is it wrong for me to expect my friends children to be somewhat respectful?
becca
Okay here I go :) First and foremost I love my friend and her kids dearly but I keep having a recurring issue within myself that I need some unschooling prespective on...
How do you deal with another childs disrepsect or rudeness?
for instance: My 4 year old wants to join my other boy and friends 2 kids on a walk -- he want's to ride his bike so he's going to catch up with them and my friends daughter clearly does not want him to join them (she scream no you can't) and proceeds to stand in front of him when he is trying to go by and than when he trys to swerve around to miss her she steps yet again in front of him -- he falls and bashes his forehead and mouth -- just a scrap but it could have been worse and she also could have been heard.. When I yell down to her that she can't do that - she blantely says "I didn't see him" --- she did she was looking right at him and i watched the whole thing--- she runs off and pouts and I leave her alone .... Now the whole time the mother is there?
Am I wrong for thinking the mom should have at least talked to her daughter about this ? I'm not asking her to discipline her or anything else but just acknowledge it maybe??
my other instances that just grind me is when I ask her children to help with something and I get blatant no's! How can I refocus my frustration with this? And I think I could handle a no but when I literally get screamed at ?? I can understand if I was rude but when I just ask something simple -- sometimes just even asking a question -- not knowing the child is already upset I literally have gotten screamed at from the top of her lungs ! really it's hard enough to wrap my brain around my own children outburst and finding positive ways to redirect...
I guess I wouldn't be as frustrated if the parent wasn't right there and nothing said??? I say things sometimes to the child about not appreciating being yelled at -- but sometimes not sure if that's even right?
I really don't like overstepping my boundries with parents! The parent and I have discussed things before and I've asked her if it bothered her when I spoke up to her kids etc.. and she said no but sometimes ??
Mainly I guess I feel just frustrated by the blatent disrepect -- I was a mouthy stubborn, explosive child (and still am at times as an adult:) but I don't ever remember talking to my mom or dad friends that way!! am I being to old school???
How do you deal with another childs disrepsect or rudeness?
for instance: My 4 year old wants to join my other boy and friends 2 kids on a walk -- he want's to ride his bike so he's going to catch up with them and my friends daughter clearly does not want him to join them (she scream no you can't) and proceeds to stand in front of him when he is trying to go by and than when he trys to swerve around to miss her she steps yet again in front of him -- he falls and bashes his forehead and mouth -- just a scrap but it could have been worse and she also could have been heard.. When I yell down to her that she can't do that - she blantely says "I didn't see him" --- she did she was looking right at him and i watched the whole thing--- she runs off and pouts and I leave her alone .... Now the whole time the mother is there?
Am I wrong for thinking the mom should have at least talked to her daughter about this ? I'm not asking her to discipline her or anything else but just acknowledge it maybe??
my other instances that just grind me is when I ask her children to help with something and I get blatant no's! How can I refocus my frustration with this? And I think I could handle a no but when I literally get screamed at ?? I can understand if I was rude but when I just ask something simple -- sometimes just even asking a question -- not knowing the child is already upset I literally have gotten screamed at from the top of her lungs ! really it's hard enough to wrap my brain around my own children outburst and finding positive ways to redirect...
I guess I wouldn't be as frustrated if the parent wasn't right there and nothing said??? I say things sometimes to the child about not appreciating being yelled at -- but sometimes not sure if that's even right?
I really don't like overstepping my boundries with parents! The parent and I have discussed things before and I've asked her if it bothered her when I spoke up to her kids etc.. and she said no but sometimes ??
Mainly I guess I feel just frustrated by the blatent disrepect -- I was a mouthy stubborn, explosive child (and still am at times as an adult:) but I don't ever remember talking to my mom or dad friends that way!! am I being to old school???
otherstar
From: becca
Sent: Friday, June 11, 2010 2:20 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] is it wrong for me to expect my friends children to be somewhat respectful?
Connie
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sent: Friday, June 11, 2010 2:20 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] is it wrong for me to expect my friends children to be somewhat respectful?
>>>>for instance: My 4 year old wants to join my other boy and friends 2 kids on a walk -- he want's to ride his bike so he's going to catch up with them and my friends daughter clearly does not want him to join them (she scream no you can't) and proceeds to stand in front of him when he is trying to go by and than when he trys to swerve around to miss her she steps yet again in front of him -- he falls and bashes his forehead and mouth -- just a scrap but it could have been worse and she also could have been heard.. When I yell down to her that she can't do that - she blantely says "I didn't see him" --- she did she was looking right at him and i watched the whole thing--- she runs off and pouts and I leave her alone .... Now the whole time the mother is there?<<<<Why is it the other mother's responsibility to step in? If you know that the bigger kids don't want to bugged by the four year old, why didn't you step in and ask your four year old to hang out with you instead? When my older kids tell the younger ones that they don't want them with them, I try to distract the younger ones so that they aren't bothering the older kids.
>>>Am I wrong for thinking the mom should have at least talked to her daughter about this ? I'm not asking her to discipline her or anything else but just acknowledge it maybe??<<<How should she acknowledge it? What exactly do you want her to say? Do you want her to apologize for her daughter's behavior? What is she supposed to say to her daughter? Is she supposed to tell her daughter that NO means YES. Her daughter told your son NO. She didn't want him hanging out with them yet your son persisted and you let him. Whenever I get in situations like this, I try to figure out what I could do differently to help diffuse the situation or prevent it from happening in the first place.
