New here......
ackerman_laura
Hello. My name is Laura and I have been homeschooling my 8 1/2 yo dd all of her life.
I have never bought a formal curriculum and have always just used resources that I find via the net. I have always structured our schooling to be like a school room atmosphere....the desk, charts, etc.
Until recently she never minded. Lately, we have both been not 'feelin the love" with the way I have been "teaching" her.
I have always toyed with the idea of unschooling, but no matter how much I read my insecurites would seep back in and I would start "teaching" her again.
With her being an only child we are able to go and do alot of things...museums, hiking, zoos, etc. She is very worldly in the fact that we have always gone and done alot of stuff so she is very "socialized" and aware of everyday things that most kids aren't.
My biggest concern with unschooling is how do kids learn their multiplication tables, parts of speech, etc. The sort of stuff that you actually have to memorize and learn? Am I just suppose to let her do anything she wants all day in hopes that she finds something constructive to do??
I know for a fact that if I totally left it up to her there would no academics involved at all. She hates math and really doesn't enjoy reading even though she reads at her grade level or above. She couldn't care less about history no matter how it is presented to her.
I need insight and encouragement from someone who has been there and did that. I don't want "school" to be a battle everyday like it has been the past year.
Thanks in advance,
Laura
I have never bought a formal curriculum and have always just used resources that I find via the net. I have always structured our schooling to be like a school room atmosphere....the desk, charts, etc.
Until recently she never minded. Lately, we have both been not 'feelin the love" with the way I have been "teaching" her.
I have always toyed with the idea of unschooling, but no matter how much I read my insecurites would seep back in and I would start "teaching" her again.
With her being an only child we are able to go and do alot of things...museums, hiking, zoos, etc. She is very worldly in the fact that we have always gone and done alot of stuff so she is very "socialized" and aware of everyday things that most kids aren't.
My biggest concern with unschooling is how do kids learn their multiplication tables, parts of speech, etc. The sort of stuff that you actually have to memorize and learn? Am I just suppose to let her do anything she wants all day in hopes that she finds something constructive to do??
I know for a fact that if I totally left it up to her there would no academics involved at all. She hates math and really doesn't enjoy reading even though she reads at her grade level or above. She couldn't care less about history no matter how it is presented to her.
I need insight and encouragement from someone who has been there and did that. I don't want "school" to be a battle everyday like it has been the past year.
Thanks in advance,
Laura
missalexmissalex
http://sandradodd.com/timestables
Plus, someone just posted here (or was it on another list?) Mad Libs = parts of speech.
Not there yet myself, but thought that might help. Good luck!
Alex
(Katya's mom)
Plus, someone just posted here (or was it on another list?) Mad Libs = parts of speech.
Not there yet myself, but thought that might help. Good luck!
Alex
(Katya's mom)
--- In [email protected], "ackerman_laura" <ackerman_laura@...> wrote:
>
> My biggest concern with unschooling is how do kids learn their multiplication tables, parts of speech, etc. The sort of stuff that you actually have to memorize and learn? Am I just suppose to let her do anything she wants all day in hopes that she finds something constructive to do??
Joyce Fetteroll
On Nov 28, 2009, at 6:19 PM, ackerman_laura wrote:
when kids must have them learned.
In real life they can be absorbed as they're being used. They can be
refined by using them, *exactly* the same way kids learn to speak.
There's some good information in the recent "Language?" thread.
http://tinyurl.com/yzydewd
ways of being that help kids explore, help build relationships and
ways that interfere with learning and relationships.
Letting her do anything she wants all day is one piece of
unschooling, but it cuts out the role of the parent. Unschooling
parents are more involved. They do a lot of things ... like museums,
hiking and zoos ;-) They run things through their kids lives they
think the child might like. This will explain it well:
http://sandradodd.com/strewing
get in the way of natural learning. When kids are engaged it means
they're learning something their right now self finds important. It
might look like watching Spongebob over and over. It might look like
playing with Barbies. It might look like planning what to spend
birthday money on.
