Toby

I've been trying to let go of the "evil" of TV watching for a number of years. My 8 year old son is enthralled more than any of my other kids. My 12 year old daughter was into the TV for a while, but she eventually chose to go to school and so she doesn't have much time to watch TV. My 5 year old is extremely active and social, so he only lasts in front of the TV for an hour before he gets involved in something else. If I don't leave the house for grocery shopping or other places I'd like to go, my 8 year old is happy to sit watching videos or playing on the computer almost the whole day. Once he does get off, he will get engrossed in building one of his models.

1)Do other parents have kids like this?

Also, I feel negligent. Not that I sit around on the couch eating bon bons all day (believe me I never sit down), but rather because I can't find many ways that we can connect and both have a good time. The one thing we both like to do is snuggle at night reading, which we don't do as long as I'd like because by the time I can get him to bed I'm too tired to read very long. I think one of our problems is that we have very different personalities. I love running around, being busy with lots of things. He (like my husband) goes at a much slower pace, but I can see that he figures things out for himself. So, the way we spend our unschooling days is by him doing his thing and me doing mine. I always try to talk to him and answer his questions, but he isn't very talkative.

2) Has anybody else had this experience?

I have this vision of unschoolers spending lots of time actively engaged with their children. I know that I can't sit down with my son like a traditional homeschooler and do lessons. At the same time, when I try to engage him with my passions, he is uninterested.

3)Does anybody have some suggestions of things we could do together that we both would enjoy?

The last question might be difficult because you don't know either of us, but maybe with input from everyone a few ideas will be appealing for us.

Thanks

Jenna Robertson

:)
You say you "never sit down" and there in lies your answer. 
 Sit Down, next to your son, while he watches TV.
 
Connect over the shows or games or computer sites he's interested in.
 
My daughters are deschooling and watching Disney shows on Netflix by the hour.  Who would have imagined that I actually enjoy the Jonas Brothers?  (Never thought I'd admit that in public!)
 
I crochet, so I use screen time to work on projects so we are connecting and I'm also taking time to relax and enjoy my own activity at the same time.  We put a computer in the kitchen so they watch while I'm cooking, too.
 
:)
Jenna
 
 

 
 

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

carenkh

I saved this post from Always Learning, because it really touched me,
and I thought it was so sweet and simple. I know you're asking a deeper
question, and I may have more to write about your question - but for
now, think of what "cheese and crackers" your son might enjoy. Think of
ways you can be "present and nice" for him:

You ed: (this was written to the list, but Pam Sorooshian in
particular) wrote:

Stop thinking about changing "for good and not just for days or
moments." That is just another thing to overwhelm you and you don't need
that!

Just change the next interaction you have with the kids.

Stop reading email right now and do something "preventative" -
something that helps build your relationship with them. Fix them a
little tray of cheese and crackers and take it to them, wherever they
are, unasked. Sit down on the floor and play with them. If nothing else,
just go and give each of them a little hug and a kiss and say, "I was
just thinking about how much I love you."

Okay - so that is one good, positive interaction.


Here's the link:

http://www.sandradodd.com/peace/becoming.html

That thing about the cheese and crackers really jumped out at me
then, whenever it was (years ago, I'm thinking) that I first read it.
The simplicity of it, the love and tenderness in the gesture. Such an
ordinary thing, fixing a plate of cheese and crackers, and yet--and
yet--

"Take it to them, wherever they are, unasked." Anticipating a
possible need, showing love with action, not making a big deal or grand
gesture out of it. It's an active kind of love that is thinking about
the other person and putting yourself in his shoes and imagining what
would make that person feel happy and loved.

I don't know why that post gobsmacked me the way it did the first
time I read it, but it made me examine the best relationships in my life
and appreciate the magnitude of the little things people did for me,
like the way my husband always keeps our Brita water dispenser filled
up. I don't even notice it & could easily take it for granted. I'm the
one home all day drinking the water, but I bet I haven't refilled that
thing more than five times in five years--probably times he was out of
town. He keeps it filled up because he loves me. There are things like
that I do for him, and for each of my kids, some things I was doing even
before I read that post and started really thinking about how much love
there can be in a simple quiet act like bringing a plate of snacks to
someone playing a video game. Ever since I read the post, I think of it
all the time, looking at my children, thinking, What kind of cheese and
crackers could I bring them right now? It's figurative--"cheese and
crackers" has become my mental code for looking for nice little things
to do for my kids. Or sometimes if I catch myself starting to be cross
or distracted, I'll think: "where's the cheese and crackers?" It's a
memory-trigger for me, a reminder to be present and nice.

I have a quiet son as well, who's happy and peaceful by himself - but he
really appreciates the kind things I do for him, the little connections
we make through the day. He likes it when I watch the video game he's
playing, or sometimes I'll just site beside him and play with his hair
while he plays World of Warcraft. (Not always - he lets me know if he
wants some space, too!) I bring him warm food, or a little treat. He's
not so much about BIG LOUD doings, he's happy BEing, and being allowed
to BE.

peace,
Caren





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

plaidpanties666

--- In [email protected], "Toby" <philipntoby@...> wrote:
>my 8 year old is happy to sit watching videos or playing on the computer almost the whole day. Once he does get off, he will get engrossed in building one of his models.
>
> 1)Do other parents have kids like this?

Yes!
Your guy is doing more than you realize, because you're lumping watching videos and playing on the computer into one thing. They're not even only two things, they're a bunch of things. Videos of what? What kinds of games? There are genres of video and genres of game just like there are genres of written work. Dickens is not Poe - you get something different from the experience of each. Super Smash Bros is not God of War, so you get something different from the experience of Playing each. That's important. Its important that you learn to see what he's doing in its complexity, so you can appreciate it, and appreciate him more!

>>I think one of our problems is that we have very different personalities. I love running around, being busy with lots of things. He (like my husband) goes at a much slower pace, but I can see that he figures things out for himself. So, the way we spend our unschooling days is by him doing his thing and me doing mine. I always try to talk to him and answer his questions, but he isn't very talkative.
>
> 2) Has anybody else had this experience?

Yes!
As someone else mentioned, it can help if you bring some of your projects into the same space he's in, be more present for him. Beyond that, you can also do some research on the things that interest him so that you have more and better context for your discussions. The more you can "bring" to the conversation, the better you'll connect - I don't mean in the sense of "and, hey, did you know?" You don't need to tell him more things, but "bring" in the sense that the better you understand what he's doing, the more you can connect. Do you play any computer or video games? I found taking the time to learn to play a few, just a few games that I liked, games just for me, the better I understood what my kids were doing in games. There are concepts you don't pick up watching, only playing, and some of those concepts can help you connect.

> 3)Does anybody have some suggestions of things we could do together that we both would enjoy?

Well, first I'm going to be stern and say "you're the adult, meet him where he is". Okay, you got that part? But its also good to look and try to get an idea of what the intersection of you're likes and his likes could be. You like to read together, that's one! Can you listen to some audio books while you're doing different things? Maybe him while he's working on his models and you at other times? Can you read something and watch the movie and talk about that? And get the game if there is one, too. Playing Harry Potter games isn't like watching the movie Or reading the books, for example. What does he make models of? Is there something you can do to intesect with That part of his life?

You can ask him, too. Ask him what he'd like to do with you. My 8yo sometimes comes and tells me what she wants to do with me. The other day she handed me a Spider magazine and showed me a recipe and a craft she wanted to do. The craft involved pumpkins, so while we were out buying a new video game we stopped at a pumpkin patch. She spent more time picking out that pumpkin than she had at the game store... had to look at every single one, pick it up, smell it. It was an utterly charming experience, and I'm not even sure how we're going to do the craft, yet. Sometimes kids have the best ideas of all.