>>>my other instances that just grind me is when I ask her children to help with something and I get blatant no's! How can I refocus my frustration with this? And I think I could handle a no but when I literally get screamed at ?? I can understand if I was rude but when I just ask something simple -- sometimes just even asking a question -- not knowing the child is already upset I literally have gotten screamed at from the top of her lungs ! really it's hard enough to wrap my brain around my own children outburst and finding positive ways to redirect... <<<What kinds of things are you asking the children to do? What do you want them to help with? Do your children have the option of saying no? Are you with these kids all the time? It seems like there might be more to the story. If being around these kids is so stressful for you, why do you continue to do it? I recently had a situation where my niece's friend was coming over with her all the time. They are college students but he acts more like my 5 year old at times. He ate all of my husband's dinner after I had asked everyone to save enough for my husband. Even though I said it repeatedly, he claims that he didn't hear me. There were several other instances where he has "not heard" what I said or didn't pay attention to what was going on. In one instance, I announced that I was going to take a shower. He walked in on me and then acted all confused. I have told my niece that her friend can't come over for a while because I need to get some perspective. Is there a reason that you continue to see these people? How old is this girl? Are we talking about a 5 or 6 year old or an 11 year old or somebody even older?
>>>I guess I wouldn't be as frustrated if the parent wasn't right there and nothing said??? I say things sometimes to the child about not appreciating being yelled at -- but sometimes not sure if that's even right?<<<<If a kid is treating me in ways that I don't like, I say something or I remove myself from the situation. Nobody has to be yelled at by a child or anybody else. What is the parent supposed to say or do? Is the parent supposed to reprimand the child for yelling at you? What type of relationship does the parent have with the child? Are they an unschooling family?
>>>I really don't like overstepping my boundries with parents! The parent and I have discussed things before and I've asked her if it bothered her when I spoke up to her kids etc.. and she said no but sometimes ??<<<What do you mean by "no but sometimes?" Sometimes it bugs her? Or, no, it doesn't bug her at all? If you can't get a straight answer from the mom and are continually treated like crap, I would re-evaluate the friendship.
>>>Mainly I guess I feel just frustrated by the blatent disrepect -- I was a mouthy stubborn, explosive child (and still am at times as an adult:) but I don't ever remember talking to my mom or dad friends that way!! am I being to old school??? <<<When people come to my house and treat me like crap, I call them on it. My niece came into my house one time and was spouting off a bunch of junk. I told her that I was not going to have her behave like that in my house. She got mad at me and left. Her mom was sitting right there. I didn't give her mom a chance to say anything. If her mom had gotten mad at me, I would have apologized and said that I don't like being yelled at or treated like crap by anyone.
Connie
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
plaidpanties666
--- In [email protected], "becca" <rebeccadehate@...> wrote:
If it was *just* your kids - if your other son didn't want the company, would you start by assuming the 4yo somehow had the right to go along? Maybe your kids just naturally get along like that, but older siblings sometimes like a break from younger siblings. With eight years between my kids I frequently check in with Ray to make sure he's okay with Mo when she's hanging on his coat tails. If he's not okay with her company, I help her find something else fun to do, probably with me.
It was awkward that you weren't on hand. It may be that your 4yo needs more support when other kids are around to help him navigate social situations.
Sounds like a couple kids have a disagreement with no support. Consider the possibility, too, that this girl sees a younger child as someone she'll be held responsible for - that's common, for older kids to have to look out for younger, and girls especially. She's setting some boundaries. Not very politely, but that's not a horrible crime. Adults are rude to children all the time - its likely the norm in her world that older means you get to be rude to younger. From her perspective, her behavior is totally reasonable.
Of course she did! That's how rule-based thinking works: Don't Get Caught. Again, adults do that all the time. Ever been to traffic court?
Why should they help you? For that matter, why should you ask? Chances are their parents don't do much actual asking. If your kids tend to be helpful, that's something about them. Its not something that can be generalized to other children.
If someone is screaming than either that person is at the end of his or her emotional rope or is so used to being disregarded that the only way to communicate is to *seem* to be at the end of that rope. If that's the case than it may be those kids don't get enough attention and care - like they're so used to being disrespected as human beings they have little repect to extend to anyone else.
It can help to think about how much time you can spend helping out when these kids are playing with yours. Set yourself up to be present and helpful. When you can't be present and helpful, it might be better if your kids do something else.
I know people who expect other adults to discipline their kids. So I don't spend time with those kids without prior planning. If I can't set up a situation to minimize difficulties, then no play-date. I Don't try to discipline other children beyond sending them home.
I've also met people with high-energy or intense kids who don't really know what to do with those kids beyond "spank harder". Most of them don't know what to do - nothing seems to "work" with their kids (including spanking harder), so they hang back and watch to see if other parents have any ideas. Often it helps folks like that to meet just one other family with an intense child - its really hard to be surrounded by people with easy-going kids and have the One who breaks all the toys, knocks everyone down and scares people. That's not very helpful to you if don't have the skills to deal with those kids, either, but it can be a useful piece of perspective. Its not that the kids are "bad" so much that they are utterly lacking in the kinds of support they need - and maybe the parents are, too.
Its perfectly alright to articulate your own boundaries! But at the same time, you're dealing with someone with minimal skills, a different upbringing, and maybe high-intensity. So "don't do that" even said kindly, isn't going to be very effective. You need to offer alternatives and strategies. You need to parent that child through difficult moments - or you need to say "its time for you to go" and evict the child from your presence and that of your children.
Being proactive is important! Look for ways to set up better interactions between you and the other kids. That means looking for ways for you to be something other than what they expect adults to be - disciplinarians. You can't supervise, you need to be part of the fun, the facilitator of good stuff.
I'm re-reading your post and seeing you called this family friends of yours - that doesn't really change any of what I wrote other than giving you a basis for working out some strategies with the other family. If you haven't before, ask for a clear articulation of their rules and expectations so you have a clearer idea of what the kids expect. For instance, how do the parents handle kids being loud and rude to adults? If they think that's normal kid behavior then that's some really important information!
