Ren Allen

"If unschooling is a year-round, lifelong process,
how do we decide what grade she is in; by age or by academic
achievement?

Our goal is a healthy, happy, well-adjusted daughter, unlimited in
her future prospects - while keeping Mom and Dad out of jail for
failing to follow the rules."


If your goal is a healthy, happy, well-adjusted child, then grades
and academic achievments don't really matter, do they?:)
I think the best way to have a happy, well-adjusted child, is to let
them learn the things that interest them, just as you do (you've
already figured out the forced variety doesn't work). It's all about
providing a rich environment, taking her the places you're all
interested in, meeting a variety of people, and all of you pursuing
what you love.
In a home where parents are pursuing their interests, and inviting
their children to join in whenever possible, enthusiasm and learning
seem to bubble up quite naturally. We don't live our lives with
grades, with focus on academics to satisfy some government authority
(or nosey family members), we live our lives doing the things we
love...ALL of us.

If you go to the "links" section of this website, you will have
hours and hours of reading available on the topic of unschooling.
There are many sites on all things related to unschooling there, but
I recommend starting with SandraDodd.com.

As far as the in-laws, you've got a few years. Don't borrow trouble
from the future, just plant a few seeds here and there. If you're
going to choose the unschooling lifestyle, one of the requirements
is to grow a thick skin and gather some pointed, brief phrases to
shut people up when necessary!!:)

Welcome to the site, and the learning journey with your sweet child
that has already begun.:)

Ren

Ren Allen

"My own ds, always
unschooled, is not yet three, and he is already entirely literate,
reading well,
nearly as fast as I do and including extremely long or
difficult words...he also has broad knowledge in diverse fields:"

I have a couple of things to say about what Millie posted...first of
all, she isn't exaggerating ONE tiny bit about her child!!:) He's
more literate than both my 7 and 11 year old children. It's really
weird to have a 2y.o. reading over your shoulder while you're on the
computer, let me tell you!!

Ok, but the important point I wanted to make is that unschooling is
not result oriented. Millie's child reads at 2. I have a child that
is really a beginning reader for all intents and purposes, at the
age of 11. It's all good.
Whether your child does things "early" or "late" according to the
school system, it doesn't matter to unschoolers. What matters is a
life of joy, pursuing that which we love.
Some kids will do things that society worships (like reading) at
very young ages, others will not. What I love about these unschooled
minds, is that they don't have to be labeled, graded or compared to
other people. They can SHINE (Anne Ohman's term) for who they are,
right now, today.
What a beautiful gift.

I'm sure you already realized this Jeff, but I just didn't want a
newbie thinking that kids will start reading at 2 or 3 just because
they're "unschoolers" (in reality, they're just being toddlers at
that age). It's about your precious child being who she is, and all
of you discovering new things together.

Ren

jeff_legrange

Thanks for your reply, Ren.

Grades and achievement don't really matter much to me. I was a "B"
student all through school while rarely cracking a book, and NEVER
doing homework. All I worry about in this regard is her future vis-a-
vis the rest of society. After all, homeschoolers/unschoolers do not
live in a vaccuum. Do we just "pick" a "grade" she is in based on
her age? As to the government, I have no problem with fudging
their "required" documentation. In my state, all they require is a
yearly intent letter, and monthly attendence records. The rest is
stuff we are required to do/keep on file at home.

My wife and I have a very active lifestyle, with numerous and widely
varied interests. I am positive that there is ample opportunity
therein for my daughter to learn and grow. She will have mountain of
reading materials, and a computer, and video games if she likes
them. As to computer use, should I make a typing tutor program
available, our wait until she asks for one?

As to the in-laws, I have already planted the homeschooling seed.
They weren't really thrilled with the prospect, but seemed to
understand my reasoning. The unschooling model.... ????

As to the thick skin, I grew one long ago - I have never really
cared what other people think of me. My wife, OTOH, is a people
pleaser and has real difficulty in defending herself and her
choices. Maybe she'll learn a new skill as well.

