Newbie with a relatively clean slate.
jeff_legrange
Hi all. My name is Jeff. I am 37 years old, married 3 years to my
wife Jane, who is 27 years old. We have a 2-week-old daughter named
Bree. We are strongly considering home schooling/unschooling for
many, widely varied, reasons. Since she is so young, we'd like to be
able to "get our ducks in a row" before she is "supposed" to start
school, and to ensure that we don't make fatal errors in judgment
that will cause later problems.
For background, let me tell you a little about our family. My wife
and I are both products of the public education system; in fact, my
wife went through the school system in the county where we now
reside. We both HATED "school": I did well, however, and went on to
a bachelor's degree. My wife didn't do so well in school, dropping
out in her senior year and took a GED. I love to read for pleasure,
Jane can barely stand to read a magazine article or a cookbook
recipe. Emails and/or something she really wants to know are her
limits. (She can read well; to the college level - she just doesn't
like to.) I am firmly of the opinion that most of the things I know
of lasting value, were all learned independently; outside the
traditional educational system, and that learning is an unending
process. We are already convinced that public education generally,
and our county school system particularly, is no place for our
darling Bree.
We are Christians, but not of the fundamentalist/born-again stripe.
We are generally politically conservative, but we both have a good
mix of liberal beliefs thrown in. I am the high-speed, low-drag,
uber-organized type; Jane is the start-slow and taper off type,
believing that most things take care of themselves. All in all, I'd
like to think we are just average folks. My sister is a Montessori
teacher, so we have some knowledge of non-traditional educational
models; AND their better than average results. My parents are
comfortable with non-traditional methods; hers are the Ozzie and
Harriet types right out of the 1950's - we can expect SERIOUS
opposition from them if we don't stick Bree in the local elementary
school/daycare depot, have bedtimes, or allow her to eat
whatever/whenever she wants.
Several questions to you experienced unschoolers out there. First,
where does one start? How do we "teach" the basic fundamentals? By
that I mean, beyond-bedtime-story reading, spelling, writing, and
basic arithmetic. My state requires a yearly written assessment of
Reading, Language Arts, Math, Science, and Social Studies, and
standardized testing every three years starting at the end of third
grade. How does the unschooling model conform to these
requirements? What do we say to Jane's parents when they pitch the
inevitable fit? If unschooling is a year-round, lifelong process,
how do we decide what grade she is in; by age or by academic
achievement?
Our goal is a healthy, happy, well-adjusted daughter, unlimited in
her future prospects - while keeping Mom and Dad out of jail for
failing to follow the rules. Any advice, resources, etc. that you
folks can recommend would be gratefully received.
Jeff
wife Jane, who is 27 years old. We have a 2-week-old daughter named
Bree. We are strongly considering home schooling/unschooling for
many, widely varied, reasons. Since she is so young, we'd like to be
able to "get our ducks in a row" before she is "supposed" to start
school, and to ensure that we don't make fatal errors in judgment
that will cause later problems.
For background, let me tell you a little about our family. My wife
and I are both products of the public education system; in fact, my
wife went through the school system in the county where we now
reside. We both HATED "school": I did well, however, and went on to
a bachelor's degree. My wife didn't do so well in school, dropping
out in her senior year and took a GED. I love to read for pleasure,
Jane can barely stand to read a magazine article or a cookbook
recipe. Emails and/or something she really wants to know are her
limits. (She can read well; to the college level - she just doesn't
like to.) I am firmly of the opinion that most of the things I know
of lasting value, were all learned independently; outside the
traditional educational system, and that learning is an unending
process. We are already convinced that public education generally,
and our county school system particularly, is no place for our
darling Bree.
We are Christians, but not of the fundamentalist/born-again stripe.
We are generally politically conservative, but we both have a good
mix of liberal beliefs thrown in. I am the high-speed, low-drag,
uber-organized type; Jane is the start-slow and taper off type,
believing that most things take care of themselves. All in all, I'd
like to think we are just average folks. My sister is a Montessori
teacher, so we have some knowledge of non-traditional educational
models; AND their better than average results. My parents are
comfortable with non-traditional methods; hers are the Ozzie and
Harriet types right out of the 1950's - we can expect SERIOUS
opposition from them if we don't stick Bree in the local elementary
school/daycare depot, have bedtimes, or allow her to eat
whatever/whenever she wants.
Several questions to you experienced unschoolers out there. First,
where does one start? How do we "teach" the basic fundamentals? By
that I mean, beyond-bedtime-story reading, spelling, writing, and
basic arithmetic. My state requires a yearly written assessment of
Reading, Language Arts, Math, Science, and Social Studies, and
standardized testing every three years starting at the end of third
grade. How does the unschooling model conform to these
requirements? What do we say to Jane's parents when they pitch the
inevitable fit? If unschooling is a year-round, lifelong process,
how do we decide what grade she is in; by age or by academic
achievement?
Our goal is a healthy, happy, well-adjusted daughter, unlimited in
her future prospects - while keeping Mom and Dad out of jail for
failing to follow the rules. Any advice, resources, etc. that you
folks can recommend would be gratefully received.
Jeff
Millie Rosa
Hi Jeff,
Congratulations on your new little baby!
It is good that you are learning about unschooling so early; this philosophy encompasses your (and your child's) whole life, and it will be a wonderful gift to her to have complete freedom from birth! Regarding your question about how to "teach" her the fundamentals, let me assure you that unschooling works. You will soon see your dd's innate drive to learn and its strength. Trust it. She will learn everything that she needs to learn. You will be able to help her by answering her questions, showing her how to seek answers on her own. You will not ever need to introduce her to topics for which she hasn't expressed an interest. If you haven't devoured Sandra Dodd's site yet, I encourage you to do so, and I am sure many others will do the same. The beauty of unschooling is that you relax and trust that learning is inevitable. My own ds, always unschooled, is not yet three, and he is already entirely literate, reading well, nearly as fast as I do and including extremely long or
difficult words...he also has broad knowledge in diverse fields: I would go so far as to call him an expert on the Solar System, rocks and minerals, and mushrooms; and he is intimate w maps on all levels from the geological survey of our immediate area to the map of the world and can id most of the US states and over half of the countries of the world. He is computer literate as well. This is all from following his own interests and having his questions answered (from the time he could point at everything and only say "Dis?"), and I assure you I have never once sat him down and said "Okay, son, let's learn about x now." My only part in this, aside from as I said, answering many questions, has been reading to him whenever he desired. I have also done some strewing; I purchased the Children's World Atlas after I noticed him studying a map in a waiting area, and have made other such purchases...he is always welcome to do what he likes with these materials (and he does choose to
study them). But it is important for me to not value his reading the atlas, say, over playing on the computer, or watching TV, as there is tremendous value and learning opportunities in every aspect of life.
Jeff, I would like to advise you to not concern yourself much with your state laws at this point. I understand why you are concerned and interested, and I myself felt this way. But there are several years before your child is of compulsary school age, and in that time these standards needn't concern you at all (and then of course there are many years beyond that before she would be "3rd grade" age). The thing is, states' laws change. Homeschooling is becoming more and more widespread and accepted and you may find that the laws in your state are totally different once your child reaches that age. You will be able to unschool your daughter wherever you live and you will be able to figure out the best way to deal w your state when that time comes. When I started researching states laws I didn't know that I would be living in a different state now (so all that research was really pointless). But, I did happen to research the laws of the state where I now reside, as it was
bordering my own. At that time, in this state (MS), the laws stated that to homeschool your children you needed to be a certified tutor and submit all sorts of records and logs, etc. Now (less than 3 years later) this state has one of the most relaxed homeschooling laws and all a parent must do is send in a note once a year stating the children's names and that they will homeschool.
Anyway, Jeff, enjoy your daughter and be amazed as you watch her learn every day of her life. You don't have to teach her; your job is to protect her freedom and allow the relaxed environment where learning comes easily.
Good luck on your journey together!
Millie
by the riverside
---------------------------------
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Congratulations on your new little baby!
