Is it the unschooling???? routines/structure, classes, real world....Long...
crazycanuckgurl
Brief re-intro as I lurk but rarely post. I am the mom of a 9 yr old dd and 6 yr old ds who have never been to school. I know some of you from this list, you may know me from unschooling.info, Mothering, ShinewithUnschooling, etc. I have posted here once in a while.
I am having a hard time with unschooling right now, with doubts not flooding my mind, and having it come at me from all sides as of late. I am having problems shutting off my mind and my "self talk" right now and need help.
I have a spirited, perceptive, feel-everything-intense dd, who needs to move, touch, be hands on. While there is SO much positive about that (wow, the creativity and joy and enthusiasm that comes from this girl!!! And I always tell dh she is going to be the team leader someday boosting the flagging troops), in the "real world" as of late it has been difficult to work around as she has wanted to participate in more things outside the home. She would most definitely be labelled in a school setting, with all the things they usually label kids with. That's why I unschool rather than school at home... she does so much better learning what and when she wants and us exploring interests together, and I know she would be crushed in spirit in school and I could tell that by an early age. The only thing she has ever been "pegged" with (age 5) is an auditory processing issue by an audiologist, after a 4 hour exam (done to rule out hearing issues/speech issues) The audiologist acutally was great, and said she was happy we homeschooled, and provided us with many strategies for her like how to cope with background noise. It is something that makes her look "inattentive" however.
Well, Steph has wanted to be in a cartooning class. She has attended 4 classes so far, and has 4 more to go. We talked ahead of time about that is was a "sit down" class and how to cope, as she had alot of difficulty in this type of setting when she was younger, needing me to "guide" her and attend and explain. The audiologist said this had to do with processing issues. She elected me not to come with her. (Last year she did Girl Guides, with no problems). Unfortunately, I was not told the time changed, so not only were we late for the first class, I was late picking her up by 20 min. She panicked, and was extremely upset. This, since that day, has even branched off to panicking when I am late picking her up from her grandma's after work...I work 6-8 days a month so they go there for 4-5 hours. We so far have provided her with a watch, an estimation of when I will pick her up (I am a nurse and emergencies happen and I cannot always leave exactly on time and have even phoned and told her when I would be coming), an OK for her to phone me, etc, etc. She has never had a good "sense" of the passage of time or keeping track of it(what say an hour "feels" like) so I am not sure this contributes.
She says she still wants to go to class. BUT Dh told me today he has been called by a person at the art center requesting we sit with her. Apparently she cannot sit still, continually gets up and is looking for me, is inattentive, etc. DD phoned me one Tues with 15 min left in class, wondering where I was even.
Well, hearing that today made me UPSET adn brought all sorts of lingering doubts up and I am having a hard time shaking it. DH and I left my kids at Grandma's today for an hour to attend a meeting and she got anxious about my return again, and MIL told me today she thinks dd needs "anti-anxiety medication" or something...she was the one who had to sit with her in class yesterday as Dh and I were working and couldn't take her, and I know she doesn't approve of us homeschooling anyway and is chalking every difficulty with dd up to that. I feel tremendous pressure and expectation from that. YUK. I know that Dh is right when he tells me it is all about ME and how I think I am being perceived (aren't I supposed to be the "perfect" homeschooling mom? The other hs-er s I know are judging me. And isn't unschooling the "right way"?). Forgive me as I think out loud here...I REALLY need some of you wise people to refute my crappy thoughts...
Is it the unschooling that contributes to this "inattentiveness"? Would she be different if she was in school? WHY O WHY is the real world set up so school like? Should I try to fit her in that round hole and am I wrong for not doing so? Is she ever going to be able to cope if she has no routine? Jeez, I am surrounded by very strict school-at-home-ers here who have the perfect sit down and shut-up kids sequential type kids who PAY ATTENTION, love workbooks, and who know all their math facts while my dd cannot (really) even add and subtract confidently yet! GAWD, I know I am comparing and that is horrible! I have been explicitly told if I had more structure and routine maybe she wouldn't be this way. Of course that leads me to all the more thoughts like I am doing a dis-service to her by unschooling, I let her watch too much TV over the years, and that contributes to her inattentiveness, that she will never learn to cope in an environment that is a bit boring like a meeting or be late for work as an adult or something because she has not learned to toe-the-line all those years at school and function in an environment of STRUCTURE!!! LIKE IN THE REAL WORLD! I feel frustation that she WANTS (or says she does) to do all these things, like attend homeschool gym time or this cartooning class and yet I am having to "guide" her (like helping her sit out and breathe at gym time last week when she was screaming and overwhelmed at getting crowded in the net as a goalie...even though I explained hockey to her... and just "lost it", or making sure she is not hungry or overtired) much like I did when she was a toddler. Does she really have "problems", and I am sticking my head in the sand and denying them by saying as an unschooler they don't matter outside of the school world or by trying to keep her from situations that she has problems?
AND, I am feeling horrible that I am seeing my dd negatively right now and thinking this is all my fault or something. I don't even know what I am getting at acutally...I had to just VENT all this today. I need help....last week I got so frustrated at her and let her know it on the way home from homeschool gym time. She is sensitve and so am I, and I felt horrible after as I remember how I felt when my mom didn't "approve" of me.
I need someone to help me take a deep breath myself and I have no unschoolers in real life who I can go to about this or would understand, to quiet my fears, or won't say just go get a curriculum or put her in school, so that is why I am here. Most of the time I feel so confident in unschooling and have read "all the books", but lately not (obviously or I wouldn't be here).
Sorry this is so long but the class incidents this last few weeks has just brought this undercurrent of "is all this [unschooling] really the right thing?" to a BIG head. If any of you can help and be an "objective third party" I would appreciate it. I am embarrassed to even post this but I want help more than maitaining my pride. Thanks!
