Monopoly madness or a fluid learning experience??
Tori Otero
Hi everyone
I'm looking to get some other perspectives....
This evening my eldest son Luc (17) and his girlfriend H decided to play
monopoly on the dining table, (Neither L or H have had an unschooled
life) Charlie (6) wanted us to join them for the game. L finds the
freedom C has at age (6) difficult to manage. L is C's step brother and
lived with his dad from the age of 6 til 14. C's best friend is having
his B'day tomorrow and has been given the lego set C really desires,
this is difficult.
We agreed a couple of rules at the beginning. C is finding competition
very difficult to manage at the mo but is also very drawn to it....(to
me this feels left over from school)...I have played monopoly at C's
request a number of times over the past week and he has made up his own
rules ( cheated when necessary), he has also been very kind, considerate
and played by the rules. I've gone with this and played on his terms..as
I recognise that he needs to be in control and win at the moment.
I didn't have the opportunity to get the older ones on side and decided
to go with it....after a short while C began to assert himself (to be
expected) and began rigging the dice. L and H found this hard and were
waiting for me to step in a correct C or make it fair...I didn't
although I did acknowledge that C felt it was not ok for him to lose
atm. We continued on sometimes the older two would cheat (and would have
a giggle) sometimes we all played by the rules, sometimes L got annoyed
with C, and asserted himself verbally, at one point when it got too much
he left the room, after a few mins C went up stairs to Luc and
apologised, stating he intended to play by the rules from now on....C
wasn't able to keep to this and L felt and expressed his frustration.
Again if C changed the rules to his advantage, he always made up for it
by helping us all out. (He was much less competative potentially than
any of us, in some ways). It ebbed and flowed like this, we had conflict
and intimacy in the mix, challenge and pleasure and pleasurable
challenges, then it looked like it was all over and we (C and I) were
going to go bankrupt, C started to try and negotiate, and get the others
to empathise and not charge us much rent....this wasn't working (I was
sitting back a little, I thought we would find a way through it) C
threatened to rip up the rules...he had done so before too. L was
sticking to his guns this time and C ripped up the rules....then dad
stepped in and said that the rules belonged to everyone (he had been in
the same room on the computer) and took 'control' of the situation, C
got more upset, shouting at his dad not to interfere....we tried to talk
about it at that point but it was too much for everyone...we stopped
playing and once C had been comforted and was occupied, we began
discussing it.....M (Dad) had was worried about what L and H were
thinking about C. What C thought of me for not saying anything? What C
might do next? How L felt responsible for enforcing the rules, if M
enfrced them then that freed things up between L and C.
Any how we discussed it further and are still processing it, we
discussed L and H's perceptions of the game....and talked more about
unschooling.....explaining C's reaction to the change in the way we live
and work together. They asked some questions and raised some concerns.
Thanks for reading and if you have any thoughts they would be warmly
received. I am especially wondering whether I needed to play a bigger
role in this...another concern of my partner's was that the language I
was using to diffuse the conflict was labeling C as the problem. For
example ' Charlie is finding the thought of loosing really difficult
right now'.
All good wishes
Tori
I'm looking to get some other perspectives....
This evening my eldest son Luc (17) and his girlfriend H decided to play
monopoly on the dining table, (Neither L or H have had an unschooled
life) Charlie (6) wanted us to join them for the game. L finds the
freedom C has at age (6) difficult to manage. L is C's step brother and
lived with his dad from the age of 6 til 14. C's best friend is having
his B'day tomorrow and has been given the lego set C really desires,
this is difficult.
We agreed a couple of rules at the beginning. C is finding competition
very difficult to manage at the mo but is also very drawn to it....(to
me this feels left over from school)...I have played monopoly at C's
request a number of times over the past week and he has made up his own
rules ( cheated when necessary), he has also been very kind, considerate
and played by the rules. I've gone with this and played on his terms..as
I recognise that he needs to be in control and win at the moment.
I didn't have the opportunity to get the older ones on side and decided
to go with it....after a short while C began to assert himself (to be
expected) and began rigging the dice. L and H found this hard and were
waiting for me to step in a correct C or make it fair...I didn't
although I did acknowledge that C felt it was not ok for him to lose
atm. We continued on sometimes the older two would cheat (and would have
a giggle) sometimes we all played by the rules, sometimes L got annoyed
with C, and asserted himself verbally, at one point when it got too much
he left the room, after a few mins C went up stairs to Luc and
apologised, stating he intended to play by the rules from now on....C
wasn't able to keep to this and L felt and expressed his frustration.
