Stephanie Tavera

My husband came from a poor family that didn't have tv and video
games. He was made to work at an early age of 6 I think. He had to get
up at 4am and check on the animals miles from his house and then still
go to school. I myself feel like a child should have 1-2 little
chores like dishes or feeding a peg. I had chores and didn't always do
them and now I don't enjoy them as an adult. Anyway, what happened is
my husband got mad earlier yesterday because I told my 11 yo son he
could buy a used video game. He had some money and I didn't mind
giving him a few dollars. My husband Fili came home around 8:45pm and
said he needed our son to help him with work. He told me to save them
dinner. Well, it's 4:05 am and they are still not here! I am so pissed
off with him. I think it's crazy! Our son R does so much helping us
around the house and then he doesn't even want him to play video
games?!?! Fili says he makes him get up earlier to help him cause he
wants him to be a man. He's still a kid! A great kid. R called me
around 11:30pm and told me that his dad said the money he could've
used for the game, he could've bought food instead. Then when Fili saw
Romeo was on the phone he made him hang up. Fili hates when I
criticize what he does with him. Fili is not R's real dad but R
doesn't know it. A friend told me that because he isn't his real son,
he'll always be like that towarda him. I don't know I don't know and I
could really use your advice. Thank you, Stephanie

Sent from my iPhone

plaidpanties666

--- In [email protected], Stephanie Tavera <familiatavera@...> wrote:
>A friend told me that because he isn't his real son,
> he'll always be like that towarda him.

Neither part of that is necessarily true - people can form very strong bonds with non-biological offspring, for one, and the issues you describe seem to have more to do with something other than biological parentage, too. They are issues a lot of men struggle with as a parents of sons, and some handle more gracefully than others. Be gentle with your spouse as much as you can, he's dealing with some tough personal issues wrapped around ideas of masculinity and responsibility and what it means to be A Father.

>> Fili hates when I
> criticize what he does with him.

This is really tricky territory to negotiate because while on the one hand you want to stand up for your child, no-one likes to be criticized, and criticism doesn't tend to help relationships. In a sense, your dh's relationship with you ds is about them, not you or even unschooling. Its something they have to work out between them.

When George and I were first together, he was pretty harsh with Ray. He saw that as his job as a Dad, to be the harsh guy, the rule-keeper, the "asshole" as he put it. He didn't like that, but he thought it was something he Had to do for Ray's benefit. My jumping in between them and leaving George feel like he was "doing it wrong" as a parent didn't help very much, it just left George feeling vulnerable and trying harder to be a Good Dad, and to him that meant the biggest "asshole" he could be.

Talking to George when Ray wasn't around was more helpful. I could ask him what kind of relationship he Wanted to have with his son, and hear some of the baggage that men carry into fatherhood. I didn't argue with him about his baggage, and I think that helped. He didn't need me to help him process that stuff, he needed me to love him in all his imperfections. Beyond that, I worked on saying kind things to George about his parenting. I made an effort to notice, out loud, when he was patient, or sweet, or thoughtful. I found ways to let him know I appreciated how hard he was trying for the sake of his boy. I also found ways to offer him some of the same love and support I was offering the kids - to give George the same emotional benefits of unschooling, essentially.

Over time, his attitude about what it meant to be a dad softened. He started offering more kindness to Ray, and saw the way their relationship improved. Nowadays George is a committed radical unschooling parent - some of that is likely personality, but he's also not unique. Other dads have made the same unlikely transition, part way or all the way.

>>Anyway, what happened is
> my husband got mad earlier yesterday because I told my 11 yo son he
> could buy a used video game. He had some money and I didn't mind
> giving him a few dollars.

This is something that would likely be better discussed when things calm down a little - not the situation itself, but the underlying ideas of "who's money is it" and how the decision to give it / spend it comes about. There are two different parts to that, too - what kind of expectations does you dh have about the money your son "has" - is it a gift, is it something he's worked for and "owns" or is it something he's been entrusted with. Most parents will say money "belongs" to the child but treat it like a trust, with conditions on it. So having those expectations in clear air could help. Again, I'm not saying you should argue or criticize. It may be better to let your husband vent his feelings on the matter so he can feel heard and validated.

