t_guyonvarch

I would like to ask for advice from you all about my son. He has recently found new passion with tanks, from games, toys, tv programs etc. I have no problem with that so just give him as much time as he wants, and anything that I could think of to support this new passion. However today is the 6th day he doesn't want to go out of the house. He wants to stay home and play this all the time. This in itself is no problem for me, but it has infringed on other things, like not letting me or his dad do any thing else other than playing with him, even sometimes to the point of not letting us go to fetch some food, drink or go to the toilet without him screaming. Even we have told him that we need to do all these things and come back as soon possible, he still screams (and we do come back as we promised). We know that he has problem with transition so we always try to give him several "warning" that we're going to do this or that. Sometimes it works sometimes still screaming (and he's a very intense person). I have learnt to accept this and just go with the flow, however, his dad is not so happy with this (he hasn't 100 percent bought into unschooling yet).

There's also another problem that may or may not relate to this. He's been holding it to go to open his bowel or to urinate. It's the 3rd day today. Since the last two weeks or so he's doing it so often (we had to change his pants 4 or 5 times a day. Sometimes when we catch him doing it (see the change on his face or body movement) we ask him to go to toilet. SOmetimes he's willing to go but most often he doesn't want to. Yesterday I saw him about to go, but when I offered him to go he said no, I stopped it. This morning was the same. It's the third day and I'm worried that it will be so painful when he has to do it. Also because his tummy is so full, he's not eating as well, and I feel he's becoming a bit more "touchy". I've been trying to give him fruit and veg to make it easier for him to go to toilet, but he doesn't always want it, though still has some.

I would like some advice on what I can do to make his dad happier with his son (so will be more willing to do more things unschooling way), also what I can do (or not do) so my son would be more willing to go to toilet. I did read the thread about potty. My son has been ok with toileting until the last few weeks (he was late in pottying). I have now also offer him back his potty, a bottle for pee, etc but it seems not really working. He doesn't want his potty , he wants to use the toilet (I asked this morning why he doesn't want to use the potty to poo he said because he want to use the toilet upstairs), but when I ask him let go upstairs then, he said no. Seems like when I ask him something, he will always say no for an answer (by default it seems, but this has started for the last few months). I guess the reason is he's asserting his independence, but still, what can I do to help him?

Many thanks
Titis

[email protected]

Stop asking DS if he wants to go to the bathroom and hug DH. It does seem harder for some Dads to just go with the flow and not get all tense when a less-than-perfect situation is unfolding and try to fix everything. Sometimes things are just not perfect and then they smooth out.

Nance


--- In [email protected], "t_guyonvarch" <titiskarweni@...> wrote:
>
> I would like to ask for advice from you all about my son. He has recently found new passion with tanks, from games, toys, tv programs etc. I have no problem with that so just give him as much time as he wants, and anything that I could think of to support this new passion. However today is the 6th day he doesn't want to go out of the house. He wants to stay home and play this all the time. This in itself is no problem for me, but it has infringed on other things, like not letting me or his dad do any thing else other than playing with him, even sometimes to the point of not letting us go to fetch some food, drink or go to the toilet without him screaming. Even we have told him that we need to do all these things and come back as soon possible, he still screams (and we do come back as we promised). We know that he has problem with transition so we always try to give him several "warning" that we're going to do this or that. Sometimes it works sometimes still screaming (and he's a very intense person). I have learnt to accept this and just go with the flow, however, his dad is not so happy with this (he hasn't 100 percent bought into unschooling yet).
>
> There's also another problem that may or may not relate to this. He's been holding it to go to open his bowel or to urinate. It's the 3rd day today. Since the last two weeks or so he's doing it so often (we had to change his pants 4 or 5 times a day. Sometimes when we catch him doing it (see the change on his face or body movement) we ask him to go to toilet. SOmetimes he's willing to go but most often he doesn't want to. Yesterday I saw him about to go, but when I offered him to go he said no, I stopped it. This morning was the same. It's the third day and I'm worried that it will be so painful when he has to do it. Also because his tummy is so full, he's not eating as well, and I feel he's becoming a bit more "touchy". I've been trying to give him fruit and veg to make it easier for him to go to toilet, but he doesn't always want it, though still has some.
>
> I would like some advice on what I can do to make his dad happier with his son (so will be more willing to do more things unschooling way), also what I can do (or not do) so my son would be more willing to go to toilet. I did read the thread about potty. My son has been ok with toileting until the last few weeks (he was late in pottying). I have now also offer him back his potty, a bottle for pee, etc but it seems not really working. He doesn't want his potty , he wants to use the toilet (I asked this morning why he doesn't want to use the potty to poo he said because he want to use the toilet upstairs), but when I ask him let go upstairs then, he said no. Seems like when I ask him something, he will always say no for an answer (by default it seems, but this has started for the last few months). I guess the reason is he's asserting his independence, but still, what can I do to help him?
>
> Many thanks
> Titis
>

plaidpanties666

Sorry to take so long getting back to this... I have questions more than answers, I'm afraid. It seems like this is all happening recently, from you description, so I'm wondering what Else happened recently? Did you just start deschooling? New food? New environment?

