"misusing" furniture, and disagreements between parents
Tina Tarbutton
I'm not really sure how to handle this situation, and the way I tried to
handle it started a fairly large argument between my partner and I.
Draven (our 10 y/o son) used acrobatics over the arm of the couch to get
onto the couch and sit down. I personally don't see anything wrong with
that in our home, especially since the way I'm looking at things now means
that it's just as much his couch, as it is my couch, as it is
Parkers couch. Parker however had an issue with him doing things that way
and said, "Draven, that's now how we get onto the couch". He said sorry,
and the incident was over. However, in the back of my mind I couldn't help
feeling like really she shouldn't have told him he couldn't do that.
So I brought it up to her later when we were alone.
Her feelings were that it's not safe, we can't afford a new couch and this
one could get ripped that way, and it's not how a couch is meant to be used
and we need to respect our things.
My feelings were that he's a pretty good climber and probably wouldn't get
hurt, it probably won't rip and if it does it isn't like he meant to do it,
and it's just as much his thing as ours so who are we to tell him how to
treat it.
It started a pretty big argument about how now that I'm following this
"unschooling thing" her opinions don't seem to matter anymore and it rolled
down hill from there.
Her and I have worked out some of our differences over this, including that
she's going to take the time to read over the website and do some more
looking into it before judging it.
Is it possible to radically unschool when only one parent agrees with it
(therefore you've got one parent trusting and respecting the child, and one
parent only doing that some of the time), and how would you have handled the
couch incident?
Tina
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
handle it started a fairly large argument between my partner and I.
Draven (our 10 y/o son) used acrobatics over the arm of the couch to get
onto the couch and sit down. I personally don't see anything wrong with
that in our home, especially since the way I'm looking at things now means
that it's just as much his couch, as it is my couch, as it is
Parkers couch. Parker however had an issue with him doing things that way
and said, "Draven, that's now how we get onto the couch". He said sorry,
and the incident was over. However, in the back of my mind I couldn't help
feeling like really she shouldn't have told him he couldn't do that.
So I brought it up to her later when we were alone.
Her feelings were that it's not safe, we can't afford a new couch and this
one could get ripped that way, and it's not how a couch is meant to be used
and we need to respect our things.
My feelings were that he's a pretty good climber and probably wouldn't get
hurt, it probably won't rip and if it does it isn't like he meant to do it,
and it's just as much his thing as ours so who are we to tell him how to
treat it.
It started a pretty big argument about how now that I'm following this
"unschooling thing" her opinions don't seem to matter anymore and it rolled
down hill from there.
Her and I have worked out some of our differences over this, including that
she's going to take the time to read over the website and do some more
looking into it before judging it.
Is it possible to radically unschool when only one parent agrees with it
(therefore you've got one parent trusting and respecting the child, and one
parent only doing that some of the time), and how would you have handled the
couch incident?
Tina
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
theburkemommy
I think there's a time and place for doing acrobats and the household furniture isn't the right place. Just because we're unschooling doesn't mean the children get to do whatever they want whenever they want without regard for anything else.
It sounds like Parker wasn't harsh with Draven, and I think it's a perfectly valid request for everyone in the home to respect the property/furniture.
It sounds like Parker wasn't harsh with Draven, and I think it's a perfectly valid request for everyone in the home to respect the property/furniture.
--- In [email protected], Tina Tarbutton <tina.tarbutton@...> wrote:
>
> I'm not really sure how to handle this situation, and the way I tried to
> handle it started a fairly large argument between my partner and I.
>
> Draven (our 10 y/o son) used acrobatics over the arm of the couch to get
> onto the couch and sit down. I personally don't see anything wrong with
> that in our home, especially since the way I'm looking at things now means
> that it's just as much his couch, as it is my couch, as it is
> Parkers couch. Parker however had an issue with him doing things that way
> and said, "Draven, that's now how we get onto the couch". He said sorry,
> and the incident was over. However, in the back of my mind I couldn't help
> feeling like really she shouldn't have told him he couldn't do that.
>
> So I brought it up to her later when we were alone.
>
> Her feelings were that it's not safe, we can't afford a new couch and this
> one could get ripped that way, and it's not how a couch is meant to be used
> and we need to respect our things.
>
> My feelings were that he's a pretty good climber and probably wouldn't get
> hurt, it probably won't rip and if it does it isn't like he meant to do it,
> and it's just as much his thing as ours so who are we to tell him how to
> treat it.
>
> It started a pretty big argument about how now that I'm following this
> "unschooling thing" her opinions don't seem to matter anymore and it rolled
> down hill from there.
