What kind of stories would an unschooling society invent?
Shira Rocklin
So, given the assumption that children like the current stories because
they can experience some freedom from limits through the characters in
the story... what sort of stories do unschooled children write? In what
way would the plot be furthered, or the character develop, with their
parents always there to help them?
Little Bear is actually a good example, maybe. Sure, mama is sometimes
gone, and little bear gets into some mischief. But its always just
creative play, or misunderstanding, never an attempt to gain authority.
And particularly, the one where he keeps changing his clothes to go out
into the cold, and she keeps supporting him and knitting him new pieces
of winter outerwear, even though she must know that his 'coat of fur' is
the best snowsuit for him, and in the end he learns that on his own.
And she doesn't say "I told you so" or anything.
"Red is Best" - How about that book? Read it? I'm thinking about it.
I noticed some things while reading it. The child says that red is
best, wants only all her red things to use. You see the parent telling
her that her red boots aren't warm enough for winter, her red mittens
have holes, her red coat isn't warm enough, etc. And yet, the little
girl is wearing all of the red things that aren't 'quite right', despite
what the mother said, except for the winter coat, which she is wearing
the blue one. So it seems like the mother is wonderful, sharing with
her child information about choices, and letting child make choices, but
taking control of one thing that is more important (winter coat during
cold weather), and letting child experiment with the rest. Probably not
a good idea to voice our opinions about every choice our children make
(every time they choose to wear the red pantyhose with the pink dress),
but books are often about exaggeration to show a point, and also
repetition for children who enjoy that. So, I don't fault the book for
that.
This is really interesting. Wouldn't it be cool if someone were to do a
review of literature from an unschooling perspective?
they can experience some freedom from limits through the characters in
the story... what sort of stories do unschooled children write? In what
way would the plot be furthered, or the character develop, with their
parents always there to help them?
Little Bear is actually a good example, maybe. Sure, mama is sometimes
gone, and little bear gets into some mischief. But its always just
creative play, or misunderstanding, never an attempt to gain authority.
And particularly, the one where he keeps changing his clothes to go out
into the cold, and she keeps supporting him and knitting him new pieces
of winter outerwear, even though she must know that his 'coat of fur' is
the best snowsuit for him, and in the end he learns that on his own.
And she doesn't say "I told you so" or anything.
"Red is Best" - How about that book? Read it? I'm thinking about it.
I noticed some things while reading it. The child says that red is
best, wants only all her red things to use. You see the parent telling
her that her red boots aren't warm enough for winter, her red mittens
have holes, her red coat isn't warm enough, etc. And yet, the little
girl is wearing all of the red things that aren't 'quite right', despite
what the mother said, except for the winter coat, which she is wearing
the blue one. So it seems like the mother is wonderful, sharing with
her child information about choices, and letting child make choices, but
taking control of one thing that is more important (winter coat during
cold weather), and letting child experiment with the rest. Probably not
a good idea to voice our opinions about every choice our children make
(every time they choose to wear the red pantyhose with the pink dress),
but books are often about exaggeration to show a point, and also
repetition for children who enjoy that. So, I don't fault the book for
that.
This is really interesting. Wouldn't it be cool if someone were to do a
review of literature from an unschooling perspective?
Joyce Fetteroll
On Jan 16, 2010, at 7:58 AM, Shira Rocklin wrote:
biological need to feel personally powerful to triumph over
obstacles, not a socially induced need.
Part of unschooling is empowering our kids, helping them feel they
can tackle problems. We're supporting and nurturing their growing
independence. Why would they write or read stories about needing
support?
Kathryn's stories are similar to stories written by mainstream
people. They're adventure stories. Many of them are team stories, but
that's because she branched out from Pokemon stories where there were
several characters working towards a goal.
If unschooled children write stories with supportive mothers or
present parents, I suspect it will be a conscious decision because
they're tired of stories with mean or absent parents. (*I* get
irritated by stories with conventional power struggles between
parents and kids.)
While it would be a refreshing element to a story and it's great to
live lives of nurture and support, they get dull to read about! The
story limitations of supportive parents working with their kids on an
adventure will become apparent after a few stories! ;-) And why would
unschooled kids need the comfort of supportive parents in a book when
they have that in real life? They have the same biological drive
toward independence that schooled, conventionally parented kids do.