The other part of the issue is that you gave your ds some money - whose money was it? Was it "family money"? or part of your designated "spending money"? If it was "family money" then maybe your dh feels left out of the process. If he's the main income provider, he may even feel like its "his" money, and you're merely entrusted with it. That's an uncomfortable situation for you, for sure, but if its something you know up-front, rather than an implied expectation, its easier to make decisions about how you want to deal with that in personal terms. If the money was "yours" then that's something else to discuss - you did not expect to be paid back in the fashion your dh is imposing on your child, and don't necessarily want that kind of repayment in the future.

Do y'all know any other unschoolers in real life, or is there a way your dh can meet some unschooling dads? There are some fantastic dads out there who are pretty darned "manly" without being "assholes" and that might be soothing to your dh. He doesn't Have To hold some imaginary line in order to be a good father of a son.

---Meredith

Stephanie Tavera

Do y'all know any other unschoolers in real life, or is there a way
your dh can meet some unschooling dads? There are some fantastic dads
out there who are pretty darned "manly" without being "assholes" and
that might be soothing to your dh. He doesn't Have To hold some
imaginary line in order to be a good father of a son.


We don't know any unschoolers;but maybe a conference would help or
try to find some around here. That would be awesome to find other
"manly" unschooling dads! Lol We're just starting out with unschooling.

I'm currently reading Sandra Dodd's Big Book of Unschooling and she
was saying that she views her kids as guests and that they didn't ask
to be here and that they don't owe us anything. Wow, that really
resonated with me. I was just talking to Fili and I told him this. He
said she was absolutely right and so he says that he's going to let
them ( the kids) be freer (it's a start!). I was so upset and was
thinking of seperating and so I'm glad he wants to do this. Thanks
Meredith for answering. I didn't have anyone to talk to. Stephanie

Sent from my iPhone

On Mar 19, 2010, at 10:53 AM, plaidpanties666
<plaidpanties666@...> wrote:

> Do y'all know any other unschoolers in real life, or is there a way
> your dh can meet some unschooling dads? There are some fantastic
> dads out there who are pretty darned "manly" without being
> "assholes" and that might be soothing to your dh. He doesn't Have To
> hold some imaginary line in order to be a good father of a son.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Ulrike Haupt

Dearest Meredith

Have I ever told you how impressed I am with the posts you send in reply to what others send out? I find your post to be VERY thought through, nurturing, looking at the most impossible angels and still be rational and all encompassing.

Are you putting your valuable know-how into something like a book to benefit others eventually? So much love and understanding and experience is focussed on you already.

I would love to get 'your book' some time soon. The world needs it, I think.

Blissings
Ulrike

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

d.lewis

***My husband came from a poor family that didn't have tv and video
games. He was made to work at an early age of 6 I think. He had to get
up at 4am and check on the animals miles from his house and then still
go to school.***

While he was growing up your husband probably heard the hard work and
responsibility was good for him.
Because he could not change what was happening to him he probably accepted
it to be true.
He "turned out" to be a good, hard working, responsible person so he has
justified the work he was made to do as a child.

It seems he cares a great deal about your son. He wants to ensure Romeo
will "turn out" well. I understand your concern about his methods, though.

First, I'm way behind on email so someone may have given you this link
already. There is an email list called "Peaceful Partnerships" at :
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Peacefulpartnerships/?yguid=279647515
and you may find some helpful advice there. If you can build a better
relationship between yourself and your husband, if you can understand his
point of view and motivations, I think you'll be better able to help him
build good relationships with your children.

You can't change your husband. You already know that. But you can consider
why he is the way he is. In some peaceful moment you might talk with him
about his childhood and tell him you're sorry that he didn't have the kind
of childhood he ought to have had. If you can find a way to express it,
suggest he turned out well because of his own good character, not because of
his hardships, but in spite of them.

