Is bribing always wrong?
Karen Swanay
I've written about my daughter before, her name is Morgan and she's going to
be 6 in August. She was adopted from China 2.5 yrs ago. She is coming
around though not as fast as everyone else (drs etc) think she should
because I won't put her into daycare or preschool and I won't use "language
therapy" with her. (Which is the human equivalent of the dog training NILIF
"Nothing In Life Is Free") They say to get her to speak she should be made
to make the attempt before being given things. So if she wants milk she has
to say "MMMMM" or something that is close because her word for milk right
now is "guck" and according to "the experts" this isn't good enough. And 2
yrs ago she didn't even have that.
She can follow 2 step directions "Get some socks and bring me your shoes"
kind of stuff most of the time so her receptive language is at an
appropriate level. Her expressive language is behind but I think she's
catching up fast and really, I'm not worried about her language...I worry
about her bonding and learning to trust us so it has always been more
important to me that she know that if she has a need or a want that we would
make it happen and that she could count on us. I figure she's had more than
enough adults she could not count on to last a life time.
The reason for my post is this...the kid doesn't seem to "get" affection.
Could be something she will come to understand in the fullness of time but
I'm worried she will not and her life as an adult will not be as full
because she doesn't understand love. Could be I'm over-thinking this...I
have a habit of that. But it is something I need to at least give
consideration to because her needs for affection and love went ignored or
worse yet, punished from 4 weeks old until 2.5. SO...to that end, if she
wants a cookie or something like that (a want not a need) I will sometimes
ask "can I give you a kiss?" and if she says no or ignores the request she
still gets the said item but most of the time she will offer her head and I
will kiss it twice (because she always wants two if she gets a kiss) and off
she goes. It doesn't cause tears and we certainly do not pressure her. But
the fact is, I'm bribing her and I don't feel altogether good about it.
She is likely on the Autism spectrum (hence needing two kisses even if she
didn't want one) and so that's another thing complicating things. I guess
I'd like to know some feedback on this since this isn't a child with normal
bonding experiences and I'm most concerned that she learn to bond and trust
because that will be the basis for her to have a happy life as an adult and
possibly a parent if she chooses to parent.
Thanks
Karen
"Correlation does not imply causation."
"If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a
nail." Abraham Maslow
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
be 6 in August. She was adopted from China 2.5 yrs ago. She is coming
around though not as fast as everyone else (drs etc) think she should
because I won't put her into daycare or preschool and I won't use "language
therapy" with her. (Which is the human equivalent of the dog training NILIF
"Nothing In Life Is Free") They say to get her to speak she should be made
to make the attempt before being given things. So if she wants milk she has
to say "MMMMM" or something that is close because her word for milk right
now is "guck" and according to "the experts" this isn't good enough. And 2
yrs ago she didn't even have that.
She can follow 2 step directions "Get some socks and bring me your shoes"
kind of stuff most of the time so her receptive language is at an
appropriate level. Her expressive language is behind but I think she's
catching up fast and really, I'm not worried about her language...I worry
about her bonding and learning to trust us so it has always been more
important to me that she know that if she has a need or a want that we would
make it happen and that she could count on us. I figure she's had more than
enough adults she could not count on to last a life time.
The reason for my post is this...the kid doesn't seem to "get" affection.
Could be something she will come to understand in the fullness of time but
I'm worried she will not and her life as an adult will not be as full
because she doesn't understand love. Could be I'm over-thinking this...I
have a habit of that. But it is something I need to at least give
consideration to because her needs for affection and love went ignored or
worse yet, punished from 4 weeks old until 2.5. SO...to that end, if she
wants a cookie or something like that (a want not a need) I will sometimes
ask "can I give you a kiss?" and if she says no or ignores the request she
still gets the said item but most of the time she will offer her head and I
will kiss it twice (because she always wants two if she gets a kiss) and off
she goes. It doesn't cause tears and we certainly do not pressure her. But
the fact is, I'm bribing her and I don't feel altogether good about it.
She is likely on the Autism spectrum (hence needing two kisses even if she
didn't want one) and so that's another thing complicating things. I guess
I'd like to know some feedback on this since this isn't a child with normal
bonding experiences and I'm most concerned that she learn to bond and trust
because that will be the basis for her to have a happy life as an adult and
possibly a parent if she chooses to parent.