Thanks again!
Jeff

--- In [email protected], "Ren Allen"
<starsuncloud@n...> wrote:

> If your goal is a healthy, happy, well-adjusted child, then grades
> and academic achievments don't really matter, do they?:)
> I think the best way to have a happy, well-adjusted child, is to
let
> them learn the things that interest them, just as you do (you've
> already figured out the forced variety doesn't work). It's all
about
> providing a rich environment, taking her the places you're all
> interested in, meeting a variety of people, and all of you
pursuing
> what you love.
> In a home where parents are pursuing their interests, and inviting
> their children to join in whenever possible, enthusiasm and
learning
> seem to bubble up quite naturally. We don't live our lives with
> grades, with focus on academics to satisfy some government
authority
> (or nosey family members), we live our lives doing the things we
> love...ALL of us.
>
> If you go to the "links" section of this website, you will have
> hours and hours of reading available on the topic of unschooling.
> There are many sites on all things related to unschooling there,
but
> I recommend starting with SandraDodd.com.
>
> As far as the in-laws, you've got a few years. Don't borrow
trouble
> from the future, just plant a few seeds here and there. If you're
> going to choose the unschooling lifestyle, one of the requirements
> is to grow a thick skin and gather some pointed, brief phrases to
> shut people up when necessary!!:)
>
> Welcome to the site, and the learning journey with your sweet
child
> that has already begun.:)
>
> Ren

Angela White

> My wife, OTOH, is a people
> pleaser and has real difficulty in defending herself and her
> choices. Maybe she'll learn a new skill as well.
>
> Thanks again!
> Jeff
>
Hi Jeff,
it was interesting following this thread. You are certainly on the ball
with your research. My dd was 5yo before I got into it.
I did notice some comments from you that made me react. The above is
one, another one was on your wife not wanting to read much and your
wife maybe learning that learning can be fun. My impression is from
these that you are dissatisfied with your wife's choices and way of
behaving in some circumstances.
the bit on unschooling that I have picked up seems to say that we
should learn to accept our children the way they are. To accept them
completely also means accepting if they don't do the super things, the
reading, the learning the way we'd like them to, doesn't it? Now I'm
not saying that I'm neccesarily very good at these things (yet). But
if we agree with this statement, should we not also extent the same
acceptance and freedom to other people, e.g. your wife?
I am the type of person that reads all the time and needs a lot of
research and feed back until I settle comfortably on something. I tend
to look into things deeply and mull over things and I waver for quite a
while until I'm settled. It is sometimes not so easy to 'defend one's
choices' when oneself still feels new and raw at something. I often
have no problem with things in theory, but the practice and reality
often give me more to chew. What I'm trying to say is: maybe just
accept that your wife is different. That it is not 'better' to read
lots, just that you are reading lots and your wife doesn't. You are
different that's all. You have strength and she has different
strengths.E.g. I read lots and my girl friend doesn't read and never
has, apart may be form the occasional cook book :-) She runs a
successful horse tracking business and is on the go from dawn to dusk.
So far she hasn't felt the need for extended reading and I have to
admit she is doing fine, having a lot of fun. Whereas I'm trying to get
my head around my 14yo dd freedom to not help with house hold chores.
Not so much fun so far :-)
You never know, your baby might take after your wife ???
Angela

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Ren Allen

"Now I'm
not saying that I'm neccesarily very good at these things (yet). But
if we agree with this statement, should we not also extent the same
acceptance and freedom to other people, e.g. your wife?"

I disagree. As adults, we CHOSE to have children, they didn't choose
their parents. If we want to provide a very nurturing, interesting
environment, it certainly helps to look at the qualities in your
mate that may hinder the process.
This doesn't mean we aren't accepting where they are, it means there
needs to be some dialogue about how to avoid passing our own damage
and hang ups on to our free children.

If I had simply "accepted" my dh where he was, I wouldn't have the
unschooling supportive partner I have today. I was unwilling to go
along with his ideas, I was NOT willing to just accept where he was
and I let him know. Because I was unwilling to back down about how
we would treat the children (I told him he could continue to do the
damage, but I would NOT be party to it) things changed.