Sandra Dodd has written about something she called "re-parenting." I
believe the idea came from meetings of Adult Children of Alcoholics. It is
a practice for healing. In AA the members become parents to a Teddy bear
and "parent" it the way they wish they had been parented. Sandra has
written about the healing that can come from being kinder to our children
than our parents were with us. Maybe, if you can find an appropriate time,
you could talk with your husband about the idea. If he remembers how he
felt as a child, he might find some comfort in making sure his children have
a happier life.

I have noticed that many men with this kind of work ethic seem to need the
approval of others. Offer him more thanks for taking care of his family,
offer more praise for the work he does. People who feel they are
appreciated are usually kinder and more patient with others. This is part
of the concept of filling a person up emotionally.
The more appreciative, kind, generous we are with others, the more of that
they have to give to others. Help your husband feel full of love.

Also, in a peaceful moment, talk about how you feel toward your children.
Mom's have a special connection with their children. Our children grow
inside us, they are nurtured from our bodies and that bond is powerful.
Remind your husband that it is natural for you to feel strongly about the
emotional well being of your children and that you wouldn't be much of a
mother if you weren't thinking of these things. Ask him to be patient with
you when his ideas and your ideas clash. This might help him feel less
like you're criticizing him and more like you're mothering your children.
But be careful not to suggest the children need you to protect them from
him. Make it about you, about your nature and not about your husband.
Maybe a small difference but I think it can help.

Your son is old enough to understand some things about his dad and maybe you
can talk with him. Be careful not to talk against his dad. But maybe
talk about your husband's childhood and how it is that people come to
justify unpleasant things because they are powerless to change them. Help
your son understand his dad loves him and that you are trying to work for a
really happy, peaceful home life - and sometimes that might look like doing
things to help your husband feel better, doing chores, etc. Let your son
know if his dad assigns chores you will help him get them done.

This isn't anything that's likely to change in a hurry. But if it helps
you, many unschooling moms have husbands who were not fully onboard with
unschooling and who didn't really understand these pretty radical parenting
ideas. It can work out.

Understanding that we can't change others does not mean we can't share
information and ideas.
Will your husband read brief articles? There are bits at Sandra Dodd's
website about the benefits of video games. If your husband sees games as a
waste of time maybe reading about kids whose interest in video games led to
jobs in computers or software would give him a different perspective.
Maybe you could print an article now and then and offer it in the way you'd
share anything else you found interesting.

There are links to follow here: http://sandradodd.com/videogames/

There are some blurbs about chores here: http://sandradodd.com/chores/

Joyce Fetteroll's website has a lot about video games and chores (and money)
: http://joyfullyrejoycing.com/

Maybe you can ease some of your husband's worries about the kids spending
money by pointing out the best way for kids to learn is by getting the
opportunity to use money and make spending decisions. Maybe list members
can offer their stories about kids and money.

Or you can take the responsibility. Don't say, "Romeo bought a game" say,
"I bought a game for Romeo, a gift" and then if your husband needs to
express his concern, he can express it to you instead of your child.

***Well, it's 4:05 am and they are still not here! I am so pissed off with
him.***

That *is* troubling. I would probably have gone there and picked up my
kid. But that does depend on the kid. Some kids might have thought it was
kind of cool to be up in the middle of the night. But if my kid was
unhappy, I'd have gone to get him. Maybe you were without a car or
couldn't leave other children. I understand your distress over this.

***...his dad said the money he could've
used for the game, he could've bought food instead.***

My heart hurt for your son *and* your husband when I read that. Your
husband must have heard it often.

We have played a kind of game here about what money could have bought
instead of what we chose. The money we spent on our computer (not a great
example, it's ten years old, but when it was new) could have bought a
reliable used car for some needy, car-less family. It's interesting to
consider our choices. Though your husband made it feel like guilt, you
might ease your son's concerns by playing a game about what the money you
spent on a toaster or blender or coffee pot (or other household things)
might have bought instead. Food for animals in the animal shelter. A
hearing aid for an old person. Some really cool toys. Two more video games!
Consider the possibilities, talk about all the different reasons we make the
choices we make, and maybe if it comes up again between them, your son will
be able to consider it philosophically, without it hurting his feelings.

