List guidelines
gruvystarchild
I've been seeing a lot of posts lately that are giving advice completely contrary to gentle/mindful parenting and unschooling. I think it's time to remind everyone what our list guidelines are and what this list is about.
If you're new to a list, it's a good idea to read a while before you start giving advice. When advice is given that is so beyond the focus of the list, it's hard to handle the many responses that make you feel like everyone in the world is saying you're "wrong". It's overwhelming, so please, please read for a while and get a feel for the atmosphere and
the general style of the list before you start posting.
Our list description:
~~~A list designed for those new to the philosophy of unschooling. Ask experienced unschoolers all those niggling questions, and find out how unschooling works in real families.
If you're familiar with John Holt's work, but unsure of how to begin or what an unschooling day really looks like, this is a place for you to discuss,question, ponder and become deeply familiar with natural learning and how it affects our entire lives. From parenting issues to learning from the whole wide world and beyond, come explore the issues that unschooling families have dealt with in the past and how to get beyond "school-think" to a joyful unschooling lifestyle!~~~~
And our guidelines, which should be read carefully upon joining!
Dear new member,
Welcome to the unschoolingbasics list. We look forward to sharing information and ideas with you, but first, we ask you to look over our posting and list guidelines:
1) No discussions will be allowed about posts. This is called a "meta-discussion" (discussing the discussion) and posts analyzing another person's post or posting style will be rejected and the member put on moderation. If there is something about a post that bothers you, stick to discussing the ideas presented, rather than the post itself.
2) Please only post issues/topics that you are open to discussing. If it's in your message, it's open to discussion.
3) Try to change the subject line if the topic changes. This will help us all access archives and utilize the discussions more effectively. Also, trim your posts to avoid a message that takes up too much room. It's difficult to read through them.
4) All new members will be moderated in order to prevent spam from reaching the list. We try to remove members quickly, but please be patient. It's also a chance for you to get a feel for the "culture" of the list.
5) This list supports AP styles of parenting, which include no spanking or punitive methods. If you are interested in learning methods of parenting that do not involve punishment and hitting, this is a wonderful resource. We love helping families find more positive ways of relating. If you are interested in defending punitive styles, this might not be the best list for you. Many of us have used these methods in the past and found new and better ways of relating to our children. While you will find support if you're interested in learning new methods, you will also find some pretty strong opinions if you believe punitive/controlling parenting is best.
6) If you post something that the owners or moderators know will be inflammatory, we will offer to post it for you, without your name attached. That way, newer members can read the responses and decide if they want to participate in the discussion without feeling that they're being personally attacked. Remember, this IS a discussion list and we love to question and discuss!:)
7)This is a secular list, meaning that anyone of any religous persuasion (or none at all) is welcome here. We understand that the topic of religion may surface and that is acceptable, but we do not allow preaching or religous debates of any kind. We are a diverse list and we ask all members to simply respect the fact that our list represents many different belief systems. We are all here to discuss unschooling and how it applies in all of our lives.
Also, if you visit the actual site, we are adding information and resources under the "links" section. Book recommendations, blogs and websites will be linked for you to access.
Feel free to upload pictures of yourself and family at the "photos" section if you wish. Sometimes it's nice to have a visual of the folks we talk with daily.
One last thing:
If you have questions, problems, comments or compliments (yeah, we love those:), please feel free to write the list owners~ Kelly Lovejoy or Ren Allen, or the moderators~ Rue Kream or Deb Lewis. If you send an email to "list owners" we will all receive it.
So welcome! Let's get talking....
Ren and Kelly
Is there anything unclear in the guidelines? Have I failed to make it obvious that we are NOT in support of punishment/reward styles of parenting? Please let me know if I need to add anything.
I wonder if people are even reading the guidelines when they join....it's been frustrating lately.
Ren
radicalunschooling.blogspot.com
If you're new to a list, it's a good idea to read a while before you start giving advice. When advice is given that is so beyond the focus of the list, it's hard to handle the many responses that make you feel like everyone in the world is saying you're "wrong". It's overwhelming, so please, please read for a while and get a feel for the atmosphere and
the general style of the list before you start posting.
Our list description:
~~~A list designed for those new to the philosophy of unschooling. Ask experienced unschoolers all those niggling questions, and find out how unschooling works in real families.
If you're familiar with John Holt's work, but unsure of how to begin or what an unschooling day really looks like, this is a place for you to discuss,question, ponder and become deeply familiar with natural learning and how it affects our entire lives. From parenting issues to learning from the whole wide world and beyond, come explore the issues that unschooling families have dealt with in the past and how to get beyond "school-think" to a joyful unschooling lifestyle!~~~~
And our guidelines, which should be read carefully upon joining!
Dear new member,
Welcome to the unschoolingbasics list. We look forward to sharing information and ideas with you, but first, we ask you to look over our posting and list guidelines:
1) No discussions will be allowed about posts. This is called a "meta-discussion" (discussing the discussion) and posts analyzing another person's post or posting style will be rejected and the member put on moderation. If there is something about a post that bothers you, stick to discussing the ideas presented, rather than the post itself.
2) Please only post issues/topics that you are open to discussing. If it's in your message, it's open to discussion.
3) Try to change the subject line if the topic changes. This will help us all access archives and utilize the discussions more effectively. Also, trim your posts to avoid a message that takes up too much room. It's difficult to read through them.
4) All new members will be moderated in order to prevent spam from reaching the list. We try to remove members quickly, but please be patient. It's also a chance for you to get a feel for the "culture" of the list.
5) This list supports AP styles of parenting, which include no spanking or punitive methods. If you are interested in learning methods of parenting that do not involve punishment and hitting, this is a wonderful resource. We love helping families find more positive ways of relating. If you are interested in defending punitive styles, this might not be the best list for you. Many of us have used these methods in the past and found new and better ways of relating to our children. While you will find support if you're interested in learning new methods, you will also find some pretty strong opinions if you believe punitive/controlling parenting is best.
6) If you post something that the owners or moderators know will be inflammatory, we will offer to post it for you, without your name attached. That way, newer members can read the responses and decide if they want to participate in the discussion without feeling that they're being personally attacked. Remember, this IS a discussion list and we love to question and discuss!:)
7)This is a secular list, meaning that anyone of any religous persuasion (or none at all) is welcome here. We understand that the topic of religion may surface and that is acceptable, but we do not allow preaching or religous debates of any kind. We are a diverse list and we ask all members to simply respect the fact that our list represents many different belief systems. We are all here to discuss unschooling and how it applies in all of our lives.
Also, if you visit the actual site, we are adding information and resources under the "links" section. Book recommendations, blogs and websites will be linked for you to access.
Feel free to upload pictures of yourself and family at the "photos" section if you wish. Sometimes it's nice to have a visual of the folks we talk with daily.
One last thing:
If you have questions, problems, comments or compliments (yeah, we love those:), please feel free to write the list owners~ Kelly Lovejoy or Ren Allen, or the moderators~ Rue Kream or Deb Lewis. If you send an email to "list owners" we will all receive it.
So welcome! Let's get talking....
Ren and Kelly
Is there anything unclear in the guidelines? Have I failed to make it obvious that we are NOT in support of punishment/reward styles of parenting? Please let me know if I need to add anything.
I wonder if people are even reading the guidelines when they join....it's been frustrating lately.
Ren
radicalunschooling.blogspot.com
Umm Ilyas
"If you're familiar with John Holt's work, but unsure of how to begin or
what an unschooling day really looks like, this is a place for you to
discuss,question, ponder and become deeply familiar with natural
learning and how it affects our entire lives."
That is so me! Thanks for posting the guidelines again.
My biggest struggle right now is not so much the 'academic' side of unschooling, but the parenting aspect. Rationally, I am on board with NOT using punitive, controlling parenting. But in practice I'm finding it very hard. For those of you who were raised in more controlling, punitive families (by this I mean mainstream parenting, not necessarily what most would define as abuse), how did you make the transition? Did it come naturally? Or was it a struggle? How do you draw the line between non-controlling, non-punitive relationship and absentee parenting?
********
One thing I wonder - when your children interact with other adults, do you place the responsibility for drawing personal boundaries on the other adult? For example, my oldest will talk the ear off a brass monkey. Seriousely. And when he 'catches' an unsuspecting adult to chat with, it can go on and on and on ....
My inclination (as a natural micro-manager) is to jump in at a certain point and say "Son, that's enough chatting for now. Let's let Ms. P get on with her day" Or something like that. But other times I think, no, let's just let things run their natural course. If the adult wants to get out of the converstation, the adult can say "well, gotta go now!"
********
Would love any thoughts on any of this!
Darcy
________________________________
F
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
what an unschooling day really looks like, this is a place for you to
discuss,question, ponder and become deeply familiar with natural
learning and how it affects our entire lives."
That is so me! Thanks for posting the guidelines again.
My biggest struggle right now is not so much the 'academic' side of unschooling, but the parenting aspect. Rationally, I am on board with NOT using punitive, controlling parenting. But in practice I'm finding it very hard. For those of you who were raised in more controlling, punitive families (by this I mean mainstream parenting, not necessarily what most would define as abuse), how did you make the transition? Did it come naturally? Or was it a struggle? How do you draw the line between non-controlling, non-punitive relationship and absentee parenting?
