adolescents
Faith Void
I am having a hard time parenting my 12 (soon to be 13 y/o) dd. She has
always been unschooled and we live in a family that respects the needs and
wants of everyone.
It seems that no matter what I say or do she sees it as controlling her. I
try to be gentle and respectful and she talks and acts like I am punishing
her. If I say anything about my feelings, concerns, etc she shuts down. She
refuses to acknowledge anything that isn't about her. It feels like she has
become tyrannical and controls the family. Its like she has decided that she
can't be uncomfortable or unhappy without it being someones fault, usually
me or her younger brother.
Today I asked her if she wanted to buy some socks. She had said that she
needed some. We had money. She said, "Cant' we go another day?"
I said, "Well It's Friday so this weekend with be mobbed." (the stores are
getting crowded with holiday shoppers already and I have a panic disorder).
Also she has recently started school at her request, so during the week she
is too tired to do anything more than school. Today was a day off.
So we came up with the solution that she would go for a walk and then have a
bit to space out and play video games. Then we would go get socks. The time
came to go get socks. I asked if she was ready. She whined a bit. I asked
her did she want to go or not. We could table it for sometime next week. No
she needed socks (I can't pick them out) and she needed to get them. So she
went but with a begrudging attitude. I centered myself and got ready.
In the car we were chatting about things. Her brother wants to try school
because she likes it so much. It was nice. I am not sure how it came to it
but we were talking about how she is really ready to live her own live but
that society doesn't work that way and its frustrating for her. I asked her
what I could do to help make her life more her own. To help her get
experiences that she wanted even in this society. She shut down. I didn't
know why and I asked her what was up. She got really grumpy and pissy. When
I asked her what was up she told me that I was complaining about her and
telling her what is wrong with her. I tried to explain that I wasn't, and
reiterated what I was saying. She just got more distance and angry.
She told me that she didn't even want to go shopping and wanted me to just
stopped talking. SO I didn't shut up and started getting really panicky and
frustrated. I pulled it together and centered myself. So we went home. No
socks. On the way home she told me that she wished I would be a different
parent and why couldn't I just punish her and not talk. It is really
frustrating because she says this alot.
Like if she does something I don't like (like leave the house without
telling me and I have no idea where she is, I feel scared) I will talk to
her about it. I want to figure out how it wont happen again. She just wants
me to ground her and it be over.
So that's where we are right now. She is "grounded". She is in her room
cleaning it. She has to come home from school and straight home each night
for a week. She said she prefeers this to "Talking". I feel manipulated. I
have never punished any of my kids! And I don't want to but feel like I have
run out of options with her.
A) she didn't want to go shopping and "kicked and screamed" til we didn't go
B) she didn't want to take responsibility for her actions so she refused to
talk
C) she wanted to explore being grounded so she set up a scenario to be
grounded.
I just feel like she could have said that she didn't really want to go and
work out an alternative time. I feel like she could have respectfully ask to
table the conversation if she was too tired or whatever. I feel like if she
wanted the experience of anything she could get it without manipulation.
I am just feeling at wits end with her. She has become more and more selfish
and controlling.
Please help with a perspective change and any useful suggestions.
Faith
--
http://faithvoid.blogspot.com/
www.bearthmama.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
always been unschooled and we live in a family that respects the needs and
wants of everyone.
It seems that no matter what I say or do she sees it as controlling her. I
try to be gentle and respectful and she talks and acts like I am punishing
her. If I say anything about my feelings, concerns, etc she shuts down. She
refuses to acknowledge anything that isn't about her. It feels like she has
become tyrannical and controls the family. Its like she has decided that she
can't be uncomfortable or unhappy without it being someones fault, usually
me or her younger brother.
Today I asked her if she wanted to buy some socks. She had said that she
needed some. We had money. She said, "Cant' we go another day?"
I said, "Well It's Friday so this weekend with be mobbed." (the stores are
getting crowded with holiday shoppers already and I have a panic disorder).
Also she has recently started school at her request, so during the week she
is too tired to do anything more than school. Today was a day off.
So we came up with the solution that she would go for a walk and then have a
bit to space out and play video games. Then we would go get socks. The time
came to go get socks. I asked if she was ready. She whined a bit. I asked
her did she want to go or not. We could table it for sometime next week. No
she needed socks (I can't pick them out) and she needed to get them. So she
went but with a begrudging attitude. I centered myself and got ready.
In the car we were chatting about things. Her brother wants to try school
because she likes it so much. It was nice. I am not sure how it came to it
but we were talking about how she is really ready to live her own live but
that society doesn't work that way and its frustrating for her. I asked her
what I could do to help make her life more her own. To help her get
experiences that she wanted even in this society. She shut down. I didn't
know why and I asked her what was up. She got really grumpy and pissy. When
I asked her what was up she told me that I was complaining about her and
telling her what is wrong with her. I tried to explain that I wasn't, and
reiterated what I was saying. She just got more distance and angry.
She told me that she didn't even want to go shopping and wanted me to just
stopped talking. SO I didn't shut up and started getting really panicky and
frustrated. I pulled it together and centered myself. So we went home. No
socks. On the way home she told me that she wished I would be a different
parent and why couldn't I just punish her and not talk. It is really
frustrating because she says this alot.
Like if she does something I don't like (like leave the house without
telling me and I have no idea where she is, I feel scared) I will talk to
her about it. I want to figure out how it wont happen again. She just wants
me to ground her and it be over.
So that's where we are right now. She is "grounded". She is in her room
cleaning it. She has to come home from school and straight home each night
for a week. She said she prefeers this to "Talking". I feel manipulated. I
have never punished any of my kids! And I don't want to but feel like I have
run out of options with her.
A) she didn't want to go shopping and "kicked and screamed" til we didn't go
B) she didn't want to take responsibility for her actions so she refused to
talk
C) she wanted to explore being grounded so she set up a scenario to be
grounded.
I just feel like she could have said that she didn't really want to go and
work out an alternative time. I feel like she could have respectfully ask to
table the conversation if she was too tired or whatever. I feel like if she
wanted the experience of anything she could get it without manipulation.
I am just feeling at wits end with her. She has become more and more selfish
and controlling.
Please help with a perspective change and any useful suggestions.
Faith
--
http://faithvoid.blogspot.com/
www.bearthmama.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Lyla Wolfenstein
A) she didn't want to go shopping and "kicked and screamed" til we didn't go>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
why did she have to kick and scream to not go? i don't mean to be trite, but i find with my adolescent and preadolsecent, when i "make" them push and cry and scream and basically explode to get their needs heard/met, it never really works out too well...
B) she didn't want to take responsibility for her actions so she refused to
talk>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
why was it required that she take responsibility for her actions to talk with you? i have learned to back wAAAAAY off of requiring conversations to go in any specific direction, if i want my kids to continue to come to me and talk to me when they are struggling, or really with anything. it sounds to me like she is showing you in several ways that she IS ready for something new and different in her life/relationship with you, and i know you asked her how you could help, but i don't know that she will necessarily have that kind of clarity. i find my teen daughter to be both responsible, mature, introspective, capable, etc., AND extremely sensitive, tender, vulnerable, and prone to perceiving any subtle hint of concern or stress as intense criticism.
