odiniella

Hi. I'm brand new to this forum and kinda, almost, sorta new
to the idea of unschooling. I wonder if I can run my idea past you to
see if I'm understanding this right, and to ask a question. But I
should warn you, I'm annoyingly long winded and frightfully boring. I
just thought I'd put that upfront.

I say kinda, almost, sorta new because I started unschooling by default.
Well, I started homeschooling by default and that turned into
unschooling. I don't know that I can really take much from that
experience because it involves a son with Asperger's who is freakishly
brilliant in some ways and unfathomably defiant in others and it turned
out that for the sake of our family's sanity, I stopped "requiring"
anything from him. Oh, and he has a frightful case of extreme anxiety
so it's not like I just let my kids run feral (well, not always, okay,
but only when I can too and we're all having fun). Eventually his
anxiety and depression were more than we could care for at home and he's
now in a therapeutic boarding school and doing really well.

But he's an anomaly. What he lacks in social skills and graces he makes
up for in scientific knowledge. Apparently he's quite the computer wiz
too. Good gravy where did he learn it all? I know those of you who
haven't nodded off to sleep yet are thinking, Yep, he learned it because
he had the time to explore it. And that's probably so. But where I get
concerned is that

A) he's not typical. No kid gets his panties in a wad
at age 10 because his DK book on physiology doesn't explain the Kreb's
Cycle in enough detail.

And B) he has no idea about anything other than
science and computers. He doesn't care and now he's in a school where
he will learn basics like what a World War is and there are 7
continents and the Middle East and Africa and the Americas used to be
personal playthings of European monarchs.

But I have two more now and here's my idea that I wanted to run past you
all to see if I have this right. My youngest son came home last year.
It was a very stressful year for my oldest (not only were all his
siblings home now, but his grandfather was dying and that was very hard
for him to process).

We watched tv and read books and hung out at home
(not lots of field trips because of behaviors from oldest either out in
public or left home alone). It turned out that youngest son liked WWII
stuff so we got books from the library. Well, not so much WWII but the
tanks and airplanes. Okay, the tanks and airplanes were cool, but not
nearly as cool as the stuff they made on Mythbusters! We had a very
Mythbuster's year last year and learned from oldest where they got
sloppy with "real" scientific methodology and youngest got inspired with
making stuff. After watching these kinds of shows like Mythbusters and
Junkyard Wars and the like, and watching youtube videos, he announced to
me the other day he knows what kind of engineer he wants to be -
mechanical engineer.

So my idea is that I point him in that direction,
right? How I do that, I don't know. Until this year, I thought
"engineer" and saw Dilbert in my head.


I expect that as he gets older we'll explore what colleges have good
programs and what their requirements are and he'll be motivated to show
them he is a good applicant. Is that right? That's my idea. Do I have
that right? What am I missing? How do I help him get the foundation
he'll need to apply to college? I only ask now because I can't conceive
how two or three years in high school, when he's thinking about it, will
be enough.


And now my question. My daughter (she's 13, 8th grade) is really frustrating me. Oh no, not HER. She's fabulous!
I love her to pieces! She's sweet and kind and thoughtful and creative.
But she has NO IDEA what she wants to do with her time. We are going
through a classical education curriculum now (mostly for husband's piece
of mind, but also as a spring board for me) and she tells me she doesn't
like unschooling. She does NOT like having no structure or routine.
She likes to be organized and efficient thankyouverymuch. But when I
say it's time to start language arts and here's what we'll be working on
with composition...she gets silly and distracting. Or she won't come to
the table. Or she won't know what to write about. In other words, she says she likes a traditional school
experience but her behavior tells me the opposite.

I don't know how to help her because she doesn't know what she wants.
She likes to read, but she doesn't want to read all day. She likes to
decorate cakes so we signed her up for a cake decorating class. That
was fun, now she's done. This week she's painting her bedroom. Next
week what will she do? She walks around the house saying "What can we
do today? Can we go somewhere?" I don't know if she wants to go to the
mall and hang out because that's what teens do in her books or if she
likes to look at the fashions or she wants to spend money (sorry babe,
wrong mom for that).

I've suggested taking clothes from the thrift
stores and modify them but she's not interested. She likes to draw but
says she's NOT an artist, she's a doodler. Well, she's got a pretty
sweet little style if you ask me, even if it is typical anime, she's
picked it up well and it's lovely.

She's just not focused and doesn't know what to do with her time. She
also has some anxiety issues (living in the shadow of an unpredictable
older brother isn't for the weak) and so doesn't want to do things
alone. Most kids her age go into high school so
she talks about going into high school because she's lonely. Only, I
think the academics would eat her up and, I'm afraid, be a blow to her
self-esteem (which is just NOW starting to thrive after taking a
crushing from having such difficulties in school less than three years
ago). I really like our classical education curriculum. Yeah, clearly, this is the best curriculum....for ME.
I love it. My kids? meh

So I don't mind tweaking it to keep kids happy and husband comfortable
until eventually we see that the kids are learning even if we don't sit
at the table and do history flash cards at 10:30. But I do worry that
the youngest won't get a foundation that will support him in what he
wants and I especially worry that my daughter won't find her passion.
What if she's like me and she has no passion? What if she's happy to be
entertained but doesn't know how to entertain herself? Goodness, I'm 42
and I don't know what I want to be when I grow up. Egads, what a lot of
pressure to put on a young woman! So, um, if you've gotten this
far...help?
Helen, exhausted


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

plaidpanties666

"odiniella" <hgaimari@...> wrote:
>> Well, I started homeschooling by default and that turned into
> unschooling.