********
One thing I wonder - when your children interact with other adults, do you place the responsibility for drawing personal boundaries on the other adult? For example, my oldest will talk the ear off a brass monkey. Seriousely. And when he 'catches' an unsuspecting adult to chat with, it can go on and on and on ....
My inclination (as a natural micro-manager) is to jump in at a certain point and say "Son, that's enough chatting for now. Let's let Ms. P get on with her day" Or something like that. But other times I think, no, let's just let things run their natural course. If the adult wants to get out of the converstation, the adult can say "well, gotta go now!"
********
Would love any thoughts on any of this!
Darcy
________________________________
F
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jeff Sabo
Cuddlfishy wrote: ***For those of you who were raised in more controlling, punitive families (by this I mean mainstream parenting, not necessarily what most would define as abuse), how did you make the transition? Did it come naturally? Or was it a struggle?*** How do you draw the line between non-controlling, non-punitive relationship and absentee parenting?***
I am no expert on this subject by any means. But I was raised in a household that was both controlling and abusive and my childhood was spent with two parents who didn't like each other, so the issue of control has been a theme that I've had the opportunity to give a lot of thought to. I thought I had it figured out (under control, if you will) until we decided to unschool, but then it popped up yet again - because unschooling for us was such a change from the way I was raised, I had to really let go.
At its essence, my general theory about control is this: we all need a certain amount of it. That amount is different for each person based on brain chemistry, genetics, upbringing, fears, etc.
If we operate under the fundamental thought that we all need a finite measure of control, then it's a quick leap to this: if I have firm control over something in my life and I lose that control for some reason, I'll need/strive to gain control over something else in my life to balance my overall Control Account. It's simple accounting, really; a debit in one place leads to a credit in another.
In real terms, it works like this, at least for me. When things are going great at work - when I am valued, when I know what I'm doing, when I can measure my success, when good things are happening - then I feel in control of work, and I am able to completely let go at home. When things at work suck (as they have for the past month until a few days ago), then I feel out of control at work. My brain somehow determines that I need to control something, dammit - and so I control whatever else I can to get some sense of balance. I always try to control "insignificant" things first, like responding to emails, cleaning the house, doing dishes, restocking the kitchen, etc. When that doesn't work well enough or quickly enough, then I become the Sabo Family House Jackass because I attempt to control everything that happens at home. This isn't intentional; I don't want to be the Jackass. I try to control other stuff. Just doesn't always happen.
But this has become very rare since we started to unschool, and I think that the basic reason for that is because unschooling for us isn't just about education & learning, and it's not only about mindful and respectful parenting - it's about mindful and respectful living, with our kids, with each other, with friends/family/others, with all we come in contact with. But most importantly, for all of that to work we had to learn to be respectful and mindful of ourselves. Once I decided to respect who I was and who I wanted to be, I was realy able to break the chains and paradigms of how I was raised. Let me be clear - it wasn't about simply committing that I would do better with my own kids, it was about committing to do better with myself; after that, doing better with the kids became easy because I was no longer burdened with my own baggage.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I am no expert on this subject by any means. But I was raised in a household that was both controlling and abusive and my childhood was spent with two parents who didn't like each other, so the issue of control has been a theme that I've had the opportunity to give a lot of thought to. I thought I had it figured out (under control, if you will) until we decided to unschool, but then it popped up yet again - because unschooling for us was such a change from the way I was raised, I had to really let go.
At its essence, my general theory about control is this: we all need a certain amount of it. That amount is different for each person based on brain chemistry, genetics, upbringing, fears, etc.
If we operate under the fundamental thought that we all need a finite measure of control, then it's a quick leap to this: if I have firm control over something in my life and I lose that control for some reason, I'll need/strive to gain control over something else in my life to balance my overall Control Account. It's simple accounting, really; a debit in one place leads to a credit in another.
In real terms, it works like this, at least for me. When things are going great at work - when I am valued, when I know what I'm doing, when I can measure my success, when good things are happening - then I feel in control of work, and I am able to completely let go at home. When things at work suck (as they have for the past month until a few days ago), then I feel out of control at work. My brain somehow determines that I need to control something, dammit - and so I control whatever else I can to get some sense of balance. I always try to control "insignificant" things first, like responding to emails, cleaning the house, doing dishes, restocking the kitchen, etc. When that doesn't work well enough or quickly enough, then I become the Sabo Family House Jackass because I attempt to control everything that happens at home. This isn't intentional; I don't want to be the Jackass. I try to control other stuff. Just doesn't always happen.
But this has become very rare since we started to unschool, and I think that the basic reason for that is because unschooling for us isn't just about education & learning, and it's not only about mindful and respectful parenting - it's about mindful and respectful living, with our kids, with each other, with friends/family/others, with all we come in contact with. But most importantly, for all of that to work we had to learn to be respectful and mindful of ourselves. Once I decided to respect who I was and who I wanted to be, I was realy able to break the chains and paradigms of how I was raised. Let me be clear - it wasn't about simply committing that I would do better with my own kids, it was about committing to do better with myself; after that, doing better with the kids became easy because I was no longer burdened with my own baggage.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jeff Sabo
Cuddlfishy wrote: ***How do you draw the line between non-controlling, non-punitive relationship and absentee parenting?***
From a strict unschooling view, I try to look at our guidelines in one of two buckets - arbitrary and not arbitrary. An arbitrary guideline might be something like a demand for a cleaned toy room or to have dirty dishes returned to the sink immediately after use - in other words, a guideline that has to do with OUR need to have OUR KIDS conform to something WE WANT. A non-arbitrary guideline might be something like brandishing a knife in a threatening manner, or shooting golf balls at a picture window, for example. These are things that would create HARM or DANGER, for our kids or others.
The concept of "absentee parenting" or "unparenting" is always interesting. I think that any discussion about that requires people to have the same understanding of what parenting IS before they think about what parenting IS NOT. In our family, it's pretty simple: our role is to love, empower, explore, coach, aid, listen, learn, care about/for. Control is not part of the job description. "Absentee Parenting" is the opposite of those words, feelings and actions.
Jeff
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
From a strict unschooling view, I try to look at our guidelines in one of two buckets - arbitrary and not arbitrary. An arbitrary guideline might be something like a demand for a cleaned toy room or to have dirty dishes returned to the sink immediately after use - in other words, a guideline that has to do with OUR need to have OUR KIDS conform to something WE WANT. A non-arbitrary guideline might be something like brandishing a knife in a threatening manner, or shooting golf balls at a picture window, for example. These are things that would create HARM or DANGER, for our kids or others.
The concept of "absentee parenting" or "unparenting" is always interesting. I think that any discussion about that requires people to have the same understanding of what parenting IS before they think about what parenting IS NOT. In our family, it's pretty simple: our role is to love, empower, explore, coach, aid, listen, learn, care about/for. Control is not part of the job description. "Absentee Parenting" is the opposite of those words, feelings and actions.
Jeff
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
>>> My biggest struggle right now is not so much the 'academic' side ofunschooling, but the parenting aspect. Rationally, I am on board with NOT
using punitive, controlling parenting. But in practice I'm finding it very
hard. For those of you who were raised in more controlling, punitive
families (by this I mean mainstream parenting, not necessarily what most
would define as abuse), how did you make the transition? Did it come
naturally? Or was it a struggle? How do you draw the line between
non-controlling, non-punitive relationship and absentee parenting? <<<<
If you were raised in a controlling and punitive family, the easiest way to
transition is to remember how it felt to constantly be controlled and
coerced. You may slip a lot in the beginning but as you train yourself to
think of how you felt as a kid then it becomes a lot easier. I still
struggle with it but not because I don't understand it. I struggle with it
because the mainstream way is really easy. It doesn't take near as much
energy to sit around barking orders as it does to stop and think about what
you are doing.
Absentee parents aren't there. As an unschooling parent, you will be there.
As a kid, my parents bounced back and forth between being overly controlling
and being absentee. An absentee parent doesn't listen to what their children
have to say. An absentee parent is never there. To keep from being an
absentee parent, you build trust between you and your children. You let them
know that they can come to you for ANYTHING without fear. I am always in the
background and my kids know that I am here if they want guidance or have a
question or just need a hug. An unschooling parent makes suggestions and
provides opportunities for children but is okay if the child rejects those
suggestions and opportunities. You become very aware of your children and
what they like and dislike and provide opportunities accordingly.
Connie
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Umm Ilyas
Brilliant. Thank you, Jeff.
Your description of control especially hit home. I notice that I do become more and more controlling as other aspects of my life spin out of control.
You also mentioned starting with yourself, rather than 'doing' unschooling or AP parenting 'to' the children (this is my paraphrasing - I hope I understood properly). Yes. Yes. Yes. I feel like I've approached this as a parenting style to reach a desired outcome. I want my children to be "HEALTHY' and "GOOD" and after much research determined that this is the "RIGHT WAY". Basically using unschooling/AP parenting as another system, with the kids as outputs. Maybe that's why it's felt a bit off, or disconnected. It's not just a parenting style, it's a way of life, I think you are saying.
Hmm. Hmm. Hmm. I've got some pondering to do!
