Gentle water
Karen Swanay
My guess is not everyone will agree with all of this...but I thought it was
interesting to find this message in this particular venue. It is religious
but that's not really the point. So ignore that part if it doesn't speak to
you.
Dripping Water: Gentle Parenting
Print this Page<http://link.chabad.org/go.asp?li=C8550DCE4B30327FC060AFABF5B3DB8B&ui=EC20ACF869B29A684DCD4E073D5D53AC>
By Sherri Mandell<http://link.chabad.org/go.asp?li=82A4707E44EF8B7F60F9DE3A058ED5A3&ui=EC20ACF869B29A684DCD4E073D5D53AC>
Dripping water. That's how a parent has to speak: like a slow and constant
drip.
Think of the child as a crop. There are different ways of watering crops.
You can pour water on them with rotary sprinklers, a whirling deluge; or you
can conserve your energy and work on the roots, gently, through a network of
connections called drip irrigation, which was invented here in Israel. You
can drip on your children.
And one day they will grow in the direction you have guided them.
I learned this concept of gentle parenting recently when a woman told me
something very important, something I wish I had known when I was parenting
little kids. But it is still relevant for parenting older kids:
Think of kids as a crop *You just keep saying it.* Whatever *it* is. Ad
nauseum. You just keep saying the same thing. The kids don't have to buy it.
They don't have to do it. They don't even have to listen. But if you keep
saying it, eventually it will seep in. Maybe not now--maybe when they are
twenty. But they will hear your voice.
Isn't that what a parent is, anyway, ultimately: a voice inside of a child?
Think of our religion--how we say the same things over and over: the weekly
Torah readings, the prayers. The hope is that those words one day will enter
us, define us, change us--slowly.
G-d, after all, created the world with words. And He didn't have to yell to
create.
G-d didn't have to yell to createThis gentle method takes a lot of pressure
off of the parent. She doesn't have to get her way. She just has to define
her way, describe her way, articulate her way, know her way; and just by
uttering her way, she plants a seed within the child that can lead to
movement.
We usually think of movement as quick: quick obedience, rapid listening. But
children aren't built for rapid response to their parents. How often it is
that they don't respond, at least not the way you want them to.
I remember when my kids were little I would ask them to stop screaming. I
would ask them again. I would tell them. And then I would scream at them *stop
screaming.* I would lose it. I was Crazy Mom.
But as we moms grow up, we also learn. There is no need to force things. I
learned this lesson in a very painful way. My son was murdered when he was
thirteen. Before he was killed, I used to force the matter at hand with my
children. I wanted them to do what I wanted them to do. Now. Not later. Not
tomorrow.
But losing a child makes you revaluate your priorities. Makes you reevaluate
everything. You don't expect things to go your way. You don't expect. You
know that you can do your best and the worst can happen. All you can do is
try.
So now when I hear parents yelling at their kids I am a little bit shocked.
I used to get into crazy power struggles with my kids. I wanted them to
clean their rooms and do their homework and brush their teeth and sit at the
table and go to sleep at a proper hour and I wanted them to obey me.
The control I thought I had was falseAfter my son's murder, it was so clear
that the control I thought I had was false. I had no power. Now I was happy
because they were alive. I truly appreciated them. I wanted to be with them,
just to be with them. I didn't need them to listen to me.
It's amazing that the power struggles stopped. Now for me to get into a
power struggle with a child is rare, very rare. Yes I occasionally lose it,
but I don't have to be right and I don't have to force my will. I can be
like water, dripping on a rock.
The great Sage and scholar Rabbi Akiva, a man who first studied the Torah
when he was forty and had no confidence that he would be able to learn it,
noticed the way that water had hollowed a cavity in a rock. He said
something to the effect that if gentle water could hollow a rock, then the
words of Torah (which are compared to water) could also penetrate him.
Our words are water and sometimes our children are rocks. But rocks can be
sculpted. Especially if you are willing to wait.
