help - depression
Elli
Hi -
We've been unschooling for two years. Took the kids out of public school. Son, age 9, is doing fine, happy and carefree. Daughter, age 12, is not.
The way she is living right now reminds me of someone who is depressed. Depression runs in my family and I've struggle through it, many a time. This makes me feel worried.
She spends most of the day in bed, watching TV, playing WOW, playing on her phone, and watching reruns on the computer. Sometimes all at once. She hasn't showered in over a week, and this is typical these days. She eats in bed.
She signed up for a monthly ballroom dance class for kids that she did last year, and loved. She decided not to go, after buying new dresses and shoes to wear to the class. She says that she doesn't like to boy she liked last year and he was the reason she signed up again this year.
She signed up for two one-day art classes, and decided not to go.
She says she has cut off her old school friends because they talk about people behind their backs, because they don't get along with each other, or any other variety of reasons. She made some un-schooling friends last year, but doesn't want to see them anymore either. They live 40 minutes away and have only visited us once. She used to visit them weekly. Its been months since she's seen them.
She rarely goes outside.
She says she wants to go back to school. So next week we have an observation day at a small private school. She says she probably won't be able to make it because she sleeps all day and is awake all night. She says she wishes she could get her sleep schedule different.
She's not unhappy all the time. She just seems to have lots of road blocks.
"I want to take a class. But I don't want to go alone. But I don't have any friends left to take a class with."
"I want to learn how to drive" We offer that Daddy can take her to a parking lot and teach her how to drive. "That's illegal. I want to be in the CIA when I grow up so I can't do anything illegal right now."
She's been thinking about college and is worrying about being prepared for that. She thinks Daddy can't teach her enough to be ready for college. She'd like to go to high school. She thinks Daddy can't teach her enough for that.
Hubby is home with the kids, and runs a business from our garage. We also have a two-day-a-week nanny/housekeeper. She is sweet and my daughter likes her. They interact a bit, but not lots, considering that daughter is mostly sleeping during the day.
I work full time. Nights are when I want to sleep. I find it challenging to balance feeding her, talking to her, and getting enough sleep. But, work is flexible and I can work from home, which is nice.
I would love some outside perspective on this and welcome your comments.
Thanks,
Elli
We've been unschooling for two years. Took the kids out of public school. Son, age 9, is doing fine, happy and carefree. Daughter, age 12, is not.
The way she is living right now reminds me of someone who is depressed. Depression runs in my family and I've struggle through it, many a time. This makes me feel worried.
She spends most of the day in bed, watching TV, playing WOW, playing on her phone, and watching reruns on the computer. Sometimes all at once. She hasn't showered in over a week, and this is typical these days. She eats in bed.
She signed up for a monthly ballroom dance class for kids that she did last year, and loved. She decided not to go, after buying new dresses and shoes to wear to the class. She says that she doesn't like to boy she liked last year and he was the reason she signed up again this year.
She signed up for two one-day art classes, and decided not to go.
She says she has cut off her old school friends because they talk about people behind their backs, because they don't get along with each other, or any other variety of reasons. She made some un-schooling friends last year, but doesn't want to see them anymore either. They live 40 minutes away and have only visited us once. She used to visit them weekly. Its been months since she's seen them.
She rarely goes outside.
She says she wants to go back to school. So next week we have an observation day at a small private school. She says she probably won't be able to make it because she sleeps all day and is awake all night. She says she wishes she could get her sleep schedule different.
She's not unhappy all the time. She just seems to have lots of road blocks.
"I want to take a class. But I don't want to go alone. But I don't have any friends left to take a class with."
"I want to learn how to drive" We offer that Daddy can take her to a parking lot and teach her how to drive. "That's illegal. I want to be in the CIA when I grow up so I can't do anything illegal right now."
She's been thinking about college and is worrying about being prepared for that. She thinks Daddy can't teach her enough to be ready for college. She'd like to go to high school. She thinks Daddy can't teach her enough for that.
Hubby is home with the kids, and runs a business from our garage. We also have a two-day-a-week nanny/housekeeper. She is sweet and my daughter likes her. They interact a bit, but not lots, considering that daughter is mostly sleeping during the day.
I work full time. Nights are when I want to sleep. I find it challenging to balance feeding her, talking to her, and getting enough sleep. But, work is flexible and I can work from home, which is nice.
I would love some outside perspective on this and welcome your comments.
Thanks,
Elli
catfish_friend
I am a lurker on this list, learning about unschooling. Ironically, my interest in unschooling stems partly from the fact that I had a lot of similarities to your 12 year old when I was in a public magnet high school for gifted kids. I sought out professional therapy on my own because my parents would not come with me to talk to my school guidance counselor, nor would they give me permission to see one on my own. Unfortunately, I found out by state law (Maryland)
catfish_friend
Sorry -- continued below...
