beginning unschooling later in childhood
odiniella
One of the Sandra Dodd links about strewing brought me to this quote:
The Simpsons bit (spoofing) the Bill on Capital Hill (flag burners have
too much freedom) led to the still ongoing discussions of flag burning
as freedom of speech, which led to discussions on political protest
which led to the ever popular discussions on civil disobedience, which
led to the reading of "Civil Disobedience" by Thoreau, which led to
"Walden."(http://sandradodd.com/strew/simpsons
<http://sandradodd.com/strew/simpsons> )
In our home, these "conversations" would last about 40 seconds and would
consist of one child asking me or their dad and both listening to the
answer then moving on. How do your kids learn to answer questions for
themselves and develop this kind of open-ended exploration? My
daughter is 13, my son is 11 and I wonder if I missed the window of
opportunity to teach them this kind of skill.
Helen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
The Simpsons bit (spoofing) the Bill on Capital Hill (flag burners have
too much freedom) led to the still ongoing discussions of flag burning
as freedom of speech, which led to discussions on political protest
which led to the ever popular discussions on civil disobedience, which
led to the reading of "Civil Disobedience" by Thoreau, which led to
"Walden."(http://sandradodd.com/strew/simpsons
<http://sandradodd.com/strew/simpsons> )
In our home, these "conversations" would last about 40 seconds and would
consist of one child asking me or their dad and both listening to the
answer then moving on. How do your kids learn to answer questions for
themselves and develop this kind of open-ended exploration? My
daughter is 13, my son is 11 and I wonder if I missed the window of
opportunity to teach them this kind of skill.
Helen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Tina Tarbutton
I think you might be looking too hard for the connections they make.
My now 11 year old was homeschooled until about 7 y/o (a very relaxed
homeschooling with lots of unschooling philosophy thrown in, before I knew a
word for it) then spent 1 year and 1 semester in school, followed by about 9
months of more relaxed homeschooling before we switched to unschooling about
2 years ago (litterally burning all of the workbooks and curriculum and
making a big issue out of no more school at all). So in his case going by
the general idea of 1 month for every year in school we would have needed
about 5 months of deschooling. In reality for us it was more like 10
months, so we've been deeply ingrained in unschooling for about a year.
Three months ago was the first time I really experienced the quick one
subject to another to another kind of conversation, it doesn't happen all
that often in our house. However I see him making connections every day.
Here's an example that centers around his two main interests, gaming and
weapons. He loves "shoot-em-up" video games and he loves nerf weapons.
From there he got interested in real guns, he doesn't have any interest in
shooting anything living, but he does love the bb gun he has at my dads and
lately he's wanted to shoot something a little more powerful and possibly a
handgun.
From his interest in real guns he began searching out information about
guns, which lead to us buying both a gun almanac (which has all of the guns
produced that year) and an ipod app that allows him to look up various guns
and get info.
From there we started talking about 2 different things (probably more, but
we'll focus on these), mechanics of guns and the history of guns
The history of guns has lead us to touch a little bit on the history of the
world as we were discussing certain guns, why there are more guns made in X
year as opposed to Y year (a war was happening in X, but not in Y).
The mechanics of guns has led us to discussing caliber and gunpowder and the
difference between shot guns and rifles and hand guns. Why does a larger
caliber gun have more recoil, etc. etc. etc.
A game set in the old west that's using modern guns started a discussion on
historical accuracy and historical fiction vs. non-fiction.
The lack of recoil in some of the more powerful guns in his games got us
talking about the reality or lack of reality in fantasy games.
To me, him playing the games and enjoying them is just important if not more
important than any "book learning" that comes out of the games. I know he's
making connections, however those connections did not excite him until a
full year after we had burned the notion that learning comes from
curriculum. Before that he would avoid those connections, if I made the
mistake of pointing them out he would stop playing the game until he could
forget that he was "learning" from it.
Another big thing I want to point out is where you said "I wonder if I
missed the window of opportunity to teach them this kind of skill." I
highly recommend you read this page http://sandradodd.com/teaching/ on
Sandra Dodd's website. One of the big things that helped me with
deschooling was getting past the notion of teaching.
That's the long answer to your question.
The short answer is, you haven't even begun deschooling (let alone
unschooling) if you're still holding onto a curriculum. You can't begin to
swim unless you let go of, and move away from, the side of the pool. You
probably will not see any of these connections until you are deeply
committed to unschooling and have moved through the deschooling process.
Tina
My now 11 year old was homeschooled until about 7 y/o (a very relaxed
homeschooling with lots of unschooling philosophy thrown in, before I knew a
word for it) then spent 1 year and 1 semester in school, followed by about 9
months of more relaxed homeschooling before we switched to unschooling about
2 years ago (litterally burning all of the workbooks and curriculum and
making a big issue out of no more school at all). So in his case going by
the general idea of 1 month for every year in school we would have needed
about 5 months of deschooling. In reality for us it was more like 10
months, so we've been deeply ingrained in unschooling for about a year.
Three months ago was the first time I really experienced the quick one
subject to another to another kind of conversation, it doesn't happen all
that often in our house. However I see him making connections every day.
Here's an example that centers around his two main interests, gaming and
weapons. He loves "shoot-em-up" video games and he loves nerf weapons.
From there he got interested in real guns, he doesn't have any interest in
shooting anything living, but he does love the bb gun he has at my dads and
lately he's wanted to shoot something a little more powerful and possibly a
handgun.
