Help needed with unschooling community issue
amy.maus
I hope I'll be forgiven for posting this under an anonymous name. I have promised my child to preserve their privacy, but we'd also both like to get some input. We're having a serious problem with our unschooling community, and I don't know how to get advice except within that same community. I'm being vague on identifying details. So, here we are.
My teenage child has been having serious issues with a long time "friend." This friend is a popular older teenager in the unschooling community, and is the child of popular and notable unschooling parents. "Friend" has decided that they don't like my child anymore, for reasons none of my family understands, and in addition to no longer including my child in gatherings of unschoolers, has encouraged other unschoolers to ostracize my child.
This has led to great depression on the part of my child, including self-injury and feelings of being suicidal. With support this is getting better, and we have also discovered that there are lots of kids this has happened to with this individual. The parents seem to pay no attention to what their child does to other kids.
So what do we do? Ours is such a small community, even nationally, and this family is much more known and central than ours. My child used to love gatherings and conferences, but no longer feels like they're welcome, because this other kid is at most of them. Should we just exclude ourselves for the rest of my child's youth, and lose all friends? We hear so much about bullying in schools. What do we do when unschoolers are the bullies?
Any ideas? Thank you.
My teenage child has been having serious issues with a long time "friend." This friend is a popular older teenager in the unschooling community, and is the child of popular and notable unschooling parents. "Friend" has decided that they don't like my child anymore, for reasons none of my family understands, and in addition to no longer including my child in gatherings of unschoolers, has encouraged other unschoolers to ostracize my child.
This has led to great depression on the part of my child, including self-injury and feelings of being suicidal. With support this is getting better, and we have also discovered that there are lots of kids this has happened to with this individual. The parents seem to pay no attention to what their child does to other kids.
So what do we do? Ours is such a small community, even nationally, and this family is much more known and central than ours. My child used to love gatherings and conferences, but no longer feels like they're welcome, because this other kid is at most of them. Should we just exclude ourselves for the rest of my child's youth, and lose all friends? We hear so much about bullying in schools. What do we do when unschoolers are the bullies?
Any ideas? Thank you.
BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
Do you think the parents of this child would not be open to youcoming to talk
about what is going on?
Alex Polikowsky
________________________________
From: amy.maus <amy.maus@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Sun, November 7, 2010 4:03:54 PM
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Help needed with unschooling community issue
I hope I'll be forgiven for posting this under an anonymous name. I have
promised my child to preserve their privacy, but we'd also both like to get some
input. We're having a serious problem with our unschooling community, and I
don't know how to get advice except within that same community. I'm being vague
on identifying details. So, here we are.
My teenage child has been having serious issues with a long time "friend." This
friend is a popular older teenager in the unschooling community, and is the
child of popular and notable unschooling parents. "Friend" has decided that they
don't like my child anymore, for reasons none of my family understands, and in
addition to no longer including my child in gatherings of unschoolers, has
encouraged other unschoolers to ostracize my child.
This has led to great depression on the part of my child, including self-injury
and feelings of being suicidal. With support this is getting better, and we have
also discovered that there are lots of kids this has happened to with this
individual. The parents seem to pay no attention to what their child does to
other kids.
So what do we do? Ours is such a small community, even nationally, and this
family is much more known and central than ours. My child used to love
gatherings and conferences, but no longer feels like they're welcome, because
this other kid is at most of them. Should we just exclude ourselves for the rest
of my child's youth, and lose all friends? We hear so much about bullying in
schools. What do we do when unschoolers are the bullies?
Any ideas? Thank you.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
about what is going on?
Alex Polikowsky
________________________________
From: amy.maus <amy.maus@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Sun, November 7, 2010 4:03:54 PM
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Help needed with unschooling community issue
I hope I'll be forgiven for posting this under an anonymous name. I have
promised my child to preserve their privacy, but we'd also both like to get some
input. We're having a serious problem with our unschooling community, and I
don't know how to get advice except within that same community. I'm being vague
on identifying details. So, here we are.
My teenage child has been having serious issues with a long time "friend." This
friend is a popular older teenager in the unschooling community, and is the
child of popular and notable unschooling parents. "Friend" has decided that they
don't like my child anymore, for reasons none of my family understands, and in
addition to no longer including my child in gatherings of unschoolers, has
encouraged other unschoolers to ostracize my child.
This has led to great depression on the part of my child, including self-injury
and feelings of being suicidal. With support this is getting better, and we have
also discovered that there are lots of kids this has happened to with this
individual. The parents seem to pay no attention to what their child does to
other kids.
So what do we do? Ours is such a small community, even nationally, and this
family is much more known and central than ours. My child used to love
gatherings and conferences, but no longer feels like they're welcome, because
this other kid is at most of them. Should we just exclude ourselves for the rest
of my child's youth, and lose all friends? We hear so much about bullying in
schools. What do we do when unschoolers are the bullies?
Any ideas? Thank you.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Nancy Valimaki
Here's a paradigm shift for you that I just learned and it's offered a new way for me and my family to be more empowered in life... This is a brief version of Byron Katie's "The Work". If you are not familiar with her you can look her up on YouTube or get her books from the library. If this does not sound right for you, that's okay. Only use this only if it feels right for you.
Help you and your child be empowered in this situation. Does you child really need to be friends with this child? Really? There aren't any other teens in your group your child can connect with?
Are the parents of this teen really unaware or uninterested in what's happening? Really? Have you talked with the parents directly? If so, and they really don't care, why would you want to associate with them anyway?
Others in your group have had similar experiences with this teen and and they decided it's okay for their kids to be treated that way? Really? If so, why? What's that teaching their kid? And, if it's true, do you really want to be a part of a group who treats others poorly? Why? Is that the kind of socialization you want to teach your teen?
If all the above is really true, why don't you all get together and create a new group/community where you can all be respectful to each other? Or you could simply start a group yourself. It's easy to do. And, if what you are saying is really true, you will have many new members quickly.
Take responsibility here. Show yourself and your child there are options. You and your child are not victims unless you allow yourself to be.
I hope this is useful or helpful for you.
Nancy
Help you and your child be empowered in this situation. Does you child really need to be friends with this child? Really? There aren't any other teens in your group your child can connect with?
Are the parents of this teen really unaware or uninterested in what's happening? Really? Have you talked with the parents directly? If so, and they really don't care, why would you want to associate with them anyway?
Others in your group have had similar experiences with this teen and and they decided it's okay for their kids to be treated that way? Really? If so, why? What's that teaching their kid? And, if it's true, do you really want to be a part of a group who treats others poorly? Why? Is that the kind of socialization you want to teach your teen?
If all the above is really true, why don't you all get together and create a new group/community where you can all be respectful to each other? Or you could simply start a group yourself. It's easy to do. And, if what you are saying is really true, you will have many new members quickly.
Take responsibility here. Show yourself and your child there are options. You and your child are not victims unless you allow yourself to be.
I hope this is useful or helpful for you.
Nancy
--- In [email protected], "amy.maus" <amy.maus@...> wrote:
>
> I hope I'll be forgiven for posting this under an anonymous name. I have promised my child to preserve their privacy, but we'd also both like to get some input. We're having a serious problem with our unschooling community, and I don't know how to get advice except within that same community. I'm being vague on identifying details. So, here we are.
>
> My teenage child has been having serious issues with a long time "friend." This friend is a popular older teenager in the unschooling community, and is the child of popular and notable unschooling parents. "Friend" has decided that they don't like my child anymore, for reasons none of my family understands, and in addition to no longer including my child in gatherings of unschoolers, has encouraged other unschoolers to ostracize my child.