>
> Her and I have worked out some of our differences over this, including that
> she's going to take the time to read over the website and do some more
> looking into it before judging it.
>
> Is it possible to radically unschool when only one parent agrees with it
> (therefore you've got one parent trusting and respecting the child, and one
> parent only doing that some of the time), and how would you have handled the
> couch incident?
>
> Tina
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Schuyler
Furniture can often feel like a big ticket item. It's probably better to respect your partner's wishes than to go head to head over something that she feels is worth saving. If, however, the couch does get damaged, there are ways to find cheap couches. We have a free one that someone up the road was off-loading, a local auction house often has couches go for fairly little money, Craig's list and charity shops (thrift stores) have relatively low cost furniture for sale or even for free. Garage sales or car boot sales can be great sources of cheap secondhand furniture.
It helps, a lot, to have both parents on board for unschooling to work well. Not so much because consistency of vision is important from a child's perspective, but because one parent can feel very left out and estranged from their relationship with the other people in their family if they aren't really understanding the nature of the new approach. She spoke of wanting Draven to respect things, to work to keep them nice. She's looking out for him, she's wanting to help him become a sensible young man. This crazy unschooling thing could feel like a denial of all that she understands about parenting. Go slow and be patient. Help her keep the things she needs to be kept safe from this crazy new understanding of education and childhood safe. And print out things to put where she'll read them that seem helpful or things that will maybe help her to get on board, sandradodd.com is fantastic for that as is joyfullyrejoycing.com.
Work to make this easy for her. And, if she never comes quite as far around as you hope she will, recognize that her relationship with Draven is her relationship with Draven and not about you.
Schuyler
________________________________
Is it possible to radically unschool when only one parent agrees with it
(therefore you've got one parent trusting and respecting the child, and one
parent only doing that some of the time), and how would you have handled the
couch incident?
Tina
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
It helps, a lot, to have both parents on board for unschooling to work well. Not so much because consistency of vision is important from a child's perspective, but because one parent can feel very left out and estranged from their relationship with the other people in their family if they aren't really understanding the nature of the new approach. She spoke of wanting Draven to respect things, to work to keep them nice. She's looking out for him, she's wanting to help him become a sensible young man. This crazy unschooling thing could feel like a denial of all that she understands about parenting. Go slow and be patient. Help her keep the things she needs to be kept safe from this crazy new understanding of education and childhood safe. And print out things to put where she'll read them that seem helpful or things that will maybe help her to get on board, sandradodd.com is fantastic for that as is joyfullyrejoycing.com.
Work to make this easy for her. And, if she never comes quite as far around as you hope she will, recognize that her relationship with Draven is her relationship with Draven and not about you.
Schuyler
________________________________
Is it possible to radically unschool when only one parent agrees with it
(therefore you've got one parent trusting and respecting the child, and one
parent only doing that some of the time), and how would you have handled the
couch incident?
Tina
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce Fetteroll
On Mar 28, 2010, at 8:20 PM, Tina Tarbutton wrote:
belongs to the parents belongs to the kids" idea is not an aspect of
radical unschooling.
Do, yes, question your nos. See the goal as being your child's
partner rather than every want being an instant yes. It might help to
think of treating him as a guest rather than handing him a full
partnership in the house. Even guests will run into times when the
host will say "Wait, let's do it this way instead."
If he were 5 and a high energy kid in an apartment where outdoor play
and indoor trampolines couldn't meet all his needs and he really
needed to bounce off the walls and the furniture, it would remove a
*huge* source of tension in the home for the parents to see their
child's need to expend energy as way more important than the
furniture. (Some out of the conventional box solutions are: putting
the good stuff in storage or in an out of the way room, getting used
furniture, recognizing that under even normal wear and tear by the
time the kids move out the furniture will be tired looking.)
Finding ways to say yes is not the same as handing the furniture to
the kids as though it were theirs. The amount of leeway may end up
looking the same, but the parents are *choosing* to allow the kids
greater latitude with the furniture than most parents would. That's
not the same as anything goes.
But the idea of "everything that's mine is yours" won't do you or him
any favors! We all have personal boundaries. The more of those that
are rethought, the fewer times you need to say no, the less tension
in the atmosphere. But doing away with all personal boundaries will
create a different type of tension born of self sacrifice.
Instead of yes to everything he does and asks for, partner with him
to find better (kinder, safer, less expensive, etc.) solutions to
meet the underlying need. Finding solutions that work around
limitations is a great skill for him to see you putting into action.
But from what you relayed, it sounded like he was fine with not
vaulting over the arm of the couch.