BTW *Sabo Family House Jackass* - totally cracked me up! Thanks for that :)
-Darcy
________________________________
From: Jeff Sabo <freeboysdad@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Sunday, September 27, 2009 11:11:46 AM
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Making the transition
Cuddlfishy wrote: ***For those of you who were raised in more controlling, punitive families (by this I mean mainstream parenting, not necessarily what most would define as abuse), how did you make the transition? Did it come naturally? Or was it a struggle?*** How do you draw the line between non-controlling, non-punitive relationship and absentee parenting?** *
I am no expert on this subject by any means. But I was raised in a household that was both controlling and abusive and my childhood was spent with two parents who didn't like each other, so the issue of control has been a theme that I've had the opportunity to give a lot of thought to. I thought I had it figured out (under control, if you will) until we decided to unschool, but then it popped up yet again - because unschooling for us was such a change from the way I was raised, I had to really let go.
At its essence, my general theory about control is this: we all need a certain amount of it. That amount is different for each person based on brain chemistry, genetics, upbringing, fears, etc.
If we operate under the fundamental thought that we all need a finite measure of control, then it's a quick leap to this: if I have firm control over something in my life and I lose that control for some reason, I'll need/strive to gain control over something else in my life to balance my overall Control Account. It's simple accounting, really; a debit in one place leads to a credit in another.
In real terms, it works like this, at least for me. When things are going great at work - when I am valued, when I know what I'm doing, when I can measure my success, when good things are happening - then I feel in control of work, and I am able to completely let go at home. When things at work suck (as they have for the past month until a few days ago), then I feel out of control at work. My brain somehow determines that I need to control something, dammit - and so I control whatever else I can to get some sense of balance. I always try to control "insignificant" things first, like responding to emails, cleaning the house, doing dishes, restocking the kitchen, etc. When that doesn't work well enough or quickly enough, then I become the Sabo Family House Jackass because I attempt to control everything that happens at home. This isn't intentional; I don't want to be the Jackass. I try to control other stuff. Just doesn't always happen.
But this has become very rare since we started to unschool, and I think that the basic reason for that is because unschooling for us isn't just about education & learning, and it's not only about mindful and respectful parenting - it's about mindful and respectful living, with our kids, with each other, with friends/family/ others, with all we come in contact with. But most importantly, for all of that to work we had to learn to be respectful and mindful of ourselves. Once I decided to respect who I was and who I wanted to be, I was realy able to break the chains and paradigms of how I was raised. Let me be clear - it wasn't about simply committing that I would do better with my own kids, it was about committing to do better with myself; after that, doing better with the kids became easy because I was no longer burdened with my own baggage.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Your description of control especially hit home. I notice that I do become more and more controlling as other aspects of my life spin out of control.
You also mentioned starting with yourself, rather than 'doing' unschooling or AP parenting 'to' the children (this is my paraphrasing - I hope I understood properly). Yes. Yes. Yes. I feel like I've approached this as a parenting style to reach a desired outcome. I want my children to be "HEALTHY' and "GOOD" and after much research determined that this is the "RIGHT WAY". Basically using unschooling/AP parenting as another system, with the kids as outputs. Maybe that's why it's felt a bit off, or disconnected. It's not just a parenting style, it's a way of life, I think you are saying.
Hmm. Hmm. Hmm. I've got some pondering to do!
BTW *Sabo Family House Jackass* - totally cracked me up! Thanks for that :)
-Darcy
________________________________
From: Jeff Sabo <freeboysdad@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Sunday, September 27, 2009 11:11:46 AM
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Making the transition
Cuddlfishy wrote: ***For those of you who were raised in more controlling, punitive families (by this I mean mainstream parenting, not necessarily what most would define as abuse), how did you make the transition? Did it come naturally? Or was it a struggle?*** How do you draw the line between non-controlling, non-punitive relationship and absentee parenting?** *
I am no expert on this subject by any means. But I was raised in a household that was both controlling and abusive and my childhood was spent with two parents who didn't like each other, so the issue of control has been a theme that I've had the opportunity to give a lot of thought to. I thought I had it figured out (under control, if you will) until we decided to unschool, but then it popped up yet again - because unschooling for us was such a change from the way I was raised, I had to really let go.
At its essence, my general theory about control is this: we all need a certain amount of it. That amount is different for each person based on brain chemistry, genetics, upbringing, fears, etc.
If we operate under the fundamental thought that we all need a finite measure of control, then it's a quick leap to this: if I have firm control over something in my life and I lose that control for some reason, I'll need/strive to gain control over something else in my life to balance my overall Control Account. It's simple accounting, really; a debit in one place leads to a credit in another.
In real terms, it works like this, at least for me. When things are going great at work - when I am valued, when I know what I'm doing, when I can measure my success, when good things are happening - then I feel in control of work, and I am able to completely let go at home. When things at work suck (as they have for the past month until a few days ago), then I feel out of control at work. My brain somehow determines that I need to control something, dammit - and so I control whatever else I can to get some sense of balance. I always try to control "insignificant" things first, like responding to emails, cleaning the house, doing dishes, restocking the kitchen, etc. When that doesn't work well enough or quickly enough, then I become the Sabo Family House Jackass because I attempt to control everything that happens at home. This isn't intentional; I don't want to be the Jackass. I try to control other stuff. Just doesn't always happen.
But this has become very rare since we started to unschool, and I think that the basic reason for that is because unschooling for us isn't just about education & learning, and it's not only about mindful and respectful parenting - it's about mindful and respectful living, with our kids, with each other, with friends/family/ others, with all we come in contact with. But most importantly, for all of that to work we had to learn to be respectful and mindful of ourselves. Once I decided to respect who I was and who I wanted to be, I was realy able to break the chains and paradigms of how I was raised. Let me be clear - it wasn't about simply committing that I would do better with my own kids, it was about committing to do better with myself; after that, doing better with the kids became easy because I was no longer burdened with my own baggage.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
JJ
The whole New York Times Sunday magazine today is about various individual "identity" issues with education, from family background to sexual orientation. One big piece is about experimenting with how little kids learn to control their own cognitive function, how they learn to learn from play basically. There's a lot about all the failed attempts we've made as parents and teachers to condition them like animals, training their self-control with gold stars and scolding, time-outs and praise. The upshot is that children develop it for themselves from imaginative play, where they assume various roles and follow the "rules" of that role so the game can be played.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/27/magazine/27tools-t.html
This might not appeal to most folks the same way it does to me as an academic, but any unschooler is likely to find some confidence-building and useful ideas or insights for their own situations, and maybe you have someone in your life like a schoolteacher sister or a disapproving neighbor you can give it to, too!
It occurred to me that we were very big into power of story through movies, books, television, musical theatre characters and then later, videogames and other crossovers for the same characters and stories. Most of our humor and game-playing as a family was centered on following the rules of whatever roles were were playing out, from the time Dad would be Eeyore or a Wild Thing and the child would be Christopher Robin or Pooh or Max, to throwing Les Miz and Ragtime dialogue and songs back and forth as we do now, with two teens.
I can remember acting out the Wizard of Oz with the neighborhood kids in Allison Hall's front yard, scene to scene. We all knew all the parts from the annual tv airing of it, and took turns in different roles. This was our favorite thing, the only reason I remember her name or those kids. I guess it must have been good for us even though we sure never got it at school . . .
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/27/magazine/27tools-t.html
This might not appeal to most folks the same way it does to me as an academic, but any unschooler is likely to find some confidence-building and useful ideas or insights for their own situations, and maybe you have someone in your life like a schoolteacher sister or a disapproving neighbor you can give it to, too!
It occurred to me that we were very big into power of story through movies, books, television, musical theatre characters and then later, videogames and other crossovers for the same characters and stories. Most of our humor and game-playing as a family was centered on following the rules of whatever roles were were playing out, from the time Dad would be Eeyore or a Wild Thing and the child would be Christopher Robin or Pooh or Max, to throwing Les Miz and Ragtime dialogue and songs back and forth as we do now, with two teens.
I can remember acting out the Wizard of Oz with the neighborhood kids in Allison Hall's front yard, scene to scene. We all knew all the parts from the annual tv airing of it, and took turns in different roles. This was our favorite thing, the only reason I remember her name or those kids. I guess it must have been good for us even though we sure never got it at school . . .
Umm Ilyas
Connie wrote:
Absentee parents aren't there. As an unschooling parent, you will be there.
As a kid, my parents bounced back and forth between being overly controlling
and being absentee. An absentee parent doesn't listen to what their children
have to say. An absentee parent is never there. To keep from being an
absentee parent, you build trust between you and your children. You let them
know that they can come to you for ANYTHING without fear. I am always in the
background and my kids know that I am here if they want guidance or have a
question or just need a hug. An unschooling parent makes suggestions and
provides opportunities for children but is okay if the child rejects those
suggestions and opportunities. You become very aware of your children and
what they like and dislike and provide opportunities accordingly.
Okaaay. That's adding some clarity to this issue for me.
I think I'm at a crossroad right now with the kids.
For example, I feel like I've trained them (well, the eldest) to always look to me or my husband for permission before doing anything. "Always ask before you open the fridge and get a snack". After reading John Holt and other works and really THINKING about it, I realized just how silly that is. Why shouldn't a person open the fridge and get themselves a snack if they are hungry? Plus, I find it difficult to be inundated with permission requests all day long.
As we make this transition I feel like I'm sending mixed signals. "Always ask permission! ....umm, except now you don't have to." I'm confused, they're confused.
LOL. Someone tell me it eventually rights itself!