Tina, Stephanie, and Jonathan here in Manitoba Canada
I am having a hard time with unschooling right now, with doubts not flooding my mind, and having it come at me from all sides as of late. I am having problems shutting off my mind and my "self talk" right now and need help.
I have a spirited, perceptive, feel-everything-intense dd, who needs to move, touch, be hands on. While there is SO much positive about that (wow, the creativity and joy and enthusiasm that comes from this girl!!! And I always tell dh she is going to be the team leader someday boosting the flagging troops), in the "real world" as of late it has been difficult to work around as she has wanted to participate in more things outside the home. She would most definitely be labelled in a school setting, with all the things they usually label kids with. That's why I unschool rather than school at home... she does so much better learning what and when she wants and us exploring interests together, and I know she would be crushed in spirit in school and I could tell that by an early age. The only thing she has ever been "pegged" with (age 5) is an auditory processing issue by an audiologist, after a 4 hour exam (done to rule out hearing issues/speech issues) The audiologist acutally was great, and said she was happy we homeschooled, and provided us with many strategies for her like how to cope with background noise. It is something that makes her look "inattentive" however.
Well, Steph has wanted to be in a cartooning class. She has attended 4 classes so far, and has 4 more to go. We talked ahead of time about that is was a "sit down" class and how to cope, as she had alot of difficulty in this type of setting when she was younger, needing me to "guide" her and attend and explain. The audiologist said this had to do with processing issues. She elected me not to come with her. (Last year she did Girl Guides, with no problems). Unfortunately, I was not told the time changed, so not only were we late for the first class, I was late picking her up by 20 min. She panicked, and was extremely upset. This, since that day, has even branched off to panicking when I am late picking her up from her grandma's after work...I work 6-8 days a month so they go there for 4-5 hours. We so far have provided her with a watch, an estimation of when I will pick her up (I am a nurse and emergencies happen and I cannot always leave exactly on time and have even phoned and told her when I would be coming), an OK for her to phone me, etc, etc. She has never had a good "sense" of the passage of time or keeping track of it(what say an hour "feels" like) so I am not sure this contributes.
She says she still wants to go to class. BUT Dh told me today he has been called by a person at the art center requesting we sit with her. Apparently she cannot sit still, continually gets up and is looking for me, is inattentive, etc. DD phoned me one Tues with 15 min left in class, wondering where I was even.
Well, hearing that today made me UPSET adn brought all sorts of lingering doubts up and I am having a hard time shaking it. DH and I left my kids at Grandma's today for an hour to attend a meeting and she got anxious about my return again, and MIL told me today she thinks dd needs "anti-anxiety medication" or something...she was the one who had to sit with her in class yesterday as Dh and I were working and couldn't take her, and I know she doesn't approve of us homeschooling anyway and is chalking every difficulty with dd up to that. I feel tremendous pressure and expectation from that. YUK. I know that Dh is right when he tells me it is all about ME and how I think I am being perceived (aren't I supposed to be the "perfect" homeschooling mom? The other hs-er s I know are judging me. And isn't unschooling the "right way"?). Forgive me as I think out loud here...I REALLY need some of you wise people to refute my crappy thoughts...
Is it the unschooling that contributes to this "inattentiveness"? Would she be different if she was in school? WHY O WHY is the real world set up so school like? Should I try to fit her in that round hole and am I wrong for not doing so? Is she ever going to be able to cope if she has no routine? Jeez, I am surrounded by very strict school-at-home-ers here who have the perfect sit down and shut-up kids sequential type kids who PAY ATTENTION, love workbooks, and who know all their math facts while my dd cannot (really) even add and subtract confidently yet! GAWD, I know I am comparing and that is horrible! I have been explicitly told if I had more structure and routine maybe she wouldn't be this way. Of course that leads me to all the more thoughts like I am doing a dis-service to her by unschooling, I let her watch too much TV over the years, and that contributes to her inattentiveness, that she will never learn to cope in an environment that is a bit boring like a meeting or be late for work as an adult or something because she has not learned to toe-the-line all those years at school and function in an environment of STRUCTURE!!! LIKE IN THE REAL WORLD! I feel frustation that she WANTS (or says she does) to do all these things, like attend homeschool gym time or this cartooning class and yet I am having to "guide" her (like helping her sit out and breathe at gym time last week when she was screaming and overwhelmed at getting crowded in the net as a goalie...even though I explained hockey to her... and just "lost it", or making sure she is not hungry or overtired) much like I did when she was a toddler. Does she really have "problems", and I am sticking my head in the sand and denying them by saying as an unschooler they don't matter outside of the school world or by trying to keep her from situations that she has problems?
AND, I am feeling horrible that I am seeing my dd negatively right now and thinking this is all my fault or something. I don't even know what I am getting at acutally...I had to just VENT all this today. I need help....last week I got so frustrated at her and let her know it on the way home from homeschool gym time. She is sensitve and so am I, and I felt horrible after as I remember how I felt when my mom didn't "approve" of me.
I need someone to help me take a deep breath myself and I have no unschoolers in real life who I can go to about this or would understand, to quiet my fears, or won't say just go get a curriculum or put her in school, so that is why I am here. Most of the time I feel so confident in unschooling and have read "all the books", but lately not (obviously or I wouldn't be here).
Sorry this is so long but the class incidents this last few weeks has just brought this undercurrent of "is all this [unschooling] really the right thing?" to a BIG head. If any of you can help and be an "objective third party" I would appreciate it. I am embarrassed to even post this but I want help more than maitaining my pride. Thanks!
