Re: [unschoolingbasics] Two steps backward
otherstar
From: foehn_jye
Sent: Thursday, June 24, 2010 4:52 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Two steps backward
Perhaps you can change your expectations to meet reality. Instead of being frustrated, maybe you can come home and expect to give them your undivided attention. My husband comes home and picks up the baby and immediately starts asking us all about our day. I think it used to frustrate him to be more or less attacked the minute he got home. I explained to him that they do it because they love him and want to be with him. When the kids start getting really out of sorts about their dad, I will try to be more mindful and have dinner ready when he gets home so we can sit down at the table and eat as a family. My older girls don't always eat but they do like to sit and talk with us without having any interference. Sometimes, my husband will bring home dinner so we can sit down to eat/talk the minute he gets home. Maybe you can have a family dinner night where you stop and pick up dinner on your way home and then sit down and eat as a family.
Peace,
Connie
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sent: Thursday, June 24, 2010 4:52 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Two steps backward
>>>However, there are times when I feel that I am the worst mother. I get overwhelmed with the day-to-day stress and my own schedule. I am the family provider. I tend to take on more than a fair share of the household duties. I am gone most of the day for 4 days a week, and when I come home often what was Playtime for the kids becomes Demand-time for them as they vie for my attention and express their needs. Where they played for hours without conflict before I arrived, my arrival spawns conflicts and hitting/pinching/yelling sometimes within minutes. A mountain of dirty dishes and toys over the floor of every room makes my head hurt, and the basics of dinner, a dog that needs to get out, chores that have been neglected, and a husband who is now unavailable as he has waited for my arrival so that he can get to work all lead to feelings of tension and feeling a distinct lack of enough time in each day. Most days I can shrug it off, but when this is every day for weeks at a time, I reach a tipping point.<<<<There is no such thing as a "fair share" of household duties. : -) That line of thinking really gets in the way. One of the things that I have done is have a cleaning day where we all pitch in and clean together. Usually, it is on the weekends when nobody has to work. If the house gets too bad, we will stop and have a cleaning night where everybody pitches in and does something. If I sit down and start throwing toys in the toy box, even my 18 month old will start helping. I know I have a tendency to get stressed about my dirty house but then I talk to my 86 year old grandma who had 5 kids. She always puts it into perspective for me. They are only little once. One day, you will wake up and they will have their own families and that dirty house will become a fond memory. Not having toys to trip over or dirty dishes to clean just punctuates the fact that she is old and somewhat alone.
Perhaps you can change your expectations to meet reality. Instead of being frustrated, maybe you can come home and expect to give them your undivided attention. My husband comes home and picks up the baby and immediately starts asking us all about our day. I think it used to frustrate him to be more or less attacked the minute he got home. I explained to him that they do it because they love him and want to be with him. When the kids start getting really out of sorts about their dad, I will try to be more mindful and have dinner ready when he gets home so we can sit down at the table and eat as a family. My older girls don't always eat but they do like to sit and talk with us without having any interference. Sometimes, my husband will bring home dinner so we can sit down to eat/talk the minute he gets home. Maybe you can have a family dinner night where you stop and pick up dinner on your way home and then sit down and eat as a family.
>>>I've noticed that I have been responding in less-than-kind ways more frequently. I feel the agitation building, but can't seem to suppress or adequately deal with it. This spills over into my daughters speaking unkindly to me, and to eachother, which triggers even more agitation. <<<I think that we all do that at times. I am not saying that it is okay to be rude all the time but it is a lot easier to move past the bad times when we quit focusing on them so much. Yes, you have been less than kind. It doesn't mean that you are a bad mom. It means that you are human. Find healthy ways to deal with your stress so that you can get it out of your system.
>>>I've had real lose-it moments more frequently as well. No hitting, but vitriolic nastiness that comes out of my mouth and that is more often directed at my oldest--who is so much more sensitive of the two and deserves none of it no matter the situation. I know that my words hurt, and I hate hurting them with words. And yet, even if we have several days or more of easygoing, good, flowing rhythm, I'll erupt again over seemingly minor issues. The things I say are certainly not what I really feel. But in those moments that's what comes out of my mouth and I regret it even as I'm saying it.<<<It seems like you are putting way too much pressure on yourself. It seems like you have some kind of ideal that you are trying to live up to and it stresses you out to not be able to live up to it to your satisfaction. Lighten up on yourself a bit. I have lose it moments too. I had one the other day. I waited until we were all in a good place and I talked to my daughters about it. I apologized profusely to my kids and we talked about why I get like that sometimes. My 5 year old's response was, "That's okay mom. Sometimes I get grumpy and pissed off at you too."
>>>I always apologize, and I always vow to work harder and learn more and to be more diligent at observing my emotions and trying to get them under control during those times when I am particularly overwrought, but it seems all for naught lately...like I just can't quite grasp what it is I need to take control in these moments.<<<You don't need to take control. You need to let go. Control is an illusion. : -) I find that the more I try to control things, the more out of control I feel. If I quit trying to control things and instead try to live each individual moment, it makes it so much easier. For me, I have a hard time finding balance. On one hand, unschooling emphasizes being proactive and preventing things but on the other hand it also emphasizes going with the flow and living in the moment. It seems like I have to plan and not plan all at the same time.
>>>But, those bad moments seem all invasive and just so dang foul that they invade my brain and my spirit longer than they should. I analyze and try to figure out why I've said one thing or another, or why I couldn't just let go and not worry, or why I continue to speak when I should've just shut up. I read tons of things that provide good examples on how I could have handled something better, which often make me feel inadequate because I know what I could have done and didn't, and I know there are mothers out there who are doing what they should do, and not what they shouldn't and I look at myself, a 3rd degree black belt, a person known for my relaxed demeanor and laid-back attitude, and I cannot figure it out. Practitioners of my martial arts school are known for their control. And yet, I feel like I've lost all semblance of mine when it comes to certain aspects of my parenting.<<<What would happen if you stopped analyzing everything and gave yourself permission to be human? Humans make mistakes. In our house, everybody is allowed to make mistakes. It seems that we all go through bad periods from time to time. The important thing for us is that we have a house where we are supportive of each other. I find that if I focus on being perfect, then my kids feel the need to be perfect too. My kids don't feel so bad about screwing up because they have seen me screw up and recover more times than I care to admit.
Peace,
Connie
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Claire Marketos
Dear Kristi
I have spoken to so many moms caught up in the supermom trap. It does
indeed take a village to raise a child and being able to ask for help or
taking time out for yourself as a mom does not make you a bad mom. I would
advise you in the long term to discuss with your partner & boss options for
working closer to home or look for another job that allows you the
flexibility to spend more time with your children. I would also recommend
you have a helper, domestic service come in once or twice a week, depending
on affordability to help with house work. In addition, be open to allowing
family members and friends to help where they can whether its cooking a
meal, watching the kids for a couple of hours while you do something you
enjoy to refuel yourself. Make a plan with the kids that when you get home
you will spend the first hour playing with them as a group and then
individual one on one 10 minute time with each of them after that. Having a
plan may help to reduce jealousy.
Let me know if any of this information helps.
Best wishes
Claire Marketos
I have spoken to so many moms caught up in the supermom trap. It does
indeed take a village to raise a child and being able to ask for help or
taking time out for yourself as a mom does not make you a bad mom. I would
advise you in the long term to discuss with your partner & boss options for
working closer to home or look for another job that allows you the
flexibility to spend more time with your children. I would also recommend
you have a helper, domestic service come in once or twice a week, depending
on affordability to help with house work. In addition, be open to allowing
family members and friends to help where they can whether its cooking a
meal, watching the kids for a couple of hours while you do something you
enjoy to refuel yourself. Make a plan with the kids that when you get home
you will spend the first hour playing with them as a group and then
individual one on one 10 minute time with each of them after that. Having a
plan may help to reduce jealousy.
Let me know if any of this information helps.
Best wishes
Claire Marketos
plaidpanties666
Ack! my computer just ate my post. Lemme try this again:
The first thought I had was to wonder what's going on for you at work. I know from my own experience as the working parent that when work is going smoothly, its easier for me to connect at home then when work is frustrting. Jeff Sabo (unschooling dad) had a lovely blog on the subject of control where he talks about this too:
http://justabaldman.blogspot.com/2010/06/control-take-it-or-leave-it.html
When things are frustrating for me at work, I make an extra effort to find other ways to take care of myself. My work-life meets some of my needs, and when its not doing that very well, I need to do more to make sure my needs are getting met. I can't possibly be the best parent I can be with a stinking pile of unmet needs.
It also helps me, in the interim, to simply be aware of the fact that I'm not at my best. Kind of like knowing I'm hormonal, knowing I'm not 100% helps me to step back a little, to go into something I think of as transition/recovery mode - act as if I'm getting over a bad case of the flu and need to take it easy, be gentle with myself. It helps me to not have such excessive expectations of me and it helps in terms of not beating myself up over my flops.
I've had a lot of practice not-beating-myself-up because I'm not the most wonderful person in the world. I've flown off the handle and thrown temper tantrums aplenty and discovered that when I get stuck thinking about what I did wrong, stuck being mad and disappointed in me for not being the glamor-queen of a mother that I'd like to be, I'll fall right back in the same hole again and again. Staying stuck keeps me from learning. So learning to be a better parent involved me learning not to stay stuck.