C) she wanted to explore being grounded so she set up a scenario to be
grounded.
what has really helped the communication with my daughter is me backing way way off whenever there is any hint of her putting up a wall. and then, after a little space - reaching out with NO reference to the previous wall. finding ways to connect, to relax, to enjoy each other's company. and one of the ways in which she's shown her need for "something new" in terms of her own control over her life, etc., is to come to ME if she needs my help with plans, as opposed to me trying to organize it for her. so, if she needed socks, and i knew she wanted to pick them out, i'd way til she asked me to set up a time to go get them, rather than pushing or encouraging her to do something on a schedule that seh clearly wasn't happy with.
i am not clear what part of the discussion about her need for more freedom and independence your daughter was perceiving as criticism - do you have clarity on that?
also have you read "parent-teen breakthrough: the relationship approach"?
warmly, lyla
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
why did she have to kick and scream to not go? i don't mean to be trite, but i find with my adolescent and preadolsecent, when i "make" them push and cry and scream and basically explode to get their needs heard/met, it never really works out too well...
B) she didn't want to take responsibility for her actions so she refused to
talk>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
why was it required that she take responsibility for her actions to talk with you? i have learned to back wAAAAAY off of requiring conversations to go in any specific direction, if i want my kids to continue to come to me and talk to me when they are struggling, or really with anything. it sounds to me like she is showing you in several ways that she IS ready for something new and different in her life/relationship with you, and i know you asked her how you could help, but i don't know that she will necessarily have that kind of clarity. i find my teen daughter to be both responsible, mature, introspective, capable, etc., AND extremely sensitive, tender, vulnerable, and prone to perceiving any subtle hint of concern or stress as intense criticism.
C) she wanted to explore being grounded so she set up a scenario to be
grounded.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>i don't quite understand this either - it sounds like a polemic situation that didn't need to be polemic. i would NOT ground my kids even if they asked me to. but i also wouldn't require them to talk to me. - i don't see it as either/or. maybe if you think about it a different way - what if she had said - "i'd rather you spank me than make me talk" - would you have done it? i doubt it! :) maybe i am misunderstanding the grounding thing...
what has really helped the communication with my daughter is me backing way way off whenever there is any hint of her putting up a wall. and then, after a little space - reaching out with NO reference to the previous wall. finding ways to connect, to relax, to enjoy each other's company. and one of the ways in which she's shown her need for "something new" in terms of her own control over her life, etc., is to come to ME if she needs my help with plans, as opposed to me trying to organize it for her. so, if she needed socks, and i knew she wanted to pick them out, i'd way til she asked me to set up a time to go get them, rather than pushing or encouraging her to do something on a schedule that seh clearly wasn't happy with.
i am not clear what part of the discussion about her need for more freedom and independence your daughter was perceiving as criticism - do you have clarity on that?
also have you read "parent-teen breakthrough: the relationship approach"?
warmly, lyla
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Lorie Hulbert
First of all she is at the age when everyone is wrong and she is always right I know this because my daughter is almost 13.I think she is wanting attention and your nice so she knows she can do what she wants maybe be a little more stern with her and she might be OK with the grounding right now but she will get tired of it and hopefully think about how she is treating you I take the computer from my daughter when she is grounded and she hates it or even no TV.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Ronnie
MJ (now 17) and I went through a stretch where she was resenting me a lot. I think she was 13 or 14. I reacted by, well, freaking out because I had a lot of fear about parent-teen relationship. I took her pushing-away as a sign that she was going to hate me forever or something equally dramatic and unexamined. What it really was, was a crystal-clear message that I was crowding her.
I backed completely off and started waiting for her to come to me. I started being really aware and somewhat cautious of when I touched or hugged her. I let her initiate more (or not). When she talked, I tried to listen and enjoy without offering opinions.
That last might have been key, actually. She was taking a huge step forward into independence, and she wanted to try things her way for a while, without my two cents' worth. It was a reasonable thing to want!
As soon as I removed my energy (not my love) from the equation, it got a lot less dramatic. Things settled down almost immediately and improved by leaps over the next couple months.
In your case, Faith, it sounds like you're somewhat invested in the *talking* part of it. Well, you can't force her to talk any more than you can force her to learn! She *will* talk to you, and you *will* have opportunities to share your opinions and hopes, etc., and you *will* continue to have moments of amazing connection and communication. But it's going to happen more and more on her schedule, at her whim even--some of my deepest, warmest conversations with MJ now come out of the blue, just 'cause she's in the mood to talk. And if there are situations that come up that I want to discuss, the discussion is always made better by delaying it.
I really appreciate the sentiments behind this: "I asked her what I could do to help make her life more her own. To help her get experiences that she wanted even in this society." Just keep in mind that you can *offer* help without asking a question. In some ways, asking the "How can I help?" question assumes that of course there's something you can do and that of course your daughter will want that help. Instead, you can say, "Let me know if I can help." It's supportive without being intrusive.
Hugs!
Ronnie
http://sites.google.com/site/dragonflykaizen/
I backed completely off and started waiting for her to come to me. I started being really aware and somewhat cautious of when I touched or hugged her. I let her initiate more (or not). When she talked, I tried to listen and enjoy without offering opinions.
That last might have been key, actually. She was taking a huge step forward into independence, and she wanted to try things her way for a while, without my two cents' worth. It was a reasonable thing to want!
As soon as I removed my energy (not my love) from the equation, it got a lot less dramatic. Things settled down almost immediately and improved by leaps over the next couple months.
In your case, Faith, it sounds like you're somewhat invested in the *talking* part of it. Well, you can't force her to talk any more than you can force her to learn! She *will* talk to you, and you *will* have opportunities to share your opinions and hopes, etc., and you *will* continue to have moments of amazing connection and communication. But it's going to happen more and more on her schedule, at her whim even--some of my deepest, warmest conversations with MJ now come out of the blue, just 'cause she's in the mood to talk. And if there are situations that come up that I want to discuss, the discussion is always made better by delaying it.
I really appreciate the sentiments behind this: "I asked her what I could do to help make her life more her own. To help her get experiences that she wanted even in this society." Just keep in mind that you can *offer* help without asking a question. In some ways, asking the "How can I help?" question assumes that of course there's something you can do and that of course your daughter will want that help. Instead, you can say, "Let me know if I can help." It's supportive without being intrusive.
Hugs!
Ronnie
http://sites.google.com/site/dragonflykaizen/
Lyla Wolfenstein
----- Original Message -----
From: Ronnie
To: [email protected]
Sent: Friday, November 13, 2009 3:34 PM
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: adolescents
MJ (now 17) and I went through a stretch where she was resenting me a lot. I think she was 13 or 14. I reacted by, well, freaking out because I had a lot of fear about parent-teen relationship. I took her pushing-away as a sign that she was going to hate me forever or something equally dramatic and unexamined. What it really was, was a crystal-clear message that I was crowding her.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
yes! ronnie, i am so glad you said this - i meant to also say that i went throught this with my daughter too, and responded similarly, and it was really painful!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I backed completely off and started waiting for her to come to me. I started being really aware and somewhat cautious of when I touched or hugged her. I let her initiate more (or not). When she talked, I tried to listen and enjoy without offering opinions>>>>>>>>
YES!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
That last might have been key, actually. She was taking a huge step forward into independence, and she wanted to try things her way for a while, without my two cents' worth. It was a reasonable thing to want!>>>>>>>>>>>
yes, and i felt very concerned that this need for independence somehow made me not a good unschooling mother - because she wanted more distance and privacy for a while. i had ingrained in my mind, some notion or image of a perfectly attached, connected, happy, blissful mother-daugther relationship complete with total trust and best-friendiness. NOT a helpfiul ideal to hold myself up against! :)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
As soon as I removed my energy (not my love) from the equation, it got a lot less dramatic. Things settled down almost immediately and improved by leaps over the next couple months.