A lot of what you describe sounds like a child who is feeling "out of control" and so is trying to exert a lot of control over everything he can think of. Adults do that too. What you can do to support him is to set him up to feel powerful - and that may mean Not asking him "do you want to...?" That sounds backwards, but some kids get really stressed out by the question, they'll see it as an attempt to control them, or just be flummoxed by the question itself. This is more a personality thing, it won't apply to everyone! But if you've been asking and getting a lot of "No" then its a good idea to back off on the question.

At the same time, do what you can to make things easier Without asking. Experiment with this. Basically, switch from trying to communicate verbally to communicating more with actions and seeing his actions as communication, too - does that make sense?

The bowel thing is certainly adding stress to your son's life and is something to look into from a dietary standpoint - adding things to help things flow more smoothly, as it were. I'm hoping people will chime in with specifics on that, but there's also this group
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/UnschoolingNutrition/

which is very definitely a *radical* unschooling group if anyone wants to check it out.

> I would like some advice on what I can do to make his dad happier with his son

Is dad theoretically interested in unschooling? That's something that can make a difference. If he's not sure about this crazy unschooling thing, it can be most helpful to do what you can to extend some of the same "benefits" of unschooling to your husband - love him up, show interest in his thoughts and feelings, listen to what he has to say, find more ways to say Yes to him. Understanding unschooling on that kind of gut level can help get dads "on board" but more than that, when someone's needs are getting met its easier to be kind and thoughtful.

If he is interested in unschooling, look for ways to share what's working without "correcting" dad. That doesn't work with adults any better than with kids :P As much as you can, set the two of them up for better situations, but don't get in the way and "fix" things unless you and your husband have discussed that and he's said he wants you to "come to his rescue". Coming to the rescue feels good. Jumping in and taking over because he's messed up doesn't feel so good.

---Meredith

t_guyonvarch

Thank you Meredith and Nance for getting back to me. I was already started thinking that there's nothing I can do as nobody has anything to tell me. So thank you.

I have now stopped my self - when I remember - from saying anything about his toileting. However, I find it hard to not say anything when he has poo in his pants but doesn't want me to clean him. Sometimes he also doesn't realise that he put his hand there (because he's playing so his mind is only in his game) and then the poo goes everywhere (keyboard, mouse, table etc). Also because I don't always know where he's put his hands on so I can't clean it up directly. So revolting when I find it later on. I find it really hard to not say anything in those moments.

We suspect he's got Asperger, though diagnosis is not confirmed (but recently I think it doesn't matter whether he's got ASperger or not, what matters is how we can meet his needs). Communication has always been a problem. It's a one way street, we can only reach him if we are inside his world. Often when we speak to him, looks like he's listening to us, but from his answer, it's obvious that he was listening to his own brain. So, yes, I've learnt to communicate with him through actions rather than word. Sometimes I feel like I have no conversation with anybody unless I go out to meet someone, or someone comes over or when he's already sleeping (which is now very rarely before us). But getting someone over is not easy either as the house is often such a hazard for other kids.

I first heard about unschooling last year, have been slowly implementing it, although radically only recently as I've just found out about this wholelife unschooling recently, as you've guessed Meredith. But him saying No all the time has started even long before that. He's a very "stubborn" (my husband's word) person so doesn't want to be told what to do. This is already since he was very little, only since the last year or so becoming even more forceful.

When I first learnt about radical unschooling I was very interested to apply it but knowing my husband, he would resist the idea. But then I'm thinking radical unschooling is probably the only way we can live in peace knowing that my son always says no and never want to do what we ask him. As I gain more understanding about how you guys look at things, shifting perspectives, and give all control back to the child, I understand that that is what my son has always been trying to tell us. So I slowly introduce the concept to my husband so he can understand why son is doing what he's doing. We first went with the food, it now works better. Then bed time, a nightmare at first but then things settle down, so hubby is accepting more. We are still working on how to handle his meltdowns more peacefully, which was really hard at the beginning, but it's getting much better now. He's a tape recorder (echolalia), often repeats back word for word what we say to him, often in the wrong context. This shows us that he finds it really hard to understand the world. There's nearly no discussion whatsoever with him, nearly impossible to initiate any conversation, it's only when he starts it then we answer him. Even our answers sometimes look as if it was not heard, or not important to him. So talking about what happened after his meltdown has calmed down doesn't always work and hubby is afraid that son would never learn that things are not always possible to happen as he wants it. But I think son still learns this, probably just more slowly than if we were able to discuss it.