There was a level of acceptance as far as my not being able to
change him, his own changes had to happen in their own time. But I
certainly was not aiding and abetting.

I got the impression that Jeff is completely accepting of where his
wife is, but also aware of the things that could be a problem in an
unschooling household. His wife sounds like someone that was
INCREDIBLY hurt by the school system and could benefit from all the
healing power of unschooling. I have NO doubt she will find many
wounds healed through unschooling her own child, as many of us here
did.
I don't think being aware of unschooling blockages or potential
problems means we don't accept our partners for who they are. It
does mean you need to find ways to help that partner avoid passing
the wound on to their child.

Ren

Deb Lewis

***Grades and achievement don't really matter much to me.***
<snip>
***All I worry about in this regard is her future vis-a-vis the rest of
society.***

Your daughter will be a better and happier person if she grows up to
believe she is just as she should be. Comparisons hurt. People learn
what they need to learn to live and be happy. What you need might not be
what I need. What your daughter needs might not be what little Sally Sue
needs.


***After all, homeschoolers/unschoolers do not
live in a vaccuum. Do we just "pick" a "grade" she is in based on
her age? ***

Grades are a vacuum. They suck at you until you feel either superior to
others or desperately inadequate. They suck at parents until they change
the way a parent sees a child, either as full of potential (which is
unfair and creates pressure) or as lacking, in need of repair. Please
don't do this to your daughter.

She has the chance to grow up never being judged as "ahead" or "behind".
She can be a person living her life without the emotional stress of
arbitrary assessments from others.

And since unschoolers don't live in a vacuum she will have a much more
fun filled and interesting life than the tested and graded 8:00 AM to
3:00 PM schooled kids who have two hours of homework every night. How do
you grade another person's life? What right do you have to even want
to?

***My wife, OTOH, is a people pleaser and has real difficulty in
defending herself and her
choices. ***

It can be hard. When people make judgements about the most important
things in our lives, it hurts. If her family gives her a D minus in
parenting how will you comfort her? <g>

Deb Lewis

soggyboysmom

--- In [email protected], "Ren Allen"
<starsuncloud@n...> wrote:
>> As far as the in-laws, you've got a few years. Don't borrow
trouble from the future, just plant a few seeds here and there. If
you're going to choose the unschooling lifestyle, one of the
requirements is to grow a thick skin and gather some pointed, brief
phrases to shut people up when necessary!!:)>
> Ren

One thing we did, since we decided way early on too, was to just
say "homeschooling" unless we were in a homeschooling/unschooling
environment (like this list or our support group or wherever),
places they were already somewhat familiar with the term and not
scared by it. We'd answer questions with what we were doing
(whatever it happened to be at the time) - not
necessarily "academic" stuff either (playing in the
water "experiment" - DS term for it - was a biggie in the summer).
Once DS was legally "school age", we started using "unschooling"
interchangeably with "homeschooling" then switched over entirely
when referring to what we're doing (we still use "homeschool" when
referring to our inclusive, mostly eclectic support group and co-op
stuff since it isn't all unschoolers). Here's the point of this
longwindedness: since my family had never known, in intimate terms,
what homeschoolers do, whatever we do became the "de facto" things
that homeschoolers do. So then, since they could see that DS was
loving life and livin' large, changing terminology was not an issue.

We've also found that 3 things are also useful when dealing with
other people:

ask Why? a lot - Why do you think we have to use this or that book
or curriculum? Why do kids have to go to school to learn to read?
Why, Why, Why - sounds a lot like a 2 yr old but it forces the
questioner to examine their pre-conceived notions (if they are at
all willing to)

Quote applicable statutes - it sounds really official and that
satisfies some people "We're raising him according to CGS 10-184
which state..."

The Bean Dip Defense: "Thank you for your concern. This is working
for us. Please pass the bean dip."

Jeff LeGrange

I think you may have misunderstood my comments.

I am in no way dissatisfied with my wife's educational skills or personality. The way she is, is the way she is, and I couldn't love her any more than I do. We are like the two side of the same coin - different, but complimentary.