---Meredith (Mo 8, Ray 16)

jlalbums

I have not yet made a decision to unschool, but am considering it. I have noticed a lot of posts in unschooling groups regarding video games. My 9 year old son is addicted to them. I notice that he gets stressed while playing. When he stops a game, he is anxious and starts to pick on his brother. We have a 1 hour screen time rule in our family. It is not a super strict rule. He is allowed extra time on car vacations, or at sleepovers, but we try to stick as close as we can to 1 hour. He often will ask for extra time, or say "I just have to...." My fear is that if we unschool him, that rule would go out the window. I realize that there are some benefits to video games, but there are also some real dangers. We want our kids to be active, we want them to socialize, and although we want to support their imagination, I'm afraid video games are not the best source. Not to mention, the video games can get quite graphic and violent as the kids get older.

I like the suggestion of playing along with your child. And I also like the suggestion of being present while he plays.

If I do unschool him, I would definately also be interested in knowing what other activities unschooled 9 year old boys engage in to fill their day.

Do you try to motivate your children to play sports, or just wait until they ask? Do you encourage other things?

Jane

Joyce Fetteroll

On Oct 7, 2009, at 2:33 PM, jlalbums wrote:

> My 9 year old son is addicted to them.

It will help your relationship to rethink the idea of being addicted
to video games (or TV).

Passion has pretty much the same symptoms. Video games are intensely
involving and interesting. They're huge complex puzzles that are
incredibly involving. Maybe Picasso looked like he was addicted to
painting!
> When he stops a game, he is anxious and starts to pick on his brother.
>

Probably very wound up. What if he were creating beautiful sculptures
and when he took a break he was anxious and picked on his brother?
Would you make him stop sculpting? Or might you find a way to help
him get the tension out?

There will probably be other things in his life that cause him to
tense up and be irritable. If he thinks the only way to deal with the
tension is to avoid the activity -- or worse have someone else *make*
him avoid the activity because he's too weak willed to do it on his
own! -- he will either walk around tense a lot or miss out on things
he enjoys. You have the opportunity to help him find ways to release
the tension. You could say, when he's calm and peaceful, you notice
he gets irritable after playing for a long time and you have some
ideas that will help. (Ask here and people will have some! :-) When
he picks on his brother step in and say you can't let people in the
house be mistreated and focus on what he *can* do instead.

> We have a 1 hour screen time rule in our family. It is not a super
> strict rule. He is allowed extra time on car vacations, or at
> sleepovers, but we try to stick as close as we can to 1 hour. He
> often will ask for extra time, or say "I just have to...."
>

If your husband limited you to 10 minutes of reading a really great
book, how would that affect your behavior? Would you happily stop
after 10 minutes? Would you have loving thoughts toward him because
he cared enough to do what he believed was best for you?

> My fear is that if we unschool him, that rule would go out the window.
>

It's better for unschooling to live by principles rather than rules.
Live kindness and helpfulness and thoughtfulness. Be his partner and
help him explore what fascinates him. If you live by control that's
what he'll learn. Imagine him taking care of you when you're very old
and limiting you to a half hour of TV a day because he thinks that's
best. ;-)

> I realize that there are some benefits to video games, but there
> are also some real dangers.
>

Mack trucks are dangerous. Poison is dangerous.

*Everything* has its good and bad points. When people are reading
they aren't running around. When people are running around they
probably aren't exercising the mathematical areas of the brain.

> We want our kids to be active, we want them to socialize, and
> although we want to support their imagination, I'm afraid video
> games are not the best source.
>

It's very very helpful to let go of what you want your kids to be. Do
make available a variety of opportunities that the kids enjoy or you
think they'll enjoy. (Be aware that you only get so many "Trust mes"
before they don't! So use them wisely.) Pulling them away from what
they love to do what you think is better is disrespectful. The action
says "I don't like who you are. I want you to be more like this."

What if you were very physically active and you overheard your
husband say to someone "I want my wife to be more learned and to take
more care with her cooking." How would you feel? No matter how
motivated you are to want the best for your kids, wanting them to be
other than who they are will feel to them as though you love some
vision of who they could be rather than who they really are.

Rather than pulling him from his video games, add more to your lives.
If you love being active, add fun active things that he'll find hard
to resist. (But do allow him to choose!)

> Not to mention, the video games can get quite graphic and violent
> as the kids get older.
>

If there were any connection between video and TV violence and real
violence, then unschooled children would be more violent than any
other class of children because many of them have no restrictions on
what or how much. If you've ever been to an unschooling conference,
you'd know that's not true. :-)

Do, please, read here:

http://joyfullyrejoycing.com/
http://sandradodd.com/unschooling

Lots of your fears have been addressed many times over the years. The
understanding most people have of kids are extrapolations from kids
who were either controlled or benignly neglected. Neither of those
parenting methods has the same effect on kids as building great
trusting relationships with them through mindful parenting. There are
lots of unschoolers here who have real live teens and grown kids who
have been raised with the freedoms we talk about here. They're
wonderful kids who are a joy to have around. My 18 yo old daughter
grew up with the freedom to explore video games and tv and toys and
books. She's thoughtful and the opposite of violent! This is not just
chance! It's not luck.

> Do you try to motivate your children to play sports, or just wait
> until they ask? Do you encourage other things?
>

How could your husband motivate you to take a cooking class? And a
second language class?

Rather than pulling them towards things you think are good for them,
fill their lives with fun opportunities. It can very much end up
looking the same, but it's less stressful and a lot more fun for
everyone.

Joyce

plaidpanties666

--- In [email protected], "jlalbums" <jlalbums@...> wrote:
>> Do you try to motivate your children to play sports, or just wait until they ask? Do you encourage other things?
*********************

There's something in between "motivate them" and "just wait" actually. By socializing and being present with my kids I know what sorts of things they might want to try, so I can be on the lookout for those things and suggest them. I can create opportunities and see how my kids respond.

That being said, neither of my kids is interested in "sports" in any kind of formal way. My 16yo loves to skateboard and juggle fire - both very physical, but not exactly "sports" in the usual sense. My 8yo loves to jump on the trampoline and climb trees and run around, and incorporates all of those into her dramatic play *and* her thinking process. She likes to move while she's pondering.

Both my kids have free access to video games. My 8yo, Mo, just got a new game on Saturday, so she's played that a Lot this week - hours and hours a day. She's done other things, too: jumped on the trampoline and run around and filled the living room with a paper menagerie. She likes to do anything she does for a good long time, so its normal for her to spend a good chunk of time playing a game if she's in the video game mood. Its normal for her to do the same with writing or paper cutting or programming or building.

I realize that there are some benefits to video games, but there are also some real dangers. We want our kids to be active, we want them to socialize, and although we want to support their imagination, I'm afraid video games are not the best source.
*********************

Both my kids, with free access to video games, are social, active and imaginative. Even the 8yo who plays for hours at a time. The 16yo used to play for hours at a time, but has lost interest in games for the most part.

What shuts kids down and makes them obsessive about games is limiting them. You can't get into a game with only an hour at a time - try it sometime. Try Myst III and see how far you get in an hour (its all problem solving, no fighting). Or if not, think about a really exciting book - do you want to put it down after an hour? Are you crabby if you have to? Games are like that, only moreso bc you get to make decisions for the character. In some ways, it takes more imagination and thoughtfulness to play a video game, even a hack-n-slash, than to read a book. Books spoon feed you, by comparison.

>>video games can get quite graphic and violent as the kids get older.

You know its all pretend, right? That's what my 8yo would say to you ;) It Is pretend. My 16yo's current favorite game is a skating game - he skates, so it would seem silly, but he says he loves the unreality of it. He loves the ludicrous stunts and the fact that he can fall a million times and it doesn't hurt. Its make-believe. He enjoys other games, hack-n-slash games, for the same reason. Is all pretend. He's one of the sweetest, kindest people you could meet. People call and ask if he's available to babysit time and time again, because he's gentle and trustworthy. He likes games with a Teen or Mature rating. Even the skating game has blood with every fall.

My 8yo will tell me if she thinks a game might be too scary for her - she has no reason Not to, you see. Her choices have never been subject to limits and criticism. When we went to buy a new game I must have offered a dozen that she turned down as "too scary" or "too much fighting". She knows her limits and is capable of articulating them.