From his interest in real guns he began searching out information about
guns, which lead to us buying both a gun almanac (which has all of the guns
produced that year) and an ipod app that allows him to look up various guns
and get info.
From there we started talking about 2 different things (probably more, but
we'll focus on these), mechanics of guns and the history of guns
The history of guns has lead us to touch a little bit on the history of the
world as we were discussing certain guns, why there are more guns made in X
year as opposed to Y year (a war was happening in X, but not in Y).
The mechanics of guns has led us to discussing caliber and gunpowder and the
difference between shot guns and rifles and hand guns. Why does a larger
caliber gun have more recoil, etc. etc. etc.
A game set in the old west that's using modern guns started a discussion on
historical accuracy and historical fiction vs. non-fiction.
The lack of recoil in some of the more powerful guns in his games got us
talking about the reality or lack of reality in fantasy games.
To me, him playing the games and enjoying them is just important if not more
important than any "book learning" that comes out of the games. I know he's
making connections, however those connections did not excite him until a
full year after we had burned the notion that learning comes from
curriculum. Before that he would avoid those connections, if I made the
mistake of pointing them out he would stop playing the game until he could
forget that he was "learning" from it.
Another big thing I want to point out is where you said "I wonder if I
missed the window of opportunity to teach them this kind of skill." I
highly recommend you read this page http://sandradodd.com/teaching/ on
Sandra Dodd's website. One of the big things that helped me with
deschooling was getting past the notion of teaching.
That's the long answer to your question.
The short answer is, you haven't even begun deschooling (let alone
unschooling) if you're still holding onto a curriculum. You can't begin to
swim unless you let go of, and move away from, the side of the pool. You
probably will not see any of these connections until you are deeply
committed to unschooling and have moved through the deschooling process.
Tina
On Wed, Mar 2, 2011 at 8:24 PM, odiniella <hgaimari@...> wrote:
>
> In our home, these "conversations" would last about 40 seconds and would
> consist of one child asking me or their dad and both listening to the
> answer then moving on. How do your kids learn to answer questions for
> themselves and develop this kind of open-ended exploration?
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Nicole Willoughby
In our home, these "conversations" would last about 40 seconds and would
consist of one child asking me or their dad and both listening to the
answer then moving on. How do your kids learn to answer questions for
themselves and develop this kind of open-ended exploration? My
daughter is 13, my son is 11 and I wonder if I missed the window of
opportunity to teach them this kind of skill.>>>>
I don't think you have necessarily lost a window of opportunity but this is one reason why desschooling is so important. Long story but my girls chose school this year. When they come home we will deschool a while even though they have only been in school a year.
Ok now I'll try to get to my point in a somewhat succinct fashion. :) Think in school terms a minute. You get programmed to study what you are told, make an educated guess on what will be on the test and remember that stuff at least long enough to make a good grade on the test. If you are really lucky then once in a blue moon something that interests you will coincide with something to remember for "the test". You go to school 8 hours a day to study what you are told is important, come home to do homework. Unless you skip say eating or sleep there just is'nt time to explore your own interests.
As far as teaching the skill ...for my kids at least it was more a natural modeling sort of thing. Many times a 40 second answer is enough to satisfy them and thats ok. Or sometimes the 40 second answer satisfies for now and later something else leads them back to that subject and they end up exploring more.
My personal favorite is when they ask me a question I don't know the answer to. Well, I don't know but we can find out. Then we could call a friend who is knowledgeable about the subject or go to trusty old google. Sometimes 5 minutes later we have our answer and they are off to something else and sometimes 2 hours later we are still exploring.
You have to remove all the tests, and expectations spoken and unspoken for a long time .
When they are convinced that they can explore just to explore and that it won't change next week it will start to evolve.
Nicole
consist of one child asking me or their dad and both listening to the
answer then moving on. How do your kids learn to answer questions for
themselves and develop this kind of open-ended exploration? My
daughter is 13, my son is 11 and I wonder if I missed the window of
opportunity to teach them this kind of skill.>>>>
I don't think you have necessarily lost a window of opportunity but this is one reason why desschooling is so important. Long story but my girls chose school this year. When they come home we will deschool a while even though they have only been in school a year.
Ok now I'll try to get to my point in a somewhat succinct fashion. :) Think in school terms a minute. You get programmed to study what you are told, make an educated guess on what will be on the test and remember that stuff at least long enough to make a good grade on the test. If you are really lucky then once in a blue moon something that interests you will coincide with something to remember for "the test". You go to school 8 hours a day to study what you are told is important, come home to do homework. Unless you skip say eating or sleep there just is'nt time to explore your own interests.
As far as teaching the skill ...for my kids at least it was more a natural modeling sort of thing. Many times a 40 second answer is enough to satisfy them and thats ok. Or sometimes the 40 second answer satisfies for now and later something else leads them back to that subject and they end up exploring more.
My personal favorite is when they ask me a question I don't know the answer to. Well, I don't know but we can find out. Then we could call a friend who is knowledgeable about the subject or go to trusty old google. Sometimes 5 minutes later we have our answer and they are off to something else and sometimes 2 hours later we are still exploring.
You have to remove all the tests, and expectations spoken and unspoken for a long time .
When they are convinced that they can explore just to explore and that it won't change next week it will start to evolve.