Kids -- people -- are constantly constructing a web of connections
that helps them see how the world works. So, if a child is in a *rich
environment with engaged parents*, whatever the child chooses to do
is constructive. (The rich environment with engage parents is vital.)
That's one of the hard parts of unschooling! We need to trust that
whatever has captured their imagination is important to them. We may
not understand its purpose or what they're using it for, but the
engagement means they're doing some heavy duty constructing.
What helps is being with them so parents can absorb enough about what
they're into to have conversations about it and to support it and
strew some related things. The way you might do with a friend or your
husband. Don't take over the interest. Let it be theirs. (Unless you
are genuinely interested then it can become a common interest you
share :-)
A good way to make someone hate ice cream is to keep feeding it to
them, making them eat it even when they say stop, keep going even
when they throw up. The negative emotions will associate with the
food and they will avoid it.
In school they need to force feed math and reading and history to
kids, not because the kids need it, but because schools need a
uniform skill set throughout the classroom so the teacher can treat
the room as a single unit and apply a single process to it (curriculum).
These two pages will help you understand not only why unschooling
won't look at all like school but why it must not if you want your
daughter to really learn and not just memorize:
Products of Education
http://sandradodd.com/joyce/products
Why You Can't Let Go
http://sandradodd.com/joyce/talk
(Stop making her read. Really. Listen to books. Watch movies. Snuggle
up together under a blanket with hot chocolate and read *to* her.
Watch movies based on books. Immerse her in a world where her
connections to the printed word are positive and she *will* read what
*she* needs and wants to read on her own. I promise.)
that's not true. While I can rant about how poorly and backwards
science and math instruction are and how they are churning out kids
who have no clue what either subject is really about, history may be
even worse. The majority of people's eyes will glaze over at the
endless stream of dates and politics in history class. Not only does
it turn them off of what is a fascinating subject but they forget as
much as they can as soon as they can.
Until someone has a reason for wanting to know why life was like it
was and why the strings were being pulled one way rather than
another, the dates and politics are meaningless. (I bet the kids who
do like history class are immersed in history that fascinates outside
of class.)
If she enjoys watching movies or reading (or listening to) books set
in historical times, visiting re-enactments, then she enjoys history.
They don't need turned into lessons! The enjoyment of visiting
another world, getting wrapped up in how people used to live is
enough for now. It's like constructing a giant jigsaw puzzle, one
interesting area at a time. The more interesting areas that are
created, the more likely they'll fit together and the more larger
patterns will emerge. But she needs to do the constructing, working
on areas she thinks are interesting. If you try to direct her, it
would be as interesting as someone sitting you down and telling you
what area of their puzzle you need to work on and what order to put
the pieces in. After several years of that, it would very likely turn
you off of jigsaw puzzles for life!
Live life. Fully embrace what you both enjoy. Support and encourage
her interests and explorations, regardless of whether they look like
something educational or something done in school. Live as though
school didn't exist.
Joyce
> My biggest concern with unschooling is how do kids learn theirIn school they need memorized because schools impose a time limit on
> multiplication tables, parts of speech, etc. The sort of stuff that
> you actually have to memorize and learn?
when kids must have them learned.
In real life they can be absorbed as they're being used. They can be
refined by using them, *exactly* the same way kids learn to speak.
There's some good information in the recent "Language?" thread.
http://tinyurl.com/yzydewd
> Am I just suppose to let her do anything she wants all dayThere are no rules or "suppose to"s in unschooling. There are though
ways of being that help kids explore, help build relationships and
ways that interfere with learning and relationships.
Letting her do anything she wants all day is one piece of
unschooling, but it cuts out the role of the parent. Unschooling
parents are more involved. They do a lot of things ... like museums,
hiking and zoos ;-) They run things through their kids lives they
think the child might like. This will explain it well:
http://sandradodd.com/strewing
> in hopes that she finds something constructive to do??Looking for "constructive" activity is one of those actions that will
get in the way of natural learning. When kids are engaged it means
they're learning something their right now self finds important. It
might look like watching Spongebob over and over. It might look like
playing with Barbies. It might look like planning what to spend
birthday money on.