-Darcy
________________________________
From: "otherstar@..." <otherstar@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Sunday, September 27, 2009 11:28:37 AM
Subject: RE: [unschoolingbasics] Making the transition
using punitive, controlling parenting. But in practice I'm finding it very
hard. For those of you who were raised in more controlling, punitive
families (by this I mean mainstream parenting, not necessarily what most
would define as abuse), how did you make the transition? Did it come
naturally? Or was it a struggle? How do you draw the line between
non-controlling, non-punitive relationship and absentee parenting? <<<<
If you were raised in a controlling and punitive family, the easiest way to
transition is to remember how it felt to constantly be controlled and
coerced. You may slip a lot in the beginning but as you train yourself to
think of how you felt as a kid then it becomes a lot easier. I still
struggle with it but not because I don't understand it. I struggle with it
because the mainstream way is really easy. It doesn't take near as much
energy to sit around barking orders as it does to stop and think about what
you are doing.
Absentee parents aren't there. As an unschooling parent, you will be there.
As a kid, my parents bounced back and forth between being overly controlling
and being absentee. An absentee parent doesn't listen to what their children
have to say. An absentee parent is never there. To keep from being an
absentee parent, you build trust between you and your children. You let them
know that they can come to you for ANYTHING without fear. I am always in the
background and my kids know that I am here if they want guidance or have a
question or just need a hug. An unschooling parent makes suggestions and
provides opportunities for children but is okay if the child rejects those
suggestions and opportunities. You become very aware of your children and
what they like and dislike and provide opportunities accordingly.
Connie
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Absentee parents aren't there. As an unschooling parent, you will be there.
As a kid, my parents bounced back and forth between being overly controlling
and being absentee. An absentee parent doesn't listen to what their children
have to say. An absentee parent is never there. To keep from being an
absentee parent, you build trust between you and your children. You let them
know that they can come to you for ANYTHING without fear. I am always in the
background and my kids know that I am here if they want guidance or have a
question or just need a hug. An unschooling parent makes suggestions and
provides opportunities for children but is okay if the child rejects those
suggestions and opportunities. You become very aware of your children and
what they like and dislike and provide opportunities accordingly.
Okaaay. That's adding some clarity to this issue for me.
I think I'm at a crossroad right now with the kids.
For example, I feel like I've trained them (well, the eldest) to always look to me or my husband for permission before doing anything. "Always ask before you open the fridge and get a snack". After reading John Holt and other works and really THINKING about it, I realized just how silly that is. Why shouldn't a person open the fridge and get themselves a snack if they are hungry? Plus, I find it difficult to be inundated with permission requests all day long.
As we make this transition I feel like I'm sending mixed signals. "Always ask permission! ....umm, except now you don't have to." I'm confused, they're confused.
LOL. Someone tell me it eventually rights itself!
-Darcy
________________________________
From: "otherstar@..." <otherstar@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Sunday, September 27, 2009 11:28:37 AM
Subject: RE: [unschoolingbasics] Making the transition
>>> My biggest struggle right now is not so much the 'academic' side ofunschooling, but the parenting aspect. Rationally, I am on board with NOT
using punitive, controlling parenting. But in practice I'm finding it very
hard. For those of you who were raised in more controlling, punitive
families (by this I mean mainstream parenting, not necessarily what most
would define as abuse), how did you make the transition? Did it come
naturally? Or was it a struggle? How do you draw the line between
non-controlling, non-punitive relationship and absentee parenting? <<<<
If you were raised in a controlling and punitive family, the easiest way to
transition is to remember how it felt to constantly be controlled and
coerced. You may slip a lot in the beginning but as you train yourself to
think of how you felt as a kid then it becomes a lot easier. I still
struggle with it but not because I don't understand it. I struggle with it
because the mainstream way is really easy. It doesn't take near as much
energy to sit around barking orders as it does to stop and think about what
you are doing.
Absentee parents aren't there. As an unschooling parent, you will be there.
As a kid, my parents bounced back and forth between being overly controlling
and being absentee. An absentee parent doesn't listen to what their children
have to say. An absentee parent is never there. To keep from being an
absentee parent, you build trust between you and your children. You let them
know that they can come to you for ANYTHING without fear. I am always in the
background and my kids know that I am here if they want guidance or have a
question or just need a hug. An unschooling parent makes suggestions and
provides opportunities for children but is okay if the child rejects those
suggestions and opportunities. You become very aware of your children and
what they like and dislike and provide opportunities accordingly.
Connie
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jenna Robertson
It goes back to "just say 'yes' more." We are in transition ourselves (I've recently decided that life is just one big transition from gestation to death so I should "just get over it!" because I get so hung up on "well, we're all in transition right now....") and I found that when we tried to explain to our girls (ages 8,10,almost 13) that we were going to be changing some of our parenting it stressed them because they were then trying to figure out how we would respond now, or they would feel the need to point our our errors "That's being conditional!" which was at times helpful for them and for us, but doesn't need to be their job all the time, or they needed to test the new limits (which made it even more challenging to be the calm rational parent I want to be!)
Now I just try and say "yes" without drawing attention to the difference or the reasons. "Can I play w/ Madi after dinner?" "Yes", "Can we watch another episode on Netflix before bed?" "Yes"
Eventually they'll stop asking so often and eventually you'll be really good at saying yes (I'm still working on it, but I am getting better! )
Jenna
"If I had influence with the good fairy who is supposed to preside over the christening of all children, I would ask that her gift to each child in the world be a sense of wonder so indestructible that it would last throughout life."
- Rachel Carson
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Now I just try and say "yes" without drawing attention to the difference or the reasons. "Can I play w/ Madi after dinner?" "Yes", "Can we watch another episode on Netflix before bed?" "Yes"
Eventually they'll stop asking so often and eventually you'll be really good at saying yes (I'm still working on it, but I am getting better! )
Jenna
"If I had influence with the good fairy who is supposed to preside over the christening of all children, I would ask that her gift to each child in the world be a sense of wonder so indestructible that it would last throughout life."
- Rachel Carson
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Alan
***How do you draw the line between non-controlling, non-punitive relationship and absentee parenting?***
There is no line to draw because being non-punitive is not in proximity to absentee parenting.
That description seems to suggest that the less a parent controls or punishes, the less present that parent is, and so it is just a matter of reducing the punishment just enough but not too much.
But really, the opposite is true in practice. When you don't control or punish, you need to be more present to help your children and be their partner in learning about how to get along in the world.
Parents who control and punish tend to wrongly believe they don't need to be present. They rely on rules and the threat of punishment rather than being right there with their children ready to help.
Alan
There is no line to draw because being non-punitive is not in proximity to absentee parenting.
That description seems to suggest that the less a parent controls or punishes, the less present that parent is, and so it is just a matter of reducing the punishment just enough but not too much.
But really, the opposite is true in practice. When you don't control or punish, you need to be more present to help your children and be their partner in learning about how to get along in the world.
Parents who control and punish tend to wrongly believe they don't need to be present. They rely on rules and the threat of punishment rather than being right there with their children ready to help.
Alan
plaidpanties666
--- In [email protected], Umm Ilyas <cuddlefishy@...> wrote:
I struggled to transition to unschooling in the parenting department. It helped Me to find ways to keep busy in the same space as my kids, things I could put down easily without getting frustrated. That let me be present more and observe more - start to learn what my kids really needed. I also transitioned away from "discipline" by means of working on improving my parenting skills: being more proactive, asking my self "why not?" and learning to say "yes" more, and in more ways, so there wasn't a "need" to discipline. That was kind of amazing to me, that I was really using discipline as a substitute for better skills. I've seen that same process with my partner, too. The more his skills improved, the less he resorted to discipline. There ARE more options! It just takes time and practice to be used to seeing them consistently, and most of all proactively.
That's one of the reasons unschoolers sometimes struggle with questions like "what do you do when xyz happens." Soooooo much of what makes unschooling different is making xyz a non-issue in the first place. There's more thinking ahead - a Lot more thinking ahead. I'm seeing this a lot right now as one of the kids who plays with Mo has very "conventional" AP parents. Very loving and supportive, but they also parent by reacting to kids. I've started asking for more notice when they want to come play so *I* can think ahead about what the kids need, and be ready, not stuck reacting under stress.
One of the things I used to do with Ray, when he was younger, was to check in with other adults and make sure they weren't feeling overwhelmed. If they were - or seemed to be - I'd do whatever I could to gently extricate Ray, either offer to play, or suggest its time to leave, or whatever.
I'm really active about making sure my kids aren't impacting the people and places around them in negative ways - I stay pretty close to Mo in any new situation until I'm confident she has a good grasp of the boundaries, and with Ray I used to stick to him like glue or make sure another adult was doing so. In either case, the important thing has been that I'm Not "supervising" I'm there as a friend and helper. That's important.
I don't assume other adults have the skills or confidence to do this. One of the things I model is knowing when to move on. I don't necessarily have to explain why - with Ray that was sometimes helpful, but not so much with Mo.
---Meredith (Mo 8, Ray 16)
> For those of you who were raised in more controlling, punitive families (by this I mean mainstream parenting, not necessarily what most would define as abuse), how did you make the transition? Did it come naturally? Or was it a struggle? How do you draw the line between non-controlling, non-punitive relationship and absentee parenting?******************
I struggled to transition to unschooling in the parenting department. It helped Me to find ways to keep busy in the same space as my kids, things I could put down easily without getting frustrated. That let me be present more and observe more - start to learn what my kids really needed. I also transitioned away from "discipline" by means of working on improving my parenting skills: being more proactive, asking my self "why not?" and learning to say "yes" more, and in more ways, so there wasn't a "need" to discipline. That was kind of amazing to me, that I was really using discipline as a substitute for better skills. I've seen that same process with my partner, too. The more his skills improved, the less he resorted to discipline. There ARE more options! It just takes time and practice to be used to seeing them consistently, and most of all proactively.