Deb Lewis

Stephanie Tavera

Thanks Deb for taking time to answer my post! You have lots of good
points. I admit, I haven't been doing so well with housekeeping. Its
something I absolutely hated as a child! I was relying a lot on my
older kids to help me out with household chores and the baby. I have a
2 yr old and an almost 8 mo old and it has been hard! I have a good
baby carrier and today I was able to get tons of stuff done! My
husband and I didn't have time with our parents or the love/affection
that we wish we had. I think unschooling will help us heal. Fili says
he's ok with it (not forcing the kids to clean up) if i keep my end of
the deal. He says he just doesn't want them to be lazy and he's afraid
they won't have a job and will be depending on us forever! lol I
assured him that that won't happen.

Stephanie

On Mar 21, 2010, at 12:30 PM, d.lewis wrote:

> ***My husband came from a poor family that didn't have tv and video
> games. He was made to work at an early age of 6 I think. He had to get
> up at 4am and check on the animals miles from his house and then still
> go to school.***
>
> While he was growing up your husband probably heard the hard work and
> responsibility was good for him.
> Because he could not change what was happening to him he probably
> accepted
> it to be true.
> He "turned out" to be a good, hard working, responsible person so he
> has
> justified the work he was made to do as a child.
>
> It seems he cares a great deal about your son. He wants to ensure
> Romeo
> will "turn out" well. I understand your concern about his methods,
> though.
>
> First, I'm way behind on email so someone may have given you this link
> already. There is an email list called "Peaceful Partnerships" at :
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Peacefulpartnerships/?yguid=279647515
> and you may find some helpful advice there. If you can build a better
> relationship between yourself and your husband, if you can
> understand his
> point of view and motivations, I think you'll be better able to help
> him
> build good relationships with your children.
>
> You can't change your husband. You already know that. But you can
> consider
> why he is the way he is. In some peaceful moment you might talk with
> him
> about his childhood and tell him you're sorry that he didn't have
> the kind
> of childhood he ought to have had. If you can find a way to express
> it,
> suggest he turned out well because of his own good character, not
> because of
> his hardships, but in spite of them.
>
> Sandra Dodd has written about something she called "re-parenting." I
> believe the idea came from meetings of Adult Children of Alcoholics.
> It is
> a practice for healing. In AA the members become parents to a Teddy
> bear
> and "parent" it the way they wish they had been parented. Sandra has
> written about the healing that can come from being kinder to our
> children
> than our parents were with us. Maybe, if you can find an appropriate
> time,
> you could talk with your husband about the idea. If he remembers how
> he
> felt as a child, he might find some comfort in making sure his
> children have
> a happier life.
>
> I have noticed that many men with this kind of work ethic seem to
> need the
> approval of others. Offer him more thanks for taking care of his
> family,
> offer more praise for the work he does. People who feel they are
> appreciated are usually kinder and more patient with others. This is
> part
> of the concept of filling a person up emotionally.
> The more appreciative, kind, generous we are with others, the more
> of that
> they have to give to others. Help your husband feel full of love.
>
> Also, in a peaceful moment, talk about how you feel toward your
> children.
> Mom's have a special connection with their children. Our children grow
> inside us, they are nurtured from our bodies and that bond is
> powerful.
> Remind your husband that it is natural for you to feel strongly
> about the
> emotional well being of your children and that you wouldn't be much
> of a
> mother if you weren't thinking of these things. Ask him to be
> patient with
> you when his ideas and your ideas clash. This might help him feel less
> like you're criticizing him and more like you're mothering your
> children.
> But be careful not to suggest the children need you to protect them
> from
> him. Make it about you, about your nature and not about your husband.
> Maybe a small difference but I think it can help.
>
> Your son is old enough to understand some things about his dad and
> maybe you
> can talk with him. Be careful not to talk against his dad. But maybe