Just to start things out, this post doesn't sound much like unschooling, its closer to "eclectic homeschooling". I let it through anyway, though, because there are some good basic questions about unschooling and how kids learn.

> other day he knows what kind of engineer he wants to be -
> mechanical engineer.
>
> So my idea is that I point him in that direction,
> right?

Wrong. You keep answering his questions when you can, finding him resources, helping him explore the world, and don't worry about him becomming an engineer. Really, if he's interested, he'll do all the pointing. This might help give you some ideas of how unschoolers get into college:

http://sandradodd.com/teen/college

>I can't conceive
> how two or three years in high school, when he's thinking about it, will
> be enough.

That's because schools make learning look like a long, laborious process. There's a nice essay on this next page, about half way down (Cameron) about what it looks like when an unschooler learns math from, essentially, scratch in the late teens:
http://whyunschool.info/?page=inaction

> We are going
> through a classical education curriculum now (mostly for husband's piece
> of mind, but also as a spring board for me) and she tells me she doesn't
> like unschooling.

Keep in mind that you haven't been unschooling with her, so if you want to unschool, you'll need to start with deschooling, taking a break from anything schooly for awhile.

But I suspect the bigger issue is that you don't know how to relate to her. Your young son likes things that look schooly and educational, so you haven't had to stretch your thinking at all. You'll have to stretch a bit to engage with your daughter.

Do more with her. Go on day trips. Plan things if she likes plans and schedules. Go window shopping, go to fashion shows, get out and see some music or go dancing. Do fun things. Do touristy things for the heck of it. Rent a bunch of movies and watch them together.

If she likes to doodle, would she like a programming platform like Scratch that allows her to doodle and then modify them, even animate them? (its free, google it!) Or maybe she'd like some design programs or design books. Don't leave it up to her to figure it out, though, engage in plans Do things with her. Try things together. And if she's happier with a schedule, do all of those things on a schedule so she can feel good about it.

Drop the curriculum, though, its getting in the way of both you and her figuring out what really turns her on.

---Meredith

Amanda Daly

Wouldn't it still be considered "unschooling" if the child wanted to use a
curriculum though?

Just curious.....

Amanda

Schuyler

It wouldn't. It would be education with a curriculum. If a child chooses to go
to school, it isn't unschooling, it's a child choosing to go to school.
Unschooling starts, at its most basic, at not schooling. Choice is a big part of
unschooling, but it isn't choice alone that makes it unschooling.


Schuyler





________________________________
From: Amanda Daly <ta2dmom@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Wednesday, 2 March, 2011 19:02:21
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Re: idea and question

Wouldn't it still be considered "unschooling" if the child wanted to use a
curriculum though?

Just curious.....

Amanda



------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joyce Fetteroll

On Mar 2, 2011, at 2:02 PM, Amanda Daly wrote:

> Wouldn't it still be considered "unschooling" if the child wanted to
> use a
> curriculum though?

The unschooling is in why someone's doing something, not what.

A child or a mother who still has part of their head and/or heart
still in school is likely to be choosing or encouraging a curriculum
because it feels familiar and comforting.

A child and mom who have full confidence in learning through free
exploration of interests can use a curriculum without feeling like
they need it to learn.

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

So you have a 13-year-old daughter and younger son at home. And you have all just gone through a very difficult year. Why does any of this need to be sorted out now?