Again if C changed the rules to his advantage, he always made up for it
by helping us all out. (He was much less competative potentially than
any of us, in some ways). It ebbed and flowed like this, we had conflict
and intimacy in the mix, challenge and pleasure and pleasurable
challenges, then it looked like it was all over and we (C and I) were
going to go bankrupt, C started to try and negotiate, and get the others
to empathise and not charge us much rent....this wasn't working (I was
sitting back a little, I thought we would find a way through it) C
threatened to rip up the rules...he had done so before too. L was
sticking to his guns this time and C ripped up the rules....then dad
stepped in and said that the rules belonged to everyone (he had been in
the same room on the computer) and took 'control' of the situation, C
got more upset, shouting at his dad not to interfere....we tried to talk
about it at that point but it was too much for everyone...we stopped
playing and once C had been comforted and was occupied, we began
discussing it.....M (Dad) had was worried about what L and H were
thinking about C. What C thought of me for not saying anything? What C
might do next? How L felt responsible for enforcing the rules, if M
enfrced them then that freed things up between L and C.
Any how we discussed it further and are still processing it, we
discussed L and H's perceptions of the game....and talked more about
unschooling.....explaining C's reaction to the change in the way we live
and work together. They asked some questions and raised some concerns.
Thanks for reading and if you have any thoughts they would be warmly
received. I am especially wondering whether I needed to play a bigger
role in this...another concern of my partner's was that the language I
was using to diffuse the conflict was labeling C as the problem. For
example ' Charlie is finding the thought of loosing really difficult
right now'.
All good wishes
Tori
Karen Swanay
This is not going to be your favorite response...but I have to say it.
First, and this is just my general preference, it's SO much easier to follow
a long narrative when the names are used each time. (Not picking on you,
lots of people on here do that or the dh thing...)
OK here it is. Your son Luc has to watch you and your new husband raise
Charlie in ONE home. Charlie doesn't have to deal with visitation,
different homes, the romance of his newly divorced parents etc...Luc did.
While he was still living in chaos from not having an intact home, you made
a new one with a new man that Luc didn't choose and then you made another
kid who you now *appear* to be indulging at every whim **EVEN WHEN** the
little bugger is cheating! How is Luc supposed to feel? I see where you
are very concerned that Charlie never feels stepped on, but it looks to me
like everyone else has footprints on their backs but Charlie. How is Luc
supposed to feel about this kid? It's not going to make them bond or be
close like brothers. It LOOKS as if Charlie is the favorite. And then when
it's contrasted against whatever parenting techniques were used on Luc and
the chaos of his childhood, I can see how he might be resentful. Have you
sat with him and REALLY listened to his (Luc's) feelings about how his life
went? I would. And then I'd apologize for screwing up his childhood.
Either by picking a bad man to have sex with or not being willing/able to
keep a marriage together. And I know it's not all your fault and I know
nothing about the first marriage but I would be willing to bet that Luc
still carries hurt from his childhood and no matter which partner was more
responsible for the breakup, it couldn't have been any of Luc's fault but he
paid the price. I'd just "go belly up" for Luc and REALLY listen without
being defensive because at 17 he might look like a man but he's not that old
yet. He still needs his mother.
RE: the monopoly mess...I'll let someone else take that but I will say
this. I hate that game. =P Even Dane Cook (the comedian) has a bit he
does about playing Monopoly http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cu3fxoLNZUs I
don't know that I've ever seen a game end without someone being pissed off
and mad. We don't even have it in the house!
Anyway, I hope you don't feel attacked because I don't mean to sound like
that. I just read your story and couldn't help but think about Luc the
whole way through and how he might be hurt and acting out in his own way for
just a little of the attention he sees his little brother getting TONS of.
And if I'm honest...I'm the child of divorce and I remember the chaos and
how long it took to get over feeling hurt by it. So maybe Luc is OK with
it, but I'm guessing he's not. And while it's good to honor Charlie, it
shouldn't be done at the expense of Luc and his feelings, which it kind of
seems like it was.
Karen
From House, MD discussing parents of a child with Autism --
Dr Allison Cameron:Is it so wrong for them to want to have a normal child?
It's normal to want to be normal.
House: Spoken like a true circle queen. See, skinny socially privileged
white people get to draw this neat little circle, and everyone inside the
circle is normal, anyone outside the circle should be beaten, broken and
reset so they can be brought into the circle. Failing that, they should be
institutionalized or worse, pitied.
First, and this is just my general preference, it's SO much easier to follow
a long narrative when the names are used each time. (Not picking on you,
lots of people on here do that or the dh thing...)
OK here it is. Your son Luc has to watch you and your new husband raise
Charlie in ONE home. Charlie doesn't have to deal with visitation,
different homes, the romance of his newly divorced parents etc...Luc did.