Its up to you to decide how to handle "rules" with which you disagree - as I said, I try to work around them by setting things up to avoid certain issues, but I also set rules of my own that the kids find "normal". The one real rule for visiting kids in my home is "no company upstairs" since that's the master bedroom and Mo's little annex of a room. That rule lets us be proactive about things Mo doesn't want to share and I don't want to handle fights over - all that goes upstairs. If there's an object of dispute and the dispute can't be settled, it goes upstairs. If Mo needs time to chill out - she's an introvert - then She goes upstairs (which is where she'd go naturally). Upstairs becomes the "safety zone" as it were.
Beyond that I try to help kids negotiate drama as best I can. That's more challenging with schooled kids with siblings because they're used to a complex dance of power and layers of force that Mo isn't, and I'm not either, any more. Really, we do much better with unschoolers when we can find them - they have better skills! They negotiate more, even the ones who also throw punches (and Mo will resort to throwing punches at times, too).
But I don't leave Mo alone with other kids until I'm comfortable with the way the kids communicate. That was true with Ray when he was younger, too. I'm not the "supervisor" though, I'm the audience, or part of the fun, or the facilitator, or the consultant.
---Meredith (Mo 8, Ray 16)
>> How do you deal with another childs disrepsect or rudeness?The same way I deal with another adult's disrespect or rudeness to some extent. I Don't take it personally, and I look for what else is contributing to the situation. That's hard to do if I'm falling into "Mama Bear" mode! and first time problems with other people of *any* age leave me feeling like a deer in the headlights. I pretty frequently either freeze up or do exactly the wrong thing - but if I have to deal with that person again, I take some time to think about the world from the perspective of that other person. That's likely not the same as the perspective I'd *like* that other person to have!
> for instance: My 4 year old wants to join my other boy and friends 2 kids on a walk -- he want's to ride his bike so he's going to catch up with them and my friends daughter clearly does not want him to join them*******************
If it was *just* your kids - if your other son didn't want the company, would you start by assuming the 4yo somehow had the right to go along? Maybe your kids just naturally get along like that, but older siblings sometimes like a break from younger siblings. With eight years between my kids I frequently check in with Ray to make sure he's okay with Mo when she's hanging on his coat tails. If he's not okay with her company, I help her find something else fun to do, probably with me.
It was awkward that you weren't on hand. It may be that your 4yo needs more support when other kids are around to help him navigate social situations.
>>(she scream no you can't) and proceeds to stand in front of him when he is trying to go by and than when he trys to swerve around to miss her she steps yet again in front of him****************
Sounds like a couple kids have a disagreement with no support. Consider the possibility, too, that this girl sees a younger child as someone she'll be held responsible for - that's common, for older kids to have to look out for younger, and girls especially. She's setting some boundaries. Not very politely, but that's not a horrible crime. Adults are rude to children all the time - its likely the norm in her world that older means you get to be rude to younger. From her perspective, her behavior is totally reasonable.
>>When I yell down to her that she can't do that - she blantely says "I didn't see him"***********
Of course she did! That's how rule-based thinking works: Don't Get Caught. Again, adults do that all the time. Ever been to traffic court?
>Now the whole time the mother is there?Maybe she didn't see anything wrong with her dd standing up for herself against "an annoying little kid" or bossing a younger child. Maybe she expected you to advocate for your own child. Maybe she expected you to discipline hers if you weren't happy with the situation. I'm not saying I agree with any of those but all are typical parenting expectations. If you don't have prior agreements with other parents don't expect them to do what you would like them to do! If you want the mom to do something specific in that kind of situation in the future, you'll need to make some very specific agreements.
>>> my other instances that just grind me is when I ask her children to help with something and I get blatant no's!****************
Why should they help you? For that matter, why should you ask? Chances are their parents don't do much actual asking. If your kids tend to be helpful, that's something about them. Its not something that can be generalized to other children.
>> And I think I could handle a no but when I literally get screamed at ??************
If someone is screaming than either that person is at the end of his or her emotional rope or is so used to being disregarded that the only way to communicate is to *seem* to be at the end of that rope. If that's the case than it may be those kids don't get enough attention and care - like they're so used to being disrespected as human beings they have little repect to extend to anyone else.
It can help to think about how much time you can spend helping out when these kids are playing with yours. Set yourself up to be present and helpful. When you can't be present and helpful, it might be better if your kids do something else.
> I really don't like overstepping my boundries with parents! The parent and I have discussed things before and I've asked her if it bothered her when I spoke up to her kids etc.. and she said no but sometimes ??**********************
I know people who expect other adults to discipline their kids. So I don't spend time with those kids without prior planning. If I can't set up a situation to minimize difficulties, then no play-date. I Don't try to discipline other children beyond sending them home.
I've also met people with high-energy or intense kids who don't really know what to do with those kids beyond "spank harder". Most of them don't know what to do - nothing seems to "work" with their kids (including spanking harder), so they hang back and watch to see if other parents have any ideas. Often it helps folks like that to meet just one other family with an intense child - its really hard to be surrounded by people with easy-going kids and have the One who breaks all the toys, knocks everyone down and scares people. That's not very helpful to you if don't have the skills to deal with those kids, either, but it can be a useful piece of perspective. Its not that the kids are "bad" so much that they are utterly lacking in the kinds of support they need - and maybe the parents are, too.
>>I say things sometimes to the child about not appreciating being yelled at -- but sometimes not sure if that's even right?*********************
Its perfectly alright to articulate your own boundaries! But at the same time, you're dealing with someone with minimal skills, a different upbringing, and maybe high-intensity. So "don't do that" even said kindly, isn't going to be very effective. You need to offer alternatives and strategies. You need to parent that child through difficult moments - or you need to say "its time for you to go" and evict the child from your presence and that of your children.