> ...it can be most helpful to do what you can to extend some of the same "benefits" of unschooling to your husband - love him up, show interest in his thoughts and feelings, listen to what he has to say, find more ways to say Yes to him.

I realise this is important (from the last few threads I've been reading up from several lists) so have been trying to do it too. But I think I don't do it enough as I'm most of the time already exhousted (more mentally than physically) by the time hubby comes home so I just want him to take over from me and just get away from it all. Adding to that is the lack of time we have for us to be just for us. We have no relatives around as we are both foreigners, and haven't met anyone that we feel able to understand our son enough to be able to handle his meltdowns without resorting to conventional ways. This is mainly, I think, because, as you all have said, better handled by tuning in to his needs to prevent it, which means the person (e.g. if we want a baby sitter etc) will need to make connection with him so able to receive the cues before meltdown.


I just read your reply again, and now I'm thinking my son says No all the time since he was very little because as you said because he's feeling out of control, because he doesn't understand this world, not because he's stubborn. He's also very sensitive and spirited person (been reading Daniele's website too). It all makes sense to me, but still find it soooo hard...

Will look into that nutrition group now. Thanks.

>....and that may mean Not asking him "do you want to...?"

I can see what you're saying, I'm just now thinking, what else can I say to him as there's nothing left to say for any sort of conversation. Like this whole week we're at home all the time because he doesn't want to go out. Sometimes I ask him: do you want to go to playground? Or do you want to go to softplay? Or do you want to meet this boy (who he likes going to usually)? Should I stop these questions too?

I honestly have no problem of us staying at home (I'm introvert so doesn't need much of others company, only occasionally). But I see son has this vestibular needs to meet. I've tried to meet that. We've a small indoor trampoline which he uses a lot. We also let him jump and climb on whatever he wants (even when it's sometimes considered by other people as a bit dangerous, I just have to be there to catch him or warn him) but this he's done since the day he was able to. We do play catch and run around the house etc. But his fav game is playing very high energy game with hubby but hubby is tired, though he still does it as he now understands his son's need. I find that if we're out during the day, son can do all this outside then in the evening he needs less of this so wont be too exhausting for hubby.

What I'm doing now at the same time as writing this is replying his excitment with (hopefully) the same enthusiasm as his while he's playing his tank battle. Other than this, what else can I say? If he ask me to play the war with his tanks, I do that too, but I'm so not good at this so find it really hard to think of what to say or do in the battle game. And I think he knows that too and often stop playing after a short while (and I then feel bad about it).

Suggestions in this issue also appreciated. Fyi, he's not into books very much, more visual and hands-on learner. We've got him many tank toys(though in my opinion can always do with more but hubby doesn't always think so). We've taken him to military and aviation museums, find things on youtube, programs on tv. Anything else you can think of?

> .... What you can do to support him is to set him up to feel powerful -

Could you suggest me example of this please?

Thank you again, much appreciated.
Titis

otherstar

From: t_guyonvarch
Sent: Friday, October 29, 2010 6:31 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: help with my 4.5yr


>>>>I have now stopped my self - when I remember - from saying anything about his toileting. However, I find it hard to not say anything when he has poo in his pants but doesn't want me to clean him. Sometimes he also doesn't realise that he put his hand there (because he's playing so his mind is only in his game) and then the poo goes everywhere (keyboard, mouse, table etc). Also because I don't always know where he's put his hands on so I can't clean it up directly. So revolting when I find it later on. I find it really hard to not say anything in those moments.<<<

I didn't see your original thread or those replies so I hope I am not repeating anything that they said. My 6 year old didn't go to the potty by herself until she was almost 5. Until then, we got her pull ups. We got her ones with cool characters that she liked. She hated to be changed for any reason. There were days where her pull up would be so saggy that it was almost falling off. Instead of saying anything about the potty, maybe you could simply talk to him about keeping his hands clean. Put packages of wet wipes around the house where it is easy for him to get them himself. If he plays at the computer, keep a pack of wet wipes there so that one of you can clean up without making any kind of a fuss about it. If you see his hands dirty, simply say, "Hey, I see your hands are dirty, here is a wet wipe." Do it very matter of factly without saying anything about the poop. Treat the poop as you would any other kind of dirt without drawing any attention to it.