That's one of the reasons unschoolers sometimes struggle with questions like "what do you do when xyz happens." Soooooo much of what makes unschooling different is making xyz a non-issue in the first place. There's more thinking ahead - a Lot more thinking ahead. I'm seeing this a lot right now as one of the kids who plays with Mo has very "conventional" AP parents. Very loving and supportive, but they also parent by reacting to kids. I've started asking for more notice when they want to come play so *I* can think ahead about what the kids need, and be ready, not stuck reacting under stress.
>>> One thing I wonder - when your children interact with other adults, do you place the responsibility for drawing personal boundaries on the other adult? For example, my oldest will talk the ear off a brass monkey. Seriousely. And when he 'catches' an unsuspecting adult to chat with, it can go on and on and on ....*************************
One of the things I used to do with Ray, when he was younger, was to check in with other adults and make sure they weren't feeling overwhelmed. If they were - or seemed to be - I'd do whatever I could to gently extricate Ray, either offer to play, or suggest its time to leave, or whatever.
I'm really active about making sure my kids aren't impacting the people and places around them in negative ways - I stay pretty close to Mo in any new situation until I'm confident she has a good grasp of the boundaries, and with Ray I used to stick to him like glue or make sure another adult was doing so. In either case, the important thing has been that I'm Not "supervising" I'm there as a friend and helper. That's important.
>>But other times I think, no, let's just let things run their natural course. If the adult wants to get out of the converstation, the adult can say "well, gotta go now!"*************************
I don't assume other adults have the skills or confidence to do this. One of the things I model is knowing when to move on. I don't necessarily have to explain why - with Ray that was sometimes helpful, but not so much with Mo.
---Meredith (Mo 8, Ray 16)
Joyce Fetteroll
On Sep 27, 2009, at 1:12 PM, Umm Ilyas wrote:
disappear. If there's just one of something left, it's courteous to
ask if it's being saved for something.
Just saying yes more is usually the best advice. For this specific
thing, you might think about sitting everyone down and apologizing
for being a food Nazi ;-) Let them know it sounded good in theory but
you realize it doesn't make sense now. If they're hungry they should
be able to get food. Suggest it's a good idea if there's one of
something left that it would be polite to ask if it's claimed by
someone. Suggest it's a good idea if they happen to notice it's close
to dinner to ask, that way you can let them know how far off dinner
is and what you're having so they can decide.
Those aren't new rules! They're guidelines to help them make more
informed decisions. It's not up to them to ask before they take the
last something. They'll forget sometimes. It's up to you to protect
any ingredients you're planning on using. It's polite to keep an eye
out for hungry kids as dinner is approaching. You might put out a
monkey platter late in the day so they don't get to the starvation
point half hour before dinner.
Here's a page of monkey platters:
http://sandradodd.com/monkeyplatters/
Click the link for explanations.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> As we make this transition I feel like I'm sending mixed signals.Actually it's polite if they ask, so don't expect the asking to
> "Always ask permission! ....umm, except now you don't have to." I'm
> confused, they're confused.
>
> LOL. Someone tell me it eventually rights itself!
disappear. If there's just one of something left, it's courteous to
ask if it's being saved for something.
Just saying yes more is usually the best advice. For this specific
thing, you might think about sitting everyone down and apologizing
for being a food Nazi ;-) Let them know it sounded good in theory but
you realize it doesn't make sense now. If they're hungry they should
be able to get food. Suggest it's a good idea if there's one of
something left that it would be polite to ask if it's claimed by
someone. Suggest it's a good idea if they happen to notice it's close
to dinner to ask, that way you can let them know how far off dinner
is and what you're having so they can decide.
Those aren't new rules! They're guidelines to help them make more
informed decisions. It's not up to them to ask before they take the
last something. They'll forget sometimes. It's up to you to protect
any ingredients you're planning on using. It's polite to keep an eye
out for hungry kids as dinner is approaching. You might put out a
monkey platter late in the day so they don't get to the starvation
point half hour before dinner.
Here's a page of monkey platters:
http://sandradodd.com/monkeyplatters/
Click the link for explanations.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Professional Parenting
Yesterday, after my teens drained the hot water tank by each taking a 20 minute shower, and I had to be somewhere and needed a quick three minute shower, but found only cold water left, we had a talk on politeness about asking if anyone needs to get out of the house on a deadline before they drain the tank. They were quite agreeable about the new recommendation.
Judy Arnall
Parenting Speaker, Trainer and Author of Canadian Bestseller:
Discipline Without Distress: 135 tools for raising caring,
Responsible children without time-out, spanking, punishment or bribery
Website www.professionalparenting.ca
Speaker Bio: http://bureau.espeakers.com/caps/speaker.php?sid=10763&showreturntoresults=true
Tele: (403) 714-6766
Email jarnall@...
Parenting is the best job in the world and the hardest! If you would like a daily parenting tip/strategy/affirmation/support
please follow me www.twitter.com/JudyArnall
or my Amazon Blog http://www.amazon.com/gp/blog/A1R7S822XSIVBA/ref=cm_blog_dp_artist_blog
or my Youtube Channel www.youtube.com/parentproblemsolver
or facebook http://profile.to/judyarnall
or linked-in www.linkedin.com/in/judyarnall
Judy Arnall
Parenting Speaker, Trainer and Author of Canadian Bestseller:
Discipline Without Distress: 135 tools for raising caring,
Responsible children without time-out, spanking, punishment or bribery
Website www.professionalparenting.ca
Speaker Bio: http://bureau.espeakers.com/caps/speaker.php?sid=10763&showreturntoresults=true
Tele: (403) 714-6766
Email jarnall@...
Parenting is the best job in the world and the hardest! If you would like a daily parenting tip/strategy/affirmation/support
please follow me www.twitter.com/JudyArnall
or my Amazon Blog http://www.amazon.com/gp/blog/A1R7S822XSIVBA/ref=cm_blog_dp_artist_blog
or my Youtube Channel www.youtube.com/parentproblemsolver
or facebook http://profile.to/judyarnall
or linked-in www.linkedin.com/in/judyarnall
----- Original Message -----
From: Joyce Fetteroll
To: [email protected]
Sent: Monday, September 28, 2009 4:28 AM
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Making the transition
On Sep 27, 2009, at 1:12 PM, Umm Ilyas wrote:
> As we make this transition I feel like I'm sending mixed signals.
> "Always ask permission! ....umm, except now you don't have to." I'm
> confused, they're confused.
>
> LOL. Someone tell me it eventually rights itself!
Actually it's polite if they ask, so don't expect the asking to
disappear. If there's just one of something left, it's courteous to
ask if it's being saved for something.
Just saying yes more is usually the best advice. For this specific
thing, you might think about sitting everyone down and apologizing
for being a food Nazi ;-) Let them know it sounded good in theory but
you realize it doesn't make sense now. If they're hungry they should
be able to get food. Suggest it's a good idea if there's one of
something left that it would be polite to ask if it's claimed by
someone. Suggest it's a good idea if they happen to notice it's close
to dinner to ask, that way you can let them know how far off dinner
is and what you're having so they can decide.
Those aren't new rules! They're guidelines to help them make more
informed decisions. It's not up to them to ask before they take the
last something. They'll forget sometimes. It's up to you to protect
any ingredients you're planning on using. It's polite to keep an eye
out for hungry kids as dinner is approaching. You might put out a
monkey platter late in the day so they don't get to the starvation
point half hour before dinner.
Here's a page of monkey platters:
http://sandradodd.com/monkeyplatters/
Click the link for explanations.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
mizelenius
--- In [email protected], Jeff Sabo <freeboysdad@...> wrote:
What are my options? So far, one thing I've done is try to remove toys so that it is easier to clean, but DH complains that if I take out more they won't have anything left. (My theory is, though, less is more.) One of their favorite activities is to make their own toys out of paper. I used to let them have unlimited access to paper, but that ended up with paper everywhere. For two reasons, this wasn't working . . .one, I (sadly) couldn't afford this (a lot of the paper was damaged in some way by being on the floor ans such, so they would refuse to use it, meaning a lot of waste) and two, again, they would not want to be in the room when it was that messy.
My children are very young (7, 4, and 2) so I don't know how to make this whole thing win-win. I would love to say that I'd clean the room regularly, and I try, but that isn't working either. It's only going to get harder, since I am expecting another baby in November and have just started a new job (working from home and on my own schedule at least).
It's the same with the dishes . . .my oldest DD is in the habit of bringing her dish to the sink, and I admit that it helps a lot. I certainly do not have a spotless house, but I find that when everyone contributes to the things that need to get done, everyone is happier overall. For example, when I can keep up with the dishes, when we get home from wherever and everyone is hungry, I can get everyone fed much faster when I am not trying to get food AND manage the dishes. Ditto with laundry . . .for example, my DD was complaining that she did not have enough clean PJs or shirts, and I had just done a load of the kids' laundry . . .but she didn't put them in the hamper like we had asked her to (this is a standing request). I had not seen the dirty items on the floor to wash them, or I would have. So, she didn't have the clothes she wanted.
