Ulrike Haupt

Dear Tracy

Somethin I mentioned jsut today as an 'inlaw/parents' argument, "You had you chance with us/your child. Now it is I/we who decide how to educate/parent. Thank you very much, please pass the beans."

Blissings
Ulrike
----- Original Message -----
From: Tracy Austin
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 12:06 AM
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Nutrition, discipline and structure and the inlaws



So we went to the inlaws last weekend and had a huge
blowup.

My son (4) ate about half of his dinner, so my inlaws
started saying that "since you only ate half of your dinner
maybe you'll only get half of your dessert? That's what we
do when kids don't eat all their dinner."

Well I said something stupid like, "Don't say that or he
won't want to come here anymore."

And MIL had a fit and fell in it. Lots of yelling and unpleasantnes
ensued, and I asked them why they feel that way. Their answer
was "it isn't good nutrition!" with much huffing, puffing and table
slapping to emphasize their points.

I pointed out that the kids are healthy looking and never sick.
It went on and MIL said, "I don't know about him, he needs...
something" about my son, who is 4 and very full of boy energy,
not polite, very opinionated, and HATES to be told what to do.

Thing is, we've been doing the no food limits for about a month
and a half, and my dd has outgrown almost all her clothes, and
my son eats sweet foods almost exclusively. I thought it would
balance out by now, but it hasn't...Dd is in school all day (her
choice, 2nd grade) while ds is on the go all day and so hasn't
gained weight.

Anyway, the issues the inlaws are up in arms about are nutrition,
discipline and structure.

So I told them that we would email some info on our philosphy
around raising kids (which has recently changed from natural
partenting [organics, low sugar, food control which they agreed with
for the most part] to no limits on sweets/foods).

I have always known that my kids are complete
beings, not adults in the making, but the inlaws feel we are too
lax, and harming their long-term wellbeing...and that ds will have
troulbe in school, to which I stupidly replied "I don't want them
in school anyway so that doesn't matter" But I think that one
was too much for MIL and she commented not.

Any thoughts, links, ideas would be greatly appreciated!

Tracy

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Tracy Austin

So we went to the inlaws last weekend and had a huge
blowup.

My son (4) ate about half of his dinner, so my inlaws
started saying that "since you only ate half of your dinner
maybe you'll only get half of your dessert? That's what we
do when kids don't eat all their dinner."

Well I said something stupid like, "Don't say that or he
won't want to come here anymore."

And MIL had a fit and fell in it. Lots of yelling and unpleasantnes
ensued, and I asked them why they feel that way. Their answer
was "it isn't good nutrition!" with much huffing, puffing and table
slapping to emphasize their points.

I pointed out that the kids are healthy looking and never sick.
It went on and MIL said, "I don't know about him, he needs...
something" about my son, who is 4 and very full of boy energy,
not polite, very opinionated, and HATES to be told what to do.

Thing is, we've been doing the no food limits for about a month
and a half, and my dd has outgrown almost all her clothes, and
my son eats sweet foods almost exclusively. I thought it would
balance out by now, but it hasn't...Dd is in school all day (her
choice, 2nd grade) while ds is on the go all day and so hasn't
gained weight.

Anyway, the issues the inlaws are up in arms about are nutrition,
discipline and structure.

So I told them that we would email some info on our philosphy
around raising kids (which has recently changed from natural
partenting [organics, low sugar, food control which they agreed with
for the most part] to no limits on sweets/foods).

I have always known that my kids are complete
beings, not adults in the making, but the inlaws feel we are too
lax, and harming their long-term wellbeing...and that ds will have
troulbe in school, to which I stupidly replied "I don't want them
in school anyway so that doesn't matter" But I think that one
was too much for MIL and she commented not.

Any thoughts, links, ideas would be greatly appreciated!

Tracy








[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

plaidpanties666

It might be best to start them off with more of an overview of natural learning, and a good place to start with that is Pam Sorooshian's marvelous synopsis here:

http://sandradodd.com/pam/principles

Something I also found helpful with my dad was talking about this list and the other lists and boards and websites in a general sense. I used the expression "online technical support" and talked about the fact that there are people who've been unschooling twenty years and more who volunteer their time to help newer parents figure things out. It was reassuring for him to know I wasn't just making this all up - or going it alone.

>>> Well I said something stupid like, "Don't say that or he
> won't want to come here anymore."

Note to self... don't use that line again ;)
I've used "we don't have that rule" and "its okay with me" in similar situations.

Since Mo's a conservative eater on a good day, whenever we visit family I make sure to lay a little ground work, as it were. I mention that she doesn't eat well when she's excited/stressed/busy so I'm happy to see her eat anything at all while we're visiting. I also feed her before meals - and do it a little ostentatiously so that grandma/aunty can see that I'm not neglecting the child *and* there's no reason to pull the "if you want dessert..." card. Its okay, she already ate.