It is good that you are learning about unschooling so early; this philosophy encompasses your (and your child's) whole life, and it will be a wonderful gift to her to have complete freedom from birth! Regarding your question about how to "teach" her the fundamentals, let me assure you that unschooling works. You will soon see your dd's innate drive to learn and its strength. Trust it. She will learn everything that she needs to learn. You will be able to help her by answering her questions, showing her how to seek answers on her own. You will not ever need to introduce her to topics for which she hasn't expressed an interest. If you haven't devoured Sandra Dodd's site yet, I encourage you to do so, and I am sure many others will do the same. The beauty of unschooling is that you relax and trust that learning is inevitable. My own ds, always unschooled, is not yet three, and he is already entirely literate, reading well, nearly as fast as I do and including extremely long or
difficult words...he also has broad knowledge in diverse fields: I would go so far as to call him an expert on the Solar System, rocks and minerals, and mushrooms; and he is intimate w maps on all levels from the geological survey of our immediate area to the map of the world and can id most of the US states and over half of the countries of the world. He is computer literate as well. This is all from following his own interests and having his questions answered (from the time he could point at everything and only say "Dis?"), and I assure you I have never once sat him down and said "Okay, son, let's learn about x now." My only part in this, aside from as I said, answering many questions, has been reading to him whenever he desired. I have also done some strewing; I purchased the Children's World Atlas after I noticed him studying a map in a waiting area, and have made other such purchases...he is always welcome to do what he likes with these materials (and he does choose to
study them). But it is important for me to not value his reading the atlas, say, over playing on the computer, or watching TV, as there is tremendous value and learning opportunities in every aspect of life.
Jeff, I would like to advise you to not concern yourself much with your state laws at this point. I understand why you are concerned and interested, and I myself felt this way. But there are several years before your child is of compulsary school age, and in that time these standards needn't concern you at all (and then of course there are many years beyond that before she would be "3rd grade" age). The thing is, states' laws change. Homeschooling is becoming more and more widespread and accepted and you may find that the laws in your state are totally different once your child reaches that age. You will be able to unschool your daughter wherever you live and you will be able to figure out the best way to deal w your state when that time comes. When I started researching states laws I didn't know that I would be living in a different state now (so all that research was really pointless). But, I did happen to research the laws of the state where I now reside, as it was
bordering my own. At that time, in this state (MS), the laws stated that to homeschool your children you needed to be a certified tutor and submit all sorts of records and logs, etc. Now (less than 3 years later) this state has one of the most relaxed homeschooling laws and all a parent must do is send in a note once a year stating the children's names and that they will homeschool.
Anyway, Jeff, enjoy your daughter and be amazed as you watch her learn every day of her life. You don't have to teach her; your job is to protect her freedom and allow the relaxed environment where learning comes easily.
Good luck on your journey together!
Millie
by the riverside
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Robyn Coburn
<<<<<Hi all. My name is Jeff. I am 37 years old, married 3 years to my
wife Jane, who is 27 years old. We have a 2-week-old daughter named
Bree. We are strongly considering home schooling/unschooling for
many, widely varied, reasons. Since she is so young, we'd like to be
able to "get our ducks in a row" before she is "supposed" to start
school, and to ensure that we don't make fatal errors in judgment
that will cause later problems.>>>>>>
Hi Jeff, welcome and congratulations.
I would heartily endorse everything that Millie said, and I just want to
pass on a couple of website addresses. Just breathe and relax. You have time
to do all this reading.
The main key is just watching your wondrous dd and staying in the moment,
letting go of any agendas, and avoiding (if you can) getting caught up in
looking for future outcomes. Most parents, especially ones who have made
their way here, don't usually make "fatal errors in judgment", just ordinary
human errors and an apology and striving to do better next time work
wonders. Children are so forgiving and wise. They show us what they need if
we only listen and watch.
For some general attachment/mindful parenting concepts:
www.naturalchild.org (lots of short articles that might appeal to dw)
"The Aware Baby" by Aletha Solter is a book that may stretch your concept of
what a baby is mentally or emotionally capable of communicating,
particularly the concept of different types of crying.
www.lalecheleague.org
For Unschooling specific information:
www.Sandradodd.com/unschooling
www.danielleconger.com/Homeschool/Welcomehome.html
www.unschooling.com
www.unschooling.info/forum
Also the archives on this list.
Some oft recommended books about education, learning and schools:
Anything (everything!) by John Holt - get the most recent editions with his
final annotations.
"The Unschooling Handbook" by Mary Griffith
"Punished by Rewards" by Alfie Kohn ( www.alfiekohn.org )
"Dumbing Us Down" and others by John Taylor Gatto - especially good to rock
the thinking of in-laws who think schools are all that.
"The Book of Learning and Forgetting" by ?? (I forget)
"The Unprocessed Child" by Valerie Fitzenreiter
There are more at Sandra's site and that others will suggest too. Sandra has
some links to non-spanking Christian websites also.
You may also enjoy the following lists:
Always Unschooled is for the parents of "pre-school" age children.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AlwaysUnschooled/
These are the two Unschooling discussion groups for men that my dh is
subscribed to. They are not hugely busy but he enjoys them.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/UnschoolingDads/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SSUDs/
Finally, although I urge you to put any thoughts about the law on to the
back burner for now, this website has all the State laws, and contact
information for local groups and organizations. In a little while you may
want to join a local inclusive or unschooling support group that has play
dates and park days.
www.nhen.org
Robyn L. Coburn
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wife Jane, who is 27 years old. We have a 2-week-old daughter named
Bree. We are strongly considering home schooling/unschooling for
many, widely varied, reasons. Since she is so young, we'd like to be
able to "get our ducks in a row" before she is "supposed" to start
school, and to ensure that we don't make fatal errors in judgment
that will cause later problems.>>>>>>
Hi Jeff, welcome and congratulations.
I would heartily endorse everything that Millie said, and I just want to
pass on a couple of website addresses. Just breathe and relax. You have time
to do all this reading.
The main key is just watching your wondrous dd and staying in the moment,
letting go of any agendas, and avoiding (if you can) getting caught up in
looking for future outcomes. Most parents, especially ones who have made
their way here, don't usually make "fatal errors in judgment", just ordinary
human errors and an apology and striving to do better next time work
wonders. Children are so forgiving and wise. They show us what they need if
we only listen and watch.
For some general attachment/mindful parenting concepts:
www.naturalchild.org (lots of short articles that might appeal to dw)
"The Aware Baby" by Aletha Solter is a book that may stretch your concept of
what a baby is mentally or emotionally capable of communicating,
particularly the concept of different types of crying.
www.lalecheleague.org
For Unschooling specific information:
www.Sandradodd.com/unschooling
www.danielleconger.com/Homeschool/Welcomehome.html
www.unschooling.com
www.unschooling.info/forum
Also the archives on this list.
Some oft recommended books about education, learning and schools:
Anything (everything!) by John Holt - get the most recent editions with his
final annotations.
"The Unschooling Handbook" by Mary Griffith
"Punished by Rewards" by Alfie Kohn ( www.alfiekohn.org )
"Dumbing Us Down" and others by John Taylor Gatto - especially good to rock
the thinking of in-laws who think schools are all that.
"The Book of Learning and Forgetting" by ?? (I forget)
"The Unprocessed Child" by Valerie Fitzenreiter
There are more at Sandra's site and that others will suggest too. Sandra has
some links to non-spanking Christian websites also.
You may also enjoy the following lists:
Always Unschooled is for the parents of "pre-school" age children.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AlwaysUnschooled/
These are the two Unschooling discussion groups for men that my dh is
subscribed to. They are not hugely busy but he enjoys them.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/UnschoolingDads/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SSUDs/
Finally, although I urge you to put any thoughts about the law on to the
back burner for now, this website has all the State laws, and contact
information for local groups and organizations. In a little while you may
want to join a local inclusive or unschooling support group that has play
dates and park days.
www.nhen.org
Robyn L. Coburn
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.805 / Virus Database: 547 - Release Date: 12/3/2004
jeff_legrange
Thanks for your reply, Millie.
What an amazing son you have! Congratulations.
I appreciate the very sound advice. I have seen Sandra Dodd's site,
but haven't gone through it all... yet!
I am hoping that the unschooling model will be a benefit to the
whole family. I hope to learn to let go of some of my super-
organized tendencies, my wife will learn that "learning" IS fun, and
that my baby girl learns all she needs to know without the drudgery
and pressure that her mom and I had.
Thanks again!
Jeff
What an amazing son you have! Congratulations.
I appreciate the very sound advice. I have seen Sandra Dodd's site,
but haven't gone through it all... yet!
I am hoping that the unschooling model will be a benefit to the
whole family. I hope to learn to let go of some of my super-
organized tendencies, my wife will learn that "learning" IS fun, and
that my baby girl learns all she needs to know without the drudgery
and pressure that her mom and I had.