The goal of unschooling, wrt things like games and tv, is to empower kids to know what they like, what they really want. Are they stuck in a rut and want something new? Are they in over their heads and need some support? Is this game not really what they wanted after all? When kids are empowered to know their own minds, they can say No to things like violence if it bothers them. Kids with limits will subject themselves to violence if its the only way to get a limited commodity. Its limits that teach kids to passively accept things they don't want, things that trouble them, things that are dangerous and bad for them.

---Meredith (Mo 8, Ray 16)

Paul & Camille

We are similar to Jenna. I have a carefully positioned mirror so I can see the tv from the kitchen when getting dinner, so if ds starts talking about something or says Mum look at this he knows I can see it, and we can chat at the same time - small house can you tell :) So in essence I know what hes talking about when hes talking about characters in a program, and he chats about them and other things all the time because its a shared interest. And I dont like everything he watches and thats okay too.

When the girls were young and totally into Pokemon I use to watch it with them - I knew all 150 pokemon names and had favourties etc just like they did - we had a real connection there and it was really great fun for me also. You will be surprised at the things you find interesting once you give them a go :)

Camille

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

plaidpanties666

--- In [email protected], Joyce Fetteroll <jfetteroll@...> wrote:
>> If there were any connection between video and TV violence and real
> violence, then unschooled children would be more violent than any
> other class of children because many of them have no restrictions on
> what or how much. If you've ever been to an unschooling conference,
> you'd know that's not true. :-)

This spring I attended an unschooling campout that was packed with kids (naturally) and the main event in the 6-12yo range was Nerf Wars. Which was far less violent than the shoot-em-ups I've seen non-unschooling kids play. There was a lot of posturing and speech-making. I can still vividly recal kids yelling things like "We do not recognize the legitimacy of your organization!" There was some shooting, of course, and a few dramatic death scenes, but a surprising amount of oration.

Most of those kids had at least a portable game system with them at the campout, some brought whole game systems, but they were out running around together all day long.

---Meredith (Mo 8, Ray 16)

AHMAD MALLAH

Very well expressed, thank you very much for this information.  It has been very useful for me too. I had concerns about my 11 yo son expending too much time at his laptop. I have little experience with unschooling, we started homeschooling last year (I put together our own curriculum) and it was disappointing, he'd get frustrated just as he was at public school. Just now, I'm just starting to understand more about unschooling.
Thank you very much,
Amelia

--- On Wed, 10/7/09, Joyce Fetteroll <jfetteroll@...> wrote:

From: Joyce Fetteroll <jfetteroll@...>
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Re: What to do besides watch TV
To: [email protected]
Date: Wednesday, October 7, 2009, 5:32 PM






 







On Oct 7, 2009, at 2:33 PM, jlalbums wrote:



> My 9 year old son is addicted to them.



It will help your relationship to rethink the idea of being addicted

to video games (or TV).



Passion has pretty much the same symptoms. Video games are intensely

involving and interesting. They're huge complex puzzles that are

incredibly involving. Maybe Picasso looked like he was addicted to

painting!

> When he stops a game, he is anxious and starts to pick on his brother.

>



Probably very wound up. What if he were creating beautiful sculptures

and when he took a break he was anxious and picked on his brother?

Would you make him stop sculpting? Or might you find a way to help

him get the tension out?



There will probably be other things in his life that cause him to

tense up and be irritable. If he thinks the only way to deal with the

tension is to avoid the activity -- or worse have someone else *make*

him avoid the activity because he's too weak willed to do it on his

own! -- he will either walk around tense a lot or miss out on things

he enjoys. You have the opportunity to help him find ways to release

the tension. You could say, when he's calm and peaceful, you notice

he gets irritable after playing for a long time and you have some

ideas that will help. (Ask here and people will have some! :-) When

he picks on his brother step in and say you can't let people in the

house be mistreated and focus on what he *can* do instead.



> We have a 1 hour screen time rule in our family. It is not a super

> strict rule. He is allowed extra time on car vacations, or at

> sleepovers, but we try to stick as close as we can to 1 hour. He

> often will ask for extra time, or say "I just have to...."

>



If your husband limited you to 10 minutes of reading a really great

book, how would that affect your behavior? Would you happily stop

after 10 minutes? Would you have loving thoughts toward him because

he cared enough to do what he believed was best for you?



> My fear is that if we unschool him, that rule would go out the window.

>



It's better for unschooling to live by principles rather than rules.

Live kindness and helpfulness and thoughtfulness. Be his partner and

help him explore what fascinates him. If you live by control that's

what he'll learn. Imagine him taking care of you when you're very old

and limiting you to a half hour of TV a day because he thinks that's

best. ;-)



> I realize that there are some benefits to video games, but there

> are also some real dangers.

>



Mack trucks are dangerous. Poison is dangerous.



*Everything* has its good and bad points. When people are reading

they aren't running around. When people are running around they

probably aren't exercising the mathematical areas of the brain.



> We want our kids to be active, we want them to socialize, and

> although we want to support their imagination, I'm afraid video

> games are not the best source.

>



It's very very helpful to let go of what you want your kids to be. Do

make available a variety of opportunities that the kids enjoy or you

think they'll enjoy. (Be aware that you only get so many "Trust mes"

before they don't! So use them wisely.) Pulling them away from what

they love to do what you think is better is disrespectful. The action

says "I don't like who you are. I want you to be more like this."



What if you were very physically active and you overheard your

husband say to someone "I want my wife to be more learned and to take

more care with her cooking." How would you feel? No matter how

motivated you are to want the best for your kids, wanting them to be

other than who they are will feel to them as though you love some

vision of who they could be rather than who they really are.



Rather than pulling him from his video games, add more to your lives.

If you love being active, add fun active things that he'll find hard

to resist. (But do allow him to choose!)



> Not to mention, the video games can get quite graphic and violent

> as the kids get older.

>



If there were any connection between video and TV violence and real

violence, then unschooled children would be more violent than any

other class of children because many of them have no restrictions on

what or how much. If you've ever been to an unschooling conference,

you'd know that's not true. :-)



Do, please, read here:



http://joyfullyrejo ycing.com/

http://sandradodd. com/unschooling



Lots of your fears have been addressed many times over the years. The

understanding most people have of kids are extrapolations from kids

who were either controlled or benignly neglected. Neither of those

parenting methods has the same effect on kids as building great

trusting relationships with them through mindful parenting. There are

lots of unschoolers here who have real live teens and grown kids who

have been raised with the freedoms we talk about here. They're

wonderful kids who are a joy to have around. My 18 yo old daughter

grew up with the freedom to explore video games and tv and toys and

books. She's thoughtful and the opposite of violent! This is not just

chance! It's not luck.



> Do you try to motivate your children to play sports, or just wait

> until they ask? Do you encourage other things?

>



How could your husband motivate you to take a cooking class? And a

second language class?



Rather than pulling them towards things you think are good for them,

fill their lives with fun opportunities. It can very much end up

looking the same, but it's less stressful and a lot more fun for

everyone.



Joyce































[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

E. Simon

I don't know that what we do is truly unschooling but it isn't following a specific curriculum.
I consider it 'eclectic' but it could be seen as 'erratic' ;-)
I do record the time and activity in a spreadsheet as we are required to have a certain number of hours per year.
We do field trips (I work but have a flex schedule).
On our rough days *he has Asperger's/bi-polar* we take it easy.
My son love tv and video games so I bought a few with education aspects.
1.. Descartes Cove (through homeschool buyer coop)- this is a math game with progressive complexity. Good way to reinforce learned skills.
2.. Brain Quest (5/6th grade)
3.. Spore- pretty interesting way to see lifespan, cause result effect. I found some guides online for lesson plans
a.. I have a reading rule- he has to read for 30 min (was 20 and before that 10) but he can read anything he wants. Comic books/graphic novels included. Then we talk about what he read.
b.. He has to write everyday (we have a non-online blog for him) and it can be about anything. I prefer the computer for this as he does have issues with writing (as do I).
c.. We work on new math concepts every week and I use everyday activities for math
d.. Art is never an issue and he creates comics (his own or favorites) and we use legos a lot.
e.. We use Discovery Channel/history channel for Science and History. I have Discovery Education streaming now as well - we love Bill Nye and Liberty Kids
f.. I record Wishbone and he watches this as well- we have a lot of Wishbone books.
g.. Netflix is a great source for streaming videos (a lot of history/science/historical movies/etc..)
There is more but I am trying to cover the core areas in different ways.
He has to finish this core before playing a more favorite game or tv.
I am now finding this child who was really hating learning (his words while in school)
picking up books on his own, creating stories on his own and watching science shows as a preferred option.