Happily, I have a good sense of how I learn. Learning almost anything, for me, has what I think of as a "frustration zone" a sort of plateau where I know what competence "looks like" but can't do it yet. If I let myself get bogged down in frustration, I stay at that stage of learning longer but if I acknowledge to myself that this is part of the process, I move through the frustration zone faster.
Somewhere along the way I applied that to learning how to parent. Throwing temper tantrums at my kids was a frustration zone. I knew what better parenting looked like, but couldn't do it yet. And somehow, knowing that I was in the midst of learning something new helped me stop beating myself up. Of Course I was going to make mistakes! I was learning. So I let myself be okay with mistakes.
All right, there's a hitch, right? Because I'm not talking about a mistake in learning to sew or cook, these are mistakes that hurt people I love. So at the same time I had to own my learning process out loud to the people I love and that Sucked because I don't like people to watch me learn. I like being really good at things. I'm a bit of an overachiever. But I didn't want my process to hurt people, so I claimed it, owned the mistakes and the process, knowing that the Only way to get past (most) mistakes was to go on learning.
Two related quotes:
What might you say? Something that expresses feelings and owns those feelings as being about you, about your needs and learning process. They don't have to be elegant. I say things like "I'm soooooo Frustrated right now!" and "Aack! I'm overwhelmed" and "Waaaa! I'm losing it and need a break!" (the sound effects help, too, something about needing to take a deep breath to say Waaaaa! helps me start to think again). It helps me get through the shouting part of my emotional reaction and release some tension in ways I don't have to feel bad about - which means no "new" baggage to add to the old. Whew, I did it, I freaked out and everyone's fine.
That's another thing - seeing melting down as okay, as long as no-one gets hurt in the process. That's a success and success motivates learning.
Trying to control feelings is a bad strategy, one that sets you up for exactly what you've described - things getting worse and more out of control. Its like damming up a river - the water doesn't go away, it backs up behind the dam, and needs some means of release.
You Do need to control your behavior, but that's a different thing. Behavior is a way of communicating - and "bad" behavior generally communicates unmet needs. So what needs aren't getting met well enough in your life? How can you work on getting them met so you aren't flying off the handle so often or so hard?
Is it that things are nutty at work and you need time to decompress? Is there a way to work that into your schedule? Can you take time in the morning or evening, if not on the way home from work? Can you plan some movie-nights with the kids and just veg out now and then? Are there people who can help out, take the kids out - even just one can feel like a holiday - so that you have a little more time to regain your equilibrium? Do you and your dh need a "date" to spend some time together and/or have sex? Do you need more exercise? Vitamins? Seriously, when I'm losing it over perfectly normal things (no clean dishes, for instance) I find B vitamins will help enormously.
BTDT! Sometimes a change in perspective can make a big difference. You say you're planning some vacation time - I know when I get a chance to be home more its interesting to really notice the rhythm of my family's day. It helps me understand Why the house is trashed when I get home and put that in perspective. With that perspective, I can see a dearth of clean dishes as a sign that everyone ate well today - hooray! A jumble of toys and paper scraps all through the house means a day of busy play and exploration - yippee! A wiped-out partner is one who spent the day engaged with the kids - yaaayyy! That's why I go to work after all - so that my loved ones can live life to the fullest while I'm gone. The detritus of a well lived life can be impressive!
On weekends I try to tackle what I can to set George and the kids up for an easier time during the week. I do some extra cooking and cleaning, knowing that when I can do that George has more energy to get things done around the house and its not such a disaster area when I get home. Its the sort of thing that goes in cycles, for sure, so during the more-chaotic cycles I remind myself to go into recovery/transition mode again, take it easy, and I'll get to it when things smooth out again.
My life is a little grungier and less elegant than I envisioned it to be years ago. It helps me to see that as something I'm choosing. Its not that I don't have any "control" over the situation, its that I know I can't control other people, and choose to control the things that give me the most return.
---Meredith (Mo 8, Ray 16)
The first thought I had was to wonder what's going on for you at work. I know from my own experience as the working parent that when work is going smoothly, its easier for me to connect at home then when work is frustrting. Jeff Sabo (unschooling dad) had a lovely blog on the subject of control where he talks about this too:
http://justabaldman.blogspot.com/2010/06/control-take-it-or-leave-it.html
When things are frustrating for me at work, I make an extra effort to find other ways to take care of myself. My work-life meets some of my needs, and when its not doing that very well, I need to do more to make sure my needs are getting met. I can't possibly be the best parent I can be with a stinking pile of unmet needs.
It also helps me, in the interim, to simply be aware of the fact that I'm not at my best. Kind of like knowing I'm hormonal, knowing I'm not 100% helps me to step back a little, to go into something I think of as transition/recovery mode - act as if I'm getting over a bad case of the flu and need to take it easy, be gentle with myself. It helps me to not have such excessive expectations of me and it helps in terms of not beating myself up over my flops.
> But, those bad moments seem all invasive and just so dang foul that they invade my brain and my spirit longer than they should.******************
I've had a lot of practice not-beating-myself-up because I'm not the most wonderful person in the world. I've flown off the handle and thrown temper tantrums aplenty and discovered that when I get stuck thinking about what I did wrong, stuck being mad and disappointed in me for not being the glamor-queen of a mother that I'd like to be, I'll fall right back in the same hole again and again. Staying stuck keeps me from learning. So learning to be a better parent involved me learning not to stay stuck.
Happily, I have a good sense of how I learn. Learning almost anything, for me, has what I think of as a "frustration zone" a sort of plateau where I know what competence "looks like" but can't do it yet. If I let myself get bogged down in frustration, I stay at that stage of learning longer but if I acknowledge to myself that this is part of the process, I move through the frustration zone faster.
Somewhere along the way I applied that to learning how to parent. Throwing temper tantrums at my kids was a frustration zone. I knew what better parenting looked like, but couldn't do it yet. And somehow, knowing that I was in the midst of learning something new helped me stop beating myself up. Of Course I was going to make mistakes! I was learning. So I let myself be okay with mistakes.
All right, there's a hitch, right? Because I'm not talking about a mistake in learning to sew or cook, these are mistakes that hurt people I love. So at the same time I had to own my learning process out loud to the people I love and that Sucked because I don't like people to watch me learn. I like being really good at things. I'm a bit of an overachiever. But I didn't want my process to hurt people, so I claimed it, owned the mistakes and the process, knowing that the Only way to get past (most) mistakes was to go on learning.
Two related quotes:
>>I regret it even as I'm saying it.and
>>why I continue to speak when I should've just shut up.My own experience is that in those kinds of moments "just shutting up" isn't possible. I need Something Else to Say. Do you see what I mean? Its as though the emotions give some kind of momentum to the words - and ideally saying some big strong words can be a great strategy for moving through big emotions. The trouble is the words you're using create more big strong emotions and you're stuck in a loop. So change the words. Find other big strong things to say, make a list, pick a few lines and memorize them because in the moment you're too busy feeling to think very well. Then when you notice you're saying the wrong things, you have another option. Don't worry about saying those other things every time, just Next Time. Start with a single step.
What might you say? Something that expresses feelings and owns those feelings as being about you, about your needs and learning process. They don't have to be elegant. I say things like "I'm soooooo Frustrated right now!" and "Aack! I'm overwhelmed" and "Waaaa! I'm losing it and need a break!" (the sound effects help, too, something about needing to take a deep breath to say Waaaaa! helps me start to think again). It helps me get through the shouting part of my emotional reaction and release some tension in ways I don't have to feel bad about - which means no "new" baggage to add to the old. Whew, I did it, I freaked out and everyone's fine.
That's another thing - seeing melting down as okay, as long as no-one gets hurt in the process. That's a success and success motivates learning.
> I always apologize, and I always vow to work harder and learn more and to be more diligent at observing my emotions and trying to get them under control during those times when I am particularly overwrought********************
Trying to control feelings is a bad strategy, one that sets you up for exactly what you've described - things getting worse and more out of control. Its like damming up a river - the water doesn't go away, it backs up behind the dam, and needs some means of release.
You Do need to control your behavior, but that's a different thing. Behavior is a way of communicating - and "bad" behavior generally communicates unmet needs. So what needs aren't getting met well enough in your life? How can you work on getting them met so you aren't flying off the handle so often or so hard?
Is it that things are nutty at work and you need time to decompress? Is there a way to work that into your schedule? Can you take time in the morning or evening, if not on the way home from work? Can you plan some movie-nights with the kids and just veg out now and then? Are there people who can help out, take the kids out - even just one can feel like a holiday - so that you have a little more time to regain your equilibrium? Do you and your dh need a "date" to spend some time together and/or have sex? Do you need more exercise? Vitamins? Seriously, when I'm losing it over perfectly normal things (no clean dishes, for instance) I find B vitamins will help enormously.
>>A mountain of dirty dishes and toys over the floor of every room makes my head hurt, and the basics of dinner, a dog that needs to get out, chores that have been neglected, and a husband who is now unavailable*********************
BTDT! Sometimes a change in perspective can make a big difference. You say you're planning some vacation time - I know when I get a chance to be home more its interesting to really notice the rhythm of my family's day. It helps me understand Why the house is trashed when I get home and put that in perspective. With that perspective, I can see a dearth of clean dishes as a sign that everyone ate well today - hooray! A jumble of toys and paper scraps all through the house means a day of busy play and exploration - yippee! A wiped-out partner is one who spent the day engaged with the kids - yaaayyy! That's why I go to work after all - so that my loved ones can live life to the fullest while I'm gone. The detritus of a well lived life can be impressive!