>>>>>>>>
exactly!
warmly, lyla
MARKETPLACE
Mom Power: Discover the community of moms doing more for their families, for the world and for each other Switch to: Text-Only, Daily Digest . Unsubscribe . Terms of Use.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
The Coffee Goddess
Ronnie, when you said this there was a flash for me--My husband, sweetest man alive, sometimes says "How can I help?", and in my mind, I go "He thinks I don't have it under control! He thinks I need help! He thinks I can't do this by myself!"
Go figure that a teen might also feel this way! ;)
Dana
. In some ways, asking the "How can I help?" question assumes that of course there's something you can do and that of course your daughter will want that help. Instead, you can say, "Let me know if I can help." It's supportive without being intrusive.
Hugs!
Ronnie
http://sites.google.com/site/dragonflykaizen/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Go figure that a teen might also feel this way! ;)
Dana
. In some ways, asking the "How can I help?" question assumes that of course there's something you can do and that of course your daughter will want that help. Instead, you can say, "Let me know if I can help." It's supportive without being intrusive.
Hugs!
Ronnie
http://sites.google.com/site/dragonflykaizen/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Beth Williams
Thanks for this thread Faith. I'm sorry you're having such a difficult time
right now, but I so appreciate hearing ideas before I get there. Lola, who
will be 9 on Monday, already needs space sometimes and I SO want to fix
everything!!! It's almost a physical pain that I have that I can't fix
things (and listening to her cry and there's nothing I can do to make it
better rips my heart out!). She's been like this all her life and I am
slowly learning to do what everyone's said and lovingly say, "I'm here if
you need me" or "Let me know if I can help in any way". I'm hoping I'll
have it down in the next 3 or so years (and then there's Eva, 6 who is even
MORE sensitive, in a totally different way). I have a huge fear of the teen
years! I'm just trying to breathe deep and figure out a way to ride the
wave.
Thanks all for the thoughts! Faith, I look forward to hearing what you find
that works.
Hugs,
Beth
On Fri, Nov 13, 2009 at 7:04 PM, The Coffee Goddess <hoffmanwilson@...
right now, but I so appreciate hearing ideas before I get there. Lola, who
will be 9 on Monday, already needs space sometimes and I SO want to fix
everything!!! It's almost a physical pain that I have that I can't fix
things (and listening to her cry and there's nothing I can do to make it
better rips my heart out!). She's been like this all her life and I am
slowly learning to do what everyone's said and lovingly say, "I'm here if
you need me" or "Let me know if I can help in any way". I'm hoping I'll
have it down in the next 3 or so years (and then there's Eva, 6 who is even
MORE sensitive, in a totally different way). I have a huge fear of the teen
years! I'm just trying to breathe deep and figure out a way to ride the
wave.
Thanks all for the thoughts! Faith, I look forward to hearing what you find
that works.
Hugs,
Beth
On Fri, Nov 13, 2009 at 7:04 PM, The Coffee Goddess <hoffmanwilson@...
> wrote:[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
> Ronnie, when you said this there was a flash for me--My husband, sweetest
> man alive, sometimes says "How can I help?", and in my mind, I go "He thinks
> I don't have it under control! He thinks I need help! He thinks I can't do
> this by myself!"
>
> Go figure that a teen might also feel this way! ;)
>
> Dana
>
> . In some ways, asking the "How can I help?" question assumes that of
> course there's something you can do and that of course your daughter will
> want that help. Instead, you can say, "Let me know if I can help." It's
> supportive without being intrusive.
>
> Hugs!
> Ronnie
> http://sites.google.com/site/dragonflykaizen/
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
Schuyler
I tend to talk too much. I talk all the time. On a long car trip my grandmother would pay me a quarter for 15 minutes of silence. Those were hard 15 minutes and quickly quarters became not worth it. My talking is a non-issue when things are good. But when things are bad, my desire to discuss, at great length, whatever is going on is not helpful. It doesn't change anything. It doesn't improve anything. It just adds words to hurting and sensitive ears who hear me as being critical or harsh. I don't want to do that. So I've learned to be quieter. I've learned that not everything needs to be discussed.
About the socks. If it were me and Linnaea wanted to go get socks I'd offer to take her. If she was too busy in that moment to go I'd say I can take you but we have to go by whenever or we'll have to do it another day. And that would be it. My offering is a gift. What she does with that gift is her deal. If she came to me too late to get them I wouldn't be snippy or grouchy, I'd be honestly sympathetic and talk about going on Saturday (even with the crowds) or ordering them on-line or knitting a pair or whatever.
About the grounding. I wouldn't do that. I'd go upstairs and say I don't want to ground you. I don't want to have grounding be part of my parenting toolbox. I'd free her and offer to go get socks now or whenever was good for the both of us and I'd let it go.
Talk less and listen more. Don't worry about something not happening again. It'll happen again even if you can verbally peg down why it happened. Things happen. Lightening strikes the same place many times. Be willing to bend and not break or snap back.
It's hard to have things not be controllable, but people are often not controllable.
Schuyler
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
About the socks. If it were me and Linnaea wanted to go get socks I'd offer to take her. If she was too busy in that moment to go I'd say I can take you but we have to go by whenever or we'll have to do it another day. And that would be it. My offering is a gift. What she does with that gift is her deal. If she came to me too late to get them I wouldn't be snippy or grouchy, I'd be honestly sympathetic and talk about going on Saturday (even with the crowds) or ordering them on-line or knitting a pair or whatever.
About the grounding. I wouldn't do that. I'd go upstairs and say I don't want to ground you. I don't want to have grounding be part of my parenting toolbox. I'd free her and offer to go get socks now or whenever was good for the both of us and I'd let it go.
Talk less and listen more. Don't worry about something not happening again. It'll happen again even if you can verbally peg down why it happened. Things happen. Lightening strikes the same place many times. Be willing to bend and not break or snap back.
It's hard to have things not be controllable, but people are often not controllable.
Schuyler
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
plaidpanties666
--- In [email protected], Lorie Hulbert <ambash12345@...> wrote:
It doesn't sound to me like the girl in question wants attention, though. She's saying, very very clearly, from my perspective, that she needs more space.
How does generating more hate in your home create a loving and supportive environment? Kids don't need reasons to hate, especially teens. They need reasons to love, to feel safe and supported. Its an overwhelming time in a person's life! Its challenging to support people in this time of life! Please don't add any more hate to your child's world. Listen to her and treat her as gently as you possibly can.
---Meredith (Mo 8, Ray 16)
>This is terribly dismissive of teens. Young people are frequently surrounded by adults who refuse to listen, who contradict themselves endlessly, and who fail to practice what they preach. Its no wonder most teens think little of adults - they finally have the tools to see the hypocricy of the world and it infuriates them. Its one of the things that makes people in their teens so wonderful.