Karen
"I argue that the Talmud is about the constant struggle to understand."
~Arthur Hertzberg
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
interesting to find this message in this particular venue. It is religious
but that's not really the point. So ignore that part if it doesn't speak to
you.
Dripping Water: Gentle Parenting
Print this Page<http://link.chabad.org/go.asp?li=C8550DCE4B30327FC060AFABF5B3DB8B&ui=EC20ACF869B29A684DCD4E073D5D53AC>
By Sherri Mandell<http://link.chabad.org/go.asp?li=82A4707E44EF8B7F60F9DE3A058ED5A3&ui=EC20ACF869B29A684DCD4E073D5D53AC>
Dripping water. That's how a parent has to speak: like a slow and constant
drip.
Think of the child as a crop. There are different ways of watering crops.
You can pour water on them with rotary sprinklers, a whirling deluge; or you
can conserve your energy and work on the roots, gently, through a network of
connections called drip irrigation, which was invented here in Israel. You
can drip on your children.
And one day they will grow in the direction you have guided them.
I learned this concept of gentle parenting recently when a woman told me
something very important, something I wish I had known when I was parenting
little kids. But it is still relevant for parenting older kids:
Think of kids as a crop *You just keep saying it.* Whatever *it* is. Ad
nauseum. You just keep saying the same thing. The kids don't have to buy it.
They don't have to do it. They don't even have to listen. But if you keep
saying it, eventually it will seep in. Maybe not now--maybe when they are
twenty. But they will hear your voice.
Isn't that what a parent is, anyway, ultimately: a voice inside of a child?
Think of our religion--how we say the same things over and over: the weekly
Torah readings, the prayers. The hope is that those words one day will enter
us, define us, change us--slowly.
G-d, after all, created the world with words. And He didn't have to yell to
create.
G-d didn't have to yell to createThis gentle method takes a lot of pressure
off of the parent. She doesn't have to get her way. She just has to define
her way, describe her way, articulate her way, know her way; and just by
uttering her way, she plants a seed within the child that can lead to
movement.
We usually think of movement as quick: quick obedience, rapid listening. But
children aren't built for rapid response to their parents. How often it is
that they don't respond, at least not the way you want them to.
I remember when my kids were little I would ask them to stop screaming. I
would ask them again. I would tell them. And then I would scream at them *stop
screaming.* I would lose it. I was Crazy Mom.
But as we moms grow up, we also learn. There is no need to force things. I
learned this lesson in a very painful way. My son was murdered when he was
thirteen. Before he was killed, I used to force the matter at hand with my
children. I wanted them to do what I wanted them to do. Now. Not later. Not
tomorrow.
But losing a child makes you revaluate your priorities. Makes you reevaluate
everything. You don't expect things to go your way. You don't expect. You
know that you can do your best and the worst can happen. All you can do is
try.
So now when I hear parents yelling at their kids I am a little bit shocked.
I used to get into crazy power struggles with my kids. I wanted them to
clean their rooms and do their homework and brush their teeth and sit at the
table and go to sleep at a proper hour and I wanted them to obey me.
The control I thought I had was falseAfter my son's murder, it was so clear
that the control I thought I had was false. I had no power. Now I was happy
because they were alive. I truly appreciated them. I wanted to be with them,
just to be with them. I didn't need them to listen to me.
It's amazing that the power struggles stopped. Now for me to get into a
power struggle with a child is rare, very rare. Yes I occasionally lose it,
but I don't have to be right and I don't have to force my will. I can be
like water, dripping on a rock.
The great Sage and scholar Rabbi Akiva, a man who first studied the Torah
when he was forty and had no confidence that he would be able to learn it,
noticed the way that water had hollowed a cavity in a rock. He said
something to the effect that if gentle water could hollow a rock, then the
words of Torah (which are compared to water) could also penetrate him.
Our words are water and sometimes our children are rocks. But rocks can be
sculpted. Especially if you are willing to wait.
Karen
"I argue that the Talmud is about the constant struggle to understand."