Tina, Stephanie, and Jonathan here in Manitoba Canada
rebecca de
Tina,
whew you have a lot on your plate... However, reading your post and as much as your having doubts, fears, and anxiety yourself about you daughter I sincerely feel that you still have it all in check. Set the in-laws, friends, or anyone's thoughts and recognize that your daughter is really just fine where she is today! So what she gets up a looks around, so what if she doesn't sit still -- is she still getting what she wanted from the class? the only thing I would think to do there is you or dad go with her! sounds like being 'forgotten' for 20 minutes scared her. I think this to shall pass if just give her the time .... and be consistant once again to not be late.
It always bothers me when people start screaming drugs! whose that going to help her -- or those around her that don't want to deal.. Now I know absolutely nothing about this "dis-order" however I wonder if there would be a allopathic/holistic doctor around that could help find some nutritional help in regards to or find some safe herbs, oils or such to help.
I think it is good that you are reaching within yourself and questioning everything! I'm sure this group will have great advice.
As for putting her in a school -- ughh I say! imagine how much she will be reprimanded -- teachers can't stand a wiggly child. As a substitute I couldn't believe how much I expected children to sit still -- even knowing the other side -- unschooling. She would surely be put in some sort of special education (unless canada doesn't implement those types of programs) and I'm never so sure that special ed programs really always have the best interest of the child or just still the schools agenda.
Maybe write down all the reasons why you are unschooling and all the great things you see in your bright children.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
whew you have a lot on your plate... However, reading your post and as much as your having doubts, fears, and anxiety yourself about you daughter I sincerely feel that you still have it all in check. Set the in-laws, friends, or anyone's thoughts and recognize that your daughter is really just fine where she is today! So what she gets up a looks around, so what if she doesn't sit still -- is she still getting what she wanted from the class? the only thing I would think to do there is you or dad go with her! sounds like being 'forgotten' for 20 minutes scared her. I think this to shall pass if just give her the time .... and be consistant once again to not be late.
It always bothers me when people start screaming drugs! whose that going to help her -- or those around her that don't want to deal.. Now I know absolutely nothing about this "dis-order" however I wonder if there would be a allopathic/holistic doctor around that could help find some nutritional help in regards to or find some safe herbs, oils or such to help.
I think it is good that you are reaching within yourself and questioning everything! I'm sure this group will have great advice.
As for putting her in a school -- ughh I say! imagine how much she will be reprimanded -- teachers can't stand a wiggly child. As a substitute I couldn't believe how much I expected children to sit still -- even knowing the other side -- unschooling. She would surely be put in some sort of special education (unless canada doesn't implement those types of programs) and I'm never so sure that special ed programs really always have the best interest of the child or just still the schools agenda.
Maybe write down all the reasons why you are unschooling and all the great things you see in your bright children.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
plaidpanties666
--- In [email protected], "crazycanuckgurl" <jamesandtina942@...> wrote:
Classroom environments are challenging! I'm a naturally "busy" person, I don't sit still well, don't attend well unless I'm actually doing something with my hands. I managed school by doing a lot of doodling (almost got thrown out of a private school for knitting in class - no one would believe I could pay better attention with my hands busy). Ray wasn't a doodler, he's more the whole-body movement type and drove his teachers right up the wall.
It might help you to think about how she best learns and processes information - is she very hands on? Does she like big movements? Does she look at things over and over? I'm guessing listening isn't her best way of learning, but there's a Lot of that in a class. She needs more tools. If you can get a sense of how she goes about learning and thinking, then you can offer her some better tools for managing class situations.
A big problem may be that she's a social learner! That was part of Ray's difficulty. It wasn't that he couldn't listen, it was more that he couldn't listen Passively. He does fine in a more conversational format, like learning something from a buddy.
Oops, you already sort of answered my question! If she's very hands on, you might see if you can work out some strategies with her for things she can Do during class. Can she be actually working on a project while also taking the class? You may have to explain things to her teachers so they don't get upset about it, but having a physical focus is sooooooo important. It actually makes a difference in how they brain processes information.
Er... can you get someone Else to take her? Or maybe if you're not available, then its not a good idea for her to go to class. Can you find someone else to babysit, too? Really, if your mil is creating this much stress, its worth looking to reduce contact with her. Her disapproval could well be feeding that anxiety!
Families aren't like school. Jobs aren't like school. Self employment isn't anything like school. University isn't even like school.
Think about how often people complain that schools aren't Preparing kids for the world. Its the most common complaint.
That's personality. Really. We tried school and school at home with Ray and he was Never a sit down shut up pay attention kid. Mo could probably be bullied into being one of those kids (most of the time). So those other parents have kids who are easy or easily bullied. You don't.
Its all rubbish. Ray doesn't put up with the boredom of his job, or the labor of blacksmithing because he fidgetted in a chair for a couple years (he resisted doing tedious or difficult things in school), he does it bc he values the result. He wants money, so he works. He wants to make fun things with metal, so he works. YOUR dd is dealing with frustration and anxiety so that she can learn more about making comics - she still wants to go to class? Despite everything? Then she, at 9, already knows how to do something disagreeable for the sake of a result. That's really typical of unschoolers, btw. They learn, long before schooled kids, Why people do hard things, boring things, frustrating things by choice. My 8yo knows. My now 16yo had to deschool a couple years before he knew, but he does now.
If you put your dd in school, impose structure on her, she'll forget how to do that. She'll put her energy into resisting what's hard and dull. That's why people goof off at work, they're used to resisting.
Now, all that being said, do you think she wants more routine? If your work schedule is a little kooky, and its stressing her out, then it might help to have more of a routine in y'all's life. What that looks like is going to depend on y'all. Look at when you're kids tend to be hungry and make it a matter of routine to offer food then. Look at when you're kids tend to be restless and make it a matter of routine to offer something active around that time of day. Create a schedule around specific needs, not blindly, based on convention. Do you see what I mean?