Nicole
--- On Wed, 3/2/11, odiniella <hgaimari@...> wrote:
From: odiniella <hgaimari@...>
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] beginning unschooling later in childhood
To: [email protected]
Date: Wednesday, March 2, 2011, 7:24 PM
One of the Sandra Dodd links about strewing brought me to this quote:
The Simpsons bit (spoofing) the Bill on Capital Hill (flag burners have
too much freedom) led to the still ongoing discussions of flag burning
as freedom of speech, which led to discussions on political protest
which led to the ever popular discussions on civil disobedience, which
led to the reading of "Civil Disobedience" by Thoreau, which led to
"Walden."(http://sandradodd.com/strew/simpsons
<http://sandradodd.com/strew/simpsons> )
In our home, these "conversations" would last about 40 seconds and would
consist of one child asking me or their dad and both listening to the
answer then moving on. How do your kids learn to answer questions for
themselves and develop this kind of open-ended exploration? My
daughter is 13, my son is 11 and I wonder if I missed the window of
opportunity to teach them this kind of skill.
Helen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
lylaw
The short answer is, you haven't even begun deschooling (let alone
unschooling) if you're still holding onto a curriculum. You can't begin to
swim unless you let go of, and move away from, the side of the pool. You
probably will not see any of these connections until you are deeply
committed to unschooling and have moved through the deschooling process>>>>>
this is absolutely true! and I also wanted to say that it took much longer than one month per year of school for one of my children (ironically, the younger one!) and a bit shorter for the older one – every child and every child’s relationship with learning and experience/damage from school is different.
lyla
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
unschooling) if you're still holding onto a curriculum. You can't begin to
swim unless you let go of, and move away from, the side of the pool. You
probably will not see any of these connections until you are deeply
committed to unschooling and have moved through the deschooling process>>>>>
this is absolutely true! and I also wanted to say that it took much longer than one month per year of school for one of my children (ironically, the younger one!) and a bit shorter for the older one – every child and every child’s relationship with learning and experience/damage from school is different.
lyla
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
odiniella
--- In [email protected], Tina Tarbutton
<tina.tarbutton@...> wrote:
dolls for the first time in years (we bought new ones because she had
given hers away). That led to an interest in fashion and eventually
anime art, I think. However, I can see now that I really didn't give her
time to deschool, just decompress a bit. I really never knew the
difference until now.
But...I can't help but worry that I'd let her get to her 20's without
any kinds of job skills (okay... I think that's one of my biggest
concerns here and I hope that isn't a terrible thing to admit). It's
not that I have a specific expectation of what her adult life will look
like, it's that she has adult cousins with no real ambition, no skills,
no prospects and they aren't happy with the way things are turning out.
My husband, otoh, loves his career - he's doing exactly what he wants.
THAT'S what I want for them and I don't know how that happens when a
person doesn't know what they want to do. I don't know anyone who does
what they wanted to do without the benefit of professionals organizing
their education. I do, however, know people who spent their teen years
focusing on having fun only to find themselves in their 40's with very
few options and not as happy as they expected being the grasshopper now
that summer is over.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
<tina.tarbutton@...> wrote:
>I think you might be right.
> I think you might be looking too hard for the connections they make.
> Another big thing I want to point out is where you said "I wonder if IThank you!
> missed the window of opportunity to teach them this kind of skill." I
> highly recommend you read this page http://sandradodd.com/teaching/ on
> Sandra Dodd's website. One of the big things that helped me with
> deschooling was getting past the notion of teaching.
> The short answer is, you haven't even begun deschooling (let alonebegin to
> unschooling) if you're still holding onto a curriculum. You can't
> swim unless you let go of, and move away from, the side of the pool.You
> probably will not see any of these connections until you are deeplyprocess.
> committed to unschooling and have moved through the deschooling
>I thought we had deschooled when bringing my daughter home. She played
> Tina
dolls for the first time in years (we bought new ones because she had
given hers away). That led to an interest in fashion and eventually
anime art, I think. However, I can see now that I really didn't give her
time to deschool, just decompress a bit. I really never knew the
difference until now.
But...I can't help but worry that I'd let her get to her 20's without
any kinds of job skills (okay... I think that's one of my biggest
concerns here and I hope that isn't a terrible thing to admit). It's
not that I have a specific expectation of what her adult life will look
like, it's that she has adult cousins with no real ambition, no skills,
no prospects and they aren't happy with the way things are turning out.
My husband, otoh, loves his career - he's doing exactly what he wants.
THAT'S what I want for them and I don't know how that happens when a
person doesn't know what they want to do. I don't know anyone who does
what they wanted to do without the benefit of professionals organizing
their education. I do, however, know people who spent their teen years
focusing on having fun only to find themselves in their 40's with very
few options and not as happy as they expected being the grasshopper now
that summer is over.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
odiniella
--- In [email protected], "lylaw" <lylaw@...> wrote:
(ironically, the younger one!) and a bit shorter for the older one
â" every child and every childâs relationship with learning
and experience/damage from school is different.
daughter to deschool but I can see now that I really didn't. Is this age
an okay age to drop all expectations? I do worry that my kids will be
somewhat intellectually ignorant because they will not have been exposed
to something "everyone else" was, if that makes sense.