> First of all she is at the age when everyone is wrong and she is >always right I know this because my daughter is almost 13.
>>I think she is wanting attentionAttention is a Need. Its the responsibility of parents to provide for the needs of children.
It doesn't sound to me like the girl in question wants attention, though. She's saying, very very clearly, from my perspective, that she needs more space.
>>I take the computer from my daughter when she is grounded and she hates it or even no TV************************
How does generating more hate in your home create a loving and supportive environment? Kids don't need reasons to hate, especially teens. They need reasons to love, to feel safe and supported. Its an overwhelming time in a person's life! Its challenging to support people in this time of life! Please don't add any more hate to your child's world. Listen to her and treat her as gently as you possibly can.
---Meredith (Mo 8, Ray 16)
plaidpanties666
--- In [email protected], Faith Void <littlemsvoid@...> wrote:
The very idea that you have feelings is probably enough to make her feel overwhelmed - OMG, I have to deal with YOUR feelings TOO? Blaaaaaahhhhhhhh!
She's incredibly needy right now, but part of the problem is she doesn't know what she needs. She has entirely new sensations moving through her body and mind, and that's baffling.
If that's true of your dd, then No Wonder she's saying she'd rather be punished! She's lost the moment you start trying to help! Poor kid! Poor helpful mom! You're using the wrong strategy. Its NOT you, or her, its that you're using a communicaiton style that's utterly ineffective under these circumstances. The good news is that you can change that. You can learn to talk less and listen more, to give your dd the space she needs to think.
So step back, please, and see that her process is very very different from yours right now. Talking is the last thing she can do.
Here's a thought - she likes to write? Can you start a project of writing back and forth to each other? It doesn't matter what, I don't think, at first, just see it as a way to start another kind of dialog, one where she has alllll the time and space she needs to clarify her own thoughts.
---Meredith (Mo 8, Ray 16)
> If I say anything about my feelings, concerns, etc she shuts down. SheOf course not - she's overwhelmed by her own feelings right now, and many of those are going to be big and conflicted. That's Part of what it is to be a young teen, swamped with hormones and all that goes with them.
> refuses to acknowledge anything that isn't about her.
The very idea that you have feelings is probably enough to make her feel overwhelmed - OMG, I have to deal with YOUR feelings TOO? Blaaaaaahhhhhhhh!
She's incredibly needy right now, but part of the problem is she doesn't know what she needs. She has entirely new sensations moving through her body and mind, and that's baffling.
> It seems that no matter what I say or do she sees it as controlling her.Remember the toddler who wanted to pour her own juice even though she made a mess every time? Did any of your kids do that? Or the baby who was sure she could walk down a flight of stairs and why are you picking me up, mom? I can do this. Its the same thing, but bigger, newer and scarier bc she has more skills and information, now. She's wanting to do more of Everything her own way.
>>I asked if she was ready. She whined a bit. I askedShe wants to buy socks but doesn't want to go to the store and doesn't want you to pick them out. Gosh do I know That feeling! The difference is that I've had twenty five more years to figure out how to deal with that internal conflict than she has - I wasn't exactly graceful about it at 13, lemme tell ya!
> her did she want to go or not. We could table it for sometime next week. No
> she needed socks (I can't pick them out) and she needed to get them. So she
> went but with a begrudging attitude.
>>I asked herIt might help you to catch yourself when you see her as "shutting down". She's developing more internal skills, and dealing with big new feelings, so turning her attention inward may be a really important activity for her. She needs time and space to process, and she may not be able to do that while talking - I can't process while talking or while someone else is talking! I have to go away and think and then come back to something.
> what I could do to help make her life more her own. To help her get
> experiences that she wanted even in this society. She shut down. I didn't
> know why and I asked her what was up.
> I asked her what was up she told me that I was complaining about her andInstead of arguing, try to hear the feelings behind the words. She took your comment critically. That's not about you, its about her, her uncertain emotions right now, but its something you can respond to by being more careful of your words. Wait more before saying or asking Anything, even for clarification. Assume there's a whole Pile of processing going on while you wait, and that's all about her right now. Its not something you can, necessarily help with.
> telling her what is wrong with her.
>>On the way home she told me that she wished I would be a differentPersonally, when someone is trying to talk, to get me to talk, and I want to think about something I feel like I'm drowing in a sea of words! I get so overwhelmed I can't hear what the other person is saying. Being required to isolate myself would seem like sheer heaven in that kind of situation.
> parent and why couldn't I just punish her and not talk. It is really
> frustrating because she says this alot.
If that's true of your dd, then No Wonder she's saying she'd rather be punished! She's lost the moment you start trying to help! Poor kid! Poor helpful mom! You're using the wrong strategy. Its NOT you, or her, its that you're using a communicaiton style that's utterly ineffective under these circumstances. The good news is that you can change that. You can learn to talk less and listen more, to give your dd the space she needs to think.
> I just feel like she could have said...She had conflicting urges, was feeling overwhelmed. In that kind of situation, I often can't "just" say anything. Saying anything is an enormous effort involving finding words to fit feelings and Then finding words that aren't "Leave me the F*** alone (but not too alone, can you maybe just hide outside the door and cough occasionally so I know you still love me?)!!!!" Even with two decades more practice than your dd has, I still usually get stuck trying to find the nicer, more coherent, less whiney, way of expressing that, and tend to shut down. Happily, I have a partner who understands all this and knows what "Grrr... not now" really means!
So step back, please, and see that her process is very very different from yours right now. Talking is the last thing she can do.
Here's a thought - she likes to write? Can you start a project of writing back and forth to each other? It doesn't matter what, I don't think, at first, just see it as a way to start another kind of dialog, one where she has alllll the time and space she needs to clarify her own thoughts.
---Meredith (Mo 8, Ray 16)
theburkemommy
Meredith said, "This is terribly dismissive of teens. Young people are frequently surrounded by adults who refuse to listen, who contradict themselves endlessly, and who fail to practice what they preach. Its no wonder most teens think little of adults - they finally have the tools to see the hypocricy of the world and it infuriates them. It's one of the things that makes people in their teens so wonderful."
Thanks for this post, Meredith!
I'm working hard to be a mom that will listen to my kids and practice what I "preach", but I fail constantly! Thankfully, my kids feel safe enough to point out my hypocricy. I have really been faced with these truths over the last couple of months, so seeing it written in words that make complete sense is VERY helpful.
Of course it PISSES them off to be surrounded by adults that do all of those things you listed! I believe I'm doing a much better job than most mainstream parents, but I have MUCH room for improvement. I'm really realizing how often I do these things! I'm finding myself wanting to take things away in an attempt to control their behavior, but I KNOW that if I would treat them in a way that tells them that they are loved, important, and treasured then they won't want/need to act in a way that is so negative and/or "nasty"! It's up to ME to make a change in me.
Meredith said, "How does generating more hate in your home create a loving and supportive environment? Kids don't need reasons to hate, especially teens. They need reasons to love, to feel safe and supported. Its an overwhelming time in a person's life! Its challenging to support people in this time of life! Please don't add any more hate to your child's world. Listen to her and treat her as gently as you possibly can."
I'm surrounded by friends that use control and punishments with their kids, and they encourage me to use punishments and control...which I don't. They view me as "weak" because I want to treat my kids with respect. I know I am still responsible for guiding my kids (and I do), but I can do that in a way that is loving, supportive, and uplifting...not reactionary and with force or control.