Can you change your work schedule? I know, you probably worked hard to get something where you don't have to be away from home much, but if you can find an option with more regular hours it could make things more restful for your dd.
You can also look carefully at your environment and how your dd reacts to mess vs organization. For awhile it was important that certain things always be put back Exactly in the same place in our house so that Ray could find them. The least amount of stress, and he lost the ability to search for things. We discovered this one day when he didn't eat breakfast bc the cereal wasn't on the shelf - it was on the table! Check to see if disarray of any kind seems to generate anxiety for your dd.
If she does have "problems" then what? Seriously, what would you do differently? If she needs help, she needs help. Would a diagnosis make you feel better about standing up for her needs? If so, find a diagnosis!
There are plenty of situations that I avoid. I avoid large groups, for the most part. I avoid certain kinds of jobs (desk jobs!). I avoid certain kinds of traffic conditions. I avoid certain climates. That's My real life. Its not a bad strategy And its only one strategy. I've also learned how to manange in big groups by seeing them composed of smaller groups. I've learned to psyche myself up for certain driving conditions, at times, and to know when I need to get off the road. I only go north in the summer.
For a long time we avoided taking Ray into certain situations. Now he does fine. There are developmental issues at work, too. Puberty changes a Lot of things! Especially where social issues are concerned.
We still avoid taking Mo into certain situations (differet from Ray). When she was younger, we avoided even more, but she's sloooooowly becoming more able to handle things, she's gaining more tools. Often it seems like kids won't learn much about dealing with the world for awhile and then Shazam! all of a sudden there's a leap in abilities. Development isn't nice and even, its all plateaus and sudden leaps.
Have you appologised? Don't forget to appologise. And maybe talk with her about her fears, what does it feel like to her? What are some of the thoughts that come with those fears? Talk about how you handle your Own problems, too. Its hard to model our internal processes, but we can talk about them, share strategies, and even just acknowledge, to our kids, that we're still figuring it out, too. Adulthood isn't some magical state of perfection, we're still learning all the time, just like our children.
---Meredith (Mo 8, Ray 15)
>> Is it the unschooling that contributes to this "inattentiveness"?Nope. Ray was far more "inattentive" when he was in school.
Classroom environments are challenging! I'm a naturally "busy" person, I don't sit still well, don't attend well unless I'm actually doing something with my hands. I managed school by doing a lot of doodling (almost got thrown out of a private school for knitting in class - no one would believe I could pay better attention with my hands busy). Ray wasn't a doodler, he's more the whole-body movement type and drove his teachers right up the wall.
It might help you to think about how she best learns and processes information - is she very hands on? Does she like big movements? Does she look at things over and over? I'm guessing listening isn't her best way of learning, but there's a Lot of that in a class. She needs more tools. If you can get a sense of how she goes about learning and thinking, then you can offer her some better tools for managing class situations.
A big problem may be that she's a social learner! That was part of Ray's difficulty. It wasn't that he couldn't listen, it was more that he couldn't listen Passively. He does fine in a more conversational format, like learning something from a buddy.
> I have a spirited, perceptive, feel-everything-intense dd, who needs to move, touch, be hands on.**************
Oops, you already sort of answered my question! If she's very hands on, you might see if you can work out some strategies with her for things she can Do during class. Can she be actually working on a project while also taking the class? You may have to explain things to her teachers so they don't get upset about it, but having a physical focus is sooooooo important. It actually makes a difference in how they brain processes information.
>>MIL told me today she thinks dd needs "anti-anxiety medication" or something...she was the one who had to sit with her in class yesterday as Dh and I were working and couldn't take her, and I know she doesn't approve of us homeschooling anyway and is chalking every difficulty with dd up to that. I feel tremendous pressure and expectation from that.**********************
Er... can you get someone Else to take her? Or maybe if you're not available, then its not a good idea for her to go to class. Can you find someone else to babysit, too? Really, if your mil is creating this much stress, its worth looking to reduce contact with her. Her disapproval could well be feeding that anxiety!
>>Would she be different if she was in school?Yes. Her self esteem would likely be reduced to shreds. Her anxiety would likely go through the roof. Very likely, you'd continually be dealing with problems with the school, unless you managed to get her on a medication that could make her sit still and be quiet all day long (and nevermind anything else, like having a personality).
>>WHY O WHY is the real world set up so school like?It isn't. You have her in a Class! You said Guides was no problem? Its a whole different format - more social, more hands on. That's not like school.
Families aren't like school. Jobs aren't like school. Self employment isn't anything like school. University isn't even like school.
Think about how often people complain that schools aren't Preparing kids for the world. Its the most common complaint.
>>Jeez, I am surrounded by very strict school-at-home-ers here who have the perfect sit down and shut-up kids sequential type kids who PAY ATTENTION********************
That's personality. Really. We tried school and school at home with Ray and he was Never a sit down shut up pay attention kid. Mo could probably be bullied into being one of those kids (most of the time). So those other parents have kids who are easy or easily bullied. You don't.
>>she will never learn to cope in an environment that is a bit boring like a meeting or be late for work as an adult or something because she has not learned to toe-the-line all those years at school and function in an environment of STRUCTURE!!! LIKE IN THE REAL WORLD!********************
Its all rubbish. Ray doesn't put up with the boredom of his job, or the labor of blacksmithing because he fidgetted in a chair for a couple years (he resisted doing tedious or difficult things in school), he does it bc he values the result. He wants money, so he works. He wants to make fun things with metal, so he works. YOUR dd is dealing with frustration and anxiety so that she can learn more about making comics - she still wants to go to class? Despite everything? Then she, at 9, already knows how to do something disagreeable for the sake of a result. That's really typical of unschoolers, btw. They learn, long before schooled kids, Why people do hard things, boring things, frustrating things by choice. My 8yo knows. My now 16yo had to deschool a couple years before he knew, but he does now.