While he was still living in chaos from not having an intact home, you made
a new one with a new man that Luc didn't choose and then you made another
kid who you now *appear* to be indulging at every whim **EVEN WHEN** the
little bugger is cheating! How is Luc supposed to feel? I see where you
are very concerned that Charlie never feels stepped on, but it looks to me
like everyone else has footprints on their backs but Charlie. How is Luc
supposed to feel about this kid? It's not going to make them bond or be
close like brothers. It LOOKS as if Charlie is the favorite. And then when
it's contrasted against whatever parenting techniques were used on Luc and
the chaos of his childhood, I can see how he might be resentful. Have you
sat with him and REALLY listened to his (Luc's) feelings about how his life
went? I would. And then I'd apologize for screwing up his childhood.
Either by picking a bad man to have sex with or not being willing/able to
keep a marriage together. And I know it's not all your fault and I know
nothing about the first marriage but I would be willing to bet that Luc
still carries hurt from his childhood and no matter which partner was more
responsible for the breakup, it couldn't have been any of Luc's fault but he
paid the price. I'd just "go belly up" for Luc and REALLY listen without
being defensive because at 17 he might look like a man but he's not that old
yet. He still needs his mother.
RE: the monopoly mess...I'll let someone else take that but I will say
this. I hate that game. =P Even Dane Cook (the comedian) has a bit he
does about playing Monopoly http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cu3fxoLNZUs I
don't know that I've ever seen a game end without someone being pissed off
and mad. We don't even have it in the house!
Anyway, I hope you don't feel attacked because I don't mean to sound like
that. I just read your story and couldn't help but think about Luc the
whole way through and how he might be hurt and acting out in his own way for
just a little of the attention he sees his little brother getting TONS of.
And if I'm honest...I'm the child of divorce and I remember the chaos and
how long it took to get over feeling hurt by it. So maybe Luc is OK with
it, but I'm guessing he's not. And while it's good to honor Charlie, it
shouldn't be done at the expense of Luc and his feelings, which it kind of
seems like it was.
Karen
From House, MD discussing parents of a child with Autism --
Dr Allison Cameron:Is it so wrong for them to want to have a normal child?
It's normal to want to be normal.
House: Spoken like a true circle queen. See, skinny socially privileged
white people get to draw this neat little circle, and everyone inside the
circle is normal, anyone outside the circle should be beaten, broken and
reset so they can be brought into the circle. Failing that, they should be
institutionalized or worse, pitied.
On Mon, Oct 25, 2010 at 8:04 PM, Tori Otero <tori.otero@...> wrote:
>
>
> Hi everyone
>
> I'm looking to get some other perspectives....
>
> This evening my eldest son Luc (17) and his girlfriend H decided to play
> monopoly on the dining table, (Neither L or H have had an unschooled
> life) Charlie (6) wanted us to join them for the game. L finds the
> freedom C has at age (6) difficult to manage. L is C's step brother and
> lived with his dad from the age of 6 til 14. C's best friend is having
> his B'day tomorrow and has been given the lego set C really desires,
> this is difficult.
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Schuyler
________________________________
From: Karen Swanay <luvbullbreeds@...>
RE: the monopoly mess...I'll let someone else take that but I will say
this. I hate that game. =P Even Dane Cook (the comedian) has a bit he
does about playing Monopoly http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cu3fxoLNZUs I
don't know that I've ever seen a game end without someone being pissed off
and mad. We don't even have it in the house!
-----------------------
We have monopoly in the house and will play it occasionally. The game is
fascinating to me in the way Simon and Linnaea play it. They help, they give
money and properties, they don't want anyone to fail and they work to have
cooperative ventures. They've played at their friends' houses and I know they do
the same there. There isn't any rule following, just affection and generousity
and pleasure in sitting around hoping to get to the hotels.
When Simon was fairly young he and I were playing the Pokemon board game in the
front garden. Another slightly older boy came over and joined in with us. While
we were playing Simon got upset because he didn't catch a pokemon and I wasn't
willing to let him cheat to get it. The other boy asked me why. Why not just let
Simon have the pokemon and then the game could go ahead and no one would be
unhappy about any of it. It had never occurred to me that playing a game was
about the pleasure of the game instead of being about some sort of learning
moment about rules and learning how to lose well and so on and so forth. I
stepped back and have never really focussed on being rule bound in a game since.
It is important to make sure that all the players are willing to go against the
grain when playing with a looser hold on the rules. And sometimes someone is so
invested in the notion of winning that dispensing with the rules makes the game
absolutely no fun for them. Mostly, though, people like the idea of playing for
the sake of company and conversation and engagement instead of winning.