Helen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>begin to
> The short answer is, you haven't even begun deschooling (let alone
> unschooling) if you're still holding onto a curriculum. You can't
> swim unless you let go of, and move away from, the side of the pool.You
> probably will not see any of these connections until you are deeplyprocess>>>>>
> committed to unschooling and have moved through the deschooling
>longer than one month per year of school for one of my children
> this is absolutely true! and I also wanted to say that it took much
(ironically, the younger one!) and a bit shorter for the older one
â" every child and every childâs relationship with learning
and experience/damage from school is different.
>Like I had just mentioned in my last post, I *thought* I had allowed my
> lyla
daughter to deschool but I can see now that I really didn't. Is this age
an okay age to drop all expectations? I do worry that my kids will be
somewhat intellectually ignorant because they will not have been exposed
to something "everyone else" was, if that makes sense.
Helen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
lylaw
>>>But...I can't help but worry that I'd let her get to her 20's withoutany kinds of job skills (okay... I think that's one of my biggest
concerns here and I hope that isn't a terrible thing to admit). It's
not that I have a specific expectation of what her adult life will look
like, it's that she has adult cousins with no real ambition, no skills,
no prospects and they aren't happy with the way things are turning out.
I’d be willing to wager they weren’t unschoolers though! so clearly, people can go through school as they are “supposed to” and still “turn out” that way. there are no guarantees in life. but if you decide that freedom to learn and time and space to discover one’s passions, etc. are valuable, then there’s no better way than unschooling to move toward those values.
>>> do, however, know people who spent their teen yearsfocusing on having fun only to find themselves in their 40's with very
few options and not as happy as they expected being the grasshopper now
that summer is over.>>
what did “focusing on only having fun” look like? was that in their spare time after school? unschooling is not about “focusing on having fun” it’s about living one’s life and learning is a natural side effect of living. really. how much have you read about unschooling – I mean really delved in? life is not separated out into “learning” vs. “having fun” when you unschool. life CAN be fun. it sounds like your husband loves his life and work. how did he get to that place?
lyla
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
odiniella
--- In [email protected], "lylaw" <lylaw@...> wrote:
parties
side effect of living. really. how much have you read about
unschooling â" I mean really delved in? life is not separated out
into "learning" vs. "having fun" when you
unschool. life CAN be fun. it sounds like your husband loves his life
and work. how did he get to that place?
if I'm clogging the list with silly questions. I'm learning that I
really know precious little about unschooling.
My husband's interests were supported by his parents. He liked looking
under rocks and catching salamanders and brought home buckets of
crayfish. They shared his joy and said that's fine as long as the
bucket stays outside. That kind of thing. But he enjoyed school very
much, and expects his kids would too, which is why I've never really
pursued this. It's really way out of his comfort level. Only, I'm
finding that school at home just isn't working for my kids much more
than school down town did. So although I'm frightfully ignorant, I'm
finding myself looking into something that appears like it might just be
the best idea for my kids.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> what did "focusing on only having fun" look like? wasthat in their spare time after school?<
parties
>unschooling is not about "focusing on having fun"it's about living one's life and learning is a natural
side effect of living. really. how much have you read about
unschooling â" I mean really delved in? life is not separated out
into "learning" vs. "having fun" when you
unschool. life CAN be fun. it sounds like your husband loves his life
and work. how did he get to that place?
> lylaThank you for being patient with me. I do appreciate it and I'm sorry
>
if I'm clogging the list with silly questions. I'm learning that I
really know precious little about unschooling.
My husband's interests were supported by his parents. He liked looking
under rocks and catching salamanders and brought home buckets of
crayfish. They shared his joy and said that's fine as long as the
bucket stays outside. That kind of thing. But he enjoyed school very
much, and expects his kids would too, which is why I've never really
pursued this. It's really way out of his comfort level. Only, I'm
finding that school at home just isn't working for my kids much more
than school down town did. So although I'm frightfully ignorant, I'm
finding myself looking into something that appears like it might just be
the best idea for my kids.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Tina Tarbutton
On Thu, Mar 3, 2011 at 1:22 AM, odiniella <hgaimari@...> wrote:
for Draven's interests wasn't important. We are seriously poor people, but
after I really looked at where our money was going I realized there was so
much more I could give him to support his interests. We also made lots of
lists, and right before holidays and birthdays we'd double check them
and prioritize and then mention things on the list to family and friends.
We found ways to get what he wanted without giving up food. =) His
interests are different than your daughters, but I still have some ideas.
If your daughter is into fashion, she may not be interested in goodwill (not
much current fashion there really), however look into resale or consignment
shops near you. Are you near a college town? I know when I lived in a
college town there were always advertisements for upscale resale/consignment
shops where they had name brand stuff much cheaper. They would also give
you store credit on any name brand clothing you brought in. If you're not
near a college town check out the one closest to you. While you're in that
town see if they have a fashion department at the college, find out if they
do any fashion shows.
Is she into hair and makeup at all? Find out if there is a local
cosmetology school (or college that has a cosmetology department), they
always need people to practice on and the prices are super cheap. She can
play with different hairstyles and colors and such and it won't take you
broke. Depending on the school they may even do make overs. When my
younger sister was in cosmetology school at the local community college
there was one homeschooled pre-teen girl that got something done every week
(hair, makeup, pedicure, manicure, something), all of the students knew her
and would give her tips and such for her to try at home.