Anyway, thank you for you insight and the simple way in which you worded it!
Thanks for this post, Meredith!
I'm working hard to be a mom that will listen to my kids and practice what I "preach", but I fail constantly! Thankfully, my kids feel safe enough to point out my hypocricy. I have really been faced with these truths over the last couple of months, so seeing it written in words that make complete sense is VERY helpful.
Of course it PISSES them off to be surrounded by adults that do all of those things you listed! I believe I'm doing a much better job than most mainstream parents, but I have MUCH room for improvement. I'm really realizing how often I do these things! I'm finding myself wanting to take things away in an attempt to control their behavior, but I KNOW that if I would treat them in a way that tells them that they are loved, important, and treasured then they won't want/need to act in a way that is so negative and/or "nasty"! It's up to ME to make a change in me.
Meredith said, "How does generating more hate in your home create a loving and supportive environment? Kids don't need reasons to hate, especially teens. They need reasons to love, to feel safe and supported. Its an overwhelming time in a person's life! Its challenging to support people in this time of life! Please don't add any more hate to your child's world. Listen to her and treat her as gently as you possibly can."
I'm surrounded by friends that use control and punishments with their kids, and they encourage me to use punishments and control...which I don't. They view me as "weak" because I want to treat my kids with respect. I know I am still responsible for guiding my kids (and I do), but I can do that in a way that is loving, supportive, and uplifting...not reactionary and with force or control.
Anyway, thank you for you insight and the simple way in which you worded it!
Jenna Robertson
My eldest is 13. We made it through her 12th year because I learned a few things quickly:
When she wanted space she got space, as much as she needed. She wasn't rejecting me and it wasn't about me (and trust that just because they need space now, they won't always be shutting the door in your face. Now my daughter wants lots and lots of hugs, but only when she asks for them.)
She needs to talk and I need to listen (we both process verbally so that was a challenge for me.)
I need to always be on her side, supporting her, loving her, buying her the eye-liner or curling iron or taking her to the mall even though the mall makes me crazy (and I need to figure out what I can do to make it a fun trip.. We usually go for no more that 1 1/2 hours and we get something small to eat or drink while we are there. Try going right as they open or the last 1/2 hour before they close, too.)
When I screw up I admit it and try again, or at least apologize.
We walk the dog together every night, just the two of us. She talks, I listen. It's done wonders for our relationship. Doing something together can trigger conversation.
With my middle daughter (age 10) we've found that writing back and forth helps. Talking triggers emotions for both of us and it usually isn't constructive. If she's upset about something she writes it down and hands it to me or leaves it on my pillow. We can even sit on the bed and pass notes back and forth, it works wonders!
Part of helping is giving them the space they need to figure out what it is they need :).
Jenna
"If I had influence with the good fairy who is supposed to preside over the christening of all children, I would ask that her gift to each child in the world be a sense of wonder so indestructible that it would last throughout life."
- Rachel Carson
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
When she wanted space she got space, as much as she needed. She wasn't rejecting me and it wasn't about me (and trust that just because they need space now, they won't always be shutting the door in your face. Now my daughter wants lots and lots of hugs, but only when she asks for them.)
She needs to talk and I need to listen (we both process verbally so that was a challenge for me.)
I need to always be on her side, supporting her, loving her, buying her the eye-liner or curling iron or taking her to the mall even though the mall makes me crazy (and I need to figure out what I can do to make it a fun trip.. We usually go for no more that 1 1/2 hours and we get something small to eat or drink while we are there. Try going right as they open or the last 1/2 hour before they close, too.)
When I screw up I admit it and try again, or at least apologize.
We walk the dog together every night, just the two of us. She talks, I listen. It's done wonders for our relationship. Doing something together can trigger conversation.
With my middle daughter (age 10) we've found that writing back and forth helps. Talking triggers emotions for both of us and it usually isn't constructive. If she's upset about something she writes it down and hands it to me or leaves it on my pillow. We can even sit on the bed and pass notes back and forth, it works wonders!
Part of helping is giving them the space they need to figure out what it is they need :).
Jenna
"If I had influence with the good fairy who is supposed to preside over the christening of all children, I would ask that her gift to each child in the world be a sense of wonder so indestructible that it would last throughout life."
- Rachel Carson
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
argwolff
--- In [email protected], "Ronnie" <hmsdragonfly@...> wrote:
I used to ask my husband, "What can I do to help?" and it would make him soooo mad. He finally told me that he hated that question and would prefer if I asked, "Would you like a cup of tea?"
I get it now. I was trying to be helpful and supportive, but sometimes it's not so helpful to ask a person what they need -- to make them think about it or make them ask for something -- especially if they may be feeling unsure or conflicted about their feelings. But offering to do something nice for them (tea or foot rub or whatever) *shows* the love and support and opens up that space for talking (or not) when they're ready.
Now, hopefully I'll remember this when my kids are teenagers!
best,
Angela Wolff
>In some ways, asking the "How can I help?" question assumes that of course there's something you can do and that of course your daughter will want that help. Instead, you can say, "Let me know if I can help." It's supportive without being intrusive.****
>
I used to ask my husband, "What can I do to help?" and it would make him soooo mad. He finally told me that he hated that question and would prefer if I asked, "Would you like a cup of tea?"
I get it now. I was trying to be helpful and supportive, but sometimes it's not so helpful to ask a person what they need -- to make them think about it or make them ask for something -- especially if they may be feeling unsure or conflicted about their feelings. But offering to do something nice for them (tea or foot rub or whatever) *shows* the love and support and opens up that space for talking (or not) when they're ready.
Now, hopefully I'll remember this when my kids are teenagers!
best,
Angela Wolff
gruvystarchild
~~ First of all she is at the age when everyone is wrong and she is always right I know this because my daughter is almost 13.I think she is wanting attention and your nice so she knows she can do what she wants maybe be a little more stern with her and she might be OK with the grounding right now but she will get tired of it and hopefully think about how she is treating you I take the computer from my daughter when she is grounded and she hates it or even no TV.~~
Please, please, please read for a while before posting advice. I recommend this as a courtesy to new members so they don't get their feelings hurt when we all react strongly to posts like this.
This list exists to move people AWAY from the kind of parenting being posted above. We want to help parents understand true respect and relationships that aren't a top-down hierarchy. Grounding is punitive. Punishments are not a way to get closer to respect, closer to understanding and mutual agreement.
If it's something disrespectful to do to an adult (can you imagine grounding your spouse?) then it's worth examining and trying to find better/more helpful solutions. My children are their own persons, with their own feelings and rights and capabilities. It would be very rude of me to treat them as beings without rights...which punishment does.
I don't want to be treated that way, so I don't believe it's useful or helpful to treat children that way.
Ren
radicalunschooling.blogspot.com
Please, please, please read for a while before posting advice. I recommend this as a courtesy to new members so they don't get their feelings hurt when we all react strongly to posts like this.
This list exists to move people AWAY from the kind of parenting being posted above. We want to help parents understand true respect and relationships that aren't a top-down hierarchy. Grounding is punitive. Punishments are not a way to get closer to respect, closer to understanding and mutual agreement.