>
> This has led to great depression on the part of my child, including self-injury and feelings of being suicidal. With support this is getting better, and we have also discovered that there are lots of kids this has happened to with this individual. The parents seem to pay no attention to what their child does to other kids.
>
> So what do we do? Ours is such a small community, even nationally, and this family is much more known and central than ours. My child used to love gatherings and conferences, but no longer feels like they're welcome, because this other kid is at most of them. Should we just exclude ourselves for the rest of my child's youth, and lose all friends? We hear so much about bullying in schools. What do we do when unschoolers are the bullies?
>
> Any ideas? Thank you.
>
Karen Swanay
I think it's important to say what sex your child is as well as that of the
bully. Relational aggression in females is quite common...less so in
males. And it's important because if it's RA (and these are girls) then
there are more kids involved in this than just one. A Queen Bee has to have
her support system to make RA work well. If that's the case, then there are
MANY other parents you could speak to. Those girls who are supporting the
Queen Bee are weak and complicit in the RA. As a parent, I'd want to know
if my daughter was so weak she would participate in this kind of
psychological/emotional abuse. (Because not only is it not nice to the
target girl, but that means my child will go along with anything and I would
want to know that.)
If these are boys, then it's traditionally called bullying but *usually*
it's much less severe because boys are usually more open about their
negative feelings, they might have a fight and then it's usually over. (As
a parent I'd still want to know if my kid was a party to this behavior too.)
I also think we toss the term "teen" around too freely. A 13 yr old is
technically a teen but is MILES away from a 17 yr old developmentally. How
old are these "teens"? Because if they are young teens, they really are
more like little kids than smaller sized adults. If they are older kids,
say 17 or so...then it's less about the parents and more about the kid.
And I'd feel like I wasn't being honest if I didn't put this in this post so
here goes. If your child has turned to self-injury and suicidal ideation
over being snubbed by one kid/multiple kids but your child is unschooled and
supported in all other areas of their life, then you need to get your kid to
counseling because your child has WAY more going on that just this one
situation. Sure, no one likes to be snubbed/bullied but since this isn't
school and your kid isn't exposed to this situation 8 hours a day 185 days a
year, it seems to me to be a VERY extreme reaction to an unpleasant
situation. I'M NOT SAYING YOUR KID HAS NO RIGHT TO BE UPSET!! I'm saying
that talking about killing yourself and cutting is way too severe a reaction
for the situation AS YOU DESCRIBE IT. (And if these are girls we are
talking about I'd be sure to look at your child for signs of an eating
disorder or BDD because this reaction is just too strong if your child is
mentally healthy and robust at all other times.)
LET ME REPEAT...that doesn't mean that your kid shouldn't be upset. That
doesn't mean that the kid that is doing this isn't a horrid human being.
That doesn't mean that if her (I'm assuming) parents know she's like this
and they haven't done anything about it that they aren't complicit and also
horrible people. (Yeah that statement will likely get me in trouble but I
think if as a parent you support RA/Bullying in your kid...you are a
horrible person.) BUT I am saying that if your child has been pushed out of
their primary social group but that group attendance was only say about 3%
of your child's total yearly socializing time then trying to kill herself
and cutting is a sign that there are other, perhaps much more severe
maladaptive behaviors in your child that you should be vigilant about
attending to.
Personally, I'd go straight to the parents of this precious darling and tell
them what's going on. And to support my child I'd show her that if there
are ugly people about...MOVE. Remove yourselves from the group. Gather all
the other kids this has happened to and start your own gatherings. BOOT the
bully from the group. If, as you say, there are a bunch of kids this has
happened to then there are a bunch of kids looking for their primary social
group back. Start it yourself. AND if there are a bunch of other kids this
has happened to, then go as a group of parents and say to the bully's
parents...."Darling Jane here has taken to terrorizing all of our
children." If those parents, popular or not can look into the eyes of 8
other families and see that everyone has had enough of this girl and her
venom, and they do nothing....then as I said it's time to start a new
group. However...if those other parents won't speak up...then they are also
weak and complicit. And they are willing to sacrifice their children to be
"popular" with the "popular" parents. And should you really be a party to a
group like that? I would think not.
If these are girls I recommend a book called "Queen Bees and Wannabes"
http://www.amazon.com/dp/0307454444/ref=sc_vs__Queen_2520bees Also "Odd Girl
Out"
http://www.amazon.com/Odd-Girl-Out-Culture-Aggression/dp/0156027348/ref=pd_bxgy_b_text_bAlso
"Queen Bee moms and Kingpin Dads"
http://www.amazon.com/Queen-Bee-Moms-Kingpin-Dads/dp/140008301X/ref=pd_sim_b_8And
finally "Mean Girls Grown Up"
http://www.amazon.com/Mean-Girls-Grown-Afraid---Bees/dp/0470168757/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1289223057&sr=1-1
Karen
From House, MD discussing parents of a child with Autism --
Dr Allison Cameron:Is it so wrong for them to want to have a normal child?
It's normal to want to be normal.
House: Spoken like a true circle queen. See, skinny socially privileged
white people get to draw this neat little circle, and everyone inside the
circle is normal, anyone outside the circle should be beaten, broken and
reset so they can be brought into the circle. Failing that, they should be
institutionalized or worse, pitied.
bully. Relational aggression in females is quite common...less so in
males. And it's important because if it's RA (and these are girls) then
there are more kids involved in this than just one. A Queen Bee has to have
her support system to make RA work well. If that's the case, then there are
MANY other parents you could speak to. Those girls who are supporting the
Queen Bee are weak and complicit in the RA. As a parent, I'd want to know
if my daughter was so weak she would participate in this kind of
psychological/emotional abuse. (Because not only is it not nice to the
target girl, but that means my child will go along with anything and I would
want to know that.)
If these are boys, then it's traditionally called bullying but *usually*
it's much less severe because boys are usually more open about their
negative feelings, they might have a fight and then it's usually over. (As
a parent I'd still want to know if my kid was a party to this behavior too.)
I also think we toss the term "teen" around too freely. A 13 yr old is
technically a teen but is MILES away from a 17 yr old developmentally. How
old are these "teens"? Because if they are young teens, they really are
more like little kids than smaller sized adults. If they are older kids,
say 17 or so...then it's less about the parents and more about the kid.
And I'd feel like I wasn't being honest if I didn't put this in this post so
here goes. If your child has turned to self-injury and suicidal ideation
over being snubbed by one kid/multiple kids but your child is unschooled and
supported in all other areas of their life, then you need to get your kid to
counseling because your child has WAY more going on that just this one
situation. Sure, no one likes to be snubbed/bullied but since this isn't
school and your kid isn't exposed to this situation 8 hours a day 185 days a
year, it seems to me to be a VERY extreme reaction to an unpleasant
situation. I'M NOT SAYING YOUR KID HAS NO RIGHT TO BE UPSET!! I'm saying
that talking about killing yourself and cutting is way too severe a reaction
for the situation AS YOU DESCRIBE IT. (And if these are girls we are
talking about I'd be sure to look at your child for signs of an eating
disorder or BDD because this reaction is just too strong if your child is
mentally healthy and robust at all other times.)
LET ME REPEAT...that doesn't mean that your kid shouldn't be upset. That
doesn't mean that the kid that is doing this isn't a horrid human being.
That doesn't mean that if her (I'm assuming) parents know she's like this
and they haven't done anything about it that they aren't complicit and also
horrible people. (Yeah that statement will likely get me in trouble but I
think if as a parent you support RA/Bullying in your kid...you are a
horrible person.) BUT I am saying that if your child has been pushed out of
their primary social group but that group attendance was only say about 3%
of your child's total yearly socializing time then trying to kill herself
and cutting is a sign that there are other, perhaps much more severe
maladaptive behaviors in your child that you should be vigilant about
attending to.