I am always looking for ways that make everything more efficient so that, in the end, there is less work. I am not looking for perfection, but I do look for efficiency since, in the end, we are limited in both time and money.
I'm really interested in hearing what others have to say about this because I'm not sure at all how other people, esp. in slightly larger families, balance it all.
Thanks!
Elena
>Jeff, I am glad you brought this up. The playroom one is a perfect example of something I struggle with. If the kids have a messy playroom, I don't care . . .EXCEPT that then they do not want to use it or be in it. They avoid it when it is messy. When it's clean, they go in an enjoy it, and remark that it looks so nice because it is clean.
> Cuddlfishy wrote: ***How do you draw the line between non-controlling, non-punitive relationship and absentee parenting?***
>
> From a strict unschooling view, I try to look at our guidelines in one of two buckets - arbitrary and not arbitrary. An arbitrary guideline might be something like a demand for a cleaned toy room or to have dirty dishes returned to the sink immediately after use - in other words, a guideline that has to do with OUR need to have OUR KIDS conform to something WE WANT. A non-arbitrary guideline might be something like brandishing a knife in a threatening manner, or shooting golf balls at a picture window, for example. These are things that would create HARM or DANGER, for our kids or others.
What are my options? So far, one thing I've done is try to remove toys so that it is easier to clean, but DH complains that if I take out more they won't have anything left. (My theory is, though, less is more.) One of their favorite activities is to make their own toys out of paper. I used to let them have unlimited access to paper, but that ended up with paper everywhere. For two reasons, this wasn't working . . .one, I (sadly) couldn't afford this (a lot of the paper was damaged in some way by being on the floor ans such, so they would refuse to use it, meaning a lot of waste) and two, again, they would not want to be in the room when it was that messy.
My children are very young (7, 4, and 2) so I don't know how to make this whole thing win-win. I would love to say that I'd clean the room regularly, and I try, but that isn't working either. It's only going to get harder, since I am expecting another baby in November and have just started a new job (working from home and on my own schedule at least).
It's the same with the dishes . . .my oldest DD is in the habit of bringing her dish to the sink, and I admit that it helps a lot. I certainly do not have a spotless house, but I find that when everyone contributes to the things that need to get done, everyone is happier overall. For example, when I can keep up with the dishes, when we get home from wherever and everyone is hungry, I can get everyone fed much faster when I am not trying to get food AND manage the dishes. Ditto with laundry . . .for example, my DD was complaining that she did not have enough clean PJs or shirts, and I had just done a load of the kids' laundry . . .but she didn't put them in the hamper like we had asked her to (this is a standing request). I had not seen the dirty items on the floor to wash them, or I would have. So, she didn't have the clothes she wanted.
I am always looking for ways that make everything more efficient so that, in the end, there is less work. I am not looking for perfection, but I do look for efficiency since, in the end, we are limited in both time and money.
I'm really interested in hearing what others have to say about this because I'm not sure at all how other people, esp. in slightly larger families, balance it all.
Thanks!
Elena
kazglc
Jeff Sabo said...
"
Karen
"
> But this has become very rare since we started to unschool, and I think that the basic reason for that is because unschooling for us isn't just about education & learning, and it's not only about mindful and respectful parenting - it's about mindful and respectful living, with our kids, with each other, with friends/family/others, with all we come in contact with. But most importantly, for all of that to work we had to learn to be respectful and mindful of ourselves. Once I decided to respect who I was and who I wanted to be, I was realy able to break the chains and paradigms of how I was raised. Let me be clear - it wasn't about simply committing that I would do better with my own kids, it was about committing to do better with myself; after that, doing better with the kids became easy because I was no longer burdened with my own baggage. "Something about what you're saying is really significant but i cant quite get my head round it - is there anything i can read or any other way i can better understand what you are saying about respecting who you are and being mindful of ourselves with a view to then that automatically extending to others. I'm about 6mths in trying to get my head around some of the mindful parenting stuff as specific to Radical unschooling (but have always been of an AP, gentle parenting perspective, RU is taking it all a step further for me) - i agree with what is discussed on these lists but struggle to actually 'get there' somehow and seem to be just beating myself up all the time for not being good enough.
Karen
gruvystarchild
~~i agree with what is discussed on these lists but struggle to actually 'get there' somehow and seem to be just beating myself up all the time for not being good enough.~~
I really believe that our logic gets way ahead of our emotional growth sometimes. What is familiar and ingrained is easier! We can understand a new concept/behavior and decide it's healthier before our patterns and reactions can be different.
That's ok. Each of us can only be right where we ARE. Simple right?:)
Accepting where we are today doesn't mean we aren't learning and growing. Actually, there is MUCH growth in being with what IS.
Have you read "wherever you go there you are" by Jon Kabat-Zinn? I highly recommend it.
I think comparing ourselves to other parents or wanting to be at some imaginary level in life all relates back to school-think. Most of us were judged and graded for a good portion of our lives...it's hard to let that go and just BE with ourselves. yk?
There is no "there" to get to. Each and every moment is new. You can just try to make the very best choice in the next moment with your child. As the moments get better, so do the days and weeks. So all you need to do is make this moment the very best it can be. That's all.
Ren
radicalunschooling.blogspot.com
I really believe that our logic gets way ahead of our emotional growth sometimes. What is familiar and ingrained is easier! We can understand a new concept/behavior and decide it's healthier before our patterns and reactions can be different.
That's ok. Each of us can only be right where we ARE. Simple right?:)
Accepting where we are today doesn't mean we aren't learning and growing. Actually, there is MUCH growth in being with what IS.
Have you read "wherever you go there you are" by Jon Kabat-Zinn? I highly recommend it.
I think comparing ourselves to other parents or wanting to be at some imaginary level in life all relates back to school-think. Most of us were judged and graded for a good portion of our lives...it's hard to let that go and just BE with ourselves. yk?
There is no "there" to get to. Each and every moment is new. You can just try to make the very best choice in the next moment with your child. As the moments get better, so do the days and weeks. So all you need to do is make this moment the very best it can be. That's all.
Ren
radicalunschooling.blogspot.com
plaidpanties666
--- In [email protected], "mizelenius" <mizelenius@...> wrote:
In what way is it not working? That's not clear. Mo used to cut paper with a passion, day in and out, and I used a snow shovel as a dust pan for awhile - no kidding! I'd sweep up a pile, pull out anything I wanted to save (legos, doll clothes, lost socks...), and scoop the rest away. I always clean with a laundry basket handy for mislaid clothes, too. I've never gotten rid of toys without Mo's agreement - they are her possessions, not mine.
You've certainly taken a lot on yourself! Is your dh willing/able to do more to help you? I understand about kids having a hard time bc they can't find things - are there clear places to put things away? That can make a big difference, to organize things so that its clear where everything goes - makes cleaning up more obvious and less overwhelming.
Do you have finger foods ready at all times for the kids? I've found that helps with cooking a whole lot, since the kids aren't necessarily interested in sitting down for a meal (unless they want to socialize). It can be really convenient to prep a bunch of snacks all at once 1-2 times a week - cut up veggies, make up some dips, pop a bunch of popcorn, etc. so there are always plenty of options.
When one of my kids consistently doesn't do something I've asked, I assume there's a reason - and very often the reason is that I've asked something my kid isn't developmentally ready to do. Putting clothes in the hamper every time is a great example. Kids are soooo busy doing the things they need to do - learning! that little things like that fall off their radar easily. They aren't ready to hold laundry and running and eating and building and cutting and finding out all in their minds at once. That comes later - teens or twenties. So all you're doing is creating frustration, in yourself because you have an expectation that won't be met (consistently without reminders) for many years, and in your kids who quickly get tired of the same information over and over (blah blah blah blah, are you listnening?).
For unschooling to work, it helps to step away from the idea of balance. Life isn't balanced. Life is messy and involved. Some things balance out over the course of a life, but not always, and that's okay. Love doesn't have to be balanced, in fact, its better when its completely Unbalanced - love unconditionally! I don't balance my kindness or generosity like a checkbook, I give as much as I can, whenever I can.
As crazy as it sounds, a desire for efficiency may be part of your problem. I know, most housekeeping advice revolves around streamlining processes, but I think you've made a wrong term in trying to get your kids on board with that. They are children! Childhood is not, by nature, efficient. Its messy and involved. Kids are messy and involved. They are busy living life to the fullest. Trying to get them to be more efficient denies their very nature. Let them be children. Invite them to help, but don't expect it. They will help when and how they can - they Want to help you! But it will be on their own terms for many years to come.
---Meredith (Mo 8, Ray 16)
>> My children are very young (7, 4, and 2) so I don't know how to make this whole thing win-win. I would love to say that I'd clean the room regularly, and I try, but that isn't working either.**********************
In what way is it not working? That's not clear. Mo used to cut paper with a passion, day in and out, and I used a snow shovel as a dust pan for awhile - no kidding! I'd sweep up a pile, pull out anything I wanted to save (legos, doll clothes, lost socks...), and scoop the rest away. I always clean with a laundry basket handy for mislaid clothes, too. I've never gotten rid of toys without Mo's agreement - they are her possessions, not mine.