If it's something disrespectful to do to an adult (can you imagine grounding your spouse?) then it's worth examining and trying to find better/more helpful solutions. My children are their own persons, with their own feelings and rights and capabilities. It would be very rude of me to treat them as beings without rights...which punishment does.
I don't want to be treated that way, so I don't believe it's useful or helpful to treat children that way.
Ren
radicalunschooling.blogspot.com
Elizabeth Winslow
I'm learning SO much here!! It's not that I think I'm a *bad* parent...but,
certainly, I'm learning how to be a better human and in turn, a better mom
to my boys ;)
Just wanted to say thanks!!!
certainly, I'm learning how to be a better human and in turn, a better mom
to my boys ;)
Just wanted to say thanks!!!
On Sat, Nov 14, 2009 at 8:24 PM, gruvystarchild <starsuncloud@...>wrote:
>
>
>
> ~~ First of all she is at the age when everyone is wrong and she is always
> right I know this because my daughter is almost 13.I think she is wanting
> attention and your nice so she knows she can do what she wants maybe be a
> little more stern with her and she might be OK with the grounding right now
> but she will get tired of it and hopefully think about how she is treating
> you I take the computer from my daughter when she is grounded and she hates
> it or even no TV.~~
>
> Please, please, please read for a while before posting advice. I recommend
> this as a courtesy to new members so they don't get their feelings hurt when
> we all react strongly to posts like this.
>
> This list exists to move people AWAY from the kind of parenting being
> posted above. We want to help parents understand true respect and
> relationships that aren't a top-down hierarchy. Grounding is punitive.
> Punishments are not a way to get closer to respect, closer to understanding
> and mutual agreement.
>
> If it's something disrespectful to do to an adult (can you imagine
> grounding your spouse?) then it's worth examining and trying to find
> better/more helpful solutions. My children are their own persons, with their
> own feelings and rights and capabilities. It would be very rude of me to
> treat them as beings without rights...which punishment does.
>
> I don't want to be treated that way, so I don't believe it's useful or
> helpful to treat children that way.
>
> Ren
> radicalunschooling.blogspot.com
>
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Faith Void
On Fri, Nov 13, 2009 at 5:48 PM, Lyla Wolfenstein <lylaw@...> wrote:
said she wanted to go but acted pissy about going. I offered several
options. I understand now that she just didn't know.
-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
but occasionally I get "stuck". I am starting to see that even though *I*
don't criticize her it feels/sounds like it to her. I had this really
intense cry that night and REALLY thought about some interactions with my
own mother growing up. yikes!
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=-=--=--==-=-=-=-=-=-=
that. I was coloring the whole scene around my need to connect with her and
she didn't want to right then. And I can hear my mothers voice (err) saying
that I'm doing soemthing wrong.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
deciding not to ask her.
-=-=-=--=-=-=-
check it out.
thanks Lyla.
Faith
http://faithvoid.blogspot.com/
www.bearthmama.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>***I realized that I was very emotional when I wrote this and in pain. She
>
> A) she didn't want to go shopping and "kicked and screamed" til we didn't
> go>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>
> why did she have to kick and scream to not go? i don't mean to be trite,
> but i find with my adolescent and preadolsecent, when i "make" them push and
> cry and scream and basically explode to get their needs heard/met, it never
> really works out too well...
>
said she wanted to go but acted pissy about going. I offered several
options. I understand now that she just didn't know.
-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
>***UM yeah I was being ridiculous. usually things are good between us
>
> B) she didn't want to take responsibility for her actions so she refused to
> talk>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>
> why was it required that she take responsibility for her actions to talk
> with you? i have learned to back wAAAAAY off of requiring conversations to
> go in any specific direction, if i want my kids to continue to come to me
> and talk to me when they are struggling, or really with anything. it sounds
> to me like she is showing you in several ways that she IS ready for
> something new and different in her life/relationship with you, and i know
> you asked her how you could help, but i don't know that she will necessarily
> have that kind of clarity. i find my teen daughter to be both responsible,
> mature, introspective, capable, etc., AND extremely sensitive, tender,
> vulnerable, and prone to perceiving any subtle hint of concern or stress as
> intense criticism.
>
but occasionally I get "stuck". I am starting to see that even though *I*
don't criticize her it feels/sounds like it to her. I had this really
intense cry that night and REALLY thought about some interactions with my
own mother growing up. yikes!
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=-=--=--==-=-=-=-=-=-=
>***Looking back I was requiring her to talk to met my needs. I was stuck on
>
> C) she wanted to explore being grounded so she set up a scenario to be
> grounded.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>
> i don't quite understand this either - it sounds like a polemic situation
> that didn't need to be polemic. i would NOT ground my kids even if they
> asked me to. but i also wouldn't require them to talk to me. - i don't see
> it as either/or. maybe if you think about it a different way - what if she
> had said - "i'd rather you spank me than make me talk" - would you have done
> it? i doubt it! :) maybe i am misunderstanding the grounding thing...
>
that. I was coloring the whole scene around my need to connect with her and
she didn't want to right then. And I can hear my mothers voice (err) saying
that I'm doing soemthing wrong.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
>***I am not sure and with all the emotion involved I cant sort it out. I am
> what has really helped the communication with my daughter is me backing way
> way off whenever there is any hint of her putting up a wall. and then, after
> a little space - reaching out with NO reference to the previous wall.
> finding ways to connect, to relax, to enjoy each other's company. and one of
> the ways in which she's shown her need for "something new" in terms of her
> own control over her life, etc., is to come to ME if she needs my help with
> plans, as opposed to me trying to organize it for her. so, if she needed
> socks, and i knew she wanted to pick them out, i'd way til she asked me to
> set up a time to go get them, rather than pushing or encouraging her to do
> something on a schedule that seh clearly wasn't happy with.
>
> i am not clear what part of the discussion about her need for more freedom
> and independence your daughter was perceiving as criticism - do you have
> clarity on that?
>
deciding not to ask her.
-=-=-=--=-=-=-
>***no I haven't heard of it, even though it may have been listed before. Ill
> also have you read "parent-teen breakthrough: the relationship approach"?
>
check it out.
thanks Lyla.
Faith
>--
>
>
http://faithvoid.blogspot.com/
www.bearthmama.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Faith Void
On Fri, Nov 13, 2009 at 6:34 PM, Ronnie <hmsdragonfly@...> wrote:
a moment of disconnect on her part will result in a complete breakdown of
our relationship. I was abused as a child and struggle with the fall out. I
am really scared about her as this teenage person. I can hear the messed up
things my parents said/did and in my head. I know that this is another layer
that I need to resolve. I want to protect her from the pain I felt as a teen
in my relationship with my parents. I *know* this is not possible.,
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
reminder sign for myself but unfortunately she can read now :-)
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=--=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
should help.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
have been fine and we've had several good conversations since then. I think
that the key was giving her space. The part for me to work on was the
"grounding". I don't want to force her to want punishment because I can't
give her space.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Faith
--
http://faithvoid.blogspot.com/
www.bearthmama.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>***Yes! Thanks Ronnie. I think occasionally I have this irrational fear that
>
> MJ (now 17) and I went through a stretch where she was resenting me a lot.
> I think she was 13 or 14. I reacted by, well, freaking out because I had a
> lot of fear about parent-teen relationship. I took her pushing-away as a
> sign that she was going to hate me forever or something equally dramatic and
> unexamined. What it really was, was a crystal-clear message that I was
> crowding her.