My choices may not be that of others but I see my son's joy of learning has returned and his self esteem is back!!

Elizabeth


"You're not going mad. I can see them, too.
You are just as sane as I am."
-Luna discussing Thestrals with Harry Potter[src]
" I suppose it is because nearly all children go to school nowadays and have things arranged for them that they seem so forlornly unable to produce their own ideas. "
--Agatha Christie




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

plaidpanties666

--- In [email protected], "E. Simon" <elizabeth.simon@...> wrote:
>
> I don't know that what we do is truly unschooling but it isn't following a specific curriculum.
> I consider it 'eclectic'

What you describe is often considered "eclectic homeschooling". While some people might call that "unschooling" its not radical unschooling (whole life unschooling), which is what this list is about. I'm going to try to highlight a few key differences, unschooling discussion list style, so beware!

> My son love tv and video games so I bought a few with education aspects.

Its useful to think about the difference between "learning" and "education". Radical unschooling is not a means of education. It starts with the assumption that learning is utterly natural, and that education very often can get in the way of learning. People learn when they're happy, they learn a lot about things they enjoy. So unschooling focusses on creating an atmosphere of joyfulness, knowing that learning is an inevitable result of that.

> a.. I have a reading rule- he has to read for 30 min

Why do you need a rule for that? Does he not enjoy reading? Making him read won't lead him to enjoy it, won't make him want to do it. You want to make him Want to read? Forbid it.

> c.. We work on new math concepts every week and I use everyday activities for math

Its a good starting place, but it still narrows math down to certain things and times. Math is everywhere, and kids pick up math concepts from alllll sorts of places, and its the concepts that are important.

> I am now finding this child who was really hating learning (his words while in school)
> picking up books on his own, creating stories on his own and watching science shows as a preferred option.

That's wonderful! It may seem odd to even think about going further, stepping away from "core subjects" entirely, but really, life isn't divided into subjects. Its not Necessary to divide kids' lives into subjects for them to learn what they need to know. Its not even helpful to do so - if anything, it gets in the way of kids learning about life. Edcuation (for kids) is like a practice life, one that doesn't look much like the real thing.

---Meredith (Mo 8, Ray 16)

E. Simon

I agree and *mostly* understand those key points.

This is our first year of 'homeschooling' and I have been too afraid to go 'unschool' but
have mostly lurked here to try to figure things out.
Heck- I didn't know anyone
who was or did homeschool before I started. It was a decision made based on my son's downward spiral.

The rule with reading is one I am now willing to let go of as my son has lost his
fear of failing in reading. He has started to enjoy it which is really what I wanted.
Of courser he may have gotten there sooner if I did not have the rule. It was very
different than what he had at school and he would 'test' me to see if I really meant 'anything' :-) .
I did. I think he tried ready the back of dvds one day- which was fine.
baby steps for me... still learning.
thank you!

Elizabeth

----- Original Message -----
From: plaidpanties666
To: [email protected]
Sent: Thursday, October 08, 2009 5:51 PM
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: What to do besides watch TV


--- In [email protected], "E. Simon" <elizabeth.simon@...> wrote:
>
> I don't know that what we do is truly unschooling but it isn't following a specific curriculum.
> I consider it 'eclectic'

What you describe is often considered "eclectic homeschooling". While some people might call that "unschooling" its not radical unschooling (whole life unschooling), which is what this list is about. I'm going to try to highlight a few key differences, unschooling discussion list style, so beware!

> My son love tv and video games so I bought a few with education aspects.

Its useful to think about the difference between "learning" and "education". Radical unschooling is not a means of education. It starts with the assumption that learning is utterly natural, and that education very often can get in the way of learning. People learn when they're happy, they learn a lot about things they enjoy. So unschooling focusses on creating an atmosphere of joyfulness, knowing that learning is an inevitable result of that.

> a.. I have a reading rule- he has to read for 30 min

Why do you need a rule for that? Does he not enjoy reading? Making him read won't lead him to enjoy it, won't make him want to do it. You want to make him Want to read? Forbid it.

> c.. We work on new math concepts every week and I use everyday activities for math

Its a good starting place, but it still narrows math down to certain things and times. Math is everywhere, and kids pick up math concepts from alllll sorts of places, and its the concepts that are important.

> I am now finding this child who was really hating learning (his words while in school)
> picking up books on his own, creating stories on his own and watching science shows as a preferred option.

That's wonderful! It may seem odd to even think about going further, stepping away from "core subjects" entirely, but really, life isn't divided into subjects. Its not Necessary to divide kids' lives into subjects for them to learn what they need to know. Its not even helpful to do so - if anything, it gets in the way of kids learning about life. Edcuation (for kids) is like a practice life, one that doesn't look much like the real thing.

---Meredith (Mo 8, Ray 16)





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

mizelenius

My now 4 y.o. almost always only wanted to watch TV since she was about 2. However, that was right around the time her little sister was born, so I felt like I was in survival mode and it was OK.

A few months ago, she was having a lot of trouble sleeping. We tried various things to help her. The only option that would have helped was her sleeping with us in our bed, and that didn't work, since between our 2 yo and getting ready for a newborn, there wasn't room in our queen for more people. (She didn't want to sleep IN our room, either-- just with us, and we couldn't always sleep with her because her sister slept with her most of the time, too.)

I had read something about TV giving children nightmares so I suggested to her that maybe that was why . . .and SHE decided not to watch TV anymore.

For a few weeks, it did seem to make a difference. She slept better than before. But now, it's back to the same problems with sleeping (if only we had room for a king bed!). Our days aren't even really different, believe it or not. I don't seem them being "better" without TV. I thought DD might get interested in new things, that she would find more things to engage her . . .nope.

So, what I am saying that just turning off the TV probably isn't going to be any magic bullet. Look at what you are more concerned about-- like the connection with your son. As some have suggested, sit down WITH him and watch TV. He may not want to chat, but for some people, talking doesn't = getting closer . . .some people feel closer to people simply when they see that (1) their interests are respected and (2) that their interests are shared (as in, you watching with him).

The only benefit I see with the TV being off is that we just started family movie night. We ALL sit and watch together (as opposed to someone sitting alone and watching, which is what used to happen). They get so much more excited now since it's a once-a-week thing.

-Elena

mizelenius

Thank you for posting this. I will have to keep the "cheese and crackers" mantra going in my head-- for everyone.

-Elena

--- In [email protected], "carenkh" <carenkh@...> wrote:
>
>
> I saved this post from Always Learning, because it really touched me,
> and I thought it was so sweet and simple. I know you're asking a deeper
> question, and I may have more to write about your question - but for
> now, think of what "cheese and crackers" your son might enjoy. Think of
> ways you can be "present and nice" for him:

Camille Morling

Im a bit late here Im sure, computer problems; but from a Mum who had a concern about letting my son go for it on the computer games etc and reading what the ladies here had to say - decided to get over myself and let him go. Well it really was amazing. When I was worrying about how much time he was playing he was always trying to play. When I let him play whenever he wanted and stop stressing about it, he played and played for a couple of weeks (and of course when he gets a new game) and then it was not as important to him.