Thanks again!
Jeff
jeff_legrange
Thanks for your reply, Robyn.
I appreciate the great advice, and the resources you have pointed me
to. I have several Holt books on order already, and I am about to
dive into Sandra Dodd's website.
Thanks again!
Jeff
I appreciate the great advice, and the resources you have pointed me
to. I have several Holt books on order already, and I am about to
dive into Sandra Dodd's website.
Thanks again!
Jeff
Deb Lewis
***Since she is so young, we'd like to be
able to "get our ducks in a row" before she is "supposed" to start
school, and to ensure that we don't make fatal errors in judgment
that will cause later problems.***
Everything seems so urgent when you have a brand new baby. Your sense
of responsibility is overwhelmed with the realization there is a life
depending on the decisions you make. I felt just like you when my son
Dylan was born. It seems like there isn't enough time to get everything
right.
The good news is you do have time. The bad news is you won't get
everything right.<g> But even the bad news isn't all bad because in your
mistakes you'll be learning something about yourself and your daughter
and you'll do better the next time. So my first advice to you is to
relax and enjoy your new baby.
***First, where does one start?***
Start by assuming everything is all right. Trust your daughter as a
human being will want to do what humans do. Be loving, generous with
your time, be willing to participate in her world. Accept that she is
and will be her own person and doesn't need to be shaped or molded by you
or society.
***How do we "teach" the basic fundamentals? By that I mean,
beyond-bedtime-story reading, spelling, writing, and
basic arithmetic. ***
You can "teach" them any way you want to but that doesn't mean she will
learn what you're teaching. If you want to know how to "teach" there
are teaching resources galore. I hope you don't "teach." I hope you let
her learn.
If you want to know how your daughter will learn, that's something she
will show you. She will learn to read by being read to, by having access
to books and the freedom to explore. She'll learn by experimenting with
writing - she'll write jumbles of letters and be pleased about what she's
done. She'll pretend to read and be very satisfied. She'll start to
recognize letters and remember where she saw them before and when the
time is right for her it will all come together and she'll begin to read.
It might take a month or it might take twelve years. But because she
lives with people who read, in a world where written language is
everywhere, she'll learn.
She'll write when she has a reason to and she'll spell well or poorly
according to her nature. Enough people had trouble spelling well that we
now have spell check and other wondrous things to help us communicate
better. (Like telephones! No spelling!)
She'll learn about math when she wants to buy toys, keep score in a game
or divide cookies fairly among friends. If she finds math interesting
she'll look for ways to learn more about it. If she doesn't, maybe her
talents will be for other things.
***My state requires a yearly written assessment of
Reading, Language Arts, Math, Science, and Social Studies, and
standardized testing every three years starting at the end of third
grade. How does the unschooling model conform to these
requirements?***
My state doesn't require testing but if you can find other unschoolers in
your area and talk with them I'm sure they have strategies.
My state doesn't require yearly assessments either but I could easily
write about what Dylan has done. I have a huge calendar and because I
have a mind like a steel sieve, I write everything down. So my calendar
has the dates we went to the punkin' chunkin, and the dog show and the
symphony. I have notations about hikes and fossil hunting expeditions and
museum visits and art gallery tours and clay classes and martial arts
tournaments, and ... Life won't let you down. <g> You'll find your
assessment material.
***What do we say to Jane's parents when they pitch the inevitable fit?
***
"Bye!" <g> You can tell them you're considering homeschooling. You can
tell them you're going to see how it goes. You can tell them Bree can go
to school if she wants to. The less you talk to them about your
personal decisions the fewer fits they can pitch. She's not their child
and it's not their place to make decisions about your family. You are
not required by law to let them fling the poo of negativity on you.
We said "Dylan doesn't want to go to kindergarten." That was ok with the
family members who were living near us because they could see he was
happy and bright and not missing anything. Compulsory school age is
seven here, so they weren't in panic mode yet. When he was six we said
"He doesn't want to go to school." That was still ok with the closer
relatives because he wasn't compulsory school age. Family members who
lived elsewhere started to get nervous though. At seven he didn't want
to go to school so we finally said "homeschool." Those who saw Dylan
everyday were ok with it because they knew we were busy doing all kinds
of things and most of them were smart enough to realize he'd never be
doing those things if he was stuck at school. This was when I started
getting letters from concerned relatives who did not live near us. They
started sending articles about education.
It was a hassle for awhile but as Dylan got older those who would compare
him with their schooled children found a kid who was smart, interested,
thoughtful and engaged. Dylan himself became the reassurance they
needed. It will be that way with your daughter too.
***If unschooling is a year-round, lifelong process,
how do we decide what grade she is in; by age or by academic
achievement?***
Philosophically grades don't matter, they mean nothing to a life long,
natural learner. I hope you can really think about this. A grade is a
judgement about another persons learning and it has never and can never
help anyone learn anything real. Grades (and tests) are dangerous and
spirt crushing.
But since your state requires testing, and if you intend to comply with
the law, ask other unschoolers how they've done it.
Some places let you pick the test and the test results don't matter.
They don't have any bearing, according to the law, on whether you can
continue to keep her out of school.
Some people join umbrella schools that can help unschoolers with testing
requirements.
I have read different things. Someone once said their child magically
"skipped" those grades where testing was required. So for two years she
was in "second grade" and then she "jumped ahead" to fourth.
If you are opposed to the concept of testing in general you could move to
a state that doesn't require testing.
Deb Lewis
able to "get our ducks in a row" before she is "supposed" to start
school, and to ensure that we don't make fatal errors in judgment
that will cause later problems.***
Everything seems so urgent when you have a brand new baby. Your sense
of responsibility is overwhelmed with the realization there is a life
depending on the decisions you make. I felt just like you when my son
Dylan was born. It seems like there isn't enough time to get everything
right.
The good news is you do have time. The bad news is you won't get
everything right.<g> But even the bad news isn't all bad because in your
mistakes you'll be learning something about yourself and your daughter
and you'll do better the next time. So my first advice to you is to
relax and enjoy your new baby.
***First, where does one start?***
Start by assuming everything is all right. Trust your daughter as a
human being will want to do what humans do. Be loving, generous with
your time, be willing to participate in her world. Accept that she is
and will be her own person and doesn't need to be shaped or molded by you
or society.
***How do we "teach" the basic fundamentals? By that I mean,
beyond-bedtime-story reading, spelling, writing, and
basic arithmetic. ***
You can "teach" them any way you want to but that doesn't mean she will
learn what you're teaching. If you want to know how to "teach" there
are teaching resources galore. I hope you don't "teach." I hope you let
her learn.
If you want to know how your daughter will learn, that's something she
will show you. She will learn to read by being read to, by having access
to books and the freedom to explore. She'll learn by experimenting with
writing - she'll write jumbles of letters and be pleased about what she's
done. She'll pretend to read and be very satisfied. She'll start to
recognize letters and remember where she saw them before and when the
time is right for her it will all come together and she'll begin to read.
It might take a month or it might take twelve years. But because she
lives with people who read, in a world where written language is
everywhere, she'll learn.
She'll write when she has a reason to and she'll spell well or poorly
according to her nature. Enough people had trouble spelling well that we
now have spell check and other wondrous things to help us communicate
better. (Like telephones! No spelling!)
She'll learn about math when she wants to buy toys, keep score in a game
or divide cookies fairly among friends. If she finds math interesting
she'll look for ways to learn more about it. If she doesn't, maybe her
talents will be for other things.
***My state requires a yearly written assessment of
Reading, Language Arts, Math, Science, and Social Studies, and
standardized testing every three years starting at the end of third
grade. How does the unschooling model conform to these
requirements?***
My state doesn't require testing but if you can find other unschoolers in
your area and talk with them I'm sure they have strategies.
My state doesn't require yearly assessments either but I could easily
write about what Dylan has done. I have a huge calendar and because I
have a mind like a steel sieve, I write everything down. So my calendar
has the dates we went to the punkin' chunkin, and the dog show and the
symphony. I have notations about hikes and fossil hunting expeditions and
museum visits and art gallery tours and clay classes and martial arts
tournaments, and ... Life won't let you down. <g> You'll find your
assessment material.
***What do we say to Jane's parents when they pitch the inevitable fit?
***
"Bye!" <g> You can tell them you're considering homeschooling. You can
tell them you're going to see how it goes. You can tell them Bree can go
to school if she wants to. The less you talk to them about your
personal decisions the fewer fits they can pitch. She's not their child
and it's not their place to make decisions about your family. You are
not required by law to let them fling the poo of negativity on you.