Personally, I'd go straight to the parents of this precious darling and tell
them what's going on. And to support my child I'd show her that if there
are ugly people about...MOVE. Remove yourselves from the group. Gather all
the other kids this has happened to and start your own gatherings. BOOT the
bully from the group. If, as you say, there are a bunch of kids this has
happened to then there are a bunch of kids looking for their primary social
group back. Start it yourself. AND if there are a bunch of other kids this
has happened to, then go as a group of parents and say to the bully's
parents...."Darling Jane here has taken to terrorizing all of our
children." If those parents, popular or not can look into the eyes of 8
other families and see that everyone has had enough of this girl and her
venom, and they do nothing....then as I said it's time to start a new
group. However...if those other parents won't speak up...then they are also
weak and complicit. And they are willing to sacrifice their children to be
"popular" with the "popular" parents. And should you really be a party to a
group like that? I would think not.
If these are girls I recommend a book called "Queen Bees and Wannabes"
http://www.amazon.com/dp/0307454444/ref=sc_vs__Queen_2520bees Also "Odd Girl
Out"
http://www.amazon.com/Odd-Girl-Out-Culture-Aggression/dp/0156027348/ref=pd_bxgy_b_text_bAlso
"Queen Bee moms and Kingpin Dads"
http://www.amazon.com/Queen-Bee-Moms-Kingpin-Dads/dp/140008301X/ref=pd_sim_b_8And
finally "Mean Girls Grown Up"
http://www.amazon.com/Mean-Girls-Grown-Afraid---Bees/dp/0470168757/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1289223057&sr=1-1
Karen
From House, MD discussing parents of a child with Autism --
Dr Allison Cameron:Is it so wrong for them to want to have a normal child?
It's normal to want to be normal.
House: Spoken like a true circle queen. See, skinny socially privileged
white people get to draw this neat little circle, and everyone inside the
circle is normal, anyone outside the circle should be beaten, broken and
reset so they can be brought into the circle. Failing that, they should be
institutionalized or worse, pitied.
On Sun, Nov 7, 2010 at 4:03 PM, amy.maus <amy.maus@...> wrote:
>
>
> I hope I'll be forgiven for posting this under an anonymous name. I have
> promised my child to preserve their privacy, but we'd also both like to get
> some input. We're having a serious problem with our unschooling community,
> and I don't know how to get advice except within that same community. I'm
> being vague on identifying details. So, here we are.
>
> My teenage child has been having serious issues with a long time "friend."
> This friend is a popular older teenager in the unschooling community, and is
> the child of popular and notable unschooling parents. "Friend" has decided
> that they don't like my child anymore, for reasons none of my family
> understands, and in addition to no longer including my child in gatherings
> of unschoolers, has encouraged other unschoolers to ostracize my child.
>
> This has led to great depression on the part of my child, including
> self-injury and feelings of being suicidal. With support this is getting
> better, and we have also discovered that there are lots of kids this has
> happened to with this individual. The parents seem to pay no attention to
> what their child does to other kids.
>
> So what do we do? Ours is such a small community, even nationally, and this
> family is much more known and central than ours. My child used to love
> gatherings and conferences, but no longer feels like they're welcome,
> because this other kid is at most of them. Should we just exclude ourselves
> for the rest of my child's youth, and lose all friends? We hear so much
> about bullying in schools. What do we do when unschoolers are the bullies?
>
> Any ideas? Thank you.
>
>
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
plaidpanties666
"amy.maus" <amy.maus@...> wrote:
I'm glad its getting better. Keep in mind, though, that while all of this may have been a trigger, depression this serious doesn't just arise out of being snubbed socially. There are bigger and longer standing issues at work and its important to look for ways to help that are much more far reaching than this one issue. Don't let the social stuff be a "scapegoat" for other problems.
You could start a support group. YOu could organize events and outtings to be inclusive of some of these other kids. By saying the parents of the one child are "prominent" I take it to mean they do a lot of organizing, and that may be part of the problem. Other people need to step up and redistribute the work load of setting things up for local unschoolers and give this family a break.
Also, keep in mind that its not necessary to include everyone all the time. That goes as much for your kid as other kids - every unschooling kid in the local community isn't going to get along with every other, or have the same interests. Especially as kids get older, that can mean that "unschooling" events are less appealing to kids who have nothing in common but unschooling itself. So orgainize activities that are interest based, not "lets do something fun for/with unschoolers".
Do they know? Its surprisingly common for people to not tell parents about issues with their kids and yet assume the parents know. Just because people are unschooling doesn't mean they haven't succumed to that particular mistake. Assume the parents don't know what's going on. How can you let them know their teen is having some social problems and needs more support? Are you uncomfortable approaching these parents and starting a conversation with them?
---Meredith (Mo 9, Ray 17)
>> This has led to great depression on the part of my child, including self-injury and feelings of being suicidal. With support this is getting better***************
I'm glad its getting better. Keep in mind, though, that while all of this may have been a trigger, depression this serious doesn't just arise out of being snubbed socially. There are bigger and longer standing issues at work and its important to look for ways to help that are much more far reaching than this one issue. Don't let the social stuff be a "scapegoat" for other problems.
>>we have also discovered that there are lots of kids this has happened to with this individual**********
You could start a support group. YOu could organize events and outtings to be inclusive of some of these other kids. By saying the parents of the one child are "prominent" I take it to mean they do a lot of organizing, and that may be part of the problem. Other people need to step up and redistribute the work load of setting things up for local unschoolers and give this family a break.
Also, keep in mind that its not necessary to include everyone all the time. That goes as much for your kid as other kids - every unschooling kid in the local community isn't going to get along with every other, or have the same interests. Especially as kids get older, that can mean that "unschooling" events are less appealing to kids who have nothing in common but unschooling itself. So orgainize activities that are interest based, not "lets do something fun for/with unschoolers".
>>The parents seem to pay no attention to what their child does to other kids.***************
Do they know? Its surprisingly common for people to not tell parents about issues with their kids and yet assume the parents know. Just because people are unschooling doesn't mean they haven't succumed to that particular mistake. Assume the parents don't know what's going on. How can you let them know their teen is having some social problems and needs more support? Are you uncomfortable approaching these parents and starting a conversation with them?
---Meredith (Mo 9, Ray 17)
Sylvia
I think Karen made some good points.
We've come across a few queen bees in our time in the homeschooling community. We have also encountered situations where a child was mean to other, and excluded others, without really having the sway of a queen bee. Both situations are painful, and can leave you and your child feeling powerless. It's the kind of scenario that tends to put us back into our high school roles, especially if we suffered the same slights as our child.
I agree that if your child is so upset as to be talking about self-injury or suicide, you may need more help walking thru this time than any online group can offer. Some children are more sensitive than others. Some adults are very sensitive. I have two children who fit that description, and both quickly can devolve to reactions that are self-endangering, tho not specifically injurious, so I know that sometimes one stress is all it takes. It's an intensity of feeling my children get from me. For me and my children, the challenge is finding a solution that helps my child safe face (that's not really the best descriptive term, but it's the best I have right now. No one wants their private pain made public, and few children want Mom to make the other children be nice to them).
As to talking to the parents of the child, it's likely you know better than anyone else whether this is an option. I have seen parents who -- on principle -- will not involve themselves in responding to any of their child's social behaviors. This has left me unwilling to speak to some parents, choosing instead to help my child move thru and beyond his loss and help him to find new friends. Only you can know whether or not speaking to other parents would help in your situation.