Same with foods he had, now he gets them whenever he likes - and its not a big deal. He has stopped trying to get things that have limits on them, because there arent the limits so he sees them as just something else to do or eat or whatever. Ive seen that it provides alot more balance in his life and Im grateful that I listened and stopped my hangups from being passed on :)

Also I have received and devoured Rues book and it is brilliant, thanks for the recommend :)

Camille
Mum to Mason 5 1/2 who has never been to school

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Toby Rosenberg

I am still trying to catch up on all the responses to my post about TV. What I've realized is that most of my concerns are a reflection of me. I'm going to rant a little here and I'd love to have some input.
 
I've realized that I don't like TV very much. I think it's because my father watched so much of it when we were kids and it kept him from being with us. Now I see the same thing in the opposite way happening with my kids. They watch TV instead of doing other things with me.  So somehow I have to make peace with my past and this will not bother me so much anymore.
 
I am trying to spend time with the kids while they watch TV. A long time ago, I decided I didn't want a household where a TV was always blaring. So we've always had a TV in the basement for videos. So now, if I'm going to actually spend time with them at the TV, I have to to do it in the basement. I fold laundry down there with them and that's been great and I'm going to really clean out the basement.  However, one of my favorite things is food preparation. I've started to bring down carrots to peel in the basement, so I can be with them. There really isn't a good place to set up the TV near the kitchen (there will be in the next house). On the one hand, I want to be near my kids and on the other hand, the noise of the TV constantly going bugs me. Is the answer that I should get over it? Sometimes, when I try to just get over it and give in, I feel resentful.
 
I liked the "cheese and crackers" response. I am trying to do more nice things for my kids. I do see improvement in our relationship. I think this is a hard thing for me. Maybe because my parents didn't ever do that for me. I nursed my children for many years and slept with them for many years. But now I think to myself why should I prepare them an evening snack when a: they can do it themselves b: I've already served dinner c: I've cleaned everything up by myself with no help (notice the resentment) d: I don't feel like it, I just want to lay down and read my book.  At these time I realize that I should do it anyway. Or should I? Why was I so willing to nurse for so long but now I can't do this? Am I burned out?
 
My husband does not agree with radical unschooling and so he has not been supportive of my son watching large amounts of TV. This son also has mild CP.. According to his physical therapist, he needs to be active. My husband is worried about this too. However, my dh is not active himself. I'm a very active person, but my son doesn't want to join me. I've noticed that when my son wants to move, he can be very active. When I let him be, he gets some activity, just not on my schedule. So, even though I see that my son is getting some activity, when I see my husband panicking, I begin to question myself.
 
Comments are appreciated.
 
Thanks
Toby
 
 


--- On Sat, 10/10/09, BRIAN POLIKOWSKY <polykowholsteins@...> wrote:


From: BRIAN POLIKOWSKY <polykowholsteins@...>
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Re: What to do besides watch TV
To: [email protected]
Date: Saturday, October 10, 2009, 9:30 PM


 



THat is great Camille!
 
Alex Polikowsky
http://polykow. blogspot. com/

http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/unschoolin gmn/

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
















[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

plaidpanties666

--- In [email protected], Toby Rosenberg <philipntoby@...> wrote:
>On the one hand, I want to be near my kids and on the other hand, the noise of the TV constantly going bugs me. Is the answer that I should get over it? Sometimes, when I try to just get over it and give in, I feel resentful.
**************************

Are there shows that are easier for you to be around than others? There are a couple shows that grate on my nerves more than others - the Eds really bug me, for instance, both the show and the game. Not just the sounds but the animation is more... jittery or something. I don't know. But I try to stay farther from the tv when that's on, and out of the room as much as possible. Other shows I enjoy, too, no problem. Certain shows I had to sort of "ease" into, as it were, watching bits and pieces and paying more attention to my kid than the screen. It took me awhile to like Spongebob, for instance, although now its one of my favorites.

Thinking "just get over it" would make Me resentful too! Instead, when I run up against something that bugs me I try to take the time to accept and really Feel whatever it is I'm feeling. Once I actually take that time, rather than shoving those feelings aside to "just get over them" I find its actually easier to tell if the irritation is coming from a physical source or something deeper, some other emotional issue. It its physical I can look for physical solutions - turn the volume down, move away from the tv a little more, or out of the direct line from the speakers. Sometimes I'm a little more physically sensitive due to hormones than at other times, so I can notice that, and do things like make sure I eat and get enough vitamins so I'm not operating on low resources.

>>I think to myself why should I prepare them an evening snack when a: they can do it themselves b: I've already served dinner c: I've cleaned everything up by myself with no help (notice the resentment) d: I don't feel like it, I just want to lay down and read my book. At these time I realize that I should do it anyway. Or should I?
************************

Take "should" out of the equation. You have the opportunity to be a little kinder, a little more giving. You get to be the thoughful one, the one who does nice things for others.

If its a matter of being tired at the end of the day, plan on making that snack earlier, maybe when you're doing the dinner prep or maybe prep a bunch of snacks in the morning - whatever works best with your natural rhythms. I'm Not a night person, so when my kids weren't really able to get their own snacks at night, I'd be sure to get them ready early in the day. That way Zombie Mama didn't really have to think much. It left me the energy to be nice when I could barely focus my eyes - that's important too!

---Meredith (Mo 8, Ray 16)

Toby Rosenberg

Thanks for all these tips. I am definitely trying these ideas. I guess I feel delinquent as a mom when he is watching so many hours at a time. He has been doing this for a while. I think some people seem to watch more TV than others and I think he happens to be one of them. The main time he stops is if we leave the house for the day. This only happens if my other kids are around and insist on going out. But when it's  my 8 year old and my 2 year old and he doesn't want to go anywhere, I try to respect his desire to stay home.
 
 
Here's my bedtime dilemma
 
Of my 4 kids,  my 11 year old and 5 year old have chosen to go to school. (My husband does not agree with unschooling) So, tonight while my husband is gone at a business dinner, I try to put the 5 year old to bed, so he can wake up on time for the morning. Before he every went to school, I would lay with him so he could fall asleep, but this usually happened at 10:00 when I was going to bed, or if it was earlier he fell asleep very quickly because he was tired. So now when I try to put him in bed at 8:00 and he isn't tired, he won't go to bed. I can lay with him for 10 minutes or so in addition to the bookreading and teethbrushing, but then I want to get up and do other things. Also, my other kids also want my attention snuggling and for some reason they all want me separately. I keep thinking to myself, why can't they enjoy me at different times of the day? Why only at night? Why can't they all snuggle me together? None of these work. Tonight, I was
especially frustrated because I realized that  I am helping my son and my husband who are into the school thing by puttng my son to bed, while I don't care  if he stays up late and is late for school the next day (It's kindergarten!).
 
I realize now the idea I have in my head. I believe that if someone wants something, I am willing to help them if I see effort on their part. I am not willing to take the entire burden on myself. In this case, if my son wants to go to school, he has to be willing to try to fall asleep on his own, if he hasn't fallen asleep after I have snuggled with him for 10 minutes, I even told him that I would check back up on him every 10 minutes or so to see how he is doing. What is wrong with this thinking?
 
I know this is also an issue between my husband and me, because my son wouldn't be in school if not for my husband.
 
The underlying feeling I seem to have is resentment, frustration about having to do something I do not want to do at all. I'm trying to figure out why..
 
Here's another question? In general, I don't force my kids to do anything, so aren't I allowed to say no to things that I don't feel like doing?
 
Thanks for any feedback.
 
Toby
 
 
An aside: I don't get on the computer but once a day or so for a few minutes. I realize this is because we are 6 people with one computer and the kids get it before me. I thought I would model doing other stuff with my life without being on the computer and TV so much. My outdated ideas about not having too much technology in the house needs to be put aside so we can get at least another in the house. I see that I was wrong. I will still do other things, but it is impractical for us to live with only one when the computern has so many purposes: videos, video games, recipes, e-mail,  information, maps, weather to name a few.