Being proactive is important! Look for ways to set up better interactions between you and the other kids. That means looking for ways for you to be something other than what they expect adults to be - disciplinarians. You can't supervise, you need to be part of the fun, the facilitator of good stuff.
I'm re-reading your post and seeing you called this family friends of yours - that doesn't really change any of what I wrote other than giving you a basis for working out some strategies with the other family. If you haven't before, ask for a clear articulation of their rules and expectations so you have a clearer idea of what the kids expect. For instance, how do the parents handle kids being loud and rude to adults? If they think that's normal kid behavior then that's some really important information!
Its up to you to decide how to handle "rules" with which you disagree - as I said, I try to work around them by setting things up to avoid certain issues, but I also set rules of my own that the kids find "normal". The one real rule for visiting kids in my home is "no company upstairs" since that's the master bedroom and Mo's little annex of a room. That rule lets us be proactive about things Mo doesn't want to share and I don't want to handle fights over - all that goes upstairs. If there's an object of dispute and the dispute can't be settled, it goes upstairs. If Mo needs time to chill out - she's an introvert - then She goes upstairs (which is where she'd go naturally). Upstairs becomes the "safety zone" as it were.
Beyond that I try to help kids negotiate drama as best I can. That's more challenging with schooled kids with siblings because they're used to a complex dance of power and layers of force that Mo isn't, and I'm not either, any more. Really, we do much better with unschoolers when we can find them - they have better skills! They negotiate more, even the ones who also throw punches (and Mo will resort to throwing punches at times, too).
But I don't leave Mo alone with other kids until I'm comfortable with the way the kids communicate. That was true with Ray when he was younger, too. I'm not the "supervisor" though, I'm the audience, or part of the fun, or the facilitator, or the consultant.
---Meredith (Mo 8, Ray 16)
rebecca de
Good points meredith (I've met you recently down in roan- my kids were ian and garrett we shared a place with susan). I knew I just needed some prespective here . nice thing is that my friend does homeschool and leans toward unschooling for sure.. So a lot of it was probably on her end that it was taken care of because I was saying something. I guess I just have to speak up and share with her that this bothered me and maybe we can figure out what i should do next time. now i'm really not trying to be defensive here but I may sound like -- I was present when the bike accident happened and I was actually going to call garrett back to me and ask the others if he could go -- but this child often thinks she's the parent:) and she starts doing ?? before I even have a chance to correct or work through it...
I do think I need to be more present at times so that I can deter things from happening -- but she's like me:) on the bit explosive side sometimes... And like with my kids -- I have to constantly work at not snapping than responding but to take a breath evaluate and help --I have said things semi -rude or just bossy like before to this child so I'm at fault at times too.
Thank you again for the input!!
Rebecca De Hate
www.the-team.biz/mv978831
www.rebeccadehate.vpweb.com
________________________________
From: plaidpanties666 <plaidpanties666@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Fri, June 11, 2010 6:19:23 PM
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: is it wrong for me to expect my friends children to be somewhat respectful?
I do think I need to be more present at times so that I can deter things from happening -- but she's like me:) on the bit explosive side sometimes... And like with my kids -- I have to constantly work at not snapping than responding but to take a breath evaluate and help --I have said things semi -rude or just bossy like before to this child so I'm at fault at times too.
Thank you again for the input!!
Rebecca De Hate
www.the-team.biz/mv978831
www.rebeccadehate.vpweb.com
________________________________
From: plaidpanties666 <plaidpanties666@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Fri, June 11, 2010 6:19:23 PM
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: is it wrong for me to expect my friends children to be somewhat respectful?
--- In [email protected], "becca" <rebeccadehate@...> wrote:
>> How do you deal with another childs disrepsect or rudeness?
The same way I deal with another adult's disrespect or rudeness to some extent. I Don't take it personally, and I look for what else is contributing to the situation. That's hard to do if I'm falling into "Mama Bear" mode! and first time problems with other people of *any* age leave me feeling like a deer in the headlights. I pretty frequently either freeze up or do exactly the wrong thing - but if I have to deal with that person again, I take some time to think about the world from the perspective of that other person. That's likely not the same as the perspective I'd *like* that other person to have!
> for instance: My 4 year old wants to join my other boy and friends 2 kids on a walk -- he want's to ride his bike so he's going to catch up with them and my friends daughter clearly does not want him to join them
*******************
If it was *just* your kids - if your other son didn't want the company, would you start by assuming the 4yo somehow had the right to go along? Maybe your kids just naturally get along like that, but older siblings sometimes like a break from younger siblings. With eight years between my kids I frequently check in with Ray to make sure he's okay with Mo when she's hanging on his coat tails. If he's not okay with her company, I help her find something else fun to do, probably with me.
It was awkward that you weren't on hand. It may be that your 4yo needs more support when other kids are around to help him navigate social situations.
>>(she scream no you can't) and proceeds to stand in front of him when he is trying to go by and than when he trys to swerve around to miss her she steps yet again in front of him
****************
Sounds like a couple kids have a disagreement with no support. Consider the possibility, too, that this girl sees a younger child as someone she'll be held responsible for - that's common, for older kids to have to look out for younger, and girls especially. She's setting some boundaries. Not very politely, but that's not a horrible crime. Adults are rude to children all the time - its likely the norm in her world that older means you get to be rude to younger. From her perspective, her behavior is totally reasonable.
>>When I yell down to her that she can't do that - she blantely says "I didn't see him"
***********
Of course she did! That's how rule-based thinking works: Don't Get Caught. Again, adults do that all the time. Ever been to traffic court?
