Has anyone had this experience?
livwithroz
I've recently let go of control of my kids meals. For years I followed the
advice, "If they don't eat what you give them make them wait for the next meal.
They won't starve themselves". Well, that achieved no success. They ate what
they wanted of what I gave them and went many meals without food. It didn't make
them balanced eaters. Now I've gone completely the other way and allowed my two
girls, 6 & 4, free choice starting with their input at the store. They loved it
at first , but now my 6 yr. old has taken to wanting just flour, or just
ketchup. This is REALLY hard for me because I started milking dairy goats 2
years ago, raise and process our own chickens, make my own sourdough bread,
yogurt, cheese, bone broth soups, etc. because I see the value in knowing where
my food came from and how it;s processed. Now my kids are pretty much boycotting
all of my food, most fruits and all veges and most proteins! Has anyone had this
situation? Will they really start making good choices?
advice, "If they don't eat what you give them make them wait for the next meal.
They won't starve themselves". Well, that achieved no success. They ate what
they wanted of what I gave them and went many meals without food. It didn't make
them balanced eaters. Now I've gone completely the other way and allowed my two
girls, 6 & 4, free choice starting with their input at the store. They loved it
at first , but now my 6 yr. old has taken to wanting just flour, or just
ketchup. This is REALLY hard for me because I started milking dairy goats 2
years ago, raise and process our own chickens, make my own sourdough bread,
yogurt, cheese, bone broth soups, etc. because I see the value in knowing where
my food came from and how it;s processed. Now my kids are pretty much boycotting
all of my food, most fruits and all veges and most proteins! Has anyone had this
situation? Will they really start making good choices?
plaidpanties666
"livwithroz" <livwithroz@...> wrote:
What you can do is become their ally in decision-making - but first you're going to have to build up some trust, and that takes time.
It also helps to step back a little and look at what she's eating over weeks and even months, rather than days. Kids diets often look muuuuuch more balanced over time - its pretty amazing, really. Be sure, if you're fretting about food, to consider beverages as "food" too - a cup of juice is fruit/veggies, a glass of milk has fats and proteins.
---Meredith
>Will they really start making good choices?It depends on how you define "good" - if by that you mean the choices you would have them make, nothing in the world can guarantee that.
What you can do is become their ally in decision-making - but first you're going to have to build up some trust, and that takes time.
>Now my kids are pretty much boycottingThat's a pretty normal part of deschooling, for kids to run to an opposite extreme for awhile. Letting go of rules and limits gradually sometimes helps with that - but not all kids will go for "gradual" either, once they realize you're starting to re-evaluate your thinking! So for now, you're in a transition. Transitions are rough! It can help (in terms of not-panicking) to see your kids reaction as a transition: its not permanent, its an in-between.
> all of my food
>>now my 6 yr. old has taken to wanting just flour, or justIt can also help a lot to see this kind of experimentation as one of the ways people learn about the world. What a wonderful gift you've given your dd, that she can explore foods in a unique way, focusing on one thing at a time!
> ketchup.
It also helps to step back a little and look at what she's eating over weeks and even months, rather than days. Kids diets often look muuuuuch more balanced over time - its pretty amazing, really. Be sure, if you're fretting about food, to consider beverages as "food" too - a cup of juice is fruit/veggies, a glass of milk has fats and proteins.
>I started milking dairy goats 2See those as your values. They aren't necessarily your kids' values right now - and it may be that they won't ever value those things the way you do, regardless. Look and see what your kids value. I'll be willing to bet you share a value with them wrt food, and that's wanting to have some control over what you eat, so you can honor that in their choices and see it as a gift that you didn't get as a kid. Take their wants and wishes as seriously as you would have wanted, and reparent the little girl in you.
> years ago, raise and process our own chickens, make my own sourdough bread,
> yogurt, cheese, bone broth soups, etc. because I see the value in knowing where
> my food came from and how it;s processed.
---Meredith
Lesley Cross
In addition to everything Meredith mentioned, it looks as if you are taking
your children's rejection of the foods you prepare personally- as a
rejection of you and your values around food. Tell me where I'm wrong.
In my experience, my children do not always share my specific values but we
have some commonalities (like being free to choose the foods we love). I
think my children have a deep respect and acceptance of my beliefs and of me
as a person because I don't expect them to believe what I believe and I
accept and support them in finding, creating and adapting their own values
and choices.
Flour and ketchup may not be "good" choices through a lens of pure nutrition
or a concept of "what a good parent allows", but they are the best choices
your daughter can make now simply because those are the choices she's
making. (As Byron Katie says, "When you argue with reality, you lose. But
only 100% of the time.") She has her reasons. Perhaps she's exploring
textures and flavors and that's more important to her now than anything
else. Her body has stores of nutrients and is able to produce many others.
Her body will give her a desire for other things eventually, if her desires
are not overridden by an outside influence. And I think that's the most
challenging thing for many families when stepping away from a controlling
approach to food. It's important to get really clean on your own thoughts
about your child's diet or you're likely to say and do things that are
subtly (or not so subtly) manipulating them into making choices that aren't
coming from their body's guidance. That is the most common reason when a
parent comes back a few months after lifting food restrictions saying "I
tried it, it didn't work- they'll eat nothing but candy". It feels kind of
rude to point out that the child is continuing to choose candy because the
parent is standing over them nagging about "nutrition" every 30 seconds- but
that's what's making the child averse to anything remotely nutritious (or
the child will give in and eat a little of something the parent approves.but
generally that still doesn't satisfy the parent). If you can get really
clear in your motivations for control, you can work through those beliefs to
find ones that are more freeing for yourself and your child.
Lesley
Living in wholeness so our children can live in theirs
http://www.lesleyreidcross.wordpress.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
your children's rejection of the foods you prepare personally- as a
rejection of you and your values around food. Tell me where I'm wrong.
In my experience, my children do not always share my specific values but we
have some commonalities (like being free to choose the foods we love). I
think my children have a deep respect and acceptance of my beliefs and of me
as a person because I don't expect them to believe what I believe and I
accept and support them in finding, creating and adapting their own values
and choices.