If a parent shuts a door (eg, access to part of the world) and a
child keeps opening it, it helps to rethink how important it is to
keep that door closed or if there might be a different door that
would meet the need just as well or find a way to make the original
door useable. But if there are few shut doors and a kid is fine with
the few that are shut it's not worth finding ways to open them,
especially not starting an argument with a partner over it.
If you would like her to try out this new way, you need to not make
it unpleasant! You're upheaving her world. Try to be even sweeter and
more thoughtful to her than you normally would to show your
appreciation. Every time you think of forcing an issue, picture her
dragging you -- with the hopes of convincing you to join -- to a
church you never had an interest in exploring. That's probably what
it's feeling like to her.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> the way I'm looking at things now meansYou could choose to look at it like that, but an "everything that
> that it's just as much his couch, as it is my couch, as it is
> Parkers couch.
belongs to the parents belongs to the kids" idea is not an aspect of
radical unschooling.
Do, yes, question your nos. See the goal as being your child's
partner rather than every want being an instant yes. It might help to
think of treating him as a guest rather than handing him a full
partnership in the house. Even guests will run into times when the
host will say "Wait, let's do it this way instead."
If he were 5 and a high energy kid in an apartment where outdoor play
and indoor trampolines couldn't meet all his needs and he really
needed to bounce off the walls and the furniture, it would remove a
*huge* source of tension in the home for the parents to see their
child's need to expend energy as way more important than the
furniture. (Some out of the conventional box solutions are: putting
the good stuff in storage or in an out of the way room, getting used
furniture, recognizing that under even normal wear and tear by the
time the kids move out the furniture will be tired looking.)
Finding ways to say yes is not the same as handing the furniture to
the kids as though it were theirs. The amount of leeway may end up
looking the same, but the parents are *choosing* to allow the kids
greater latitude with the furniture than most parents would. That's
not the same as anything goes.
But the idea of "everything that's mine is yours" won't do you or him
any favors! We all have personal boundaries. The more of those that
are rethought, the fewer times you need to say no, the less tension
in the atmosphere. But doing away with all personal boundaries will
create a different type of tension born of self sacrifice.
Instead of yes to everything he does and asks for, partner with him
to find better (kinder, safer, less expensive, etc.) solutions to
meet the underlying need. Finding solutions that work around
limitations is a great skill for him to see you putting into action.
But from what you relayed, it sounded like he was fine with not
vaulting over the arm of the couch.
If a parent shuts a door (eg, access to part of the world) and a
child keeps opening it, it helps to rethink how important it is to
keep that door closed or if there might be a different door that
would meet the need just as well or find a way to make the original
door useable. But if there are few shut doors and a kid is fine with
the few that are shut it's not worth finding ways to open them,
especially not starting an argument with a partner over it.
If you would like her to try out this new way, you need to not make
it unpleasant! You're upheaving her world. Try to be even sweeter and
more thoughtful to her than you normally would to show your
appreciation. Every time you think of forcing an issue, picture her
dragging you -- with the hopes of convincing you to join -- to a
church you never had an interest in exploring. That's probably what
it's feeling like to her.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Faith Void
I don't think that talking to your partner about the incident was wrong. I
am thinking that you seem to be pushing your agenda on her and she is
feeling uncomfortable. There are other ways that you may be able to help her
shift perspectives towards generosity and kindness and respect for your son
(though it doesn't sound like she is not these). Keep reading and finding
things that work for you. remember to treat her with respect, kindness and
generosity as well.
To our family unschooling is a partnership with our children in a sense that
we work with them to get their needs met. In doing so we facilitate the
adults getting their needs met as well. You partner is concerned for the
couch. It sounds like she was respectful to Draven in asking him not to use
the couch as a playground. It seems like he was ok with that. Does he have
plenty of outlets for his energy? If not that perhaps reassessing that might
be in order.
Faith
am thinking that you seem to be pushing your agenda on her and she is
feeling uncomfortable. There are other ways that you may be able to help her
shift perspectives towards generosity and kindness and respect for your son
(though it doesn't sound like she is not these). Keep reading and finding
things that work for you. remember to treat her with respect, kindness and
generosity as well.
To our family unschooling is a partnership with our children in a sense that
we work with them to get their needs met. In doing so we facilitate the
adults getting their needs met as well. You partner is concerned for the
couch. It sounds like she was respectful to Draven in asking him not to use
the couch as a playground. It seems like he was ok with that. Does he have
plenty of outlets for his energy? If not that perhaps reassessing that might
be in order.
Faith
On Sun, Mar 28, 2010 at 8:20 PM, Tina Tarbutton <tina.tarbutton@...>wrote:
>
>
>
> Is it possible to radically unschool when only one parent agrees with it
> (therefore you've got one parent trusting and respecting the child, and one
> parent only doing that some of the time), and how would you have handled
> the
> couch incident?