>>It's only going to get harder, since I am expecting another baby in November and have just started a new job (working from home and on my own schedule at least).************************
You've certainly taken a lot on yourself! Is your dh willing/able to do more to help you? I understand about kids having a hard time bc they can't find things - are there clear places to put things away? That can make a big difference, to organize things so that its clear where everything goes - makes cleaning up more obvious and less overwhelming.
>> For example, when I can keep up with the dishes, when we get home from wherever and everyone is hungry, I can get everyone fed much faster********************
Do you have finger foods ready at all times for the kids? I've found that helps with cooking a whole lot, since the kids aren't necessarily interested in sitting down for a meal (unless they want to socialize). It can be really convenient to prep a bunch of snacks all at once 1-2 times a week - cut up veggies, make up some dips, pop a bunch of popcorn, etc. so there are always plenty of options.
>>Ditto with laundry . . .for example, my DD was complaining that she did not have enough clean PJs or shirts, and I had just done a load of the kids' laundry . . .but she didn't put them in the hamper like we had asked her to (this is a standing request).*************************
When one of my kids consistently doesn't do something I've asked, I assume there's a reason - and very often the reason is that I've asked something my kid isn't developmentally ready to do. Putting clothes in the hamper every time is a great example. Kids are soooo busy doing the things they need to do - learning! that little things like that fall off their radar easily. They aren't ready to hold laundry and running and eating and building and cutting and finding out all in their minds at once. That comes later - teens or twenties. So all you're doing is creating frustration, in yourself because you have an expectation that won't be met (consistently without reminders) for many years, and in your kids who quickly get tired of the same information over and over (blah blah blah blah, are you listnening?).
> I'm really interested in hearing what others have to say about this because I'm not sure at all how other people, esp. in slightly larger families, balance it all.*************************
For unschooling to work, it helps to step away from the idea of balance. Life isn't balanced. Life is messy and involved. Some things balance out over the course of a life, but not always, and that's okay. Love doesn't have to be balanced, in fact, its better when its completely Unbalanced - love unconditionally! I don't balance my kindness or generosity like a checkbook, I give as much as I can, whenever I can.
As crazy as it sounds, a desire for efficiency may be part of your problem. I know, most housekeeping advice revolves around streamlining processes, but I think you've made a wrong term in trying to get your kids on board with that. They are children! Childhood is not, by nature, efficient. Its messy and involved. Kids are messy and involved. They are busy living life to the fullest. Trying to get them to be more efficient denies their very nature. Let them be children. Invite them to help, but don't expect it. They will help when and how they can - they Want to help you! But it will be on their own terms for many years to come.
---Meredith (Mo 8, Ray 16)
mizelenius
--- In [email protected], "plaidpanties666" <meredith@...> wrote:
It's not working because when it's messy, they don't want to work in there (actually, to a certain degree, they can't because there isn't any room). Three, soon to be four young children ages 7 and under = a lot of mess. We have a small house! And, again, I do clean, but they'd rather me NOT clean. They'd rather me do x, y, or z, but I can't do some of what they want because there is no room. So, then that takes time, and the momentum is gone.
I actually didn't take a lot on myself just "because." Like many people in the current economy, we need the money, which is why I got a job. We have looked at a million ways to save money, but there is a point where one simply needs more income. And the pregnancy- a surprise. And yes, everything has its place, everything is organized. The only way to make it easier would be to get rid of most toys with little pieces, but how fair would that be? Remember, I have three young children close in age. And my DH helping more? No.
I am not upset that my DD does not usually put her laundry in the hamper. However, the fact remains, that someone has to find her dirty clothes and wash them. I was wondering how other people handle this, esp., like I said with several young children.
I also notice that my children prefer it when things are organized. They play far more and at a deeper level when things are organized. They create more when they have their materials easily accessible and a place to work. They are happier when their needs are met quickly because I am organized. I have little routines built into the day that make things better . . .but I still have a long way to go, and as I said, it's only going to get harder, at least for a few years.
>Response:
> --- In [email protected], "mizelenius" <mizelenius@> wrote:
> >> My children are very young (7, 4, and 2) so I don't know how to make this whole thing win-win. I would love to say that I'd clean the room regularly, and I try, but that isn't working either.
> **********************
>
> In what way is it not working? That's not clear. Mo used to cut paper with a passion, day in and out, and I used a snow shovel as a dust pan for awhile - no kidding! I'd sweep up a pile, pull out anything I wanted to save (legos, doll clothes, lost socks...), and scoop the rest away. I always clean with a laundry basket handy for mislaid clothes, too. I've never gotten rid of toys without Mo's agreement - they are her possessions, not mine.
It's not working because when it's messy, they don't want to work in there (actually, to a certain degree, they can't because there isn't any room). Three, soon to be four young children ages 7 and under = a lot of mess. We have a small house! And, again, I do clean, but they'd rather me NOT clean. They'd rather me do x, y, or z, but I can't do some of what they want because there is no room. So, then that takes time, and the momentum is gone.
>Response:
> >>It's only going to get harder, since I am expecting another baby in November and have just started a new job (working from home and on my own schedule at least).
> ************************
>
> You've certainly taken a lot on yourself! Is your dh willing/able to do more to help you? I understand about kids having a hard time bc they can't find things - are there clear places to put things away? That can make a big difference, to organize things so that its clear where everything goes - makes cleaning up more obvious and less overwhelming.
I actually didn't take a lot on myself just "because." Like many people in the current economy, we need the money, which is why I got a job. We have looked at a million ways to save money, but there is a point where one simply needs more income. And the pregnancy- a surprise. And yes, everything has its place, everything is organized. The only way to make it easier would be to get rid of most toys with little pieces, but how fair would that be? Remember, I have three young children close in age. And my DH helping more? No.
> >> For example, when I can keep up with the dishes, when we get home from wherever and everyone is hungry, I can get everyone fed much fasterNo, I do not have finger foods handy because, save for crackers, there aren't any they'd eat. They don't like raw veggies. Won't eat fruit unless I actually put it on the table (won't seek it out when it's been available). And, they actually do like sitting down for a meal. They prefer hot food. What I've noticed, too, is that for them, me getting food ready for them is part of how they want attention . . .in other words, they feel more "cared for" when I get them food. For example, we have water ready/easy to get for them at all times, but somehow it's just more special for them if I get it.
> ********************
>
> Do you have finger foods ready at all times for the kids? I've found that helps with cooking a whole lot, since the kids aren't necessarily interested in sitting down for a meal (unless they want to socialize). It can be really convenient to prep a bunch of snacks all at once 1-2 times a week - cut up veggies, make up some dips, pop a bunch of popcorn, etc. so there are always plenty of options.
>Response:
> >>Ditto with laundry . . .for example, my DD was complaining that she did not have enough clean PJs or shirts, and I had just done a load of the kids' laundry . . .but she didn't put them in the hamper like we had asked her to (this is a standing request).
> *************************
>
> When one of my kids consistently doesn't do something I've asked, I assume there's a reason - and very often the reason is that I've asked something my kid isn't developmentally ready to do. Putting clothes in the hamper every time is a great example. Kids are soooo busy doing the things they need to do - learning! that little things like that fall off their radar easily. They aren't ready to hold laundry and running and eating and building and cutting and finding out all in their minds at once. That comes later - teens or twenties. So all you're doing is creating frustration, in yourself because you have an expectation that won't be met (consistently without reminders) for many years, and in your kids who quickly get tired of the same information over and over (blah blah blah blah, are you listnening?).
I am not upset that my DD does not usually put her laundry in the hamper. However, the fact remains, that someone has to find her dirty clothes and wash them. I was wondering how other people handle this, esp., like I said with several young children.
> > I'm really interested in hearing what others have to say about this because I'm not sure at all how other people, esp. in slightly larger families, balance it all.Response: Oh, trust me, my life is messy and involved. But I still like the word "balance." I don't believe it is really possible, because things are always changing, but I think it is a good goal. You mention "love unconditionally." For many people, a hot meal, clean clothes, and a relatively organized living space IS a symbol of love. It shouldn't come at the expense of nagging/complaining/etc., but scrounging for food, not being able to find what you want, not even being able to walk in a room because of a mess? No, I don't think that helps anyone feel peaceful.
> *************************
>
> For unschooling to work, it helps to step away from the idea of balance. Life isn't balanced. Life is messy and involved. Some things balance out over the course of a life, but not always, and that's okay. Love doesn't have to be balanced, in fact, its better when its completely Unbalanced - love unconditionally! I don't balance my kindness or generosity like a checkbook, I give as much as I can, whenever I can.
>Response: I don't expect my children to help much (esp. not my 2 and 4 yo), though they sometimes do. (My 2 yo is actually an amazing organizer when she feels like it.) I DO expect my 7 yo to: bring her plate to the sink and put her laundry in the hamper. That's it. I don't think those two tasks will "deny her of her very nature." I never remind her about her plate (she does it automatically, and if she forgets, I don't care.) The clothes . . .I don't get mad, but I do remind, esp. when she complains that she has no clothes, that it would help if she put them in the hamper. It's like with her piano lessons . . .she chose to take them. But, her teacher expects her to practice. I expect her to practice, too, since the money for them isn't easily found. At ANY point she can stop taking lessons, though. Expectations are not a bad thing, I don't think, when there is a choice. When it comes to laundry, if she doesn't put her clothes away, then she might (not because of being punished, but just because I thought she had) have to wait longer for the clothes she wanted.