Schuyler
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
From: Karen Swanay <luvbullbreeds@...>
RE: the monopoly mess...I'll let someone else take that but I will say
this. I hate that game. =P Even Dane Cook (the comedian) has a bit he
does about playing Monopoly http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cu3fxoLNZUs I
don't know that I've ever seen a game end without someone being pissed off
and mad. We don't even have it in the house!
-----------------------
We have monopoly in the house and will play it occasionally. The game is
fascinating to me in the way Simon and Linnaea play it. They help, they give
money and properties, they don't want anyone to fail and they work to have
cooperative ventures. They've played at their friends' houses and I know they do
the same there. There isn't any rule following, just affection and generousity
and pleasure in sitting around hoping to get to the hotels.
When Simon was fairly young he and I were playing the Pokemon board game in the
front garden. Another slightly older boy came over and joined in with us. While
we were playing Simon got upset because he didn't catch a pokemon and I wasn't
willing to let him cheat to get it. The other boy asked me why. Why not just let
Simon have the pokemon and then the game could go ahead and no one would be
unhappy about any of it. It had never occurred to me that playing a game was
about the pleasure of the game instead of being about some sort of learning
moment about rules and learning how to lose well and so on and so forth. I
stepped back and have never really focussed on being rule bound in a game since.
It is important to make sure that all the players are willing to go against the
grain when playing with a looser hold on the rules. And sometimes someone is so
invested in the notion of winning that dispensing with the rules makes the game
absolutely no fun for them. Mostly, though, people like the idea of playing for
the sake of company and conversation and engagement instead of winning.
Schuyler
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
Did the older kids have the chance to say no? That they wanted to finish their game and might play a group game later?
Nance
Nance
--- In [email protected], Tori Otero <tori.otero@...> wrote:
>
> Hi everyone
>
> I'm looking to get some other perspectives....
>
> This evening my eldest son Luc (17) and his girlfriend H decided to play
> monopoly on the dining table, (Neither L or H have had an unschooled
> life) Charlie (6) wanted us to join them for the game. L finds the
> freedom C has at age (6) difficult to manage. L is C's step brother and
> lived with his dad from the age of 6 til 14. C's best friend is having
> his B'day tomorrow and has been given the lego set C really desires,
> this is difficult.
>
> We agreed a couple of rules at the beginning. C is finding competition
> very difficult to manage at the mo but is also very drawn to it....(to
> me this feels left over from school)...I have played monopoly at C's
> request a number of times over the past week and he has made up his own
> rules ( cheated when necessary), he has also been very kind, considerate
> and played by the rules. I've gone with this and played on his terms..as
> I recognise that he needs to be in control and win at the moment.
>
> I didn't have the opportunity to get the older ones on side and decided
> to go with it....after a short while C began to assert himself (to be
> expected) and began rigging the dice. L and H found this hard and were
> waiting for me to step in a correct C or make it fair...I didn't
> although I did acknowledge that C felt it was not ok for him to lose
> atm. We continued on sometimes the older two would cheat (and would have
> a giggle) sometimes we all played by the rules, sometimes L got annoyed
> with C, and asserted himself verbally, at one point when it got too much
> he left the room, after a few mins C went up stairs to Luc and
> apologised, stating he intended to play by the rules from now on....C
> wasn't able to keep to this and L felt and expressed his frustration.
>
> Again if C changed the rules to his advantage, he always made up for it
> by helping us all out. (He was much less competative potentially than
> any of us, in some ways). It ebbed and flowed like this, we had conflict
> and intimacy in the mix, challenge and pleasure and pleasurable
> challenges, then it looked like it was all over and we (C and I) were
> going to go bankrupt, C started to try and negotiate, and get the others
> to empathise and not charge us much rent....this wasn't working (I was
> sitting back a little, I thought we would find a way through it) C
> threatened to rip up the rules...he had done so before too. L was
> sticking to his guns this time and C ripped up the rules....then dad
> stepped in and said that the rules belonged to everyone (he had been in
> the same room on the computer) and took 'control' of the situation, C
> got more upset, shouting at his dad not to interfere....we tried to talk
> about it at that point but it was too much for everyone...we stopped
> playing and once C had been comforted and was occupied, we began
> discussing it.....M (Dad) had was worried about what L and H were
> thinking about C. What C thought of me for not saying anything? What C
> might do next? How L felt responsible for enforcing the rules, if M
> enfrced them then that freed things up between L and C.
>
> Any how we discussed it further and are still processing it, we
> discussed L and H's perceptions of the game....and talked more about
> unschooling.....explaining C's reaction to the change in the way we live
> and work together. They asked some questions and raised some concerns.
>
> Thanks for reading and if you have any thoughts they would be warmly
> received. I am especially wondering whether I needed to play a bigger
> role in this...another concern of my partner's was that the language I
> was using to diffuse the conflict was labeling C as the problem. For
> example ' Charlie is finding the thought of loosing really difficult
> right now'.