>
> Tina
>
>
--
www.bearthmama.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
otherstar
>>>>It started a pretty big argument about how now that I'm following this"unschooling thing" her opinions don't seem to matter anymore and it rolled
down hill from there.<<<<<
It sounds like you are embracing unschooling to the detriment of your relationship with your partner. We have always more or less unschooled but I didn't do it deliberately until recently. When I found actual literature to back up what I thought, I went a little too far because I wanted everyone to have the same feelings and thoughts that I did. I didn't realize that I was contradicting myself by not meeting the other adults in my life where they were at that time. : -)
>>>>Her and I have worked out some of our differences over this, including thatshe's going to take the time to read over the website and do some more
looking into it before judging it.<<<<
I find that I tend to be most judgmental when I am dragged into something kicking and screaming. Perhaps you can back off a little and give her more time. It is really hard for somebody to not only accept unschooling but completely embrace it in a short time. It has taken me an entire lifetime to get where I am now. Expecting your partner to slam on the breaks and veer off into the ditch might be hard for her.
>>>>>Is it possible to radically unschool when only one parent agrees with it(therefore you've got one parent trusting and respecting the child, and one
parent only doing that some of the time), and how would you have handled the
couch incident?<<<<<<
Yes, it is possible but that makes more work for you because you have to accept everyone where they are at (even the adults).
While I was transitioning to intentionally unschooling, I would have told my partner to lighten up and would have given him a lecture about respecting the kids, blah, blah, blah. Of course, that made him hate the idea of unschooling because he saw it as a "me or them" type of thing where he and the kids were pitted against each other. If I sent him information, it made it hard for him to read it with an open mind. I had inadvertently made things worse by trying to make things better.
Now, I would simply ask the kids to stop because it really bugs their dad. I try to make a conscious effort to respect my partner's differences. When I backed off and let him be himself, it was much easier for him to transition to intentionally unschooling. Something else that I will do is help my partner explain things to the kids. There have been times that he will automatically say no to the kids or will tell them not to do something and I will just say "Why?" It's funny because he will either tell us why the answer is no or he will say, "I don't know" and then recant his no. Of course, I have to make sure that there is room for him to say, "I don't know. I am just not comfortable with it." If that is the case, then I try to respect that and help communicate that to the kids. We all have boundaries and things that we are not comfortable with for various reasons. I try to help my kids understand my partner's perspective and try to help my kids understand their dad's perspective. It's not always easy though.
Connie
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
plaidpanties666
--- In [email protected], Joyce Fetteroll <jfetteroll@...> wrote:
We have a trampoline and swings, but neither are very much fun in the rain and we've had an especially wet winter, here. Mo's been inside more than usual and needing to find more indoor ways to work off a little energy. So she's been doing a lot of acrobatic type things on the big bed - a futon, really, on top of another futon on a platform so its not as tall as a bed. Its been somewhat of a hassle, since this periodically sets the futon askew and it has to be wrestled back into place. It took me awhile to get in the habit of remembering to do that Before I was ready to go to sleep! Anyway, now that its warmed up and stopped raining so much, I've asked her to please do her tricks on the trampoline, and I explained about the futon being a hassle. She's happy to use the trampoline for her fun, now that its not wet all the time.
---Meredith (Mo 8, Ray 16)
>> If he were 5 and a high energy kid in an apartment where outdoor playHere's a real life example from my house:
> and indoor trampolines couldn't meet all his needs and he really
> needed to bounce off the walls and the furniture, it would remove a
> *huge* source of tension in the home for the parents to see their
> child's need to expend energy as way more important than the
> furniture.
We have a trampoline and swings, but neither are very much fun in the rain and we've had an especially wet winter, here. Mo's been inside more than usual and needing to find more indoor ways to work off a little energy. So she's been doing a lot of acrobatic type things on the big bed - a futon, really, on top of another futon on a platform so its not as tall as a bed. Its been somewhat of a hassle, since this periodically sets the futon askew and it has to be wrestled back into place. It took me awhile to get in the habit of remembering to do that Before I was ready to go to sleep! Anyway, now that its warmed up and stopped raining so much, I've asked her to please do her tricks on the trampoline, and I explained about the futon being a hassle. She's happy to use the trampoline for her fun, now that its not wet all the time.
---Meredith (Mo 8, Ray 16)
Kathryn
--- In [email protected], "otherstar" <otherstar@...> wrote:
==We have always more or less unschooled but I didn't do it deliberately until recently. When I found actual literature to back up what I thought, I went a little too far because I wanted everyone to have the same feelings and thoughts that I did. I didn't realize that I was contradicting myself by not meeting the other adults in my life where they were at that time. : -)==
Like looking into a mirror!