--- On Wed, 10/14/09, plaidpanties666 <meredith@...> wrote:


From: plaidpanties666 <meredith@...>
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: What to do besides watch TV
To: [email protected]
Date: Wednesday, October 14, 2009, 7:30 PM


 



--- In unschoolingbasics@ yahoogroups. com, Toby Rosenberg <philipntoby@ ....> wrote:
>On the one hand, I want to be near my kids and on the other hand, the noise of the TV constantly going bugs me. Is the answer that I should get over it? Sometimes, when I try to just get over it and give in, I feel resentful..
************ ********* *****

Are there shows that are easier for you to be around than others? There are a couple shows that grate on my nerves more than others - the Eds really bug me, for instance, both the show and the game. Not just the sounds but the animation is more... jittery or something. I don't know. But I try to stay farther from the tv when that's on, and out of the room as much as possible. Other shows I enjoy, too, no problem. Certain shows I had to sort of "ease" into, as it were, watching bits and pieces and paying more attention to my kid than the screen. It took me awhile to like Spongebob, for instance, although now its one of my favorites.

Thinking "just get over it" would make Me resentful too! Instead, when I run up against something that bugs me I try to take the time to accept and really Feel whatever it is I'm feeling. Once I actually take that time, rather than shoving those feelings aside to "just get over them" I find its actually easier to tell if the irritation is coming from a physical source or something deeper, some other emotional issue. It its physical I can look for physical solutions - turn the volume down, move away from the tv a little more, or out of the direct line from the speakers. Sometimes I'm a little more physically sensitive due to hormones than at other times, so I can notice that, and do things like make sure I eat and get enough vitamins so I'm not operating on low resources.

>>I think to myself why should I prepare them an evening snack when a: they can do it themselves b: I've already served dinner c: I've cleaned everything up by myself with no help (notice the resentment) d: I don't feel like it, I just want to lay down and read my book. At these time I realize that I should do it anyway. Or should I?
************ ********* ***

Take "should" out of the equation. You have the opportunity to be a little kinder, a little more giving. You get to be the thoughful one, the one who does nice things for others.

If its a matter of being tired at the end of the day, plan on making that snack earlier, maybe when you're doing the dinner prep or maybe prep a bunch of snacks in the morning - whatever works best with your natural rhythms. I'm Not a night person, so when my kids weren't really able to get their own snacks at night, I'd be sure to get them ready early in the day. That way Zombie Mama didn't really have to think much. It left me the energy to be nice when I could barely focus my eyes - that's important too!

---Meredith (Mo 8, Ray 16)
















[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

Read your book. Don't be miserable.

They will get their own snack. It may not be what you would have made and they may not clean up the way you would have.

Don't sit and watch TV you don't want to watch. Don't expect others to watch something they aren't interested in.

Be available but don't be a martyr.

My way, anyway. :)

Nance



--- In [email protected], "plaidpanties666" <meredith@...> wrote:
>
> --- In [email protected], Toby Rosenberg <philipntoby@> wrote:
> >On the one hand, I want to be near my kids and on the other hand, the noise of the TV constantly going bugs me. Is the answer that I should get over it? Sometimes, when I try to just get over it and give in, I feel resentful.

plaidpanties666

--- In [email protected], "marbleface@..." <marbleface@...> wrote:
>
> Read your book. Don't be miserable.
>
> They will get their own snack. It may not be what you would have made and they may not clean up the way you would have.
****************

Just to clarify a bit, the "cheese and crackers" suggestion was originally intended to address the issue of someone not feeling well enough connected to her kid while he's watching tv. Bringing food can serve a couple of purposes in that regard - its a sweet thing to do, *and* its proactive, helps a kid who may get too wrapped up in what he's doing to remember to eat.

Forgetting to eat is something my 8yo still does - actually, its something my partner does, too, so I have no expectation that she'll grow out of it! Since I like both of them a whole lot better when they're well fed, I make an effort to bring them both food when I notice them being very focused on something. Its a way of helping meet their needs, and taking care of my own, too. *I* feel better when my loved ones are nice to me, after all. Its proactive self-care in that sense.

We talk a lot about taking care of kids needs proactively whenever possible, I think its worth mentioning that the same principle applies to our own needs, too. Whenever possible its good to do some self-care Before you're snarling and resentful. With practice, I've found that I end up with more energy to be kind and thoughtful as a result - a happy spiral of win-wins, rather than the dreaded downward spirals where mom's cranky so the kids are cranky so mom's at her wits end. It takes more effort, initially, just to change the direction of the flow, as it were, but in the longer term, its really easier to be kind and proactive because there's less overall stress and unhappiness.

---Meredith (Mo 8, Ray 16)

plaidpanties666

--- In [email protected], Toby Rosenberg <philipntoby@...> wrote:
>> I realize now the idea I have in my head. I believe that if someone wants something, I am willing to help them if I see effort on their part. I am not willing to take the entire burden on myself. In this case, if my son wants to go to school, he has to be willing to try to fall asleep on his own, if he hasn't fallen asleep after I have snuggled with him for 10 minutes, I even told him that I would check back up on him every 10 minutes or so to see how he is doing. What is wrong with this thinking?
************************

What's wrong is the assumption that a 5yo is capable of falling asleep on his own, or capable of even knowing how to try. Falling asleep is something that many people, especially children, don't have the ability to control. He could be trying his very Hardest to fall asleep - and simply be unable to do so.

That doesn't mean the only option is you lying there with him, though, if it takes him a long time - how long are we talking about, anyway? An hour? That seems too long. Lying in bed "trying to sleep" for too long isn't a very good habit to be in. Better to get up, in that case. But fifteen or twenty minutes isn't too long for you to snuggle with your son while he drifts off to sleep, if he simply needs a longer transition. If its somewhere in between twenty minutes and an hour, then there's no reason not to make your suggestion to your son and see what he says. But if he doesn't like the idea, then its time to look for another option. If he's not sleeping anyway, the bedtime isn't doing what its supposed to do - making sure he gets a certain amount of sleep.

> The underlying feeling I seem to have is resentment, frustration about having to do something I do not want to do at all. I'm trying to figure out why..
***********************

Doing something you don't want to do at all is a good reason to feel resentment if you ask me! With parenting issues, it can help to look for reasons to want to do things, to put yourself in the position of actively choosing to do things, rather than feeling shoved around by circumstances. The school issue is a hard one, though. Do your kids want to go? Can you just keep the 5yo home on days he oversleeps?

If they really doe want to go and enjoy being there, then you have the option of embracing this decision and helping them with kindness and generosity. Make it about them and something they love, the same way you would if any of your kids had some other love or interest that you didn't care for. Don't penalize your kids for their decisions! That pushes them away. Embrace their decisions so that you can continue to be an important part in their lives.

> Here's another question? In general, I don't force my kids to do anything, so aren't I allowed to say no to things that I don't feel like doing?
**********************

You're allowed to do anything within the law, including hitting your kids! Unschooling isn't about allowing or disallowing, its about the choices you make every day. You have the option of choosing to be kind and thoughtful. You have the option of putting a better spin on things you're not happy about doing - find a way to be joyful or appreciative or full of love when you do them.

If you've fallen into a habit of resenting the time you spend with/on your kids, then breaking that habit is going to be really important. Unschooling doesn't work well in an atmosphere of resentment. So make an effort Right Now! to think of something about each or your children that brings you joy. What's wonderful about each of your kids? Find ways to remind yourself of that every day. Make an active effort to think kind and loving thoughts, about your kids, your husband, and yourself, too. What's wonderful about you?

In another post I mentioned proactive self-care. It can help, in a busy life, to do little things for yourself. Have special things or rituals just for your own pleasure. If reading is something you do for pleasure, then remind yourself of that when you pause to read, even if its only for a moment. Don't dwell on the next moment when you're running to the call of another child, savor the moment you have.