>
> All good wishes
> Tori
>
otherstar
From: Tori Otero
Sent: Monday, October 25, 2010 8:04 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Monopoly madness or a fluid learning experience??
What kind of relationship do the 6 year old and 17 year old have? Do you extend unschooling principles to the 17 year old? From the sound of your post, it almost sounds as if the 6 year old is unschooled to the exclusion of everyone else. Why does it matter if the 17 year old doesn't have an unschooling background? That just means that he might need more understanding. Did the 17 year old invite the 6 year old to play or did the 6 year old invite himself? If the 17 year old didn't invite the 6 year old, then perhaps you need to be more alert and find other ways to engage the 6 year old when the 17 year old is trying to hang out with his girlfriend.
You agreed to the rules at the beginning. When the 6 year old wanted to change the rules, did you ask everyone else if they were okay with it or did you just let him do it without giving anybody else the option of giving any input? You stated that they acted like they were waiting for you to step in. Whenever one of my older girls looks for me to step in, that means that they are trying to be considerate but don't really know how to approach the situation. That is when I try to step in. Sometimes stepping in can be something as simple as saying, "Hey, you can't change the rules unless it is okay with everyone else." Sometimes acknowledging the other people and their feelings goes a long way. A lot of fun can be taken out of a game when one person tries to take over and change things on a whim to suit themselves. While it is pretty age appropriate of the 6 year old, I can see where it would be a huge source of frustration for the 17 year old. I have found that it doesn't matter whether or not you follow the rules of a game as long as everyone involved agrees to it and is having fun. When somebody stops having fun, then it is time to reassess the situation especially when siblings are involved.
I don't think this situation has as much to do with Monopoly as it has to do with sibling relationships. There is a page on Sandra's site about siblings: http://sandradodd.com/siblings The section on sharing might be good for this situation as would the section on Responsibility for Siblings. In a way, allowing your 6 year old to do whatever he wants in the game with the 17 year old is making the 17 year old responsible for the 6 year old's feelings. I almost get the sense that the 17 year old is afraid to say anything to you about the 6 year old, which might be why he looked to you to intervene. When you didn't intervene, that sent the message that your 6 year old is more important than him and his girlfriend. Whether or not that is true is irrelevant. That could be how the situation was perceived by the 17 year old. You have mentioned a lot of acknowledgement of your 6 year old but you have not mentioned any kind of acknowledgement towards the older kids. You mentioned that the 17 year old has trouble with the level of freedom that your 6 year old has. How often does that freedom require the 17 year old to be understanding and forgiving? How often does that freedom infringe on the life of the 17 year old? You don't have to answer those questions here but they are something to think about.
Connie
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sent: Monday, October 25, 2010 8:04 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Monopoly madness or a fluid learning experience??
>>>>I'm looking to get some other perspectives....<<<I had a couple of thoughts while reading your post.
What kind of relationship do the 6 year old and 17 year old have? Do you extend unschooling principles to the 17 year old? From the sound of your post, it almost sounds as if the 6 year old is unschooled to the exclusion of everyone else. Why does it matter if the 17 year old doesn't have an unschooling background? That just means that he might need more understanding. Did the 17 year old invite the 6 year old to play or did the 6 year old invite himself? If the 17 year old didn't invite the 6 year old, then perhaps you need to be more alert and find other ways to engage the 6 year old when the 17 year old is trying to hang out with his girlfriend.
You agreed to the rules at the beginning. When the 6 year old wanted to change the rules, did you ask everyone else if they were okay with it or did you just let him do it without giving anybody else the option of giving any input? You stated that they acted like they were waiting for you to step in. Whenever one of my older girls looks for me to step in, that means that they are trying to be considerate but don't really know how to approach the situation. That is when I try to step in. Sometimes stepping in can be something as simple as saying, "Hey, you can't change the rules unless it is okay with everyone else." Sometimes acknowledging the other people and their feelings goes a long way. A lot of fun can be taken out of a game when one person tries to take over and change things on a whim to suit themselves. While it is pretty age appropriate of the 6 year old, I can see where it would be a huge source of frustration for the 17 year old. I have found that it doesn't matter whether or not you follow the rules of a game as long as everyone involved agrees to it and is having fun. When somebody stops having fun, then it is time to reassess the situation especially when siblings are involved.