We said "Dylan doesn't want to go to kindergarten." That was ok with the
family members who were living near us because they could see he was
happy and bright and not missing anything. Compulsory school age is
seven here, so they weren't in panic mode yet. When he was six we said
"He doesn't want to go to school." That was still ok with the closer
relatives because he wasn't compulsory school age. Family members who
lived elsewhere started to get nervous though. At seven he didn't want
to go to school so we finally said "homeschool." Those who saw Dylan
everyday were ok with it because they knew we were busy doing all kinds
of things and most of them were smart enough to realize he'd never be
doing those things if he was stuck at school. This was when I started
getting letters from concerned relatives who did not live near us. They
started sending articles about education.
It was a hassle for awhile but as Dylan got older those who would compare
him with their schooled children found a kid who was smart, interested,
thoughtful and engaged. Dylan himself became the reassurance they
needed. It will be that way with your daughter too.
***If unschooling is a year-round, lifelong process,
how do we decide what grade she is in; by age or by academic
achievement?***
Philosophically grades don't matter, they mean nothing to a life long,
natural learner. I hope you can really think about this. A grade is a
judgement about another persons learning and it has never and can never
help anyone learn anything real. Grades (and tests) are dangerous and
spirt crushing.
But since your state requires testing, and if you intend to comply with
the law, ask other unschoolers how they've done it.
Some places let you pick the test and the test results don't matter.
They don't have any bearing, according to the law, on whether you can
continue to keep her out of school.
Some people join umbrella schools that can help unschoolers with testing
requirements.
I have read different things. Someone once said their child magically
"skipped" those grades where testing was required. So for two years she
was in "second grade" and then she "jumped ahead" to fourth.
If you are opposed to the concept of testing in general you could move to
a state that doesn't require testing.
Deb Lewis
Krisula Moyer
Dear Jeff,
I only have a second but couldn't resist commenting that I think you two are
off to a great start. It seems like you both have the same goals for your
family and your Type A personality can get the ball rolling with reading,
research and asking questions but you'll probably find that your wife's more
laid back nature will prove out that as Bree grows and learns and *is* most
things really will "take care of themselves" as you said. My bit of advise
is to read some unschooling websites and lists like this one. Let that lead
you to books that strike your fancy and also try to get to know some local
families who are doing it. There's nothing like relationships with other
unschoolers. Our play group has families who's children are not "school
age" and we don't think that's strange at all. Also attachment parenting
resources may be helpful to you at this stage in your lives.
You have years before you have to be concerned about your state's laws -
really. And by that time they very may well have changed. If it makes you
feel better you can look up what you need to know on www.nhen.org but I
truly wouldn't waste time on it now. Bree's babyhood will be over in the
blink of an eye and I urge you not to waste a minute away from her on the
legalities of unschooling.
Avoid declaring your unschooling status to people who might object (MIL, DS
etc.) after all, By the time they start asking about little Bree's schooling
years will have passed. Why have those arguments early?
FWIW My family took a detour from our AP, unscooly beginnings to send two of
our children to a first rate Montessori school and we regret doing that a
lot. It was way better in some respects than traditional school but still
not even close to as good as we have it now with all af them unschooled. It
was a detour I avoided with my third child.
Have fun, relax, enjoy the baby, read Holt cause you'll find him interesting
(not as a how-to but just cuz *you* will enjoy it.) Love hug kiss live but
don't try to "teach fundamentals" Bree will stun you with her ability to
learn what she needs to know - always. OK I was supposed to be quick.
LOL
Krisula
I only have a second but couldn't resist commenting that I think you two are
off to a great start. It seems like you both have the same goals for your
family and your Type A personality can get the ball rolling with reading,
research and asking questions but you'll probably find that your wife's more
laid back nature will prove out that as Bree grows and learns and *is* most
things really will "take care of themselves" as you said. My bit of advise
is to read some unschooling websites and lists like this one. Let that lead
you to books that strike your fancy and also try to get to know some local
families who are doing it. There's nothing like relationships with other
unschoolers. Our play group has families who's children are not "school
age" and we don't think that's strange at all. Also attachment parenting
resources may be helpful to you at this stage in your lives.
You have years before you have to be concerned about your state's laws -
really. And by that time they very may well have changed. If it makes you
feel better you can look up what you need to know on www.nhen.org but I
truly wouldn't waste time on it now. Bree's babyhood will be over in the
blink of an eye and I urge you not to waste a minute away from her on the
legalities of unschooling.
Avoid declaring your unschooling status to people who might object (MIL, DS
etc.) after all, By the time they start asking about little Bree's schooling
years will have passed. Why have those arguments early?
FWIW My family took a detour from our AP, unscooly beginnings to send two of
our children to a first rate Montessori school and we regret doing that a
lot. It was way better in some respects than traditional school but still
not even close to as good as we have it now with all af them unschooled. It
was a detour I avoided with my third child.
Have fun, relax, enjoy the baby, read Holt cause you'll find him interesting
(not as a how-to but just cuz *you* will enjoy it.) Love hug kiss live but
don't try to "teach fundamentals" Bree will stun you with her ability to
learn what she needs to know - always. OK I was supposed to be quick.
LOL
Krisula
Robin Clevenger
--- In [email protected], "jeff_legrange"
<jeff_legrange@y...> wrote:
unschooling at such an early time because you have plenty of time to
just relax into it, read about it, etc.. The nicest thing about
unschooling for us was that the excitement of watching all of our
babies' earliest moments of learning - when they said their first
words and took their first steps - just continued and continued. As I
type this, I'm listening to my 8 y.o. son pick out a Christmas carol
on the piano, something he's never been taught. The learning and
excitement just continue unabated if you let them. The best thing
about unschooling is that it's fun.
folks like John Holt or experiences of real life unschoolers is a
great way to immerse yourself and begin to let go of the schoolish
notions in your head.
How do we "teach" the basic fundamentals? By
a home where books are joyfully read will want to read, just as a
baby in a house where people speak will want to speak. A child in a
home where arithmetic is used, whether it be for cooking or
calculating the total on a shopping list or the angle for a new
cabinet, will want to know how it all works. They'll pick it up in
drips and drabs and before you know it, they can do it. You'll see as
your daughter learns and grows that there's very rarely a moment when
something is learned or not learned. It's all a continuum. A baby
babbles and learns to make noises with their mouth - are they
talking? Then they repeat a sound that they know makes a
word "mamamamamama" - is this talking? One day they point to
something and say a real word (my daughter's was "duck!" after which
she called all birds ducks :-) - but is this talking? They add more
and more and more words to their vocabulary and one day they string 2
words together "me milk!". Eventually they talk in complete sentences
but with limited vocabulary, and at some point you realize that their
vocabulary is the equivalent of an adults. At what point on this
continuum are they actually "talking"? Every step along the way is a
part of the learning, and all of it is exciting to watch and be a
part of and encourage. Right now, my daughter is sounding out every
word she sees, from cereal boxes to book covers. She's in that
process with reading and it's exciting to watch too. Some day, before
I know it, she'll be picking up books and reading them, and I won't
exactly be able to put my finger on the moment that she "learned to
read".
grade assessment next year and we're not worried about it. Though we
haven't sat down and done any kind of lessons, he can read, write,
and do 'rithmatic, he's just picked it up along the way. I can't
speak to the yearly assessment as our state doesn't have that.
not much point if you know someone is going to be antagonistic about
it. At 5 or 6 years, or even 7 (which is the compulsory attendance
age in our state), you can just say that you're homeschooling. By
then, I'm betting there will be even millions more homeschoolers than
there are now, and already it's not such an unusual thing. My mom (a
former educator) was fairly opposed at the first, but I always like
to say "the proof is in the pudding". Very few people, when they meet
our interesting, engaging, and exuberant kids, could have any
objections to the way we're choose to unschool them. My parents
definitely don't have any objections any more.
case, we chose the latest grade that we could, because it would delay
the year that our kids will be tested. Our son is on the cusp between
two school years, and we chose the earlier one (so right now, he's
officially in "2nd grade"). For a local homeschool resource center,
we might choose 3rd grade if he wants to get into a particular class
(he's very into robotics right now, for instance, and the robotics
classes they offer are for older kids).
our state if you're out of compliance with the homeschool rules, they
send you a letter and you just have to get *in* compliance. I think
the worst thing that could happen would be that they would mandate
your child has to go to school.