>>>I can see what you're saying, I'm just now thinking, what else can I say to him as there's nothing left to say for any sort of conversation. Like this whole week we're at home all the time because he doesn't want to go out. Sometimes I ask him: do you want to go to playground? Or do you want to go to softplay? Or do you want to meet this boy (who he likes going to usually)? Should I stop these questions too?<<<

For now, I would stop asking. If there is a cool activity that you think he will like, plan to do it and tell him that you have made the plans. I have found that my girls will respond better when I make the plans and tell them about it and then help them get ready. Sometimes, we cancel our plans because one or more of my girls don't want to go when it comes right down to it. That is usually a decision made at the last minute though. One of my daughters gets really overwhelmed when I ask too many questions so I just have to try to do things without actually asking about it. If I ask my 3.5 year old what she wants to eat, she is unable to make a decision and gets really frustrated with me. Instead of asking her, I will get a plate of food for me that has food on it that she likes. When I sit down to eat "my" food, she will come join me. Likewise, when going places, she gets overwhelmed when I give her choices or ask her where she wants to go. Choice is great unless that choice is overwhelming. Sometimes my kids will tell me no because they are overwhelmed by all the choices that I give them. That is when I have to back off. The hard part is that sometimes they want the choice and sometimes they want me to make the choice for them. It can be tough to figure out when to give them choice and when not to.

>>>I honestly have no problem of us staying at home (I'm introvert so doesn't need much of others company, only occasionally). But I see son has this vestibular needs to meet. I've tried to meet that. We've a small indoor trampoline which he uses a lot. We also let him jump and climb on whatever he wants (even when it's sometimes considered by other people as a bit dangerous, I just have to be there to catch him or warn him) but this he's done since the day he was able to. We do play catch and run around the house etc. But his fav game is playing very high energy game with hubby but hubby is tired, though he still does it as he now understands his son's need. I find that if we're out during the day, son can do all this outside then in the evening he needs less of this so wont be too exhausting for hubby.<<<

Have you thought about getting a swing? There are some really cool hammock swings that kind of sandwich you. My 6 year old loves our hammock swing because it holds her tight and lets her get swung really high. She can also sit in it and spin around and around and around. Pushing a swing is pretty easy to do when you are tired.

>>>Suggestions in this issue also appreciated. Fyi, he's not into books very much, more visual and hands-on learner. We've got him many tank toys(though in my opinion can always do with more but hubby doesn't always think so). We've taken him to military and aviation museums, find things on youtube, programs on tv. Anything else you can think of?<<<

What about a gaming system? My very active 6 year old loves her Nintendo DS. You can also check out military games on the computer. There are lots of them out there.

>>>> .... What you can do to support him is to set him up to feel powerful - Could you suggest me example of this please?<<<<

This will be different for every kid but an example from our house has to do with clothes. I used to try to keep things neatly hung up in the closet or folded in drawers. The problem with that is that when it came time to get dressed I had to open the drawers and closets and mediate the whole process. For most kids, that isn't a problem. For my girls, they didn't like it. Now, their clothes are in tubs on the floor so that they can have easy access and wear whatever they want whenever they want. Sometimes, they will ask me for help getting dressed at the beginning of the day but that is it. My younger girls may change clothes 5 or more times a day. Something else that I do is let the kids' "messes" stay there for days at a time. What looks like a mess to me is actually some kind of imaginary play world for my 6 year old. Backing off the idea of cleaning some things has really helped because it gives my kids a bigger sense of ownership of the house as well as their toys. How is your house arranged? Is it easy for him to access food and drinks and anything else that he may want through out the day? Are his toys easy for him to access? Does your house look like a little kid lives there?

You said that your house is a hazard for other kids. Is it a hazard because of your sons toys or is it a hazard because of something else? If it is a hazard because of something else, then perhaps that hazard needs to be fixed or removed. Also, pay close attention to anything he may suggest even if it seems weird to you.

Connie

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joyce Fetteroll

On Oct 29, 2010, at 7:31 AM, t_guyonvarch wrote:

> as I'm most of the time already exhousted (more mentally than
> physically) by the time hubby comes home so I just want him to take
> over from me and just get away from it all.

There's so much in what you've written, I'm sorry to pull out just
this one thing, but it's all I have time for at the moment ...

The problem isn't your exhaustion but the expectation you have that
your husband will relieve it. Basically expecting him to do what he
hasn't taken on for himself is setting him up for failure. So then
you're not only exhausted but disappointed and perhaps a bit angry.

If you were a single mom, you'd still be exhausted at dinner time. So
what would you do?

Fortunately you do have a spouse and you can perhaps draw him in a bit
to help out but leave the expectations of him relieving you of the
burden. See any help he gives as a gift. He's had an exhausting day
too. It's great to have home as a haven. If he sees it as a haven
where he can shift gears, where his presence is appreciated, he's more
likely to come home :-)

And the more you nurture him, the more he'll be able to give back. If
he comes home to you feeling a need to suck at his reserves because
yours are exhausted, he's not going to have anything to give.