My point was that a) she is well aware that she didn't do well in the cruddy school system here, and b) she has never been able to express her true feelings and desires to anyone but myself and her little brother. She has never been able to tell her parents (or most anyone else) "that is just none of your business".

She is as intellegent as anyone I have ever met, she has just been failed miserably by the county schools and by her parents (educationally speaking). She is one of those folks that defaults to "I just can't do that" and is really astounded when she discovers that she can.

Thanks for your reply.

Jeff
Angela White <wordshop@...> wrote:
> My wife, OTOH, is a people
> pleaser and has real difficulty in defending herself and her
> choices. Maybe she'll learn a new skill as well.
>
> Thanks again!
> Jeff
>
Hi Jeff,
it was interesting following this thread. You are certainly on the ball
with your research. My dd was 5yo before I got into it.
I did notice some comments from you that made me react. The above is
one, another one was on your wife not wanting to read much and your
wife maybe learning that learning can be fun. My impression is from
these that you are dissatisfied with your wife's choices and way of
behaving in some circumstances.
the bit on unschooling that I have picked up seems to say that we
should learn to accept our children the way they are. To accept them
completely also means accepting if they don't do the super things, the
reading, the learning the way we'd like them to, doesn't it? Now I'm
not saying that I'm neccesarily very good at these things (yet). But
if we agree with this statement, should we not also extent the same
acceptance and freedom to other people, e.g. your wife?
I am the type of person that reads all the time and needs a lot of
research and feed back until I settle comfortably on something. I tend
to look into things deeply and mull over things and I waver for quite a
while until I'm settled. It is sometimes not so easy to 'defend one's
choices' when oneself still feels new and raw at something. I often
have no problem with things in theory, but the practice and reality
often give me more to chew. What I'm trying to say is: maybe just
accept that your wife is different. That it is not 'better' to read
lots, just that you are reading lots and your wife doesn't. You are
different that's all. You have strength and she has different
strengths.E.g. I read lots and my girl friend doesn't read and never
has, apart may be form the occasional cook book :-) She runs a
successful horse tracking business and is on the go from dawn to dusk.
So far she hasn't felt the need for extended reading and I have to
admit she is doing fine, having a lot of fun. Whereas I'm trying to get
my head around my 14yo dd freedom to not help with house hold chores.
Not so much fun so far :-)
You never know, your baby might take after your wife ???
Angela

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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Jeff LeGrange

Thanks you, Ren.

That was exactly what I was trying to impart to the list.

Jeff

Ren Allen <starsuncloud@...> wrote:
I got the impression that Jeff is completely accepting of where his
wife is, but also aware of the things that could be a problem in an
unschooling household. His wife sounds like someone that was
INCREDIBLY hurt by the school system and could benefit from all the
healing power of unschooling. I have NO doubt she will find many
wounds healed through unschooling her own child, as many of us here
did.
I don't think being aware of unschooling blockages or potential
problems means we don't accept our partners for who they are. It
does mean you need to find ways to help that partner avoid passing
the wound on to their child.

Ren




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huntmom1996

--- In [email protected], "jeff_legrange"
jeff_legrange@y...> wrote:
******As to computer use, should I make a typing tutor program
available, our wait until she asks for one?******

I am relatively new to unschooling, but have never found a typing
program that works as well as ample time on the computer and
motivation to IM and email with friends! Or write a novel.....or
whatever!:)

Congratulations!
Jessica

Dana Matt

We found a Spongebob typing game that is fun!

Dana


> ******As to computer use, should I make a typing
> tutor program
> available, our wait until she asks for one?******




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Jeff LeGrange

Thanks, Deb for your reply:

m> wrote:
***Your daughter will be a better and happier person if she grows up to believe she is just as she should be. Comparisons hurt. ***

Yes, comparisons CAN hurt. That is one of the reasons that we are considering the unschooling method. However, there are alot more "schoolers" than there are unschoolers - and comparisons of relative relative value/achievement take place all the time out in the wider society. Scouting, Church activities, College admissions, employment, etc. ALL have achievement requirements/goals. Unless our daughter plans to spend the rest of her life out in the Montana badlands, comparisons and achievements and attaining goals will come up; very likely often.