You've got many years before you have to worry about any of the legal
aspects - probably at least 6 or 7. Right now, I'd just concentrate
on living in the moment, enjoying your daughter, and watching her
live and learn. Actually, that's great advice for the next couple of
decades!
Blue Skies,
-Robin-
<jeff_legrange@y...> wrote:
>named
>
> Hi all. My name is Jeff. I am 37 years old, married 3 years to my
> wife Jane, who is 27 years old. We have a 2-week-old daughter
> Bree. We are strongly considering home schooling/unschooling forCongrats, having a new baby is so exciting. It's nice to find
> many, widely varied, reasons.
unschooling at such an early time because you have plenty of time to
just relax into it, read about it, etc.. The nicest thing about
unschooling for us was that the excitement of watching all of our
babies' earliest moments of learning - when they said their first
words and took their first steps - just continued and continued. As I
type this, I'm listening to my 8 y.o. son pick out a Christmas carol
on the piano, something he's never been taught. The learning and
excitement just continue unabated if you let them. The best thing
about unschooling is that it's fun.
> Several questions to you experienced unschoolers out there. First,Here is a great place. Just reading about unschooling, both books by
> where does one start?
folks like John Holt or experiences of real life unschoolers is a
great way to immerse yourself and begin to let go of the schoolish
notions in your head.
How do we "teach" the basic fundamentals? By
> that I mean, beyond-bedtime-story reading, spelling, writing, andThey will teach themselves this stuff when they're ready. A child in
> basic arithmetic.
a home where books are joyfully read will want to read, just as a
baby in a house where people speak will want to speak. A child in a
home where arithmetic is used, whether it be for cooking or
calculating the total on a shopping list or the angle for a new
cabinet, will want to know how it all works. They'll pick it up in
drips and drabs and before you know it, they can do it. You'll see as
your daughter learns and grows that there's very rarely a moment when
something is learned or not learned. It's all a continuum. A baby
babbles and learns to make noises with their mouth - are they
talking? Then they repeat a sound that they know makes a
word "mamamamamama" - is this talking? One day they point to
something and say a real word (my daughter's was "duck!" after which
she called all birds ducks :-) - but is this talking? They add more
and more and more words to their vocabulary and one day they string 2
words together "me milk!". Eventually they talk in complete sentences
but with limited vocabulary, and at some point you realize that their
vocabulary is the equivalent of an adults. At what point on this
continuum are they actually "talking"? Every step along the way is a
part of the learning, and all of it is exciting to watch and be a
part of and encourage. Right now, my daughter is sounding out every
word she sees, from cereal boxes to book covers. She's in that
process with reading and it's exciting to watch too. Some day, before
I know it, she'll be picking up books and reading them, and I won't
exactly be able to put my finger on the moment that she "learned to
read".
>My state requires a yearly written assessment ofFor us, it hasn't been a problem so far. Our son will do his 3rd
> Reading, Language Arts, Math, Science, and Social Studies, and
> standardized testing every three years starting at the end of third
> grade. How does the unschooling model conform to these
> requirements?
grade assessment next year and we're not worried about it. Though we
haven't sat down and done any kind of lessons, he can read, write,
and do 'rithmatic, he's just picked it up along the way. I can't
speak to the yearly assessment as our state doesn't have that.
> What do we say to Jane's parents when they pitch theWell, I wouldn't say anything for at least a few years. There's just
> inevitable fit?
not much point if you know someone is going to be antagonistic about
it. At 5 or 6 years, or even 7 (which is the compulsory attendance
age in our state), you can just say that you're homeschooling. By
then, I'm betting there will be even millions more homeschoolers than
there are now, and already it's not such an unusual thing. My mom (a
former educator) was fairly opposed at the first, but I always like
to say "the proof is in the pudding". Very few people, when they meet
our interesting, engaging, and exuberant kids, could have any
objections to the way we're choose to unschool them. My parents
definitely don't have any objections any more.
> If unschooling is a year-round, lifelong process,You can choose to decide however it will benefit her the best. In our
> how do we decide what grade she is in; by age or by academic
> achievement?
case, we chose the latest grade that we could, because it would delay
the year that our kids will be tested. Our son is on the cusp between
two school years, and we chose the earlier one (so right now, he's
officially in "2nd grade"). For a local homeschool resource center,
we might choose 3rd grade if he wants to get into a particular class
(he's very into robotics right now, for instance, and the robotics
classes they offer are for older kids).
> Our goal is a healthy, happy, well-adjusted daughter, unlimited inWell, I wouldn't worry too much about jail. I know at least that in
> her future prospects - while keeping Mom and Dad out of jail for
> failing to follow the rules. Any advice, resources, etc. that you
> folks can recommend would be gratefully received.
our state if you're out of compliance with the homeschool rules, they
send you a letter and you just have to get *in* compliance. I think
the worst thing that could happen would be that they would mandate
your child has to go to school.
You've got many years before you have to worry about any of the legal
aspects - probably at least 6 or 7. Right now, I'd just concentrate
on living in the moment, enjoying your daughter, and watching her
live and learn. Actually, that's great advice for the next couple of
decades!
Blue Skies,
-Robin-
mamaaj2000
I'm curious about what you didn't like about Montessori. I'm going to
be hearing waaay too much about it at Christmas from dh's family
because of one of the cousins who just started there. I'd love to
hear some downside, even tho' I'll probably choose to keep my mouth
shut.
--aj
--- In [email protected], "Krisula Moyer"
<krisulam@v...> wrote:
be hearing waaay too much about it at Christmas from dh's family
because of one of the cousins who just started there. I'd love to
hear some downside, even tho' I'll probably choose to keep my mouth
shut.
--aj
--- In [email protected], "Krisula Moyer"
<krisulam@v...> wrote:
> FWIW My family took a detour from our AP, unscooly beginnings tosend two of
> our children to a first rate Montessori school and we regret doingthat a
> lot. It was way better in some respects than traditional schoolbut still
> not even close to as good as we have it now with all af themunschooled. It
> was a detour I avoided with my third child.
Jeff LeGrange
Thanks, Deb, for the reply.
Alot of good food for thought, there. I will consider it all.
Thanks again.
Jeff
Deb Lewis <ddzimlew@...> wrote:
***Since she is so young, we'd like to be
able to "get our ducks in a row" before she is "supposed" to start
school, and to ensure that we don't make fatal errors in judgment
that will cause later problems.***
Everything seems so urgent when you have a brand new baby. Your sense
of responsibility is overwhelmed with the realization there is a life
depending on the decisions you make. I felt just like you when my son
Dylan was born. It seems like there isn't enough time to get everything
right.
The good news is you do have time. The bad news is you won't get
everything right.<g> But even the bad news isn't all bad because in your
mistakes you'll be learning something about yourself and your daughter
and you'll do better the next time. So my first advice to you is to
relax and enjoy your new baby.
***First, where does one start?***
Start by assuming everything is all right. Trust your daughter as a
human being will want to do what humans do. Be loving, generous with
your time, be willing to participate in her world. Accept that she is
and will be her own person and doesn't need to be shaped or molded by you
or society.
***How do we "teach" the basic fundamentals? By that I mean,
beyond-bedtime-story reading, spelling, writing, and
basic arithmetic. ***
You can "teach" them any way you want to but that doesn't mean she will
learn what you're teaching. If you want to know how to "teach" there
are teaching resources galore. I hope you don't "teach." I hope you let
her learn.
If you want to know how your daughter will learn, that's something she
will show you. She will learn to read by being read to, by having access
to books and the freedom to explore. She'll learn by experimenting with
writing - she'll write jumbles of letters and be pleased about what she's
done. She'll pretend to read and be very satisfied. She'll start to
recognize letters and remember where she saw them before and when the
time is right for her it will all come together and she'll begin to read.
It might take a month or it might take twelve years. But because she
lives with people who read, in a world where written language is
everywhere, she'll learn.
She'll write when she has a reason to and she'll spell well or poorly
according to her nature. Enough people had trouble spelling well that we
now have spell check and other wondrous things to help us communicate
better. (Like telephones! No spelling!)
She'll learn about math when she wants to buy toys, keep score in a game
or divide cookies fairly among friends. If she finds math interesting
she'll look for ways to learn more about it. If she doesn't, maybe her
talents will be for other things.