> talk about your husband's childhood and how it is that people come to
> justify unpleasant things because they are powerless to change them.
> Help
> your son understand his dad loves him and that you are trying to
> work for a
> really happy, peaceful home life - and sometimes that might look
> like doing
> things to help your husband feel better, doing chores, etc. Let your
> son
> know if his dad assigns chores you will help him get them done.
>
> This isn't anything that's likely to change in a hurry. But if it
> helps
> you, many unschooling moms have husbands who were not fully onboard
> with
> unschooling and who didn't really understand these pretty radical
> parenting
> ideas. It can work out.
>
> Understanding that we can't change others does not mean we can't share
> information and ideas.
> Will your husband read brief articles? There are bits at Sandra Dodd's
> website about the benefits of video games. If your husband sees
> games as a
> waste of time maybe reading about kids whose interest in video games
> led to
> jobs in computers or software would give him a different perspective.
> Maybe you could print an article now and then and offer it in the
> way you'd
> share anything else you found interesting.
>
> There are links to follow here: http://sandradodd.com/videogames/
>
> There are some blurbs about chores here: http://sandradodd.com/chores/
>
> Joyce Fetteroll's website has a lot about video games and chores
> (and money)
> : http://joyfullyrejoycing.com/
>
> Maybe you can ease some of your husband's worries about the kids
> spending
> money by pointing out the best way for kids to learn is by getting the
> opportunity to use money and make spending decisions. Maybe list
> members
> can offer their stories about kids and money.
>
> Or you can take the responsibility. Don't say, "Romeo bought a game"
> say,
> "I bought a game for Romeo, a gift" and then if your husband needs to
> express his concern, he can express it to you instead of your child.
>
> ***Well, it's 4:05 am and they are still not here! I am so pissed
> off with
> him.***
>
> That *is* troubling. I would probably have gone there and picked up my
> kid. But that does depend on the kid. Some kids might have thought
> it was
> kind of cool to be up in the middle of the night. But if my kid was
> unhappy, I'd have gone to get him. Maybe you were without a car or
> couldn't leave other children. I understand your distress over this.
>
> ***...his dad said the money he could've
> used for the game, he could've bought food instead.***
>
> My heart hurt for your son *and* your husband when I read that. Your
> husband must have heard it often.
>
> We have played a kind of game here about what money could have bought
> instead of what we chose. The money we spent on our computer (not a
> great
> example, it's ten years old, but when it was new) could have bought a
> reliable used car for some needy, car-less family. It's interesting to
> consider our choices. Though your husband made it feel like guilt, you
> might ease your son's concerns by playing a game about what the
> money you
> spent on a toaster or blender or coffee pot (or other household
> things)
> might have bought instead. Food for animals in the animal shelter. A
> hearing aid for an old person. Some really cool toys. Two more video
> games!
> Consider the possibilities, talk about all the different reasons we
> make the
> choices we make, and maybe if it comes up again between them, your
> son will
> be able to consider it philosophically, without it hurting his
> feelings.
>
> Deb Lewis
>
>
>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Faith Void

On Fri, Mar 19, 2010 at 4:15 AM, Stephanie Tavera <familiatavera@...>wrote:

> Fili is not R's real dad but R doesn't know it. A friend told me that
> because he isn't his real son, he'll always be like that towards him.
>
>
> *** You got a lot of really thoughtful comments about your post. I wanted
to add a little about this part.

I don't think that is necessarily true. It scared me for a while because my
dh is raising my daughter that is not biologically his own. She knows this,
she was 5 when he became part of our life. He treats her with the same love
and compassion that he treats our children that are biologically his. It can
seem different at times because she is first. We tend to make the most
mistakes on our firsts whether they are biologically ours or otherwise. Your
dh is learning about parenting. There are things that I did to my first that
I would never to do my second (I controlled her TV viewing for one).

Faith

> __
>
--
www.bearthmama.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]