On Nov 13, 2010, at 10:05 AM, catfish_friend <catfish_friend@...> wrote:
I am a lurker on this list, learning about unschooling. Ironically, my interest in unschooling stems partly from the fact that I had a lot of similarities to your 12 year old when I was in a public magnet high school for gifted kids. I sought out professional therapy on my own because my parents would not come with me to talk to my school guidance counselor, nor would they give me permission to see one on my own. Unfortunately, I found out by state law (Maryland)
as a minor, I was not allowed to seek counseling without parental permission. My (wise) high school guidance counselor suggested that the important thing for me was to get out of the house and get to college.
I was in one of the best public school districts in the country, "benefitting" from the most selective programs for "gifted" kids but I was uninspired by the accelerated math/science/computer science curriculum. I wanted to act. I only got typecast for minor roles in school plays so my passion led me to audition for professional theater in DC. Of course, my father told me that people who have brains use them and only rely on talents if they don't have brains. Of course, that did not change what I was passionate about.
I got cast in the children's theater at The Kennedy Center and got paid to perform, yet I was one depressed 16 year old. I got into a small college in Los Angeles and chose it partially in the hopes that I could work my way into the film business but as a director/writer/producer. Of course, I never could tell my parents that this was my intention and I even fooled myself that maybe I would become a doctor or psychneuroimmunologist. What I realized over time was that I loved editing the moving image and that I am really really good at it. Even more peculiar is that I am really good at managing a cutting room. And only recently (as I'm nearing 40) do I recognize how much I LIKE it!
My job is a unique, bizarre crossroads of art and technology, politics and collaboration. Order is created from chaos. I spend a prolonged, intense gestational period with a small group of people to share one story at a time with thousands or millions.
When I look back on my time in school, all I see is that there was everything to hold me back from what I would enjoy doing. When I was in high school, there was no opportunity to learn about editing movies. Neither was there any kind of subject or hobby that could come close to the description of the career I would come to enjoy.
I see my teenage depression as partly rooted in the kind of hopelessness that comes from not seeing a path from here and now to there and tomorrow. Fortunately (or unfortunately, depending on how you see it) I had parents who were mostly absent or only present enough to make comments like the brains vs. talents comment. I had to sink or swim and lucky me, I prefer to breathe air.
I don't know enough of your situation to really comment on your child's actions. I do know that I slept a lot, often becoming a night owl in the summers off from school. As much as I hated school, I enjoyed socializing and that motivated me to get to school at least 2/3 to 3/4 of my senior year. I stepped away from a lot of friendships as I got older. I didn't value make-up and trendy shopping and football and cheerleading and even the cool local progressive band concerts. I liked music that no one else liked. I really only felt I had 2 friends in a school of 2000 high school students. And I used to be popular and part of the "in crowd" in junior high -- this fed into my high school, too.
I guess I'd ask if your daughter is passionate about something in the things she does, or is it just an avenue of escape? I watched a TON of TV as a kid, but clearly, it was educating me for my future career that I didn't even know could be.
I'd also ask about your relationship to her -- is it possible she's making her schedule line up with your availability? Could she be possibly trying to ask for deeper connection with you?
And, is it possible that she needs to fail to succeed? For example, she mentions she wants to go to school but she thinks she can't get her sleep schedule together to make it happen. Maybe she needs to suffer the consequences of her sleep patterns so that she can take ownership of her bodily rhythms before she can take ownership for her own happiness...?
One thing I've come to believe pretty strongly is in our unique potential contribution to life on earth. And, I think school, along with culture/society only feeds the flock while neglecting the black sheep or lost little lamb. My struggle with trying to school or unschool my children is in trying to do what is best for them rather than be motivated by what I wish I had had...but I digress...
Hope this helps...
Peace,
Ceci
otherstar
From: Elli
Sent: Friday, November 12, 2010 9:07 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] help - depression
It is hard to tell whether or not she is depressed based on what you have posted. For me, unschooling is about having a deep enough connection with my girls that we can talk about anything. If they are mad or sad, we can talk about it. Two years may not be enough time to completely deschool. She may need more time. For that matter, you probably need more time too.
Connie
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sent: Friday, November 12, 2010 9:07 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] help - depression
>>>>She spends most of the day in bed, watching TV, playing WOW, playing on her phone, and watching reruns on the computer. Sometimes all at once. She hasn't showered in over a week, and this is typical these days. She eats in bed.<<<<If she isn't doing anything to get dirty, why does she need to shower? Do you offer to do other stuff with her? Does she genuinely enjoy doing these things?
>>>She rarely goes outside. <<<What kind of climate do you live in? My girls love it outside but only if it isn't too hot or too cold. I seem to recall that 12 was around the age that I quit doing as much stuff outside.