***My state requires a yearly written assessment of
Reading, Language Arts, Math, Science, and Social Studies, and
standardized testing every three years starting at the end of third
grade. How does the unschooling model conform to these
requirements?***
My state doesn't require testing but if you can find other unschoolers in
your area and talk with them I'm sure they have strategies.
My state doesn't require yearly assessments either but I could easily
write about what Dylan has done. I have a huge calendar and because I
have a mind like a steel sieve, I write everything down. So my calendar
has the dates we went to the punkin' chunkin, and the dog show and the
symphony. I have notations about hikes and fossil hunting expeditions and
museum visits and art gallery tours and clay classes and martial arts
tournaments, and ... Life won't let you down. <g> You'll find your
assessment material.
***What do we say to Jane's parents when they pitch the inevitable fit?
***
"Bye!" <g> You can tell them you're considering homeschooling. You can
tell them you're going to see how it goes. You can tell them Bree can go
to school if she wants to. The less you talk to them about your
personal decisions the fewer fits they can pitch. She's not their child
and it's not their place to make decisions about your family. You are
not required by law to let them fling the poo of negativity on you.
We said "Dylan doesn't want to go to kindergarten." That was ok with the
family members who were living near us because they could see he was
happy and bright and not missing anything. Compulsory school age is
seven here, so they weren't in panic mode yet. When he was six we said
"He doesn't want to go to school." That was still ok with the closer
relatives because he wasn't compulsory school age. Family members who
lived elsewhere started to get nervous though. At seven he didn't want
to go to school so we finally said "homeschool." Those who saw Dylan
everyday were ok with it because they knew we were busy doing all kinds
of things and most of them were smart enough to realize he'd never be
doing those things if he was stuck at school. This was when I started
getting letters from concerned relatives who did not live near us. They
started sending articles about education.
It was a hassle for awhile but as Dylan got older those who would compare
him with their schooled children found a kid who was smart, interested,
thoughtful and engaged. Dylan himself became the reassurance they
needed. It will be that way with your daughter too.
***If unschooling is a year-round, lifelong process,
how do we decide what grade she is in; by age or by academic
achievement?***
Philosophically grades don't matter, they mean nothing to a life long,
natural learner. I hope you can really think about this. A grade is a
judgement about another persons learning and it has never and can never
help anyone learn anything real. Grades (and tests) are dangerous and
spirt crushing.
But since your state requires testing, and if you intend to comply with
the law, ask other unschoolers how they've done it.
Some places let you pick the test and the test results don't matter.
They don't have any bearing, according to the law, on whether you can
continue to keep her out of school.
Some people join umbrella schools that can help unschoolers with testing
requirements.
I have read different things. Someone once said their child magically
"skipped" those grades where testing was required. So for two years she
was in "second grade" and then she "jumped ahead" to fourth.
If you are opposed to the concept of testing in general you could move to
a state that doesn't require testing.
Deb Lewis
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Alot of good food for thought, there. I will consider it all.
Thanks again.
Jeff
Deb Lewis <ddzimlew@...> wrote:
***Since she is so young, we'd like to be
able to "get our ducks in a row" before she is "supposed" to start
school, and to ensure that we don't make fatal errors in judgment
that will cause later problems.***
Everything seems so urgent when you have a brand new baby. Your sense
of responsibility is overwhelmed with the realization there is a life
depending on the decisions you make. I felt just like you when my son
Dylan was born. It seems like there isn't enough time to get everything
right.
The good news is you do have time. The bad news is you won't get
everything right.<g> But even the bad news isn't all bad because in your
mistakes you'll be learning something about yourself and your daughter
and you'll do better the next time. So my first advice to you is to
relax and enjoy your new baby.
***First, where does one start?***
Start by assuming everything is all right. Trust your daughter as a
human being will want to do what humans do. Be loving, generous with
your time, be willing to participate in her world. Accept that she is
and will be her own person and doesn't need to be shaped or molded by you
or society.
***How do we "teach" the basic fundamentals? By that I mean,
beyond-bedtime-story reading, spelling, writing, and
basic arithmetic. ***
You can "teach" them any way you want to but that doesn't mean she will
learn what you're teaching. If you want to know how to "teach" there
are teaching resources galore. I hope you don't "teach." I hope you let
her learn.
If you want to know how your daughter will learn, that's something she
will show you. She will learn to read by being read to, by having access
to books and the freedom to explore. She'll learn by experimenting with
writing - she'll write jumbles of letters and be pleased about what she's
done. She'll pretend to read and be very satisfied. She'll start to
recognize letters and remember where she saw them before and when the
time is right for her it will all come together and she'll begin to read.
It might take a month or it might take twelve years. But because she
lives with people who read, in a world where written language is
everywhere, she'll learn.
She'll write when she has a reason to and she'll spell well or poorly
according to her nature. Enough people had trouble spelling well that we
now have spell check and other wondrous things to help us communicate
better. (Like telephones! No spelling!)
She'll learn about math when she wants to buy toys, keep score in a game
or divide cookies fairly among friends. If she finds math interesting
she'll look for ways to learn more about it. If she doesn't, maybe her
talents will be for other things.
***My state requires a yearly written assessment of
Reading, Language Arts, Math, Science, and Social Studies, and
standardized testing every three years starting at the end of third
grade. How does the unschooling model conform to these
requirements?***
My state doesn't require testing but if you can find other unschoolers in
your area and talk with them I'm sure they have strategies.
My state doesn't require yearly assessments either but I could easily
write about what Dylan has done. I have a huge calendar and because I
have a mind like a steel sieve, I write everything down. So my calendar
has the dates we went to the punkin' chunkin, and the dog show and the
symphony. I have notations about hikes and fossil hunting expeditions and
museum visits and art gallery tours and clay classes and martial arts
tournaments, and ... Life won't let you down. <g> You'll find your
assessment material.
***What do we say to Jane's parents when they pitch the inevitable fit?
***
"Bye!" <g> You can tell them you're considering homeschooling. You can
tell them you're going to see how it goes. You can tell them Bree can go
to school if she wants to. The less you talk to them about your
personal decisions the fewer fits they can pitch. She's not their child
and it's not their place to make decisions about your family. You are
not required by law to let them fling the poo of negativity on you.
We said "Dylan doesn't want to go to kindergarten." That was ok with the
family members who were living near us because they could see he was
happy and bright and not missing anything. Compulsory school age is
seven here, so they weren't in panic mode yet. When he was six we said
"He doesn't want to go to school." That was still ok with the closer
relatives because he wasn't compulsory school age. Family members who
lived elsewhere started to get nervous though. At seven he didn't want
to go to school so we finally said "homeschool." Those who saw Dylan
everyday were ok with it because they knew we were busy doing all kinds
of things and most of them were smart enough to realize he'd never be
doing those things if he was stuck at school. This was when I started
getting letters from concerned relatives who did not live near us. They
started sending articles about education.
It was a hassle for awhile but as Dylan got older those who would compare
him with their schooled children found a kid who was smart, interested,
thoughtful and engaged. Dylan himself became the reassurance they
needed. It will be that way with your daughter too.
***If unschooling is a year-round, lifelong process,
how do we decide what grade she is in; by age or by academic
achievement?***
Philosophically grades don't matter, they mean nothing to a life long,
natural learner. I hope you can really think about this. A grade is a
judgement about another persons learning and it has never and can never
help anyone learn anything real. Grades (and tests) are dangerous and
spirt crushing.
But since your state requires testing, and if you intend to comply with
the law, ask other unschoolers how they've done it.
Some places let you pick the test and the test results don't matter.
They don't have any bearing, according to the law, on whether you can
continue to keep her out of school.
Some people join umbrella schools that can help unschoolers with testing
requirements.
I have read different things. Someone once said their child magically
"skipped" those grades where testing was required. So for two years she
was in "second grade" and then she "jumped ahead" to fourth.
If you are opposed to the concept of testing in general you could move to
a state that doesn't require testing.
Deb Lewis
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Jeff LeGrange
Thanks for you comments Krisula.
I appreciate the great advice... most of which we have already decided to adopt: no worries about the Laws or the in-laws, no artificial constraints, etc.
I have 3 Holt books on order, along with a few others that looked interesting. Sandra Dodds website was an eye-opener as well.
Thanks again.