Flour and ketchup may not be "good" choices through a lens of pure nutrition
or a concept of "what a good parent allows", but they are the best choices
your daughter can make now simply because those are the choices she's
making. (As Byron Katie says, "When you argue with reality, you lose. But
only 100% of the time.") She has her reasons. Perhaps she's exploring
textures and flavors and that's more important to her now than anything
else. Her body has stores of nutrients and is able to produce many others.
Her body will give her a desire for other things eventually, if her desires
are not overridden by an outside influence. And I think that's the most
challenging thing for many families when stepping away from a controlling
approach to food. It's important to get really clean on your own thoughts
about your child's diet or you're likely to say and do things that are
subtly (or not so subtly) manipulating them into making choices that aren't
coming from their body's guidance. That is the most common reason when a
parent comes back a few months after lifting food restrictions saying "I
tried it, it didn't work- they'll eat nothing but candy". It feels kind of
rude to point out that the child is continuing to choose candy because the
parent is standing over them nagging about "nutrition" every 30 seconds- but
that's what's making the child averse to anything remotely nutritious (or
the child will give in and eat a little of something the parent approves.but
generally that still doesn't satisfy the parent). If you can get really
clear in your motivations for control, you can work through those beliefs to
find ones that are more freeing for yourself and your child.
Lesley
Living in wholeness so our children can live in theirs
http://www.lesleyreidcross.wordpress.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
livwithroz
Thanks for your encouraging thoughts. It's funny you said some kids won't go for gradual because my Liv has picked up on it right from the beginning and we never had discussions about changing things. Except I told her no more phonics and math-u-see. This evening we were watching a movie while her sister and father were conked out beside us. I was responding to a reply and she asked what I was doing. I told her it was about getting encouragement for the new way is schooling and eating. There was no discussion but when I tucked her into bed she said,"About this new eating thing... I think I will have your chicken soup every day at the end of the day." I don't know if she'll follow through but I appreciate her thoughts because it's obvious she knows how I feel about her flour, ketchup, maple syrup eating habits! Like this morning she said," I know when I ask for maple syrup you will have hard feelings. And that makes me feel sad. " I said I'm sorry that makes you feel sad and she gave me a great big hug. I thanked her for telling me her feelings. I know she's very in tune with me and that's part of why she's probably so extreme in many things. But I do think it will be ok, better than ok. I think she could be the balanced person I wish I could be. And maybe she'll help me to feel that way too! Anyway, thank you!
--- In [email protected], "plaidpanties666" <plaidpanties666@...> wrote:
>
> "livwithroz" <livwithroz@> wrote:
> >Will they really start making good choices?
>
> It depends on how you define "good" - if by that you mean the choices you would have them make, nothing in the world can guarantee that.
>
> What you can do is become their ally in decision-making - but first you're going to have to build up some trust, and that takes time.
>
> >Now my kids are pretty much boycotting
> > all of my food
>
> That's a pretty normal part of deschooling, for kids to run to an opposite extreme for awhile. Letting go of rules and limits gradually sometimes helps with that - but not all kids will go for "gradual" either, once they realize you're starting to re-evaluate your thinking! So for now, you're in a transition. Transitions are rough! It can help (in terms of not-panicking) to see your kids reaction as a transition: its not permanent, its an in-between.
>
> >>now my 6 yr. old has taken to wanting just flour, or just
> > ketchup.
>
> It can also help a lot to see this kind of experimentation as one of the ways people learn about the world. What a wonderful gift you've given your dd, that she can explore foods in a unique way, focusing on one thing at a time!
>
> It also helps to step back a little and look at what she's eating over weeks and even months, rather than days. Kids diets often look muuuuuch more balanced over time - its pretty amazing, really. Be sure, if you're fretting about food, to consider beverages as "food" too - a cup of juice is fruit/veggies, a glass of milk has fats and proteins.
>
> >I started milking dairy goats 2
> > years ago, raise and process our own chickens, make my own sourdough bread,
> > yogurt, cheese, bone broth soups, etc. because I see the value in knowing where
> > my food came from and how it;s processed.
>
> See those as your values. They aren't necessarily your kids' values right now - and it may be that they won't ever value those things the way you do, regardless. Look and see what your kids value. I'll be willing to bet you share a value with them wrt food, and that's wanting to have some control over what you eat, so you can honor that in their choices and see it as a gift that you didn't get as a kid. Take their wants and wishes as seriously as you would have wanted, and reparent the little girl in you.
>
> ---Meredith
>
Mirjam
Hi!
When I let go of the 'more controlled food thing', it freaked me out after some weeks. My eldest would eat a lot of chocolate bars. He started to gain weight. It freaked me out, so what I did (and still do, but gradually letting it go) is going to the supermarket myself. I know what they like to eat and I will buy it. But not 20 chocolate bars per person per week anymore. They can eat what they want and how much they want, and I don't mind buying them something when we're out.
But I need to do this gradually. That's not my nature, but these things are big for me, this is not how I was brought up! Too much to let go at once (also for my husband's sake ;)).
Sandra has said something like: read a little, let it sink in, apply, read a little bit more, etc...
That is very true for me....
Groetjes, Mirjam :o), mv Adam (9), Boaz (6) en Levi (3).
http://www.leermeer.blogspot.com
When I let go of the 'more controlled food thing', it freaked me out after some weeks. My eldest would eat a lot of chocolate bars. He started to gain weight. It freaked me out, so what I did (and still do, but gradually letting it go) is going to the supermarket myself. I know what they like to eat and I will buy it. But not 20 chocolate bars per person per week anymore. They can eat what they want and how much they want, and I don't mind buying them something when we're out.
But I need to do this gradually. That's not my nature, but these things are big for me, this is not how I was brought up! Too much to let go at once (also for my husband's sake ;)).
Sandra has said something like: read a little, let it sink in, apply, read a little bit more, etc...
That is very true for me....