Nance



--- In [email protected], "odiniella" <hgaimari@...> wrote:
>
> Hi. I'm brand new to this forum and kinda, almost, sorta new
> to the idea of unschooling. I wonder if I can run my idea past you to
> see if I'm understanding this right, and to ask a question. But I
> should warn you, I'm annoyingly long winded and frightfully boring. I
> just thought I'd put that upfront.
>
> I say kinda, almost, sorta new because I started unschooling by default.
> Well, I started homeschooling by default and that turned into
> unschooling. I don't know that I can really take much from that
> experience because it involves a son with Asperger's who is freakishly
> brilliant in some ways and unfathomably defiant in others and it turned
> out that for the sake of our family's sanity, I stopped "requiring"
> anything from him. Oh, and he has a frightful case of extreme anxiety
> so it's not like I just let my kids run feral (well, not always, okay,
> but only when I can too and we're all having fun). Eventually his
> anxiety and depression were more than we could care for at home and he's
> now in a therapeutic boarding school and doing really well.
>
> But he's an anomaly. What he lacks in social skills and graces he makes
> up for in scientific knowledge. Apparently he's quite the computer wiz
> too. Good gravy where did he learn it all? I know those of you who
> haven't nodded off to sleep yet are thinking, Yep, he learned it because
> he had the time to explore it. And that's probably so. But where I get
> concerned is that
>
> A) he's not typical. No kid gets his panties in a wad
> at age 10 because his DK book on physiology doesn't explain the Kreb's
> Cycle in enough detail.
>
> And B) he has no idea about anything other than
> science and computers. He doesn't care and now he's in a school where
> he will learn basics like what a World War is and there are 7
> continents and the Middle East and Africa and the Americas used to be
> personal playthings of European monarchs.
>
> But I have two more now and here's my idea that I wanted to run past you
> all to see if I have this right. My youngest son came home last year.
> It was a very stressful year for my oldest (not only were all his
> siblings home now, but his grandfather was dying and that was very hard
> for him to process).
>
> We watched tv and read books and hung out at home
> (not lots of field trips because of behaviors from oldest either out in
> public or left home alone). It turned out that youngest son liked WWII
> stuff so we got books from the library. Well, not so much WWII but the
> tanks and airplanes. Okay, the tanks and airplanes were cool, but not
> nearly as cool as the stuff they made on Mythbusters! We had a very
> Mythbuster's year last year and learned from oldest where they got
> sloppy with "real" scientific methodology and youngest got inspired with
> making stuff. After watching these kinds of shows like Mythbusters and
> Junkyard Wars and the like, and watching youtube videos, he announced to
> me the other day he knows what kind of engineer he wants to be -
> mechanical engineer.
>
> So my idea is that I point him in that direction,
> right? How I do that, I don't know. Until this year, I thought
> "engineer" and saw Dilbert in my head.
>
>
> I expect that as he gets older we'll explore what colleges have good
> programs and what their requirements are and he'll be motivated to show
> them he is a good applicant. Is that right? That's my idea. Do I have
> that right? What am I missing? How do I help him get the foundation
> he'll need to apply to college? I only ask now because I can't conceive
> how two or three years in high school, when he's thinking about it, will
> be enough.
>
>
> And now my question. My daughter (she's 13, 8th grade) is really frustrating me. Oh no, not HER. She's fabulous!
> I love her to pieces! She's sweet and kind and thoughtful and creative.
> But she has NO IDEA what she wants to do with her time. We are going
> through a classical education curriculum now (mostly for husband's piece
> of mind, but also as a spring board for me) and she tells me she doesn't
> like unschooling. She does NOT like having no structure or routine.
> She likes to be organized and efficient thankyouverymuch. But when I
> say it's time to start language arts and here's what we'll be working on
> with composition...she gets silly and distracting. Or she won't come to
> the table. Or she won't know what to write about. In other words, she says she likes a traditional school
> experience but her behavior tells me the opposite.
>
> I don't know how to help her because she doesn't know what she wants.
> She likes to read, but she doesn't want to read all day. She likes to
> decorate cakes so we signed her up for a cake decorating class. That
> was fun, now she's done. This week she's painting her bedroom. Next
> week what will she do? She walks around the house saying "What can we
> do today? Can we go somewhere?" I don't know if she wants to go to the
> mall and hang out because that's what teens do in her books or if she
> likes to look at the fashions or she wants to spend money (sorry babe,
> wrong mom for that).
>
> I've suggested taking clothes from the thrift
> stores and modify them but she's not interested. She likes to draw but
> says she's NOT an artist, she's a doodler. Well, she's got a pretty
> sweet little style if you ask me, even if it is typical anime, she's
> picked it up well and it's lovely.
>
> She's just not focused and doesn't know what to do with her time. She
> also has some anxiety issues (living in the shadow of an unpredictable
> older brother isn't for the weak) and so doesn't want to do things
> alone. Most kids her age go into high school so
> she talks about going into high school because she's lonely. Only, I
> think the academics would eat her up and, I'm afraid, be a blow to her
> self-esteem (which is just NOW starting to thrive after taking a
> crushing from having such difficulties in school less than three years
> ago). I really like our classical education curriculum. Yeah, clearly, this is the best curriculum....for ME.
> I love it. My kids? meh
>
> So I don't mind tweaking it to keep kids happy and husband comfortable
> until eventually we see that the kids are learning even if we don't sit
> at the table and do history flash cards at 10:30. But I do worry that
> the youngest won't get a foundation that will support him in what he
> wants and I especially worry that my daughter won't find her passion.
> What if she's like me and she has no passion? What if she's happy to be
> entertained but doesn't know how to entertain herself? Goodness, I'm 42
> and I don't know what I want to be when I grow up. Egads, what a lot of
> pressure to put on a young woman! So, um, if you've gotten this
> far...help?
> Helen, exhausted
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Joyce Fetteroll

Helen, please do reread and edit -- and reread again and edit again --
before you send.

First, undoubtedly most people clicked your post into the trash.
Meaning you cut off potential people who might have helped.

Second, you've cumulatively used up many many hours of the people on
the list who waded through what you wrote. That time could have been
spent giving you some advice but people do have busy lives.