IMHO, the REAL trick is to let the kids determine their own path without undue pressure, and allow them to learn life's lessons at their own pace. The parent that shields their child from all hurt feelings is NOT preparing them for life outside the unschooling family/society.



*** Grades are a vacuum. They suck at you until you feel either superior to others or desperately inadequate. They suck at parents until they change the way a parent sees a child, either as full of potential (which is unfair and creates pressure) or as lacking, in need of repair. Please don't do this to your daughter. ****


We have no intention of grading our daughter. My question of "grade" meant grade level. That will be a commonly asked question throughout her "school years", even if we are unschooling. So much depends on the grade level question. When must we administer standardized testing, etc. This has nothing, IMO, whatever to do with being "ahead or behind", or assigning a value to a persons life. I am wondering if you have the ability to see the forest for the trees?


***It can be hard. When people make judgements about the most important things in our lives, it hurts. If her family gives her a D minus in parenting how will you comfort her?***


I'll just have to do my best. Mostly, I say that other peoples opinions are just that - opinions. The only power others have to hurt you is that which you give them.

I really appreciate your comments, Deb. I really hope you can understand where I am coming from. I want to give my child(ren) the best possible "education"; I am convinced that I can do a better job than the public school system, and I am convinced that the best possible outcome can be obtained from unschooling.

However, if "unschooling" means never comparing, never competing, never striving, never having your feelings hurt, and always living apart for the rest of society, then maybe unschooling is NOT for us.


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Dana Matt

>
> *** Grades are a vacuum. They suck at you until you
> feel either superior to others or desperately
> inadequate. They suck at parents until they change
> the way a parent sees a child, either as full of
> potential (which is unfair and creates pressure) or
> as lacking, in need of repair. Please don't do this
> to your daughter. ****
>
>
> We have no intention of grading our daughter. My
> question of "grade" meant grade level. That will be
> a commonly asked question throughout her "school
> years", even if we are unschooling. So much depends
> on the grade level question. When must we administer
> standardized testing, etc. This has nothing, IMO,
> whatever to do with being "ahead or behind", or
> assigning a value to a persons life. I am wondering
> if you have the ability to see the forest for the
> trees?
>
>
Jeff,
My kids are 12 and 6.5, and we have never had to give
information of "grade" for them. We are asked
CONSTANTLY, believe me, but we don't HAVE to give it.
My 12 yo says "I don't have a grade, but I'm 12 years
old"--simple as that. And yes, we WERE living in the
badlands of Montana, but you'd be surprised at how
much life there is just like life anywhere else ;)

Dana
formerly of Montana ;)





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Dana Matt

> ***Your daughter will be a better and happier person
> if she grows up to believe she is just as she should
> be. Comparisons hurt. ***
>
> Yes, comparisons CAN hurt.

Jeff, if you think comparisons only hurt when you are
compared poorly, please take the time to read
"Punished by Rewards" by Alfie Kohn. It also hurts
kids to also be the smartest, the prettiest, the
fastest, the best....

The
> parent that shields their child from all hurt
> feelings is NOT preparing them for life outside the
> unschooling family/society.

Can you give an example? Hypotheically, of course, as
I'm sure your daughter has no hurt feelings yet. When
might it be a good idea for a child to be hurt to
prove to them that life is hard? If they feel
frustrated often, they will be more ready to
assimilate into "normal" life? I agree, that is
probably the case, but why would I want "normal" for
my kids when they could have "extraordinary"?


> However, if "unschooling" means never comparing,
> never competing, never striving, never having your
> feelings hurt, and always living apart for the rest
> of society, then maybe unschooling is NOT for us.
>
If you are an unschooler, you will never be "normal".
You won't get to be classroom helpers or PTA
president, you won't get to "get rid" of your kids for
6 hours a day, people will always be questioning your
motives, your sanity. Almost everyone sends their
kids to school. You have to be ready to be different.

Dana



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Deb Lewis

***...comparisons of relative relative value/achievement take place all
the time out in the wider society.***

Yes, and when a child hasn't had his self esteem damaged by grades and
the threat of the "permanent record" and when he hasn't been the victim
of classroom humiliations and shaming tactics of teachers he is much more
likely to arrive in that wider society a whole person.