~Arthur Hertzberg
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Ronnie
I love the part about how a perspective shift (hopefully not one so violently inspired as hers) can make everything better. Remembering what is *really* important to us helps a lot in tougher parenting moments.
I'm less comfortable with the "children can be sculpted" part. A rock vs. water analogy isn't quite right for what happens in our house, you know? It's more like four pieces of unevenly cut foam being squished up against each other, with lots of give and take on all sides and the occasional perfect fit. And then when you separate the foam again, all of the pieces hold their new shapes and are happy about it. :-)
I'm less comfortable with the "children can be sculpted" part. A rock vs. water analogy isn't quite right for what happens in our house, you know? It's more like four pieces of unevenly cut foam being squished up against each other, with lots of give and take on all sides and the occasional perfect fit. And then when you separate the foam again, all of the pieces hold their new shapes and are happy about it. :-)
--- In [email protected], Karen Swanay <luvbullbreeds@...> wrote:
>
> My guess is not everyone will agree with all of this...
Karen Swanay
True. As I said I was surprised to see this idea expressed in this forum.
(Not here, but where I got it..) and was pleased they were offering it up.
I like your foam analogy but I don't think we remain unchanged by time and
our interactions with people. Our shapes do change over time I
think...though I would hope that we make the decision to change them not
that we are being forcefully sculpted. The water/stone thing was meant to
show how gentle change can be but I was thinking "having a drip on the same
spot for eons would SO PISS me off!" LOL....I guess it's not as gentle as
it reads but it's nice to see a break from a "spare the rod" crap usually
touted as "proper parenting"
Karen
"I argue that the Talmud is about the constant struggle to understand."
~Arthur Hertzberg
(Not here, but where I got it..) and was pleased they were offering it up.
I like your foam analogy but I don't think we remain unchanged by time and
our interactions with people. Our shapes do change over time I
think...though I would hope that we make the decision to change them not
that we are being forcefully sculpted. The water/stone thing was meant to
show how gentle change can be but I was thinking "having a drip on the same
spot for eons would SO PISS me off!" LOL....I guess it's not as gentle as
it reads but it's nice to see a break from a "spare the rod" crap usually
touted as "proper parenting"
Karen
"I argue that the Talmud is about the constant struggle to understand."
~Arthur Hertzberg
On Mon, Nov 30, 2009 at 1:10 PM, Ronnie <hmsdragonfly@...> wrote:
>
>
> I love the part about how a perspective shift (hopefully not one so
> violently inspired as hers) can make everything better. Remembering what is
> *really* important to us helps a lot in tougher parenting moments.
>
> I'm less comfortable with the "children can be sculpted" part. A rock vs.
> water analogy isn't quite right for what happens in our house, you know?
> It's more like four pieces of unevenly cut foam being squished up against
> each other, with lots of give and take on all sides and the occasional
> perfect fit. And then when you separate the foam again, all of the pieces
> hold their new shapes and are happy about it. :-)
>
>
> --- In [email protected]<unschoolingbasics%40yahoogroups.com>,
> Karen Swanay <luvbullbreeds@...> wrote:
> >
> > My guess is not everyone will agree with all of this...
>
>
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
This might be a good place to start for some but for some reason most of
this infuriates me. Repeating things ad nauseum to me drives me crazy and
makes me resent the person saying it. Is that just a nice way of encouraging
parents to nag their children?
I don't want to be the voice inside my child. I want my child to develop his
or her own inner voice. I didn't really get past the first couple of
paragraphs. I stopped reading after this passage:
will enter us, define us, change us--slowly.<<<<<
For some reason, this sounds like brainwashing/programming. There is little
or no room for independent thought. My goal is to encourage independent
thought and to help them to develop their own voices based on logic.
Connie
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
this infuriates me. Repeating things ad nauseum to me drives me crazy and
makes me resent the person saying it. Is that just a nice way of encouraging
parents to nag their children?