Groetjes, Mirjam :o), mv Adam (9), Boaz (6) en Levi (3).
http://www.leermeer.blogspot.com
--- In [email protected], "livwithroz" <livwithroz@...> wrote:
>
> I've recently let go of control of my kids meals. For years I followed the
> advice, "If they don't eat what you give them make them wait for the next meal.
> They won't starve themselves". Well, that achieved no success. They ate what
> they wanted of what I gave them and went many meals without food. It didn't make
> them balanced eaters. Now I've gone completely the other way and allowed my two
> girls, 6 & 4, free choice starting with their input at the store. They loved it
> at first , but now my 6 yr. old has taken to wanting just flour, or just
> ketchup. This is REALLY hard for me because I started milking dairy goats 2
> years ago, raise and process our own chickens, make my own sourdough bread,
> yogurt, cheese, bone broth soups, etc. because I see the value in knowing where
> my food came from and how it;s processed. Now my kids are pretty much boycotting
> all of my food, most fruits and all veges and most proteins! Has anyone had this
> situation? Will they really start making good choices?
>
BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
<<<" is going to the supermarket myself. I know what they like to eat and I
will buy it. But not 20 chocolate bars per person per week anymore. ">>>
That is pretty much the oppposite of what we do here.
When my kids are into something we buy tons of it. Big bags and big bags. My
husband is really good about doing it.
My kids have never had any food restricitons or limits.
If they are into Laffy Taffy we get big bags of it.
They still eat other foods.
Gigi my four year old was into blueberries and vegetarian shushi for a few days.
She also wanted some witner Oreos but she only had a few of those and the box is
getting stale in the cupboard.
3 Weeks ago we had to buy 25 chocolate bars for MD ( 8 years old) 4-H club. You
can either sell them or keep them.
We just kepst them. Gigi may have eaten one or two bars. I don't think MD ate a
whole one. Theyh opened a bunch to try and never ate them. I gave a bunch away
and ate one. There are still about 5 or so in there.
We still have Halloween candy!!!
But Gigi was into Crunch so Brian got her a big bag of the little ones and she
ate abunch out of it yesterday. She also ate bacon, garpes and carrots.
I found out that rationalizing a food they are into only makes that food scarce
and desired.
Of course I cannot predict what they will want and we may run out or not have
something. But if I notice something it in the top of the list than we get lots
of it. Be blueberries or chocolate bars.
Alex Polikowsky
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
will buy it. But not 20 chocolate bars per person per week anymore. ">>>
That is pretty much the oppposite of what we do here.
When my kids are into something we buy tons of it. Big bags and big bags. My
husband is really good about doing it.
My kids have never had any food restricitons or limits.
If they are into Laffy Taffy we get big bags of it.
They still eat other foods.
Gigi my four year old was into blueberries and vegetarian shushi for a few days.
She also wanted some witner Oreos but she only had a few of those and the box is
getting stale in the cupboard.
3 Weeks ago we had to buy 25 chocolate bars for MD ( 8 years old) 4-H club. You
can either sell them or keep them.
We just kepst them. Gigi may have eaten one or two bars. I don't think MD ate a
whole one. Theyh opened a bunch to try and never ate them. I gave a bunch away
and ate one. There are still about 5 or so in there.
We still have Halloween candy!!!
But Gigi was into Crunch so Brian got her a big bag of the little ones and she
ate abunch out of it yesterday. She also ate bacon, garpes and carrots.
I found out that rationalizing a food they are into only makes that food scarce
and desired.
Of course I cannot predict what they will want and we may run out or not have
something. But if I notice something it in the top of the list than we get lots
of it. Be blueberries or chocolate bars.
Alex Polikowsky
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
plaidpanties666
"livwithroz" <livwithroz@...> wrote:
And maybe you'll both find a new definition of "balance" along the way. As a pretty intense, passionate person myself, I find "balance" has to take my natural tendencies into account. Its not even-steven, its honoring my need to dive in with both feet and still get a reasonable amount of sleep and food in the meantime.
---Meredith
>I think she could be the balanced person I wish I could be. And maybe she'll help me to feel that way too!*******************
And maybe you'll both find a new definition of "balance" along the way. As a pretty intense, passionate person myself, I find "balance" has to take my natural tendencies into account. Its not even-steven, its honoring my need to dive in with both feet and still get a reasonable amount of sleep and food in the meantime.
---Meredith
plaidpanties666
"Mirjam" <mirjamkoopmans@...> wrote:
Yes! its important not to get so in love with the bright shiny pictures longtime unschoolers paint of living without imposing limits and want to dive right in, but diving in is a good way to lose confidence and end up being on-again-off-again with limits - which really makes hash of the relationship.
http://sandradodd.com/gradualchange
---Meredith
>> But I need to do this gradually. That's not my nature, but these things are big for me, this is not how I was brought up! Too much to let go at once (also for my husband's sake ;)).**************
Yes! its important not to get so in love with the bright shiny pictures longtime unschoolers paint of living without imposing limits and want to dive right in, but diving in is a good way to lose confidence and end up being on-again-off-again with limits - which really makes hash of the relationship.
http://sandradodd.com/gradualchange
---Meredith
Tessa
I have often heard that children may not be prepared to read until a certain age that varies from child to child. Some children may read early, others not until they are a young teen.
Does this also apply to mathematics? I ask because I have always been pretty good at math, until eighth grade when I started algebra 1. I had to come in for help every morning and re-do many of my assignments because I had trouble grasping the concepts. I ended up re-taking the class in ninth grade, even though I ended up with an "A" in that class because of spending so much extra time on the subject.
I started unschooling when I was in tenth grade.
This year I am 17, consider myself a "twelfth grader", and FINALLY trying to learn math again, and I have hit a wall again. I got past the first few lessons of Algebra 2 with not too much problems, although I did have to re-do LOTS of assignments to get a better grade.
I've missed a couple days of class this past month due to surgery and sickness, and I am completely, completely lost in math. I've gone in for extra help, but I cannot grasp any of the concepts.... Nothing makes sense! I feel so hopeless.... that's why I'm asking if it's possible that I cannot mentally grasp the concepts - like is it "possible"?