As you're rereading if you've written something then retracted it or
re-explained it, delete the first explanation. Or skip the retraction.
Please write what you mean the first time so people don't need to wade
through a brain dump.

And it will help you too. If you can organize your thoughts clearly
enough to express them to others, you'll be able to weed out a lot of
what's in your way and see your problems more clearly too.

Being long winded is not an incurable disease ;-) It's something
that's fully in your power to take control of.

So I think the 1st 5 paragraphs aren't even relevant to the question.
He's still in school, right? And you're not asking about him, correct?


> I expect that as he gets older we'll explore what colleges have good
> programs and what their requirements are and he'll be motivated to
> show
> them he is a good applicant.



Engineers (and artists and musicians and historians and writers and
nuclear physicists) are born not made. Kids will pull what they need
in to feed what's already inside of them. *They* will choose the
directions. You provide the environment, means to explore, support,
the partnership.

When kids are already living what they want to use college to explore
further, they don't need to make themselves look like high school
students who are just jumping through the hoops they're told to jump
through.


> She does NOT like having no structure or routine.



Structure doesn't need to be a curriculum. Structure can be a plan for
the day or the week. Some people aren't comfortable with too many
choices. When emotions aren't pulling someone in a particular
direction and the answer to what to do is "Whatever you want," it can
be overwhelming. Especially if it happens every time you come to the
end of something.

Help her by giving her some structure to the day. Make plans. Make
them flexible. Her actions are saying she's not yet ready to handle it
herself, so you do the basics and draw her in.

Joyce

plaidpanties666

Amanda Daly <ta2dmom@...> wrote:
>
> Wouldn't it still be considered "unschooling" if the child wanted to use a
> curriculum though?

It depends to some extent on how you're using the words "curriculum" and "use". Seasoned unschoolers certainly do get language learning programs, or take classes in this or that, and some home schoolers would call that "using a curriculum". In the context of unschooling, that's just muddying the waters, though. One class that someone can pick up and put down at will, even give up on without a backward glance, is a long, long way from what parents will understand by "using a curriculum".

---Meredith

odiniella

*Thank you* for this - all of it. I'm still learning about the philosophy of unschooling I guess, and so I'm glad to see there's much more to it than I thought. I think the perceived safety-net of having a curriculum is what is keeping us from moving forward. She feels she's not doing enough without it and I feel at a loss as to how to provide an alternative, but clearly it's not working so well for us.

I'll check out these links next.

Helen




--- In [email protected], "plaidpanties666" <plaidpanties666@...> wrote:
>
> But I suspect the bigger issue is that you don't know how to relate to her. Your young son likes things that look schooly and educational, so you haven't had to stretch your thinking at all. You'll have to stretch a bit to engage with your daughter.
>
> Do more with her. Go on day trips. Plan things if she likes plans and schedules. Go window shopping, go to fashion shows, get out and see some music or go dancing. Do fun things. Do touristy things for the heck of it. Rent a bunch of movies and watch them together.
>
> If she likes to doodle, would she like a programming platform like Scratch that allows her to doodle and then modify them, even animate them? (its free, google it!) Or maybe she'd like some design programs or design books. Don't leave it up to her to figure it out, though, engage in plans Do things with her. Try things together. And if she's happier with a schedule, do all of those things on a schedule so she can feel good about it.
>
> Drop the curriculum, though, its getting in the way of both you and her figuring out what really turns her on.
>
> ---Meredith
>

odiniella

--- In [email protected], "marbleface@..."
<marbleface@...> wrote:
>
> So you have a 13-year-old daughter and younger son at home. And you
have all just gone through a very difficult year. Why does any of this
need to be sorted out now?
>
> Nance


Next year my daughter will be high school age. She mentions going to
high school because she's lonely and bored at home. I think traditional
school would eat her alive (again) for various reasons. She talks about
it and my husband starts looking at the calendar wondering when to
enroll her into the local public school. I think if she found her days
had purpose she wouldn't feel so lost, and I think if her days had
purpose she would have a much more enjoyable time in general. I want
her to decide what that purpose is, not wait to be told. She has
learned the school skills really well - sit down, keep quiet, wait for
the bell and next instruction. When there is no next instruction she
starts to fret. When there is a next instruction she feels overwhelmed.
It's my desire to give her a different, more effective set of skills
than these.
Helen


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

plaidpanties666

"odiniella" <hgaimari@...> wrote:
> I want
> her to decide what that purpose is, not wait to be told. She has
> learned the school skills really well - sit down, keep quiet, wait for
> the bell and next instruction. When there is no next instruction she
> starts to fret. When there is a next instruction she feels overwhelmed.
****************

That's a really common "result" of school and even home schooling. It can be much harder to transition to unschooling with an older kid because they've learned those skills and learned to believe the reasoning behind them, too.