Is she interested in making clothes? Get a used sewing machine and let her
pick out a ton of fabric. Don't force her to do it the "right way" or take
lessons, just let her play and see what happens. This is a place where lots
of parents slip up. They want their child to do something "the right way"
and completely turn them off of doing it at all. Is the cost of the fabric
that she practices on worth more than her joy?
term uninterrupted freedom to find their ambition. They probably spent
years in school being told what to learn, how to learn, what they were
allowed to be interested in, etc. Don't worry about tomorrow, seriously
don't.
I heard a quote this past week and immediately looked at my partner and said
"We need that on our fridge."
"Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about
itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own."
It is from the bible, but that doesn't really matter. To me that quote is
what unschooling is about. Don't worry about what will happen tomorrow, a
year from now, when they're adults, etc. Just take care of today. Make her
happy today. Show her abundance today, now, right this second (if she's
awake). Making her unhappy today, just so she might possibly have a happier
future is not what unschooling is about.
So what if she doesn't know what she wants to do at 14, 15, 16 even 19 or
20. Are you counting the days until you send her off to live on her own?
If you are, then possibly unschooling isn't for you. She will find her way
in her own time, not yours, not anyone elses but her own. The only way you
can speed that up is to give her that uninterrupted freedom to explore the
options. Support every single interest she has to the fullest possible
extent.
Tina
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>How can you support that interest now? I used to think that finding money
>
> That led to an interest in fashion and eventually
> anime art, I think.
>
for Draven's interests wasn't important. We are seriously poor people, but
after I really looked at where our money was going I realized there was so
much more I could give him to support his interests. We also made lots of
lists, and right before holidays and birthdays we'd double check them
and prioritize and then mention things on the list to family and friends.
We found ways to get what he wanted without giving up food. =) His
interests are different than your daughters, but I still have some ideas.
If your daughter is into fashion, she may not be interested in goodwill (not
much current fashion there really), however look into resale or consignment
shops near you. Are you near a college town? I know when I lived in a
college town there were always advertisements for upscale resale/consignment
shops where they had name brand stuff much cheaper. They would also give
you store credit on any name brand clothing you brought in. If you're not
near a college town check out the one closest to you. While you're in that
town see if they have a fashion department at the college, find out if they
do any fashion shows.
Is she into hair and makeup at all? Find out if there is a local
cosmetology school (or college that has a cosmetology department), they
always need people to practice on and the prices are super cheap. She can
play with different hairstyles and colors and such and it won't take you
broke. Depending on the school they may even do make overs. When my
younger sister was in cosmetology school at the local community college
there was one homeschooled pre-teen girl that got something done every week
(hair, makeup, pedicure, manicure, something), all of the students knew her
and would give her tips and such for her to try at home.
Is she interested in making clothes? Get a used sewing machine and let her
pick out a ton of fabric. Don't force her to do it the "right way" or take
lessons, just let her play and see what happens. This is a place where lots
of parents slip up. They want their child to do something "the right way"
and completely turn them off of doing it at all. Is the cost of the fabric
that she practices on worth more than her joy?
>They were probably never given the freedom, the long
> But...I can't help but worry that I'd let her get to her 20's without
> any kinds of job skills (okay... I think that's one of my biggest
> concerns here and I hope that isn't a terrible thing to admit). It's
> not that I have a specific expectation of what her adult life will look
> like, it's that she has adult cousins with no real ambition, no skills,
> no prospects and they aren't happy with the way things are turning out.
>
term uninterrupted freedom to find their ambition. They probably spent
years in school being told what to learn, how to learn, what they were
allowed to be interested in, etc. Don't worry about tomorrow, seriously
don't.
I heard a quote this past week and immediately looked at my partner and said
"We need that on our fridge."
"Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about
itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own."
It is from the bible, but that doesn't really matter. To me that quote is
what unschooling is about. Don't worry about what will happen tomorrow, a
year from now, when they're adults, etc. Just take care of today. Make her
happy today. Show her abundance today, now, right this second (if she's
awake). Making her unhappy today, just so she might possibly have a happier
future is not what unschooling is about.
So what if she doesn't know what she wants to do at 14, 15, 16 even 19 or
20. Are you counting the days until you send her off to live on her own?
If you are, then possibly unschooling isn't for you. She will find her way
in her own time, not yours, not anyone elses but her own. The only way you
can speed that up is to give her that uninterrupted freedom to explore the
options. Support every single interest she has to the fullest possible
extent.
Tina
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Schuyler
That's a moment in a life that is probably one with lots of conversations. In
our home lots and lots of conversations occur. Some are 40 seconds of seeking
information and some are over a couple of days. For example, we watched
Oklahoma! the other day and, as always, liked Ado Annie, and talking about her
very unusual voice. I hadn't seen Gloria Grahame in anything else that I
remembered so the next day I spent some time finding her on imdb and wikipedia
and youtube. Simon and Linnaea and David and I all spent time watching some of
the videos and discussing some of the stuff about her life. Ado Annie sounds
particularly funny as she had just had plastic surgery and still had the
stitches in. And in other movies she would put cotton wads under her upper lip
because she thought her facial profile was more attractive that way, so she
sounds odd in some dialogue scenes. She also slept with her 13 year old stepson
who she later married. There were lots of things to talk about from a little
curiosity about Oklahoma!