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

plaidpanties666

"t_guyonvarch" <titiskarweni@...> wrote:
>>in response to:"...and that may mean Not asking him "do you want to...?"
>
> I can see what you're saying, I'm just now thinking, what else can I say to him as there's nothing left to say for any sort of conversation. Like this whole week we're at home all the time because he doesn't want to go out. Sometimes I ask him: do you want to go to playground? Or do you want to go to softplay? Or do you want to meet this boy (who he likes going to usually)? Should I stop these questions too?
*********************

When Mo was younger, she didn't say "no" very often, but she'd say "shush" anytime anyone said more words than she wanted to hear in the moment. Sometimes one word was too many! That was quite a shock after Ray who liked nearly constant conversation. One of the things I learned was to pare any statement down to a minimum number of words. "Playground?" in a questioning tone, holding open the door, for example, means "would you like to go to the playground?" - pretty clearly if you think about it - and doesn't tax a person who isn't up for too much wordy communication.

But the other, bigger part of communication involved me doing a lot more watching and thinking - seeing when Mo was busy, thinking about how long she usually liked to engage in something, and then trying to time my suggestions to coincide with her natural transitions. I was helped in this regard by reading about a montessorian idea called "normalization" - kids are expected to like to focus on things for "chunks" of time, but there are also natural transitions in and out of those periods of focus and its possible to learn to look for those transitions. Since Mo liked to focus on things for long stretches of time, it was an idea that helped me a whole lot.

>talking about what happened after his meltdown has calmed down doesn't always work and hubby is afraid that son would never learn that things are not always possible to happen as he wants it. But I think son still learns this, probably just more slowly than if we were able to discuss it.
***********************

It doesn't help Mo if I try to initiate a conversation about "what went wrong". It can help if I offer a tidbit of information later... what and how is so circumstantial its hard to think of an example! It might be a word of commiseration, or a suggestion of something else to try next time - but again, with a minimal number of words and often combined with some form of physical communication. So if she was upset because she knocked over her juice while playing a video game, I could set the glass in a different spot with a bland comment: "less spillage" and drop the subject.

>> We've a small indoor trampoline which he uses a lot. We also let him jump and climb on whatever he wants
****************

I know families that have built climbing walls, hung ropes from ceiling joists, all sorts of things to create something like a "playground" at home. We have very little space inside but a lot of land, so we can mostly keep big stuff outside, but in past winters I've rotated larger toys - a big exercise ball, a skateboard, a sit-n-spin, an inflatable punching bag (which makes a great wrestling dummy), even a small slide. Tunnels are good, too, either home-made with blankets over chairs or they make little "pop up" tunnels with flexible frames and cloth sides that are intriguing. We happen to have an old bit of (never used) sewer pipe scavanged from a construction site that was good fun until Mo outgrew it, and just last week we visited a farm where they had straw bales stacked conveniently both for climbing and making little tunnels in between just big enough for Mo to fit through.

>>As I gain more understanding about how you guys look at things, shifting perspectives, and give all control back to the child, I understand that that is what my son has always been trying to tell us. So I slowly introduce the concept to my husband so he can understand why son is doing what he's doing.
*****************

This is largely what I meant about setting him up to feel more powerful - helping your son feel like he has a lot of control over himself and his immediate world. It does take time, but it sounds like you have the idea and are easing in to that.

>>> We suspect he's got Asperger, though diagnosis is not confirmed (but recently I think it doesn't matter whether he's got ASperger or not, what matters is how we can meet his needs).
*******************

That's essentially the understanding I've come to with both my kids - if I can meet their needs without looking for any kind of diagnosis, then I don't really need a diagnosis. I do think its helpful to research all sorts of things if you're looking for ideas and ways to be helpful. I've learned a lot reading The Out of Sync Child, for instance, even though I don't think Mo has a sensory integration disorder... or maybe she does and because I've been able to find ways to meet her needs its not a "problem" its just one of my kid's quirks.

---Meredith (Mo 9, Ray 17)

t_guyonvarch

> The problem isn't your exhaustion but the expectation you have that
> your husband will relieve it.

Thank you Joyce. You're probably right that I need to shift my expectation again. I'll work on it. Not sure how succesful I will be but I'll do something about it.