For now, she needs your help. Not help learning, but help not being bored. There are some ideas about boredom here that might help you on a conceptual level:

http://sandradodd.com/BoredNoMore.html

and a gazillion ideas of things to do or try here:
http://sandradodd.com/strewing

especially:
http://sandradodd.com/strew/deblist

and some "typical unschooling days":
http://sandradodd.com/typical

Since she's asking about school for social reasons, especially look for ways for her to get together with other people - other teens if she wants, but look for clubs and even classes that interest her. Check with your local community colleges to see if they have classes that interest her, for instance (and while you're at it see if any would interest your son). Check with local state parks and museums, too. They could be things the two of you do together, like a canoeing course or something for her for fun like paper making. If she likes anime, go on a tour of local comic book shops and see if they have any clubs or small classes that interest her. Also, there are comic book programs - my 9yo has a fairly simple one that came with some movie or other, so I'm sure you can find others that are cheap and free. (Maybe someone has a link... Alex????)

Be sure to let her know that its okay to do things for the fun of it. She may be getting stressed out by the idea that she's supposed to find a passion or choose a life's work and that's getting in the way of her playing around and figuring out what's interesting right now. Lots of kids get all tangled up in the idea that they Have To Pick Something by the time they're out of high school and that something had better be perfect because that's their life's work - and in reality that's not the case at all. It might help her to meet some people who've changed professions more than once as a way of calming down from the idea that she has to choose something Right Now - it might help you, too! A good place to find people like that are to look in artistic fields, too - go on an art crawl, watch the extras in some animated movies, go to some musical event and chat with people.

It's important, though, to also be sensitive to the fact that you've set her up to believe school is an answer (best of intentions, I know! my 17yo lived through some of my "best intentions"). So if she's really wanting school, look for ways to make that a better experience for her. It doesn't have to "eat her alive" but she'll need a lot of your help and support for that to happen, and maybe some out-of-the-box solutions, too, like going to school part time or doing her homework for her (not "helping her with her homework" but actually doing it) if that's something she thinks will help her focus on the social experience.

With all that, don't forget your younger son! He doesn't have to wait to do some of the things mechanical engineers do - find out what really turns him on and look for some out of the box ways for him to do that Right Now.

---Meredith

Heather

When we started unschooling, my husband & I both read "The Teenage
Liberation Handbook" by Grace Llewellyn.
It was great for both of us to see things from a "not-school perspective".
You &/or your daughter might enjoy reading it.
We found a copy in our local library.

heather
<http://www.amazon.com/Grace-Llewellyn/e/B000APEU3S/ref=ntt_athr_dp_pel_1>

On Wed, Mar 2, 2011 at 5:08 PM, plaidpanties666
<plaidpanties666@...>wrote:

>
>
> "odiniella" <hgaimari@...> wrote:
> > I want
> > her to decide what that purpose is, not wait to be told. She has
> > learned the school skills really well - sit down, keep quiet, wait for
> > the bell and next instruction. When there is no next instruction she
> > starts to fret. When there is a next instruction she feels overwhelmed.
> ****************
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

I don't think it is realistic to expect a 13-year-old to find her purpose. Or to suddenly be comfortable hsing or unschooling after years of schooling.

I also think high school lasts a few years. Next fall is not any sort of deadline other than what you and she make it.

Given everything else going on, including a brother sent away from home, school just doesn't seem like the important stuff right now. It feels like there is a big rush to make big decisions just at the time when everyone could use a lot of time to ease into figuring out what would be best.

Nance


--- In [email protected], "odiniella" <hgaimari@...> wrote:
>
>
> --- In [email protected], "marbleface@"
> <marbleface@> wrote:
> >
> > So you have a 13-year-old daughter and younger son at home. And you
> have all just gone through a very difficult year. Why does any of this
> need to be sorted out now?
> >
> > Nance
>
>
> Next year my daughter will be high school age. She mentions going to
> high school because she's lonely and bored at home. I think traditional
> school would eat her alive (again) for various reasons. She talks about
> it and my husband starts looking at the calendar wondering when to
> enroll her into the local public school. I think if she found her days
> had purpose she wouldn't feel so lost, and I think if her days had
> purpose she would have a much more enjoyable time in general. I want
> her to decide what that purpose is, not wait to be told. She has
> learned the school skills really well - sit down, keep quiet, wait for
> the bell and next instruction. When there is no next instruction she
> starts to fret. When there is a next instruction she feels overwhelmed.
> It's my desire to give her a different, more effective set of skills
> than these.
> Helen
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

odiniella

Thank you for this. I do feel this "big rush" and it's an uncomfortable
weight on me and on her.
Should I be keeping records of things my kids do? I live in CA and
understand I am required to provide 3 hours of education for 180 days.
My oldest could do this standing on his head because he'd read books for
6 hours a day. My daughter, not so much. I can't imagine what she
spends her time doing is "educational."
I'm thinking of this partly for my husband's piece of mind (if he asks
what they're studying in science, for example) and also my daughter's
piece of mind (so she can see she's not wasting her days away).
Helen