On weekends I try to tackle what I can to set George and the kids up for an easier time during the week. I do some extra cooking and cleaning, knowing that when I can do that George has more energy to get things done around the house and its not such a disaster area when I get home. Its the sort of thing that goes in cycles, for sure, so during the more-chaotic cycles I remind myself to go into recovery/transition mode again, take it easy, and I'll get to it when things smooth out again.
>> I tend to take on more than a fair share of the household duties.Another change in perspective: they aren't duties, they are things you choose to do. That can be a hard one to "get" because we're so used to the idea that certain things Have To be done. Living with my male partner at home during the day for more than two years, now, I've discovered the state of my house is closer to that of a 20-something guy with his first apartment. There are socks on the backs of the furniture, and if I don't sweep the floors, they don't get swept, much less washed. I could change that, but it would be a pretty massive effort for me every week. I choose to put my energy elsewhere, scoop arm-loads of toys and laundry off the couch if I want to sit down, and love my guy for who he is, and who he is doesn't include much housekeeping.
My life is a little grungier and less elegant than I envisioned it to be years ago. It helps me to see that as something I'm choosing. Its not that I don't have any "control" over the situation, its that I know I can't control other people, and choose to control the things that give me the most return.
---Meredith (Mo 8, Ray 16)
plaidpanties666
<claire@...> wrote:
Remembering that can help mom get over resenting the suddent mob of attention - its really a massive outpouring of love and an expression of each family member's wish that mom could be home more often. Kind of sweet in that sense, even if its hard to deal with that when you're tired.
I can tell something about George's day right off the bat depending on if he has a million things to tell me or is happy to listen to me rattle on about my day at work. If George has had a rough day, he needs to talk more, and it helps if I can give him a little attention, let him know he's important to me and I value what he does at home. That may not apply so much to the OP's husband, since I got the impression he's trying to get off to work as she's coming in, but it may apply to the kids: the more they're clamoring, the more they need the attention.
---Meredith (Mo 8, Ray 16)
> Make a plan with the kids that when you get home...If by make a plan you mean talk with the kids, separately or together, and work out some options for when mom first gets home, yes, that's a good idea. Making a plan and telling it to the kids isn't so helpful, unless you already know what they need, and in that case there's nothing to tell. Act on meeting those needs.
> Having aI didn't see anything to suggest jealousy. Its pretty normal for kids, and adult partners, too, to clamor for attention when the working parent gets home, and sometimes that clamoring can get a little competitive. The working parent is a limited commodity, after all, a special luxury item that everyone in the family wants.
> plan may help to reduce jealousy.
Remembering that can help mom get over resenting the suddent mob of attention - its really a massive outpouring of love and an expression of each family member's wish that mom could be home more often. Kind of sweet in that sense, even if its hard to deal with that when you're tired.
I can tell something about George's day right off the bat depending on if he has a million things to tell me or is happy to listen to me rattle on about my day at work. If George has had a rough day, he needs to talk more, and it helps if I can give him a little attention, let him know he's important to me and I value what he does at home. That may not apply so much to the OP's husband, since I got the impression he's trying to get off to work as she's coming in, but it may apply to the kids: the more they're clamoring, the more they need the attention.
>It doesWhile it certainly is important for moms to look for help in terms of getting their needs met, the "village" mentality isn't necessarily compatible with unschooling, nor is the idea that children are to be raised. Children are individual people, and "villages" whether they be extended families, churches, small towns, or intentional communities aren't necessarily good environments for individual children. That's going to be highly situational.
> indeed take a "village to raise a child" and being able to ask for help or
> taking time out for yourself as a mom does not make you a bad mom.
---Meredith (Mo 8, Ray 16)
otherstar
From: plaidpanties666
Sent: Friday, June 25, 2010 6:10 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: Two steps backward
<claire@...> wrote:
********************************
One of the things that has worked for us is for the kids to make a path through the living room so that when dad gets home, he can go straight to the bedroom and get out of his work clothes. The baby and I go hang out with him and touch base while he is changing his clothes. After that, the kids get him. : -) Something else that has helped is for my husband and I to find times during the day to talk on the phone or send each other e-mails. That let's my husband know what is going on with the kids so that when he comes home he knows what to expect. If we have had a particularly rough day, then he can be prepared to give the kids extra attention. If he has had a particularly rough day, the kids and I can prepare to give him extra attention. Finding ways to connect through out the day has helped us both keep down the stress levels.
After my husband realized that the kids really just wanted his attention, it made things different for him. I think things really clicked for my husband when one of our daughters told him, "Dad, I wish you could stay home all the time too."
Connie
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sent: Friday, June 25, 2010 6:10 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: Two steps backward
<claire@...> wrote:
> Make a plan with the kids that when you get home...If by make a plan you mean talk with the kids, separately or together, and work out some options for when mom first gets home, yes, that's a good idea. Making a plan and telling it to the kids isn't so helpful, unless you already know what they need, and in that case there's nothing to tell. Act on meeting those needs.
********************************
One of the things that has worked for us is for the kids to make a path through the living room so that when dad gets home, he can go straight to the bedroom and get out of his work clothes. The baby and I go hang out with him and touch base while he is changing his clothes. After that, the kids get him. : -) Something else that has helped is for my husband and I to find times during the day to talk on the phone or send each other e-mails. That let's my husband know what is going on with the kids so that when he comes home he knows what to expect. If we have had a particularly rough day, then he can be prepared to give the kids extra attention. If he has had a particularly rough day, the kids and I can prepare to give him extra attention. Finding ways to connect through out the day has helped us both keep down the stress levels.
>>>>>Remembering that can help mom get over resenting the suddent mob of attention - its really a massive outpouring of love and an expression of each family member's wish that mom could be home more often. Kind of sweet in that sense, even if its hard to deal with that when you're tired. <<<<********************************
After my husband realized that the kids really just wanted his attention, it made things different for him. I think things really clicked for my husband when one of our daughters told him, "Dad, I wish you could stay home all the time too."
Connie
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
Why is housework waiting for you when you get home? You need to spend time with the kids and relax, too. If DH is there all day he -- and the kids when they see what living together and helping each other as needed looks like -- he can do what can be done during the day and leave nothing for you and you can deal with what comes up while you are home and leave no outstanding housework for him.
Or leave it all for him for the next day and see how that sits with him. :)
Nance
Or leave it all for him for the next day and see how that sits with him. :)
Nance
--- In [email protected], "foehn_jye" <foehn_jye@...> wrote:
>
> This is not an Unschooling issue per say, but it is affecting my ability to effectively Unschool. This is a parenting issue. I debated for quite some time which board to submit this too, but chose this one as a beginning Unschooler.
>
> My daughters are 8 and 4.5.
>
> I practiced attachment parenting, including co-sleeping, and responding to my children's cues while they were infants and toddlers. I have been working towards mindful, peaceful parenting for over 6 years. I've been learning about Unschooling for the past three years. This was because my oldest started Kindergarten at 5 and then refused to go. Dragging her to school wasn't an option. The refusal to go did not end, so we pulled her out with the intention of homeschooling. What we did that year was living as if school did not exist, and it felt so right. Later that year I discovered Unschooling, and found a name for what it was we were doing.
>
> When she was 6, she decided she wanted to try Kindergarten again, and she did fine, but it still felt not quite right. Then, at age 7, we pulled her out of school in the first week of first grade after it became clear that school expectations and experiences were not going to mesh with her needs and our vision for learning. She didn't want to go to school, period, and was happy to be pulled out.
>
> For me, learning to become a peaceful, mindful parent is hard yet meaningful work. I am thankful for the many successes I've had in changing my parenting paradigm from one of not-knowing-what-I-am-doing and thus relying on the way in which I was parented, to being a more mindful parent that is comfortable interacting with my kids without punitive discipline, arbitrary rules, set bedtimes or mealtimes, and in general harmony and creativity.
>
> However, there are times when I feel that I am the worst mother. I get overwhelmed with the day-to-day stress and my own schedule. I am the family provider. I tend to take on more than a fair share of the household duties. I am gone most of the day for 4 days a week, and when I come home often what was Playtime for the kids becomes Demand-time for them as they vie for my attention and express their needs. Where they played for hours without conflict before I arrived, my arrival spawns conflicts and hitting/pinching/yelling sometimes within minutes. A mountain of dirty dishes and toys over the floor of every room makes my head hurt, and the basics of dinner, a dog that needs to get out, chores that have been neglected, and a husband who is now unavailable as he has waited for my arrival so that he can get to work all lead to feelings of tension and feeling a distinct lack of enough time in each day. Most days I can shrug it off, but when this is every day for weeks at a time, I reach a tipping point.
>
> I've noticed that I have been responding in less-than-kind ways more frequently. I feel the agitation building, but can't seem to suppress or adequately deal with it. This spills over into my daughters speaking unkindly to me, and to eachother, which triggers even more agitation.