That was me kind of perusing the rest of the world and not Simon or Linnaea. But
they were interested in the information. They find lots of stuff from other
stuff and ideas and share it with me or with David or with each other. But they
also will stop when their initial need for information is sated. They aren't
doing it on their own always. And they certainly didn't start with an
expectation that they do it on their own. When Simon was little and liked a
certain video game I would look for other, similar, video games for us to play
together. When Linnaea was little and wanted a certain story read to her, I
would look for other similar stories to branch into if she wanted. Although the
Baby Bebe Bird book was the only book that she liked for what felt like an age
in the moment and retrospectively just feels like a very sweet memory.
It is easy to read stories of other people's lives and think that your life with
your children is nothing as good as what they have. It is much better to work to
see what is good within your own life and with your own children and see if you
can expand upon that. Don't work to mimic the life of someone else, work to
engage your daughter and your son with things that they enjoy and things that
they like.
Schuyler
________________________________
From: odiniella <hgaimari@...>
In our home, these "conversations" would last about 40 seconds and would
consist of one child asking me or their dad and both listening to the
answer then moving on. How do your kids learn to answer questions for
themselves and develop this kind of open-ended exploration? My
daughter is 13, my son is 11 and I wonder if I missed the window of
opportunity to teach them this kind of skill.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
our home lots and lots of conversations occur. Some are 40 seconds of seeking
information and some are over a couple of days. For example, we watched
Oklahoma! the other day and, as always, liked Ado Annie, and talking about her
very unusual voice. I hadn't seen Gloria Grahame in anything else that I
remembered so the next day I spent some time finding her on imdb and wikipedia
and youtube. Simon and Linnaea and David and I all spent time watching some of
the videos and discussing some of the stuff about her life. Ado Annie sounds
particularly funny as she had just had plastic surgery and still had the
stitches in. And in other movies she would put cotton wads under her upper lip
because she thought her facial profile was more attractive that way, so she
sounds odd in some dialogue scenes. She also slept with her 13 year old stepson
who she later married. There were lots of things to talk about from a little
curiosity about Oklahoma!
That was me kind of perusing the rest of the world and not Simon or Linnaea. But
they were interested in the information. They find lots of stuff from other
stuff and ideas and share it with me or with David or with each other. But they
also will stop when their initial need for information is sated. They aren't
doing it on their own always. And they certainly didn't start with an
expectation that they do it on their own. When Simon was little and liked a
certain video game I would look for other, similar, video games for us to play
together. When Linnaea was little and wanted a certain story read to her, I
would look for other similar stories to branch into if she wanted. Although the
Baby Bebe Bird book was the only book that she liked for what felt like an age
in the moment and retrospectively just feels like a very sweet memory.
It is easy to read stories of other people's lives and think that your life with
your children is nothing as good as what they have. It is much better to work to
see what is good within your own life and with your own children and see if you
can expand upon that. Don't work to mimic the life of someone else, work to
engage your daughter and your son with things that they enjoy and things that
they like.
Schuyler
________________________________
From: odiniella <hgaimari@...>
In our home, these "conversations" would last about 40 seconds and would
consist of one child asking me or their dad and both listening to the
answer then moving on. How do your kids learn to answer questions for
themselves and develop this kind of open-ended exploration? My
daughter is 13, my son is 11 and I wonder if I missed the window of
opportunity to teach them this kind of skill.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Schuyler
She played
dolls for the first time in years (we bought new ones because she had
given hers away). That led to an interest in fashion and eventually
anime art, I think.
-----------
That's what learning looks like. You follow connections from one thing to
another. That is absolutely what you are striving to have when you speak with
envy about a conversation stemming from the Simpsons. Notice those moments in
letters writ large in your brain. Notice those moments instead o underscoring
the ones where you feel she isn't doing anything.
----------------
But...I can't help but worry that I'd let her get to her 20's without
any kinds of job skills (okay... I think that's one of my biggest
concerns here and I hope that isn't a terrible thing to admit).
-----------------
It's a very common thing to be worried about your children. It would be more
terrible to admit that you had no concerns regarding your children. If she was
in school would you not be worried? If she was in school and struggling to meet
the requirements or unhappy, or happy but you were reading the unemployment
statistics? There aren't any guarantees. I can't assure you that unschooling
will give your daughter the skills that she requires to become a happy and
successfully employed adult. School can't do that either. School can guarantee
that they will fail students because that's how a bell curve works.
One of my epiphanal moments was when I realised that school had never been
tested. It was still at the theoretical phase of an idea. The point of school
isn't necessarily education. The point of school is a pretty muddled thing of
childcare and child welfare and needing more people in the workforce when child
labour laws changed.
-----------------
It's
not that I have a specific expectation of what her adult life will look
like, it's that she has adult cousins with no real ambition, no skills,
no prospects and they aren't happy with the way things are turning out.
------------
What did they do from 13 to young adulthood? Were they in school? Did school
form them so that their lives weren't fraught with worry and a lack of
direction? No, they are now going through their own period of deschooling, but
with the horrible guilt of knowing that they aren't achieving at expected
levels. I was like that. I'm guessing there are lots of people who were like
that. They'd been moved forward day after day by external forces and when that
framework disappeared they could no longer see the point or the aim.
----------------
I do, however, know people who spent their teen years
focusing on having fun only to find themselves in their 40's with very
few options and not as happy as they expected being the grasshopper now
that summer is over.
------------
I love the ant and the grasshopper fable. It's so wrong. Ants die in the fall.
