing to do. Is that
right?

Helen

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

otherstar

From: odiniella
Sent: Monday, May 09, 2011 8:27 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: Question about compliance
>>>Considering this is a new approach for us, should something like this happen again and I wait to help him clean up but he doesn't want to, I would let him go and offer to do it myself?<<<
I don’t like to give blanket answers because every situation is different. If there was a tomato mess in the street, how important is cleaning it up immediately? If you live in a nice neighborhood where there are expectations on how things should be kept, then I would probably clean it up immediately without saying anything to anybody. In my neighborhood where there are no real expectations because it is semi-rural, I might pick up the tools but leave the tomatoes for the birds and other wild animals. If I am in a position to take care of something for my kids, I try to do it. If I am busy, then I try to assume that my child is also busy and that one or both of us will get to it as soon as possible. I have found it helpful to not focus on WHO made the mess. I try to notice that there is a mess and do something about it because I am just as prone to making messes as my children are. I don’t want them to get the idea that you only have to clean up the messes that you make. I like to focus on the idea that a mess is a mess no matter who made it. If somebody is in a position to clean it up, then they should.
>>>I suspect the idea here is that the bargaining chip (control) is eliminated and I'm just doing a nice thing because it's the nice thing to do. Eventually when he stops suspecting I want something from him then he will feel safe enough to do unpleasant work simply because no one is keeping score anymore and it's the nice thing to do. Is that right?<<<
There are a couple things here that I wanted to comment on. First, I think that whichever approach you choose is based on control. I have found that I have to get the idea of control out of my head. The way you have phrased it almost makes it sound as though you are eliminating the illusion of controlling to get him to do what you want. It sounds like you have an agenda either way. How will you feel if he NEVER decides to do what you want him to do? How will you feel if he NEVER chooses to do unpleasant work?
Also, how do you define unpleasant? I have found that unpleasant can vary from person to person. My husband likes cleaning the bathroom but I find it unpleasant. I like cleaning the dishes but my husband doesn’t. We try to make each other’s lives (and our kids’ lives) more pleasant by giving each other the room to do things that we like to do.
You see cleaning up as unpleasant. If you see it as unpleasant and act as though it is unpleasant, then he will get the idea that it is unpleasant. Why would he want to do something that his mom advertises as being unpleasant?
Connie

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

odiniella

--- In [email protected], "otherstar" <otherstar@...>
wrote:
>
> There are a couple things here that I wanted to comment on. First, I
think that whichever approach you choose is based on control. I have
found that I have to get the idea of control out of my head. The way you
have phrased it almost makes it sound as though you are eliminating the
illusion of controlling to get him to do what you want. It sounds like
you have an agenda either way. How will you feel if he NEVER decides to
do what you want him to do? How will you feel if he NEVER chooses to do
unpleasant work?

I think you're right on the mark here with control. It's not something
I want but is something I grew up with and so I think I can be blind to
it. How would I feel if my son never did what I asked? I'd be
frustrated and hurt. I think I would feel like he'd be taking advantage
of me and I think that would negatively influence his friendships in the
future.


> Also, how do you define unpleasant? I have found that unpleasant can
vary from person to person. My husband likes cleaning the bathroom but I
find it unpleasant. I like cleaning the dishes but my husband
doesn’t. We try to make each other’s lives (and our
kids’ lives) more pleasant by giving each other the room to do
things that we like to do.
> You see cleaning up as unpleasant. If you see it as unpleasant and act
as though it is unpleasant, then he will get the idea that it is
unpleasant. Why would he want to do something that his mom advertises as
being unpleasant?
> Connie

I see. Thanks!


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

odiniella

Thank you Joyce!
And thank you Lyla! I appreciate your sharing these thoughts and
insights with me!