Losing the parents in a story might be partly reactionary to control
but I think it's mostly a biological drive toward independence.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> So, given the assumption that children like the current storiesI don't think the assumption is correct. I think stories meet a
> because
> they can experience some freedom from limits through the characters in
> the story... what sort of stories do unschooled children write?
biological need to feel personally powerful to triumph over
obstacles, not a socially induced need.
Part of unschooling is empowering our kids, helping them feel they
can tackle problems. We're supporting and nurturing their growing
independence. Why would they write or read stories about needing
support?
Kathryn's stories are similar to stories written by mainstream
people. They're adventure stories. Many of them are team stories, but
that's because she branched out from Pokemon stories where there were
several characters working towards a goal.
If unschooled children write stories with supportive mothers or
present parents, I suspect it will be a conscious decision because
they're tired of stories with mean or absent parents. (*I* get
irritated by stories with conventional power struggles between
parents and kids.)
While it would be a refreshing element to a story and it's great to
live lives of nurture and support, they get dull to read about! The
story limitations of supportive parents working with their kids on an
adventure will become apparent after a few stories! ;-) And why would
unschooled kids need the comfort of supportive parents in a book when
they have that in real life? They have the same biological drive
toward independence that schooled, conventionally parented kids do.
Losing the parents in a story might be partly reactionary to control
but I think it's mostly a biological drive toward independence.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jenna Robertson
My girls enjoy the Septimus Heap series. The family has two parents and grandparents, along w/ an assortment of ghosts and other adult figures, who have meaningful relationships with the kids. The kids often end up on adventures of their own, usually w/ the parent's blessing or because of a turn of events in the book, but the adults do show up periodically in the book to offer support or help. However, the older kids also help the younger kids in exactly the same way when adults aren't present.
The kids all have followed their own interests and even though the parents some times are concerned for their children's safety, the parents don't get in the way of personal choices. The family relationship is based on respect and love and trust.
However, I would suggest that my girls are mainly drawn to these books because they are well written and have a great plot rather than for the above reasons. That said, my eldest often pointed out the absence of parents in books, or divorce or death as a common theme, when she was around 8. It did bother her and she wished she could find more books w/ two parents or less unhappiness. (The Ramona books are another series that has two parents.) It gave us a great opportunity to discuss why authors might use those elements and if it would be possible to write a book where everything was happy and still have it be an interesting book.
:)
Jenna
"What's the matter with you? All it takes is faith and trust. Oh! And something I forgot. Dust!"......
" Yep, just a little bit of pixie dust. Now, think of the happiest things. It's the same as having wings." - Peter Pan
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
The kids all have followed their own interests and even though the parents some times are concerned for their children's safety, the parents don't get in the way of personal choices. The family relationship is based on respect and love and trust.
However, I would suggest that my girls are mainly drawn to these books because they are well written and have a great plot rather than for the above reasons. That said, my eldest often pointed out the absence of parents in books, or divorce or death as a common theme, when she was around 8. It did bother her and she wished she could find more books w/ two parents or less unhappiness. (The Ramona books are another series that has two parents.) It gave us a great opportunity to discuss why authors might use those elements and if it would be possible to write a book where everything was happy and still have it be an interesting book.
:)
Jenna
"What's the matter with you? All it takes is faith and trust. Oh! And something I forgot. Dust!"......
" Yep, just a little bit of pixie dust. Now, think of the happiest things. It's the same as having wings." - Peter Pan
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
VickiJ
The way I was with my childen when they were babies/toddlers was unschooling, tho I didn't know there was a name for it. I remember feeling so wonderful when reading the "Little Bear" books to/with my young kids. Mama was so loving and accepting, and Little Bear was such a sweet and gentle youngster, that I found myself wanting to read them over and over as much as my kids did. I'm guessing it had as much to do with my own healing from a less than ideal childhood as with my kids loving the stories, but we both got so much from them.
Does anyone know of books written FOR children FROM an unschooling point of view?
Does anyone know of books written FOR children FROM an unschooling point of view?