If you put your dd in school, impose structure on her, she'll forget how to do that. She'll put her energy into resisting what's hard and dull. That's why people goof off at work, they're used to resisting.
Now, all that being said, do you think she wants more routine? If your work schedule is a little kooky, and its stressing her out, then it might help to have more of a routine in y'all's life. What that looks like is going to depend on y'all. Look at when you're kids tend to be hungry and make it a matter of routine to offer food then. Look at when you're kids tend to be restless and make it a matter of routine to offer something active around that time of day. Create a schedule around specific needs, not blindly, based on convention. Do you see what I mean?
Can you change your work schedule? I know, you probably worked hard to get something where you don't have to be away from home much, but if you can find an option with more regular hours it could make things more restful for your dd.
You can also look carefully at your environment and how your dd reacts to mess vs organization. For awhile it was important that certain things always be put back Exactly in the same place in our house so that Ray could find them. The least amount of stress, and he lost the ability to search for things. We discovered this one day when he didn't eat breakfast bc the cereal wasn't on the shelf - it was on the table! Check to see if disarray of any kind seems to generate anxiety for your dd.
>>Does she really have "problems", and I am sticking my head in the sand and denying them by saying as an unschooler they don't matter outside of the school world or by trying to keep her from situations that she has problems?**********************
If she does have "problems" then what? Seriously, what would you do differently? If she needs help, she needs help. Would a diagnosis make you feel better about standing up for her needs? If so, find a diagnosis!
There are plenty of situations that I avoid. I avoid large groups, for the most part. I avoid certain kinds of jobs (desk jobs!). I avoid certain kinds of traffic conditions. I avoid certain climates. That's My real life. Its not a bad strategy And its only one strategy. I've also learned how to manange in big groups by seeing them composed of smaller groups. I've learned to psyche myself up for certain driving conditions, at times, and to know when I need to get off the road. I only go north in the summer.
For a long time we avoided taking Ray into certain situations. Now he does fine. There are developmental issues at work, too. Puberty changes a Lot of things! Especially where social issues are concerned.
We still avoid taking Mo into certain situations (differet from Ray). When she was younger, we avoided even more, but she's sloooooowly becoming more able to handle things, she's gaining more tools. Often it seems like kids won't learn much about dealing with the world for awhile and then Shazam! all of a sudden there's a leap in abilities. Development isn't nice and even, its all plateaus and sudden leaps.
>>last week I got so frustrated at her and let her know it on the way home from homeschool gym time. She is sensitve and so am I, and I felt horrible after as I remember how I felt when my mom didn't "approve" of me.************************
Have you appologised? Don't forget to appologise. And maybe talk with her about her fears, what does it feel like to her? What are some of the thoughts that come with those fears? Talk about how you handle your Own problems, too. Its hard to model our internal processes, but we can talk about them, share strategies, and even just acknowledge, to our kids, that we're still figuring it out, too. Adulthood isn't some magical state of perfection, we're still learning all the time, just like our children.
---Meredith (Mo 8, Ray 15)
mizelenius
---
students who are inattentive, distractible and/or fail to complete assignments. Often, efforts to
change such behaviors focus on consequences rewards, loss of privileges, etc. However, such
efforts frequently have limited success."
http://www.nasponline.org/communications/spawareness/Off-Task%20Behavior.pdf
>No! "One of the most common reasons for referral to school support personnel is "off-task" behavior
> Is it the unschooling that contributes to this "inattentiveness"? Would she be different if she was in school? WHY O WHY is the real world set up so school like?
students who are inattentive, distractible and/or fail to complete assignments. Often, efforts to
change such behaviors focus on consequences rewards, loss of privileges, etc. However, such
efforts frequently have limited success."
http://www.nasponline.org/communications/spawareness/Off-Task%20Behavior.pdf
Véronique Van Gelderen
Hi everyone,
I've been reading along on this list for some months now, and I am very grateful for all the inspiration it has provided. Mostly, the questions i struggle with tend to be asked and answered just around the time i need them, but not this time. So here comes:
i have a five-year old daughter and a two-year old son. We live in a large city in The Netherlands, in a second-floor appartment (no garden) in a nice but not very green neighbourhood. Luckily though, the beach is a 20-minute bicycle ride away and there is a nice forest/park about the same distance from our house.
And here comes the problem of the moment: my 5-year old is going through a phase in which she just doesn't want to go out of the house. As far as i can tell, in her present-moment world-view, outside is cold/windy/sometimes wet and generally unpleasant. The thing is, i really need to be out and moving for as much of a day as possible, because of a tendency to get depressed (especially when the weather is cold/windy/sometimes wet :)) if i don't get enough fresh air/exercise and contact with the natural world.
I can't really leave without her because she finds it scary to be left behind. I have tried going for a run around our block, which she thought was fine, but it didn't really help me, and that's when i realized i need the trees or the beach, or something else other than concrete to bring me back to my center. I have tried going out when my husband comes home from work but it's dark by then, so the beach is out, and the park is closed. Living as we do on one income, we can't afford a baby-sitter for me to go on a daily walk, and although i can (and do) ask a friend occasionally, it's not feasible to have this as a standing/daily arrangement.
The problem is compounded by the fact that my two-year old would like to spend HIS ENTIRE LIFE out in the woods. He is an outdoorsy type of toddler who can spend hours in the dirt on some wood-trail finding stuff. So it's not only me who is not getting her fix, it's him too.