I don't think this situation has as much to do with Monopoly as it has to do with sibling relationships. There is a page on Sandra's site about siblings: http://sandradodd.com/siblings The section on sharing might be good for this situation as would the section on Responsibility for Siblings. In a way, allowing your 6 year old to do whatever he wants in the game with the 17 year old is making the 17 year old responsible for the 6 year old's feelings. I almost get the sense that the 17 year old is afraid to say anything to you about the 6 year old, which might be why he looked to you to intervene. When you didn't intervene, that sent the message that your 6 year old is more important than him and his girlfriend. Whether or not that is true is irrelevant. That could be how the situation was perceived by the 17 year old. You have mentioned a lot of acknowledgement of your 6 year old but you have not mentioned any kind of acknowledgement towards the older kids. You mentioned that the 17 year old has trouble with the level of freedom that your 6 year old has. How often does that freedom require the 17 year old to be understanding and forgiving? How often does that freedom infringe on the life of the 17 year old? You don't have to answer those questions here but they are something to think about.
Connie
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Tori Otero
Firstly apologies for the way my first post was written. I don't feel
picked on and don't really get the dh thing but I'll look into it and
perhaps use it when next writing a long narrative.
I'm really quite happy to receive feedback about my parenting...I
absolutely agree with you that Luc's life isn't what I wanted it to be,
it has been chaotic and he has had to manage an awful lot. I acknowledge
that he will feel resentful and pissed off about the whole thing....we
have spoken, many times and of course I have owned my part and
apologised and acknowledged how unfair it has been and how the
expectations placed on him we're far to high and put him under a lot of
pressure. We discuss everything and have a very open
relationship.....altho Luc hasn't had an un schooling life, for the past
three years I have supported him to make his own choices.....he found
school really hard and socially very difficult. He was labeled
'academic' but disliked school work and the control schools exert.
He is very much his own person....he plays the electric guitar and has
gone to college to do performance music, he is into heavy metal and
directs a lot of his anger and expresses the unfairness/injustice
through his music. We are quite permissive when it comes to expression,
and allow him to explore some of the 'darker' feelings/areas without
criticism and with support. When he came to live with us he struggled
very much to identify and voice his needs and desires, he was extremely
compliant, we have worked together so that he has felt ok to do so...
I have got so many things wrong over the years.....we have muddled
through and it has impacted on my kids. However there was a time that I
experienced so much guilt that it crippled me and made it a real
struggle to have a relationship with my two older children. It kept me
out of their lives for a while. We have come a long way.....things are
so much better and I think Luc feels he belongs, he shares similar ways
of thinking....it's not ideal and if i could change things I would.
Thanks for you feedback
All good wishes Tori
picked on and don't really get the dh thing but I'll look into it and
perhaps use it when next writing a long narrative.
I'm really quite happy to receive feedback about my parenting...I
absolutely agree with you that Luc's life isn't what I wanted it to be,
it has been chaotic and he has had to manage an awful lot. I acknowledge
that he will feel resentful and pissed off about the whole thing....we
have spoken, many times and of course I have owned my part and
apologised and acknowledged how unfair it has been and how the
expectations placed on him we're far to high and put him under a lot of
pressure. We discuss everything and have a very open
relationship.....altho Luc hasn't had an un schooling life, for the past
three years I have supported him to make his own choices.....he found
school really hard and socially very difficult. He was labeled
'academic' but disliked school work and the control schools exert.
He is very much his own person....he plays the electric guitar and has
gone to college to do performance music, he is into heavy metal and
directs a lot of his anger and expresses the unfairness/injustice
through his music. We are quite permissive when it comes to expression,
and allow him to explore some of the 'darker' feelings/areas without
criticism and with support. When he came to live with us he struggled
very much to identify and voice his needs and desires, he was extremely
compliant, we have worked together so that he has felt ok to do so...
I have got so many things wrong over the years.....we have muddled
through and it has impacted on my kids. However there was a time that I
experienced so much guilt that it crippled me and made it a real
struggle to have a relationship with my two older children. It kept me
out of their lives for a while. We have come a long way.....things are
so much better and I think Luc feels he belongs, he shares similar ways
of thinking....it's not ideal and if i could change things I would.
Thanks for you feedback
All good wishes Tori
Tori Otero
On reflection I think it happened too quickly and I didn't help to slow
it down enough, to ensure that everyones needs were considered....you
live and learn.
Thanks T
marbleface@... wrote:
it down enough, to ensure that everyones needs were considered....you
live and learn.
Thanks T
marbleface@... wrote:
>
> Did the older kids have the chance to say no? That they wanted to
> finish their game and might play a group game later?
Tori Otero
Cheers Connie....
I think that perhaps I have been too idealistic about us being able to
play Monopoly together. This makes me feel quite sad, that I didn't take
into account where their relationship was at and the stages and feelings
of all concerned. On the other hand I think it wasn't too bad
considering and we worked it out and through as we went along.
We do extend 'unschoooling' freedoms to all our children and we are not
operating a two tier system....sorry if it came across like that.