>
> I've had real lose-it moments more frequently as well. No hitting, but vitriolic nastiness that comes out of my mouth and that is more often directed at my oldest-who is so much more sensitive of the two and deserves none of it no matter the situation. I know that my words hurt, and I hate hurting them with words. And yet, even if we have several days or more of easygoing, good, flowing rhythm, I'll erupt again over seemingly minor issues. The things I say are certainly not what I really feel. But in those moments that's what comes out of my mouth and I regret it even as I'm saying it.
>
> I even dream about this, so I am realizing just how pervasive all this angst and irritation is becoming in my own psyche, and I suspect in those of my children.
>
> I always apologize, and I always vow to work harder and learn more and to be more diligent at observing my emotions and trying to get them under control during those times when I am particularly overwrought, but it seems all for naught lately...like I just can't quite grasp what it is I need to take control in these moments.
>
> I provide each of my girls tender, devoted affection time, and I am very interested in their interests nearly all the time. We spend lots of our time swimming, playing, going to the park, watching movies/tv, playing on the computer, riding bikes, going to the library, playing with friends, walking the puppy, drawing, making videos, taking pictures, shopping, and a variety of other things. We really do have way more good moments than bad.
>
> But, those bad moments seem all invasive and just so dang foul that they invade my brain and my spirit longer than they should. I analyze and try to figure out why I've said one thing or another, or why I couldn't just let go and not worry, or why I continue to speak when I should've just shut up. I read tons of things that provide good examples on how I could have handled something better, which often make me feel inadequate because I know what I could have done and didn't, and I know there are mothers out there who are doing what they should do, and not what they shouldn't and I look at myself, a 3rd degree black belt, a person known for my relaxed demeanor and laid-back attitude, and I cannot figure it out. Practitioners of my martial arts school are known for their control. And yet, I feel like I've lost all semblance of mine when it comes to certain aspects of my parenting.
>
> These issues make me feel like all I've done is a façade...some sort of lie. Like I know so well how things should go, but I lose it, and then go back to knowing how it should have gone, but I didn't follow through.
>
> I know some of this is stress, some is an imbalance in household chores and finances, sometimes it's hormonal, and sometimes I'm just plain tired. I'm feeling an urgent need to take control and to end this cycle that I feel I've begun, and I'm looking for some ideas from other experienced parents. Meanwhile, I'm planning some vacations, and taking some additional days off work so that I can simply focus on my kids and spend more time with them.
>
> Thank you in advance for reading.
>
> Kristi B.
>
Elli
Kristi -
You've also made more than one step forward, remember that when you think about the two steps backward.
It helped me to get some other help. I hate housework and am not consistent in getting it done. I am the primary bread winner in my house. I've got several strategies for involving others in the effort to create a peaceful and serene home...
1. We now have nannies helping 6 hours a day. They feed the kids and do light housework. I leave a list of 3 or 4 chores I want them to do each day. They do it. Fold clothes, put away clean clothes, vacuum the sofa, brush the cat, clean the litter box. I've got one nanny for Monday Tuesday Wednesday and the other for Thursday Friday. Sometimes I work from home, and they do the chores while I am there.
2. When the kids want extra money, I offer to pay them to do chores.
My 12-year-old daughter wanted unlimited texting for her phone. We decided to barter. She would move the laundry along so the nannies could fold it when they were here. We told her this would be a job. If she does a good job, she gets the texting. If she doesn't do it, we'd talk to her and give her a chance to improve. If she didn't get back on track, we'd stop paying her (no more texting). It has been 2 weeks and she has done a terrific job moving the laundry along. And she is learning what it feels like to work for someone else to make some money.
My 9-year-old son wanted $20 for a new video game. I told him that I pay the nannies $10 per hour to do housework, and I'd be willing to pay him the same. He told me he'd rather be paid by the job. He and I did some negotiation and decided to creat a menu of jobs and fair prices. He picked several from the list and worked for a very inspired 2 hours (with my guidance.) He earned exactly what he needed. Feeling so terrific about it, he asked for more jobs so he could buy something for his sister. So I gave him a few more chores! At the end of the night he said, "I want to do some chores for free for you, mom. This is hard work and now I understand why you get tired."
We don't make them do chores. I do ask for help when I want help. I have taught myself to graciously accept a "no" from them when I ask for help. I have stopped trying to use guilt or shame to make them do chores.
3. We have a dry erase board in the kitchen where we write our to-do list. My husband and I touch base each Saturday regarding the list. I let him know if there is something that I really want taken care of during the weekend. He lets me know when he is going to get to it. We both pick away at the list and enjoy the thrill of wiping off the done chores. By Sunday mid-day, the board is usually clean.
It took a lot of healing in our marriage to get to this point. I used to think that I couldn't count on my hubby, that I had to make most of the money and do all of the chores and kid care. I don't have these thoughts any more after a serious and very mutual rebuilding effort for our marriage.
4. I have also let go of the idea of getting it all done right away. I stack the dishes and wipe the counter if I am too tired to load the dishwasher at night. I'll take care of it in the morning or leave it for the nannies. (The nannies really help...it takes a village to raise a child!!)
5. Decluttering!! That has also helped us a lot. Funny thing is, once my husband and I started rebuilding our marriage this fall, we also started decluttering. First we tackled the attic. It looks great now. Then we tackled the house. We most recently decluttered the garage. It was a physical exercise that parallels the decluttering we have done in our relationship - getting rid of habits and behaviors that no longer serve us. Keeping things and behaviors that add beauty and serenity to our home and marriage and family. Selectively adding new things and new behaviors that contribute to the health and happiness of our family.
So those are all of my tricks.
You will find your own.
Keep at it.
I remember feeling just like you feel now and thinking thoughts that you are thinking right now. I have come through and so will you!!!!
Love,
Elli
ps. I remember reading other peoples lists of solutions to questions I would post on Unschoolingbasics. I remember thinking that their ideas were all good and well, but I couldn't imagine how it would fit into my family.
Until, that is, my hubby and I rededicated ourselves to our marriage. Last summer I told him I wanted a divorce. He asked for a second change. I agreed only if he promised to go with me to Retrouvaille. He agreed. We went. Our marriage has never been the same since attending. Life feels delicious and good and fun and fabulous. I look at my hubby and see a true partner. I now feel confident about our ability to create a serene and loving home together.
You've also made more than one step forward, remember that when you think about the two steps backward.
It helped me to get some other help. I hate housework and am not consistent in getting it done. I am the primary bread winner in my house. I've got several strategies for involving others in the effort to create a peaceful and serene home...
1. We now have nannies helping 6 hours a day. They feed the kids and do light housework. I leave a list of 3 or 4 chores I want them to do each day. They do it. Fold clothes, put away clean clothes, vacuum the sofa, brush the cat, clean the litter box. I've got one nanny for Monday Tuesday Wednesday and the other for Thursday Friday. Sometimes I work from home, and they do the chores while I am there.
2. When the kids want extra money, I offer to pay them to do chores.
My 12-year-old daughter wanted unlimited texting for her phone. We decided to barter. She would move the laundry along so the nannies could fold it when they were here. We told her this would be a job. If she does a good job, she gets the texting. If she doesn't do it, we'd talk to her and give her a chance to improve. If she didn't get back on track, we'd stop paying her (no more texting). It has been 2 weeks and she has done a terrific job moving the laundry along. And she is learning what it feels like to work for someone else to make some money.
My 9-year-old son wanted $20 for a new video game. I told him that I pay the nannies $10 per hour to do housework, and I'd be willing to pay him the same. He told me he'd rather be paid by the job. He and I did some negotiation and decided to creat a menu of jobs and fair prices. He picked several from the list and worked for a very inspired 2 hours (with my guidance.) He earned exactly what he needed. Feeling so terrific about it, he asked for more jobs so he could buy something for his sister. So I gave him a few more chores! At the end of the night he said, "I want to do some chores for free for you, mom. This is hard work and now I understand why you get tired."
We don't make them do chores. I do ask for help when I want help. I have taught myself to graciously accept a "no" from them when I ask for help. I have stopped trying to use guilt or shame to make them do chores.
3. We have a dry erase board in the kitchen where we write our to-do list. My husband and I touch base each Saturday regarding the list. I let him know if there is something that I really want taken care of during the weekend. He lets me know when he is going to get to it. We both pick away at the list and enjoy the thrill of wiping off the done chores. By Sunday mid-day, the board is usually clean.
It took a lot of healing in our marriage to get to this point. I used to think that I couldn't count on my hubby, that I had to make most of the money and do all of the chores and kid care. I don't have these thoughts any more after a serious and very mutual rebuilding effort for our marriage.
4. I have also let go of the idea of getting it all done right away. I stack the dishes and wipe the counter if I am too tired to load the dishwasher at night. I'll take care of it in the morning or leave it for the nannies. (The nannies really help...it takes a village to raise a child!!)
5. Decluttering!! That has also helped us a lot. Funny thing is, once my husband and I started rebuilding our marriage this fall, we also started decluttering. First we tackled the attic. It looks great now. Then we tackled the house. We most recently decluttered the garage. It was a physical exercise that parallels the decluttering we have done in our relationship - getting rid of habits and behaviors that no longer serve us. Keeping things and behaviors that add beauty and serenity to our home and marriage and family. Selectively adding new things and new behaviors that contribute to the health and happiness of our family.
So those are all of my tricks.
You will find your own.