Titis

t_guyonvarch

> I didn't see your original thread or those replies so I hope I am not repeating anything that they said. My 6 year old didn't go to the potty by herself until she was almost 5. Until then, we got her pull ups. We got her ones with cool characters that she liked. She hated to be changed for any reason. There were days where her pull up would be so saggy that it was almost falling off. Instead of saying anything about the potty, maybe you could simply talk to him about keeping his hands clean. Put packages of wet wipes around the house where it is easy for him to get them himself. If he plays at the computer, keep a pack of wet wipes there so that one of you can clean up without making any kind of a fuss about it. If you see his hands dirty, simply say, "Hey, I see your hands are dirty, here is a wet wipe." Do it very matter of factly without saying anything about the poop. Treat the poop as you would any other kind of dirt without drawing any attention to it.
>

We've tried to offer him back his nappy and potty but he refused (maybe he doesn't want to feel like a baby). And pull up has never been his thing (maybe not comfy because of tendency to fall off when full). He actually doesn't like to have his hands dirty in anyway (probably has some sensory issue here) so if he feels something on his hands, his automatic reaction would be to wipe it somewhere like clothes, table etc. When he doesn't feel it anymore (because it gets dry, not because it's clean) then he's not bothered. Sometimes even refuse me cleaning it.

But I will try your suggestion cleaning him without a fuss and treat his poop like other dirt (again I will need to make changes in my head as this will be so difficult to do).

> For now, I would stop asking. If there is a cool activity that you think he will like, plan to do it and tell him that you have made the plans. I have found that my girls will respond better when I make the plans and tell them about it and then help them get ready. Sometimes, we cancel our plans because one or more of my girls don't want to go when it comes right down to it. That is usually a decision made at the last minute though. One of my daughters gets really overwhelmed when I ask too many questions so I just have to try to do things without actually asking about it. If I ask my 3.5 year old what she wants to eat, she is unable to make a decision and gets really frustrated with me. Instead of asking her, I will get a plate of food for me that has food on it that she likes. When I sit down to eat "my" food, she will come join me. Likewise, when going places, she gets overwhelmed when I give her choices or ask her where she wants to go. Choice is great unless that choice is overwhelming. Sometimes my kids will tell me no because they are overwhelmed by all the choices that I give them. That is when I have to back off. The hard part is that sometimes they want the choice and sometimes they want me to make the choice for them. It can be tough to figure out when to give them choice and when not to.
>

Again you're probably right that my asking him and giving choce is overwhelming, and perhaps he also doesn't even know what he wants. I'll try your suggestion of not giving him choices. Hope I'll get the timing right, at least most of the time.

> Have you thought about getting a swing? There are some really cool hammock swings that kind of sandwich you. My 6 year old loves our hammock swing because it holds her tight and lets her get swung really high. She can also sit in it and spin around and around and around. Pushing a swing is pretty easy to do when you are tired.
>

Could you send me a link to this hammock swing? Sounds interesting. I just typed in google but what came up didn't match your description.

> What about a gaming system? My very active 6 year old loves her Nintendo DS. You can also check out military games on the computer. There are lots of them out there.
>

Been thinking about Nin DS for a while now, but not sure yet as haven't seen any game that he might like (but then I haven't spent any time researching) though transformer maybe a candidate. Will look again. Son is currently playing the game that hubby plays. Actually he's interested in nearly all the games we play, but often get frustrated when it doesn't work as he wants (because he doesn't understand how things work as he can't read yet). I was more thinking about what other things apart from pc games that we can offer him (think hubby knows quite a bit about game, it's his thing).

>....Something else that I do is let the kids' "messes" stay there for days at a time. What looks like a mess to me is actually some kind of imaginary play world for my 6 year old. Backing off the idea of cleaning some things has really helped because it gives my kids a bigger sense of ownership of the house as well as their toys. How is your house arranged? Is it easy for him to access food and drinks and anything else that he may want through out the day? Are his toys easy for him to access? Does your house look like a little kid lives there?
>

Since we moved to this current house (only since april this year) we try to make everything accessible for him (borrowing montessori's ideas). So yes all plates, cups, food cupboard are at his reach. We also have step stool always there in case he can't reach anything. His clothes are also in drawers that he can reach himself. ALl his toys are the same. I think my house looks more like no adult lives there. The hazard I'm talking about is because of his toys everywhere. Whenever we want to invite other people (even if they have kids too), we'll have to collect things from the whole house first and keep them in the lounge so at least people can get in without tripping over. It's not hazard for my son because he's used to have things around everywhere and he rarely trips over (though it did happend).

Many thanks for your suggestions.
Titis

t_guyonvarch

>
> When Mo was younger, she didn't say "no" very often, but she'd say "shush" anytime anyone said more words than she wanted to hear in the moment. Sometimes one word was too many! That was quite a shock after Ray who liked nearly constant conversation. One of the things I learned was to pare any statement down to a minimum number of words. "Playground?" in a questioning tone, holding open the door, for example, means "would you like to go to the playground?" - pretty clearly if you think about it - and doesn't tax a person who isn't up for too much wordy communication.
>
This is interesting, never thought that one word could be too many! But you're right that questions don't need to be delivered as a whole sentence if one word is enough when accompanied with gesture. Will try to remember that.