Some thoughts I had....
Surely this child doesn't attend EVERY unschooling conference or gathering. Are there gatherings -- online or in person -- where your child can find new friendships, either among homeschoolers, unschoolers or even mainstream kids with similar interests?
How about among the previously spurned friends? Do any of those children have anything in common with your child?
Or you could start a new group, or just smaller gatherings with friends you know to be safe.
You could explore other groups where your child may have a common interest. Unschoolers don't have to be the only friend pool you draw from (tho I have one child who simply won't even try other sources, so I know that can be a challenge).
Also, given how deeply this has upset your child, maybe it's time for a season of at-home family time. With the holidays coming up, it might be just the time to snuggle in and provide your child with a safe, warm place to regain confidence and to find what she needs to move thru this pain; to learn about and appreciate her own value?
It it is so hard to see our children in pain. We've walked thru some unimaginable pain this past year with one of our sons, and in previous years with another son. I know there is a brighter day on the other side.
Sylvia
We've come across a few queen bees in our time in the homeschooling community. We have also encountered situations where a child was mean to other, and excluded others, without really having the sway of a queen bee. Both situations are painful, and can leave you and your child feeling powerless. It's the kind of scenario that tends to put us back into our high school roles, especially if we suffered the same slights as our child.
I agree that if your child is so upset as to be talking about self-injury or suicide, you may need more help walking thru this time than any online group can offer. Some children are more sensitive than others. Some adults are very sensitive. I have two children who fit that description, and both quickly can devolve to reactions that are self-endangering, tho not specifically injurious, so I know that sometimes one stress is all it takes. It's an intensity of feeling my children get from me. For me and my children, the challenge is finding a solution that helps my child safe face (that's not really the best descriptive term, but it's the best I have right now. No one wants their private pain made public, and few children want Mom to make the other children be nice to them).
As to talking to the parents of the child, it's likely you know better than anyone else whether this is an option. I have seen parents who -- on principle -- will not involve themselves in responding to any of their child's social behaviors. This has left me unwilling to speak to some parents, choosing instead to help my child move thru and beyond his loss and help him to find new friends. Only you can know whether or not speaking to other parents would help in your situation.
Some thoughts I had....
Surely this child doesn't attend EVERY unschooling conference or gathering. Are there gatherings -- online or in person -- where your child can find new friendships, either among homeschoolers, unschoolers or even mainstream kids with similar interests?
How about among the previously spurned friends? Do any of those children have anything in common with your child?
Or you could start a new group, or just smaller gatherings with friends you know to be safe.
You could explore other groups where your child may have a common interest. Unschoolers don't have to be the only friend pool you draw from (tho I have one child who simply won't even try other sources, so I know that can be a challenge).
Also, given how deeply this has upset your child, maybe it's time for a season of at-home family time. With the holidays coming up, it might be just the time to snuggle in and provide your child with a safe, warm place to regain confidence and to find what she needs to move thru this pain; to learn about and appreciate her own value?
It it is so hard to see our children in pain. We've walked thru some unimaginable pain this past year with one of our sons, and in previous years with another son. I know there is a brighter day on the other side.
Sylvia
lylaw
although I agree with some of what you say about more possibly going on with the excluded kid, to turn to such drastic reactions, etc., I find the sarcasm and use of overly judgmental words like “darling” and “terrorizing” to be really dismissive of the depth and complexity that contributes to any social group dynamic. in addition, school based labels like “queen bee” aren’t very useful and are dismissive of the other person’s experience –we have no idea what is really going on, because of the lack of details, and the one sided nature of the story, by definition, as being told by one side. we know so little – about the child of the original poster, OR about the child who has been involved with excluding her, that it’s really not possible to know what is really happening.
i , too, was confused by why this mother hasn’t reached out, with her child, and tried to problem solve with the other families, or at least attempted to gain more insight into what might be driving the situation.
that is why the only helpful thing I could imagine is to connect with the other parents (and/or teens, if the teens are older) and to help the excluded child advocate for themselves and find out the full picture.
lyla
From: Karen Swanay
Sent: Monday, November 08, 2010 5:31 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Help needed with unschooling community issue
I think it's important to say what sex your child is as well as that of the
bully. Relational aggression in females is quite common...less so in
males. And it's important because if it's RA (and these are girls) then
there are more kids involved in this than just one. A Queen Bee has to have
her support system to make RA work well. If that's the case, then there are
MANY other parents you could speak to. Those girls who are supporting the
Queen Bee are weak and complicit in the RA. As a parent, I'd want to know
if my daughter was so weak she would participate in this kind of
psychological/emotional abuse. (Because not only is it not nice to the
target girl, but that means my child will go along with anything and I would
want to know that.)
If these are boys, then it's traditionally called bullying but *usually*
it's much less severe because boys are usually more open about their
negative feelings, they might have a fight and then it's usually over. (As
a parent I'd still want to know if my kid was a party to this behavior too.)
I also think we toss the term "teen" around too freely. A 13 yr old is
technically a teen but is MILES away from a 17 yr old developmentally. How
old are these "teens"? Because if they are young teens, they really are
more like little kids than smaller sized adults. If they are older kids,
say 17 or so...then it's less about the parents and more about the kid.
And I'd feel like I wasn't being honest if I didn't put this in this post so
here goes. If your child has turned to self-injury and suicidal ideation
over being snubbed by one kid/multiple kids but your child is unschooled and
supported in all other areas of their life, then you need to get your kid to
counseling because your child has WAY more going on that just this one
situation. Sure, no one likes to be snubbed/bullied but since this isn't
school and your kid isn't exposed to this situation 8 hours a day 185 days a
year, it seems to me to be a VERY extreme reaction to an unpleasant
situation. I'M NOT SAYING YOUR KID HAS NO RIGHT TO BE UPSET!! I'm saying
that talking about killing yourself and cutting is way too severe a reaction
for the situation AS YOU DESCRIBE IT. (And if these are girls we are
talking about I'd be sure to look at your child for signs of an eating
disorder or BDD because this reaction is just too strong if your child is
mentally healthy and robust at all other times.)
LET ME REPEAT...that doesn't mean that your kid shouldn't be upset. That
doesn't mean that the kid that is doing this isn't a horrid human being.
That doesn't mean that if her (I'm assuming) parents know she's like this
and they haven't done anything about it that they aren't complicit and also
horrible people. (Yeah that statement will likely get me in trouble but I
think if as a parent you support RA/Bullying in your kid...you are a
horrible person.) BUT I am saying that if your child has been pushed out of
their primary social group but that group attendance was only say about 3%
of your child's total yearly socializing time then trying to kill herself
and cutting is a sign that there are other, perhaps much more severe
maladaptive behaviors in your child that you should be vigilant about
attending to.
Personally, I'd go straight to the parents of this precious darling and tell
them what's going on. And to support my child I'd show her that if there
are ugly people about...MOVE. Remove yourselves from the group. Gather all
the other kids this has happened to and start your own gatherings. BOOT the
bully from the group. If, as you say, there are a bunch of kids this has
happened to then there are a bunch of kids looking for their primary social
group back. Start it yourself. AND if there are a bunch of other kids this
has happened to, then go as a group of parents and say to the bully's
parents...."Darling Jane here has taken to terrorizing all of our
children." If those parents, popular or not can look into the eyes of 8
other families and see that everyone has had enough of this girl and her
venom, and they do nothing....then as I said it's time to start a new
group. However...if those other parents won't speak up...then they are also
weak and complicit. And they are willing to sacrifice their children to be
"popular" with the "popular" parents. And should you really be a party to a
group like that? I would think not.