If that's all a person could get by unschooling, to get to adulthood
undamaged, that would be enough. But that's only one of the benefits of
unschooling.

***The parent that shields their child from all hurt feelings is NOT
preparing them for life outside the unschooling family/society.***

It is not possible for a parent to shield a child from all hurts. Every
person will experience hurt feelings. It's not the goal of unschooling
parents to shield their children from life experiences.

But school and school dynamics is not real life. School is an artificial
environment that designs it's own arbitrary problems for children to
solve (in one right/acceptable way) under the watchful eye of a judge
who then decide whether that child is good enough to move forward.

So while an unschooling parent won't and can't shield her child from the
natural course of life's hurts she can shield her child from the
unnatural injuries caused by the unnatural conditions of school.

My son might get hurt if he rides his bike, but I don't have to flatten
his tires and loosen his chain in order to make sure he experiences the
whole realm of possibilities while riding. In fact, I always tried to
make sure his bike was in good working condition so that he could avoid
unnecessary hurts. School and grades and everything about the system is
an unnecessary hurt.

***We have no intention of grading our daughter. My question of "grade"
meant grade level. ***

I know what you meant but there is no difference. Being in third grade
means you are better (more than) second grade and not as good as (less
than) fourth grade. It is very difficult for those grade levels not to
translate as personal assessment. Do you believe kids *don't* take it
personally? They do. Kids who are held back are ashamed and
embarrassed. Kids who jump "ahead" are proud and important and under
presser now to stay "ahead."
When people have asked Dylan (twelve years old) what grade he's in he
simply says "I don't go to school." If they persist he tells them he is
philosophically opposed to assigning grades to personal learning.

Just because society might expect the standard answer from your daughter
doesn't mean it's the right answer. It doesn't mean they have a right to
expect it. Conformity is not a goal of unschooling, does not always make
life easier or better and does not contribute positively to personal
growth.

***However, if "unschooling" means never comparing, never competing,
never striving, never having your feelings hurt, and always living apart
for the rest of society, then maybe unschooling is NOT for us.***

This is dramatic and not well thought out. A healthy person could not
live and never strive for what he wanted. Nor would he choose to live a
life apart from society forever, without a very good reason for doing so.
Unschooling can't mean any of those things because those things are
impossible.

As to comparison and competition the difference between those things in
school or out is choice and control.

School in compulsory - a child has no choice about being there and is not
in control of what happens there.

A child in school has no choice about being compared to every other child
in the nation in that grade level. She is measured and graded at every
stage through no choice of her own and cannot choose by what means she is
measured. Through tests she is forced into competition with others in
her grade level all over the world. She cannot choose to opt out of
testing. If she does well in competition she's rewarded with good grades
and special classes and can move forward to the next grade. If she
doesn't compete well she's punished with bad grades, special ed and
being held back.

A person in the real world can choose to put himself in competition with
others. My son can choose to compare himself with others and he has a
choice with what to do with his findings. If he finds himself lacking in
some skill it is not stored in a file and pulled later as a statistic in
order to determine how to treat others of similar skill level.

He can choose to compete with others or he can opt out of competitions.
If he knows he can't do a thing he can say so. He won't get an F. He
will have another chance another day.

***Deb. I really hope you can understand where I am coming from.***

I do. I can. My own baby was new twelve years ago. <g>
I can't come to your house and force you into some unschooling model I've
set for everyone. You are free to live life as you choose and you can
decide how you're going to live with your daughter. All I can do is
share my experience as an unschooling parent. My son is twelve. He's
never been to school. He lives life in the real world and is learning
all the time. I can tell you how he learned to read without lessons. I
can tell you how he learned to count money and make change without math
worksheets. I can tell you how he learned about dinosaurs and the chaos
theory without science class and text books. I can tell you how he
handled Tae Kwon Do competitions and belt tests.