Keep at it.
I remember feeling just like you feel now and thinking thoughts that you are thinking right now. I have come through and so will you!!!!
Love,
Elli
ps. I remember reading other peoples lists of solutions to questions I would post on Unschoolingbasics. I remember thinking that their ideas were all good and well, but I couldn't imagine how it would fit into my family.
Until, that is, my hubby and I rededicated ourselves to our marriage. Last summer I told him I wanted a divorce. He asked for a second change. I agreed only if he promised to go with me to Retrouvaille. He agreed. We went. Our marriage has never been the same since attending. Life feels delicious and good and fun and fabulous. I look at my hubby and see a true partner. I now feel confident about our ability to create a serene and loving home together.
otherstar
From: marbleface@...
Sent: Saturday, June 26, 2010 6:28 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: Two steps backward
Who cares why it is there? My husband comes home to a toy filled house and a sink full of dirty dishes all the time. I don't think it is helpful to expect the stay at home parent to clean during the day. If that is his thing, then he can do it. I am not big on house cleaning. I would rather spend my time playing with the kids. I also work from home so fitting house cleaning into our daily schedule doesn't always work. The compromise that we have come up with is creating a path through the living room. I don't know how leaving it all for him is going to help the situation if he isn't bothered by the mess. That sounds a little bit like passive aggressive manipulation.
Open and honest communication is always the best approach. If you don't think that you can be open and honest with your spouse or your kids, then there is a lot more going on than just being stressed over a dirty house.
Connie
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sent: Saturday, June 26, 2010 6:28 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: Two steps backward
>>>>>>Why is housework waiting for you when you get home? You need to spend time with the kids and relax, too. If DH is there all day he -- and the kids when they see what living together and helping each other as needed looks like -- he can do what can be done during the day and leave nothing for you and you can deal with what comes up while you are home and leave no outstanding housework for him.Or leave it all for him for the next day and see how that sits with him. :) <<<<<<
Who cares why it is there? My husband comes home to a toy filled house and a sink full of dirty dishes all the time. I don't think it is helpful to expect the stay at home parent to clean during the day. If that is his thing, then he can do it. I am not big on house cleaning. I would rather spend my time playing with the kids. I also work from home so fitting house cleaning into our daily schedule doesn't always work. The compromise that we have come up with is creating a path through the living room. I don't know how leaving it all for him is going to help the situation if he isn't bothered by the mess. That sounds a little bit like passive aggressive manipulation.
Open and honest communication is always the best approach. If you don't think that you can be open and honest with your spouse or your kids, then there is a lot more going on than just being stressed over a dirty house.
Connie
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
plaidpanties666
"marbleface@..." <marbleface@...> wrote:
Its such a curious topic, because if the shoe were on the other foot, and the at-home parent was the one writing in, saying "my partner is grumpy about the mess" I'd suggest working on the mess and making it more tolerable for the partner - and likely that would be mom. And yet here with mom working its still up to mom? Its up to whoever is willing to change, really. Mom's the one who wrote in.
If dad wants to write in, or I find out he's reading these messages, then yeah, clean something, guy! George makes a point to have the dishes washed (or be in the process of washing them) when I walk in the door and that helps a lot. I make a point to squeeze his butt and kiss the back of his neck if he's standing at the sink to let him know what I think of a man who does dishes, and that helps him a lot. He likes to feel sexy and valued, after all. Maybe mom could pick up a copy of "Porn for Women" - a sort of gag book with pictures of fully dressed men doing housework, but there's an element of truth in it.
If mom can change the dynamic for the better, that's a good thing. Telling the husband he needs to clean more might not change the dynamic for the better, it might come across as nagging. Think about it the other way around - how does it feel when dad's the one saying "my wife should clean more, after all, they're unschooling, its not like she has anything to do." Being an engaged parent is work. Living as a parent who actively values your own passions and needs as much as your kids' is also work! Its important to let dad know his work is appreciated, even without the "extras" of being able to see the counters and floor.
It would be better to leave it because its too much to handle one more thing today, then make it some kind of spite-fest. Maybe that's not what you meant, Nance, but it kind of comes across that way :( Its good to recognize that the house isn't going to fall down if the mess sits and extra day, for sure! If there's one spot that really bugs you, clean that one spot. The side of the island where we sit to eat is my "twitch" spot. If I can't put my tired elbows down without hitting something sticky, I get cranky, so I make sure I clean my spot before I sit down, if George hasn't cleaned that part of the counter. He often doesn't, or does and then... well, with kids home all day things don't stay clean long. When I'm too tired to clean, place mats are my best friends.
---Meredith
>If DH is there all day he -- and the kids when they see what living together and helping each other as needed looks like -- he can do what can be done during the day***************
Its such a curious topic, because if the shoe were on the other foot, and the at-home parent was the one writing in, saying "my partner is grumpy about the mess" I'd suggest working on the mess and making it more tolerable for the partner - and likely that would be mom. And yet here with mom working its still up to mom? Its up to whoever is willing to change, really. Mom's the one who wrote in.
If dad wants to write in, or I find out he's reading these messages, then yeah, clean something, guy! George makes a point to have the dishes washed (or be in the process of washing them) when I walk in the door and that helps a lot. I make a point to squeeze his butt and kiss the back of his neck if he's standing at the sink to let him know what I think of a man who does dishes, and that helps him a lot. He likes to feel sexy and valued, after all. Maybe mom could pick up a copy of "Porn for Women" - a sort of gag book with pictures of fully dressed men doing housework, but there's an element of truth in it.
If mom can change the dynamic for the better, that's a good thing. Telling the husband he needs to clean more might not change the dynamic for the better, it might come across as nagging. Think about it the other way around - how does it feel when dad's the one saying "my wife should clean more, after all, they're unschooling, its not like she has anything to do." Being an engaged parent is work. Living as a parent who actively values your own passions and needs as much as your kids' is also work! Its important to let dad know his work is appreciated, even without the "extras" of being able to see the counters and floor.
> Or leave it all for him for the next day and see how that sits with him.************
It would be better to leave it because its too much to handle one more thing today, then make it some kind of spite-fest. Maybe that's not what you meant, Nance, but it kind of comes across that way :( Its good to recognize that the house isn't going to fall down if the mess sits and extra day, for sure! If there's one spot that really bugs you, clean that one spot. The side of the island where we sit to eat is my "twitch" spot. If I can't put my tired elbows down without hitting something sticky, I get cranky, so I make sure I clean my spot before I sit down, if George hasn't cleaned that part of the counter. He often doesn't, or does and then... well, with kids home all day things don't stay clean long. When I'm too tired to clean, place mats are my best friends.
---Meredith
plaidpanties666
Elli brought up a good point about the importance of marriage/adult partnerships. Certainly there are ways to unschool as a single parent, but divorce also wreaks havoc on a family, and can put unschooling out of reach. Its possible - and helpful, too, to extend the same kinds of principles toward adult relationships as toward kids, and really, unschooling works best when you extend those principles into all your relationships (including your "relationship" with your self!):
http://sandradodd.com/unexpected
http://sandradodd.com/spouses
http://sandradodd.com/divorce
There are a couple lists devoted to extending the principles of unschooling into adult relationships:
http://uk.groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingpartnerships/
and I've lost my link for the other, which is more "alternative" and less unschooling-specific but I think its here:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Creative-Partnerships/
http://sandradodd.com/unexpected
http://sandradodd.com/spouses
http://sandradodd.com/divorce
There are a couple lists devoted to extending the principles of unschooling into adult relationships:
http://uk.groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingpartnerships/
and I've lost my link for the other, which is more "alternative" and less unschooling-specific but I think its here:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Creative-Partnerships/
theburkemommy
Connie,
Thank you so much for your words of wisdom. Reading your post helped me tremendously...seriously! So wise and so helpful.
Erin
Thank you so much for your words of wisdom. Reading your post helped me tremendously...seriously! So wise and so helpful.
Erin
Sylvia Woodman
Is there also a group called Peaceful Partnerships out there as well? That
might be the one that you are thinking about.
Warmly,
Sylvia
On Sat, Jun 26, 2010 at 3:51 PM, plaidpanties666
<plaidpanties666@...>wrote:
might be the one that you are thinking about.
Warmly,
Sylvia
On Sat, Jun 26, 2010 at 3:51 PM, plaidpanties666
<plaidpanties666@...>wrote:
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
> Elli brought up a good point about the importance of marriage/adult
> partnerships. Certainly there are ways to unschool as a single parent, but
> divorce also wreaks havoc on a family, and can put unschooling out of reach.
> Its possible - and helpful, too, to extend the same kinds of principles
> toward adult relationships as toward kids, and really, unschooling works
> best when you extend those principles into all your relationships (including
> your "relationship" with your self!):
>
> http://sandradodd.com/unexpected
> http://sandradodd.com/spouses
> http://sandradodd.com/divorce
>
> There are a couple lists devoted to extending the principles of unschooling
> into adult relationships:
>
> http://uk.groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingpartnerships/
>
> and I've lost my link for the other, which is more "alternative" and less
> unschooling-specific but I think its here:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Creative-Partnerships/
>
>
>
[email protected]
Well, "open and honest" around here is that I can't do it all and can't hire nannies and none of us want to live in filth and too much mess. So if my DH sees a pile of laundry, if he's not too tired, he folds it. If he sees a sink full of dishes, if he's not too tired, he loads the dishwasher.