If these are girls I recommend a book called "Queen Bees and Wannabes"
http://www.amazon.com/dp/0307454444/ref=sc_vs__Queen_2520bees Also "Odd Girl
Out"
http://www.amazon.com/Odd-Girl-Out-Culture-Aggression/dp/0156027348/ref=pd_bxgy_b_text_bAlso
"Queen Bee moms and Kingpin Dads"
http://www.amazon.com/Queen-Bee-Moms-Kingpin-Dads/dp/140008301X/ref=pd_sim_b_8And
finally "Mean Girls Grown Up"
http://www.amazon.com/Mean-Girls-Grown-Afraid---Bees/dp/0470168757/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1289223057&sr=1-1
Karen
From House, MD discussing parents of a child with Autism --
Dr Allison Cameron:Is it so wrong for them to want to have a normal child?
It's normal to want to be normal.
House: Spoken like a true circle queen. See, skinny socially privileged
white people get to draw this neat little circle, and everyone inside the
circle is normal, anyone outside the circle should be beaten, broken and
reset so they can be brought into the circle. Failing that, they should be
institutionalized or worse, pitied.
i , too, was confused by why this mother hasn’t reached out, with her child, and tried to problem solve with the other families, or at least attempted to gain more insight into what might be driving the situation.
that is why the only helpful thing I could imagine is to connect with the other parents (and/or teens, if the teens are older) and to help the excluded child advocate for themselves and find out the full picture.
lyla
From: Karen Swanay
Sent: Monday, November 08, 2010 5:31 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Help needed with unschooling community issue
I think it's important to say what sex your child is as well as that of the
bully. Relational aggression in females is quite common...less so in
males. And it's important because if it's RA (and these are girls) then
there are more kids involved in this than just one. A Queen Bee has to have
her support system to make RA work well. If that's the case, then there are
MANY other parents you could speak to. Those girls who are supporting the
Queen Bee are weak and complicit in the RA. As a parent, I'd want to know
if my daughter was so weak she would participate in this kind of
psychological/emotional abuse. (Because not only is it not nice to the
target girl, but that means my child will go along with anything and I would
want to know that.)
If these are boys, then it's traditionally called bullying but *usually*
it's much less severe because boys are usually more open about their
negative feelings, they might have a fight and then it's usually over. (As
a parent I'd still want to know if my kid was a party to this behavior too.)
I also think we toss the term "teen" around too freely. A 13 yr old is
technically a teen but is MILES away from a 17 yr old developmentally. How
old are these "teens"? Because if they are young teens, they really are
more like little kids than smaller sized adults. If they are older kids,
say 17 or so...then it's less about the parents and more about the kid.
And I'd feel like I wasn't being honest if I didn't put this in this post so
here goes. If your child has turned to self-injury and suicidal ideation
over being snubbed by one kid/multiple kids but your child is unschooled and
supported in all other areas of their life, then you need to get your kid to
counseling because your child has WAY more going on that just this one
situation. Sure, no one likes to be snubbed/bullied but since this isn't
school and your kid isn't exposed to this situation 8 hours a day 185 days a
year, it seems to me to be a VERY extreme reaction to an unpleasant
situation. I'M NOT SAYING YOUR KID HAS NO RIGHT TO BE UPSET!! I'm saying
that talking about killing yourself and cutting is way too severe a reaction
for the situation AS YOU DESCRIBE IT. (And if these are girls we are
talking about I'd be sure to look at your child for signs of an eating
disorder or BDD because this reaction is just too strong if your child is
mentally healthy and robust at all other times.)
LET ME REPEAT...that doesn't mean that your kid shouldn't be upset. That
doesn't mean that the kid that is doing this isn't a horrid human being.
That doesn't mean that if her (I'm assuming) parents know she's like this
and they haven't done anything about it that they aren't complicit and also
horrible people. (Yeah that statement will likely get me in trouble but I
think if as a parent you support RA/Bullying in your kid...you are a
horrible person.) BUT I am saying that if your child has been pushed out of
their primary social group but that group attendance was only say about 3%
of your child's total yearly socializing time then trying to kill herself
and cutting is a sign that there are other, perhaps much more severe
maladaptive behaviors in your child that you should be vigilant about
attending to.
Personally, I'd go straight to the parents of this precious darling and tell
them what's going on. And to support my child I'd show her that if there
are ugly people about...MOVE. Remove yourselves from the group. Gather all
the other kids this has happened to and start your own gatherings. BOOT the
bully from the group. If, as you say, there are a bunch of kids this has
happened to then there are a bunch of kids looking for their primary social
group back. Start it yourself. AND if there are a bunch of other kids this
has happened to, then go as a group of parents and say to the bully's
parents...."Darling Jane here has taken to terrorizing all of our
children." If those parents, popular or not can look into the eyes of 8
other families and see that everyone has had enough of this girl and her
venom, and they do nothing....then as I said it's time to start a new
group. However...if those other parents won't speak up...then they are also
weak and complicit. And they are willing to sacrifice their children to be
"popular" with the "popular" parents. And should you really be a party to a
group like that? I would think not.
If these are girls I recommend a book called "Queen Bees and Wannabes"
http://www.amazon.com/dp/0307454444/ref=sc_vs__Queen_2520bees Also "Odd Girl
Out"
http://www.amazon.com/Odd-Girl-Out-Culture-Aggression/dp/0156027348/ref=pd_bxgy_b_text_bAlso
"Queen Bee moms and Kingpin Dads"
http://www.amazon.com/Queen-Bee-Moms-Kingpin-Dads/dp/140008301X/ref=pd_sim_b_8And
finally "Mean Girls Grown Up"
http://www.amazon.com/Mean-Girls-Grown-Afraid---Bees/dp/0470168757/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1289223057&sr=1-1
Karen
From House, MD discussing parents of a child with Autism --
Dr Allison Cameron:Is it so wrong for them to want to have a normal child?
It's normal to want to be normal.
House: Spoken like a true circle queen. See, skinny socially privileged
white people get to draw this neat little circle, and everyone inside the
circle is normal, anyone outside the circle should be beaten, broken and
reset so they can be brought into the circle. Failing that, they should be
institutionalized or worse, pitied.
On Sun, Nov 7, 2010 at 4:03 PM, amy.maus <mailto:amy.maus%40yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
> I hope I'll be forgiven for posting this under an anonymous name. I have
> promised my child to preserve their privacy, but we'd also both like to get
> some input. We're having a serious problem with our unschooling community,
> and I don't know how to get advice except within that same community. I'm
> being vague on identifying details. So, here we are.
>
> My teenage child has been having serious issues with a long time "friend."
> This friend is a popular older teenager in the unschooling community, and is
> the child of popular and notable unschooling parents. "Friend" has decided
> that they don't like my child anymore, for reasons none of my family
> understands, and in addition to no longer including my child in gatherings
> of unschoolers, has encouraged other unschoolers to ostracize my child.
>
> This has led to great depression on the part of my child, including
> self-injury and feelings of being suicidal. With support this is getting
> better, and we have also discovered that there are lots of kids this has
> happened to with this individual. The parents seem to pay no attention to
> what their child does to other kids.
>
> So what do we do? Ours is such a small community, even nationally, and this
> family is much more known and central than ours. My child used to love
> gatherings and conferences, but no longer feels like they're welcome,
> because this other kid is at most of them. Should we just exclude ourselves
> for the rest of my child's youth, and lose all friends? We hear so much
> about bullying in schools. What do we do when unschoolers are the bullies?