It makes me feel so stupid that I can't learn Algebra 2, it's a class I was "supposed to take" in ninth grade! But it would be of some consolation to hear that maybe my brain was not wired for math, so I can stop beating myself up over it! I am really good at English, participating in running start, spelling, etc... Very language and word oriented.
If any of you are familiar with the Running Start program, you take college courses and end up with a diploma basically. But in order to graduate you have to have Algebra 2 proficiency. :(
Tessa
Does this also apply to mathematics? I ask because I have always been pretty good at math, until eighth grade when I started algebra 1. I had to come in for help every morning and re-do many of my assignments because I had trouble grasping the concepts. I ended up re-taking the class in ninth grade, even though I ended up with an "A" in that class because of spending so much extra time on the subject.
I started unschooling when I was in tenth grade.
This year I am 17, consider myself a "twelfth grader", and FINALLY trying to learn math again, and I have hit a wall again. I got past the first few lessons of Algebra 2 with not too much problems, although I did have to re-do LOTS of assignments to get a better grade.
I've missed a couple days of class this past month due to surgery and sickness, and I am completely, completely lost in math. I've gone in for extra help, but I cannot grasp any of the concepts.... Nothing makes sense! I feel so hopeless.... that's why I'm asking if it's possible that I cannot mentally grasp the concepts - like is it "possible"?
It makes me feel so stupid that I can't learn Algebra 2, it's a class I was "supposed to take" in ninth grade! But it would be of some consolation to hear that maybe my brain was not wired for math, so I can stop beating myself up over it! I am really good at English, participating in running start, spelling, etc... Very language and word oriented.
If any of you are familiar with the Running Start program, you take college courses and end up with a diploma basically. But in order to graduate you have to have Algebra 2 proficiency. :(
Tessa
Jeanette
Maybe there is a "missing link" for you. I experienced the same difficulties with that level of algebra. My "missing link" that helped was learning a base 5 number system when I took a discovery based math course in college. Just something that popped in my head while reading your email. I loved the discovery math and science classes that I took in college.....I FINALLY had so many lightbulb moments in those two subjects that had been so difficult for me.
Jeanette Wilson
Jeanette Wilson
On Dec 3, 2010, at 5:44 PM, Tessa <kitty_angel@...> wrote:
I have often heard that children may not be prepared to read until a certain age that varies from child to child. Some children may read early, others not until they are a young teen.
Does this also apply to mathematics? I ask because I have always been pretty good at math, until eighth grade when I started algebra 1. I had to come in for help every morning and re-do many of my assignments because I had trouble grasping the concepts. I ended up re-taking the class in ninth grade, even though I ended up with an "A" in that class because of spending so much extra time on the subject.
I started unschooling when I was in tenth grade.
This year I am 17, consider myself a "twelfth grader", and FINALLY trying to learn math again, and I have hit a wall again. I got past the first few lessons of Algebra 2 with not too much problems, although I did have to re-do LOTS of assignments to get a better grade.
I've missed a couple days of class this past month due to surgery and sickness, and I am completely, completely lost in math. I've gone in for extra help, but I cannot grasp any of the concepts.... Nothing makes sense! I feel so hopeless.... that's why I'm asking if it's possible that I cannot mentally grasp the concepts - like is it "possible"?
It makes me feel so stupid that I can't learn Algebra 2, it's a class I was "supposed to take" in ninth grade! But it would be of some consolation to hear that maybe my brain was not wired for math, so I can stop beating myself up over it! I am really good at English, participating in running start, spelling, etc... Very language and word oriented.
If any of you are familiar with the Running Start program, you take college courses and end up with a diploma basically. But in order to graduate you have to have Algebra 2 proficiency. :(
Tessa
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Rinelle
----- Original Message -----
From: "BRIAN POLIKOWSKY" <polykowholsteins@...>
>
> My kids have never had any food restricitons or limits.
> If they are into Laffy Taffy we get big bags of it.
> They still eat other foods.
What about kids who aren't still eating other foods though? That's what
we're struggling with here. After several months of hot chips (fries)
several times a day, DD is cutting back on just about everything that she
used to eat, and only eating chips! Finding it harder and harder to just
keep letting go.
Tamara
Joyce Fetteroll
On Dec 3, 2010, at 5:44 PM, Tessa wrote:
doesn't make sense that everyone is mathematically inclined any more
than it would make sense to assume that everyone can draw. or play the
piano.
But what complicates the answer to your question is that math
instruction is so horrid that it's surprising anyone learns math from
it.
When you learned to speak, you were immersed in the language and you
pulled sense from it. No one had to teach you. You watched, you tried
things out, you go feedback, you tried again. That's how we naturally
learn by pulling sense from how the real world acts and reacts.
But math instruction pulls math out of the world and, so doing, strips
it of meaning. It would be like teaching a toddler to speak by getting
it to memorize isolated words and sentence structure and expecting
that to give them enough understanding to eventually speak.
It's meaningless to add 1.29 + 3.29. 12.5% of 17.49 is meaningless.
It's as meaningless as "The cat sat on the mat," when there is no cat
and is no mat.
Real world math helps us understand the world better so we can make
decisions. Do I have enough to get the fries with that? Should the
supports be 3" or 3'? How can I hit these 5 stores in as little time
as possible? How much tip should I leave?
I've written about math instruction a fair bit at:
http://joyfullyrejoycing.com
scroll down the left side to the math section.
There's a very small fraction of people who actually grasp math from
classroom instruction. They're like the people who recreate a dance by
watching it. They just need a nudge in the right direction to grasp
the concepts.
Most people who get math in school, like me, pick up on the patterns
and can reproduce them, but don't necessarily grasp the underlying
concepts. It's messing around with patterns. I have a degree in
engineering and it wasn't until college that I had that aha moment of
understanding that multiplication was repeated addition. It wasn't
until well after college that, without doing any additional math, that
I was finally able to grasp what they were talking about because I was
understanding real life and seeing how math fit the problem rather
than the other way around.