There are only a certain number of hours in the day and certain things that need doing to keep functioning. I do the bulk of daily household chores and he does the bulk of household repairs and improvements. But he doesn't wait for me to do something if it obviously needs doing and I have been known to pick up a hammer if needed.
We are not Home & Garden types. We're just working together to get through the day.
My point was that it seemed like the original poster's DH was waiting for Mom to get home to do any of the necessary chores. If that's the case, my suggestion would be that she be "open and honest" with him and show him how to load a dishwasher and run a vacuum. If that's not the case, never mind.
Nance
There are only a certain number of hours in the day and certain things that need doing to keep functioning. I do the bulk of daily household chores and he does the bulk of household repairs and improvements. But he doesn't wait for me to do something if it obviously needs doing and I have been known to pick up a hammer if needed.
We are not Home & Garden types. We're just working together to get through the day.
My point was that it seemed like the original poster's DH was waiting for Mom to get home to do any of the necessary chores. If that's the case, my suggestion would be that she be "open and honest" with him and show him how to load a dishwasher and run a vacuum. If that's not the case, never mind.
Nance
--- In [email protected], "otherstar" <otherstar@...> wrote:
>
> From: marbleface@...
> Sent: Saturday, June 26, 2010 6:28 AM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: Two steps backward
>
> >>>>>>Why is housework waiting for you when you get home? You need to spend time with the kids and relax, too. If DH is there all day he -- and the kids when they see what living together and helping each other as needed looks like -- he can do what can be done during the day and leave nothing for you and you can deal with what comes up while you are home and leave no outstanding housework for him.
>
> Or leave it all for him for the next day and see how that sits with him. :) <<<<<<
>
>
> Who cares why it is there? My husband comes home to a toy filled house and a sink full of dirty dishes all the time. I don't think it is helpful to expect the stay at home parent to clean during the day. If that is his thing, then he can do it. I am not big on house cleaning. I would rather spend my time playing with the kids. I also work from home so fitting house cleaning into our daily schedule doesn't always work. The compromise that we have come up with is creating a path through the living room. I don't know how leaving it all for him is going to help the situation if he isn't bothered by the mess. That sounds a little bit like passive aggressive manipulation.
>
> Open and honest communication is always the best approach. If you don't think that you can be open and honest with your spouse or your kids, then there is a lot more going on than just being stressed over a dirty house.
>
> Connie
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
[email protected]
Dang! We're all way too tired.
Spitefest was not what I was aiming for. Object lesson might be closer. "Here's what it looks like/feels like/lives like when I don't do two jobs."
Nance
Spitefest was not what I was aiming for. Object lesson might be closer. "Here's what it looks like/feels like/lives like when I don't do two jobs."
Nance
--- In [email protected], "plaidpanties666" <plaidpanties666@...> wrote:
>
> "marbleface@" <marbleface@> wrote:
> >If DH is there all day he -- and the kids when they see what living together and helping each other as needed looks like -- he can do what can be done during the day
> ***************
>
> Its such a curious topic, because if the shoe were on the other foot, and the at-home parent was the one writing in, saying "my partner is grumpy about the mess" I'd suggest working on the mess and making it more tolerable for the partner - and likely that would be mom. And yet here with mom working its still up to mom? Its up to whoever is willing to change, really. Mom's the one who wrote in.
>
> If dad wants to write in, or I find out he's reading these messages, then yeah, clean something, guy! George makes a point to have the dishes washed (or be in the process of washing them) when I walk in the door and that helps a lot. I make a point to squeeze his butt and kiss the back of his neck if he's standing at the sink to let him know what I think of a man who does dishes, and that helps him a lot. He likes to feel sexy and valued, after all. Maybe mom could pick up a copy of "Porn for Women" - a sort of gag book with pictures of fully dressed men doing housework, but there's an element of truth in it.
>
> If mom can change the dynamic for the better, that's a good thing. Telling the husband he needs to clean more might not change the dynamic for the better, it might come across as nagging. Think about it the other way around - how does it feel when dad's the one saying "my wife should clean more, after all, they're unschooling, its not like she has anything to do." Being an engaged parent is work. Living as a parent who actively values your own passions and needs as much as your kids' is also work! Its important to let dad know his work is appreciated, even without the "extras" of being able to see the counters and floor.
>
> > Or leave it all for him for the next day and see how that sits with him.
> ************
>
> It would be better to leave it because its too much to handle one more thing today, then make it some kind of spite-fest. Maybe that's not what you meant, Nance, but it kind of comes across that way :( Its good to recognize that the house isn't going to fall down if the mess sits and extra day, for sure! If there's one spot that really bugs you, clean that one spot. The side of the island where we sit to eat is my "twitch" spot. If I can't put my tired elbows down without hitting something sticky, I get cranky, so I make sure I clean my spot before I sit down, if George hasn't cleaned that part of the counter. He often doesn't, or does and then... well, with kids home all day things don't stay clean long. When I'm too tired to clean, place mats are my best friends.
>
> ---Meredith
>
Amanda's Shoebox
--- In [email protected], "plaidpanties666" <plaidpanties666@...> wrote:
~ Amanda
>Can you take time in the morning or evening, if not on the way home from work?This is exactly what crossed my mind when I read the original post. I work out of the home now, but when the girls were little I waitressed and would often come home exhausted and sore wanting only to sit down and rejuvenate a little bit before being around anyone else. Maybe you could stop by a bookstore and have a cup of coffee and relax and rejuvenate for 1/2 an hour before you come home... or if you don't like coffee... maybe read a magazine at the library? Something like that might help you transition from work mode to family mode.
~ Amanda
plaidpanties666
<sylvia057@...> wrote:
---Meredith
>It is, but I haven't been able to find it on a search of Yahoo groups - anyone have a link?
> Is there also a group called Peaceful Partnerships out there as well? That
> might be the one that you are thinking about.
---Meredith
plaidpanties666
<marbleface@...> wrote:
I'm glad that wasn't what you meant! Just like kids, though, the trouble with teaching lessons to adults is that they don't always learn what's being taught. Mom not cleaning might send dad a different message entirely, like "she's finally figured out housework isn't so important, thank goodness" or, depending on his baggage "what am I being punished for now?". That's *why* unschooling doesn't make use of lessons or even "teachable moments" - learning is in the experience of the learner, not the lesson of the teacher.
There probably *is* a gender based dynamic going on - its cuturally reasonable for dad to come home from work and say "what's with the mess? clean this up, since you're home all day" whereas mom's more inclined to pitch in and help out. But that same gender dynamic means mom saying "clean this up" can be "heard" differently. I'm not saying that's right or good, but its pretty important to recognize how gender issues can get in the way of communication.
---Meredith
> Spitefest was not what I was aiming for. Object lesson might be closer.*************
I'm glad that wasn't what you meant! Just like kids, though, the trouble with teaching lessons to adults is that they don't always learn what's being taught. Mom not cleaning might send dad a different message entirely, like "she's finally figured out housework isn't so important, thank goodness" or, depending on his baggage "what am I being punished for now?". That's *why* unschooling doesn't make use of lessons or even "teachable moments" - learning is in the experience of the learner, not the lesson of the teacher.
There probably *is* a gender based dynamic going on - its cuturally reasonable for dad to come home from work and say "what's with the mess? clean this up, since you're home all day" whereas mom's more inclined to pitch in and help out. But that same gender dynamic means mom saying "clean this up" can be "heard" differently. I'm not saying that's right or good, but its pretty important to recognize how gender issues can get in the way of communication.
---Meredith
otherstar
From: marbleface@...
Sent: Sunday, June 27, 2010 7:41 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: Two steps backward
Connie
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sent: Sunday, June 27, 2010 7:41 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: Two steps backward
>>>>Well, "open and honest" around here is that I can't do it all and can't hire nannies and none of us want to live in filth and too much mess. So if my DH sees a pile of laundry, if he's not too tired, he folds it. If he sees a sink full of dishes, if he's not too tired, he loads the dishwasher. <<<<Same here. : -) However, if you have baggage from growing up in a household where there were traditional male/female roles, then it may take a while to get to a point where household chores are done by everyone. My husband and I had to talk through our expectations. Things got a lot better when we were both able get rid of the expectations and always give each other the benefit of the doubt. If he doesn't do something, I assume positive intent. If I don't do something, he assumes positive intent. I feel like I grew up in a house where everything was taken personally. It took me a while to get past that. If my husband doesn't do something, it isn't because he is trying to punish me or teach me a lesson. If my husband doesn't do something, it isn't because he is lazy or inconsiderate. I had to actively try to find the positive intent in everything because I grew up always assuming the worst.
>>>There are only a certain number of hours in the day and certain things that need doing to keep functioning.<<<The things that need to be done to keep functioning are always changing in our house. I have had to reassess what I think needs to be done. The world won't end if the sink is full of dishes for a couple of days. The world won't end if the beds aren't made. I had to adjust my own comfort levels to accept more mess and clutter than *I* like. I had to quit being so alarmist about everything.