==Yes, it is possible but that makes more work for you because you have to accept everyone where they are at (even the adults).==
Thank You for saying this.
== Now, I would simply ask the kids to stop because it really bugs their dad. ==
This is So True, because it illustrates to the kiddies that You are tolerant, understanding and accepting of others' differences. Modelling respectful behaviour to others (especially those that we love!) is paramount. I remember when I was young, I was well aware that my Dad showed a friendly side to friends/strangers, and the family got the complete opposite behind closed doors. My Mum would say, "you don't air your dirty clothes outside the family home for all to see." It was a Horrible 'lesson' to a child that only immediate family suffer shitty moods of parents/siblings; because they are family. I didn't get it then, just as I don't get it now. So - the ones that we love and care for receive the blows (moods) of our hard days, whilst strangers get a smile? That was probably my initial drive to unschooling my kids.
== There have been times that he will automatically say no to the kids or will tell them not to do something and I will just say "Why?" ==
Unfortunately, when I respond similarly, my partner sees my response(s) as undermining his 'authority'. He feels that I should back him up and stand by him regardless. This, I struggle with. This is where arguements occur in my home.
Appreciate the discussion.
KathrynD
x
Debra Rossing
Something important in all of this is to remember that, as we're moving
toward/learning to treat the kids with respect and partnership, we need
to also remember to treat our partner with respect and partnership.
Sometimes that gets lost "because s/he's an adult, s/he should
understand this". The respectful partnership needs to apply globally,
not just with the kids.
A current example at our house: DS is "migratory" in that he prefers to
sleep in his room during the winter but downstairs in the spring/summer.
However, he also has a tendency to flip his sleep schedule around. That
means he's asleep during the day. Sleeping in the living room during the
day puts a crimp on the things DH is comfortable doing (not wanting to
wake DS). I could just tell DH to suck it up for the next 4 to 6 months
until DS starts migrating back upstairs but that would not be meeting
DH's needs to be able to do the things he does during the day (grinding
wheat to make baked goods - I think today he's making bagels! - or
washing dishes, playing on the PS3 in the living room etc). I could just
tell DS that he has a bed and a bedroom (decorated to his
specifications) and that's all there is to it. That wouldn't be meeting
DS' needs to feel comfortable and able to sleep AND do all the other
stuff he does when awake. We do (fortunately, I know not everyone has a
lot of options in this kind of situation) have a guest room adjacent to
the living room - it's already got a nice bed, we fixed it up so MIL can
spend the night on occasion if she chooses (long story). And, it's right
where the cable and the network router are so the Internet connection is
really good there (his bedroom is about as far from there as our house
allows). But, there's no TV (he often likes to use familiar DVDs to fall
asleep). So, I asked DS if he was okay with giving me some time to
ponder the situation - he was. I thought, discussed with DH (to figure
out logistical issues like setting up the cable TV), and last night we
sat down and drew up a plan of action - some stuff can happen within the
next week or so (like getting a wall mount for the TV and bringing his
TV downstairs), other stuff is going to take longer (clearing out some
of the stuff that's gotten stored in there). But, he can move down there
within the next week. DH gets the living room area free during the day,
DS gets to be downstairs, the guest room has a door that can be closed
for DS' privacy and to minimize sound disturbances. It's not totally
perfect - we've already mentioned to DS that on the odd occasion where
we have an overnight guest, we'd prefer for him to use his upstairs room
and he's okay with that (it's maybe twice a year). Everyone felt heard
and respected BUT it wasn't an immediate Yes, right away, no problem.
Sometimes it's okay and even necessary to say "Can you give me a
minute/hour/day to think about that? I've got some ideas that might work
but I need to figure out the best plan. I want to talk to <partner>
about it too to make sure I don't miss a good option." And make sure you
do touch base again in that time frame with options or a request for
more time "hey, I am working on a plan but I need another day or two to
get some information. Let's plan to discuss this on Friday." Obviously,
in some circumstances the answer needs to be now (the ice cream truck is
outside and won't be there more than 10 minutes). Over time, however,
habits of thought will develop in all parties that will make quicker
answers possible - the knee jerk No will dissipate and the attitude of
"how can we make this happen?" will become the main operating idea. And,
all parties will build a reservoir of trust that mom/dad/partner/child
are trying to assist in reaching the goal rather than putting up road
blocks. That can take time if there's a history of No to be dealt with.
Deb R
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
toward/learning to treat the kids with respect and partnership, we need
to also remember to treat our partner with respect and partnership.