> But the other, bigger part of communication involved me doing a lot more watching and thinking - seeing when Mo was busy, thinking about how long she usually liked to engage in something, and then trying to time my suggestions to coincide with her natural transitions. I was helped in this regard by reading about a montessorian idea called "normalization" - kids are expected to like to focus on things for "chunks" of time, but there are also natural transitions in and out of those periods of focus and its possible to learn to look for those transitions. Since Mo liked to focus on things for long stretches of time, it was an idea that helped me a whole lot.
>
My son is very intense (I used to think he likes to binge) and has problem transitioning. For example, today he was playing this one game from the time he woke up this morning around 7.30 until about 7pm, with just a quick break to jump on the bed and sometimes to ask me to do something for him. When I try to suggest him to do something else during those breaks, he said no, I'm still playing. The same as when we go to playground or softplay or anything at all that he likes to do. Not long ago he played in the sandpit in a new playground not far from our house for 5.5hrs straight, no break whatsoever. And he did this three days in a row. Another time he played in the softplay and able to run, climb and jump everywere for 6 hrs straight, again no break at all. I had to catch him occasionally to make sure he kept hydrated. He's very focus on something that he filters out pretty much everything else, also even when it was so obvious that he was physically unable to run properly because he was so tired. I know that I can do only one thing a day with him. Planning to do more is not going to work unless I'm ready for his meltdown.

I'm not sure I can see when this natural transition happens. I guess I need to watch him more closely while keeping this objective in mind.

> It doesn't help Mo if I try to initiate a conversation about "what went wrong". It can help if I offer a tidbit of information later... what and how is so circumstantial its hard to think of an example! It might be a word of commiseration, or a suggestion of something else to try next time - but again, with a minimal number of words and often combined with some form of physical communication. So if she was upset because she knocked over her juice while playing a video game, I could set the glass in a different spot with a bland comment: "less spillage" and drop the subject.
>

I will try this too.

> I know families that have built climbing walls, hung ropes from ceiling joists, all sorts of things to create something like a "playground" at home. We have very little space inside but a lot of land, so we can mostly keep big stuff outside, but in past winters I've rotated larger toys - a big exercise ball, a skateboard, a sit-n-spin, an inflatable punching bag (which makes a great wrestling dummy), even a small slide. Tunnels are good, too, either home-made with blankets over chairs or they make little "pop up" tunnels with flexible frames and cloth sides that are intriguing. We happen to have an old bit of (never used) sewer pipe scavanged from a construction site that was good fun until Mo outgrew it, and just last week we visited a farm where they had straw bales stacked conveniently both for climbing and making little tunnels in between just big enough for Mo to fit through.
>

Lots of interesting ideas here, though not sure how many we can have in our place. We have some space indoor and outdoor but not much at all so not sure how much we can cram in. We have pop up tunnel but son is not that keen. We made a den in the lounge twice this week and he loves it. The last one is still there now. He likes to do his tank battle there, even lunch and dinner too.

I think I need more of these kinds of creative ideas like your straw bales or sewer pipe. Also rotating things is useful idea.


> That's essentially the understanding I've come to with both my kids - if I can meet their needs without looking for any kind of diagnosis, then I don't really need a diagnosis. I do think its helpful to research all sorts of things if you're looking for ideas and ways to be helpful. I've learned a lot reading The Out of Sync Child, for instance, even though I don't think Mo has a sensory integration disorder... or maybe she does and because I've been able to find ways to meet her needs its not a "problem" its just one of my kid's quirks.
>

Yep, I have read several books too, though not the out of sync child. I think he has auditory issues and vestibular too. Not sure he has others or not. I need to re start reading them again. I've stopped reading about sensory issues since I focused so much recently on the unschooling side of things.

Thanks so much for your suggestions.
Titis

JJ

Remembering both our happily unschooling children seemed they would never get out of diapers and Pullups. I think daughter was almost 5 and son perhaps fully 5-plus, before the last wetting or soiling anywhere but uneventfully in the toilet.

JJ

>
> > My 6 year old didn't go to the potty by herself until she was almost 5. Until then, we got her pull ups. We got her ones with cool characters that she liked.

[email protected]

I wasn't suggesting you say nothing when he is sitting there in filth.

I had the idea that there was a problem before that. That you were bugging him and he was just saying "no" automatically when, if he got to think of it himself, he might be likely to go to the bathroom when he needs to.

But it sounds like that may or may not be anywhere near the target.