>>>>My point was that it seemed like the original poster's DH was waiting for Mom to get home to do any of the necessary chores. If that's the case, my suggestion would be that she be "open and honest" with him and show him how to load a dishwasher and run a vacuum. If that's not the case, never mind.<<<<I wasn't sure why mom was doing all of the chores. Was it because the dad was playing with the kids and engaging them during the day? Was it because there are expectations that stem from stereotypical gender roles? Was it because the mom feels like she has to? Is the dad not doing those things because mom has never asked in a direct manner? Is dad not doing those things because mom hasn't communicated her wants/desires openly and honestly? There are a million reasons why mom and dad are doing the things that they are doing and the only way to figure it out is to talk about it openly and honestly without any assumptions about skill, ability, knowledge, intent, etc. When I read your post, I got a little defensive because I am the stay-at-home parent and I would be livid if my husband tried to show me how to load a dishwasher or run the vacuum because I might not know how. Assuming that I don't do things because I don't have the skill or ability is a bit insulting. If I ask my husband to do something and he doesn't know how to do it, I trust that he will tell me he doesn't know how to do it. If he asks me to do something and I don't know how to do it, I tell him. We talk about what we can and can't do. We talk about what we want/need because trying to change things without talking to the other people involved is counterproductive. It becomes a guessing game that usually ends up in frustration.
Connie
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
otherstar
From: marbleface@...
Sent: Sunday, June 27, 2010 7:44 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: Two steps backward
Connie
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sent: Sunday, June 27, 2010 7:44 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: Two steps backward
>>Spitefest was not what I was aiming for. Object lesson might be closer. "Here's what it looks like/feels like/lives like when I don't do two jobs." <<<I see what you are saying but the problem is that it may look or feel different to you but to them it may not make one ounce of difference. I tried going on a mini-strike one time. It didn't make an ounce of difference to anybody but me. The extra mess didn't seem to bother anybody. I was the one that ended up learning the lesson. I realized that I could relax and let things go without the world ending. I used to feel a real sense of urgency about having a clean sink and a clean house. I keep using hyperbole by saying "I thought the world was going to end." because that is how I felt about it. Nobody else could understand my sense of urgency. My feelings were mine and I had to own that.
Connie
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Elli
Peaceful Partnerships...
Here you go:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Peacefulpartnerships/
Peaceful Partnerships is where I discovered Retrouvaille which saved our marriage which saved our choice to unschool. Retrouvaille gave us skills and insights into each other and our feelings that has allowed us to move forward in ways that I never could have imagined before. And it helped us to heal sooooooo much.
Like I said in the two steps backward thread, none of the talk about communication made much sense to me until hubby and I went to Retrouvaille. I'd read all of the advice from all of you wonderful unschoolers and peaceful partnership people and think to myself, "how in the world do they make this stuff happen in their homes??? I can't seem to be able to say what they say or do what they do or create the harmony and serenity that I crave!!!" I'd imagine my hubby ignoring my requests or comments or seeing them as an attempt to manipulate him. Sometimes I'd try what you all would offer and other times I'd just throw up my hands.
When hubby and I went to Retrouvaille in the fall, we learned how to share our feelings and listen. As a result we each get the extreme pleasure of seeing inside each others' heart. What an exquisite view!!!!! One I highly recommend to anyone!! And we were left with skills that allow us to create the serene and peaceful home that we want.
Yeah, there is laundry to do, rooms to clean, dinner to cook, and more. We've found ways to take care of those things. We've found ways to let go of resentment. We've found ways to be fully present with each other and the kids. All because we discovered how to communicate with love and honesty thanks to Retrouvaille.
I recommend it for anyone who looks at a situation in their marriage and thinks, "there is no way I can get him/her to respond to my needs." and feels overwhelmed the majority of the time they are home.
Blah, blah, blah...I'll stop talking about the program now. I want to shower and get ready for work. Have a great day, all.
Love,
Elli
Here you go:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Peacefulpartnerships/
Peaceful Partnerships is where I discovered Retrouvaille which saved our marriage which saved our choice to unschool. Retrouvaille gave us skills and insights into each other and our feelings that has allowed us to move forward in ways that I never could have imagined before. And it helped us to heal sooooooo much.
Like I said in the two steps backward thread, none of the talk about communication made much sense to me until hubby and I went to Retrouvaille. I'd read all of the advice from all of you wonderful unschoolers and peaceful partnership people and think to myself, "how in the world do they make this stuff happen in their homes??? I can't seem to be able to say what they say or do what they do or create the harmony and serenity that I crave!!!" I'd imagine my hubby ignoring my requests or comments or seeing them as an attempt to manipulate him. Sometimes I'd try what you all would offer and other times I'd just throw up my hands.
When hubby and I went to Retrouvaille in the fall, we learned how to share our feelings and listen. As a result we each get the extreme pleasure of seeing inside each others' heart. What an exquisite view!!!!! One I highly recommend to anyone!! And we were left with skills that allow us to create the serene and peaceful home that we want.
Yeah, there is laundry to do, rooms to clean, dinner to cook, and more. We've found ways to take care of those things. We've found ways to let go of resentment. We've found ways to be fully present with each other and the kids. All because we discovered how to communicate with love and honesty thanks to Retrouvaille.
I recommend it for anyone who looks at a situation in their marriage and thinks, "there is no way I can get him/her to respond to my needs." and feels overwhelmed the majority of the time they are home.
Blah, blah, blah...I'll stop talking about the program now. I want to shower and get ready for work. Have a great day, all.
Love,
Elli
[email protected]
Yep. Gender issues are real.
Nance
Nance
--- In [email protected], "plaidpanties666" <plaidpanties666@...> wrote:
>
> <marbleface@> wrote:
> > Spitefest was not what I was aiming for. Object lesson might be closer.
> *************
>
> I'm glad that wasn't what you meant! Just like kids, though, the trouble with teaching lessons to adults is that they don't always learn what's being taught. Mom not cleaning might send dad a different message entirely, like "she's finally figured out housework isn't so important, thank goodness" or, depending on his baggage "what am I being punished for now?". That's *why* unschooling doesn't make use of lessons or even "teachable moments" - learning is in the experience of the learner, not the lesson of the teacher.
>
> There probably *is* a gender based dynamic going on - its cuturally reasonable for dad to come home from work and say "what's with the mess? clean this up, since you're home all day" whereas mom's more inclined to pitch in and help out. But that same gender dynamic means mom saying "clean this up" can be "heard" differently. I'm not saying that's right or good, but its pretty important to recognize how gender issues can get in the way of communication.
>
> ---Meredith
>
[email protected]
Glad that worked for you. Really. You got a wake up call about what doesn't matter and that sounds good.
And if the original poster's DH is bothered by undone chores, he may see where he needs to pitch in. He may complain. He may not. He may not be bothered. They may talk more or less about everything. Every family dynamic is a bit different, as we all know.
And it does take a while to figure out what works in your family and what doesn't. After 30+ years, DH and I have a lot of it figured out. He still ticks me off but . . . :)
Nance
And if the original poster's DH is bothered by undone chores, he may see where he needs to pitch in. He may complain. He may not. He may not be bothered. They may talk more or less about everything. Every family dynamic is a bit different, as we all know.
And it does take a while to figure out what works in your family and what doesn't. After 30+ years, DH and I have a lot of it figured out. He still ticks me off but . . . :)
Nance
--- In [email protected], "otherstar" <otherstar@...> wrote:
>
> From: marbleface@...
> Sent: Sunday, June 27, 2010 7:44 AM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: Two steps backward
>
>
> >>Spitefest was not what I was aiming for. Object lesson might be closer. "Here's what it looks like/feels like/lives like when I don't do two jobs." <<<
>
> I see what you are saying but the problem is that it may look or feel different to you but to them it may not make one ounce of difference. I tried going on a mini-strike one time. It didn't make an ounce of difference to anybody but me. The extra mess didn't seem to bother anybody. I was the one that ended up learning the lesson. I realized that I could relax and let things go without the world ending. I used to feel a real sense of urgency about having a clean sink and a clean house. I keep using hyperbole by saying "I thought the world was going to end." because that is how I felt about it. Nobody else could understand my sense of urgency. My feelings were mine and I had to own that.
>
> Connie
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
[email protected]
One more thought before I run out --
It's not easy. None of this is easy. And it's made more difficult by the economic stress many of us are feeling.
Whichever approach you take, there's no guarantee that it's going to click with your spouse or your child in all of these family issues. We can do better but we can't expect a perfect result all the time.
Like not being worried about dishes in the sink, we also need to give ourselves a break as we muddle through the best way to communicate.
Unschooling ideas offer a nice foundation for approaching some of these issues but the results are complicated by the rest of life -- relationship dynamics, finances, sexism, changes with ages (kids and adults), etc., etc., etc.
Good luck, original poster, in figuring all of this out.
Nance
It's not easy. None of this is easy. And it's made more difficult by the economic stress many of us are feeling.
Whichever approach you take, there's no guarantee that it's going to click with your spouse or your child in all of these family issues. We can do better but we can't expect a perfect result all the time.
Like not being worried about dishes in the sink, we also need to give ourselves a break as we muddle through the best way to communicate.
Unschooling ideas offer a nice foundation for approaching some of these issues but the results are complicated by the rest of life -- relationship dynamics, finances, sexism, changes with ages (kids and adults), etc., etc., etc.
Good luck, original poster, in figuring all of this out.