>
a moment of disconnect on her part will result in a complete breakdown of
our relationship. I was abused as a child and struggle with the fall out. I
am really scared about her as this teenage person. I can hear the messed up
things my parents said/did and in my head. I know that this is another layer
that I need to resolve. I want to protect her from the pain I felt as a teen
in my relationship with my parents. I *know* this is not possible.,
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
>***I know this works as this is typically what i do. Id love to make a
> I backed completely off and started waiting for her to come to me. I
> started being really aware and somewhat cautious of when I touched or hugged
> her. I let her initiate more (or not). When she talked, I tried to listen
> and enjoy without offering opinions.
>
reminder sign for myself but unfortunately she can read now :-)
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=--=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
>***This is where I struggle, but being aware of this and planning ahead
> That last might have been key, actually. She was taking a huge step forward
> into independence, and she wanted to try things her way for a while, without
> my two cents' worth. It was a reasonable thing to want!
>
> As soon as I removed my energy (not my love) from the equation, it got a
> lot less dramatic. Things settled down almost immediately and improved by
> leaps over the next couple months.
>
should help.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
>***Geez, y'all always remind me of all these things I *know! Actually things
> In your case, Faith, it sounds like you're somewhat invested in the
> *talking* part of it. Well, you can't force her to talk any more than you
> can force her to learn! She *will* talk to you, and you *will* have
> opportunities to share your opinions and hopes, etc., and you *will*
> continue to have moments of amazing connection and communication. But it's
> going to happen more and more on her schedule, at her whim even--some of my
> deepest, warmest conversations with MJ now come out of the blue, just 'cause
> she's in the mood to talk. And if there are situations that come up that I
> want to discuss, the discussion is always made better by delaying it.
>
have been fine and we've had several good conversations since then. I think
that the key was giving her space. The part for me to work on was the
"grounding". I don't want to force her to want punishment because I can't
give her space.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
>Thanks
> I really appreciate the sentiments behind this: "I asked her what I could
> do to help make her life more her own. To help her get experiences that she
> wanted even in this society." Just keep in mind that you can *offer* help
> without asking a question. In some ways, asking the "How can I help?"
> question assumes that of course there's something you can do and that of
> course your daughter will want that help. Instead, you can say, "Let me know
> if I can help." It's supportive without being intrusive.
>
> ***I am definitely going to work on this.
Faith
--
http://faithvoid.blogspot.com/
www.bearthmama.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Faith Void
>Quit Taking It Personally (for those that don't know)
> yes, and i felt very concerned that this need for independence somehow made
> me not a good unschooling mother - because she wanted more distance and
> privacy for a while. i had ingrained in my mind, some notion or image of a
> perfectly attached, connected, happy, blissful mother-daugther relationship
> complete with total trust and best-friendiness. NOT a helpfiul ideal to hold
> myself up against! :)
>
>
> ****I think this is a big part for me too. I need to remember QTIP!
Faith
--
http://faithvoid.blogspot.com/
www.bearthmama.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Faith Void
On Fri, Nov 13, 2009 at 5:49 PM, Lorie Hulbert <ambash12345@...>wrote:
(or any) child in this light will strengthen my relationship with her.
These are some of the parenting messages I have in my head that I am
working to silence. I prefer having a more generous and loving vision of who
my child it. Granted this was a time that I fail to hold that vision, I
still see her as a respectful and wonderful human.
Faith
--
http://faithvoid.blogspot.com/
www.bearthmama.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>***I appreciate that you are trying to help. I don't find that viewing my
>
> First of all she is at the age when everyone is wrong and she is always
> right I know this because my daughter is almost 13.I think she is wanting
> attention and your nice so she knows she can do what she wants maybe be a
> little more stern with her and she might be OK with the grounding right now
> but she will get tired of it and hopefully think about how she is treating
> you I take the computer from my daughter when she is grounded and she hates
> it or even no TV.
>
(or any) child in this light will strengthen my relationship with her.
These are some of the parenting messages I have in my head that I am
working to silence. I prefer having a more generous and loving vision of who
my child it. Granted this was a time that I fail to hold that vision, I
still see her as a respectful and wonderful human.
Faith
--
http://faithvoid.blogspot.com/
www.bearthmama.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Faith Void
On Sat, Nov 14, 2009 at 2:00 PM, plaidpanties666 <meredith@...>wrote:
am doing this. It is antithetical to what i trust and believe to be right
and true for our family.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
that toddlerhood was one of my favorite ages because I LOVE LOVE LOVE the
autonomy issues. I love to watch the baby become an independent free
thinking human with will (mine have lots of will). I will now start to
embrace the vision that teens are like toddlers in a grown up way. More
autonomy issues, my favorite.! I hope this will help me shift my thoughts
and actions.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
world. I *know* that I don't want to parent her with the shame and baggage
from my parents.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
need a new tool. I know that first I can take Diana's advice and now yours
and "SHUT UP". I think I can remember that! Ears open, mouth closed.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-==-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
http://faithvoid.blogspot.com/
www.bearthmama.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>***{reaching through computer to give you a big hug} I can't believe that I
>
> --- In [email protected]<unschoolingbasics%40yahoogroups.com>,
> Faith Void <littlemsvoid@...> wrote:
> > If I say anything about my feelings, concerns, etc she shuts down. She
> > refuses to acknowledge anything that isn't about her.
>
> Of course not - she's overwhelmed by her own feelings right now, and many
> of those are going to be big and conflicted. That's Part of what it is to be
> a young teen, swamped with hormones and all that goes with them.
>
> The very idea that you have feelings is probably enough to make her feel
> overwhelmed - OMG, I have to deal with YOUR feelings TOO? Blaaaaaahhhhhhhh!
>
> She's incredibly needy right now, but part of the problem is she doesn't
> know what she needs. She has entirely new sensations moving through her body
> and mind, and that's baffling.
>
am doing this. It is antithetical to what i trust and believe to be right
and true for our family.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
>***remember I am living it! I have a toddler and a teen! I have always said
> > It seems that no matter what I say or do she sees it as controlling her.
>
> Remember the toddler who wanted to pour her own juice even though she made
> a mess every time? Did any of your kids do that? Or the baby who was sure
> she could walk down a flight of stairs and why are you picking me up, mom? I
> can do this. Its the same thing, but bigger, newer and scarier bc she has
> more skills and information, now. She's wanting to do more of Everything her
> own way.
>
that toddlerhood was one of my favorite ages because I LOVE LOVE LOVE the
autonomy issues. I love to watch the baby become an independent free
thinking human with will (mine have lots of will). I will now start to
embrace the vision that teens are like toddlers in a grown up way. More
autonomy issues, my favorite.! I hope this will help me shift my thoughts
and actions.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
>***I know I wasn't either. I sometimes forget that she is still new to this
> >>I asked if she was ready. She whined a bit. I asked
> > her did she want to go or not. We could table it for sometime next week.
> No
> > she needed socks (I can't pick them out) and she needed to get them. So
> she
> > went but with a begrudging attitude.
>
> She wants to buy socks but doesn't want to go to the store and doesn't want
> you to pick them out. Gosh do I know That feeling! The difference is that
> I've had twenty five more years to figure out how to deal with that internal
> conflict than she has - I wasn't exactly graceful about it at 13, lemme tell
> ya!