--- In [email protected], "lylaw" <lylaw@...> wrote:
>
>
> >>>>>>>>
> Would he be enabling laziness in you if he helped? Or would it feel
> like he cared about what he liked and didn't like and cared about you
> being happy?
>
> How would you feel if he were thinking "If I help her with x task,
> I'll make her lazy."
>
> For one thing, it means he's standing back watching you, judging you,
> and has an agenda for who he wants you to be. Like he shaping you
> rather than being your partner in life.
>
> We build relationships by being attentive to the other's needs and not
> letting scripts get in between us.
>
> Joyce>>>>>
>
>
> also, that perspective of enabling laziness is predicated on the
assumption that humans, by nature, are inherently lazy, and that if
given the opportunity would not want to do anything they didn’t
absolutely have to do. this just isn’t true!
>
> lyla









[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

odiniella

Thank you, Alex, for these ideas and thank you for the links.

--- In [email protected], BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
<polykowholsteins@...> wrote:
>
> I think you should not overthink ,  specially in terms of
"bargaining chip".



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Schuyler

I wanted to point out a couple of things. First, if brazen is saying "hang on"
then your child may go beyond your initial boundaries much more than you
expected. "Hang on" in my interpretation is simply wait a moment. No is also not
a brazen thing, it's a response to a yes or no question. If you ask a question
you need to be prepared for a range of answers and not simply the one that you
are hoping for.


Given your statement that he is getting quite brazen I expect that you believe
that respect comes from running a tight ship. And that when your son tells you
to wait a minute or not right now or no, even, that he is undermining your
authority and no longer respecting you. I think if respecting your authority is
the goal of your parenting unschooling is unlikely to be an easy approach for
you. However if you can see that his feeling more comfortable with telling you
not right now, wait a minute, or no, even, is a part of him seeing you as a
person who respects him. Not his authority, but who he is and how he is
exploring the world. I think his respect for you is more likely to grow in an
environment where he is being respected than one where he is expected to respect
your authority. If he comes to respect you for you that will last a good deal
longer than a disciplined respect for you authority ever would.


Secondly, he was doing a really cool thing. He was doing a study in physics and
material science and teamwork. It was a totally applied science moment. Which
you describe almost dismissively: "When I went outside I found the street full
of tomato skins, tools, scraps of cardboard, all kinds of evidence of their good
time." Two boys were working in concert to solve a problem and you wrote it off
as them just playing around. You also took the shine off of your appreciation by
watching their idea and admonishing them to clean up: "after I watched their
success and reminded him to clean up when done." If you diminished his feelings
of pleasure over what he and his friend did by calling him home to clean up what
you said would only take two minutes to clean, it may make it less likely that
he is willing to try his hand at similar experiments. By raining on his parade,
by taking that joyful eureka moment that he and his friend were celebrating and
making it about cleaning up tomato skins and cardboard you may have dampened his
willingness to jump into something that may make a mess. Messes shouldn't be the
criteria which someone uses to decide what they want to do for the day or the
moment.


Schuyler





________________________________
From: odiniella <hgaimari@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tuesday, 10 May, 2011 1:21:04
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Question about compliance


Since putting away our school curricula, our home has really changed
nicely, but yesterday my ds (11) made a comment that has become a bit
more common than I'm comfortable with and I'd like very much to be able
to fend off any trouble before it starts. I'm finding myself
negotiating with my son more and more these days. I'm trying to stop
and really think about the requests/demands I'm expecting, but my
concern is this habit of putting off what needs to be done with apparent
disregard for respecting others. I don't think it's conscious, I think
he's just living in the moment. However, I've seen this attitude take
on a bit more courage now that I'm not taking on the position of
controlling his time by making him do things like school work and house
chores. He's getting quite brazen about telling me no or "hang on"
(which is his nice way of saying "no"). A recent example:


He and a friend were testing designs for an upcoming egg drop contest
at the local homeschool science fair this week. They used some tomatoes
I gave them for the project. Being soft and vulnerable, they thought
that was a great idea and had lots of fun testing different ideas. They
found one they think will work well, and ran off the park to play after
I watched their success and reminded him to clean up when done. When I
went outside I found the street full of tomato skins, tools, scraps of
cardboard, all kinds of evidence of their good time. I called ds to ask
him to please come home and clean it and he refused. Just refused. He
explained he was having fun with his friend and I reminded him this
would take less than two minutes and he could go back to the park, but
it was totally uncool to leave the neighborhood looking like this. He
did come back but immediately started arguing with me. I can understand
he wants to know why, although we'll have to talk about arguing in
general and how that's going to backfire with friends and future
employers, etc. It's not a matter of forgetting (I'm like that too, I
know how that works), it's a matter of refusing when it's pointed out.

Ideas?

Thanks,

Helen


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Schuyler

I think your brother's approach is a pretty traditional one. It's an approach in
which the parent believes that the world is an uncaring, unfeeling place that
will be harsh on children who have been coddled. What would it take for him to
hang up their jackets for them? What would it take to be the caring, loving
parent, to create a warm and responsive and loving home? Why would you choose to
make your home a harsh and punitive place in order to get someone to hang up
their jacket?

Schuyler




________________________________
From: Francine <gryphlets@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tuesday, 10 May, 2011 1:49:02
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Question about compliance

Depending on what it is, I know my brother (who has dealt with older kids, mine
are young yet) would do things like hang their jackets up outside or leave them
were they were because they would get wet. Then in the morning he would send
them off with his old old sweatshirts which they didn't like (ok, they were
going off to school, but could work for other things like going anywhere). It
was pretty quick they learned to put their jackets and such away so they had
them in the morning. I know it doesn't help with the tomato experiment though.

Basically they need to learn that their are consequences to their behavior.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Francine

He actually did that for several months and after getting no response he gave
them fair warning that he did not appreciate it. He is also military so that
likely explains a lot. And believe it or not, those kids have thanked him
several times for his way of discipling them. He never laid a hand on them or
raised his voice and he may have been harsh at times, but they learned a lot.
He also never treated them as one of his military "subjects". They have a
father who they found never cared for them and my brother did care and it was a
hard thing for all of them for a bit. It also says a lot when the daughter
chooses to have my brother and not her dad walk her down the aisle and the son
names his first born son after my brother and not his dad. Their dad did not
show that he cared. He let them do anything they wanted.

So I guess my point is this. How you do things all depends on what works for
you and what works for your kids. Some kids crave the discipline. Some more
than others. Finding out what works for you and your child takes work and not
everyone is likely to agree with your style. I know many who think I am too
loose with my kids and others who think I am to hard, but the way we run things
is what works for us. We make adjustments as needed. It's hard to say that
only one way will work all the time, in every situation, for every person.


Francine




________________________________
From: Schuyler <s.waynforth@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tue, May 10, 2011 4:00:06 AM
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Question about compliance


I think your brother's approach is a pretty traditional one. It's an approach in

which the parent believes that the world is an uncaring, unfeeling place that
will be harsh on children who have been coddled. What would it take for him to
hang up their jackets for them? What would it take to be the caring, loving
parent, to create a warm and responsive and loving home? Why would you choose to

make your home a harsh and punitive place in order to get someone to hang up
their jacket?

Schuyler

________________________________
From: Francine <gryphlets@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tuesday, 10 May, 2011 1:49:02
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Question about compliance

Depending on what it is, I know my brother (who has dealt with older kids, mine
are young yet) would do things like hang their jackets up outside or leave them
were they were because they would get wet. Then in the morning he would send
them off with his old old sweatshirts which they didn't like (ok, they were
going off to school, but could work for other things like going anywhere). It
was pretty quick they learned to put their jackets and such away so they had
them in the morning. I know it doesn't help with the tomato experiment though.

Basically they need to learn that their are consequences to their behavior.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Debra Rossing

> I think I would feel like he'd be taking advantage of me and I think that would negatively influence his friendships in the future.