>>>>> Isn't that what a parent is, anyway, ultimately: a voice inside of achild? <<<<
I don't want to be the voice inside my child. I want my child to develop his
or her own inner voice. I didn't really get past the first couple of
paragraphs. I stopped reading after this passage:
>>>>Think of our religion--how we say the same things over and over: theweekly Torah readings, the prayers. The hope is that those words one day
will enter us, define us, change us--slowly.<<<<<
For some reason, this sounds like brainwashing/programming. There is little
or no room for independent thought. My goal is to encourage independent
thought and to help them to develop their own voices based on logic.
Connie
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
gruvystarchild
~~
I don't want to be the voice inside my child. I want my child to develop his
or her own inner voice. I didn't really get past the first couple of
paragraphs. I stopped reading after this passage:
will enter us, define us, change us--slowly.<<<<<~~
I agree with you Connie...this sounds entirely too much like a more gentle way of trying to mold and shape another human. My goal as a parent is to leave their inner guidance intact!
Ren
radicalunschooling.blogspot.com
I don't want to be the voice inside my child. I want my child to develop his
or her own inner voice. I didn't really get past the first couple of
paragraphs. I stopped reading after this passage:
>>>>Think of our religion--how we say the same things over and over: theweekly Torah readings, the prayers. The hope is that those words one day
will enter us, define us, change us--slowly.<<<<<~~
I agree with you Connie...this sounds entirely too much like a more gentle way of trying to mold and shape another human. My goal as a parent is to leave their inner guidance intact!
Ren
radicalunschooling.blogspot.com
Shira Rocklin
I understand the comparison of water on a rock, that is from the Talmud,
but I think it has been misapplied in that article. If the 'water' had
been compared to 'modeling' our values, and children learning from our
example, I would have agreed. Torah is not something that can be forced
on children, ad nauseum, in the hope that they will eventually love it.
It is something which can permeate their parents lives, and which they
freely choose as they get older, based on true understanding of its
content and value. Having it repeated yearly (weekly torah portions) is
an act of remembrance and love by the Jewish people, not simply an act
of repetition to reinforce, wear down the rock. Forcing a set of
beliefs or repeating them ad nauseum just causes most children to turn
away/ignore/reject/resent (as I experienced). Unfortunately its a big
problem I see in the religious community, adults who clearly aren't
happy with the beliefs that have been forced on them, but who are so
entrenched that they can't see themselves changing or leaving. I see
others who were raised in a way where they were free to choose, or came
to it themselves later in life, and you can see the true joy they
experience in their religious practice.
Something about comparing humans to machines, or drip-irrigation, or
other man-made constructions, always makes me feel a little...
suspicious. We are so much more than machines.
but I think it has been misapplied in that article. If the 'water' had
been compared to 'modeling' our values, and children learning from our
example, I would have agreed. Torah is not something that can be forced
on children, ad nauseum, in the hope that they will eventually love it.
It is something which can permeate their parents lives, and which they
freely choose as they get older, based on true understanding of its
content and value. Having it repeated yearly (weekly torah portions) is
an act of remembrance and love by the Jewish people, not simply an act
of repetition to reinforce, wear down the rock. Forcing a set of
beliefs or repeating them ad nauseum just causes most children to turn
away/ignore/reject/resent (as I experienced). Unfortunately its a big
problem I see in the religious community, adults who clearly aren't
happy with the beliefs that have been forced on them, but who are so
entrenched that they can't see themselves changing or leaving. I see
others who were raised in a way where they were free to choose, or came
to it themselves later in life, and you can see the true joy they
experience in their religious practice.
Something about comparing humans to machines, or drip-irrigation, or
other man-made constructions, always makes me feel a little...
suspicious. We are so much more than machines.
Karen Swanay
I agree. Once again, I was surprised to see this information (though not
un-schooly) it is so much better than the "spare the rod" type of stuff I
grew up with (as an Irish Catholic) now I'm a Jew and am very happy because
I chose not because it was forced on me. This article came from a rather
frum community so I was pretty surprised to find it there. Not that I agree
with it 100%...just surprised.