--- In [email protected], "marbleface@..."
<marbleface@...> wrote:
>
> I don't think it is realistic to expect a 13-year-old to find her
purpose. Or to suddenly be comfortable hsing or unschooling after years
of schooling.
>
> I also think high school lasts a few years. Next fall is not any sort
of deadline other than what you and she make it.
>
> Given everything else going on, including a brother sent away from
home, school just doesn't seem like the important stuff right now. It
feels like there is a big rush to make big decisions just at the time
when everyone could use a lot of time to ease into figuring out what
would be best.
>
> Nance
>
>
> --- In [email protected], "odiniella" hgaimari@ wrote:
> >
> >
> > --- In [email protected], "marbleface@"
> > <marbleface@> wrote:
> > >
> > > So you have a 13-year-old daughter and younger son at home. And
you
> > have all just gone through a very difficult year. Why does any of
this
> > need to be sorted out now?
> > >
> > > Nance
> >
> >
> > Next year my daughter will be high school age. She mentions going
to
> > high school because she's lonely and bored at home. I think
traditional
> > school would eat her alive (again) for various reasons. She talks
about
> > it and my husband starts looking at the calendar wondering when to
> > enroll her into the local public school. I think if she found her
days
> > had purpose she wouldn't feel so lost, and I think if her days had
> > purpose she would have a much more enjoyable time in general. I
want
> > her to decide what that purpose is, not wait to be told. She has
> > learned the school skills really well - sit down, keep quiet, wait
for
> > the bell and next instruction. When there is no next instruction
she
> > starts to fret. When there is a next instruction she feels
overwhelmed.
> > It's my desire to give her a different, more effective set of skills
> > than these.
> > Helen
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

lylaw

where do you live? if in a city where there are likely a lot of other unschoolers, I’d really encourage you to join local lists, meet others, and help your daughter meet unschooling teens. if you have the resources, and she the interest, consider one of the summercamps for unschoolers – there’s one in tennessee, that someone else probably has a link to, and not back to school camp in oregon and vermont (but might be wait listed already...). also look into finding an unschooling conference, especially one that lots of teens go to. but this would be great for just you too, and on behalf of your younger son as well! my daughter didn’t start unschooling til she was 13 – it doesn’t have to be too late, but it is super important that you really work to “get it” now and quickly! my daughter is almost 16 now and a great spokesperson for unschooling. she’s 5.5 weeks in to her trip to south america with unschool adventures www.unschooladventures.com, and you might check out the leader’s book “college without high school” too, for some peace of mind for all of you. he also runs teen leadership workshops for unschoolers.

lyla


From: odiniella
Sent: Wednesday, March 02, 2011 1:13 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: idea and question


*Thank you* for this - all of it. I'm still learning about the philosophy of unschooling I guess, and so I'm glad to see there's much more to it than I thought. I think the perceived safety-net of having a curriculum is what is keeping us from moving forward. She feels she's not doing enough without it and I feel at a loss as to how to provide an alternative, but clearly it's not working so well for us.

I'll check out these links next.

Helen

--- In mailto:unschoolingbasics%40yahoogroups.com, "plaidpanties666" <plaidpanties666@...> wrote:
>
> But I suspect the bigger issue is that you don't know how to relate to her. Your young son likes things that look schooly and educational, so you haven't had to stretch your thinking at all. You'll have to stretch a bit to engage with your daughter.
>
> Do more with her. Go on day trips. Plan things if she likes plans and schedules. Go window shopping, go to fashion shows, get out and see some music or go dancing. Do fun things. Do touristy things for the heck of it. Rent a bunch of movies and watch them together.
>
> If she likes to doodle, would she like a programming platform like Scratch that allows her to doodle and then modify them, even animate them? (its free, google it!) Or maybe she'd like some design programs or design books. Don't leave it up to her to figure it out, though, engage in plans Do things with her. Try things together. And if she's happier with a schedule, do all of those things on a schedule so she can feel good about it.
>
> Drop the curriculum, though, its getting in the way of both you and her figuring out what really turns her on.
>
> ---Meredith
>






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Schuyler

It may help you to get in touch with a local to California group:
http://www.hsc.org/home.php is a one with unschoolers on the board.
http://www.hsc.org/legal101.php has specific information that you can read.


Looking at what someone else is doing and dismissing it as not educational is a
pretty telling thing. It means that you are defining educational in a fairly
precise way, if not in an accurate way. Think about how you learn, do you learn
by reading, by doing, by watching, by listening, by discussing, by exploring, by
tasting, by smelling? Do you use lots and lots of tools to access learning? Or
do you only learn by sitting with a book for 6 hours and coming away with
competence?

I learn lots and lots of ways. Failing is one. I've recently figured out how to
make a bra without a pattern. I went through a few old t-shirts in the process.
Each time I failed I came closer to succeeding. I'm taking apart a pair of
trousers I made with the learning from that failure being about the importance
of measuring Linnaea when she's not trying to do something else. I'm learning
how to play ukulele. That takes a fair bit of listening and watching (thank
goodness for the internet!) and working to replicate what I'm hearing and
seeing. Reading about it wouldn't work at all. Sometimes I learn passively,
something happens, I see something, I hear something and I carry it along with
me like a stick in a stream and don't really pay attention to it until it can be
keyed into something else.