> my son eats sweet foods almost exclusively. I thought it would
> balance out by now, but it hasn't...

Some of that is "deschooling food" taking longer than you thought it would, but some of it is the way young children *get* their nutritional needs met natrually. At 4, sweets are going to give your guy the fast energy he needs to Be on the go all day. If you're concerned, making your own is a good way to calm some of your fears - you can load up cookies and cakes with nut meals for extra protein and experiment with different sweeteners if the impulse takes you. It also generally helps to offer more protein rich foods before he's saying he's hungry.

---Meredith (Mo 8, Ray 16)

Tracy Austin

Dear Ulrike,

Hello! So wonderful to "see" you:-) If I said that, it would cause either tears or rage,
as the inlaws are very sensitive to how differently we are parenting.

MIL actually asked my husband, "was it so bad for you? was your childhhood SO bad??

He has told me some stories, but of course he reassured her because that's not
our point. We aren't out to make them feel bad, it's just a by-product that can't
be helped because we are not following their lead.

Hugs,
Tracy



----- Original Message -----
From: Ulrike Haupt
To: [email protected]
Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 4:43 PM
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Nutrition, discipline and structure and the inlaws



Dear Tracy

Somethin I mentioned jsut today as an 'inlaw/parents' argument, "You had you chance with us/your child. Now it is I/we who decide how to educate/parent. Thank you very much, please pass the beans."

Blissings
Ulrike
----- Original Message -----
From: Tracy Austin
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 12:06 AM
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Nutrition, discipline and structure and the inlaws

So we went to the inlaws last weekend and had a huge
blowup.

My son (4) ate about half of his dinner, so my inlaws
started saying that "since you only ate half of your dinner
maybe you'll only get half of your dessert? That's what we
do when kids don't eat all their dinner."

Well I said something stupid like, "Don't say that or he
won't want to come here anymore."

And MIL had a fit and fell in it. Lots of yelling and unpleasantnes
ensued, and I asked them why they feel that way. Their answer
was "it isn't good nutrition!" with much huffing, puffing and table
slapping to emphasize their points.

I pointed out that the kids are healthy looking and never sick.
It went on and MIL said, "I don't know about him, he needs...
something" about my son, who is 4 and very full of boy energy,
not polite, very opinionated, and HATES to be told what to do.

Thing is, we've been doing the no food limits for about a month
and a half, and my dd has outgrown almost all her clothes, and
my son eats sweet foods almost exclusively. I thought it would
balance out by now, but it hasn't...Dd is in school all day (her
choice, 2nd grade) while ds is on the go all day and so hasn't
gained weight.

Anyway, the issues the inlaws are up in arms about are nutrition,
discipline and structure.

So I told them that we would email some info on our philosphy
around raising kids (which has recently changed from natural
partenting [organics, low sugar, food control which they agreed with
for the most part] to no limits on sweets/foods).

I have always known that my kids are complete
beings, not adults in the making, but the inlaws feel we are too
lax, and harming their long-term wellbeing...and that ds will have
troulbe in school, to which I stupidly replied "I don't want them
in school anyway so that doesn't matter" But I think that one
was too much for MIL and she commented not.

Any thoughts, links, ideas would be greatly appreciated!

Tracy

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Ulrike Haupt

Hi Tracy
you said,
"Hello! So wonderful to "see" you:-) If I said that, it would cause either
tears or rage,
as the inlaws are very sensitive to how differently we are parenting.

MIL actually asked my husband, "was it so bad for you? was your childhhood
SO bad??

He has told me some stories, but of course he reassured her because that's
not
our point. We aren't out to make them feel bad, it's just a by-product that
can't
be helped because we are not following their lead."

Actually it would be more my husband who would say that. I personally have
too little social graces to be able to handle any such situations, really. I
tend to avoid truth and conflict in my interactions with others because I
'believe' that I can't handle the emotional upheavals of others. I'm still
learning to distance myself from this 'inner game' of black mail. For
instance the 'bad childhood'. I found that that was mainly my own
interpretation and that changed drastically after some tapping and is still
a work in progress.

Oftentimes interactions between adults and children trigger old wounds
within me. And then, besides the urge to protect the child I try to work on
the wound within and when I get that right the interactions most often
change, too.

Oh well. I don't know if I could communicate this right.