Lots and lots of people expect to understand what they're doing in
math and get frustrated and start to feel stupid at math when that
doesn't happen. And they really shouldn't. It's really really hard to
absorb abstract concepts when you haven't had enough experience with
real life to understand what you'd want to know about situations and
why.
A tutor who is good at translating the abstract into real life
examples could be helpful. That way you'd be getting the concrete and
having it explained in words which is your strength.
There are much better resources for learning algebra than most
textbooks and math classes but to help you with the class, what might
work best is Khan Academy. He started out explaining math concepts to
his nieces and nephews who were having problems and it grew to
hundreds of short (10-15 minute) videos on isolated concepts in math
(and several other subjects).
http://www.khanacademy.org/
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> It makes me feel so stupid that I can't learn Algebra 2, it's aWell, there's 2 things. First, yes, people have their strengths. It
> class I was "supposed to take" in ninth grade! But it would be of
> some consolation to hear that maybe my brain was not wired for math,
> so I can stop beating myself up over it! I am really good at
> English, participating in running start, spelling, etc... Very
> language and word oriented.
doesn't make sense that everyone is mathematically inclined any more
than it would make sense to assume that everyone can draw. or play the
piano.
But what complicates the answer to your question is that math
instruction is so horrid that it's surprising anyone learns math from
it.
When you learned to speak, you were immersed in the language and you
pulled sense from it. No one had to teach you. You watched, you tried
things out, you go feedback, you tried again. That's how we naturally
learn by pulling sense from how the real world acts and reacts.
But math instruction pulls math out of the world and, so doing, strips
it of meaning. It would be like teaching a toddler to speak by getting
it to memorize isolated words and sentence structure and expecting
that to give them enough understanding to eventually speak.
It's meaningless to add 1.29 + 3.29. 12.5% of 17.49 is meaningless.
It's as meaningless as "The cat sat on the mat," when there is no cat
and is no mat.
Real world math helps us understand the world better so we can make
decisions. Do I have enough to get the fries with that? Should the
supports be 3" or 3'? How can I hit these 5 stores in as little time
as possible? How much tip should I leave?
I've written about math instruction a fair bit at:
http://joyfullyrejoycing.com
scroll down the left side to the math section.
There's a very small fraction of people who actually grasp math from
classroom instruction. They're like the people who recreate a dance by
watching it. They just need a nudge in the right direction to grasp
the concepts.
Most people who get math in school, like me, pick up on the patterns
and can reproduce them, but don't necessarily grasp the underlying
concepts. It's messing around with patterns. I have a degree in
engineering and it wasn't until college that I had that aha moment of
understanding that multiplication was repeated addition. It wasn't
until well after college that, without doing any additional math, that
I was finally able to grasp what they were talking about because I was
understanding real life and seeing how math fit the problem rather
than the other way around.
Lots and lots of people expect to understand what they're doing in
math and get frustrated and start to feel stupid at math when that
doesn't happen. And they really shouldn't. It's really really hard to
absorb abstract concepts when you haven't had enough experience with
real life to understand what you'd want to know about situations and
why.
A tutor who is good at translating the abstract into real life
examples could be helpful. That way you'd be getting the concrete and
having it explained in words which is your strength.
There are much better resources for learning algebra than most
textbooks and math classes but to help you with the class, what might
work best is Khan Academy. He started out explaining math concepts to
his nieces and nephews who were having problems and it grew to
hundreds of short (10-15 minute) videos on isolated concepts in math
(and several other subjects).
http://www.khanacademy.org/
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Robin Bentley
I guess it depends on how you brought choice into your home.
If you just said "eat whatever you want" after years of restrictions,
kids might just do that. And they also might see your discomfort with
it and decide "well, I'd better eat it all now, before she makes me
eat X again."
Unschooling isn't about kicking over the traces and galloping away
from everything you've done before. It's better to go slowly and
gradually with changes. Say yes more to requests. Offer a variety of
foods (like a monkey platter http://sandradodd.com/eating/
monkeyplatter) including the particular ones your kids like. Be okay
with them not eating everything (or anything!), but give them options.
Think creatively!
Chips are potatoes, which are yummy and can be made healthy, if that's
what you're concerned about. Do oven-baked fries with olive oil (and
parmesan cheese and garlic - a favorite around here). Cut potatoes
into cool shapes.
Experiment with dips. Try sweet potato fries. So many possibilities...
Robin B.
If you just said "eat whatever you want" after years of restrictions,
kids might just do that. And they also might see your discomfort with
it and decide "well, I'd better eat it all now, before she makes me
eat X again."
Unschooling isn't about kicking over the traces and galloping away
from everything you've done before. It's better to go slowly and
gradually with changes. Say yes more to requests. Offer a variety of
foods (like a monkey platter http://sandradodd.com/eating/
monkeyplatter) including the particular ones your kids like. Be okay
with them not eating everything (or anything!), but give them options.
Think creatively!
Chips are potatoes, which are yummy and can be made healthy, if that's
what you're concerned about. Do oven-baked fries with olive oil (and
parmesan cheese and garlic - a favorite around here). Cut potatoes
into cool shapes.
Experiment with dips. Try sweet potato fries. So many possibilities...
Robin B.
> What about kids who aren't still eating other foods though? That's
> what
> we're struggling with here. After several months of hot chips (fries)
> several times a day, DD is cutting back on just about everything
> that she
> used to eat, and only eating chips! Finding it harder and harder to
> just
> keep letting go.
Robin Bentley
>Pam Sorooshian also recommends Danica McKellar's books: Math Doesn't
> There are much better resources for learning algebra than most
> textbooks and math classes but to help you with the class, what might
> work best is Khan Academy. He started out explaining math concepts to
> his nieces and nephews who were having problems and it grew to
> hundreds of short (10-15 minute) videos on isolated concepts in math
> (and several other subjects).
>
> http://www.khanacademy.org/
>
Suck and her new one "Hot X: Algebra Exposed"
http://www.mathdoesntsuck.com/book/
There are links to bookstores at the bottom of the page.