Of course, this assumes that his relationships with friends are/will be the same as his relationship with you. Odds are good, they're not. Are your relationships with friends the same as with your son? Probably not. If you asked a friend for help on something and they said No or I can do that tomorrow but not now, would you think they're taking advantage of you or would you think "oh, they must have something else they're involved in today"? As has been noted, there's still a lot of baggage (on both sides) in this situation. You have expectations based on how you were raised - that's about average for most people. He has learned that mom controls the situation. As a human being, he doesn't like being controlled (I don't know many people who do, though there probably are some). He's seeing a little bit of daylight - mom's backing off the control...or at least it looks like mom's backing off the control. Is it real? Is it an illusion? Is mom going to revert to controlling again? He's checking to see if you're REALLY backing off or if you're just waiting to pull the leash tight again.

It sounds like you're seeing it as me vs. him or my way vs. his way. If you can wrap your head around the idea that it's the two of you on the same 'side' even though you each have different priorities, that will help. Consider how you would handle the situation with a partner or good friend. Would you -expect- them to stop whatever they're doing to do what you want them to do right away - or would you give them leeway to finish what they're doing and then remind them, help them, with whatever it is? Our household, adult and child alike, is a partnership predicated on the basis that we are all doing our best and we each want the best for all (all for one, one for all). It takes time, though, it's not something that changes overnight "okay, I'm going to stop making rules and forcing him to do things so he should be grateful and thus do the things I ask him to do. Plus, it's "good for him" or he'll never have friends and never have a job..." Doesn't work that way. That is still YOUR priority and YOUR expectations.

Deb R



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joyce Fetteroll

On May 9, 2011, at 8:49 PM, Francine wrote:

> Depending on what it is, I know my brother (who has dealt with older
> kids, mine
> are young yet) would do things like hang their jackets up outside or
> leave them
> were they were because they would get wet. Then in the morning he
> would send
> them off with his old old sweatshirts which they didn't like (ok,
> they were
> going off to school, but could work for other things like going
> anywhere). It
> was pretty quick they learned to put their jackets and such away so
> they had
> them in the morning

If your husband didn't lift a finger around the house because he
wanted to teach you that it was your responsibility to cook and clean
and take care of the kids, would you feel closer to him? Would you
have a better marriage?

What if he saw something of yours outside and let it get rained on to
teach you how to take care of your things? Would you feel thankful
that he valued you demonstrating his idea of responsibility more than
he valued your feelings about your things?

There's a pervasive attitude in society that it's our job as parents
to fix kids, change the natural slothful, mean, irresponsible parts of
their natures, teach them how to be decent people.

But think about how it would be to live with someone who was focused
on changing who you were in ways that you hadn't agreed to. It
wouldn't matter whether you thought his ideas had some merit or not.
It would be the fact that you needed to change now, on his schedule,
in the ways he insisted were right, and you needed to set aside
whatever your needs, wants and desires were to conform to his agenda
for you.

One of the problems is that people think that it's normal for teens to
act surly, disrespectful, distant and rebellious. So it doesn't occur
to them that by years of overriding who the kids' are for who the
parents want them to be, that they've created teens who reflect back
the disrespect they've felt for years and the feeling that the parents
don't care about them, only care about who the parents want them to be.

Instead of trying to change someone, respect and value who they are
right now. Trust that they are being good people and they will be
better people as they get older. People flourish and want to be the
best they can when they're respected, trusted and valued. Rather than
changing them, be the change. Help them with better ways to meet their
needs.

Joyce





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Kelly Lovejoy

-----Original Message-----
From: Francine <gryphlets@...>
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Question about compliance


It's hard to say that
only one way will work all the time, in every situation, for every person.

-=-=-=-=-


Kindness works. All the time. In every situation. For every person.



~Kelly

Kelly Lovejoy
"There is no single effort more radical in its potential for saving the world than a transformation of the way we raise our children." Marianne Williamson






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

plaidpanties666

"odiniella" <hgaimari@...> wrote:
>It's not a matter of forgetting (I'm like that too, I
> know how that works), it's a matter of refusing when it's pointed out.
*************

It's a matter of him having a different set of priorities. His most important "job" is learning - and play is how kids learn, so it means Playing! He's not being a brat, a messy sidewalk isn't as important to him right now and that's okay.