>Now the whole time the mother is there?
Maybe she didn't see anything wrong with her dd standing up for herself against "an annoying little kid" or bossing a younger child. Maybe she expected you to advocate for your own child. Maybe she expected you to discipline hers if you weren't happy with the situation. I'm not saying I agree with any of those but all are typical parenting expectations. If you don't have prior agreements with other parents don't expect them to do what you would like them to do! If you want the mom to do something specific in that kind of situation in the future, you'll need to make some very specific agreements.
>>> my other instances that just grind me is when I ask her children to help with something and I get blatant no's!
****************
Why should they help you? For that matter, why should you ask? Chances are their parents don't do much actual asking. If your kids tend to be helpful, that's something about them. Its not something that can be generalized to other children.
>> And I think I could handle a no but when I literally get screamed at ??
************
If someone is screaming than either that person is at the end of his or her emotional rope or is so used to being disregarded that the only way to communicate is to *seem* to be at the end of that rope. If that's the case than it may be those kids don't get enough attention and care - like they're so used to being disrespected as human beings they have little repect to extend to anyone else.
It can help to think about how much time you can spend helping out when these kids are playing with yours. Set yourself up to be present and helpful. When you can't be present and helpful, it might be better if your kids do something else.
> I really don't like overstepping my boundries with parents! The parent and I have discussed things before and I've asked her if it bothered her when I spoke up to her kids etc.. and she said no but sometimes ??
**********************
I know people who expect other adults to discipline their kids. So I don't spend time with those kids without prior planning. If I can't set up a situation to minimize difficulties, then no play-date. I Don't try to discipline other children beyond sending them home.
I've also met people with high-energy or intense kids who don't really know what to do with those kids beyond "spank harder". Most of them don't know what to do - nothing seems to "work" with their kids (including spanking harder), so they hang back and watch to see if other parents have any ideas. Often it helps folks like that to meet just one other family with an intense child - its really hard to be surrounded by people with easy-going kids and have the One who breaks all the toys, knocks everyone down and scares people. That's not very helpful to you if don't have the skills to deal with those kids, either, but it can be a useful piece of perspective. Its not that the kids are "bad" so much that they are utterly lacking in the kinds of support they need - and maybe the parents are, too.
>>I say things sometimes to the child about not appreciating being yelled at -- but sometimes not sure if that's even right?
*********************
Its perfectly alright to articulate your own boundaries! But at the same time, you're dealing with someone with minimal skills, a different upbringing, and maybe high-intensity. So "don't do that" even said kindly, isn't going to be very effective. You need to offer alternatives and strategies. You need to parent that child through difficult moments - or you need to say "its time for you to go" and evict the child from your presence and that of your children.
Being proactive is important! Look for ways to set up better interactions between you and the other kids. That means looking for ways for you to be something other than what they expect adults to be - disciplinarians. You can't supervise, you need to be part of the fun, the facilitator of good stuff.
I'm re-reading your post and seeing you called this family friends of yours - that doesn't really change any of what I wrote other than giving you a basis for working out some strategies with the other family. If you haven't before, ask for a clear articulation of their rules and expectations so you have a clearer idea of what the kids expect. For instance, how do the parents handle kids being loud and rude to adults? If they think that's normal kid behavior then that's some really important information!
Its up to you to decide how to handle "rules" with which you disagree - as I said, I try to work around them by setting things up to avoid certain issues, but I also set rules of my own that the kids find "normal". The one real rule for visiting kids in my home is "no company upstairs" since that's the master bedroom and Mo's little annex of a room. That rule lets us be proactive about things Mo doesn't want to share and I don't want to handle fights over - all that goes upstairs. If there's an object of dispute and the dispute can't be settled, it goes upstairs. If Mo needs time to chill out - she's an introvert - then She goes upstairs (which is where she'd go naturally). Upstairs becomes the "safety zone" as it were.
Beyond that I try to help kids negotiate drama as best I can. That's more challenging with schooled kids with siblings because they're used to a complex dance of power and layers of force that Mo isn't, and I'm not either, any more. Really, we do much better with unschoolers when we can find them - they have better skills! They negotiate more, even the ones who also throw punches (and Mo will resort to throwing punches at times, too).
But I don't leave Mo alone with other kids until I'm comfortable with the way the kids communicate. That was true with Ray when he was younger, too. I'm not the "supervisor" though, I'm the audience, or part of the fun, or the facilitator, or the consultant.
---Meredith (Mo 8, Ray 16)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
rebecca de
thank you connie!! I'm getting it! like I said sometimes I just need some input -- I guess it's time to have a talk with the mom and I --hard thing is she doesn't like to "talk". Yeah we talk but she's the type to clam up with some things -- I will just have to evaluate how I open the topic ...
I didn't assume that my younger child could go -- i was going to ask him to come back and ask if he could go or just go for walk with him myself -- I did want the older kids to go by themselves without garrett -- I was even given a chance to open my mouth I had called to him to come back --he wasn't given a chance she just did anyway.. often this child like to be the 'parent' and even when I'm present -- i have asked for her before to allow me to "take care" of garrett... thank you (hopefully I didn't sound defensive there often when we write -- its all elusive)....
Rebecca De Hate
www.the-team.biz/mv978831
www.rebeccadehate.vpweb.com
________________________________
From: otherstar <otherstar@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Fri, June 11, 2010 5:06:51 PM
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] is it wrong for me to expect my friends children to be somewhat respectful?
From: becca
Sent: Friday, June 11, 2010 2:20 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] is it wrong for me to expect my friends children to be somewhat respectful?
there a reason that you continue to see these people? How old is this girl? Are we talking about a 5 or 6 year old or an 11 year old or somebody even older?