Thanks
Karen
"Correlation does not imply causation."
"If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a
nail." Abraham Maslow
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Robin Rankin
I don't think that's bribing. You offer affection and she can accept or not accept and it does not change the outcome. Its just asking in a moment when you have her full attention.
Bribing would be if you said "I will give you a cookie if you let me kiss you". I don't think you are doing anything hurtfull or wrong.
Connected by MOTOBLUR™ on T-Mobile
-----Original message-----
From: Karen Swanay <luvbullbreeds@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tue, May 11, 2010 17:51:51 EDT
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Is bribing always wrong?
I've written about my daughter before, her name is Morgan and she's going to
be 6 in August. She was adopted from China 2.5 yrs ago. She is coming
around though not as fast as everyone else (drs etc) think she should
because I won't put her into daycare or preschool and I won't use "language
therapy" with her. (Which is the human equivalent of the dog training NILIF
"Nothing In Life Is Free") They say to get her to speak she should be made
to make the attempt before being given things. So if she wants milk she has
to say "MMMMM" or something that is close because her word for milk right
now is "guck" and according to "the experts" this isn't good enough. And 2
yrs ago she didn't even have that.
She can follow 2 step directions "Get some socks and bring me your shoes"
kind of stuff most of the time so her receptive language is at an
appropriate level. Her expressive language is behind but I think she's
catching up fast and really, I'm not worried about her language...I worry
about her bonding and learning to trust us so it has always been more
important to me that she know that if she has a need or a want that we would
make it happen and that she could count on us. I figure she's had more than
enough adults she could not count on to last a life time.
The reason for my post is this...the kid doesn't seem to "get" affection.
Could be something she will come to understand in the fullness of time but
I'm worried she will not and her life as an adult will not be as full
because she d
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Bribing would be if you said "I will give you a cookie if you let me kiss you". I don't think you are doing anything hurtfull or wrong.
Connected by MOTOBLUR™ on T-Mobile
-----Original message-----
From: Karen Swanay <luvbullbreeds@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tue, May 11, 2010 17:51:51 EDT
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Is bribing always wrong?
I've written about my daughter before, her name is Morgan and she's going to
be 6 in August. She was adopted from China 2.5 yrs ago. She is coming
around though not as fast as everyone else (drs etc) think she should
because I won't put her into daycare or preschool and I won't use "language
therapy" with her. (Which is the human equivalent of the dog training NILIF
"Nothing In Life Is Free") They say to get her to speak she should be made
to make the attempt before being given things. So if she wants milk she has
to say "MMMMM" or something that is close because her word for milk right
now is "guck" and according to "the experts" this isn't good enough. And 2
yrs ago she didn't even have that.
She can follow 2 step directions "Get some socks and bring me your shoes"
kind of stuff most of the time so her receptive language is at an
appropriate level. Her expressive language is behind but I think she's
catching up fast and really, I'm not worried about her language...I worry
about her bonding and learning to trust us so it has always been more
important to me that she know that if she has a need or a want that we would
make it happen and that she could count on us. I figure she's had more than
enough adults she could not count on to last a life time.
The reason for my post is this...the kid doesn't seem to "get" affection.
Could be something she will come to understand in the fullness of time but
I'm worried she will not and her life as an adult will not be as full
because she d
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Nicole Willoughby
I hope you don't mind me saying something about the language too. I have an autistic son who is 8 and says about 15 total words ...some of them more approximations than words. He is currently in school for 3 hours a day because of my health issues and his EXTREME hyperactivity I just have to have the help with him. At school he has speech therapy 3 times a week and daily interactions with other kids and it has done nothing to talk more. I think most of the time even when they really want to its truly the best they can do any forcing the issue causes more stress and makes matters WORSE.
I think you may want to check out www.taptotalk.com it is a system you can use on a nintendo ds or i phone or ipad or a computer. You can use their pictures and/or download your own . They press the picture and it speaks for them. They are more likely to try and say it themselves after hearing it many times ....when the time is right for them (not to much background noise, or itchy clothes bothering them , or tired, etc etc) and in the meantime its a tool available to help express what they want and get their needs met quickly creating more trust .