Kids -- people -- are constantly constructing a web of connections
that helps them see how the world works. So, if a child is in a *rich
environment with engaged parents*, whatever the child chooses to do
is constructive. (The rich environment with engage parents is vital.)
That's one of the hard parts of unschooling! We need to trust that
whatever has captured their imagination is important to them. We may
not understand its purpose or what they're using it for, but the
engagement means they're doing some heavy duty constructing.
What helps is being with them so parents can absorb enough about what
they're into to have conversations about it and to support it and
strew some related things. The way you might do with a friend or your
husband. Don't take over the interest. Let it be theirs. (Unless you
are genuinely interested then it can become a common interest you
share :-)
> I know for a fact that if I totally left it up to her there wouldNor should there be if by academics you mean work that resembles school.
> no academics involved at all.
> She hates math and really doesn't enjoy reading even though sheIf she hates them, you need to stop what you're doing and let her heal.
> reads at her grade level or above.
A good way to make someone hate ice cream is to keep feeding it to
them, making them eat it even when they say stop, keep going even
when they throw up. The negative emotions will associate with the
food and they will avoid it.
In school they need to force feed math and reading and history to
kids, not because the kids need it, but because schools need a
uniform skill set throughout the classroom so the teacher can treat
the room as a single unit and apply a single process to it (curriculum).
These two pages will help you understand not only why unschooling
won't look at all like school but why it must not if you want your
daughter to really learn and not just memorize:
Products of Education
http://sandradodd.com/joyce/products
Why You Can't Let Go
http://sandradodd.com/joyce/talk
(Stop making her read. Really. Listen to books. Watch movies. Snuggle
up together under a blanket with hot chocolate and read *to* her.
Watch movies based on books. Immerse her in a world where her
connections to the printed word are positive and she *will* read what
*she* needs and wants to read on her own. I promise.)
> She couldn't care less about history no matter how it is presentedWhile not everyone will love history, I can pretty much guarantee
> to her.
that's not true. While I can rant about how poorly and backwards
science and math instruction are and how they are churning out kids
who have no clue what either subject is really about, history may be
even worse. The majority of people's eyes will glaze over at the
endless stream of dates and politics in history class. Not only does
it turn them off of what is a fascinating subject but they forget as
much as they can as soon as they can.
Until someone has a reason for wanting to know why life was like it
was and why the strings were being pulled one way rather than
another, the dates and politics are meaningless. (I bet the kids who
do like history class are immersed in history that fascinates outside
of class.)
If she enjoys watching movies or reading (or listening to) books set
in historical times, visiting re-enactments, then she enjoys history.
They don't need turned into lessons! The enjoyment of visiting
another world, getting wrapped up in how people used to live is
enough for now. It's like constructing a giant jigsaw puzzle, one
interesting area at a time. The more interesting areas that are
created, the more likely they'll fit together and the more larger
patterns will emerge. But she needs to do the constructing, working
on areas she thinks are interesting. If you try to direct her, it
would be as interesting as someone sitting you down and telling you
what area of their puzzle you need to work on and what order to put
the pieces in. After several years of that, it would very likely turn
you off of jigsaw puzzles for life!
> I don't want "school" to be a battle everyday like it has been theIf you continue to do school, with or without quotes, it's likely to!
> past year.
Live life. Fully embrace what you both enjoy. Support and encourage
her interests and explorations, regardless of whether they look like
something educational or something done in school. Live as though
school didn't exist.
Joyce
plaidpanties666
--- In [email protected], "ackerman_laura" <ackerman_laura@...> wrote:
Ah, you have a misconception! You *don't* have to specifically memorize those things to learn them. Memorizing them doesn't guarantee retention, either, certainly not into adulthood.
