Marriage and Unschooling
Hannick Powell
Hi all,
Just wanted to write because I was a little saddened to read Bekki's post (I am so sorry Bekki, I hope things can work out for you!) and many other posts in the past where being married and unschooling - especially when natural parenting - seem to not work well together (not that I know your situation Bekki, there may be completely different issues there).
I find this sad because I think that if it is possible and if it can work, it is very beneficial for a child to have both parents around. I wonder if anyone has any good advice for making marriage work well while still keeping to unschooling/natural parenting?
Personally I try to have the same goals for my husband and myself as I do for my son - I feels it's important for ALL our needs to be met or at least heard and understood. I have some unschooling friends who are so focused on meeting their child's needs that they forget that their husbands needs and their own needs are important too - this is so easy to do, I know I can fall into that sometimes because I think "we are adults, we don't need as much". But the truth is, whenever I fall into this trap I become very resentful, either towards my husband, myself or my son, and that's not fair or loving to any of us. I think adults do need as much as children and although they can mask or "control" that need better, it doesn't mean it should be totally overlooked.
I also think it is not giving children a very good example of relationships and how they should hold their personal boundaries when they are adults. As a mother, it is so easy to think that we should resign ourselves and our value for the greater good of mothering or being a "good wife" - but in fact mothers that I really respect have amazing boundaries with themselves and demonstrate how their value for themselves is very important and therefore teaches their children that valuing themselves is important too. I think it would be bizarre to be putting so much effort into teaching my son to value and communicate his needs when letting my own needs be ignored or disregarded and not being an example of positive communication within a married or partnered relationship.
I think if a woman needs romance/attention/affection/understanding, it should be dealt with in love and not ignored. I feel the same for husbands. I know many co-sleeping husbands really struggle because they feel they are not getting enough time for their need for closeness and intimacy with their wife. And it's not just sex, a lot of men really need to just be close to their wives physically - lying next to them or sitting by them while working or whatever, on a regular basis to feel connected - for women we usually need more opportunity to talk and feel understood and cared for. I'm not saying co-sleeping is bad (because it's wonderful!) but I wonder whether this need just gets ignored because the other parent thinks they have to give up co-sleeping, so just ignores the real need - a need for closeness, or if it gets met in other ways (like having regular dates or having some designated alone time).
Anyway, I just wonder what other peoples thoughts are on this because it makes me so sad to hear so many unschooling families break up because there seems to be so much positive attention given to parenting and meeting the needs of the children that many forget that they also need to meet the needs of themselves and their partners. Of course there are so many factors to take into account and all situations are different, but with unschooling specifically, I wonder whether things can work so that ALL needs are met/heard. I think I'm a MUCH better mother when I feel my needs are met too and my husband and I are connected and working together!!! What do you guys think??
Hannah.
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Just wanted to write because I was a little saddened to read Bekki's post (I am so sorry Bekki, I hope things can work out for you!) and many other posts in the past where being married and unschooling - especially when natural parenting - seem to not work well together (not that I know your situation Bekki, there may be completely different issues there).
I find this sad because I think that if it is possible and if it can work, it is very beneficial for a child to have both parents around. I wonder if anyone has any good advice for making marriage work well while still keeping to unschooling/natural parenting?
Personally I try to have the same goals for my husband and myself as I do for my son - I feels it's important for ALL our needs to be met or at least heard and understood. I have some unschooling friends who are so focused on meeting their child's needs that they forget that their husbands needs and their own needs are important too - this is so easy to do, I know I can fall into that sometimes because I think "we are adults, we don't need as much". But the truth is, whenever I fall into this trap I become very resentful, either towards my husband, myself or my son, and that's not fair or loving to any of us. I think adults do need as much as children and although they can mask or "control" that need better, it doesn't mean it should be totally overlooked.
I also think it is not giving children a very good example of relationships and how they should hold their personal boundaries when they are adults. As a mother, it is so easy to think that we should resign ourselves and our value for the greater good of mothering or being a "good wife" - but in fact mothers that I really respect have amazing boundaries with themselves and demonstrate how their value for themselves is very important and therefore teaches their children that valuing themselves is important too. I think it would be bizarre to be putting so much effort into teaching my son to value and communicate his needs when letting my own needs be ignored or disregarded and not being an example of positive communication within a married or partnered relationship.
I think if a woman needs romance/attention/affection/understanding, it should be dealt with in love and not ignored. I feel the same for husbands. I know many co-sleeping husbands really struggle because they feel they are not getting enough time for their need for closeness and intimacy with their wife. And it's not just sex, a lot of men really need to just be close to their wives physically - lying next to them or sitting by them while working or whatever, on a regular basis to feel connected - for women we usually need more opportunity to talk and feel understood and cared for. I'm not saying co-sleeping is bad (because it's wonderful!) but I wonder whether this need just gets ignored because the other parent thinks they have to give up co-sleeping, so just ignores the real need - a need for closeness, or if it gets met in other ways (like having regular dates or having some designated alone time).