What's more, the times when my dd does go outside with us, to the woods or the beach, she clearly enjoys herself, spends her time roaming and running, finding treasure, comes home hungry, at peace, tired and rosy-cheeked. Whereas when she 'wins' and spends the whole day indoors, she is grumpy and has too much energy in her body, so she has trouble sleeping. So i can see it's good for her too to go out every day. But still, every time i say 'shall we go out?', she screams 'NO!' and we are stuck again.
I hope you guys can help with some suggestions,
thanks in advance,
Véronique
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I've been reading along on this list for some months now, and I am very grateful for all the inspiration it has provided. Mostly, the questions i struggle with tend to be asked and answered just around the time i need them, but not this time. So here comes:
i have a five-year old daughter and a two-year old son. We live in a large city in The Netherlands, in a second-floor appartment (no garden) in a nice but not very green neighbourhood. Luckily though, the beach is a 20-minute bicycle ride away and there is a nice forest/park about the same distance from our house.
And here comes the problem of the moment: my 5-year old is going through a phase in which she just doesn't want to go out of the house. As far as i can tell, in her present-moment world-view, outside is cold/windy/sometimes wet and generally unpleasant. The thing is, i really need to be out and moving for as much of a day as possible, because of a tendency to get depressed (especially when the weather is cold/windy/sometimes wet :)) if i don't get enough fresh air/exercise and contact with the natural world.
I can't really leave without her because she finds it scary to be left behind. I have tried going for a run around our block, which she thought was fine, but it didn't really help me, and that's when i realized i need the trees or the beach, or something else other than concrete to bring me back to my center. I have tried going out when my husband comes home from work but it's dark by then, so the beach is out, and the park is closed. Living as we do on one income, we can't afford a baby-sitter for me to go on a daily walk, and although i can (and do) ask a friend occasionally, it's not feasible to have this as a standing/daily arrangement.
The problem is compounded by the fact that my two-year old would like to spend HIS ENTIRE LIFE out in the woods. He is an outdoorsy type of toddler who can spend hours in the dirt on some wood-trail finding stuff. So it's not only me who is not getting her fix, it's him too.
What's more, the times when my dd does go outside with us, to the woods or the beach, she clearly enjoys herself, spends her time roaming and running, finding treasure, comes home hungry, at peace, tired and rosy-cheeked. Whereas when she 'wins' and spends the whole day indoors, she is grumpy and has too much energy in her body, so she has trouble sleeping. So i can see it's good for her too to go out every day. But still, every time i say 'shall we go out?', she screams 'NO!' and we are stuck again.
I hope you guys can help with some suggestions,
thanks in advance,
Véronique
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
Somthing jumped out for me: Do you not take a picnic or snacks when you go out? It sounds like 40 minutes just to get there and come back maybe your daughter does not like to be so hungry without nay food around.
What about another mother willing to trade child care?
Have you asked specifically what she does not like about going out?
the bike ride? wind? rain?
I don't blame her if she feels cold and wet.
Is there public tranportation to those places instead of a bike ride for the colder, wetter days?
What time does your husband go to work ? Can you do it early in the morning?
GTG!
Alex Polikowsky
http://polykow.blogspot.com/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingmn/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
What about another mother willing to trade child care?
Have you asked specifically what she does not like about going out?
the bike ride? wind? rain?
I don't blame her if she feels cold and wet.
Is there public tranportation to those places instead of a bike ride for the colder, wetter days?
What time does your husband go to work ? Can you do it early in the morning?
GTG!
Alex Polikowsky
http://polykow.blogspot.com/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingmn/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
drcotter
Hi there-
I haven't introduced myself on this list yet: I'm mom to 2 dd's: 6yo & 3 yo, and we live in Oregon. And your life sounded kind of similar to ours, in ways ;)
I don't have any particular insights that someone else hasn't already said, but figured I'd send a virtual wave and let you know you're not alone. My oldest has some very similar sounding issues to your oldest, and sometimes it's easier for me to deal with, and sometimes harder. We're just working our way out of a time when she would have panic/anxiety attacks (my interpretation of them, not an official "medical" one) at just the thought of me being somewhat unavailable. Even if it was a situation I could step out of at anytime to help her, with her right there, just imagining me being potentially unavailable set her off. We adjusted some things, I spent extra time with her, cut back on things, etc. etc. And now she's starting to come out of it, not minding if I go run an errand or two (especially if it's for something she wants ;) ), and today I'm going back to one of the classes I used to do, with her along and knowing I'll stop to help her anytime she needs it.
We go through ups and downs, betters and worses, easiers and harders. And more and less understanding relatives ;) But we've found ways to manage, and eventually things improve, even if it's in small increments.
So you're not alone, and I totally agree that it would be much worse in a school environment. No one's going to make more effort to take good care of your kids, to see who they are and work with that, to be gentle and kind and understanding, than you are.
-Dawn S.
I haven't introduced myself on this list yet: I'm mom to 2 dd's: 6yo & 3 yo, and we live in Oregon. And your life sounded kind of similar to ours, in ways ;)
I don't have any particular insights that someone else hasn't already said, but figured I'd send a virtual wave and let you know you're not alone. My oldest has some very similar sounding issues to your oldest, and sometimes it's easier for me to deal with, and sometimes harder. We're just working our way out of a time when she would have panic/anxiety attacks (my interpretation of them, not an official "medical" one) at just the thought of me being somewhat unavailable. Even if it was a situation I could step out of at anytime to help her, with her right there, just imagining me being potentially unavailable set her off. We adjusted some things, I spent extra time with her, cut back on things, etc. etc. And now she's starting to come out of it, not minding if I go run an errand or two (especially if it's for something she wants ;) ), and today I'm going back to one of the classes I used to do, with her along and knowing I'll stop to help her anytime she needs it.
We go through ups and downs, betters and worses, easiers and harders. And more and less understanding relatives ;) But we've found ways to manage, and eventually things improve, even if it's in small increments.