>>I reminded him this
> would take less than two minutes

The same thing could be applied to you. It would have taken a couple minutes to clean up - how long did you spend fussing and arguing? It's Not worth it because the results will be more fussing and arguing rather than more peaceful, supportive relationships.

Next time try to get in on the scene when things are wrapping up so you can say "hey help me tidy this up before you run off". That's a much more likely setup to actually get help - before he's started doing something else.

---Meredith

NCMama

"It was pretty quick they learned to put their jackets and such away so they had them in the morning. I know it doesn't help with the tomato experiment though. Basically they need to learn that their are consequences to their behavior."

I cringe when I read things like this. People saying, "If your daughter doesn't put her bike away, leave it out - it will rust. That's a consequence of not taking care of her things." Ugh. It's a natural consequence if the daughter doesn't have a caring parent. It's a natural consequence if she's alone in the world. Do you want your kids to feel alone, like there's no one who has their back?

=-=How you do things all depends on what works for
you and what works for your kids. Some kids crave the discipline. Some more
than others. Finding out what works for you and your child takes work and not
everyone is likely to agree with your style...<snip> It's hard to say that
only one way will work all the time, in every situation, for every person.=-=

This list isn't to share whatever works (and I seriously question how well something "works" if it will damage relationships); this list is a radical unschooling discussion list. I can go a million places on the web and get information and advice about how kids "crave" discipline. That is NOT how I'm raising my kids, and NOT what I come to this list for. Please don't share mainstream advice here; it's not why people join this list.

My kids don't crave - because they are full of love & connection & understanding & compassion. They are full with a parent who will put their bike away, or hang their jackets lovingly, or put away their books or put the game case in a place it won't get stepped on. *I* care about my kids' things, because I care about my kids.

Caren

BRIAN POLIKOWSKY

""Depending on what it is, I know my brother (who has dealt with older kids, mine
are young yet) would do things like hang their jackets up outside or leave them
were they were because they would get wet. Then in the morning he would send
them off with his old old sweatshirts which they didn't like (ok, they were
going off to school, but could work for other things like going anywhere). It
was pretty quick they learned to put their jackets and such away so they had
them in the morning. I know it doesn't help with the tomato experiment though.

Basically they need to learn that their are consequences to their behavior.""


WOW! That is pretty mean towards a person and kids are people too.
Would your brother do that to his wife??
How would she feel towards him if he did?

In my home we do things for each other all the time.
I have waken up in the middle of the night when a storm was brewing to go bring in
my husbands boots inside or he would have wet boots in the morning to do chores.
I could just stay in my warm bed and shrugg it off and think :"hey he should have known better, he will learn this time".
But I lovingly do it for him, even at 2 in the morning,  and for my kids and you know what? They do it for me.
My 5 year old does it for her brother, her brother does it for  me,  We all do it for each other.
If I run out of gas I do not get scolded by my hubby because of it. He lovingly comes and rescues me.
He can just say it to me:" Well now you will learn to check if you have enough gas".
How do you I would feel towards him?

Alex Polikowsky

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

otherstar

From: odiniella
Sent: Monday, May 09, 2011 11:26 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: Question about compliance

>>>I think you're right on the mark here with control. It's not something I want but is something I grew up with and so I think I can be blind to it.<<<

I grew up with it too. Even though I am an adult, I still have family members that try to mold me into who they want me to be. It doesn't feel good when somebody calls me and tells me that I need to get out more because my brain is rotting by staying home with my kids. I was told I need to participate more in society because I am so smart, blah, blah, blah. I was told that I should take classes or get a job or something, which totally dismisses that I DO have a job teaching an online class at a university. It totally dismisses my participation on these lists. It hurts like crazy to have the people that you love completely dismiss what is important to you.