Blissings and Hugs to you , too
Ulrike

Lisa B

I try to frame things in the "this is what we find works for our family, our child, this situation etc etc " Just as people who have kids in schools and want to defend that choice as though you are saying they are doing something wrong our parents will fall into the same trap and wonder if because we are doing it differently then they must have done something wrong! I confess that I am no longer as kind in these exchanges with my FIL because he has no respect for his son, for me or for my children.. he's made no effort to get to know them or us or to contribute in any meaningful way to their well being. His goal is always control and browbeating to make sure that everyone is lower than he is. I have given up and we basically have no relationship with him at this point.

My parents have asked questions and they have disagreed but always from the standpoint of "explain to me what you are thinking so I can understand" rather than "you are wrong I did it this way so it must be right" My mother asked me once if I felt untrusted as a child and I explained I never understood why there were rules about so many things and so many things that I had never considered even doing but there was a rule about it. She feels like her generation parented in the way they did out of fear... there were so many different philosophies and each one seemed to contradict the one before it. What people thought of you was so important and she feels like people got sucked into that worry. I think on some level it's always that way it's just that we are a generation of caring much less about what other people think.

Anyway kind and gentle explanation (not defense but just explaining your point of view) I try to share articles and books and just funny experiences that others have shared. My kids are older and my parents can see they have turned out "ok" so they aren't as nervous anymore but I tried really hard to understand that their concerns were out of their love for us and not a desire to control us. If you are dealing with control you will have to deal with it in a different way.

Hang in there!
Lisa B


--- In [email protected], "Ulrike Haupt" <rica@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Tracy
> you said,
> "Hello! So wonderful to "see" you:-) If I said that, it would cause either
> tears or rage,
> as the inlaws are very sensitive to how differently we are parenting.
>
> MIL actually asked my husband, "was it so bad for you? was your childhhood
> SO bad??
>
> He has told me some stories, but of course he reassured her because that's
> not
> our point. We aren't out to make them feel bad, it's just a by-product that
> can't
> be helped because we are not following their lead."
>
> Actually it would be more my husband who would say that. I personally have
> too little social graces to be able to handle any such situations, really. I
> tend to avoid truth and conflict in my interactions with others because I
> 'believe' that I can't handle the emotional upheavals of others. I'm still
> learning to distance myself from this 'inner game' of black mail. For
> instance the 'bad childhood'. I found that that was mainly my own
> interpretation and that changed drastically after some tapping and is still
> a work in progress.
>
> Oftentimes interactions between adults and children trigger old wounds
> within me. And then, besides the urge to protect the child I try to work on
> the wound within and when I get that right the interactions most often
> change, too.
>
> Oh well. I don't know if I could communicate this right.
>
> Blissings and Hugs to you , too
> Ulrike
>

Amanda Mayan

>> If I said that, it would cause either tears or rage, as the inlaws are
very sensitive to how differently we are parenting.

MIL actually asked my husband, "was it so bad for you? was your
childhhood SO bad??



Another way to phase this (from a conversation that an unschooling friend
had with her parents) is something like "you guys did such a wonderful job
with me that you taught me to critically think about everything I do with my
children and never accept the status quo.don't you think that there is
always room for a bit of improvement"



It really avoids any potential for conflict or hurt feelings.





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Karen Swanay

You wrote:

>> If I said that, it would cause either tears or rage, as the inlaws are
very sensitive to how differently we are parenting.

MIL actually asked my husband, "was it so bad for you? was your
childhood SO bad??

***************************
Remember too, that you DON'T have to answer or say anything. We divulge too
much I think. A simple exchange like:

MIL : "He is rude and fat. You should have more control over him."
YOU: "Thank you for your advice, I know you want the best for him."

DONE. What is she going to say after that? You haven't given any ground
(your situation sounds like resource fighting to me) and she feels heard.
If she presses you further you just say something like:

"You know, I'm going to have to cogitate on this a while, you've given me a
lot to think about."

Again, you haven't said she is right. You aren't agreeing the kid needs
something different than he's getting...you just are being polite to your
MIL. Who *probably* is in a panic over a rude, fat kid (or whatever she's
complaining about) no doubt she's catastrophizing and sees him as a 30 yr
old criminal. Remember, this is new to her and not the way one "ought" to
raise a child. She's looking at your kid with the only tools she has in her
toolbox. It's hard to give to MIL that she's likely doing the best she can
with what she has, but she probably is.

I don't know what you mean by he's rude...but that one is the one that
likely sets her off. You might work with him on not being so rude if it's
really awful stuff. I don't know if you mean he interrupts when others are
talking (normal for a 4 yr old) or if he punches his grandmother when he
doesn't get his way (guaranteed to set MIL off....hell, it would set me off
if a kid hit me because they didn't get the crusts cut off their toast.)

You don't have to push and pull your boy into the mold your MIL has for him,
but he can be reminded that EVERYONE has the right to feel safe and happy.
We don't always get that but that ought to be the goal. So if it's physical
"rudeness" I'd intervene....you know, I'd intervene in all interactions so
she didn't have anything to complain about. And if in the end she's still
complaining, at least she feels heard and likely that will cut down on the
complaining.