Jeff
Krisula Moyer <krisulam@...> wrote:
Dear Jeff,
I only have a second but couldn't resist commenting that I think you two are
off to a great start. It seems like you both have the same goals for your
family and your Type A personality can get the ball rolling with reading,
research and asking questions but you'll probably find that your wife's more
laid back nature will prove out that as Bree grows and learns and *is* most
things really will "take care of themselves" as you said. My bit of advise
is to read some unschooling websites and lists like this one. Let that lead
you to books that strike your fancy and also try to get to know some local
families who are doing it. There's nothing like relationships with other
unschoolers. Our play group has families who's children are not "school
age" and we don't think that's strange at all. Also attachment parenting
resources may be helpful to you at this stage in your lives.
You have years before you have to be concerned about your state's laws -
really. And by that time they very may well have changed. If it makes you
feel better you can look up what you need to know on www.nhen.org but I
truly wouldn't waste time on it now. Bree's babyhood will be over in the
blink of an eye and I urge you not to waste a minute away from her on the
legalities of unschooling.
Avoid declaring your unschooling status to people who might object (MIL, DS
etc.) after all, By the time they start asking about little Bree's schooling
years will have passed. Why have those arguments early?
FWIW My family took a detour from our AP, unscooly beginnings to send two of
our children to a first rate Montessori school and we regret doing that a
lot. It was way better in some respects than traditional school but still
not even close to as good as we have it now with all af them unschooled. It
was a detour I avoided with my third child.
Have fun, relax, enjoy the baby, read Holt cause you'll find him interesting
(not as a how-to but just cuz *you* will enjoy it.) Love hug kiss live but
don't try to "teach fundamentals" Bree will stun you with her ability to
learn what she needs to know - always. OK I was supposed to be quick.
LOL
Krisula
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I appreciate the great advice... most of which we have already decided to adopt: no worries about the Laws or the in-laws, no artificial constraints, etc.
I have 3 Holt books on order, along with a few others that looked interesting. Sandra Dodds website was an eye-opener as well.
Thanks again.
Jeff
Krisula Moyer <krisulam@...> wrote:
Dear Jeff,
I only have a second but couldn't resist commenting that I think you two are
off to a great start. It seems like you both have the same goals for your
family and your Type A personality can get the ball rolling with reading,
research and asking questions but you'll probably find that your wife's more
laid back nature will prove out that as Bree grows and learns and *is* most
things really will "take care of themselves" as you said. My bit of advise
is to read some unschooling websites and lists like this one. Let that lead
you to books that strike your fancy and also try to get to know some local
families who are doing it. There's nothing like relationships with other
unschoolers. Our play group has families who's children are not "school
age" and we don't think that's strange at all. Also attachment parenting
resources may be helpful to you at this stage in your lives.
You have years before you have to be concerned about your state's laws -
really. And by that time they very may well have changed. If it makes you
feel better you can look up what you need to know on www.nhen.org but I
truly wouldn't waste time on it now. Bree's babyhood will be over in the
blink of an eye and I urge you not to waste a minute away from her on the
legalities of unschooling.
Avoid declaring your unschooling status to people who might object (MIL, DS
etc.) after all, By the time they start asking about little Bree's schooling
years will have passed. Why have those arguments early?
FWIW My family took a detour from our AP, unscooly beginnings to send two of
our children to a first rate Montessori school and we regret doing that a
lot. It was way better in some respects than traditional school but still
not even close to as good as we have it now with all af them unschooled. It
was a detour I avoided with my third child.
Have fun, relax, enjoy the baby, read Holt cause you'll find him interesting
(not as a how-to but just cuz *you* will enjoy it.) Love hug kiss live but
don't try to "teach fundamentals" Bree will stun you with her ability to
learn what she needs to know - always. OK I was supposed to be quick.
LOL
Krisula
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jeff LeGrange
Thanks, Ribin for your kind, calm words of encouragement.
We do appreciate it.
Jeff
Robin Clevenger <tri_mom@...> wrote:
--- In [email protected], "jeff_legrange"
<jeff_legrange@y...> wrote:
unschooling at such an early time because you have plenty of time to
just relax into it, read about it, etc.. The nicest thing about
unschooling for us was that the excitement of watching all of our
babies' earliest moments of learning - when they said their first
words and took their first steps - just continued and continued. As I
type this, I'm listening to my 8 y.o. son pick out a Christmas carol
on the piano, something he's never been taught. The learning and
excitement just continue unabated if you let them. The best thing
about unschooling is that it's fun.
folks like John Holt or experiences of real life unschoolers is a
great way to immerse yourself and begin to let go of the schoolish
notions in your head.
How do we "teach" the basic fundamentals? By
a home where books are joyfully read will want to read, just as a
baby in a house where people speak will want to speak. A child in a
home where arithmetic is used, whether it be for cooking or
calculating the total on a shopping list or the angle for a new
cabinet, will want to know how it all works. They'll pick it up in
drips and drabs and before you know it, they can do it. You'll see as
your daughter learns and grows that there's very rarely a moment when
something is learned or not learned. It's all a continuum. A baby
babbles and learns to make noises with their mouth - are they
talking? Then they repeat a sound that they know makes a
word "mamamamamama" - is this talking? One day they point to
something and say a real word (my daughter's was "duck!" after which
she called all birds ducks :-) - but is this talking? They add more
and more and more words to their vocabulary and one day they string 2
words together "me milk!". Eventually they talk in complete sentences
but with limited vocabulary, and at some point you realize that their
vocabulary is the equivalent of an adults. At what point on this
continuum are they actually "talking"? Every step along the way is a
part of the learning, and all of it is exciting to watch and be a
part of and encourage. Right now, my daughter is sounding out every
word she sees, from cereal boxes to book covers. She's in that
process with reading and it's exciting to watch too. Some day, before
I know it, she'll be picking up books and reading them, and I won't
exactly be able to put my finger on the moment that she "learned to
read".
grade assessment next year and we're not worried about it. Though we
haven't sat down and done any kind of lessons, he can read, write,
and do 'rithmatic, he's just picked it up along the way. I can't
speak to the yearly assessment as our state doesn't have that.
not much point if you know someone is going to be antagonistic about
it. At 5 or 6 years, or even 7 (which is the compulsory attendance
age in our state), you can just say that you're homeschooling. By
then, I'm betting there will be even millions more homeschoolers than
there are now, and already it's not such an unusual thing. My mom (a
former educator) was fairly opposed at the first, but I always like
to say "the proof is in the pudding". Very few people, when they meet
our interesting, engaging, and exuberant kids, could have any
objections to the way we're choose to unschool them. My parents
definitely don't have any objections any more.
case, we chose the latest grade that we could, because it would delay
the year that our kids will be tested. Our son is on the cusp between
two school years, and we chose the earlier one (so right now, he's
officially in "2nd grade"). For a local homeschool resource center,
we might choose 3rd grade if he wants to get into a particular class
(he's very into robotics right now, for instance, and the robotics
classes they offer are for older kids).
our state if you're out of compliance with the homeschool rules, they
send you a letter and you just have to get *in* compliance. I think
the worst thing that could happen would be that they would mandate
your child has to go to school.
You've got many years before you have to worry about any of the legal
aspects - probably at least 6 or 7. Right now, I'd just concentrate
on living in the moment, enjoying your daughter, and watching her
live and learn. Actually, that's great advice for the next couple of
decades!
Blue Skies,
-Robin-
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
We do appreciate it.
Jeff
Robin Clevenger <tri_mom@...> wrote:
--- In [email protected], "jeff_legrange"
<jeff_legrange@y...> wrote:
>named
>
> Hi all. My name is Jeff. I am 37 years old, married 3 years to my
> wife Jane, who is 27 years old. We have a 2-week-old daughter
> Bree. We are strongly considering home schooling/unschooling forCongrats, having a new baby is so exciting. It's nice to find
> many, widely varied, reasons.
unschooling at such an early time because you have plenty of time to
just relax into it, read about it, etc.. The nicest thing about
unschooling for us was that the excitement of watching all of our
babies' earliest moments of learning - when they said their first
words and took their first steps - just continued and continued. As I
type this, I'm listening to my 8 y.o. son pick out a Christmas carol
on the piano, something he's never been taught. The learning and
excitement just continue unabated if you let them. The best thing
about unschooling is that it's fun.
> Several questions to you experienced unschoolers out there. First,Here is a great place. Just reading about unschooling, both books by
> where does one start?
folks like John Holt or experiences of real life unschoolers is a
great way to immerse yourself and begin to let go of the schoolish
notions in your head.