>>>How would I feel if my son never did what I asked? I'd be frustrated and hurt. I think I would feel like he'd be taking advantage of me and I think that would negatively influence his friendships in the future.<<<<

Here is a related question. Why did you have kids in the first place? When I was trying to figure out unschooling, I had to answer that question first. I had kids because I LOVE them. I have always loved kids. I did not have kids out of a sense of duty to family or the world. A lot of people grow up and have kids because that is what they are supposed to do. If you have kids because that is what you are supposed to do, it can sometimes be hard to put aside all of the "supposed to do's".

Another related question is: Would you still feel frustrated and hurt if he was mentally or physically incapable of doing what you asked? If he was confined to wheel chair, would you still be frustrated and hurt? Would you feel like he was taking advantage of you then?

Why would him not doing what you asked negatively influence his friendships in the future? Are you going to go around telling his friends that he doesn't listen to his mom? I don't always listen to my friends or family. I am actually very selective about who I listen to because not everybody understands me or my priority to be a mom first. Should I listen to the people that are telling me that I need to get out more and get away from my kids? Maybe I don't value that relationship as much as the relationship that I have with my kids. All relationships are not equal. My relationship with my husband is not equal to the relationship that I have with my siblings or my children. They are all different. Whether or not I choose to listen to somebody largely depends on how much I trust that person and whether or not I think that person will stand up for me.

Connie




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

otherstar

From: Francine
Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2011 5:56 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Question about compliance


>>>He actually did that for several months and after getting no response he gave them fair warning that he did not appreciate it. He is also military so that likely explains a lot. And believe it or not, those kids have thanked him several times for his way of discipling them. He never laid a hand on them or raised his voice and he may have been harsh at times, but they learned a lot.<<<

I don't think the lesson in this is to be harsh or mean. When I read this, I thought that the kids were craving connection with a caring adult. If all the kids knew was uninvolved, uncaring, no discipline, then it is very likely that they will thank somebody that actually takes the time to pay attention to them. Negative attention is better than no attention. If a parent is actively involved and loving and caring, there really isn't a need for harsh lessons or discipline.

Connie

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

BRIAN POLIKOWSKY

"So I guess my point is this. How you do things all depends on what works for
you and what works for your kids. Some kids crave the discipline. Some more
than others. Finding out what works for you and your child takes work and not
everyone is likely to agree with your style. I know many who think I am too
loose with my kids and others who think I am to hard, but the way we run things
is what works for us. We make adjustments as needed. It's hard to say that
only one way will work all the time, in every situation, for every person.  ""
 
So those were mostly neglected kids that were not your brother's own kids?
and they were not unschooled children from a loving and present family ?
it seem like you equate discipline with punishments.
I dare say those kids loved him because they felt he was there for them and he
cared.
But in a loving and present relationship  there is not need to create  any kind
of punishments  to teach your children to be better.
Sure everyone is different and need different things and have different needs.
 Jan Hunt says something like children behave as well as they are treated.
http://naturalchild.org/jan_hunt/goldenrule.html
I see that in my children. The more loving and thoughtful I am towards them , the
more they are towards me and each other.There is trust between us .
 
http://sandradodd.com/parentingpeacefully
 
I specially like the audio file in the bottom of that page.


Alex Polikowsky



Alex Polikowsky

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

otherstar

From: Francine
Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2011 5:56 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Question about compliance

>>>Some kids crave the discipline.<<<

I was thinking about this and I don't think kids crave discipline as much as they crave love and attention. For some kids, the only way to get attention is through discipline. When I was growing up, if you were doing good and everything was okay, you were largely ignored. If you screwed up or got in trouble, then you got lots of attention. Some could see that as craving discipline when it is actually a craving for ANY kind of attention. It is a craving for belonging and love and acceptance.