So how do people who don't memorize such things learn them? By being interested in those subjects and having a use for the information. Really. If your dd ends up using a lot of multiplication in her life she'll come to remember it easily, the same way a carpenter or mechanic can tell you without hesitation that 3/16 is in between 1/8 and 1/4 - although most of them can't do the math to tell you why! Similarly, most professional writers have a pretty fair grasp on the parts of speech without knowing what a "future perfect" is.
If you look at someone's life through a lens of "constructive" or not, you miss a fair amount. What does your dd enjoy? Offer her more things she does, and may enjoy. Those are things that are "meaningful" to her on a personal level, an emotional and spiritual level. That's something education can't begin to touch, but unschooling can. Offer her those things that bring light to her eyes, whether that be a day of window shopping, or at the zoo, or snuggled under a big blanket watching tv.
Don't "leave her" to do any of those things unless she seems to want solitude - be a part of her life. At her side, you can learn to see what she values, what brings her joy, and she'll learn those things from you, too. Not because you make a lesson of them, but because she'll value you're presence. Kids Want to learn from their parents until we suck the joy out of learning by trying to educate them.
Happily, that joy in learning is so intrinsic to human nature that it can and does grow back with unschooling. There's often a transitional time, where your dd might decompress by wanting to avoid anything "educational" for awhile. You can use that as a time to love her and enjoy her company (and research how people learn naturally if you're freaking out).
My now-16yo stepson was much the same the year we pulled him out of school, at 13. He claimed to hate learning in every form. A year ago, when his bio mom expressed concern about what he was "learning" though, he said "everyone learns all the time, its impossible to not learn anything....except in school". He no longer thinks of learning as something to avoid.
He's learning math through wood and metal working. He's discovered there are things he likes to read - some novels, even. Just last night we were talking about the history of food - doesn't sound very academic, but we touched on the industrial revolution, the effect of immigration on American culture, and the temperance movement, all from me standing in the kitchen making eggnog. Those aren't subjects he wouldn't have cared much about if they'd been "presented" to him, but I wasn't presenting, I was chatting and one thing led to another. That happens a lot in unschooling homes, in the same way it happens a lot with groups of friends. Someone says "hey did you know...?" and then everyone is sharing interesting knowledge or tidbits.
It really depends on what you mean by "academics". If you mean she may never sit down with a textbook again, that's not necessarily a bad thing. They're not always the best resources in the real world! But if she's interested in nature its unlikely that she'll avoid seeking more and new information, it just won't look very much like writing reports. She might dabble in bird identification or want to watch movies about the rainforest. She might wonder about what zoo animals eat and how that differs from what they eat in real life and ask to look that up on the internet - or ask to make real food for a pet or pretend food for a toy. Those are all things my 8yo has done relatively recently.
---Meredith (Mo 8, Ray 16)
>> My biggest concern with unschooling is how do kids learn their multiplication tables, parts of speech, etc. The sort of stuff that you actually have to memorize and learn?****************
Ah, you have a misconception! You *don't* have to specifically memorize those things to learn them. Memorizing them doesn't guarantee retention, either, certainly not into adulthood.
So how do people who don't memorize such things learn them? By being interested in those subjects and having a use for the information. Really. If your dd ends up using a lot of multiplication in her life she'll come to remember it easily, the same way a carpenter or mechanic can tell you without hesitation that 3/16 is in between 1/8 and 1/4 - although most of them can't do the math to tell you why! Similarly, most professional writers have a pretty fair grasp on the parts of speech without knowing what a "future perfect" is.
>>Am I just suppose to let her do anything she wants all day in hopes that she finds something constructive to do??******************
If you look at someone's life through a lens of "constructive" or not, you miss a fair amount. What does your dd enjoy? Offer her more things she does, and may enjoy. Those are things that are "meaningful" to her on a personal level, an emotional and spiritual level. That's something education can't begin to touch, but unschooling can. Offer her those things that bring light to her eyes, whether that be a day of window shopping, or at the zoo, or snuggled under a big blanket watching tv.