So you're not alone, and I totally agree that it would be much worse in a school environment. No one's going to make more effort to take good care of your kids, to see who they are and work with that, to be gentle and kind and understanding, than you are.
-Dawn S.
plaidpanties666
--- In [email protected], Véronique Van Gelderen <veronique1973@...> wrote:
Do you have a car? If so, going places in the car can be a win-win, your dd can stay in the heated car (engine running) while you and the little one play together in sight of the car. Another option might be a heavily enclosed stroller - like an all weather jogging/bicycling stroller. Yet another would be to bring a small tent, so she can be out of the weather while on the beach.
Besides being out of the weather, these are also options that allow your dd to have a place retreat to, a "safe place" she can go. She may rarely use it, but having such a place can make a big difference for some kids.
Alex suggested food, also consider bringing toys, books, a portable game system, a portable computer or dvd player. Help your 5yo feel more comfortable out of the home by bringing some of "home" along with you.
At the same time, look for alternative ways to meet your own needs. Get full spectrum light bulbs! Get more houseplants. Get some exercise equipment. None of that has to be costly or new, but those are all things to help you meet some of your needs, at least in part, so that you aren't going bonkers if you can't get out Every day.
Exercise equipment is something to consider for the 2yo, too. Look for big-body toys for inside. A big exercise ball, for example, is something you could both use. Depending on your space, you could look into swings or pull-up bars, a small slide, a sandbox, skates/skateboard, a mini trampoline. Our house is small, so when Mo was little we'd rotate through the big-body toys, since we didn't have room for more than one at a time. It helped keep things "fresh" and interesting, too.
Build some terrariums. Look into getting some worms or ants or fire bellied toads or hermit crabs or something. REALLY find a way to bring a sandbox into your home, too. It doesn't have to be big - a plastic tote will work. You can fill it with sand or dirt or rice... even change it out now and then for variety.
And seriously: houseplants. You can also start a simple container garden inside. It doesn't have to be fancy. Grow some grass! Go through your grains and sprout some and plant them. Think about what else you could plant. Potatoes that are starting to sprout. Onions, maybe. If you don't have a compost bucket, start one just to see what the process looks like.
The idea is to find More options, more ways to meet everyone's needs, not just those of one individual.
---Meredith (Mo 8, Ray 16)
>> And here comes the problem of the moment: my 5-year old is going through a phase in which she just doesn't want to go out of the house. As far as i can tell, in her present-moment world-view, outside is cold/windy/sometimes wet and generally unpleasant.************************
Do you have a car? If so, going places in the car can be a win-win, your dd can stay in the heated car (engine running) while you and the little one play together in sight of the car. Another option might be a heavily enclosed stroller - like an all weather jogging/bicycling stroller. Yet another would be to bring a small tent, so she can be out of the weather while on the beach.
Besides being out of the weather, these are also options that allow your dd to have a place retreat to, a "safe place" she can go. She may rarely use it, but having such a place can make a big difference for some kids.
Alex suggested food, also consider bringing toys, books, a portable game system, a portable computer or dvd player. Help your 5yo feel more comfortable out of the home by bringing some of "home" along with you.
>>The thing is, i really need to be out and moving for as much of a day as possible, because of a tendency to get depressed******************
At the same time, look for alternative ways to meet your own needs. Get full spectrum light bulbs! Get more houseplants. Get some exercise equipment. None of that has to be costly or new, but those are all things to help you meet some of your needs, at least in part, so that you aren't going bonkers if you can't get out Every day.
Exercise equipment is something to consider for the 2yo, too. Look for big-body toys for inside. A big exercise ball, for example, is something you could both use. Depending on your space, you could look into swings or pull-up bars, a small slide, a sandbox, skates/skateboard, a mini trampoline. Our house is small, so when Mo was little we'd rotate through the big-body toys, since we didn't have room for more than one at a time. It helped keep things "fresh" and interesting, too.
>>> The problem is compounded by the fact that my two-year old would like to spend HIS ENTIRE LIFE out in the woods. He is an outdoorsy type of toddler who can spend hours in the dirt on some wood-trail finding stuff. So it's not only me who is not getting her fix, it's him too.******************
Build some terrariums. Look into getting some worms or ants or fire bellied toads or hermit crabs or something. REALLY find a way to bring a sandbox into your home, too. It doesn't have to be big - a plastic tote will work. You can fill it with sand or dirt or rice... even change it out now and then for variety.
And seriously: houseplants. You can also start a simple container garden inside. It doesn't have to be fancy. Grow some grass! Go through your grains and sprout some and plant them. Think about what else you could plant. Potatoes that are starting to sprout. Onions, maybe. If you don't have a compost bucket, start one just to see what the process looks like.
The idea is to find More options, more ways to meet everyone's needs, not just those of one individual.
---Meredith (Mo 8, Ray 16)
Schuyler
________________________________
From: Véronique Van Gelderen veronique1973@...
But still, every time i say 'shall we go out?', she screams 'NO!' and we are stuck again.
--------------
Don't ask "shall we go out?", be more specific. Come up with a day filled with interesting and exciting activities. Find a favorite place to stop for a snack or an ice cream or a toy or something and include that in your day's goals. Maybe meet up with someone who she'd love to see as well. Maybe find cool tools to take to the beach and have them packed to bring along for the day. It won't get her out every day. But it will make going out some days more appealling.
Schuyler
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
From: Véronique Van Gelderen veronique1973@...
But still, every time i say 'shall we go out?', she screams 'NO!' and we are stuck again.
--------------
Don't ask "shall we go out?", be more specific. Come up with a day filled with interesting and exciting activities. Find a favorite place to stop for a snack or an ice cream or a toy or something and include that in your day's goals. Maybe meet up with someone who she'd love to see as well. Maybe find cool tools to take to the beach and have them packed to bring along for the day. It won't get her out every day. But it will make going out some days more appealling.