>
> Any ideas? Thank you.
>
>
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Faith Void
I am not sure that 3% is an accurate assessment of someone else's social
life. In my prior experiences gatherings and conferences were my oldest dd's
primary social life. We lived in an area that was not conducive to IRL
friends. We went to as many conferences and gatherings as we could. We spent
all of our discretionary income on it. Even re-prioritizing our budget to
meet her social needs as much as possible during this time. She connects
with her unschooler friends online daily via myspace (way back when) and now
Facebook and other sites. We now have a wonderful IRL community but there
was a time when that was ALL she had outside of her family.
My dd was depressed and though not suicidal. However nothing traumatizing
happened to her at a gathering or conference. I believe that if she had been
ostracized that may have devastated her even though we our wonderful
support, partnering and loving parents.I don't know this particular
situation but I certainly wouldn't dismiss this as an over-reaction.
Faith
life. In my prior experiences gatherings and conferences were my oldest dd's
primary social life. We lived in an area that was not conducive to IRL
friends. We went to as many conferences and gatherings as we could. We spent
all of our discretionary income on it. Even re-prioritizing our budget to
meet her social needs as much as possible during this time. She connects
with her unschooler friends online daily via myspace (way back when) and now
Facebook and other sites. We now have a wonderful IRL community but there
was a time when that was ALL she had outside of her family.
My dd was depressed and though not suicidal. However nothing traumatizing
happened to her at a gathering or conference. I believe that if she had been
ostracized that may have devastated her even though we our wonderful
support, partnering and loving parents.I don't know this particular
situation but I certainly wouldn't dismiss this as an over-reaction.
Faith
On Mon, Nov 8, 2010 at 5:31 AM, Karen Swanay <luvbullbreeds@...>wrote:
>
>
> I am saying that if your child has been pushed out of
> their primary social group but that group attendance was only say about 3%
> of your child's total yearly socializing time then trying to kill herself
> and cutting is a sign that there are other, perhaps much more severe
> maladaptive behaviors in your child that you should be vigilant about
> attending to.
> On Sun, Nov 7, 2010 at 4:03 PM, amy.maus <amy.maus@...<amy.maus%40yahoo.com>>
> wrote:
>
> "Friend" has decided
> > that they don't like my child anymore, for reasons none of my family
> > understands, and in addition to no longer including my child in
> gatherings
> > of unschoolers, has encouraged other unschoolers to ostracize my child.
> >
> > T
> > So what do we do? Ours is such a small community, even nationally, and
> this
> > family is much more known and central than ours. My child used to love
> > gatherings and conferences, but no longer feels like they're welcome,
> > because this other kid is at most of them.
>
--
www.bearthmama.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
lylaw
I completely agree with that – if my daughter was feeling ostracized from the unschooling community, she would be devastated and depressed as well.
lyla
From: Faith Void
Sent: Monday, November 08, 2010 9:40 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Help needed with unschooling community issue
I am not sure that 3% is an accurate assessment of someone else's social
life. In my prior experiences gatherings and conferences were my oldest dd's
primary social life. We lived in an area that was not conducive to IRL
friends. We went to as many conferences and gatherings as we could. We spent
all of our discretionary income on it. Even re-prioritizing our budget to
meet her social needs as much as possible during this time. She connects
with her unschooler friends online daily via myspace (way back when) and now
Facebook and other sites. We now have a wonderful IRL community but there
was a time when that was ALL she had outside of her family.
My dd was depressed and though not suicidal. However nothing traumatizing
happened to her at a gathering or conference. I believe that if she had been
ostracized that may have devastated her even though we our wonderful
support, partnering and loving parents.I don't know this particular
situation but I certainly wouldn't dismiss this as an over-reaction.
Faith
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
lyla
From: Faith Void
Sent: Monday, November 08, 2010 9:40 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Help needed with unschooling community issue
I am not sure that 3% is an accurate assessment of someone else's social
life. In my prior experiences gatherings and conferences were my oldest dd's
primary social life. We lived in an area that was not conducive to IRL
friends. We went to as many conferences and gatherings as we could. We spent
all of our discretionary income on it. Even re-prioritizing our budget to
meet her social needs as much as possible during this time. She connects
with her unschooler friends online daily via myspace (way back when) and now
Facebook and other sites. We now have a wonderful IRL community but there
was a time when that was ALL she had outside of her family.
My dd was depressed and though not suicidal. However nothing traumatizing
happened to her at a gathering or conference. I believe that if she had been
ostracized that may have devastated her even though we our wonderful
support, partnering and loving parents.I don't know this particular
situation but I certainly wouldn't dismiss this as an over-reaction.
Faith
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Karen Swanay
It is a LONG way from devastated and depressed to self-injurious and
suicidal ideology even with the lack of details. If a child thinks that
death by suicide is the only option open to them at any point, there has to
be much more wrong than just one or a handful of mean kids. (Or however you
want to frame the nature/actions of the other kids.) It's one thing when
someone is in school with said kids all day M-F with no break...but I don't
see how this is possible with an unschooling lifestyle. Even considering a
conference every 2 weeks all over North America (which I think we all know
doesn't happen) and then the "local" group meeting 3 times a week (and that
would be a high tempo of meetings) it doesn't add up to the amount of time
that schooled kids spend with other schooled kids.
As I was VERY careful to point out...I am not saying the child in question
shouldn't be upset. I said that if suicide or self-injurious behavior were
the "go to" behaviors to deal with being snubbed and/or bullied that there
may be other things to look at in the child's life. I'm not wrong. You may
not think I'm right but I've studied psychology way too long (and lived my
growing years as the target of bullying) to be able to say "Yeah I can see
where suicide is the best option because Jane and Company won't talk to Mary
and won't include her when we all get together X times a year for a total of
Y hours." AND it begs the question as was asked by others...EVEN IF this is
the primary social group IRL if those participating are that cold and
exclusionary (since I've been called out for being against bullying) why go
and why subject said child to being excluded over and over thereby
reinforcing the negative message and the maladaptive self talk?
I will give you that it's very limited information and there is likely
another side to the story which we didn't get but I took OP at her word that
this is what was going on and I responded to that. We don't have to agree.
That's OK. But I still think self-injury and suicidal ideation have deeper
roots than just this incident and EVEN IF they do not...then the child in
question shouldn't be exposed to this in an on-going way because it's
obviously dangerous to her/his mental health. It's the equivalent of the
"Well what if he wants to run in the street? Should I just let him get hit
by a car?!" No. You find ways for him to explore what's so fascinating
about the street where he won't get hit by a car. Isn't that what the list
is always telling newbies? Look for other ways to meet the needs of your
kids so they can experience life without being put in mortal danger. I call
killing yourself (and likely cutting but could be burning or bulemia) unsafe
ways of living life.
Karen
From House, MD discussing parents of a child with Autism --
Dr Allison Cameron:Is it so wrong for them to want to have a normal child?
It's normal to want to be normal.
House: Spoken like a true circle queen. See, skinny socially privileged
white people get to draw this neat little circle, and everyone inside the
circle is normal, anyone outside the circle should be beaten, broken and
reset so they can be brought into the circle. Failing that, they should be
institutionalized or worse, pitied.
suicidal ideology even with the lack of details. If a child thinks that
death by suicide is the only option open to them at any point, there has to
be much more wrong than just one or a handful of mean kids. (Or however you
want to frame the nature/actions of the other kids.) It's one thing when
someone is in school with said kids all day M-F with no break...but I don't
see how this is possible with an unschooling lifestyle. Even considering a
conference every 2 weeks all over North America (which I think we all know
doesn't happen) and then the "local" group meeting 3 times a week (and that
would be a high tempo of meetings) it doesn't add up to the amount of time
that schooled kids spend with other schooled kids.