Anyway, I just wonder what other peoples thoughts are on this because it makes me so sad to hear so many unschooling families break up because there seems to be so much positive attention given to parenting and meeting the needs of the children that many forget that they also need to meet the needs of themselves and their partners. Of course there are so many factors to take into account and all situations are different, but with unschooling specifically, I wonder whether things can work so that ALL needs are met/heard. I think I'm a MUCH better mother when I feel my needs are met too and my husband and I are connected and working together!!! What do you guys think??
Hannah.
__________________________________________________________________________________
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jeff Sabo
***Hannah wrote: "Anyway, I just wonder what other peoples thoughts are on this because it makes me so sad to hear so many unschooling families break up because there seems to be so much positive attention given to parenting and meeting the needs of the children that many forget that they also need to meet the needs of themselves and their partners. Of course there are so many factors to take into account and all situations are different, but with unschooling specifically, I wonder whether things can work so that ALL needs are met/heard."***
What an interesting thread this should turn out to be! Let me offer a Dad/Husband's perspective, both in short form and long form.
In short form, I think ALL positive relationships require a few things - respect, understanding, empathy, truth, openness, appreciation, self-reflection, and self-honesty. I have NEVER seen a relationship thrive without these as the building blocks. Without these in place, maintaining a decent relationship is difficult even in families that practice "traditional" parenting and send their kids to public schools. Add in the amazing challenges of unschooling (shifting paradigms, dropping old baggage, trusting in your children and partner completely, etc) and in my opinion it's really, REALLY hard to have a family full of relationships that will meet everyone's needs while remianing true to the principles of unschooling and positive parenting.
In long form (yeah, I know, the paragraph above WAS long!), I think that any discussion of how well a marriage works in unschooling depends on how we entered into the marriage in the first place. If we enter relationships thinking we can or should be able to change the other person to mold our own wants or needs, we're leading a bit of a fallacy, no? What we can do is be honest with ourselves about our own likes, dislikes, needs, passions, boiling points, etc, so we understand ourselves before we try to understand others. We can also continue to act according to our own principles and guidelines, both to stay true to ourselves and to model that behavior for others. We can certainly continue to be introspective. And we should always be willing to help our partners hold a mirror up to themselves - not so that they can see our view of whether/why their actions are right or wrong, but because it is sometimes hard for people to see their own actions in an
objective light. I don't see this as an attempt to change or control my partner; maybe I'm naiive, but I see it simply as a way to help them see what they need so I can help them fill it.
Bottom line, I think, is that we do have a responsibility to tell each other the truth without blame or judgment. The subtlety is in our expectations of what our partner "should" do when we offer our insights. Are we expecting them to change, demanding that they see our perspective, judging their inability to be/do exactly what we want? Or are we simply stating our observations, seeking ways to connect and help if needed, and ensuring that OUR OWN needs are known?
Sometimes, things just ARE - they aren't always someone's fault, and they are not always controllable. Nowhere is this more true than in the most complicated of all systems, the family relationship. We have so many different inputs to a family dynamic that are outside of our direct control: our backgrounds and upbringings, schools, TV, thoughts, desires, economic conditions, jobs, you name it. When you consider all of those factors pulling people in different directions, it is a wonder that we are able to keep it together as well as we are sometimes. The people who can keep it together do so by controlling only what is in their control - themselves, their own attitudes, their own feelings, and the ways they choose to interact with their family members.
Looking forward to other responses!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
What an interesting thread this should turn out to be! Let me offer a Dad/Husband's perspective, both in short form and long form.
In short form, I think ALL positive relationships require a few things - respect, understanding, empathy, truth, openness, appreciation, self-reflection, and self-honesty. I have NEVER seen a relationship thrive without these as the building blocks. Without these in place, maintaining a decent relationship is difficult even in families that practice "traditional" parenting and send their kids to public schools. Add in the amazing challenges of unschooling (shifting paradigms, dropping old baggage, trusting in your children and partner completely, etc) and in my opinion it's really, REALLY hard to have a family full of relationships that will meet everyone's needs while remianing true to the principles of unschooling and positive parenting.
In long form (yeah, I know, the paragraph above WAS long!), I think that any discussion of how well a marriage works in unschooling depends on how we entered into the marriage in the first place. If we enter relationships thinking we can or should be able to change the other person to mold our own wants or needs, we're leading a bit of a fallacy, no? What we can do is be honest with ourselves about our own likes, dislikes, needs, passions, boiling points, etc, so we understand ourselves before we try to understand others. We can also continue to act according to our own principles and guidelines, both to stay true to ourselves and to model that behavior for others. We can certainly continue to be introspective. And we should always be willing to help our partners hold a mirror up to themselves - not so that they can see our view of whether/why their actions are right or wrong, but because it is sometimes hard for people to see their own actions in an
objective light. I don't see this as an attempt to change or control my partner; maybe I'm naiive, but I see it simply as a way to help them see what they need so I can help them fill it.