You need to be willing to reexamine what you think you know about
learning if you want to understand unschooling.<g> Life can be lived
without school and without bringing school's altered reality and the
damage it causes into your daughter's life. That part is up to you.

I'm not concerned with my son's education at all. I can say that fairly
shocking thing because I've lived with him long enough to understand he's
learning all the time. It's an unstoppable force and there is *no way*
he'll come to the end of his life and think of himself as "uneducated."
No one he knows thinks of him as "uneducated." He doesn't believe there
is a condition called "uneducated". He only knows there will always be
new things to discover about the world and about himself. He knows he's
capable of learning anything he wants to learn and he knows he can learn
at any time. He has twelve years of experience as proof. <g>

Deb Lewis

Deb Lewis

***Dana formerly of Montana ;)***

Yes, and we miss you!
I still have Emma's Dana and Matt Maghead art on my fridge although your
glasses are slightly askew. <g> I think the cat whacked them.
I always think of Lauren when I eat grapes. (or when I see a camel
cricket in my basement, yum!) <G>

Deb

Robin Clevenger

--- In [email protected], Deb Lewis <ddzimlew@j...>
wrote:
> ***We have no intention of grading our daughter. My question
of "grade"
> meant grade level. ***
>
> I know what you meant but there is no difference. Being in third
grade
> means you are better (more than) second grade and not as good as
(less
> than) fourth grade. It is very difficult for those grade levels
not to
> translate as personal assessment. Do you believe kids *don't* take
it
> personally? They do.

I think it depends on whether they know or care about it or not. We
have to choose a grade level when we register with the state as
homeschoolers (yes, we could've chosen not to register, and that was
a hard choice, but we did end up registering). But that doesn't mean
our son thinks of himself as "a 2nd grader" or knows what "grades"
his other friends are in. If someone randomly asks him what grade
he's in, he just says he's homeschooling and leaves it at that.

There are times when a homeschooler might need to assign a grade
level (for instance, there are classes my kids want to take where
they would have to be lumped into a grade level - like the ballet
class my daughter takes at the community center, or even for Little
League or Soccer, they have to have a grade level), but that doesn't
mean the kids themselves have to know or care about it, it's more of
an administrative hassle that the parents have to go through.

Blue Skies,
-Robin-

Deb Lewis

***My question of "grade" meant grade level. That will be a commonly
asked question throughout her "school years", even if we are
unschooling.***

The only people who have asked Dylan about his grade level were strangers
and acquaintances who had no connection to the school. It never mattered
what grade he was in. Now he's fairly well know in our small town and
though most people here don't know anything about unschooling, the
questions have subsided.

***So much depends on the grade level question. ***

If we count from when my son could have gone to Kindergarten he's been
unschooling for seven years. Technically for five, counting from
compulsory school age in my state. (Montana) Not once has anything he
wanted to do depended on grades. While some groups or clubs he's wanted
to join asked for grade level they were satisfied when I told them he was
homeschooled and we didn't assign grades. He's been in soccer, Karate,
Tae Kwon Do, Judo, piano lessons, etc.

Robin mentions some things her kids wanted to join did want grades so
this must differ from state to state. Dylan has personally never been
hindered in his pursuits by not having a grade level. We have always
successfully skirted the grade issue.

***When must we administer standardized testing, etc. This has nothing,
IMO, whatever to do with being "ahead or behind", or assigning a value to
a persons life.***

How old are third graders, 8-9? Eight or nine years from now things may
not be what they are today. You may live somewhere else, laws might
change, she might choose to go to school in which case the school will be
deciding what grade she's in for you.

***I am wondering if you have the ability to see the forest for the
trees?***

My trees merely decided it was better to keep the school out of the
forest. <g>

Where do you live? Someone on this list might live in your state and
have lots of clever and creative ideas for you.

Deb Lewis

[email protected]

>>>>>>Do we just "pick" a "grade" she is in based on
her age? <<<<<

Grades are for meat and eggs, not children.

Why do you feel the need for a grade?