Savoring the moment was something I learned to do when Mo was 2 and I never seemed to have much time to myself. So I learned to savor those few moments at a time - and then turn right around and savor my kids during those other moments. My personal mantra became "savor it, because they'll never be this age again." Popular culture tells us its either us Or the kids, but you can savor both - taking care of yourself And taking care of your family.

---Meredith (Mo 8, Ray 16)

Toby Rosenberg

I thought about what you said and my husband has been trying to tell me similar things. Maybe I am rationalizing or making excuses, so tell me if I am..
 
My son wanted to go to school last year with his big brother. We did not want to pay for them to go to this school for preschool, so we sent him to the public school where we got a discount because he was in an integrated special needs class. The preschool was 2 and 1/2 hours 4 days a week. He liked it at first. Then it seemed like I was pushing him to go even though I didn't even care about it. When I realized this, I told him he didn't have to go anymore if he didn't like it. So he stopped going.
This year he decided he wanted to go again because his cousin is going and his Dad wanted him to have Math and Reading at him which wasn't happening at home. I didn't want him to go because I think he likes the idea but he doesn't realize that he is commiting to 5 days a week, 8.5 hours a day. I wanted him to wait another year when he is at least in 1st grade. I miss him.
So if he wants to go, that's fine. Except,it does impact the rest of us. Every morning his 2 year old sister gets woken up when I leave the bed. And, many times his 8 year old brother gets woken up too. We all lose out getting out of bed when we want to because he wants me in the morning. Before school, we all just got up when we wanted to. At night, I have this pressure of putting him to bed. He is already feeling nervous when his teachers ask him why he is late to school, so he wants me to put him to bed and wake him early. The bedtime isn't working because the 2 year old wants me when I try to put him to bed and I end up with one of the 2 of them screaming. Before school started, I could tell him to go play while I took care of her because it didn't matter if he went to bed late. Honestly, this didn't always work, but it's better than it is now. And no, I don't have help getting them to bed. Bringing in someone else doesn't help because they all want
me at night. My husband says it's my fault because I chose to live this way, by doing the family bed and extended nursing. I love having kids. I just don't know how to juggle them all at night. Sometimes even in the day it's hard, but night time is the worst because everyone wants me including my husband. And, they all want their special alone time. When there is no pressure of school or wake up time, I can be there for everyone at night and sleep in. 
 
Toby 

--- On Thu, 10/15/09, plaidpanties666 <meredith@...> wrote:


From: plaidpanties666 <meredith@...>
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: Bedtime
To: [email protected]
Date: Thursday, October 15, 2009, 6:49 PM


 



--- In unschoolingbasics@ yahoogroups. com, Toby Rosenberg <philipntoby@ ....> wrote:
>> I realize now the idea I have in my head. I believe that if someone wants something, I am willing to help them if I see effort on their part. I am not willing to take the entire burden on myself. In this case, if my son wants to go to school, he has to be willing to try to fall asleep on his own, if he hasn't fallen asleep after I have snuggled with him for 10 minutes, I even told him that I would check back up on him every 10 minutes or so to see how he is doing. What is wrong with this thinking?
************ ********* ***

What's wrong is the assumption that a 5yo is capable of falling asleep on his own, or capable of even knowing how to try. Falling asleep is something that many people, especially children, don't have the ability to control. He could be trying his very Hardest to fall asleep - and simply be unable to do so.

That doesn't mean the only option is you lying there with him, though, if it takes him a long time - how long are we talking about, anyway? An hour? That seems too long. Lying in bed "trying to sleep" for too long isn't a very good habit to be in. Better to get up, in that case. But fifteen or twenty minutes isn't too long for you to snuggle with your son while he drifts off to sleep, if he simply needs a longer transition. If its somewhere in between twenty minutes and an hour, then there's no reason not to make your suggestion to your son and see what he says. But if he doesn't like the idea, then its time to look for another option. If he's not sleeping anyway, the bedtime isn't doing what its supposed to do - making sure he gets a certain amount of sleep.

> The underlying feeling I seem to have is resentment, frustration about having to do something I do not want to do at all. I'm trying to figure out why..
************ ********* **

Doing something you don't want to do at all is a good reason to feel resentment if you ask me! With parenting issues, it can help to look for reasons to want to do things, to put yourself in the position of actively choosing to do things, rather than feeling shoved around by circumstances. The school issue is a hard one, though. Do your kids want to go? Can you just keep the 5yo home on days he oversleeps?

If they really doe want to go and enjoy being there, then you have the option of embracing this decision and helping them with kindness and generosity.. Make it about them and something they love, the same way you would if any of your kids had some other love or interest that you didn't care for. Don't penalize your kids for their decisions! That pushes them away. Embrace their decisions so that you can continue to be an important part in their lives.

> Here's another question? In general, I don't force my kids to do anything, so aren't I allowed to say no to things that I don't feel like doing?
************ ********* *

You're allowed to do anything within the law, including hitting your kids! Unschooling isn't about allowing or disallowing, its about the choices you make every day. You have the option of choosing to be kind and thoughtful. You have the option of putting a better spin on things you're not happy about doing - find a way to be joyful or appreciative or full of love when you do them.

If you've fallen into a habit of resenting the time you spend with/on your kids, then breaking that habit is going to be really important. Unschooling doesn't work well in an atmosphere of resentment. So make an effort Right Now! to think of something about each or your children that brings you joy. What's wonderful about each of your kids? Find ways to remind yourself of that every day. Make an active effort to think kind and loving thoughts, about your kids, your husband, and yourself, too. What's wonderful about you?

In another post I mentioned proactive self-care. It can help, in a busy life, to do little things for yourself. Have special things or rituals just for your own pleasure. If reading is something you do for pleasure, then remind yourself of that when you pause to read, even if its only for a moment. Don't dwell on the next moment when you're running to the call of another child, savor the moment you have.

Savoring the moment was something I learned to do when Mo was 2 and I never seemed to have much time to myself. So I learned to savor those few moments at a time - and then turn right around and savor my kids during those other moments. My personal mantra became "savor it, because they'll never be this age again." Popular culture tells us its either us Or the kids, but you can savor both - taking care of yourself And taking care of your family.

---Meredith (Mo 8, Ray 16)
















[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Debra Rossing

> Have special things or rituals just for your own pleasure. If reading
is something you do for pleasure, then remind yourself of that when you
pause to read, even if its only for a moment

When DS was littler (and needed me a lot more than his 11 yr old self
does in some ways), I started to get frustrated that I couldn't even get
through a book before it was due back at the library (even after a
couple of renewals!) I realized that my best time for reading is when DS
is asleep. Alas, in the evening once he was asleep, I was falling asleep
too (or trying to stay awake to cuddle with DH). That left early
mornings before work. Not a lot of time there and a definite cut off so
I could get to work on time. And then a light bulb: Reader's Digest! I
can read an WHOLE magazine article, sometimes two or three even!, while
I'm eating breakfast. Satisfied the reader part of me readily enough for
the time. And, I can pick up the magazine and read a bit even when DS is
awake because it's small bits not a longer narrative. 5 or 10 minutes
gets me an entire article. Now we've got a whole range of magazines and
we all read them - Discover, National Geographic, Smithsonian, Pokemon
magazine, Time, etc. And, now that DS is 11, I get more time to read
longer books too when I want to.

Deb R


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

The Coffee Goddess

>>According to his physical therapist, he needs to be active. My husband
is worried about this too. However, my dh is not active himself. I'm a
very active person, but my son doesn't want to join me. I've noticed
that when my son wants to move, he can be very active. When I let him
be, he gets some activity, just not on my schedule. So, even though I
see that my son is getting some activity, when I see my husband
panicking, I begin to question myself.>>

Have you delved into Wii?  It's a great, fun way to be active while playing video games together.  Bowling, tennis, racing cows....it's all great fun!  My 11 yo has recently started working out with "Wii fit" and is getting into great shape--he complains every morning that his muscles hurt--but he loves it!