As far as the bribing I personaly honestly have mixed feeling on the issue. I don't see bribing as horribly wrong. I bribe my kids frequently when I loose my phone or keys or....and Im in a hurry and they are busy with something far more interesting then helping me find whatever object. I don't expect them to stop what they are doing to find my phone esp when I was the one that lost it but a few extra bucks is a good motivator and they get a bit extra in their piggy bank and I get my phone :)
I would not want to try to "train" my child to give or recieve affection through bribes or anything else. You may teach her to tolerate affection but it won't teach her to desire the affection nor enjoy the affection.
What are ways she shows her love to you? Look for those and enjoy them :)
My youngest daughter is a huggy girl. She walk walk up and hug stangers if she thinks they look like they need one and happily accepts hugs given to her. My oldest daughter has never been a huggy person and is more likely to show her love by shoving toast in my hand in the am as Im rushing to get myself and everyone else ready to go , or tossing sparring gear at me and challenging me to a duel lol...it doesnt look like affection to an outsider but it is her way of saying mom I love you and like hanging out just don't hug me and now that Im 10 Really don't ever hug me in public k? :)
IVe jabbered far to long but if you are still reading and want me to tell you about some basic floortime type things that I believe encouraged my son to show more affection let me know and I'll e-mail you.
Nicole
"I've seen the village, and I don't want it raising my child." - LC
I think you may want to check out www.taptotalk.com it is a system you can use on a nintendo ds or i phone or ipad or a computer. You can use their pictures and/or download your own . They press the picture and it speaks for them. They are more likely to try and say it themselves after hearing it many times ....when the time is right for them (not to much background noise, or itchy clothes bothering them , or tired, etc etc) and in the meantime its a tool available to help express what they want and get their needs met quickly creating more trust .
As far as the bribing I personaly honestly have mixed feeling on the issue. I don't see bribing as horribly wrong. I bribe my kids frequently when I loose my phone or keys or....and Im in a hurry and they are busy with something far more interesting then helping me find whatever object. I don't expect them to stop what they are doing to find my phone esp when I was the one that lost it but a few extra bucks is a good motivator and they get a bit extra in their piggy bank and I get my phone :)
I would not want to try to "train" my child to give or recieve affection through bribes or anything else. You may teach her to tolerate affection but it won't teach her to desire the affection nor enjoy the affection.
What are ways she shows her love to you? Look for those and enjoy them :)
My youngest daughter is a huggy girl. She walk walk up and hug stangers if she thinks they look like they need one and happily accepts hugs given to her. My oldest daughter has never been a huggy person and is more likely to show her love by shoving toast in my hand in the am as Im rushing to get myself and everyone else ready to go , or tossing sparring gear at me and challenging me to a duel lol...it doesnt look like affection to an outsider but it is her way of saying mom I love you and like hanging out just don't hug me and now that Im 10 Really don't ever hug me in public k? :)
IVe jabbered far to long but if you are still reading and want me to tell you about some basic floortime type things that I believe encouraged my son to show more affection let me know and I'll e-mail you.
Nicole
"I've seen the village, and I don't want it raising my child." - LC
--- On Tue, 5/11/10, Karen Swanay <luvbullbreeds@...> wrote:
From: Karen Swanay <luvbullbreeds@...>
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Is bribing always wrong?
To: [email protected]
Date: Tuesday, May 11, 2010, 4:51 PM
I've written about my daughter before, her name is Morgan and she's going to
be 6 in August. She was adopted from China 2.5 yrs ago. She is coming
around though not as fast as everyone else (drs etc) think she should
because I won't put her into daycare or preschool and I won't use "language
therapy" with her. (Which is the human equivalent of the dog training NILIF
"Nothing In Life Is Free") They say to get her to speak she should be made
to make the attempt before being given things. So if she wants milk she has
to say "MMMMM" or something that is close because her word for milk right
now is "guck" and according to "the experts" this isn't good enough. And 2
yrs ago she didn't even have that.
She can follow 2 step directions "Get some socks and bring me your shoes"
kind of stuff most of the time so her receptive language is at an
appropriate level. Her expressive language is behind but I think she's
catching up fast and really, I'm not worried about her language...I worry
about her bonding and learning to trust us so it has always been more
important to me that she know that if she has a need or a want that we would
make it happen and that she could count on us. I figure she's had more than
enough adults she could not count on to last a life time.