Don't "leave her" to do any of those things unless she seems to want solitude - be a part of her life. At her side, you can learn to see what she values, what brings her joy, and she'll learn those things from you, too. Not because you make a lesson of them, but because she'll value you're presence. Kids Want to learn from their parents until we suck the joy out of learning by trying to educate them.
Happily, that joy in learning is so intrinsic to human nature that it can and does grow back with unschooling. There's often a transitional time, where your dd might decompress by wanting to avoid anything "educational" for awhile. You can use that as a time to love her and enjoy her company (and research how people learn naturally if you're freaking out).
>>> I know for a fact that if I totally left it up to her there would no academics involved at all. She hates math and really doesn't enjoy reading even though she reads at her grade level or above. She couldn't care less about history no matter how it is presented to her.**********************
My now-16yo stepson was much the same the year we pulled him out of school, at 13. He claimed to hate learning in every form. A year ago, when his bio mom expressed concern about what he was "learning" though, he said "everyone learns all the time, its impossible to not learn anything....except in school". He no longer thinks of learning as something to avoid.
He's learning math through wood and metal working. He's discovered there are things he likes to read - some novels, even. Just last night we were talking about the history of food - doesn't sound very academic, but we touched on the industrial revolution, the effect of immigration on American culture, and the temperance movement, all from me standing in the kitchen making eggnog. Those aren't subjects he wouldn't have cared much about if they'd been "presented" to him, but I wasn't presenting, I was chatting and one thing led to another. That happens a lot in unschooling homes, in the same way it happens a lot with groups of friends. Someone says "hey did you know...?" and then everyone is sharing interesting knowledge or tidbits.
>>> I know for a fact that if I totally left it up to her there would no academics involved at all.*****************
It really depends on what you mean by "academics". If you mean she may never sit down with a textbook again, that's not necessarily a bad thing. They're not always the best resources in the real world! But if she's interested in nature its unlikely that she'll avoid seeking more and new information, it just won't look very much like writing reports. She might dabble in bird identification or want to watch movies about the rainforest. She might wonder about what zoo animals eat and how that differs from what they eat in real life and ask to look that up on the internet - or ask to make real food for a pet or pretend food for a toy. Those are all things my 8yo has done relatively recently.
>> I don't want "school" to be a battle everyday like it has been the past year.You don't have to battle, but it will involve you stepping back from the idea that learning looks like "education". It looks like someone enjoying an interest! If you look for ways to support your dd's interests, and toss out new ideas now and then, when she seems to be running dry, you won't have nearly so many battles in your life.
---Meredith (Mo 8, Ray 16)
Debra Rossing
> The sort of stuff that you actually have to memorize and learnWhy? Why is that a "have to"? When was the last time you actually USED a
part of speech particularly..."Ok, now I need to use a gerund..."?
There's no need to rotely memorize things that have meaning and purpose
in your life. You naturally absorb them. I have a brownie recipe nearly
memorized simply because I use it so darned much. DH can make a batch of
bagels from scratch without the cookbook because he's done it so much.
Reading, math, etc are all tools to accomplish a goal. When there's a
reason and a purpose for using those tools, it makes sense to work on
those skills. Why is it that schools require memorizing parts of speech
yet don't require daily/weekly hammering practice? Odds are, being able
to use basic home repair tools would be more useful than knowing a
gerund from a participle.
All that 'stuff' you've been doing together - museums, hikes, etc - keep
doing it. Also go to the grocery store, the post office, the bank, sit
together and pay bills (not as a lesson, though - DS often helps simply
because he likes to chat with me as we work...when he was littler he
just liked putting the self-adhesive address labels and stamps on the
envelopes...but he'd leave the licking the envelopes to me because it
tastes yuck lol).
All those "basics" really ARE basic - they are part of everyday life.