>>>>She says she wants to go back to school. So next week we have an observation day at a small private school. She says she probably won't be able to make it because she sleeps all day and is awake all night. She says she wishes she could get her sleep schedule different.<<<<Have you tried to help her get on a better schedule? When my girls want to do things but have gotten into a pattern of sleeping late, I will talk to them and we will work on getting up earlier and going to bed earlier. However, if there is no reason to get up, it is much harder for them to get out of bed. Having breakfast ready before I wake them up helps a lot. Planning interesting stuff helps them get up too.
>>>>She's not unhappy all the time. She just seems to have lots of road blocks.<<<<<Are you giving her lots of suggestions to help her get past those road blocks? Whenever we (as a family) have road blocks, we tend to brainstorm and come up with ways to get beyond the road blocks. There is no reason to let a kid be discouraged by road blocks. Help them find ways of moving beyond that.
>>>"I want to take a class. But I don't want to go alone. But I don't have any friends left to take a class with."<<<Why can't you or your husband offer to take classes with her? My husband took karate with our girls for a while because they weren't comfortable taking the classes alone. What kind of a relationship does she have with her little brother? Could they take some classes together?
>>>"I want to learn how to drive" We offer that Daddy can take her to a parking lot and teach her how to drive. "That's illegal. I want to be in the CIA when I grow up so I can't do anything illegal right now."<<<<She is 12. She has a very valid point. Perhaps you could take her to a go kart track where she could learn to drive go karts. That is perfectly legal and some of the skills of driving a go kart can transfer over to driving a car. What about getting her a driver's handbook to study the laws? There are also a lot of simulation games that she could play.
>>>>She's been thinking about college and is worrying about being prepared for that. She thinks Daddy can't teach her enough to be ready for college. She'd like to go to high school. She thinks Daddy can't teach her enough for that.<<<<Have you offered to help her find learning materials that will help her learn what she things she needs to learn? Have you looked into classes at any of the local community colleges? There are tons of ways for kids to learn stuff from people other that their parents. What are you doing to help her?
>>>>Hubby is home with the kids, and runs a business from our garage. We also have a two-day-a-week nanny/housekeeper. She is sweet and my daughter likes her. They interact a bit, but not lots, considering that daughter is mostly sleeping during the day.<<<<Are the kids pretty much left to themselves during the day? If I was a kid and was not in school, I think I would sleep all day if I did not have anybody to interact with and nowhere interesting to go. How much time does your husband spend with the kids during the day? What do they do together? Does the nanny do anything with the kids at all?
>>>I work full time. Nights are when I want to sleep. I find it challenging to balance feeding her, talking to her, and getting enough sleep. But, work is flexible and I can work from home, which is nice.<<<If I felt like I was a challenge to my mom, I might be depressed too. You have stated, "I find it challenging to balance feeding her, talking to her, and getting enough sleep." You have phrased everything kind of passively as if you are just there. Do you eat with her or are you merely feeding her to get her out of your hair? Are you talking to her or are you talking with her and really listening to what she has to say? While with her, are you thinking about going to sleep or are you really engaged and fully present? If your work is flexible, would it be possible to try to move your work around so that it lines up more with your daughter's schedule? Would it be possible to take your daughter to work with you some time? I remember being 12. I seem to recall that it was when I was trying transition from being a little kid to being more grown up, and I felt stuck between two worlds.
It is hard to tell whether or not she is depressed based on what you have posted. For me, unschooling is about having a deep enough connection with my girls that we can talk about anything. If they are mad or sad, we can talk about it. Two years may not be enough time to completely deschool. She may need more time. For that matter, you probably need more time too.
Connie
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
MargaretC
Has your daughter been like this the whole 2 years or could it be developmental?
It is hopeful that she is planning her career in the CIA! : )
Good luck!
Margaret
It is hopeful that she is planning her career in the CIA! : )
Good luck!
Margaret
--- In [email protected], "Elli" <elinorsparks@...> wrote:
>
> Hi -
>
> We've been unschooling for two years. Took the kids out of public school. Son, age 9, is doing fine, happy and carefree. Daughter, age 12, is not.
>
> The way she is living right now reminds me of someone who is depressed. Depression runs in my family and I've struggle through it, many a time. This makes me feel worried.
>
> She spends most of the day in bed, watching TV, playing WOW, playing on her phone, and watching reruns on the computer. Sometimes all at once. She hasn't showered in over a week, and this is typical these days. She eats in bed.
>
> She signed up for a monthly ballroom dance class for kids that she did last year, and loved. She decided not to go, after buying new dresses and shoes to wear to the class. She says that she doesn't like to boy she liked last year and he was the reason she signed up again this year.