Schuyler
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Faith Void
>>WHY O WHY is the real world set up so school like?***I wanted to add to Meredith's great reply. There are other ways to help
>
> It isn't. You have her in a Class! You said Guides was no problem? Its a
> whole different format - more social, more hands on. That's not like school.
>
>
> Families aren't like school. Jobs aren't like school. Self employment isn't
> anything like school. University isn't even like school.
>
> Think about how often people complain that schools aren't Preparing kids
> for the world. Its the most common complaint.
>
>
facilitate an interest. Sit down classes are not the only way, typically
they are the easiest to find as most people "understand" that model. Keep
looking for a better fit. Find classes you can do together. If she needs you
right now, be with her. ignore that "every other kid" can *sit down shut up
and learn* (it isn't true btw mine don't learn that way and won't be coerced
into it easily).
When dd has an interest or suggests she wants to explore something find ways
to do so on her time. Or if a class is available and she wants to try ask
lots of questions to the facilitator first, before you even suggest it to
dd. If it isn't a good fit ignore it. Ask to try out one class. Go with her.
If she wants to do it alone stay near by in the car for at least the first
few classes. Look for ways to met her needs instead of wishing it were
different.
Faith
--
http://faithvoid.blogspot.com/
www.bearthmama.com
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Joyce Fetteroll
> Jeez, I am surrounded by very strict school-at-home-ers here whoHomeschooling is self chosen. If it's not working out for the mom,
> have the perfect sit down and shut-up kids sequential type kids who
> PAY ATTENTION
she can bail and put the kids back in school.
If a mother knows her kids don't do well in classes they usually stay
far away from classes! It would be especially true of parents who are
homeschooling because they're pressured to by their church. In those
circles there's a lot of pressure to do it right. They won't be out
in public if their kids can't behave. (Or their kids have been
severely punished to keep them in line.)
So you aren't seeing *all* the kids. You're seeing the ones those
mothers don't mind others seeing. The ones who can't "behave"
themselves are at home. Or in school.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Véronique Van Gelderen
Thanks for all the great suggestions, I am definitely getting more houseplants and the 'take some food along' suggestion was brilliant too, the moment i read it, i had one of those 'yes but of course!' moments and i realized the one thing all our outings have in common is that she starts to complain about being hungry approximately half an hour after leaving home. and so far, i was so impatient to get out, i never remembered to pack a snack.
this past week i have made i a priority to bring stuff she likes and to mention to her that i had it packed before we leave the house, and she's been coming along of her own volition. just like that.
thank you for the magic,
Véronique
this past week i have made i a priority to bring stuff she likes and to mention to her that i had it packed before we leave the house, and she's been coming along of her own volition. just like that.
thank you for the magic,
Véronique
--- On Fri, 11/6/09, plaidpanties666 <meredith@...> wrote:
From: plaidpanties666 <meredith@...>
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: fresh air
To: [email protected]
Date: Friday, November 6, 2009, 11:36 PM
--- In unschoolingbasics@ yahoogroups. com, Véronique Van Gelderen <veronique1973@ ...> wrote:
>> And here comes the problem of the moment: my 5-year old is going through a phase in which she just doesn't want to go out of the house. As far as i can tell, in her present-moment world-view, outside is cold/windy/sometime s wet and generally unpleasant.
************ ********* ***
Do you have a car? If so, going places in the car can be a win-win, your dd can stay in the heated car (engine running) while you and the little one play together in sight of the car. Another option might be a heavily enclosed stroller - like an all weather jogging/bicycling stroller. Yet another would be to bring a small tent, so she can be out of the weather while on the beach.
Besides being out of the weather, these are also options that allow your dd to have a place retreat to, a "safe place" she can go. She may rarely use it, but having such a place can make a big difference for some kids.
Alex suggested food, also consider bringing toys, books, a portable game system, a portable computer or dvd player. Help your 5yo feel more comfortable out of the home by bringing some of "home" along with you.
>>The thing is, i really need to be out and moving for as much of a day as possible, because of a tendency to get depressed
************ ******
At the same time, look for alternative ways to meet your own needs. Get full spectrum light bulbs! Get more houseplants. Get some exercise equipment. None of that has to be costly or new, but those are all things to help you meet some of your needs, at least in part, so that you aren't going bonkers if you can't get out Every day.
Exercise equipment is something to consider for the 2yo, too. Look for big-body toys for inside. A big exercise ball, for example, is something you could both use. Depending on your space, you could look into swings or pull-up bars, a small slide, a sandbox, skates/skateboard, a mini trampoline. Our house is small, so when Mo was little we'd rotate through the big-body toys, since we didn't have room for more than one at a time. It helped keep things "fresh" and interesting, too.
>>> The problem is compounded by the fact that my two-year old would like to spend HIS ENTIRE LIFE out in the woods. He is an outdoorsy type of toddler who can spend hours in the dirt on some wood-trail finding stuff. So it's not only me who is not getting her fix, it's him too.
************ ******
Build some terrariums. Look into getting some worms or ants or fire bellied toads or hermit crabs or something. REALLY find a way to bring a sandbox into your home, too. It doesn't have to be big - a plastic tote will work. You can fill it with sand or dirt or rice... even change it out now and then for variety.
And seriously: houseplants. You can also start a simple container garden inside. It doesn't have to be fancy. Grow some grass! Go through your grains and sprout some and plant them. Think about what else you could plant. Potatoes that are starting to sprout. Onions, maybe. If you don't have a compost bucket, start one just to see what the process looks like.
The idea is to find More options, more ways to meet everyone's needs, not just those of one individual.
---Meredith (Mo 8, Ray 16)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]