Sometimes that gets lost "because s/he's an adult, s/he should
understand this". The respectful partnership needs to apply globally,
not just with the kids.
A current example at our house: DS is "migratory" in that he prefers to
sleep in his room during the winter but downstairs in the spring/summer.
However, he also has a tendency to flip his sleep schedule around. That
means he's asleep during the day. Sleeping in the living room during the
day puts a crimp on the things DH is comfortable doing (not wanting to
wake DS). I could just tell DH to suck it up for the next 4 to 6 months
until DS starts migrating back upstairs but that would not be meeting
DH's needs to be able to do the things he does during the day (grinding
wheat to make baked goods - I think today he's making bagels! - or
washing dishes, playing on the PS3 in the living room etc). I could just
tell DS that he has a bed and a bedroom (decorated to his
specifications) and that's all there is to it. That wouldn't be meeting
DS' needs to feel comfortable and able to sleep AND do all the other
stuff he does when awake. We do (fortunately, I know not everyone has a
lot of options in this kind of situation) have a guest room adjacent to
the living room - it's already got a nice bed, we fixed it up so MIL can
spend the night on occasion if she chooses (long story). And, it's right
where the cable and the network router are so the Internet connection is
really good there (his bedroom is about as far from there as our house
allows). But, there's no TV (he often likes to use familiar DVDs to fall
asleep). So, I asked DS if he was okay with giving me some time to
ponder the situation - he was. I thought, discussed with DH (to figure
out logistical issues like setting up the cable TV), and last night we
sat down and drew up a plan of action - some stuff can happen within the
next week or so (like getting a wall mount for the TV and bringing his
TV downstairs), other stuff is going to take longer (clearing out some
of the stuff that's gotten stored in there). But, he can move down there
within the next week. DH gets the living room area free during the day,
DS gets to be downstairs, the guest room has a door that can be closed
for DS' privacy and to minimize sound disturbances. It's not totally
perfect - we've already mentioned to DS that on the odd occasion where
we have an overnight guest, we'd prefer for him to use his upstairs room
and he's okay with that (it's maybe twice a year). Everyone felt heard
and respected BUT it wasn't an immediate Yes, right away, no problem.
Sometimes it's okay and even necessary to say "Can you give me a
minute/hour/day to think about that? I've got some ideas that might work
but I need to figure out the best plan. I want to talk to <partner>
about it too to make sure I don't miss a good option." And make sure you
do touch base again in that time frame with options or a request for
more time "hey, I am working on a plan but I need another day or two to
get some information. Let's plan to discuss this on Friday." Obviously,
in some circumstances the answer needs to be now (the ice cream truck is
outside and won't be there more than 10 minutes). Over time, however,
habits of thought will develop in all parties that will make quicker
answers possible - the knee jerk No will dissipate and the attitude of
"how can we make this happen?" will become the main operating idea. And,
all parties will build a reservoir of trust that mom/dad/partner/child
are trying to assist in reaching the goal rather than putting up road
blocks. That can take time if there's a history of No to be dealt with.
Deb R
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[email protected]
This seems like a key bit to me. Learning not to be arbitrary.
There are times when the answer is "no" but there should be a good reason.
I think it's hard to see that we are being arbitrary sometimes. Pausing before answering helps, for me. My gut reaction might be "NOOOOOOO" but then I pause and think about why and sometimes the answer is still no, but a lot of times the answer is yes.
Nance
************
. . . Something else that I will do is help my partner
explain things to the kids. There have been times that he will automatically say
no to the kids or will tell them not to do something and I will just say "Why?"
It's funny because he will either tell us why the answer is no or he will say,
"I don't know" and then recant his no. Of course, I have to make sure that there
is room for him to say, "I don't know. I am just not comfortable with it." If
that is the case, then I try to respect that and help communicate that to the
kids. We all have boundaries and things that we are not comfortable with for
various reasons. I try to help my kids understand my partner's perspective and
try to help my kids understand their dad's perspective. It's not always easy
though.
Connie
There are times when the answer is "no" but there should be a good reason.
I think it's hard to see that we are being arbitrary sometimes. Pausing before answering helps, for me. My gut reaction might be "NOOOOOOO" but then I pause and think about why and sometimes the answer is still no, but a lot of times the answer is yes.
Nance
************
. . . Something else that I will do is help my partner
explain things to the kids. There have been times that he will automatically say
no to the kids or will tell them not to do something and I will just say "Why?"