Robin B.
BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
There have been times where Gigi has only eaten one or two things for a while. I
make sure I have them.
I make sure I offer and have other foods available and presented.
But most important is that I don't get an attidute about it. What I mean by this
is that children can feel when the parent is unhappy with their choices. They
can feel it when you make comments or askes questions and are bothered that they
are eating "paremesan cheese" or "laffy Taffy" yet AGAIN!
If you give up and give her all the chips she wants but she can still feel your
dislike and disaproval them maybe this can be a factor.
This would be even more acentuated if they have ever felt limited or restricted.
My sister a few years ago used to give candy to her kids but it was not the same
way I do. Her kids would come to my house and raide my cupboards looking for
goodies. Its been a while that she has changed that. It took them a couple of
years but they do not do it anymore. It was not that they were really restricted
but there was baggage and "ou already had one " or "another candy?" and the
attitude towards stuff not considered healthy and whole food. She lurks in this
list and so I can post this knowing she will read and agree.
I have lots of candy and cookies every day in my house. My husband lives on
them. He has lost his sense of smell and taste after a brain injury/bicycle
accident 11 years ago. He is super fit and have the heart of an athlete so no
worries about health or weight. At 48 he is fitter than most 20 year olds.
So one would think my kids eat only that all day. They do eat quite a bit but
they alos love fruits , veggies and whole foods.
Md love salmon and fish and Gigi is always changing last week it was sushi and
blueberries but it seem s that she is moving on quicker than before and gets
tired of a food fast. She used to go months liking a few things here and there.
My friend who is also a local unschooler just visited today with her boys and
they have a very limited diet but they have expanded it in the last couple of
years in a big way. They are 9 and 11 now. A few years aago one of them only ate
stuff that was sweet and had cinnamon in it. He is growing healthy and just
fine! She made sure he always had the his favorites at home.
One times years ago he came for a speep over and all he would eat was Cinnamon
rolls and Life cereal. So I got him those!
Alex Polikowsky
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
make sure I have them.
I make sure I offer and have other foods available and presented.
But most important is that I don't get an attidute about it. What I mean by this
is that children can feel when the parent is unhappy with their choices. They
can feel it when you make comments or askes questions and are bothered that they
are eating "paremesan cheese" or "laffy Taffy" yet AGAIN!
If you give up and give her all the chips she wants but she can still feel your
dislike and disaproval them maybe this can be a factor.
This would be even more acentuated if they have ever felt limited or restricted.
My sister a few years ago used to give candy to her kids but it was not the same
way I do. Her kids would come to my house and raide my cupboards looking for
goodies. Its been a while that she has changed that. It took them a couple of
years but they do not do it anymore. It was not that they were really restricted
but there was baggage and "ou already had one " or "another candy?" and the
attitude towards stuff not considered healthy and whole food. She lurks in this
list and so I can post this knowing she will read and agree.
I have lots of candy and cookies every day in my house. My husband lives on
them. He has lost his sense of smell and taste after a brain injury/bicycle
accident 11 years ago. He is super fit and have the heart of an athlete so no
worries about health or weight. At 48 he is fitter than most 20 year olds.
So one would think my kids eat only that all day. They do eat quite a bit but
they alos love fruits , veggies and whole foods.
Md love salmon and fish and Gigi is always changing last week it was sushi and
blueberries but it seem s that she is moving on quicker than before and gets
tired of a food fast. She used to go months liking a few things here and there.
My friend who is also a local unschooler just visited today with her boys and
they have a very limited diet but they have expanded it in the last couple of
years in a big way. They are 9 and 11 now. A few years aago one of them only ate
stuff that was sweet and had cinnamon in it. He is growing healthy and just
fine! She made sure he always had the his favorites at home.
One times years ago he came for a speep over and all he would eat was Cinnamon
rolls and Life cereal. So I got him those!
Alex Polikowsky
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Schuyler
Chips can be totally varied. I've made parsnip chips and beet root chips and
sweet potato chips and carrot chips. In the end I think potato chips (french
fries) are my favourite, but the others were really fun to try. Maybe you could
get a deep fat fryer, if you don't already have one, and make your own. Maybe
you could try making oven baked chips.
Here's an article about a guy who ate nothing but potatoes and a little oil for
60
days: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/foodanddrink/foodanddrinknews/8170106/Man-eats-nothing-but-potatoes-for-two-months.html.
He was proving a point and marketing a product, but he claims that his health
wasn't negatively effected.
One of the things Simon really likes, actually all of us like, but Simon
especially are chip butties, yummy french fry sandwiches with butter or
mayonnaise. Now I want one.
Sometimes food focuses are timed with other developmental things, Robyn Coburn
mentioned on Always Learning that Jayn tends to eat carbohydrates a lot before a
growth spurt. I tend to like starches more when it's cold outside or when I'm
tired. They have nice and easy to access energy.
What do you think would be the solution? If you started limiting your daughter
to the food choices you want her to make would that make it better? Really?
Is she healthy? Is she happy and playful and fun to be around? Is she wasting
away? Is she enjoying chips so much that other foods just don't seem to make the
grade. Have you tried other starch foods? Does she like rice or pasta or bread?
Have you tried other ways of fixing potatoes or is it only chips? Have you tried
other things to dip chips in or is she only liking them plain?
Chips are a fantastic food base, I would think it wouldn't be that hard to add
things to them if she was amenable. Mushy peas are a treat. Or hummus or
mayonnaise or ketchup or yoghurt based dips or baked beans. You and your
daughter could make a buffet, if she wants to join in, and try a bunch of
different things in chips. Chips with curry is good. Chips and eggs, yum. Chips
with refried beans and cheese. See if anything appeals, see if she likes
anything. Chips with chocolate? Chips with powdered sugar? Chips with
applesauce?
Schuyler
________________________________
From: Rinelle <rinelle@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Saturday, 4 December, 2010 0:43:53
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Re: Has anyone had this experience?
sweet potato chips and carrot chips. In the end I think potato chips (french
fries) are my favourite, but the others were really fun to try. Maybe you could
get a deep fat fryer, if you don't already have one, and make your own. Maybe
you could try making oven baked chips.