As I was VERY careful to point out...I am not saying the child in question
shouldn't be upset. I said that if suicide or self-injurious behavior were
the "go to" behaviors to deal with being snubbed and/or bullied that there
may be other things to look at in the child's life. I'm not wrong. You may
not think I'm right but I've studied psychology way too long (and lived my
growing years as the target of bullying) to be able to say "Yeah I can see
where suicide is the best option because Jane and Company won't talk to Mary
and won't include her when we all get together X times a year for a total of
Y hours." AND it begs the question as was asked by others...EVEN IF this is
the primary social group IRL if those participating are that cold and
exclusionary (since I've been called out for being against bullying) why go
and why subject said child to being excluded over and over thereby
reinforcing the negative message and the maladaptive self talk?
I will give you that it's very limited information and there is likely
another side to the story which we didn't get but I took OP at her word that
this is what was going on and I responded to that. We don't have to agree.
That's OK. But I still think self-injury and suicidal ideation have deeper
roots than just this incident and EVEN IF they do not...then the child in
question shouldn't be exposed to this in an on-going way because it's
obviously dangerous to her/his mental health. It's the equivalent of the
"Well what if he wants to run in the street? Should I just let him get hit
by a car?!" No. You find ways for him to explore what's so fascinating
about the street where he won't get hit by a car. Isn't that what the list
is always telling newbies? Look for other ways to meet the needs of your
kids so they can experience life without being put in mortal danger. I call
killing yourself (and likely cutting but could be burning or bulemia) unsafe
ways of living life.
Karen
From House, MD discussing parents of a child with Autism --
Dr Allison Cameron:Is it so wrong for them to want to have a normal child?
It's normal to want to be normal.
House: Spoken like a true circle queen. See, skinny socially privileged
white people get to draw this neat little circle, and everyone inside the
circle is normal, anyone outside the circle should be beaten, broken and
reset so they can be brought into the circle. Failing that, they should be
institutionalized or worse, pitied.
On Mon, Nov 8, 2010 at 11:50 AM, lylaw <lylaw@...> wrote:
>
>
> I completely agree with that � if my daughter was feeling ostracized from
> the unschooling community, she would be devastated and depressed as well.
>
> lyla
> From: Faith Void
> Sent: Monday, November 08, 2010 9:40 AM
>
> To: [email protected]<unschoolingbasics%40yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Help needed with unschooling community
> issue
>
> I am not sure that 3% is an accurate assessment of someone else's social
> life. In my prior experiences gatherings and conferences were my oldest
> dd's
> primary social life. We lived in an area that was not conducive to IRL
> friends. We went to as many conferences and gatherings as we could. We
> spent
> all of our discretionary income on it. Even re-prioritizing our budget to
> meet her social needs as much as possible during this time. She connects
> with her unschooler friends online daily via myspace (way back when) and
> now
> Facebook and other sites. We now have a wonderful IRL community but there
> was a time when that was ALL she had outside of her family.
>
> My dd was depressed and though not suicidal. However nothing traumatizing
> happened to her at a gathering or conference. I believe that if she had
> been
> ostracized that may have devastated her even though we our wonderful
> support, partnering and loving parents.I don't know this particular
> situation but I certainly wouldn't dismiss this as an over-reaction.
>
> Faith
>
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Faith Void
This was studying done in relationship to unschoolers? And that a child that
was bullied for less than the proscribed amount of time should not have
certain outcomes because they didn't meet a time criteria?
You are correct I don't agree that we can quantify this timewise. I don't
believe that a child can see that far out of their own misery sometimes. If
X is all they know then they might be equally devastated to someone who was
bullied in school. It doesn't seem unfathomable to me.
I am not saying that "Amy" shouldn't look into other underlying reasons that
her child might feel this wound so deeply. I would definitely explore things
further and deeper with my child. I just don't agree that we should blow off
a child feeling this way because they dont' spend enough time with the
bullies.
Faith
was bullied for less than the proscribed amount of time should not have
certain outcomes because they didn't meet a time criteria?
You are correct I don't agree that we can quantify this timewise. I don't
believe that a child can see that far out of their own misery sometimes. If
X is all they know then they might be equally devastated to someone who was
bullied in school. It doesn't seem unfathomable to me.
I am not saying that "Amy" shouldn't look into other underlying reasons that
her child might feel this wound so deeply. I would definitely explore things
further and deeper with my child. I just don't agree that we should blow off
a child feeling this way because they dont' spend enough time with the
bullies.
Faith
On Mon, Nov 8, 2010 at 10:50 AM, Karen Swanay <luvbullbreeds@...>wrote:
> I'm not wrong. You may
> not think I'm right but I've studied psychology way too long (and lived my
> growing years as the target of bullying) to be able to say "Yeah I can see
> where suicide is the best option because Jane and Company won't talk to
> Mary
> and won't include her when we all get together X times a year for a total
> of
> Y hours."
--
www.bearthmama.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Karen
If I gave the impression that it should be blown off that was not my intent. I was just suggesting this might be a big red flag pointing to deeper issues. Far from blowing it off I am advocating more vigilance. I'm sorry if my posts were not clearly explaining my sense of alarm. My apologies for the confusion.
Karen
Sent from my iPhone
Karen
Sent from my iPhone
On Nov 8, 2010, at 1:15 PM, Faith Void <littlemsvoid@...> wrote:
> This was studying done in relationship to unschoolers? And that a child that
> was bullied for less than the proscribed amount of time should not have
> certain outcomes because they didn't meet a time criteria?
>
> You are correct I don't agree that we can quantify this timewise. I don't
> believe that a child can see that far out of their own misery sometimes. If
> X is all they know then they might be equally devastated to someone who was
> bullied in school. It doesn't seem unfathomable to me.
>
> I am not saying that "Amy" shouldn't look into other underlying reasons that
> her child might feel this wound so deeply. I would definitely explore things
> further and deeper with my child. I just don't agree that we should blow off
> a child feeling this way because they dont' spend enough time with the
> bullies.
>
> Faith
>
> On Mon, Nov 8, 2010 at 10:50 AM, Karen Swanay <luvbullbreeds@...>wrote:
>
> > I'm not wrong. You may
> > not think I'm right but I've studied psychology way too long (and lived my
> > growing years as the target of bullying) to be able to say "Yeah I can see
> > where suicide is the best option because Jane and Company won't talk to
> > Mary
> > and won't include her when we all get together X times a year for a total
> > of
> > Y hours."
>
> --
> www.bearthmama.com
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Schuyler
You could explore other groups where your child may have a common interest.
Unschoolers don't have to be the only friend pool you draw from (tho I have one
child who simply won't even try other sources, so I know that can be a
challenge).
________________________________
I don't live where there are unschoolers. Simon and Linnaea only really get to
play with other unschooled children when we go to the U.S. or when the U.S.
comes to us, or on-line. There are a few exceptions to that, but largely that's
accurate. Finding folks outside of the unschooling world would seem to be a
reasonable option. If the unschooling world isn't satisfying your child's needs
I would find other means to that end. Quit banging your head against the
unschooling wall, if there isn't a door, don't demand one be made for you.