Huge numbers. Grasshoppers live about a year (although much of that is in a
dormant phase) and ants live on average about 90 days. And they don't ever get
to breed. They live in a eusocial system with a queen who came ready to produce
babies. Grasshoppers get to have babies.
Teens to 40 is a long time. Are you sure that it was what they did in their
teens that so totally defined what they were doing in their 40s? Maybe there
were other choices along the way that you aren't noticing.
Schuyler
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
dolls for the first time in years (we bought new ones because she had
given hers away). That led to an interest in fashion and eventually
anime art, I think.
-----------
That's what learning looks like. You follow connections from one thing to
another. That is absolutely what you are striving to have when you speak with
envy about a conversation stemming from the Simpsons. Notice those moments in
letters writ large in your brain. Notice those moments instead o underscoring
the ones where you feel she isn't doing anything.
----------------
But...I can't help but worry that I'd let her get to her 20's without
any kinds of job skills (okay... I think that's one of my biggest
concerns here and I hope that isn't a terrible thing to admit).
-----------------
It's a very common thing to be worried about your children. It would be more
terrible to admit that you had no concerns regarding your children. If she was
in school would you not be worried? If she was in school and struggling to meet
the requirements or unhappy, or happy but you were reading the unemployment
statistics? There aren't any guarantees. I can't assure you that unschooling
will give your daughter the skills that she requires to become a happy and
successfully employed adult. School can't do that either. School can guarantee
that they will fail students because that's how a bell curve works.
One of my epiphanal moments was when I realised that school had never been
tested. It was still at the theoretical phase of an idea. The point of school
isn't necessarily education. The point of school is a pretty muddled thing of
childcare and child welfare and needing more people in the workforce when child
labour laws changed.
-----------------
It's
not that I have a specific expectation of what her adult life will look
like, it's that she has adult cousins with no real ambition, no skills,
no prospects and they aren't happy with the way things are turning out.
------------
What did they do from 13 to young adulthood? Were they in school? Did school
form them so that their lives weren't fraught with worry and a lack of
direction? No, they are now going through their own period of deschooling, but
with the horrible guilt of knowing that they aren't achieving at expected
levels. I was like that. I'm guessing there are lots of people who were like
that. They'd been moved forward day after day by external forces and when that
framework disappeared they could no longer see the point or the aim.
----------------
I do, however, know people who spent their teen years
focusing on having fun only to find themselves in their 40's with very
few options and not as happy as they expected being the grasshopper now
that summer is over.
------------
I love the ant and the grasshopper fable. It's so wrong. Ants die in the fall.
Huge numbers. Grasshoppers live about a year (although much of that is in a
dormant phase) and ants live on average about 90 days. And they don't ever get
to breed. They live in a eusocial system with a queen who came ready to produce
babies. Grasshoppers get to have babies.
Teens to 40 is a long time. Are you sure that it was what they did in their
teens that so totally defined what they were doing in their 40s? Maybe there
were other choices along the way that you aren't noticing.
Schuyler
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce Fetteroll
On Mar 2, 2011, at 8:24 PM, odiniella wrote:
the parents not trying to change who they are but giving them the
environment to explore who they are.
By the kids feeling free to ask whatever questions they have and get
the responses *they're* seeking. Not necessarily the facts but a
feeling the parents are responding to what the kids need and not what
the parents want the kids to have. In other words questions don't
become teaching moments or open the door to some agenda the parents
have for the kids.
I'm not saying you do that, but you asked how it happens. And how it
happens is the freedom to allow *whatever* will unfold to happen and
to not try to direct it in any particular direction. For the kids the
experience should feel like asking knowledgeable friends who don't
have an emotional investment in the kids learning anything. The
conversations can go wherever interest takes them.
You'll notice in the conversation the kids weren't talking about math
or science or doing any writing or picking up after themselves. If
every extraordinary moment in unschoolers lives were written out it
would seemingly set the bar so high for subsequent unschoolers that no
one would do it ;-)
That's who those particular kids are. Or were at that moment. I don't
think Kat and I ever had a conversation like that. (She's 19.) Ours
tend to be more along the lines of why people do what they do. We talk
about writing and drawing. And 90's metal music. When she was 11-14ish
she talked about slugbugs, these she and her friend made up, and the
others and the world they interacted with. It perhaps sounds creative
written like that but it really looked like nothing that was leading
to any kind of career -- except maybe as a comics artist for 11 yos!
Every unschooling life has *moments* that look extraordinary.
Sometimes those moments look like spontaneous fun learning of
something the kids would have been taught in school. Sometimes those
moment require a mom to take off school glasses and see the
extraordinary in the playing the kids are doing. But mostly it's
gaining trust that what doesn't look at all like extraordinary
actually is wonderful things happening.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>By the parents not expecting them to be other than who they are. By
> How do your kids learn to answer questions for
> themselves and develop this kind of open-ended exploration?
the parents not trying to change who they are but giving them the
environment to explore who they are.
By the kids feeling free to ask whatever questions they have and get
the responses *they're* seeking. Not necessarily the facts but a
feeling the parents are responding to what the kids need and not what
the parents want the kids to have. In other words questions don't
become teaching moments or open the door to some agenda the parents
have for the kids.
I'm not saying you do that, but you asked how it happens. And how it
happens is the freedom to allow *whatever* will unfold to happen and
to not try to direct it in any particular direction. For the kids the
experience should feel like asking knowledgeable friends who don't
have an emotional investment in the kids learning anything. The
conversations can go wherever interest takes them.