That is my opinion based on dealing with my MIL who is a malignant
narcissist...the afore mentioned opinion should be recognized as MY opinion
and your mileage may vary.

Karen
"Correlation does not imply causation."

"If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a
nail." Abraham Maslow



>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

You could tell her to stop shoveling the guilt and check out the local public schools. My Mom, who volunteers at the same elementary school I attended, thanks me for hsing/unschooling her Grandchildren.

Nance

--- In [email protected], "Tracy Austin" <webinfusion@...> wrote:
>
> Dear Ulrike,
>
> Hello! So wonderful to "see" you:-) If I said that, it would cause either tears or rage,
> as the inlaws are very sensitive to how differently we are parenting.
>
> MIL actually asked my husband, "was it so bad for you? was your childhhood SO bad??
>
>

zeph32

I can totally sympathize with Tracy over the inlaw situation. We face problems with the inlaws a lot. Just to add flavour to the mix my dh works for his parents, so our livlihood kind of depends on them. I don't have any answers but have enjoyed reading the answers given. It is very tough raising children differantly when the inlaws are very opinionated. I even went so far to try as to take MIL with us to an unschooling conference so she could see that they are functioning people. I don't think it went well in convincing her. We have put some in school, that didn't appease them, we have taken them home, it is so frusterating when no matter what you do they find fault with you and you are ruining your children. I don't get what is so wrong with me that I wouldn't want my children to "turn out like me". I felt the most at peace in my family when we were just living life and learning along the way.
This week is March break here, so the ones who wanted to go to school still are home and some of them want to be pulled, the ones I pulled at Chirstmas, want to go back, I was angished over the decision to put them in and the pressure that was on me then and am anguishing again over what to do now. I just wanted you to know, I am in the same boat you are including the food fight issues with the inlaws, sometimes my only saving grace is repeating" they won't live forever"
As far as food issues go, I have had to stand up for my childrens right to eat what they want but also balance what MIL has as rules. I approached it from a wasteful persective for her. She midaswell make child friendly food that they enjoy, then fight to get them to eat roast, squash, turnip and otherthings that they just don't enjoy. It has seem to work better at family meals this way. Just my muddled 2 cents

Sarah mother of 7

--- In [email protected], "marbleface@..." <marbleface@...> wrote:
>
> You could tell her to stop shoveling the guilt and check out the local public schools. My Mom, who volunteers at the same elementary school I attended, thanks me for hsing/unschooling her Grandchildren.
>
> Nance
>
> --- In [email protected], "Tracy Austin" <webinfusion@> wrote:
> >
> > Dear Ulrike,
> >
> > Hello! So wonderful to "see" you:-) If I said that, it would cause either tears or rage,
> > as the inlaws are very sensitive to how differently we are parenting.
> >
> > MIL actually asked my husband, "was it so bad for you? was your childhhood SO bad??
> >
> >
>

Joyce Fetteroll

On Mar 16, 2010, at 10:14 PM, zeph32 wrote:

> I don't think it went well in convincing her.

Well, you're pretty much trying to do what schools do: force
information on someone who doesn't want it and doesn't understand why
they'd want it. Just because you know you're right doesn't erase
someone else's understanding that they're right. And the harder you
try to make them see you're right, the harder they'll cling to what
you're trying to tear from them. That's human nature.

Just as with unschooling, it's more relationship building to be with
who the child is rather than shaping them into who you think they
should be.

> sometimes my only saving grace is repeating" they won't live forever"
>

That doesn't get to the heart of their fears though. Treating
people's fears lightly tends to deepen them because they not only
fear what you're doing but fear that you have no idea what you're
doing if you don't see the obvious harm it will cause.

I wish that were an easier topic to search the archives for.
Objections as a search term might bring some up. In laws will
probably bring up other threads.

The sympathy of others stuck in the same situation can make the
situation feel less onerous, easier to put up with, easier to stay
stuck. Sympathy is less likely to do that if combined with
information on how to make the situation better and move on.

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Tracy Austin

I want to thank everyone for their replies. There is much here that has been
very helpful.

And update: my husband spoke with his dad yesterday, a few days after
I had sent some links from SandraDodd.com for him to read. Specifically
the link to the rules page and the principles page. What/if he read beyond that
I don't know.

He said to my husband, "A lot of this stuff makes sense. Maybe your mother
and I didn't have it all right, after all."

Wow! Now I don't know if MIL has read it, or feels the same, but that he did
and said that, is just huge and I'm thrilled:-))

That's all for now. Raking leaves and generally having a good time with the kids!

Tracy

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]