>
> She signed up for two one-day art classes, and decided not to go.
>
> She says she has cut off her old school friends because they talk about people behind their backs, because they don't get along with each other, or any other variety of reasons. She made some un-schooling friends last year, but doesn't want to see them anymore either. They live 40 minutes away and have only visited us once. She used to visit them weekly. Its been months since she's seen them.
>
> She rarely goes outside.
>
> She says she wants to go back to school. So next week we have an observation day at a small private school. She says she probably won't be able to make it because she sleeps all day and is awake all night. She says she wishes she could get her sleep schedule different.
>
> She's not unhappy all the time. She just seems to have lots of road blocks.
>
> "I want to take a class. But I don't want to go alone. But I don't have any friends left to take a class with."
>
> "I want to learn how to drive" We offer that Daddy can take her to a parking lot and teach her how to drive. "That's illegal. I want to be in the CIA when I grow up so I can't do anything illegal right now."
>
> She's been thinking about college and is worrying about being prepared for that. She thinks Daddy can't teach her enough to be ready for college. She'd like to go to high school. She thinks Daddy can't teach her enough for that.
>
> Hubby is home with the kids, and runs a business from our garage. We also have a two-day-a-week nanny/housekeeper. She is sweet and my daughter likes her. They interact a bit, but not lots, considering that daughter is mostly sleeping during the day.
>
> I work full time. Nights are when I want to sleep. I find it challenging to balance feeding her, talking to her, and getting enough sleep. But, work is flexible and I can work from home, which is nice.
>
> I would love some outside perspective on this and welcome your comments.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Elli
>
permie_bird
What you are describing about your daughter's sleep schedule sounds like something my daughter went through.
My daughter suffers from Delayed Sleep Phase Syndrome, DSPS.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delayed_sleep_phase_syndrome
When she was 12 she had gotten to the point where she could not sleep until about 6-8 am in the morning, and she was a light sleeper so her attempts to sleep all day didn't work very well so she was only getting 2-3 hours of real sleep each night. She has always had sleep problems, but as she became a teen they got much worse.
This made her very depressed, and she almost couldn't function. Then as I was researching ways to help her sleep, I found out she has all the symptoms of DSPS, and the way they confirm the disorder was exactly how things would go if she wasn't allowed to sleep one day then she might fall asleep that night as a reasonable time, but the next night she was back to the fall asleep at 6am schedule. We tried homeopathy, and herbal sleep aides, but to no luck. Then we tried melatonin.
Melatonin has made my daughter's life much better. She is no longer depressed, she goes to sleep around midnight, and wakes around 8-11 in the morning, which is good for a teen. She is happy and active, I am completely thrilled about how much better she is. It took us some time to sort out her melatonin needs, she uses timed release melatonin, but for 3 years she hasn't had sleep problems and she manages her melatonin use on her own. She is well aware of how much better it makes her life, and she wants to keep that going.
They way you describe your daughter's sleep patterns sounds a great deal like may daughter before we figured out she needs melatonin. She didn't have a computer in her room, we don't have any TVs, or cell phones, but she would stay up and read all night and re arrange her room weekly, now she sleeps at night and is happy and social when awake. We both could not be happier with how much life has improved.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melatonin
Moyra
My daughter suffers from Delayed Sleep Phase Syndrome, DSPS.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delayed_sleep_phase_syndrome
When she was 12 she had gotten to the point where she could not sleep until about 6-8 am in the morning, and she was a light sleeper so her attempts to sleep all day didn't work very well so she was only getting 2-3 hours of real sleep each night. She has always had sleep problems, but as she became a teen they got much worse.
This made her very depressed, and she almost couldn't function. Then as I was researching ways to help her sleep, I found out she has all the symptoms of DSPS, and the way they confirm the disorder was exactly how things would go if she wasn't allowed to sleep one day then she might fall asleep that night as a reasonable time, but the next night she was back to the fall asleep at 6am schedule. We tried homeopathy, and herbal sleep aides, but to no luck. Then we tried melatonin.
Melatonin has made my daughter's life much better. She is no longer depressed, she goes to sleep around midnight, and wakes around 8-11 in the morning, which is good for a teen. She is happy and active, I am completely thrilled about how much better she is. It took us some time to sort out her melatonin needs, she uses timed release melatonin, but for 3 years she hasn't had sleep problems and she manages her melatonin use on her own. She is well aware of how much better it makes her life, and she wants to keep that going.
They way you describe your daughter's sleep patterns sounds a great deal like may daughter before we figured out she needs melatonin. She didn't have a computer in her room, we don't have any TVs, or cell phones, but she would stay up and read all night and re arrange her room weekly, now she sleeps at night and is happy and social when awake. We both could not be happier with how much life has improved.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melatonin
Moyra