Bottom line, I think, is that we do have a responsibility to tell each other the truth without blame or judgment. The subtlety is in our expectations of what our partner "should" do when we offer our insights. Are we expecting them to change, demanding that they see our perspective, judging their inability to be/do exactly what we want? Or are we simply stating our observations, seeking ways to connect and help if needed, and ensuring that OUR OWN needs are known?
Sometimes, things just ARE - they aren't always someone's fault, and they are not always controllable. Nowhere is this more true than in the most complicated of all systems, the family relationship. We have so many different inputs to a family dynamic that are outside of our direct control: our backgrounds and upbringings, schools, TV, thoughts, desires, economic conditions, jobs, you name it. When you consider all of those factors pulling people in different directions, it is a wonder that we are able to keep it together as well as we are sometimes. The people who can keep it together do so by controlling only what is in their control - themselves, their own attitudes, their own feelings, and the ways they choose to interact with their family members.
Looking forward to other responses!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
plaidpanties666
--- In [email protected], Hannick Powell <nhpowells@...> wrote:
Yes! My principles aren't just something I extend to my kids but to my partner and everyone I know. I'm not trying to be kind just to be a good parent, but because I value kindness.
This was something George and I talked about early in our unschooling journey - he was starting to feel like his needs were less important than the kids, so I worked on actively valuing (and where possible helping meet) his needs more.
Because I like to think in terms of kindness and giving to others, I also sometimes remind myself that I "get" to be kind and giving to myself, too. I try Not to think of that in terms of "balance" though - I mean I'm not trying to balance out what I give to others by giving to myself. That's a formula for resentment. Sometimes my needs Do come first so that I can be as kind and giving as I'd like to be. Its not going to do anyone any good if I'm cranky and resentful bc I haven't eaten, for instance.
One way this often seems to become an issue is that several needs become conflated - closeness, conversation, privacy and sex all get rolled together into "parents (quiet) time together before sleep". That's where co-sleeping - and no bedtimes - can blow up into a biiiig issue. It can help to look for ways to meet each need separately - finding other places to have sex, for instance, or learning how to integrate adult conversation into kid/family activities. It can also help to look for ways to gently transition away from co-sleeping, like adding another bed to the room (for the kid, for one parent, whatever), or making a "nest" out of cushions on the floor next to the bed.
Something Hannah didn't mention, I don't think, is that its important to let our partner know how much we value and appreciate them for all they do - whichever partner you may be! At home parents need to feel valued and appreciated and so do work-away parents. No-one likes to feel that this wonderful life of freedom is built across the back of someone else.
---Meredith (Mo 8, Ray 16)
>> Personally I try to have the same goals for my husband and myself as I do for my son - I feels it's important for ALL our needs to be met or at least heard and understood.***********************
Yes! My principles aren't just something I extend to my kids but to my partner and everyone I know. I'm not trying to be kind just to be a good parent, but because I value kindness.
This was something George and I talked about early in our unschooling journey - he was starting to feel like his needs were less important than the kids, so I worked on actively valuing (and where possible helping meet) his needs more.
>> I know I can fall into that sometimes because I think "we are adults, we don't need as much". But the truth is, whenever I fall into this trap I become very resentful, either towards my husband, myself or my son, and that's not fair or loving to any of us. I think adults do need as much as children and although they can mask or "control" that need better, it doesn't mean it should be totally overlooked.*********************
Because I like to think in terms of kindness and giving to others, I also sometimes remind myself that I "get" to be kind and giving to myself, too. I try Not to think of that in terms of "balance" though - I mean I'm not trying to balance out what I give to others by giving to myself. That's a formula for resentment. Sometimes my needs Do come first so that I can be as kind and giving as I'd like to be. Its not going to do anyone any good if I'm cranky and resentful bc I haven't eaten, for instance.
>> I'm not saying co-sleeping is bad (because it's wonderful!) but I wonder whether this need just gets ignored because the other parent thinks they have to give up co-sleeping, so just ignores the real need - a need for closeness, or if it gets met in other ways (like having regular dates or having some designated alone time).****************************
One way this often seems to become an issue is that several needs become conflated - closeness, conversation, privacy and sex all get rolled together into "parents (quiet) time together before sleep". That's where co-sleeping - and no bedtimes - can blow up into a biiiig issue. It can help to look for ways to meet each need separately - finding other places to have sex, for instance, or learning how to integrate adult conversation into kid/family activities. It can also help to look for ways to gently transition away from co-sleeping, like adding another bed to the room (for the kid, for one parent, whatever), or making a "nest" out of cushions on the floor next to the bed.
Something Hannah didn't mention, I don't think, is that its important to let our partner know how much we value and appreciate them for all they do - whichever partner you may be! At home parents need to feel valued and appreciated and so do work-away parents. No-one likes to feel that this wonderful life of freedom is built across the back of someone else.
---Meredith (Mo 8, Ray 16)