It's funny because he will either tell us why the answer is no or he will say,
"I don't know" and then recant his no. Of course, I have to make sure that there
is room for him to say, "I don't know. I am just not comfortable with it." If
that is the case, then I try to respect that and help communicate that to the
kids. We all have boundaries and things that we are not comfortable with for
various reasons. I try to help my kids understand my partner's perspective and
try to help my kids understand their dad's perspective. It's not always easy
though.
Connie
otherstar
>>>>>== There have been times that he will automatically say no to the kids or will tell them not to do something and I will just say "Why?" ==Unfortunately, when I respond similarly, my partner sees my response(s) as undermining his 'authority'. He feels that I should back him up and stand by him regardless. This, I struggle with. This is where arguements occur in my home.<<<<<
I should have clarified that my ability to ask "Why" didn't come automatically. It was something that we transitioned to AFTER I regained my partner's trust. All of the times that I contradicted him in front of the kids eroded his self confidence and chipped away at his ability to be a parent. My partner felt like the little kid that had a teacher standing over his shoulder correcting every little mistake. I had to realize that my attempts to micro-manage my partner's interactions with the kids was undermining everything that is unschooling.
My being able to ask "Why" was something that we worked up to after I spent time affirming that it was okay for him to have boundaries and it was okay for him to give guidance to our children. I had to back off. In all of our discussions about how to move away from arbitrary limits, I told him that I always ask myself why when I find myself saying no. He said he had a hard time doing that because "NO" is such a knee-jerk reaction for him. Having lived with his mother, I completely understand that. My openly asking him "Why" in front of the children was a result of the two of us problem solving together to find ways to meet everyone's needs. It started out as me asking why after the fact when we were alone. In front of the kids, I had his back so to speak. I had to learn to bite my tongue on a lot of things for a while in order to regain his trust and help him build up his own confidence. Yes, there were times that I completely disagreed with him but didn't say anything in the moment. As time went on and he was more comfortable in his role as a parent, he became more comfortable with discussing our different approaches to parenting. He saw first hand how the kids respond to him versus how they respond to me. He saw first hand that the kids prefer to come to me for everything. He asked why they preferred me over him. We had TONS of discussions. I tried to listen to him and try to support him just as I had been doing with the kids. My efforts to support him eventually transitioned to me being able to ask "why" in the moment with the children present.
We have come a long way because now the kids are comfortable with asking my partner "why" and he is open to listening to them when they disagree with us. This stuff doesn't happen over night. It is all very gradual and it takes time. It takes deliberate effort on my part and it isn't always easy. Now, we have a house where everyone is free to ask "why". I have been asked "why" my fair share of times. It has been great to help me be more deliberate and thoughtful. The other benefit is that I don't have to be the know it all and I don't have to give everybody else all the answers. I let everyone find their own comfort zone even if I don't always agree with it.
Connie
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Krisula Moyer
>>>This seems like a key bit to me. Learning not to be arbitrary.There are times when the answer is "no" but there should be a good reason. <<<
Before I came to unschooling I had this very bad habit of saying "No" first to anything that I wasn't sure about and *then* trying to make it a yes. The initial "no" was coming from a desire to not get the hopes of the kids up in case I couldn't deliver on the yes. Then I'd think about it and change it to a yes if I could. It really helped a great deal to change that habit to saying "hmm, let me think about that for a minute." Instead of an immediate and wishy washy "no".
Krisula Moyer
The Seer, the novel
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gemlily14
Hi,
new to the concept of unschooling but seems have been raising my kids along similar principles through trial and error, I just didn't have a words for it.
I use the 'let me think about it a minute' alot too, from when my kids started to talk I didn't want them to be one of those toddlers whose one of their first words is 'no' and becomes one of the only ways they express themselves.
Even with little ones we discuss situations and I try to keep things positive rather than focus on negative aspects. so one of my favourites is 'in our family we like to.... look after each other etc. It also as a side issue has prepared them for the fact that other families and groups of people may operate differently. They actually are pretty grounded and cope very well in situations that are markedly different from ours, sometimes to my utter surprise and delight.
It all has taught them a really good respect for other people and they are quite fasinated with the difference.
will continue learning and reading, everyone's experiences are very helpful so thanks.
I did have one query, a couple of people have mentioned radical unschooling what is the difference with 'normal' unschooling?
gem
new to the concept of unschooling but seems have been raising my kids along similar principles through trial and error, I just didn't have a words for it.
I use the 'let me think about it a minute' alot too, from when my kids started to talk I didn't want them to be one of those toddlers whose one of their first words is 'no' and becomes one of the only ways they express themselves.