Connie
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I didn't assume that my younger child could go -- i was going to ask him to come back and ask if he could go or just go for walk with him myself -- I did want the older kids to go by themselves without garrett -- I was even given a chance to open my mouth I had called to him to come back --he wasn't given a chance she just did anyway.. often this child like to be the 'parent' and even when I'm present -- i have asked for her before to allow me to "take care" of garrett... thank you (hopefully I didn't sound defensive there often when we write -- its all elusive)....
Rebecca De Hate
www.the-team.biz/mv978831
www.rebeccadehate.vpweb.com
________________________________
From: otherstar <otherstar@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Fri, June 11, 2010 5:06:51 PM
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] is it wrong for me to expect my friends children to be somewhat respectful?
From: becca
Sent: Friday, June 11, 2010 2:20 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] is it wrong for me to expect my friends children to be somewhat respectful?
>>>>for instance: My 4 year old wants to join my other boy and friends 2 kids on a walk -- he want's to ride his bike so he's going to catch up with them and my friends daughter clearly does not want him to join them (she scream no you can't) and proceeds to stand in front of him when he is trying to go by and than when he trys to swerve around to miss her she steps yet again in front of him -- he falls and bashes his forehead and mouth -- just a scrap but it could have been worse and she also could have been heard.. When I yell down to her that she can't do that - she blantely says "I didn't see him" --- she did she was looking right at him and i watched the whole thing--- she runs off and pouts and I leave her alone .... Now the whole time the mother is there?<<<<Why is it the other mother's responsibility to step in? If you know that the bigger kids don't want to bugged by the four year old, why didn't you step in and ask your four year old to hang out with you instead? When my older kids tell the younger ones that they don't want them with them, I try to distract the younger ones so that they aren't bothering the older kids.
>>>Am I wrong for thinking the mom should have at least talked to her daughter about this ? I'm not asking her to discipline her or anything else but just acknowledge it maybe??<<<How should she acknowledge it? What exactly do you want her to say? Do you want her to apologize for her daughter's behavior? What is she supposed to say to her daughter? Is she supposed to tell her daughter that NO means YES. Her daughter told your son NO. She didn't want him hanging out with them yet your son persisted and you let him. Whenever I get in situations like this, I try to figure out what I could do differently to help diffuse the situation or prevent it from happening in the first place.
>>>my other instances that just grind me is when I ask her children to help with something and I get blatant no's! How can I refocus my frustration with this? And I think I could handle a no but when I literally get screamed at ?? I can understand if I was rude but when I just ask something simple -- sometimes just even asking a question -- not knowing the child is already upset I literally have gotten screamed at from the top of her lungs ! really it's hard enough to wrap my brain around my own children outburst and finding positive ways to redirect... <<<What kinds of things are you asking the children to do? What do you want them to help with? Do your children have the option of saying no? Are you with these kids all the time? It seems like there might be more to the story. If being around these kids is so stressful for you, why do you continue to do it? I recently had a situation where my niece's friend was coming over with her all the time. They are college students but he acts more like my 5 year old at times. He ate all of my husband's dinner after I had asked everyone to save enough for my husband. Even though I said it repeatedly, he claims that he didn't hear me. There were several other instances where he has "not heard" what I said or didn't pay attention to what was going on. In one instance, I announced that I was going to take a shower. He walked in on me and then acted all confused. I have told my niece that her friend can't come over for a while because I need to get some perspective. Is
there a reason that you continue to see these people? How old is this girl? Are we talking about a 5 or 6 year old or an 11 year old or somebody even older?
>>>I guess I wouldn't be as frustrated if the parent wasn't right there and nothing said??? I say things sometimes to the child about not appreciating being yelled at -- but sometimes not sure if that's even right?<<<<If a kid is treating me in ways that I don't like, I say something or I remove myself from the situation. Nobody has to be yelled at by a child or anybody else. What is the parent supposed to say or do? Is the parent supposed to reprimand the child for yelling at you? What type of relationship does the parent have with the child? Are they an unschooling family?
>>>I really don't like overstepping my boundries with parents! The parent and I have discussed things before and I've asked her if it bothered her when I spoke up to her kids etc.. and she said no but sometimes ??<<<What do you mean by "no but sometimes?" Sometimes it bugs her? Or, no, it doesn't bug her at all? If you can't get a straight answer from the mom and are continually treated like crap, I would re-evaluate the friendship.
>>>Mainly I guess I feel just frustrated by the blatent disrepect -- I was a mouthy stubborn, explosive child (and still am at times as an adult:) but I don't ever remember talking to my mom or dad friends that way!! am I being to old school??? <<<When people come to my house and treat me like crap, I call them on it. My niece came into my house one time and was spouting off a bunch of junk. I told her that I was not going to have her behave like that in my house. She got mad at me and left. Her mom was sitting right there. I didn't give her mom a chance to say anything. If her mom had gotten mad at me, I would have apologized and said that I don't like being yelled at or treated like crap by anyone.
Connie
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
plaidpanties666
--- In [email protected], rebecca de <rebeccadehate@...> wrote:
Speaking up and checking in with other parents is really important! Something that helps me is to realize we may not find a solution the first time - may not fine "a" solution at all, but just working on keeping communication channels open is often enough to diffuse those feelings of resentment when another parent doesn't do what you wish they would have done in the moment.
In the moment, the first time I run up against a problem, I often stand back a little and wait - which can look like me "letting" kids "get away with" whatever. Sometimes standing back turns out to be the best strategy in the moment! I've seen Mo work things out with kids when I was sure things were going to fall apart at any second. The other thing I try to keep in mind in the moment, when Mo's the "underdog" is to assume positive intent of the other child. That helps me keep from going into "Mama bear" mode, which sooooo isn't helpful! So I try to remember that kids are kids, with less skills, less experience, and sometimes faster, bigger emotions than adults. Me blowing up won't help any of those things.