Here's an article about a guy who ate nothing but potatoes and a little oil for
60
days: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/foodanddrink/foodanddrinknews/8170106/Man-eats-nothing-but-potatoes-for-two-months.html.
He was proving a point and marketing a product, but he claims that his health
wasn't negatively effected.
One of the things Simon really likes, actually all of us like, but Simon
especially are chip butties, yummy french fry sandwiches with butter or
mayonnaise. Now I want one.
Sometimes food focuses are timed with other developmental things, Robyn Coburn
mentioned on Always Learning that Jayn tends to eat carbohydrates a lot before a
growth spurt. I tend to like starches more when it's cold outside or when I'm
tired. They have nice and easy to access energy.
What do you think would be the solution? If you started limiting your daughter
to the food choices you want her to make would that make it better? Really?
Is she healthy? Is she happy and playful and fun to be around? Is she wasting
away? Is she enjoying chips so much that other foods just don't seem to make the
grade. Have you tried other starch foods? Does she like rice or pasta or bread?
Have you tried other ways of fixing potatoes or is it only chips? Have you tried
other things to dip chips in or is she only liking them plain?
Chips are a fantastic food base, I would think it wouldn't be that hard to add
things to them if she was amenable. Mushy peas are a treat. Or hummus or
mayonnaise or ketchup or yoghurt based dips or baked beans. You and your
daughter could make a buffet, if she wants to join in, and try a bunch of
different things in chips. Chips with curry is good. Chips and eggs, yum. Chips
with refried beans and cheese. See if anything appeals, see if she likes
anything. Chips with chocolate? Chips with powdered sugar? Chips with
applesauce?
Schuyler
________________________________
From: Rinelle <rinelle@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Saturday, 4 December, 2010 0:43:53
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Re: Has anyone had this experience?
----- Original Message -----
From: "BRIAN POLIKOWSKY" <polykowholsteins@...>
>
> My kids have never had any food restricitons or limits.
> If they are into Laffy Taffy we get big bags of it.
> They still eat other foods.
What about kids who aren't still eating other foods though? That's what
we're struggling with here. After several months of hot chips (fries)
several times a day, DD is cutting back on just about everything that she
used to eat, and only eating chips! Finding it harder and harder to just
keep letting go.
Tamara
------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Mirjam
Hi Alex,
I think we're not there yet :). That's why I said: we're getting there ;).
Adam wants to eat rice krispies multigrain for breakfast, lunch and diner. This has been so for several weeks now. So I make sure there is enough milk and packages of the rice krispies.
He has wanted to eat taco's with mince meat for weeks. So I made sure it was there every night.
They want (all three of them) to drink hot chocolate milk all day, so I make sure it's there.
I find it more difficult to let go of the candy thing. I know that, and gradually letting it go. But that takes more time :).
Groetjes, Mirjam :o), mv Adam (9), Boaz (6) en Levi (3).
http://www.leermeer.blogspot.com
I think we're not there yet :). That's why I said: we're getting there ;).
Adam wants to eat rice krispies multigrain for breakfast, lunch and diner. This has been so for several weeks now. So I make sure there is enough milk and packages of the rice krispies.
He has wanted to eat taco's with mince meat for weeks. So I made sure it was there every night.
They want (all three of them) to drink hot chocolate milk all day, so I make sure it's there.
I find it more difficult to let go of the candy thing. I know that, and gradually letting it go. But that takes more time :).
Groetjes, Mirjam :o), mv Adam (9), Boaz (6) en Levi (3).
http://www.leermeer.blogspot.com
Mirjam
I think I have confused the kids (maybe not the younger two) with allowing them to eat everything they wanted. And then, after a couple of weeks, changing my mind...
So I'm really happy that I'm *allowed* ;)) to do it my way and to build up my own confidence about it :)
Groetjes, Mirjam :o), mv Adam (9), Boaz (6) en Levi (3).
http://www.leermeer.blogspot.com
So I'm really happy that I'm *allowed* ;)) to do it my way and to build up my own confidence about it :)
Groetjes, Mirjam :o), mv Adam (9), Boaz (6) en Levi (3).
http://www.leermeer.blogspot.com
plaidpanties666
Tessa <kitty_angel@...> wrote:
That's a fairly common problem that comes up when transitioning from elementary mathematics as taught in schools to algebra, because the elementary mathematics are not taught algebraically - although they could be. So learning algebra, you essentially start over, re-learning the format of mathematics entirely. As I said, lots and lots of people get stuck here and simply get through using the same elemenatry principles of... er... "plug and chug" - they memorize as much as they can and apply it blindly - and get out of math as fast as they can convinced they're "bad at math".
Some people have a natural intuitive grasp of algebraic thinking that survives early indoctrination - whether by luck or being "bad at" the plug and chug method or simply having a higher degree of mathematical affinity overall.
Some people have more of an affinity for logial thinking than others, for sure, just like some people find social situations easier and other people find physical activities easier. We're not all carbon copies of the same person, after all ;)
All that being said, kids who learn math without being taught tend to think algebraically much more easily than people taught math in school. Schools teach probably the most non-intuitive way of performing calculations and somehow manage to make it illogical too. Its a wonder anyone ever learns math at all in school at all!
I don't know about your school, but lots of people who graduate high school never even get to a second course of algebra, so don't beat yourself up. Its Not You. Its not even necessarily that you "aren't wired for math" you've just had any kind of mathematical understanding trained out of you, just like the vast majority of other students.
It may help to step back and consider your goals - why do you want to get through Algebra 2? If its just a tool, then ultimately it doesn't matter if it makes sense to you or not, if you ever use it again or not. Its just a stupid proceedure to muddle through somehow. You don't' need an "A" just the minimum passing score and you can shake it from your boots and forget about it.
If you can't find a tutor or study help that meets your needs in terms of this class, it might be better to look at other options such as the GED, which doesn't require Algebra 2.