How do we "teach" the basic fundamentals? By
> that I mean, beyond-bedtime-story reading, spelling, writing, andThey will teach themselves this stuff when they're ready. A child in
> basic arithmetic.
a home where books are joyfully read will want to read, just as a
baby in a house where people speak will want to speak. A child in a
home where arithmetic is used, whether it be for cooking or
calculating the total on a shopping list or the angle for a new
cabinet, will want to know how it all works. They'll pick it up in
drips and drabs and before you know it, they can do it. You'll see as
your daughter learns and grows that there's very rarely a moment when
something is learned or not learned. It's all a continuum. A baby
babbles and learns to make noises with their mouth - are they
talking? Then they repeat a sound that they know makes a
word "mamamamamama" - is this talking? One day they point to
something and say a real word (my daughter's was "duck!" after which
she called all birds ducks :-) - but is this talking? They add more
and more and more words to their vocabulary and one day they string 2
words together "me milk!". Eventually they talk in complete sentences
but with limited vocabulary, and at some point you realize that their
vocabulary is the equivalent of an adults. At what point on this
continuum are they actually "talking"? Every step along the way is a
part of the learning, and all of it is exciting to watch and be a
part of and encourage. Right now, my daughter is sounding out every
word she sees, from cereal boxes to book covers. She's in that
process with reading and it's exciting to watch too. Some day, before
I know it, she'll be picking up books and reading them, and I won't
exactly be able to put my finger on the moment that she "learned to
read".
>My state requires a yearly written assessment ofFor us, it hasn't been a problem so far. Our son will do his 3rd
> Reading, Language Arts, Math, Science, and Social Studies, and
> standardized testing every three years starting at the end of third
> grade. How does the unschooling model conform to these
> requirements?
grade assessment next year and we're not worried about it. Though we
haven't sat down and done any kind of lessons, he can read, write,
and do 'rithmatic, he's just picked it up along the way. I can't
speak to the yearly assessment as our state doesn't have that.
> What do we say to Jane's parents when they pitch theWell, I wouldn't say anything for at least a few years. There's just
> inevitable fit?
not much point if you know someone is going to be antagonistic about
it. At 5 or 6 years, or even 7 (which is the compulsory attendance
age in our state), you can just say that you're homeschooling. By
then, I'm betting there will be even millions more homeschoolers than
there are now, and already it's not such an unusual thing. My mom (a
former educator) was fairly opposed at the first, but I always like
to say "the proof is in the pudding". Very few people, when they meet
our interesting, engaging, and exuberant kids, could have any
objections to the way we're choose to unschool them. My parents
definitely don't have any objections any more.
> If unschooling is a year-round, lifelong process,You can choose to decide however it will benefit her the best. In our
> how do we decide what grade she is in; by age or by academic
> achievement?
case, we chose the latest grade that we could, because it would delay
the year that our kids will be tested. Our son is on the cusp between
two school years, and we chose the earlier one (so right now, he's
officially in "2nd grade"). For a local homeschool resource center,
we might choose 3rd grade if he wants to get into a particular class
(he's very into robotics right now, for instance, and the robotics
classes they offer are for older kids).
> Our goal is a healthy, happy, well-adjusted daughter, unlimited inWell, I wouldn't worry too much about jail. I know at least that in
> her future prospects - while keeping Mom and Dad out of jail for
> failing to follow the rules. Any advice, resources, etc. that you
> folks can recommend would be gratefully received.
our state if you're out of compliance with the homeschool rules, they
send you a letter and you just have to get *in* compliance. I think
the worst thing that could happen would be that they would mandate
your child has to go to school.
You've got many years before you have to worry about any of the legal
aspects - probably at least 6 or 7. Right now, I'd just concentrate
on living in the moment, enjoying your daughter, and watching her
live and learn. Actually, that's great advice for the next couple of
decades!
Blue Skies,
-Robin-
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[email protected]
> I'm curious about what you didn't like about Montessori. I'm going toI know I'm not the one that originally wrote about Montesorri, but I thought I would share our experience.
> be hearing waaay too much about it at Christmas from dh's family
> because of one of the cousins who just started there. I'd love to
> hear some downside, even tho' I'll probably choose to keep my mouth
> shut.
We did Montesorri with our oldest dd for 1.5 years. Although she had a wonderfully loving teacher and room filled with so many things that encouraged learning, she was bored. Despite what Montesorri claims, they can still only offer so much "advance work" and they still push children to grasp ideas that they may not be ready for. I really believe the Waldorf philosophy that most children do not have all the skills necessary to read until around age 7. It's like teaching a toddler to ride a two wheel bicycle when they haven't even mastered walking. They need to be able to balance, stand well on one foot, be able to pedal their feet, and be able to do two things at the same time (pedal and steer). Most toddlers can't do these things well. That's why we give them tricycles or ride-on toys that they push with their feet.
There is still a lot of classroom competition. For instance, a child who is behind his peers feels the pressure to catch up. And the system is set up to make the "next step" seem better than the current one. "When you master addition and subtraction, then you can do *multiplication!*" And it is about mastering, not just attempting. They have to show mastery in a subject before they move on. I have a child that detests that sort of roteness to prove that she figured something out. I can't tell you how many times in our ventures into schooling that I heard, "Why do I have to do this over and over and over again to prove that I know how to do it? I'm ready to move on and learn something different NOW!"
There were many things that we didn't care for in the Montesorri school.
Michelle
Dana Matt
Despite what Montesorri
and my only real memory is of learning about
continents. They had these pie plates with land
masses in them, and they filled them up with water for
where the ocean would be. I said "Wow! I could just
walk across that ocean!" They said "No, you
couldn't--it is very big!" and I said "Well, maybe if
I was a giant!"...and they told me again "No, not even
if you were a giant"....And I remember crying in the
corner for the rest of the day....
Dana
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> claims, they can still only offer so much "advanceI attended a Montessori school as a little one--2-4,
> work" and they still push children to grasp ideas
> that they may not be ready for.
and my only real memory is of learning about
continents. They had these pie plates with land
masses in them, and they filled them up with water for
where the ocean would be. I said "Wow! I could just
walk across that ocean!" They said "No, you
couldn't--it is very big!" and I said "Well, maybe if
I was a giant!"...and they told me again "No, not even
if you were a giant"....And I remember crying in the
corner for the rest of the day....
Dana
=====
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100% Organic Fair Trade Coffee
Roasted to Perfection Daily
Free Home Delivery in Whatcom County
(360) 715-1900
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Danielle Conger
We looked into Montessori around the same time I was exploring
homeschooling, when Em (7) was around 2.5 years old. My biggest beef was
the rigidity of it. There is one right way to use something, and a child
cannot use that thing until they've been shown the "right" way and
cannot move on until they've demonstrated mastery of the "right" way. I
found that basic concept antithetical to real learning, though I did
like other aspects, particularly the way the method focuses on
empowering children and giving the "real" tools instead of pretend ones.
--Danielle
http://www.danielleconger.com/Homeschool/Welcomehome.html
homeschooling, when Em (7) was around 2.5 years old. My biggest beef was
the rigidity of it. There is one right way to use something, and a child
cannot use that thing until they've been shown the "right" way and
cannot move on until they've demonstrated mastery of the "right" way. I
found that basic concept antithetical to real learning, though I did
like other aspects, particularly the way the method focuses on
empowering children and giving the "real" tools instead of pretend ones.
--Danielle
http://www.danielleconger.com/Homeschool/Welcomehome.html
>
> > I'm curious about what you didn't like about Montessori. I'm going to
> > be hearing waaay too much about it at Christmas from dh's family
> > because of one of the cousins who just started there. I'd love to
> > hear some downside, even tho' I'll probably choose to keep my mouth
> > shut.
> I know I'm not the one that originally wrote about Montesorri, but I
> thought I would share our experience.
>
>
pam sorooshian
Montessori has a lack of unstructured fantasy pretend play time, lack
of pretend-play props, and lack of plentiful art supplies to be used
creatively.
-pam
of pretend-play props, and lack of plentiful art supplies to be used
creatively.
-pam
On Dec 7, 2004, at 4:18 PM, Danielle Conger wrote:
> There is one right way to use something, and a child
> cannot use that thing until they've been shown the "right" way and
> cannot move on until they've demonstrated mastery of the "right" way.
Deb Lewis
***Just a tad out of our price
range---***
Well, now I'm crushed.
Deb
range---***
Well, now I'm crushed.
Deb