Dana





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

plaidpanties666

--- In [email protected], Toby Rosenberg <philipntoby@...> wrote:
>> This year he decided he wanted to go again because his cousin is going and his Dad wanted him to have Math and Reading at him which wasn't happening at home. I didn't want him to go because I think he likes the idea but he doesn't realize that he is commiting to 5 days a week, 8.5 hours a day. I wanted him to wait another year when he is at least in 1st grade. I miss him.
**************************

You're right, he doesn't understand about that kind of commitment, can't possibly understand. It Is going to be harder on the whole family with him in school. It just is. You're right about that, too. School impacts every aspect of your family, even those members of the family not in school.

If you ds5 is willing to stay home on days when he sleeps in, I'd look into that, and to making those days even more fun. Consider planning some fun activities on school days, too and offering to let him stay home for them. Make home a better choice for him than school so he wants to be there. If social activities are an issue, look for ways for him to have more social fun.

That's not an imediate solution to your problem, I know, but to some extent the only imediate solution to your problem is for you to change the way you see the matter. Its going to be hard. If you're expecting it to be easier, get easier, then that sets you up to fail, sets you up for disappointment and resentment. At the same time, don't blame your son for the hardship -its not his fault, its not About fault. Its whats happening in your life right now. If your house lost its roof in a tornado, it wouldn't be the house's fault. Give him all the love and support you can. Make it an active, conscious choice to be loving even though its difficult.

---Meredith (Mo 8, Ray 16)

Toby Rosenberg

The underlying problem here is that my husband does not understand unschooling and he has had it with all of my "new" ideas ie (extended nursing, family bed, TCS (taking children seriously, and now unschooling). To his credit, he has made a lot of changes, but he's saying now that's it, he can't/doesn't want to change anymore. Throughout all these changes I've been up against alot of resistance. I don't want to fight anymore trying to convince him of my views. It causes too much stress on our marriage. So, how do people help their husbands through this and help their children too?
 
 
--- On Fri, 10/1
 
 
 
 
6/09, plaidpanties666 <meredith@...> wrote:


From: plaidpanties666 <meredith@...>
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: Bedtime/philosophy
To: [email protected]
Date: Friday, October 16, 2009, 3:25 PM


 



--- In unschoolingbasics@ yahoogroups. com, Toby Rosenberg <philipntoby@ ....> wrote:
>> This year he decided he wanted to go again because his cousin is going and his Dad wanted him to have Math and Reading at him which wasn't happening at home. I didn't want him to go because I think he likes the idea but he doesn't realize that he is commiting to 5 days a week, 8.5 hours a day. I wanted him to wait another year when he is at least in 1st grade. I miss him.
************ ********* *****

You're right, he doesn't understand about that kind of commitment, can't possibly understand. It Is going to be harder on the whole family with him in school. It just is. You're right about that, too. School impacts every aspect of your family, even those members of the family not in school.

If you ds5 is willing to stay home on days when he sleeps in, I'd look into that, and to making those days even more fun. Consider planning some fun activities on school days, too and offering to let him stay home for them. Make home a better choice for him than school so he wants to be there. If social activities are an issue, look for ways for him to have more social fun..

That's not an imediate solution to your problem, I know, but to some extent the only imediate solution to your problem is for you to change the way you see the matter. Its going to be hard. If you're expecting it to be easier, get easier, then that sets you up to fail, sets you up for disappointment and resentment. At the same time, don't blame your son for the hardship -its not his fault, its not About fault. Its whats happening in your life right now. If your house lost its roof in a tornado, it wouldn't be the house's fault. Give him all the love and support you can. Make it an active, conscious choice to be loving even though its difficult.

---Meredith (Mo 8, Ray 16)
















[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joyce Fetteroll

On Oct 17, 2009, at 11:39 PM, Toby Rosenberg wrote:

> I don't want to fight anymore trying to convince him of my views.
> It causes too much stress on our marriage. So, how do people help
> their husbands through this and help their children too?

I suspect what you've been doing is focusing on your needs and how he
needs to change to meet them. Now he's fed up and maybe using the
same tactic. Which doesn't feel so great!

What are his needs? What does he need to feel comfortable? It's often
less than it seems! Right now he may have been pushed so far beyond
his comfort zone that his demands for his needs are greater than what
he really needs to feel comfortable. Just like kids often glut on
forbidden foods that were restricted. He may be glutting because he's
been uncomfortable for so long.

Ask him. Make a list so he knows you're taking this seriously. Don't
debate with him. His needs are his needs. Try to get specific. Rather
than "put them in school to get reading", try to find out what will
help him feel comfortable that the kids aren't being short changed in
reading. (If he can't get specific right now, that's okay. He may
feel like a drowning man grasping a piece of driftwood.)

He's scared. He loves his kids and you're doing goofy things with
them. What if he joined a very off the wall cult and took the kids
along with him? How could he convince you it wasn't damaging? Would
having literature shoved in your face do it? The words are written by
equally goofy people as propaganda. Why would you trust it?

You've had several years of fighting him to get your way. Find a way
to be peaceful where you are so he can stop struggling. That doesn't
mean stop trying to make things better. It means stop ramming your
way down his throat.

What are the great things that are happening because of unschooling?
Write him a quick email, text, or share with him when he comes home.
Don't use them as ways to convince him. Use them to involve him more
in what's going on with their lives.

Joyce




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

aud77rey

Hi everyone,
I just read the whole thread up until 10-18. Thank you to all that posted. These are issues I've been struggling with and reading the responses helps me see where I've gone off track. Toby, I've had a lot of similar experiences with juggling the kids and facing a husband that's not "on board" on so many levels and struggling with fear about too much TV/DVD time. I don't have further insight but want to take the opportunity to rant.
About TV...I think we just don't know. People on these lists have made really good suggestions and talked about great insights that fly in the face of not only media information on the issue of how much is too much (funny thinking about media being a voice in this) but even the medical/scientific/psychological articles. At the same time information comes out that weakens the brickwall approach to TV, ie the definite "no good" opinion. So now what...on the one hand you want to create the optimum environment for your kids and on the other hand you don't have definite information. Not a place we haven't been before as parents, especially thinking of the first baby year.I try to calm myself by saying if we don't have aenough information then the most important thing to preserve during the uncertainty is the relationship with our kids...ie the respect, humbleness, presence, being open. Does anyone else agree that this is the bottom line...can anyone else rephrase this better for me?

When I'm most on my game with the juggling the kids thing I remember that this is just a phase and it will pass. Then I can laugh during the hard moments and in 45 minutes things are at a different point eg the kids aren't both asking for me anymore. Maybe at the worst moments it would be helpful to realize that you weren't given all the tools and insight you could use and you'll have to make do with what you know and since at that yucky moment you don't know the best way to make everything all better you just sit with it and laugh to yourself. Sometimes just being present quietly or soothingly for your kids or yourself helps you get through the hard part without anyone getting hurt. So in the thick of feeling like chaos has unleashed that just sitting through it marveling at it and knowing that it's ok that you don't know what to do can bring an inner peace and soon the moment will of course pass or an idea will present itself or things will get even worse but then again better. I try to think about how some of my friends' parents have acted in the face of a hardship and how they didn't take it out on the kids but actually included them in the process so the kids' (now my grown-up friends) memories of the incidents or phases of time is one of meaningful connection to the parents in the face of the hardship. That's a powerful memory of better modeled parenting. If my kids can have a few memories at least of times that were tough where I remained connected with them and that i was soothing and patient while they cried screamed ranted then that'll be icing on the cake.

The husband thing [during the bedtime chaos]...oy...sometimes I realize if I get away from focusing on "well if he were helpful and involved things would be smoother, things would be more right" to "this is my reality now, how am I going to deal with this" then I can be more effective, ie the first way of thinking is fraught with negativity that drags me down. The second way is more optomistic. I can always choose a life without my husband if it's clear he does not want to change and be a part of blah blah blah, but at this point it was my choice to stay.

Still maybe a brainstorming meeting with each kid and husband separately or together would bring new ideas for coping.

Audrey