Karen
"I argue that the Talmud is about the constant struggle to understand."
~Arthur Hertzberg
un-schooly) it is so much better than the "spare the rod" type of stuff I
grew up with (as an Irish Catholic) now I'm a Jew and am very happy because
I chose not because it was forced on me. This article came from a rather
frum community so I was pretty surprised to find it there. Not that I agree
with it 100%...just surprised.
Karen
"I argue that the Talmud is about the constant struggle to understand."
~Arthur Hertzberg
On Wed, Dec 2, 2009 at 8:11 AM, Shira Rocklin <shirarocklin@...> wrote:
>
>
> I understand the comparison of water on a rock, that is from the Talmud,
> but I think it has been misapplied in that article. If the 'water' had
> been compared to 'modeling' our values, and children learning from our
> example, I would have agreed. Torah is not something that can be forced
> on children, ad nauseum, in the hope that they will eventually love it.
> It is something which can permeate their parents lives, and which they
> freely choose as they get older, based on true understanding of its
> content and value. Having it repeated yearly (weekly torah portions) is
> an act of remembrance and love by the Jewish people, not simply an act
> of repetition to reinforce, wear down the rock. Forcing a set of
> beliefs or repeating them ad nauseum just causes most children to turn
> away/ignore/reject/resent (as I experienced). Unfortunately its a big
> problem I see in the religious community, adults who clearly aren't
> happy with the beliefs that have been forced on them, but who are so
> entrenched that they can't see themselves changing or leaving. I see
> others who were raised in a way where they were free to choose, or came
> to it themselves later in life, and you can see the true joy they
> experience in their religious practice.
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Shira Rocklin
Yes, I was surprised to read it as well Karen. I think though that one
of the negative sides of the orthodox Jewish community is that they
often take on the beliefs of the surrounding cultures (as we can see
from Jews of all different origins practice their Judaism differently,
sometimes having incorporated practices from the cultures around them
over time). There are many areas where I wonder why the community at
large has taken on certain fundamental beliefs about 'facts' - medical
practice, raising children, nutrition choices, car culture, nuclear
family homes, etc... I see many families struggle with these things,
and yet not reject them or look for an alternatives. But they are not
part of the Torah, they are not "Jewish" values. They are just the
popular practices of our current culture. I would love to see some
change... and I do! For example, the Jewish Community Teaching Garden I
apprenticed to this past growing season!
http://www.kavanahgarden.blogspot.com/ if you are interested in a peek.
Lots of things are changing... and eventually the alternative parenting
practices out there will be among them! I already see AP practices
being used in frum families sometimes, and it is beautiful to see
parents begin to reflect on how certain practices might bring a
healthier well-being for their children.
Am I allowed to write this sort of thing? Its veering off from
parenting/unschooling quite a bit.
of the negative sides of the orthodox Jewish community is that they
often take on the beliefs of the surrounding cultures (as we can see
from Jews of all different origins practice their Judaism differently,
sometimes having incorporated practices from the cultures around them
over time). There are many areas where I wonder why the community at
large has taken on certain fundamental beliefs about 'facts' - medical
practice, raising children, nutrition choices, car culture, nuclear
family homes, etc... I see many families struggle with these things,
and yet not reject them or look for an alternatives. But they are not
part of the Torah, they are not "Jewish" values. They are just the
popular practices of our current culture. I would love to see some
change... and I do! For example, the Jewish Community Teaching Garden I
apprenticed to this past growing season!
http://www.kavanahgarden.blogspot.com/ if you are interested in a peek.
Lots of things are changing... and eventually the alternative parenting
practices out there will be among them! I already see AP practices
being used in frum families sometimes, and it is beautiful to see
parents begin to reflect on how certain practices might bring a
healthier well-being for their children.
Am I allowed to write this sort of thing? Its veering off from
parenting/unschooling quite a bit.