That's frustrating - and I do know just how fast things can happen when kids get into it! Sometimes to take that deep breath when its all over and pick up the pieces.
An idea to consider for "next time" is to talk to the girl as though she was another adult. Call out her name and ask Her if she wants you to come get your 4yo - that might help her feel supported and less likely to be overbearing.
Another, more long-term solution is to find ways to connect with the girl, since you say she's like you in some ways ;) Can you have a "girls date" with her sometime? That might help her see you as more of an ally.
I remember you and you guys from Roan Mt! Morgan seemed to really enjoy hanging out in y'alls cabin and I sooooo appreciated you being okay with it (although I'd have been okay with you saying "yes, we're ready for her to go, now" too!). She made more friends and connections that trip than she ever has before - usually she finds one or two pals, but this time she sort of exploded into sociability (yeah, that was Mo exploding into sociability... don't laugh too hard).
---Meredith
>I guess I just have to speak up and share with her that this bothered me and maybe we can figure out what i should do next time.**************
Speaking up and checking in with other parents is really important! Something that helps me is to realize we may not find a solution the first time - may not fine "a" solution at all, but just working on keeping communication channels open is often enough to diffuse those feelings of resentment when another parent doesn't do what you wish they would have done in the moment.
In the moment, the first time I run up against a problem, I often stand back a little and wait - which can look like me "letting" kids "get away with" whatever. Sometimes standing back turns out to be the best strategy in the moment! I've seen Mo work things out with kids when I was sure things were going to fall apart at any second. The other thing I try to keep in mind in the moment, when Mo's the "underdog" is to assume positive intent of the other child. That helps me keep from going into "Mama bear" mode, which sooooo isn't helpful! So I try to remember that kids are kids, with less skills, less experience, and sometimes faster, bigger emotions than adults. Me blowing up won't help any of those things.
>>I was present when the bike accident happened and I was actually going to call garrett back to me and ask the others if he could go -- but this child often thinks she's the parent:) and she starts doing ?? before I even have a chance to correct or work through it...**************
That's frustrating - and I do know just how fast things can happen when kids get into it! Sometimes to take that deep breath when its all over and pick up the pieces.
An idea to consider for "next time" is to talk to the girl as though she was another adult. Call out her name and ask Her if she wants you to come get your 4yo - that might help her feel supported and less likely to be overbearing.
Another, more long-term solution is to find ways to connect with the girl, since you say she's like you in some ways ;) Can you have a "girls date" with her sometime? That might help her see you as more of an ally.
>>this child often thinks she's the parent:)That can be a personality thing - some kids just enjoy stepping into that role - but it can also be a result of a child feeling that adults aren't doing what they're "supposed to do" and taking on the job, themselves. If the family is transitioning away from more authoritarian parenting, or if the girl sees your parenting as "lax" compared to what she's used to, then its natural for her to take over. Talking to her about parenting is a good idea - and I see you've mentioned that in your reply to Connie's post. It can also help to talk about the fact that different families have different rules (or whatever language she's familiar with) so "taking care of" your kids isn't the same as taking care of her siblings.
I remember you and you guys from Roan Mt! Morgan seemed to really enjoy hanging out in y'alls cabin and I sooooo appreciated you being okay with it (although I'd have been okay with you saying "yes, we're ready for her to go, now" too!). She made more friends and connections that trip than she ever has before - usually she finds one or two pals, but this time she sort of exploded into sociability (yeah, that was Mo exploding into sociability... don't laugh too hard).
---Meredith
otherstar
From: rebecca de
Sent: Saturday, June 12, 2010 6:10 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] is it wrong for me to expect my friends children to be somewhat respectful?
How old is this girl? My almost 6 year old is very motherly and likes to mother the little ones even if I am standing right there. I try to stand back and let her be mothering unless her mothering is clearly bothering her little sisters. Then, I have to physically put myself into the situation because asking her to stop or telling her that her sister is annoyed just doesn't work. I do use my 6 year old's mothering tendencies to my advantage. I will have her help me with her little sisters while I am working. I am still right there but she is "in charge" of her little sisters. When my 17 month old wants to go outside, I let her big sister keep an eye on her. I find ways to encourage my older daughter to use those skills in a positive way rather than seeing it as her trying to usurp my role as the mom.
I don't know why I get this impression but it sounds almost as if you are in a power struggle with this little girl. She doesn't listen to you and tries to usurp your role as Garrett's mommy. She is just a little girl that wants to have some power in her life. Things got a whole lot better for me with my 6 year old when I let her have the power and quit focusing on the fact that I am the mom and it is my job to take care of the kids and it is the kid's job to do what they are told. In our house, we all take care of each other and we all have the option of saying no when we don't want to do something. We try to surround ourselves with people that fit into our world. If somebody doesn't fit, then we limit the amount of time we spend with them. When we do spend time with them, I try to accept them for who they are, which isn't always easy.
Connie
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sent: Saturday, June 12, 2010 6:10 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] is it wrong for me to expect my friends children to be somewhat respectful?
>>>I didn't assume that my younger child could go -- i was going to ask him to come back and ask if he could go or just go for walk with him myself -- I did want the older kids to go by themselves without garrett -- I was even given a chance to open my mouth I had called to him to come back --he wasn't given a chance she just did anyway.. often this child like to be the 'parent' and even when I'm present -- i have asked for her before to allow me to "take care" of garrett... thank you (hopefully I didn't sound defensive there often when we write -- its all elusive)....<<<I wasn't trying to put you on the defensive. : -) I was trying to ask questions and point out how the other mom or other child may have felt. I know how quick stuff can happen with kids.