---Meredith
>I have always been pretty good at math, until eighth grade when I started algebra 1. I had to come in for help every morning and re-do many of my assignments because I had trouble grasping the concepts. I ended up re-taking the class in ninth grade, even though I ended up with an "A" in that class because of spending so much extra time on the subject.*****************
That's a fairly common problem that comes up when transitioning from elementary mathematics as taught in schools to algebra, because the elementary mathematics are not taught algebraically - although they could be. So learning algebra, you essentially start over, re-learning the format of mathematics entirely. As I said, lots and lots of people get stuck here and simply get through using the same elemenatry principles of... er... "plug and chug" - they memorize as much as they can and apply it blindly - and get out of math as fast as they can convinced they're "bad at math".
Some people have a natural intuitive grasp of algebraic thinking that survives early indoctrination - whether by luck or being "bad at" the plug and chug method or simply having a higher degree of mathematical affinity overall.
>I've gone in for extra help, but I cannot grasp any of the concepts.... Nothing makes sense! I feel so hopeless.... that's why I'm asking if it's possible that I cannot mentally grasp the concepts - like is it "possible"?********************
Some people have more of an affinity for logial thinking than others, for sure, just like some people find social situations easier and other people find physical activities easier. We're not all carbon copies of the same person, after all ;)
All that being said, kids who learn math without being taught tend to think algebraically much more easily than people taught math in school. Schools teach probably the most non-intuitive way of performing calculations and somehow manage to make it illogical too. Its a wonder anyone ever learns math at all in school at all!
> It makes me feel so stupid that I can't learn Algebra 2, it's a class I was "supposed to take" in ninth grade!********************
I don't know about your school, but lots of people who graduate high school never even get to a second course of algebra, so don't beat yourself up. Its Not You. Its not even necessarily that you "aren't wired for math" you've just had any kind of mathematical understanding trained out of you, just like the vast majority of other students.
It may help to step back and consider your goals - why do you want to get through Algebra 2? If its just a tool, then ultimately it doesn't matter if it makes sense to you or not, if you ever use it again or not. Its just a stupid proceedure to muddle through somehow. You don't' need an "A" just the minimum passing score and you can shake it from your boots and forget about it.
If you can't find a tutor or study help that meets your needs in terms of this class, it might be better to look at other options such as the GED, which doesn't require Algebra 2.
---Meredith
plaidpanties666
"Rinelle" <rinelle@...> wrote:
In general, it can help a lot to look at beverages as food, too. If she's eating mostly chips but drinks plenty of milk and juice, she's getting her nutritional needs met in a way that works for her.
The other thing to keep in mind, though, is that if you've pulled in the reigns on food before she's going to be more inclined to binge every time the reigns are let out. It can be better to wait out a period of binging and start from a whole new place, emotionally and psychologically, rather than replaying the same old scenario over again.
---Meredith
>After several months of hot chips (fries)It may be she's needing a lot of starch right now - can you offer lots of other carby foods? Pastas, fun cereals, baked goods? Baked goods, homemade cookies and cakes in particular, are a pretty big staple in my house, one of my "go tos" when I start to panic about what my dd, especially eats (she has an itty bitty apetite And a very conservative palatte, sometimes I swear this kid lives on milk and sunshine...new food this season: cinnamon). If she's solid on wanting chips, chips, chips, look for ways to add a little extra interest and variety - does she like dips and sauces for them? Make lots of those. Try fun things like using pureed veggies (baby food works well for this) for alternative "ketchups". Does she like them fried in particular? She may be needing more fat than she can get in other foods, so look for other ways to offer her more fat - smoothies and yogurts, for instance, or lots of cheesy and creamy dips and spreads.
> several times a day, DD is cutting back on just about everything that she
> used to eat, and only eating chips! Finding it harder and harder to just
> keep letting go.
In general, it can help a lot to look at beverages as food, too. If she's eating mostly chips but drinks plenty of milk and juice, she's getting her nutritional needs met in a way that works for her.
The other thing to keep in mind, though, is that if you've pulled in the reigns on food before she's going to be more inclined to binge every time the reigns are let out. It can be better to wait out a period of binging and start from a whole new place, emotionally and psychologically, rather than replaying the same old scenario over again.
---Meredith
plaidpanties666
"Mirjam" <mirjamkoopmans@...> wrote:
Not just confusing, but it erodes trust. That's important. You can build trust by slowly saying yes more. Saying yes...I mean no...I mean yes, makes the yesses And the nos less trustworthy - and by extention, you become less trustworthy. Woops.
Something that can help, especially with older/more verbal kids, is to be honest about the fact that you're learning too - you don't have all the answers, you're figuring this life thing out as you go. That's something that runs counter to a lot of parenting advice - we're so often adjured to seem sure and be firm. But kids can Tell when we don't "have it all together"! And if we aren't honest about that, we're shutting down communication in a big way. Opening up to talking about adult fallibility can be a way to open up other avenues of communication - and learning - too. You Don't Have To have all the right answers. Figuring things out together is one of the ways people learn about the world, and kids can be a part of that.
---Meredith
>********************
> I think I have confused the kids (maybe not the younger two) with allowing them to eat everything they wanted. And then, after a couple of weeks, changing my mind...
Not just confusing, but it erodes trust. That's important. You can build trust by slowly saying yes more. Saying yes...I mean no...I mean yes, makes the yesses And the nos less trustworthy - and by extention, you become less trustworthy. Woops.
Something that can help, especially with older/more verbal kids, is to be honest about the fact that you're learning too - you don't have all the answers, you're figuring this life thing out as you go. That's something that runs counter to a lot of parenting advice - we're so often adjured to seem sure and be firm. But kids can Tell when we don't "have it all together"! And if we aren't honest about that, we're shutting down communication in a big way. Opening up to talking about adult fallibility can be a way to open up other avenues of communication - and learning - too. You Don't Have To have all the right answers. Figuring things out together is one of the ways people learn about the world, and kids can be a part of that.
---Meredith