>
> Little Bear is actually a good example, maybe. Sure, mama is sometimes
> gone, and little bear gets into some mischief. But its always just
> creative play, or misunderstanding, never an attempt to gain authority.
> And particularly, the one where he keeps changing his clothes to go out
> into the cold, and she keeps supporting him and knitting him new pieces
> of winter outerwear, even though she must know that his 'coat of fur' is
> the best snowsuit for him, and in the end he learns that on his own.
> And she doesn't say "I told you so" or anything.
>
Heather
My friend, Lisa Bentley, has started writing a series of chapter books about
a homeschool family that travels the US in a RV. Lisa herself is an
unschooler and is my daughters girl scout leader. Most of the girls in the
troop are unschoolers as well. Her first 2 books are already out. You can
find them here: http://www.wrightontimebooks.com/
She also has a blog "do life right" which includes a 20 question interview
that she asked unschoolers to answer. Sandra Dodd included her '20
questions' in her *Big Book of Unschooling*. Do Life Right
blog<http://www.doliferight.com/blog/2009/06/17/20-unschooling-questions-lisa-russell-from-wa-usa/>
heather
tucson
a homeschool family that travels the US in a RV. Lisa herself is an
unschooler and is my daughters girl scout leader. Most of the girls in the
troop are unschoolers as well. Her first 2 books are already out. You can
find them here: http://www.wrightontimebooks.com/
She also has a blog "do life right" which includes a 20 question interview
that she asked unschoolers to answer. Sandra Dodd included her '20
questions' in her *Big Book of Unschooling*. Do Life Right
blog<http://www.doliferight.com/blog/2009/06/17/20-unschooling-questions-lisa-russell-from-wa-usa/>
heather
tucson
On Sun, Jan 17, 2010 at 4:56 AM, VickiJ <vjohnsonbarrett@...> wrote:
>
>
> The way I was with my childen when they were babies/toddlers was
> unschooling, tho I didn't know there was a name for it. I remember feeling
> so wonderful when reading the "Little Bear" books to/with my young kids.
> Mama was so loving and accepting, and Little Bear was such a sweet and
> gentle youngster, that I found myself wanting to read them over and over as
> much as my kids did. I'm guessing it had as much to do with my own healing
> from a less than ideal childhood as with my kids loving the stories, but we
> both got so much from them.
> Does anyone know of books written FOR children FROM an unschooling point of
> view?
>
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Shira Rocklin
"And why would
unschooled kids need the comfort of supportive parents in a book when
they have that in real life? They have the same biological drive
toward independence that schooled, conventionally parented kids do.
Losing the parents in a story might be partly reactionary to control
but I think it's mostly a biological drive toward independence."
So, I guess both kinds of children are looking for the same thing in the
end, but their reason for looking are different? A schooled child has
an urge to be independent, biologically, and also might want
independence they aren't allowed in real life. And an unschooled child
feels very secure in their ability to make choices in real life, and so
also enjoy reading about situations where children get to make exciting
choices and experience independence? Ok, more clearly, unschooled
children are given much freedom and choice, but still, age-appropriately
are not independant, because their parents are always there to help
them... so they enjoy reading about children acting independently
without parents around.... its about independence from the need of
parental help?
Shira
unschooled kids need the comfort of supportive parents in a book when
they have that in real life? They have the same biological drive
toward independence that schooled, conventionally parented kids do.
Losing the parents in a story might be partly reactionary to control
but I think it's mostly a biological drive toward independence."
So, I guess both kinds of children are looking for the same thing in the
end, but their reason for looking are different? A schooled child has
an urge to be independent, biologically, and also might want
independence they aren't allowed in real life. And an unschooled child
feels very secure in their ability to make choices in real life, and so
also enjoy reading about situations where children get to make exciting
choices and experience independence? Ok, more clearly, unschooled
children are given much freedom and choice, but still, age-appropriately
are not independant, because their parents are always there to help
them... so they enjoy reading about children acting independently
without parents around.... its about independence from the need of
parental help?