--- In [email protected], "t_guyonvarch" <titiskarweni@...> wrote:
>
> Thank you Meredith and Nance for getting back to me. I was already started thinking that there's nothing I can do as nobody has anything to tell me. So thank you.
>
> I have now stopped my self - when I remember - from saying anything about his toileting. However, I find it hard to not say anything when he has poo in his pants but doesn't want me to clean him. Sometimes he also doesn't realise that he put his hand there (because he's playing so his mind is only in his game) and then the poo goes everywhere (keyboard, mouse, table etc). Also because I don't always know where he's put his hands on so I can't clean it up directly. So revolting when I find it later on. I find it really hard to not say anything in those moments.
>
> We suspect he's got Asperger, though diagnosis is not confirmed (but recently I think it doesn't matter whether he's got ASperger or not, what matters is how we can meet his needs). Communication has always been a problem. It's a one way street, we can only reach him if we are inside his world. Often when we speak to him, looks like he's listening to us, but from his answer, it's obvious that he was listening to his own brain. So, yes, I've learnt to communicate with him through actions rather than word. Sometimes I feel like I have no conversation with anybody unless I go out to meet someone, or someone comes over or when he's already sleeping (which is now very rarely before us). But getting someone over is not easy either as the house is often such a hazard for other kids.


***I don't remember this extreme behavior/situation from your earlier post. Maybe my tired brain. . .





>
> I first heard about unschooling last year, have been slowly implementing it, although radically only recently as I've just found out about this wholelife unschooling recently, as you've guessed Meredith. But him saying No all the time has started even long before that. He's a very "stubborn" (my husband's word) person so doesn't want to be told what to do. This is already since he was very little, only since the last year or so becoming even more forceful.
>
> When I first learnt about radical unschooling I was very interested to apply it but knowing my husband, he would resist the idea. But then I'm thinking radical unschooling is probably the only way we can live in peace knowing that my son always says no and never want to do what we ask him. As I gain more understanding about how you guys look at things, shifting perspectives, and give all control back to the child, I understand that that is what my son has always been trying to tell us. So I slowly introduce the concept to my husband so he can understand why son is doing what he's doing. We first went with the food, it now works better. Then bed time, a nightmare at first but then things settle down, so hubby is accepting more. We are still working on how to handle his meltdowns more peacefully, which was really hard at the beginning, but it's getting much better now. He's a tape recorder (echolalia), often repeats back word for word what we say to him, often in the wrong context. This shows us that he finds it really hard to understand the world. There's nearly no discussion whatsoever with him, nearly impossible to initiate any conversation, it's only when he starts it then we answer him. Even our answers sometimes look as if it was not heard, or not important to him. So talking about what happened after his meltdown has calmed down doesn't always work and hubby is afraid that son would never learn that things are not always possible to happen as he wants it. But I think son still learns this, probably just more slowly than if we were able to discuss it.
>
>
***It sounds like you are making progress -- as slow and difficult as it must seem some days.

Nance

otherstar

From: t_guyonvarch
Sent: Friday, October 29, 2010 2:33 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: help with my 4.5yr


>>>>Could you send me a link to this hammock swing? Sounds interesting. I just typed in google but what came up didn't match your description.<<<

Here is a link to the one I have now: http://www.amazon.com/Texsport-14265-Daydreamer-Chair-Hammock/dp/B000P9IRF6/ref=sr_1_8?ie=UTF8&qid=1288411020&sr=8-8 I picked it up super cheap at a thrift store. I had a different one before that was more like a little papoose that they could sit or stand in. They used it so much that it fell apart. We keep ours hung from a tree in the front yard. Here is another link to a blog that talks about a variety of different swings that can be hung inside or outside: http://dreamgym.wordpress.com/tag/children-with-special-needs/

>>>The hazard I'm talking about is because of his toys everywhere. Whenever we want to invite other people (even if they have kids too), we'll have to collect things from the whole house first and keep them in the lounge so at least people can get in without tripping over. It's not hazard for my son because he's used to have things around everywhere and he rarely trips over (though it did happend).<<<

Our house is like that too. One of the things that we do is put toy boxes in every room of the house to make it easier for a ten second tidy whereby we can simply go from room to room and toss things in the toy box. We had a game that we would play where we lined up the toy boxes behind the couch and tried to throw the toys over the back of the couch to see how many we could actually get in the toy box. With 4 girls, we have toys everywhere so having multiple toy boxes in multiple places helps us to keep things "clean" and safe for visitors. I get a lot of last minute visits from family so I try to at least keep a path through certain rooms.

Connie

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lylaw

there’s an even more sensory soothing swing a couple of friends have that I WISH I had known about when my kids were young – will get the link and share it soon. it’s amazing. it’s a giant pouch.

lyla


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lylaw

here it is:

http://www.southpawenterprises.com/Airwalker-P158.aspx


From: lylaw
Sent: Friday, October 29, 2010 9:31 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Re: help with my 4.5yr


there’s an even more sensory soothing swing a couple of friends have that I WISH I had known about when my kids were young – will get the link and share it soon. it’s amazing. it’s a giant pouch.

lyla

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]