~Kelly

Lisa H

>>>>>>Do we just "pick" a "grade" she is in based on
her age? <<<<<
Grades are for meat and eggs, not children.
Why do you feel the need for a grade?
~Kelly
*********
In NY we need to identify a grade in our paperwork for the state. It is required to file paperwork the year a child turns six by December. Some folks identify their child as first grade while others indicate kindergarten.
Lisa Heyman


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Deb Lewis

***In NY we need to identify a grade in our paperwork for the state.***

While I feel some irritation at my own state requirements I'm glad to be
living where things are fairly simple.
The county sup requires notification each year if a family is
homeschooling but the law does not specify what the notification must
include. Mine says "I'll be homeschooling my child for the 2004-2005
school year." I do not include his name or age.

The law says I have to keep an attendance record and make it available if
asked. I always wait until asked.

The law also says I have to have an organized course of study and cover
what the schools would cover but there is no provision in the law that
would allow the county superintendent (or anyone) to ask for or about the
course of study or what we're covering.

No portfolio, no assessment, no testing.

If any nice unschoolers would like to move to Deer Lodge, Montana (and
heck! who wouldn't?<G>) there's a house for sale across the street. <beg>

Deb Lewis, in the balmy rockies where it's fifty degrees this AM and the
Blue Jays have moved in on the peanut butter feeders.

Danielle Conger

Aaaaah, Deb, you paint an idyllic picture. If only I didn't know about
all the dog pooh across the street... *eg*

--Danielle

http://www.danielleconger.com/Homeschool/Welcomehome.html



Deb Lewis wrote:

>
>
> No portfolio, no assessment, no testing.
>
> If any nice unschoolers would like to move to Deer Lodge, Montana (and
> heck! who wouldn't?<G>) there's a house for sale across the street. <beg>
>
> Deb Lewis, in the balmy rockies where it's fifty degrees this AM and the
> Blue Jays have moved in on the peanut butter feeders.
>

Deb Lewis

*** If only I didn't know about
all the dog pooh across the street... *eg****

Not true, not true, Danielle. I flung it all into that vacant yard. <G>

Don't s'pose there'll be any takers now though, eh?

Deb

Robyn Coburn

<<<<If any nice unschoolers would like to move to Deer Lodge, Montana (and
heck! who wouldn't?<G>) there's a house for sale across the street.
<beg>>>>>

Tell me more - is there a website for the realtor noted on the For Sale
sign?

I'm not kidding.

Robyn L. Coburn

---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.805 / Virus Database: 547 - Release Date: 12/3/2004

[email protected]

In a message dated 12/12/2004 5:28:38 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
dezigna@... writes:

Tell me more - is there a website for the realtor noted on the For Sale
sign?

I'm not kidding.



<<<

I bet if you google "Deer Lodge, MT house sale" it would pop up. <g> How
many houses could possibly be for sale in Deer Lodge? <BWG>

~K


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Deb Lewis

***How many houses could possibly be for sale in Deer Lodge? <BWG>***

Oh, taking pot shots at the hick, eh? <BWG>

There are a lot of houses for sale here but if I have to explain why I'll
never get Robyn to come, so shush, you trouble maker.

I haven't found a picture of the house near me but this one's for sale a
couple blocks down the street and across from the Library.
Cute little job. <g> About the right size for the Lovejoy family and
Cameron could get a job with the hemp lady. <g>

http://www.deerlodgemt.com/images/2002/Outside_view_from_corner.JPG


Deb, shamefully attempting to coerce unschoolers.

Dana Matt

I can vouch for Deb--she lives in a totally cute
neighborhood full of totally cute houses :)

And Deer Lodge isn't SO bad ;)

Dana


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Robyn Coburn

<<<<<There are a lot of houses for sale here but if I have to explain why
I'll
never get Robyn to come, so shush, you trouble maker. >>>>>

I knew that somehow or other this would come down to arm wrestling with
Kelly! ;)

Robyn

---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
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[email protected]

wow..........what does a house like that go for?



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 12/14/2004 9:39:38 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
Luckiebyrd@... writes:

wow..........what does a house like that go for? <<<<

Already looked into it. $750,0000.00 Just a tad out of our price
range---even WITH the plus of having Deb just down the street! <bwg>

~Kelly


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]