How old is this girl? My almost 6 year old is very motherly and likes to mother the little ones even if I am standing right there. I try to stand back and let her be mothering unless her mothering is clearly bothering her little sisters. Then, I have to physically put myself into the situation because asking her to stop or telling her that her sister is annoyed just doesn't work. I do use my 6 year old's mothering tendencies to my advantage. I will have her help me with her little sisters while I am working. I am still right there but she is "in charge" of her little sisters. When my 17 month old wants to go outside, I let her big sister keep an eye on her. I find ways to encourage my older daughter to use those skills in a positive way rather than seeing it as her trying to usurp my role as the mom.
I don't know why I get this impression but it sounds almost as if you are in a power struggle with this little girl. She doesn't listen to you and tries to usurp your role as Garrett's mommy. She is just a little girl that wants to have some power in her life. Things got a whole lot better for me with my 6 year old when I let her have the power and quit focusing on the fact that I am the mom and it is my job to take care of the kids and it is the kid's job to do what they are told. In our house, we all take care of each other and we all have the option of saying no when we don't want to do something. We try to surround ourselves with people that fit into our world. If somebody doesn't fit, then we limit the amount of time we spend with them. When we do spend time with them, I try to accept them for who they are, which isn't always easy.
Connie
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
rebecca de
Meredith and all,
Now that i've been to a couple unschooling functions it's so nice to know who your 'talking' too! Mo was a delight to have in our cabin and I really liked that us parents could communicate if anything came up we may not understand about each others children -- it does seem that in mainstream --that sort of communication isn't available and everyone just grumbles under breath - which in some ways now I worry that this is how I came across with my post and I really hope not:)
my friend does mean the world to me and just having this input has redirected my thoughts!! I have to remember to think about perhaps how the children feel (not so good at this yet) I'm so glad I have a group to bounce thoughts too and get a direct hit back!!! thank you
Rebecca De Hate
www.the-team.biz/mv978831
www.rebeccadehate.vpweb.com
________________________________
From: plaidpanties666 <plaidpanties666@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Sat, June 12, 2010 9:58:25 AM
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: is it wrong for me to expect my friends children to be somewhat respectful?
Now that i've been to a couple unschooling functions it's so nice to know who your 'talking' too! Mo was a delight to have in our cabin and I really liked that us parents could communicate if anything came up we may not understand about each others children -- it does seem that in mainstream --that sort of communication isn't available and everyone just grumbles under breath - which in some ways now I worry that this is how I came across with my post and I really hope not:)
my friend does mean the world to me and just having this input has redirected my thoughts!! I have to remember to think about perhaps how the children feel (not so good at this yet) I'm so glad I have a group to bounce thoughts too and get a direct hit back!!! thank you
Rebecca De Hate
www.the-team.biz/mv978831
www.rebeccadehate.vpweb.com
________________________________
From: plaidpanties666 <plaidpanties666@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Sat, June 12, 2010 9:58:25 AM
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: is it wrong for me to expect my friends children to be somewhat respectful?
--- In [email protected], rebecca de <rebeccadehate@...> wrote:
>I guess I just have to speak up and share with her that this bothered me and maybe we can figure out what i should do next time.
**************
Speaking up and checking in with other parents is really important! Something that helps me is to realize we may not find a solution the first time - may not fine "a" solution at all, but just working on keeping communication channels open is often enough to diffuse those feelings of resentment when another parent doesn't do what you wish they would have done in the moment.
In the moment, the first time I run up against a problem, I often stand back a little and wait - which can look like me "letting" kids "get away with" whatever. Sometimes standing back turns out to be the best strategy in the moment! I've seen Mo work things out with kids when I was sure things were going to fall apart at any second. The other thing I try to keep in mind in the moment, when Mo's the "underdog" is to assume positive intent of the other child. That helps me keep from going into "Mama bear" mode, which sooooo isn't helpful! So I try to remember that kids are kids, with less skills, less experience, and sometimes faster, bigger emotions than adults. Me blowing up won't help any of those things.
>>I was present when the bike accident happened and I was actually going to call garrett back to me and ask the others if he could go -- but this child often thinks she's the parent:) and she starts doing ?? before I even have a chance to correct or work through it...
**************
That's frustrating - and I do know just how fast things can happen when kids get into it! Sometimes to take that deep breath when its all over and pick up the pieces.
An idea to consider for "next time" is to talk to the girl as though she was another adult. Call out her name and ask Her if she wants you to come get your 4yo - that might help her feel supported and less likely to be overbearing.
Another, more long-term solution is to find ways to connect with the girl, since you say she's like you in some ways ;) Can you have a "girls date" with her sometime? That might help her see you as more of an ally.
>>this child often thinks she's the parent:)
That can be a personality thing - some kids just enjoy stepping into that role - but it can also be a result of a child feeling that adults aren't doing what they're "supposed to do" and taking on the job, themselves. If the family is transitioning away from more authoritarian parenting, or if the girl sees your parenting as "lax" compared to what she's used to, then its natural for her to take over. Talking to her about parenting is a good idea - and I see you've mentioned that in your reply to Connie's post. It can also help to talk about the fact that different families have different rules (or whatever language she's familiar with) so "taking care of" your kids isn't the same as taking care of her siblings.
I remember you and you guys from Roan Mt! Morgan seemed to really enjoy hanging out in y'alls cabin and I sooooo appreciated you being okay with it (although I'd have been okay with you saying "yes, we're ready for her to go, now" too!). She made more friends and connections that trip than she ever has before - usually she finds one or two pals, but this time she sort of exploded into sociability (yeah, that was Mo exploding into sociability... don't laugh too hard).
---Meredith
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]