Shira
Joyce Fetteroll
On Jan 17, 2010, at 2:30 PM, Shira Rocklin wrote:
instinct to want to feel competent. The schooled, conventionally
parented kids have an additional layer on top of that, like the
parent voices that keep reminding them they aren't competent (to make
choices, to do what the parents think they should and so on.) When
you're digging this deep for answers, I think control is too vague a
term. Control could be a shackle or a cage that operates even when
the parent is gone. For kids, control is very often about a parent in
effect saying a child isn't competent to make the right decisions so
the parent needs to decide for the child. And that grates against the
drive to feel competent and test one's own always-changing limitations.
If you tell a child, "No, you can't jump off the slide, that's too
high," I don't think a child feels chained down. They feel -- and I'm
projecting from my own feelings as a child and my reactions as an
adult -- "How do you know? I need to test that out and see. Maybe I
can."
(A good unschooling approach would be, if you know your child isn't a
great jumper, to start off with some jumps that aren't quite as high
and work up to it. ;-)
independence rather than a fight against something in their way. It's
biological.
I think you might be looking too much from the parents' point of
view. All the work we as parents do is pretty much in the background
as far as young kids are concerned. We're providing what they expect
and need so they're not really consciously aware of 90% of what we
do. (And when they do it's a momentary thing.) The time they most
notice us is when we're in their way or not there when they need us ;-)
If we're attuned to them, we're providing the amount of help they
need so it's not going to be a "too much!" or "too little!" alarm on
their radar. Sort of like when the furnace is working. It's not that
we don't appreciate it. It's that we are hyper aware when it's not
shutting off or not coming on when it should ;-) (Of course there are
always some kids whose drive exceeds their ability so it's not a
blanket statement. Lots of kids want to ride bikes before their
bodies are ready. Some kids want to be out in the world before
they've gathered enough experience (or years to be taken seriously).)
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> but their reason for looking are different?I think ultimately their reasons are the same. It's biological
instinct to want to feel competent. The schooled, conventionally
parented kids have an additional layer on top of that, like the
parent voices that keep reminding them they aren't competent (to make
choices, to do what the parents think they should and so on.) When
you're digging this deep for answers, I think control is too vague a
term. Control could be a shackle or a cage that operates even when
the parent is gone. For kids, control is very often about a parent in
effect saying a child isn't competent to make the right decisions so
the parent needs to decide for the child. And that grates against the
drive to feel competent and test one's own always-changing limitations.
If you tell a child, "No, you can't jump off the slide, that's too
high," I don't think a child feels chained down. They feel -- and I'm
projecting from my own feelings as a child and my reactions as an
adult -- "How do you know? I need to test that out and see. Maybe I
can."
(A good unschooling approach would be, if you know your child isn't a
great jumper, to start off with some jumps that aren't quite as high
and work up to it. ;-)
> so they enjoy reading about children acting independentlyAgain, I think it's need for competence and a movement toward
> without parents around.... its about independence from the need of
> parental help?
independence rather than a fight against something in their way. It's
biological.
I think you might be looking too much from the parents' point of
view. All the work we as parents do is pretty much in the background
as far as young kids are concerned. We're providing what they expect
and need so they're not really consciously aware of 90% of what we
do. (And when they do it's a momentary thing.) The time they most
notice us is when we're in their way or not there when they need us ;-)
If we're attuned to them, we're providing the amount of help they
need so it's not going to be a "too much!" or "too little!" alarm on
their radar. Sort of like when the furnace is working. It's not that
we don't appreciate it. It's that we are hyper aware when it's not
shutting off or not coming on when it should ;-) (Of course there are
always some kids whose drive exceeds their ability so it's not a
blanket statement. Lots of kids want to ride bikes before their
bodies are ready. Some kids want to be out in the world before
they've gathered enough experience (or years to be taken seriously).)
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
I read a lot as a child and love adventure books. I grew up with very suportive parents that gave me lots of freedom.
I did not read for the reasons you mentioned.
I read because you live those adventures that you normally would not.
Kids in real life are not solving crimes ( I loved Agatha Christie).
It was fun!
Alex Polikowsky
http://polykow.blogspot.com/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingmn/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I did not read for the reasons you mentioned.
I read because you live those adventures that you normally would not.
Kids in real life are not solving crimes ( I loved Agatha Christie).
It was fun!
Alex Polikowsky
http://polykow.blogspot.com/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingmn/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]