There is an interesting article about alzheimers that I read the other day. It's
about the default network in the brain. The default network is where you go when
you aren't doing a task. http://www.dana.org/news/cerebrum/detail.aspx?id=29194
is the article. It's a fascinating in layman's terms piece that discusses what
may be going on when you are just sitting and not visibly doing anything that
could be counted and measured and weighed as learning.


Schuyler




________________________________

Thank you for this. I do feel this "big rush" and it's an uncomfortable
weight on me and on her.
Should I be keeping records of things my kids do? I live in CA and
understand I am required to provide 3 hours of education for 180 days.

My oldest could do this standing on his head because he'd read books for
6 hours a day. My daughter, not so much. I can't imagine what she
spends her time doing is "educational."

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

JJ

I pulled out two phrases nobody has mentioned yet, to reflect back for the original poster's attention as she works through all these new ideas:

"What if she's like me and she has no passion?"

"I'm thinking of this partly for my husband's piece of mind . . .and also my daughter's
piece of mind . . ."

One of my own passions is weighing the possible significance in every word, particularly words full of feeling that come out without deliberate choosing.

What if she's like you, oh dear, because that would be a bad thing? You have no passion but you admire and perhaps envy what you see as your husband's passion? If that's an idea you have been living out, then it almost certainly is undermining your relationship with both daughter and husband. Which in turns makes unschooling harder to get, in both senses -- harder to understand, harder to have and hold. Successful unschooling is so much about relationships.

Noticing that the second quote uses the word "piece" instead of its homonym (sound-alike) "peace" -- twice. Most minds would scoff at the piece/peace switch as mere spelling convention, nothing to see, move along. But on a deep unschooling level, paying attention to something so tiny can springboard an open and curious mind to some important ideas. Peace of mind is what you mean but instead you have piece of mind. Wow! And maybe you feel like your husband's giving you a piece of his mind? Maybe you're worried that your daughter's mind is in disjointed pieces, rather than fitting into a coherent whole of peaceful passion. Maybe you feel your own peace of mind is in pieces.

There are no right or wrong answers to such a line of thinking. The point is to pursue it, to see where it might take you . . .maybe even cultivate a real passion for it! :)


JJ


>
> *Thank you* for this - all of it. I'm still learning about the philosophy of unschooling I guess, and so I'm glad to see there's much more to it than I thought.

odiniella

--- In [email protected], Schuyler <s.waynforth@...>
wrote:
>
> Looking at what someone else is doing and dismissing it as not
educational is a
> pretty telling thing.

I've been thinking about this all morning. I've come to the conclusion
that one of my worries is that my child would enjoy exploring things in
the safety of a home in which dinner is provided every evening and she's
got a nice living room to hang out in with family. I shutter to think
she would do this until she's 35 but as I was thinking this, I realized,
my daughter really does have a courageous spirit. Even if it has been
suppressed for practicality reasons (school), it needn't stay
suppressed. Besides, these images in my imagination don't really apply
to her character. So I guess I just want to know that it's natural for
kids to want to leave home and pursue their own adventures when they're
ready, and unschooling gives them that opportunity all along. And those
adult children who stay at home, the ones I know or I hear about, have
always been the kids who have been shuffled from one organized
experience to the next and have not learned how to channel that natural
adventure/curiosity. Would you say that's on the right track?
Btw, we're painting her bedroom this week and I've not seen her this
giddy and genuinely joyful in a while. It's nice to see that again.
Thanks for all the practical advice here as well from others. I
appreciate every single comment.
Helen


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

I would say stop planning that far ahead. Stop comparing to other kids, grown and not. The economy is forcing some life choices on some young adults they might not have chosen otherwise, no matter what their schooling was. Some young and not-so-young adults try many things before settling on a "career" and then change to something entirely different when they get older. Stop thinking that unschooling or anything else is going to be any sort of guarantee about your daughter's work life in the future. There are no guarantees. Even if you knew what would be best for her in 10 or 20 years. :)

Enjoy the painting and the happy daughter. That's enough for right now.

Nance



--- In [email protected], "odiniella" <hgaimari@...> wrote:
>
>
> --- In [email protected], Schuyler <s.waynforth@>
> wrote:
> >
> > Looking at what someone else is doing and dismissing it as not
> educational is a
> > pretty telling thing.
>
> I've been thinking about this all morning. I've come to the conclusion
> that one of my worries is that my child would enjoy exploring things in
> the safety of a home in which dinner is provided every evening and she's
> got a nice living room to hang out in with family. I shutter to think
> she would do this until she's 35 but as I was thinking this, I realized,
> my daughter really does have a courageous spirit. Even if it has been
> suppressed for practicality reasons (school), it needn't stay
> suppressed. Besides, these images in my imagination don't really apply
> to her character. So I guess I just want to know that it's natural for
> kids to want to leave home and pursue their own adventures when they're
> ready, and unschooling gives them that opportunity all along. And those
> adult children who stay at home, the ones I know or I hear about, have
> always been the kids who have been shuffled from one organized
> experience to the next and have not learned how to channel that natural
> adventure/curiosity. Would you say that's on the right track?
> Btw, we're painting her bedroom this week and I've not seen her this
> giddy and genuinely joyful in a while. It's nice to see that again.
> Thanks for all the practical advice here as well from others. I
> appreciate every single comment.
> Helen
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

MargaretC

I have enjoyed this group, but at times there seems to be a rigidity that is really a turnoff and your comments remind me of the rigid and oppressive rules of school. (Line up! No talking!)