Connie

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

otherstar

From: Francine
Sent: Monday, May 09, 2011 7:49 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Question about compliance

>>>Also, one thing may be to think about your tone when talking with him. I know my kids are more receptive with certain tones than others when talking with them. I even make sure they know that I notice their deeds and how much I appreciate it while they are doing stuff and when they are done. It makes them want to cooperate more.<<<

This sounds manipulative. You are deliberately being sweet with the intent to manipulate your children into getting them to do what you want them to do. You are praising them with the sole intent of getting them to cooperate and do what you want them to do. I am of the opinion that is always good to watch your tone. It feels good to be nice to others so why would communicating with my children be any different?

I do think it is good to show genuine appreciation but it is good to think about why you are showing appreciation. Are you showing appreciation with the intent to get them to cooperate more? Would you still show appreciation if you knew that they might never cooperate?

Connie

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

plaidpanties666

Francine <gryphlets@...> wrote:
>
> Depending on what it is, I know my brother (who has dealt with older kids, mine
> are young yet) would do things like hang their jackets up outside or leave them
> were they were because they would get wet. Then in the morning he would send
> them off with his old old sweatshirts which they didn't like


The trouble with setting up these kinds of "consequences" is that what's learned isn't always what's being taught. Rather, kids will learn from what is being modelled - which is unkindness and disregard for others' needs, especially when those others aren't as powerful as you are.

> Basically they need to learn that their are consequences to their behavior.
************

When I was wrapping my mind around unschooling, it helped me to sort of "red flag" the words "kids need to learn" in my mind. Children are Wired to learn. Learning is something they do effortlessly. Rather than thinking about what they "need" to learn, it goes a long way to look at the world from their point of view as much as you can, and get a sense of what they Are learning.

Kids "get" the idea of cause and effect - its something toddlers explore in detail so its relatively safe to assume that any child over 4 has a good handle on the idea of "consequences". The consequences of making a mess is that there's a mess. One of the common consequence of mom making a biiiiig deal about a mess is that kids avoid dealing with messess - who wants to put up with all that hullaballoo? Better sneak off when she's distracted.

>>The more I "push" and have a negative tone, the more
> push back and fighting I get.

Tada! That's a great example of cause and effect. Part of deschooling for parents, somewhat ironically, is re-learning what real life conseqences are. We get a fed a lot of theory about what parenting Should do, but much of that theory doesn't look at real world effects of that theory. One of the advantages of easing in to unschooling is that you get to see the real life effects of changing your behavior. The less you "push" the less your kids push back - hooray!

---Meredith

plaidpanties666

Francine <gryphlets@...> wrote:
>And believe it or not, those kids have thanked him
> several times for his way of discipling them.

"Discipline" from someone who is also being kind and care *is* substantially better than neglect, for sure, but unschooling goes quite a bit farther than that. There's something Even Better than kind-hearted punishment, and it starts from a realization that the kindness is what works, not the punishment. It isn't kind to leave children to flounder around on their own with no information, no help in the world! And it is totally possible and beneficial to be helpful and kind in the moment rather than "being cruel to be kind".

---Meredith

angie young

<If your husband didn't lift a finger around the house because he
wanted to teach you that it was your responsibility to cook and clean
and take care of the kids, would you feel closer to him? Would you
have a better marriage?>

Ok here is my thoughts about all of this since I'm still very new to the ways of unschooling. Yes, I do think it would be disrespectful if we saw our kids or our husband's stuff out in the rain and just left it there to teach them a lesson. But here is my question. How do we teach them that they have to pick up there stuff and not leave it out everywhere if we do it for them? And how are they going to do as an adult unless they marry someone who is just going to do everything for them? Like the above quote, this husband would expect his wife to do everything around the house because it is her "job". Well if we always just do everything for our kids, are they not going to grow up and think this is how their spouse is supposed to do for them, just bend over backward and do everything for them.

I'm not wanting to start any arguments here. I'm just wanting to understand the difference between how to teach are kids what they need to do as responsible human beings and just doing everything for them.

Angie Y.








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