You'll notice in the conversation the kids weren't talking about math
or science or doing any writing or picking up after themselves. If
every extraordinary moment in unschoolers lives were written out it
would seemingly set the bar so high for subsequent unschoolers that no
one would do it ;-)
That's who those particular kids are. Or were at that moment. I don't
think Kat and I ever had a conversation like that. (She's 19.) Ours
tend to be more along the lines of why people do what they do. We talk
about writing and drawing. And 90's metal music. When she was 11-14ish
she talked about slugbugs, these she and her friend made up, and the
others and the world they interacted with. It perhaps sounds creative
written like that but it really looked like nothing that was leading
to any kind of career -- except maybe as a comics artist for 11 yos!
Every unschooling life has *moments* that look extraordinary.
Sometimes those moments look like spontaneous fun learning of
something the kids would have been taught in school. Sometimes those
moment require a mom to take off school glasses and see the
extraordinary in the playing the kids are doing. But mostly it's
gaining trust that what doesn't look at all like extraordinary
actually is wonderful things happening.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce Fetteroll
On Mar 3, 2011, at 1:58 AM, odiniella wrote:
schooled kids aren't partying because that's what they'd do if given
all the free time in the world. They're partying to decompress from
the pressures of school and often the pressures of parental
expectations.
It's not that unschooled kids don't like parties! (Some do. Some
don't.) But they go to parties for very very different reasons.
Unschooled kids don't have the need to decompress. They do have social
needs though. And for some getting together with a bunch of kids can
fun.
Unschooled kids go to parties, watch TV, play video games, read books,
go shopping for very different reasons than schooled kids do. Once
you've stepped away from school, it's extraordinary how much school
and conventional parenting warps who kids are. Everyone thinks those
kids -- especially teens: surly, slackers, anti-adult world -- are
just how kids are. But it's not true. That's how kids are when they're
under pressure to be who the parents think they could be.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > what did "focusing on only having fun" look like? wasOnce someone steps far away from school, it's much easier to see that
> that in their spare time after school?<
>
> parties
schooled kids aren't partying because that's what they'd do if given
all the free time in the world. They're partying to decompress from
the pressures of school and often the pressures of parental
expectations.
It's not that unschooled kids don't like parties! (Some do. Some
don't.) But they go to parties for very very different reasons.
Unschooled kids don't have the need to decompress. They do have social
needs though. And for some getting together with a bunch of kids can
fun.
Unschooled kids go to parties, watch TV, play video games, read books,
go shopping for very different reasons than schooled kids do. Once
you've stepped away from school, it's extraordinary how much school
and conventional parenting warps who kids are. Everyone thinks those
kids -- especially teens: surly, slackers, anti-adult world -- are
just how kids are. But it's not true. That's how kids are when they're
under pressure to be who the parents think they could be.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
plaidpanties666
"odiniella" <hgaimari@...> wrote:
The other thing, though, depends on this phrase from the initial quote: "still ongoing discussions". In our house, ongoing discussion often take the form of thirty seconds here, a few words, there. My 9yo is very good at pulling together references - so part of our "ongoing discussions" involve "oh, that's like something I read in this story" or "there was a Spongebob episode that mentioned that". The actual conversation or discussion is spread out rather than concentrated, if you see what I mean.
My
What helped was his dad and I being more upfront and transparant about our thinking processes in general. He was used to adults being The Ones Who Know rather than the ones whe think things through or make guesses or flat out flounder around. So it was helpful for him to gradually see more of that - not all at once, but over time becoming more honest about just how often adults Don't have The Answer. That freed him from a need to project a kind of bravado about what he knew and thought. It became okay to explore again.
---Meredith
>> In our home, these "conversations" would last about 40 seconds and wouldPart of that likely relates to How they like to learn. For instance, my 9yo has been unschooled from the start, but she's not much of a talker. If she asks a question, she Wants a short answer and will cut me or her dad off if we go on and on. But if I can point her to a resource that lets her look and touch, she can spend a long time with that resource.
> consist of one child asking me or their dad and both listening to the
> answer then moving on.
The other thing, though, depends on this phrase from the initial quote: "still ongoing discussions". In our house, ongoing discussion often take the form of thirty seconds here, a few words, there. My 9yo is very good at pulling together references - so part of our "ongoing discussions" involve "oh, that's like something I read in this story" or "there was a Spongebob episode that mentioned that". The actual conversation or discussion is spread out rather than concentrated, if you see what I mean.
My
> daughter is 13, my son is 11 and I wonder if I missed the window ofMy 17yo is a stepson and has been through the mill - homeschool, a few years living with his bio mom and going to public school - before rejoining our unschooling home at 13. At first he was still very tied up in the sort of Q&A paradigm of school. He didn't want thoughts or suppositions, he wanted "The Answer" and was veeeerrrry suspicious of any attempts to engage him beyond that. Oh, oh, someone's trying to teach me something.
> opportunity to teach them this kind of skill.
What helped was his dad and I being more upfront and transparant about our thinking processes in general. He was used to adults being The Ones Who Know rather than the ones whe think things through or make guesses or flat out flounder around. So it was helpful for him to gradually see more of that - not all at once, but over time becoming more honest about just how often adults Don't have The Answer. That freed him from a need to project a kind of bravado about what he knew and thought. It became okay to explore again.
---Meredith