We don't need to criticize! Give Helen a break. I enjoyed reading all she had to say and did not find it a waste of time at all. People's personalities and humanity come out in the way they express themselves.

No one has to read through everyone's posts if they don't want to.

I relate to what you say Helen and it sounds like unschooling is a leap for you as it is for me. It's scary and worrisome and hopefully you will be supported along the way in your process.

Margaret
Perfectly confused about schooling or unschooling my kids

--- In [email protected], Joyce Fetteroll <jfetteroll@...> wrote:
>
> Helen, please do reread and edit -- and reread again and edit again --
> before you send.
>
> First, undoubtedly most people clicked your post into the trash.
> Meaning you cut off potential people who might have helped.
>
> Second, you've cumulatively used up many many hours of the people on
> the list who waded through what you wrote. That time could have been
> spent giving you some advice but people do have busy lives.
>
> As you're rereading if you've written something then retracted it or
> re-explained it, delete the first explanation. Or skip the retraction.
> Please write what you mean the first time so people don't need to wade
> through a brain dump.
>
> And it will help you too. If you can organize your thoughts clearly
> enough to express them to others, you'll be able to weed out a lot of
> what's in your way and see your problems more clearly too.
>
> Being long winded is not an incurable disease ;-) It's something
> that's fully in your power to take control of.
>
> So I think the 1st 5 paragraphs aren't even relevant to the question.
> He's still in school, right? And you're not asking about him, correct?
>
>
> > I expect that as he gets older we'll explore what colleges have good
> > programs and what their requirements are and he'll be motivated to
> > show
> > them he is a good applicant.
>
>
>
> Engineers (and artists and musicians and historians and writers and
> nuclear physicists) are born not made. Kids will pull what they need
> in to feed what's already inside of them. *They* will choose the
> directions. You provide the environment, means to explore, support,
> the partnership.
>
> When kids are already living what they want to use college to explore
> further, they don't need to make themselves look like high school
> students who are just jumping through the hoops they're told to jump
> through.
>
>
> > She does NOT like having no structure or routine.
>
>
>
> Structure doesn't need to be a curriculum. Structure can be a plan for
> the day or the week. Some people aren't comfortable with too many
> choices. When emotions aren't pulling someone in a particular
> direction and the answer to what to do is "Whatever you want," it can
> be overwhelming. Especially if it happens every time you come to the
> end of something.
>
> Help her by giving her some structure to the day. Make plans. Make
> them flexible. Her actions are saying she's not yet ready to handle it
> herself, so you do the basics and draw her in.
>
> Joyce
>

Joyce Fetteroll

On Mar 13, 2011, at 3:19 AM, MargaretC wrote:

> your comments remind me of the rigid and oppressive rules of school

When rules are used to control people to make life easier for the
controllers, yes, they're oppressive.

It's not a rule that people write clearly. It's not a rule that people
reread and edit before sending.

It's *a good practice* so they can help themselves better! If anyone
anywhere in life needs help from someone, make it easier for them to
help you! Don't erect barriers between you and their help. Let them
spend the energy they're willing to give helping you, not spend it
lost and confused in your problem.

Letting problems flow out into words can be a good thing. It can be
cathartic. But this list isn't for catharsis. That's what journals are
for.

If the goal is getting ideas from radical unschoolers -- which is what
this list is for so that should be someone's goal for posting here --
then before clicking send reread it (perhaps several times) as if you
were a stranger seeing this problem for the first time before clicking
send. Make it as clear as *you* are able. Cut out the tangents. Cut
out backtracks to say what you really mean. Those are tips. There are
no clarity rules to meet. There are the real world standards: does it
help you get closer to your own goal.

Writing out a problem clearly enough for others to understand is
helpful not just to others who are reading with an eye to help but to
the person who is writing it.

> Give Helen a break.


A break doesn't help Helen. What she needs, what she came for, is
practical advice on how to untangle what was troubling her.

> I enjoyed reading all she had to say and did not find it a waste of
> time at all. People's personalities and humanity come out in the way
> they express themselves.

And how did your enjoyment help Helen? I don't think her intent was to
entertain people. I don't even think she wrote for silent sympathy.
Even if she stirred up 2000 "Aws" and "Oh, my, I so get her
confusion"s with her post, they helped her not at all.

> No one has to read through everyone's posts if they don't want to.


And if the people who are able to offer help don't bother because a
post is a tangle of random thoughts, the poster won't be helping
herself. She'll be getting in the way of her own goal.

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]