Charlie's freedoms don't tend to impact on Luc in the present, Luc feels
envious of the freedoms Charlie has cos he would have liked them when he
was younger, we don't dismiss this, I own my part, I acknowledge and
apologise. Luc very much does his own thing.....and is his own person.
It matters that he was 'unschooled', I believe it helps to acknowledge
differences... and be able to discuss stuff...not to pretend that they
don't exist. This doesn't mean alienating anybody.
Luc was expressing how he felt and having it acknowledged during the
game....Charlie too....I didn't want to take sides or control of the
game or force the situation for anyone...
I actually feel there was a certain amount of co operation and pleasure,
as well as conflict during the game. Everyone is in different places and
stages of understanding and everyone has different
experiences....everyone has different needs and feelings....I'm not sure
how helpful it is to let these differences keep us from playing and
working together....cos of the potential for conflict or difficult
feelings. I have in the past instructed my kids morally, and it's
something I want to get out of the habit of doing...maybe that could be
viewed as irresponsible or not supportive....but I work very hard at
keeping my mouth shut. It comes alot easier to tell a six year old how
to play fairly.....to be fair until we started 'unschooling' thats what
he did, played by the rules....now he's exploring his freedom and
choices......Luc is also exploring his own freedom and choices..... I
don't want to 'make' them have a 'good' relationship.....I would love it
if they do..they will work it through...there is adult guidance and
nothing got too out of hand.
Sorry think I have started to ramble.....
All good wishes
Tori
//
otherstar wrote:
I think that perhaps I have been too idealistic about us being able to
play Monopoly together. This makes me feel quite sad, that I didn't take
into account where their relationship was at and the stages and feelings
of all concerned. On the other hand I think it wasn't too bad
considering and we worked it out and through as we went along.
We do extend 'unschoooling' freedoms to all our children and we are not
operating a two tier system....sorry if it came across like that.
Charlie's freedoms don't tend to impact on Luc in the present, Luc feels
envious of the freedoms Charlie has cos he would have liked them when he
was younger, we don't dismiss this, I own my part, I acknowledge and
apologise. Luc very much does his own thing.....and is his own person.
It matters that he was 'unschooled', I believe it helps to acknowledge
differences... and be able to discuss stuff...not to pretend that they
don't exist. This doesn't mean alienating anybody.
Luc was expressing how he felt and having it acknowledged during the
game....Charlie too....I didn't want to take sides or control of the
game or force the situation for anyone...
I actually feel there was a certain amount of co operation and pleasure,
as well as conflict during the game. Everyone is in different places and
stages of understanding and everyone has different
experiences....everyone has different needs and feelings....I'm not sure
how helpful it is to let these differences keep us from playing and
working together....cos of the potential for conflict or difficult
feelings. I have in the past instructed my kids morally, and it's
something I want to get out of the habit of doing...maybe that could be
viewed as irresponsible or not supportive....but I work very hard at
keeping my mouth shut. It comes alot easier to tell a six year old how
to play fairly.....to be fair until we started 'unschooling' thats what
he did, played by the rules....now he's exploring his freedom and
choices......Luc is also exploring his own freedom and choices..... I
don't want to 'make' them have a 'good' relationship.....I would love it
if they do..they will work it through...there is adult guidance and
nothing got too out of hand.
Sorry think I have started to ramble.....
All good wishes
Tori
//
otherstar wrote:
>
> From: Tori Otero
> Sent: Monday, October 25, 2010 8:04 PM
> To: [email protected]
> <mailto:unschoolingbasics%40yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Monopoly madness or a fluid learning
> experience??
>
> >>>>I'm looking to get some other perspectives....<<<
>
> I had a couple of thoughts while reading your post.
>
> What kind of relationship do the 6 year old and 17 year old have? Do
> you extend unschooling principles to the 17 year old? From the sound
> of your post, it almost sounds as if the 6 year old is unschooled to
> the exclusion of everyone else. Why does it matter if the 17 year old
> doesn't have an unschooling background? That just means that he might
> need more understanding. Did the 17 year old invite the 6 year old to
> play or did the 6 year old invite himself? If the 17 year old didn't
> invite the 6 year old, then perhaps you need to be more alert and find
> other ways to engage the 6 year old when the 17 year old is trying to
> hang out with his girlfriend.