The reason for my post is this...the kid doesn't seem to "get" affection.
Could be something she will come to understand in the fullness of time but
I'm worried she will not and her life as an adult will not be as full
because she doesn't understand love. Could be I'm over-thinking this...I
have a habit of that. But it is something I need to at least give
consideration to because her needs for affection and love went ignored or
worse yet, punished from 4 weeks old until 2.5. SO...to that end, if she
wants a cookie or something like that (a want not a need) I will sometimes
ask "can I give you a kiss?" and if she says no or ignores the request she
still gets the said item but most of the time she will offer her head and I
will kiss it twice (because she always wants two if she gets a kiss) and off
she goes. It doesn't cause tears and we certainly do not pressure her. But
the fact is, I'm bribing her and I don't feel altogether good about it.
She is likely on the Autism spectrum (hence needing two kisses even if she
didn't want one) and so that's another thing complicating things. I guess
I'd like to know some feedback on this since this isn't a child with normal
bonding experiences and I'm most concerned that she learn to bond and trust
because that will be the basis for her to have a happy life as an adult and
possibly a parent if she chooses to parent.
Thanks
Karen
"Correlation does not imply causation."
"If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a
nail." Abraham Maslow
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
plaidpanties666
--- In [email protected], Nicole Willoughby <cncnawilloughby@...> wrote:
Right, in this sense "bribery" is really a way of acknowledging someone eles's needs as valuable and worth considering. Its an offer of compensation.
Sometimes bribery gets used in the sense of "rewarding" - as a behavior modification technique. Behavior modification disregards needs as unimportant, or less important.
That's really important! Especially with people for whom giving and receiving affection doesn't "look" like what is commonly expected. Mo doesn't often hug, rarely wants physical contact, and (as someone recently described her to me) only says exactly the number of words she's going to say. She doesn't "look" affectionate by conventional standards, and yet she is. She just expresses that differently. The few autistic kids I've met also show affection differently from the norm - and because I've been able to see that I've had some really wonderful interactions with autistic kids. They don't lack the human need for affection, its simply expressed differently.
That can be challenging if you're expecting affection to look a certain way. See little offers as big acts of affection - an offer to let you help, an offer to show you something of interest, an offer to spend time in your company. It can help to imagine your dd as "bigger on the inside than on the outside" - if she's letting you "in" at all, that's a big deal because it means she's taking the time and effort to look "out".
---Meredith (Mo 8, Ray 16)
> I don't see bribing as horribly wrong. I bribe my kids frequently when I loose my phone or keys or....and Im in a hurry and they are busy with something far more interesting then helping me find whatever object*************
Right, in this sense "bribery" is really a way of acknowledging someone eles's needs as valuable and worth considering. Its an offer of compensation.
Sometimes bribery gets used in the sense of "rewarding" - as a behavior modification technique. Behavior modification disregards needs as unimportant, or less important.
> I would not want to try to "train" my child to give or recieve affection through bribes or anything else. You may teach her to tolerate affection but it won't teach her to desire the affection nor enjoy the affection.*****************
That's really important! Especially with people for whom giving and receiving affection doesn't "look" like what is commonly expected. Mo doesn't often hug, rarely wants physical contact, and (as someone recently described her to me) only says exactly the number of words she's going to say. She doesn't "look" affectionate by conventional standards, and yet she is. She just expresses that differently. The few autistic kids I've met also show affection differently from the norm - and because I've been able to see that I've had some really wonderful interactions with autistic kids. They don't lack the human need for affection, its simply expressed differently.
> What are ways she shows her love to you? Look for those and enjoy them :)**********
That can be challenging if you're expecting affection to look a certain way. See little offers as big acts of affection - an offer to let you help, an offer to show you something of interest, an offer to spend time in your company. It can help to imagine your dd as "bigger on the inside than on the outside" - if she's letting you "in" at all, that's a big deal because it means she's taking the time and effort to look "out".
---Meredith (Mo 8, Ray 16)
KimWW
She was adopted from China 2.5 yrs ago. She is coming
Also, I agree with the other poster; what you are doing isn't really bribing.