Even with little ones we discuss situations and I try to keep things positive rather than focus on negative aspects. so one of my favourites is 'in our family we like to.... look after each other etc. It also as a side issue has prepared them for the fact that other families and groups of people may operate differently. They actually are pretty grounded and cope very well in situations that are markedly different from ours, sometimes to my utter surprise and delight.
It all has taught them a really good respect for other people and they are quite fasinated with the difference.
will continue learning and reading, everyone's experiences are very helpful so thanks.
I did have one query, a couple of people have mentioned radical unschooling what is the difference with 'normal' unschooling?
gem
Schuyler
"I did have one query, a couple of people have mentioned radical
unschooling what is the difference with 'normal' unschooling?"
Normal unschooling is about not using school or a school system like a curriculum to educate your child[ren]. Radical unschooling is about extending the trust that you've got about learning being a natural event in life, one that needs little sound and fury for it to occur, to the rest of life. So, for example, you believe that math is a tool that can be accessed through every day living and you apply that line of thought to the understanding that children can make decisions and learn about food preferences without needing parents to protect them from those choices. Or you recognize that reading is something that occurs with time and a life lived in a print-rich environment and you extend that recognition to understanding that knowing your own body and sleep needs can be done without parental pressure to go to bed at a specific time.
Unschooling is about trust, it's a trust in humans to be inquisitive and to be able to question and explore and learn without direction or limits but with help and engagement and support. Extending that trust beyond those things that fall under subjects in school is radical unschooling.
Schuyler
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unschooling what is the difference with 'normal' unschooling?"
Normal unschooling is about not using school or a school system like a curriculum to educate your child[ren]. Radical unschooling is about extending the trust that you've got about learning being a natural event in life, one that needs little sound and fury for it to occur, to the rest of life. So, for example, you believe that math is a tool that can be accessed through every day living and you apply that line of thought to the understanding that children can make decisions and learn about food preferences without needing parents to protect them from those choices. Or you recognize that reading is something that occurs with time and a life lived in a print-rich environment and you extend that recognition to understanding that knowing your own body and sleep needs can be done without parental pressure to go to bed at a specific time.
Unschooling is about trust, it's a trust in humans to be inquisitive and to be able to question and explore and learn without direction or limits but with help and engagement and support. Extending that trust beyond those things that fall under subjects in school is radical unschooling.
Schuyler
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Schuyler
I must admit I enjoyed the "no" period. Maybe it's hindsight glazing my memory with vaseline, but I loved them playing with their power. I loved the "why" stage as well. That part of their learning that they could continue a conversation by asking for an underlying understanding, even if they were only seeing how long I could come up with an answer. Both were a kind of game. An exploration of the rules of conversation and of their place in the world. I liked that.
Schuyler
________________________________
I use the 'let me think about it a minute' alot too, from when my kids started to talk I didn't want them to be one of those toddlers whose one of their first words is 'no' and becomes one of the only ways they express themselves.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Schuyler
________________________________
I use the 'let me think about it a minute' alot too, from when my kids started to talk I didn't want them to be one of those toddlers whose one of their first words is 'no' and becomes one of the only ways they express themselves.
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plaidpanties666
--- In [email protected], "gemlily14" <gemlily14@...> wrote:
As someone who lives a radical unschooling lifestyle with my kids, I'd say radical unschooling is the normal kind ;) the rest is unschooling with "exceptions" as in "we unschool except chores/math/food..." but that's a Very biased opinion on my part.
---Meredith (Mo 8, Ray 16)
>> I did have one query, a couple of people have mentioned radical unschooling what is the difference with 'normal' unschooling?****************
As someone who lives a radical unschooling lifestyle with my kids, I'd say radical unschooling is the normal kind ;) the rest is unschooling with "exceptions" as in "we unschool except chores/math/food..." but that's a Very biased opinion on my part.
---Meredith (Mo 8, Ray 16)
undermom
--- In [email protected], Krisula Moyer <krisula@...> wrote:
**Before I came to unschooling I had this very bad habit of saying "No" first to anything that I wasn't sure about and *then* trying to make it a yes. The initial "no" was coming from a desire to not get the hopes of the kids up in case I couldn't deliver on the yes. Then I'd think about it and change it to a yes if I could. It really helped a great deal to change that habit to saying "hmm, let me think about that for a minute." Instead of an immediate and wishy washy "no".**
I'm way behind. :) This struck me because my 17yo son recently came home and gave me a hug for saying "Maybe" when he asked about the possibility of some plan or another coming together. He told me that he REALLY appreciates that when I say Maybe it means that I'm not sure whether or not something can happen but that I'm going to think about it/do what I can/try to figure it out. He'd had several friends inform him that when their parents say "maybe" it's nearly always code for "No, but I don't want to argue about it".
Deborah in IL