>
> You agreed to the rules at the beginning. When the 6 year old wanted
> to change the rules, did you ask everyone else if they were okay with
> it or did you just let him do it without giving anybody else the
> option of giving any input? You stated that they acted like they were
> waiting for you to step in. Whenever one of my older girls looks for
> me to step in, that means that they are trying to be considerate but
> don't really know how to approach the situation. That is when I try to
> step in. Sometimes stepping in can be something as simple as saying,
> "Hey, you can't change the rules unless it is okay with everyone
> else." Sometimes acknowledging the other people and their feelings
> goes a long way. A lot of fun can be taken out of a game when one
> person tries to take over and change things on a whim to suit
> themselves. While it is pretty age appropriate of the 6 year old, I
> can see where it would be a huge source of frustration for the 17 year
> old. I have found that it doesn't matter whether or not you follow the
> rules of a game as long as everyone involved agrees to it and is
> having fun. When somebody stops having fun, then it is time to
> reassess the situation especially when siblings are involved.
>
> I don't think this situation has as much to do with Monopoly as it has
> to do with sibling relationships. There is a page on Sandra's site
> about siblings: http://sandradodd.com/siblings The section on sharing
> might be good for this situation as would the section on
> Responsibility for Siblings. In a way, allowing your 6 year old to do
> whatever he wants in the game with the 17 year old is making the 17
> year old responsible for the 6 year old's feelings. I almost get the
> sense that the 17 year old is afraid to say anything to you about the
> 6 year old, which might be why he looked to you to intervene. When you
> didn't intervene, that sent the message that your 6 year old is more
> important than him and his girlfriend. Whether or not that is true is
> irrelevant. That could be how the situation was perceived by the 17
> year old. You have mentioned a lot of acknowledgement of your 6 year
> old but you have not mentioned any kind of acknowledgement towards the
> older kids. You mentioned that the 17 year old has trouble with the
> level of freedom that your 6 year old has. How often does that freedom
> require the 17 year old to be understanding and forgiving? How often
> does that freedom infringe on the life of the 17 year old? You don't
> have to answer those questions here but they are something to think
> about.
>
> Connie
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
[email protected]
And thank goodness for that! :)
Well, next time the big kids can say no if they want to and the world will keep spinning.
It's hard to find a perfect balance when there is such an age gap, I find, but if no one feels trapped I think that helps.
Nance
Well, next time the big kids can say no if they want to and the world will keep spinning.
It's hard to find a perfect balance when there is such an age gap, I find, but if no one feels trapped I think that helps.
Nance
--- In [email protected], Tori Otero <tori.otero@...> wrote:
>
> On reflection I think it happened too quickly and I didn't help to slow
> it down enough, to ensure that everyones needs were considered....you
> live and learn.
> Thanks T
>
> marbleface@... wrote:
> >
> > Did the older kids have the chance to say no? That they wanted to
> > finish their game and might play a group game later?
>
Debra Rossing
We just stop playing if one (or more) players are unhappy with the
situation. No recriminations, no 'I told you so' attitudes, no "never
going to play this again!", just "it looks like this isn't being fun for
you anymore, do you want to stop?" We might stop, we might have a "do
over" situation (give everyone back x amount of money for example), we
might decide to change a rule mid way of the game and move forward with
that change. With Monopoly, specifically, we often extend "credit" - I
know you owe me $75 for landing on this property, pay me when you pass
go next time...we've even kept little tally sheets to keep track of it
(when DS wanted to). And, we've played Monopoly a lot - we have at least
4 or 5 versions of the game, from a kid-targeted version (smaller board,
easier calculations, etc) to a bug version, MegaMonopoly, two Star Wars
versions, ummm I think that's it LOL
Deb R
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situation. No recriminations, no 'I told you so' attitudes, no "never
going to play this again!", just "it looks like this isn't being fun for
you anymore, do you want to stop?" We might stop, we might have a "do
over" situation (give everyone back x amount of money for example), we
might decide to change a rule mid way of the game and move forward with
that change. With Monopoly, specifically, we often extend "credit" - I
know you owe me $75 for landing on this property, pay me when you pass
go next time...we've even kept little tally sheets to keep track of it
(when DS wanted to). And, we've played Monopoly a lot - we have at least
4 or 5 versions of the game, from a kid-targeted version (smaller board,
easier calculations, etc) to a bug version, MegaMonopoly, two Star Wars
versions, ummm I think that's it LOL
Deb R
**********************************************************************
This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and
intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they
are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify
the system manager.
This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept by
MIMEsweeper for the presence of computer viruses.
www.mastercam.com
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
plaidpanties666
Tori Otero <tori.otero@...> wrote:
---Meredith
> I think that perhaps I have been too idealistic about us being able toThat can happen - I'm sometimes too idealistic about all sorts of things and end up blundering through somehow, not always in the best possible way in the moment. But each time, as you said, is another chance to learn something. That's one of the wonderful things about life (and I mean that seriously, not sarcastically) - we get to go on learning. Every little goof gets to be a chance to grow a little more.
> play Monopoly together.
---Meredith