Nance
--- In [email protected], "marbleface@..." <marbleface@...> wrote:
>
> Glad that worked for you. Really. You got a wake up call about what doesn't matter and that sounds good.
>
> And if the original poster's DH is bothered by undone chores, he may see where he needs to pitch in. He may complain. He may not. He may not be bothered. They may talk more or less about everything. Every family dynamic is a bit different, as we all know.
>
> And it does take a while to figure out what works in your family and what doesn't. After 30+ years, DH and I have a lot of it figured out. He still ticks me off but . . . :)
>
> Nance
>
>
>
> --- In [email protected], "otherstar" <otherstar@> wrote:
> >
> > From: marbleface@
> > Sent: Sunday, June 27, 2010 7:44 AM
> > To: [email protected]
> > Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: Two steps backward
> >
> >
> > >>Spitefest was not what I was aiming for. Object lesson might be closer. "Here's what it looks like/feels like/lives like when I don't do two jobs." <<<
> >
> > I see what you are saying but the problem is that it may look or feel different to you but to them it may not make one ounce of difference. I tried going on a mini-strike one time. It didn't make an ounce of difference to anybody but me. The extra mess didn't seem to bother anybody. I was the one that ended up learning the lesson. I realized that I could relax and let things go without the world ending. I used to feel a real sense of urgency about having a clean sink and a clean house. I keep using hyperbole by saying "I thought the world was going to end." because that is how I felt about it. Nobody else could understand my sense of urgency. My feelings were mine and I had to own that.
> >
> > Connie
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
kristi_beguin
Hi Connie, thank you for taking the time to read and reply.
>>> I think that we all do that at times. I am not saying that it is okay to be rude all the time but it is a lot easier to move past the bad times when we quit focusing on them so much. Yes, you have been less than kind. It doesn't mean that you are a bad mom. It means that you are human. Find healthy ways to deal with your stress so that you can get it out of your system.<<<I know that these lists are not support groups, but this really is what I need to hear. Despite the many friends and family I have that are kind and gentle and supportive of their kids, we often don't discuss the bad moments. Unschooling lists are so full of helpful information that I sometimes feel like I'm trying to live up to this mothering ideal, and I get frustrated when I blow it, thinking that I'm failing in my endeavor to be the kind of parent I want to be. I *know* that I'm not failing, but sometimes it feels that way. Knowing that other mindful Unschoolers have moments of frustration helps me to not see only the ideal.
>>> You don't need to take control. You need to let go. Control is an illusion. : -) <<<I disagree to the extent that being an adult, I should be able to control my mouth and not react so poorly. Meredith's suggestions to find other things to say is a useful one. I can control my reaction by having different responses to choose from. It doesn't have to be a nasty one.
kristi_beguin
"Claire Marketos" wrote:
I'm just curious, Claire, are you an Unschooling parent? Your website seems to suggest otherwise. While I appreciate the fact that you took the time to write a response, I wasn't really looking to be advised by an educational expert. I was seeking the anecdotes and wisdom of experienced unschoolers, especially from those families where the Mother works outside the home, even part-time.
>>> I would advise you in the long term to discuss with your partner & boss options for working closer to home or look for another job that allows you the flexibility to spend more time with your children.<<<Actually, my work arrangement is beyond ideal. I work part-time, I am less than 4 minutes from my home, and I have the option to work from home as often as I choose. It really doesn't get much better. Plus I earn enough to be part-time, yet still be the breadwinner.
>>>I would also recommend you have a helper, domestic service come in once or twice a week, depending on affordability to help with house work. In addition, be open to allowing family members and friends to help where they can whether it's cooking a meal, watching the kids for a couple of hours while you do something you enjoy to refuel yourself.<<<Because I'm part-time, however I cannot afford to bring in outside help, nor would I really choose to. We live next door to my in-laws who care for my girls two days a week, plus the kids are over there many times throughout the day and weekend on their own, because they adore their grandparents. My mother is with my girls one day a week. We have a lot of family resources.
>>>Make a plan with the kids that when you get home you will spend the first hour playing with them as a group and then individual one on one 10 minute time with each of them after that. Having a plan may help to reduce jealousy.<<<This sounds somewhat arbitrary, and wouldn't work for us as we are all quite busy in the evenings. Individual time with each of my girls is not something they generally choosethey prefer to be together when we do things.
I'm just curious, Claire, are you an Unschooling parent? Your website seems to suggest otherwise. While I appreciate the fact that you took the time to write a response, I wasn't really looking to be advised by an educational expert. I was seeking the anecdotes and wisdom of experienced unschoolers, especially from those families where the Mother works outside the home, even part-time.
kristi_beguin
>>> The first thought I had was to wonder what's going on for you at work. I know from my own experience as the working parent that when work is going smoothly, its easier for me to connect at home then when work is frustrating.<<<Work has been very busy, but at least it's been a stimulating busy. But busy and somewhat frantic, none-the-less. The reminder to keep that in mind is very useful.
> >> Staying stuck keeps me from learning. So learning to be a better parent involved me learning not to stay stuck.<<<This is precisely the sort of concept I needed to hear. I realized that just in writing my post, I let go of some of that stuck energy. This past weekend was glorious. I took Friday off, the kids and I and friends swam at the pool all day on Friday, I got in a long trail run in the morning before the kids woke up, Saturday was another blissful summer day at the pool, followed by pizza out and an evening visit with friends. Sunday, I took an early morning mountain bike ride before the girls woke up, and the puppy got worn out. Then the girls each decided they wanted to do different things and were okay with it, so I took my youngest swimming, while my oldest stayed with her Dad. Despite some moments where the girls were having their own conflicts or differing interests, I handled everything just fine and we were all able to work through things together. I wasn't stuck, I had released some of that in writing down some of my thoughts.
>>>I need Something Else to Say. <<<Perfect. This is something I can learn to do.
>>>With that perspective, I can see a dearth of clean dishes as a sign that everyone ate well today - hooray! A jumble of toys and paper scraps all through the house means a day of busy play and exploration - yippee! A wiped-out partner is one who spent the day engaged with the kids - yaaayyy! That's why I go to work after all - so that my loved ones can live life to the fullest while I'm gone. The detritus of a well lived life can be impressive!<<<Subtle changes in perspective can make a huge difference. Thanks for that!
Your ideas and perspective are often written so clearly. I appreciate you taking the time to read and respond, and your suggestions are helpful.
kristi_beguin
>>>Why is housework waiting for you when you get home? You need to spend time with the kids and relax, too. If DH is there all day he -- and the kids when they see what living together and helping each other as needed looks like -- he can do what can be done during the day and leave nothing for you and you can deal with what comes up while you are home and leave no outstanding housework for him.<<<My husband is working as well. He's not at home with the kids all day. They are with each of their Grandmothers for 3 days a week, and with their dad one day. Dishes happen! My husband is not the best dish do-er, and that's okay. I actually enjoy doing most household stuff, but I have a distinct lack of time because we are all so busy. We don't mind having the house be more on the messier side...lately it just seems like messy has become more typical.
kristi_beguin
>>>3. We have a dry erase board in the kitchen where we write our to-do list. My husband and I touch base each Saturday regarding the list. I let him know if there is something that I really want taken care of during the weekend. He lets me know when he is going to get to it. We both pick away at the list and enjoy the thrill of wiping off the done chores. By Sunday mid-day, the board is usually clean.<<<I like this idea! Thanks.
> 5. Decluttering!!No kidding!! I just need some time to do it. We lost our home to fire 10 years ago, and so I have this really easy time, now, getting rid of stuff. If it's not being used, and is taking up space, it needs to go. Losing everything actually made it easier to get rid of things in the long term. I need to actually take a week off work to do a major go-through...but I'll wait until the weather is not so beautiful...summer is my absolute favorite season.
otherstar
From: kristi_beguin
Sent: Monday, June 28, 2010 10:55 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: Two steps backward
Connie
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Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 9.0.830 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2968 - Release Date: 06/28/10 01:37:00
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sent: Monday, June 28, 2010 10:55 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: Two steps backward
>>>Knowing that other mindful Unschoolers have moments of frustration helps me to not see only the ideal.<<<I had to actually meet some unschoolers in real life before I got it. The most helpful conversation I had about unschooling was when another mom and I were sharing the bad moments and talking about how to recover from them. Some could say that it was being supportive but I saw it as us sharing our tools with each other. It is unrealistic to think that there will never be any bad moments or frustration. I was a lot more comfortable sharing specific bad moments and opening myself up in a face-to-face conversation with other unschoolers because I knew that it would not exist forever in cyberspace. : -)
>>>I disagree to the extent that being an adult, I should be able to control my mouth and not react so poorly. Meredith's suggestions to find other things to say is a useful one. I can control my reaction by having different responses to choose from. It doesn't have to be a nasty one. <<<I should be able to do a lot of things but that doesn't mean that I can actually do it all of the time on a consistent basis. I try to extend the same level of understanding and compassion towards myself as I do my kids and my husband. Finding tools like Meredith's suggestion has been a way for me to honor the fact that I have a big mouth and don't always know when to shut up even though I am an adult and should know better. Transitioning to whole life unschooling takes time and it doesn't happen over night. At least it didn't for us. I don't know that I will ever get to a point where I can say that we are successful unschoolers that get it right every time. I will always be able to do better no matter how good I think I am doing.
Connie
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Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
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