> around though not as fast as everyone else (drs etc) think she shouldI cannot think of anything worse for getting her to relax than to put her in a situation that resembles what she had in the orphanage (I assume) in China. Being around children may or may not help her, just as it may or may not help "normal" children who don't speak much, but to place her in a room with 20 other children and 1 or two care-takers (who may or may not be good at what they do or even care one way or the other)...I just cannot think how that would possibly make Morgan's situation better. It is more likely to undo any progress you have made in the last few years.
> because I won't put her into daycare or preschool
Also, I agree with the other poster; what you are doing isn't really bribing.
Deb Lewis
*** So if she wants milk she has to say "MMMMM" or something that is close because her word for milk right now is "guck" ***
Ok, I don't see how saying the first sound of a word is more valuable than saying the last sound. <g> If she was writing a poem guck and milk would sound better together than MMMM and milk. I think her version is better.
***so it has always been more
important to me that she know that if she has a need or a want that we would
make it happen and that she could count on us. ***
Oh, if every mom thought that way about her children!
***But the fact is, I'm bribing her and I don't feel altogether good about it.***
I bribed Dylan when he was younger and we were taking my dad to radiation therapy. I told him if he could manage to go along with the early mornings and hour drive I'd make it worth his while. He was six and seven at that time. Making it worth his while meant making a cozy nest in the back seat of the car, getting the car nice and warm before taking off, letting him go in his pj's, packing along some favorite toys, stopping for breakfast and picking up his favorite treat on the way home. He remembers those times very fondly now, those days having breakfast with his grandpa.
What you describe seems harmless. You're not withholding food or trading food for favors. It seems more like a little family game more than anything else. You seem aware and tuned in to your kid so that if she stopped liking the game you'd stop playing.
My husband, who had no early life trauma to compare with your daughter's, was not a demonstrative person. He was unusual in his family. He would not hug. After we were married he changed a lot and will hug family members. My own family is not especially demonstrative, my siblings and I don't hug each other if we haven't been together in a long time. We trade some scathing insults, call each other names, eat, play, someone might punch someone else - affectionately, of course.<g> Dylan seems not to have a particular need for demonstrating affection, though he was a snuggly little kid and slept with us until he was seven. He still hugs me sometimes but generally would rather not touch people.<g> So, even if she rarely or never demonstrates affection she can have a happy life. Not demonstrating affection is not the same as not feeling affection.
Deb Lewis
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Ok, I don't see how saying the first sound of a word is more valuable than saying the last sound. <g> If she was writing a poem guck and milk would sound better together than MMMM and milk. I think her version is better.
***so it has always been more
important to me that she know that if she has a need or a want that we would
make it happen and that she could count on us. ***
Oh, if every mom thought that way about her children!
***But the fact is, I'm bribing her and I don't feel altogether good about it.***
I bribed Dylan when he was younger and we were taking my dad to radiation therapy. I told him if he could manage to go along with the early mornings and hour drive I'd make it worth his while. He was six and seven at that time. Making it worth his while meant making a cozy nest in the back seat of the car, getting the car nice and warm before taking off, letting him go in his pj's, packing along some favorite toys, stopping for breakfast and picking up his favorite treat on the way home. He remembers those times very fondly now, those days having breakfast with his grandpa.
What you describe seems harmless. You're not withholding food or trading food for favors. It seems more like a little family game more than anything else. You seem aware and tuned in to your kid so that if she stopped liking the game you'd stop playing.
My husband, who had no early life trauma to compare with your daughter's, was not a demonstrative person. He was unusual in his family. He would not hug. After we were married he changed a lot and will hug family members. My own family is not especially demonstrative, my siblings and I don't hug each other if we haven't been together in a long time. We trade some scathing insults, call each other names, eat, play, someone might punch someone else - affectionately, of course.<g> Dylan seems not to have a particular need for demonstrating affection, though he was a snuggly little kid and slept with us until he was seven. He still hugs me sometimes but generally would rather not touch people.<g> So, even if she rarely or never demonstrates affection she can have a happy life. Not demonstrating affection is not the same as not feeling affection.
Deb Lewis
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]