>
world. I *know* that I don't want to parent her with the shame and baggage
from my parents.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
>***yes, big shift here, it is not all about me.
> >>I asked her
> > what I could do to help make her life more her own. To help her get
> > experiences that she wanted even in this society. She shut down. I didn't
> > know why and I asked her what was up.
>
> It might help you to catch yourself when you see her as "shutting down".
> She's developing more internal skills, and dealing with big new feelings, so
> turning her attention inward may be a really important activity for her. She
> needs time and space to process, and she may not be able to do that while
> talking - I can't process while talking or while someone else is talking! I
> have to go away and think and then come back to something.
>
>
> > I asked her what was up she told me that I was complaining about her and
> > telling her what is wrong with her.
>
> Instead of arguing, try to hear the feelings behind the words. She took
> your comment critically. That's not about you, its about her, her uncertain
> emotions right now, but its something you can respond to by being more
> careful of your words. Wait more before saying or asking Anything, even for
> clarification. Assume there's a whole Pile of processing going on while you
> wait, and that's all about her right now. Its not something you can,
> necessarily help with.
>
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
>***I love this list. I love the painful truth and the passionate honesty. I
>
> >>On the way home she told me that she wished I would be a different
> > parent and why couldn't I just punish her and not talk. It is really
> > frustrating because she says this alot.
>
> Personally, when someone is trying to talk, to get me to talk, and I want
> to think about something I feel like I'm drowing in a sea of words! I get so
> overwhelmed I can't hear what the other person is saying. Being required to
> isolate myself would seem like sheer heaven in that kind of situation.
>
> If that's true of your dd, then No Wonder she's saying she'd rather be
> punished! She's lost the moment you start trying to help! Poor kid! Poor
> helpful mom! You're using the wrong strategy. Its NOT you, or her, its that
> you're using a communicaiton style that's utterly ineffective under these
> circumstances. The good news is that you can change that. You can learn to
> talk less and listen more, to give your dd the space she needs to think.
>
need a new tool. I know that first I can take Diana's advice and now yours
and "SHUT UP". I think I can remember that! Ears open, mouth closed.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-==-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
>Faith
> > I just feel like she could have said...
>
> She had conflicting urges, was feeling overwhelmed. In that kind of
> situation, I often can't "just" say anything. Saying anything is an enormous
> effort involving finding words to fit feelings and Then finding words that
> aren't "Leave me the F*** alone (but not too alone, can you maybe just hide
> outside the door and cough occasionally so I know you still love me?)!!!!"
> Even with two decades more practice than your dd has, I still usually get
> stuck trying to find the nicer, more coherent, less whiney, way of
> expressing that, and tend to shut down. Happily, I have a partner who
> understands all this and knows what "Grrr... not now" really means!
>
> So step back, please, and see that her process is very very different from
> yours right now. Talking is the last thing she can do.
>
> Here's a thought - she likes to write? Can you start a project of writing
> back and forth to each other? It doesn't matter what, I don't think, at
> first, just see it as a way to start another kind of dialog, one where she
> has alllll the time and space she needs to clarify her own thoughts.
>
> ***Thanks Meredith, this is a great idea. She loves writing and I should
> met her where she is comfortable.
>
>--
> _
>
http://faithvoid.blogspot.com/
www.bearthmama.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Faith Void
>***Malila has recently started school, her decision on her own terms. The
>
> Of course it PISSES them off to be surrounded by adults that do all of
> those things you listed! I
>
first day she came back (full of joy) with one large complaint. She was
SHOCKED at how the teachers talked to the kids. She was appalled and the
totally disregard for their humanity. No respect.
She is still choosing school but the culture shock of disrespect really
bothered her. In fact I need to shape up so that It continues to bother her.
I never for a second want her to think that being talked to that way is ok.
Faith
--
http://faithvoid.blogspot.com/
www.bearthmama.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce Fetteroll
On Nov 15, 2009, at 7:22 AM, Faith Void wrote:
(Actually How To Talk So Kids Will Listen has several lists for
parents to copy and hang up as reminders to themselves.)
It would let her see you acknowledge that you're a work in progress
and that you're serious about making better choices. You could even
get her to help remind you when she notices you're talking too much
(or whatever you'd like to work on.)
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> I know this works as this is typically what i do. Id love to make aNo reason you can't! It could be "Listen More, Talk Less."
> reminder sign for myself but unfortunately she can read now :-)
(Actually How To Talk So Kids Will Listen has several lists for
parents to copy and hang up as reminders to themselves.)
It would let her see you acknowledge that you're a work in progress
and that you're serious about making better choices. You could even
get her to help remind you when she notices you're talking too much
(or whatever you'd like to work on.)
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Faith Void Taintor
Great ideas! I think I'll do that today.
I've seen two book recommendations, are there any others.
The Parent Teen Breakthrough
And I'll revisit How to Talk...How to Listen.
Thanks
Faith
Sent from my iPhone
On Nov 15, 2009, at 9:56 AM, Joyce Fetteroll <jfetteroll@...>
wrote:
I've seen two book recommendations, are there any others.
The Parent Teen Breakthrough
And I'll revisit How to Talk...How to Listen.
Thanks
Faith
Sent from my iPhone
On Nov 15, 2009, at 9:56 AM, Joyce Fetteroll <jfetteroll@...>
wrote:
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> On Nov 15, 2009, at 7:22 AM, Faith Void wrote:
>
> > I know this works as this is typically what i do. Id love to make a
> > reminder sign for myself but unfortunately she can read now :-)
>
> No reason you can't! It could be "Listen More, Talk Less."
>
> (Actually How To Talk So Kids Will Listen has several lists for
> parents to copy and hang up as reminders to themselves.)
>
> It would let her see you acknowledge that you're a work in progress
> and that you're serious about making better choices. You could even
> get her to help remind you when she notices you're talking too much
> (or whatever you'd like to work on.)
>
> Joyce
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
Ronnie
I expanded my experiences here into a blog post. If you're interested, you can read it here: http://zombieprincess.blogspot.com/2009/11/off-leash.html
--- In [email protected], "Ronnie" <hmsdragonfly@...> wrote:
>
> MJ (now 17) and I went through a stretch where she was resenting me
> a lot. I think she was 13 or 14. I reacted by, well, freaking out
> because I had a lot of fear about parent-teen relationship. I took
> her pushing-away as a sign that she was going to hate me forever or
> something equally dramatic and unexamined. What it really was, was
> a crystal-clear message that I was crowding her.
Lyla Wolfenstein
beautiful ronnie, thank you!
----- Original Message -----
From: Ronnie
To: [email protected]
Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 1:35 PM
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: adolescents
I expanded my experiences here into a blog post. If you're interested, you can read it here: http://zombieprincess.blogspot.com/2009/11/off-leash.html
--- In [email protected], "Ronnie" <hmsdragonfly@...> wrote:
>
> MJ (now 17) and I went through a stretch where she was resenting me
> a lot. I think she was 13 or 14. I reacted by, well, freaking out
> because I had a lot of fear about parent-teen relationship. I took
> her pushing-away as a sign that she was going to hate me forever or
> something equally dramatic and unexamined. What it really was, was
> a crystal-clear message that I was crowding her.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]