And life is not divided into subjects like "history" - when you sit
around the holiday table talking about great-grandma emigrating to the
U.S., that's History. Watching Bugs Bunny is tons of "history" (and
literature and classical music and lots of other stuff as well).
"Academics" are pretty immaterial - they have little to do with actually
learning. Sit back and try to see the learning that happens every day -
it probably looks nothing like school or "academics" because "academics"
are artificial constructs; living life is organic. Kind of like the
difference between commercially mass produced white bread and home made
whole wheat bread. There's only a passing resemblance because there's
wheat and yeast involved. The taste and texture and look are very
different. Similarly, learning organically only has a passing
resemblance to commercial mass produced schooling because some of the
same information is involved. The taste, texture, and look are
different.
DS is 11 and has never been to school, never been schooled at home
either. The other day, we went to a gathering of like-minded folks (but
folks he didn't know well). He introduced himself to someone there by
saying he knows pi to the second 5 (3.141592385) I learned pi to the
first 9 way back when (it was part of the cheer for the high school math
team). But, on "Pi Day" this year (3-14) he picked up the next 4 digits
(which I didn't know and sometimes still need to ask him for). He's
planning to add a couple more digits next year on Pi Day. He knows what
it's used for (he asked) but he just likes knowing it mostly, it's not
yet something he needs to use. He knows nouns and verbs because he likes
Mad Libs. If you ask him about "history" he'll look at you sideways.
But, if you ask him about the Korean War, for example, he can give you
some info because he likes watching MASH episodes on DVD. When my mom
had her aortic valve replaced recently, she needed a cardiac
catheterization first. When I was discussing the situation with DS, he
said "Oh yeah, I saw that on House" - he understood the procedure and
what the purpose was without sitting in a biology or anatomy or whatever
class. We pull out resources AS resources - books with anatomy pictures,
dictionaries, other reference materials, websites, etc. They are used to
answer or supplement questions/curiosities that come up - like why is it
called a 'window'? what's the difference between a cape and a peninsula?
Where is Hungary? Why is Oklahoma 'tornado alley'? Sometimes we know the
answers, sometimes we need to check it out together.
Deb R
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--- In [email protected], "Debra Rossing" <debra.rossing@...> wrote:
But we also make your point beautifully because, in a house full of writers, talking about the ins and outs of language and language terminology *has* meaning and purpose. It is something Frank and I have done in front of our kids joyfully and with great passion for their whole lives. They are also verbally inclined, so a lot of it "took." There was no need to teach anything.
They also see me making an effort to improve my spoken grammar; I correct myself all the time. It's modeling again. If skill in a certain area is important to you, YOU work on it. Have fun with it. Talk about grammar errors you see on TV and in print. Pick up a very fun little book called "Anguished English," which is full of funny examples of poor writing. Create LOL Cat art (because doing things wrong on purpose creates awareness of what is right). Play with words.
Grammar is like math in that it is a subject that people feel a lot of intimidation about. But like math, it can be a fun and natural part of life and learning. Start with the joy of it!
>Clearly you are not hanging out with your tech writers, Deb, and clearly you have never been to my house. :-)
> Why? Why is that a "have to"? When was the last time you actually
> USED a part of speech particularly..."Ok, now I need to use a
> gerund..."?
But we also make your point beautifully because, in a house full of writers, talking about the ins and outs of language and language terminology *has* meaning and purpose. It is something Frank and I have done in front of our kids joyfully and with great passion for their whole lives. They are also verbally inclined, so a lot of it "took." There was no need to teach anything.
They also see me making an effort to improve my spoken grammar; I correct myself all the time. It's modeling again. If skill in a certain area is important to you, YOU work on it. Have fun with it. Talk about grammar errors you see on TV and in print. Pick up a very fun little book called "Anguished English," which is full of funny examples of poor writing. Create LOL Cat art (because doing things wrong on purpose creates awareness of what is right). Play with words.
Grammar is like math in that it is a subject that people feel a lot of intimidation about. But like math, it can be a fun and natural part of life and learning. Start with the joy of it!