I'm sorry that there isn't a way in. I'm sorry that your child is being kept
out, not being allowed to play. I'm sorry that you are seeing someone else as
keeping your child from getting what he/she needs. I would look for more than
one route to getting her access to his/her friends and the community that he/she
wants. And look for ways that she/he can join in on the things that she/he feels
excluded from. Presumably there is only one gathering that this family is
responsible for, that leaves y'all quite a few others to go to. Presumably there
is only one Not Back to School Camp that the other child attends, if that's part
of the access being disputed, that leaves another one open, with the excitement
of travel and connecting with a whole other world of community to access. Or
maybe, just figuring out how to attend something when someone you don't get on
with is also in attendance wouldn't be a bad thing to explore.
Look outside unschooling. Find other things to do, other people to do things
with. Don't necessarily look to children of the same age, find other folks. Have
dinner parties with people you all enjoy. Find things to do together, cool and
connected things. Things that are all about joy and laughter. If you can afford
it, go somewhere else for a few days. If you can't, figure out how to go
somewhere fun and different and away from all the thoughts of connection that he
or she feels is missing from his or her life. Fill up his/her life with things
that he's/she's wanted to do but you've not managed to make the time for or the
funds available for or the attention for. Get a book that you two can read
together. Go to some nearby town or city for the release of Harry Potter and
dress up as someone from the movie. Big it up! Whatever it is that makes your
child smile do more of. Do all that you can not to dwell on what isn't and look
to what is!
Schuyler
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Unschoolers don't have to be the only friend pool you draw from (tho I have one
child who simply won't even try other sources, so I know that can be a
challenge).
________________________________
I don't live where there are unschoolers. Simon and Linnaea only really get to
play with other unschooled children when we go to the U.S. or when the U.S.
comes to us, or on-line. There are a few exceptions to that, but largely that's
accurate. Finding folks outside of the unschooling world would seem to be a
reasonable option. If the unschooling world isn't satisfying your child's needs
I would find other means to that end. Quit banging your head against the
unschooling wall, if there isn't a door, don't demand one be made for you.
I'm sorry that there isn't a way in. I'm sorry that your child is being kept
out, not being allowed to play. I'm sorry that you are seeing someone else as
keeping your child from getting what he/she needs. I would look for more than
one route to getting her access to his/her friends and the community that he/she
wants. And look for ways that she/he can join in on the things that she/he feels
excluded from. Presumably there is only one gathering that this family is
responsible for, that leaves y'all quite a few others to go to. Presumably there
is only one Not Back to School Camp that the other child attends, if that's part
of the access being disputed, that leaves another one open, with the excitement
of travel and connecting with a whole other world of community to access. Or
maybe, just figuring out how to attend something when someone you don't get on
with is also in attendance wouldn't be a bad thing to explore.
Look outside unschooling. Find other things to do, other people to do things
with. Don't necessarily look to children of the same age, find other folks. Have
dinner parties with people you all enjoy. Find things to do together, cool and
connected things. Things that are all about joy and laughter. If you can afford
it, go somewhere else for a few days. If you can't, figure out how to go
somewhere fun and different and away from all the thoughts of connection that he
or she feels is missing from his or her life. Fill up his/her life with things
that he's/she's wanted to do but you've not managed to make the time for or the
funds available for or the attention for. Get a book that you two can read
together. Go to some nearby town or city for the release of Harry Potter and
dress up as someone from the movie. Big it up! Whatever it is that makes your
child smile do more of. Do all that you can not to dwell on what isn't and look
to what is!
Schuyler
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
sharon
I have many thoughts about this, but I only have time for a quick response right now. I would suggest arranging one on one get togethers with friends. That usually helps to eliminate the group dynamics that you mentioned. Groups can sometimes be overwhelming for some people-children, teens, and adults. If your son/dtr is only with other teens in group settings, there is no opportunity to build intimacy and friendship.
If I have time, I may respond with more later.
Best,
Sharon
If I have time, I may respond with more later.
Best,
Sharon
--- In [email protected], "amy.maus" <amy.maus@...> wrote:
>
> I hope I'll be forgiven for posting this under an anonymous name. I have promised my child to preserve their privacy, but we'd also both like to get some input. We're having a serious problem with our unschooling community, and I don't know how to get advice except within that same community. I'm being vague on identifying details. So, here we are.
>
> My teenage child has been having serious issues with a long time "friend." This friend is a popular older teenager in the unschooling community, and is the child of popular and notable unschooling parents. "Friend" has decided that they don't like my child anymore, for reasons none of my family understands, and in addition to no longer including my child in gatherings of unschoolers, has encouraged other unschoolers to ostracize my child.
>
> This has led to great depression on the part of my child, including self-injury and feelings of being suicidal. With support this is getting better, and we have also discovered that there are lots of kids this has happened to with this individual. The parents seem to pay no attention to what their child does to other kids.
>
> So what do we do? Ours is such a small community, even nationally, and this family is much more known and central than ours. My child used to love gatherings and conferences, but no longer feels like they're welcome, because this other kid is at most of them. Should we just exclude ourselves for the rest of my child's youth, and lose all friends? We hear so much about bullying in schools. What do we do when unschoolers are the bullies?
>
> Any ideas? Thank you.
>
Kelly Lovejoy
Contact me offlist. I'll see what I can do.
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
"There is no single effort more radical in its potential for saving the world than a transformation of the way we raise our children." Marianne Williamson
-----Original Message-----
From: amy.maus <amy.maus@...>
I hope I'll be forgiven for posting this under an anonymous name. I have
promised my child to preserve their privacy, but we'd also both like to get some
input. We're having a serious problem with our unschooling community, and I
don't know how to get advice except within that same community. I'm being vague
on identifying details. So, here we are.
My teenage child has been having serious issues with a long time "friend." This
friend is a popular older teenager in the unschooling community, and is the
child of popular and notable unschooling parents. "Friend" has decided that they
don't like my child anymore, for reasons none of my family understands, and in
addition to no longer including my child in gatherings of unschoolers, has
encouraged other unschoolers to ostracize my child.
This has led to great depression on the part of my child, including self-injury
and feelings of being suicidal. With support this is getting better, and we have
also discovered that there are lots of kids this has happened to with this
individual. The parents seem to pay no attention to what their child does to
other kids.
So what do we do? Ours is such a small community, even nationally, and this
family is much more known and central than ours. My child used to love
gatherings and conferences, but no longer feels like they're welcome, because
this other kid is at most of them. Should we just exclude ourselves for the rest
of my child's youth, and lose all friends? We hear so much about bullying in
schools. What do we do when unschoolers are the bullies?
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
"There is no single effort more radical in its potential for saving the world than a transformation of the way we raise our children." Marianne Williamson
-----Original Message-----
From: amy.maus <amy.maus@...>
I hope I'll be forgiven for posting this under an anonymous name. I have
promised my child to preserve their privacy, but we'd also both like to get some
input. We're having a serious problem with our unschooling community, and I
don't know how to get advice except within that same community. I'm being vague
on identifying details. So, here we are.
My teenage child has been having serious issues with a long time "friend." This
friend is a popular older teenager in the unschooling community, and is the
child of popular and notable unschooling parents. "Friend" has decided that they
don't like my child anymore, for reasons none of my family understands, and in
addition to no longer including my child in gatherings of unschoolers, has
encouraged other unschoolers to ostracize my child.
This has led to great depression on the part of my child, including self-injury
and feelings of being suicidal. With support this is getting better, and we have
also discovered that there are lots of kids this has happened to with this
individual. The parents seem to pay no attention to what their child does to
other kids.
So what do we do? Ours is such a small community, even nationally, and this
family is much more known and central than ours. My child used to love
gatherings and conferences, but no longer feels like they're welcome, because
this other kid is at most of them. Should we just exclude ourselves for the rest
of my child's youth, and lose all friends? We hear so much about bullying in
schools. What do we do when unschoolers are the bullies?
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]