> As crazy as it sounds, a desire for efficiency may be part of your problem. I know, most housekeeping advice revolves around streamlining processes, but I think you've made a wrong term in trying to get your kids on board with that. They are children! Childhood is not, by nature, efficient. Its messy and involved. Kids are messy and involved. They are busy living life to the fullest. Trying to get them to be more efficient denies their very nature. Let them be children. Invite them to help, but don't expect it. They will help when and how they can - they Want to help you! But it will be on their own terms for many years to come.
I also notice that my children prefer it when things are organized. They play far more and at a deeper level when things are organized. They create more when they have their materials easily accessible and a place to work. They are happier when their needs are met quickly because I am organized. I have little routines built into the day that make things better . . .but I still have a long way to go, and as I said, it's only going to get harder, at least for a few years.
Joyce Fetteroll
On Sep 29, 2009, at 1:05 AM, mizelenius wrote:
Dawn Adams said:
"We don't clean up messes to have a clean house. We clean up messes
so there is room for more mess! Now I think of cleaning up after my
kids as replacing a canvas."
Rather than thinking in terms of one way to get a clean (or cleaner)
canvas, think in terms of many ways working together towards that.
Have large bins to fling things into.
Keep some toys with lots of small pieces up so you can help them.
Put down a big table cloth or rug to play on that can be picked up
and the toys poured into a bin when they're done.
Make clean up an organic part of the process. Say "Let's get this
picked up so we can do x. Sasha if you could put the big bunny back
in the bin and Misha if you could put the paper in the trash that
would be a big help."
-- Do it joyfully. If you're grumpy they'll flee. But own the task.
It's yours and you're asking for help. No thanks needs to be an
option for them.
-- Accept joyfully what help they can give. They could have been
doing something else they found more important to them, but they
chose to spend time with you helping. Show them you appreciate it :-)
-- Suggest a specific task for a child. Messes can seem overwhelming
so asking one child to pick up all the red blocks, or put the books
on the shelf will help them focus on just a little thing.
-- Turn it into a game. Don't put things in bins, throw them for
points. Set a timer and race.
That's just a few suggestions.
http://sandradodd.com/monkeyplatters/
Click on the link there for descriptions.
Rather than thinking in terms of finger foods or hot foods, think in
terms of *ways* of getting food into them. They may not need you to
cook for 30 minutes. 10 may be enough to feel cared for.
times a day rather than waiting until you're doing dishes or laundry.
It's pretty much a given that kids won't put clothes in hampers. It's
a bonus when they do! :-) Take 2 minutes to swoop through.
don't *expect* her to. If she doesn't do what you expect, she'll have
failed. So let that go.
*Appreciate* that she does. If any of them are leaving the room
without a dish, just say "Dish," in a helpful tone. Expect that they
want to help but that doing it on their own is beyond them. Help them
help.
If you haven't read "How To Talk So Kids Will Listen and Listen So
Kids Will Talk" it's got lots of good practical advice. It doesn't go
far enough into eliminating the power play, but it's a great
beginning point and the skills are very useful.
is probably annoying her because she knows. But knowing and being
able to do are two separate things. As she's taking off her clothes
she thinking about something else. That's the way brains work. At 7
the future prospects of not having clothes just don't loom large
enough to intrude on her thoughts. Accept that. Your reminders are
just telling her she's broken and wrong and needs to fix herself. But
she's perfectly normal. Age will take care of it but there's no
guarantee at what age she'll be capable of that awareness.
in the atmosphere of the house.
Better to think in terms of helping them, being their partner.
unschooling, it's better to see the point of lessons as a child
trying something out, exploring, having fun rather than progress.
There's absolutely value in the notion that if people work past the
rough parts and get better that they can have fun with the skill. But
parents and teachers can get so focused on working towards better and
the future fun that they crush the current enjoyment. The child then
equates the pressure to practice and get better with the instrument
and gets turned off.
Better in terms of life learning to have a little taste that was fun
than pressure to be better. Better to find ways to help them play in
between times (rather than practice) -- like playing with them --
than pressure to do something they don't want to. It's better to have
a little taste that wasn't fun with the child choosing to stop than
pressure past the unfun part to a future that we can't know is better.
unless they experience clean. They can't decide it's worth the effort
to straighten up if they haven't experienced a lot of both so they
can compare.
But having the skills to get from messy to clean don't come
automatically with the appreciation. When Kathryn was young -- under
10 -- my husband and I would fold laundry and she'd come to be with
us. If we asked her if she'd like to fold wash cloths or towels or
sort socks it was overwhelming to her. It seemed such a simple task!
It didn't seem an unreasonable expectation. But something about the
way her brain was organized at the time just wouldn't allow her to
see the simplicity of it. When she was 11, I could see a big change.
What was overwhelming before became simple.
Have you seen Fly Lady? Lots of people find her routines very
helpful. (If anyone hasn't visited her in a while, she's moved from
Yahoo groups to Big Tent.)
http://www.bigtent.com/group/buzz
Joyce
> I do clean, but they'd rather me NOT clean. They'd rather me do x,This is expected and normal.
> y, or z, but I can't do some of what they want because there is no
> room.
Dawn Adams said:
"We don't clean up messes to have a clean house. We clean up messes
so there is room for more mess! Now I think of cleaning up after my
kids as replacing a canvas."
Rather than thinking in terms of one way to get a clean (or cleaner)
canvas, think in terms of many ways working together towards that.
Have large bins to fling things into.
Keep some toys with lots of small pieces up so you can help them.
Put down a big table cloth or rug to play on that can be picked up
and the toys poured into a bin when they're done.
Make clean up an organic part of the process. Say "Let's get this
picked up so we can do x. Sasha if you could put the big bunny back
in the bin and Misha if you could put the paper in the trash that
would be a big help."
-- Do it joyfully. If you're grumpy they'll flee. But own the task.
It's yours and you're asking for help. No thanks needs to be an
option for them.
-- Accept joyfully what help they can give. They could have been
doing something else they found more important to them, but they
chose to spend time with you helping. Show them you appreciate it :-)
-- Suggest a specific task for a child. Messes can seem overwhelming
so asking one child to pick up all the red blocks, or put the books
on the shelf will help them focus on just a little thing.
-- Turn it into a game. Don't put things in bins, throw them for
points. Set a timer and race.
That's just a few suggestions.
> No, I do not have finger foods handy because, save for crackers,Have you seen monkey platters:
> there aren't any they'd eat. They don't like raw veggies. Won't eat
> fruit unless I actually put it on the table (won't seek it out when
> it's been available).
>
http://sandradodd.com/monkeyplatters/
Click on the link there for descriptions.
Rather than thinking in terms of finger foods or hot foods, think in
terms of *ways* of getting food into them. They may not need you to
cook for 30 minutes. 10 may be enough to feel cared for.
> However, the fact remains, that someone has to find her dirtyTry making a sweep of the house for dishes and laundry a couple of
> clothes and wash them. I was wondering how other people handle
> this, esp., like I said with several young children.
>
times a day rather than waiting until you're doing dishes or laundry.
It's pretty much a given that kids won't put clothes in hampers. It's
a bonus when they do! :-) Take 2 minutes to swoop through.
> I DO expect my 7 yo to: bring her plate to the sink and put herIt will help your relationship and the peace of the house if you
> laundry in the hamper. That's it. I don't think those two tasks
> will "deny her of her very nature."
>
don't *expect* her to. If she doesn't do what you expect, she'll have
failed. So let that go.
*Appreciate* that she does. If any of them are leaving the room
without a dish, just say "Dish," in a helpful tone. Expect that they
want to help but that doing it on their own is beyond them. Help them
help.
If you haven't read "How To Talk So Kids Will Listen and Listen So
Kids Will Talk" it's got lots of good practical advice. It doesn't go
far enough into eliminating the power play, but it's a great
beginning point and the skills are very useful.
> but I do remind, esp. when she complains that she has no clothesShe's showing by her actions that she can't remember. Your reminder
>
is probably annoying her because she knows. But knowing and being
able to do are two separate things. As she's taking off her clothes
she thinking about something else. That's the way brains work. At 7
the future prospects of not having clothes just don't loom large
enough to intrude on her thoughts. Accept that. Your reminders are
just telling her she's broken and wrong and needs to fix herself. But
she's perfectly normal. Age will take care of it but there's no
guarantee at what age she'll be capable of that awareness.
> Expectations are not a bad thing, I don't think, when there is aExpectations can set kids up to fail. They can increase the tension
> choice.
>
in the atmosphere of the house.
Better to think in terms of helping them, being their partner.
> It's like with her piano lessons . . .she chose to take them. But,If she's having fun I wouldn't muck with it, *BUT* in terms of
> her teacher expects her to practice. I expect her to practice, too,
> since the money for them isn't easily found. At ANY point she can
> stop taking lessons, though.
>
unschooling, it's better to see the point of lessons as a child
trying something out, exploring, having fun rather than progress.
There's absolutely value in the notion that if people work past the
rough parts and get better that they can have fun with the skill. But
parents and teachers can get so focused on working towards better and
the future fun that they crush the current enjoyment. The child then
equates the pressure to practice and get better with the instrument
and gets turned off.
Better in terms of life learning to have a little taste that was fun
than pressure to be better. Better to find ways to help them play in
between times (rather than practice) -- like playing with them --
than pressure to do something they don't want to. It's better to have
a little taste that wasn't fun with the child choosing to stop than
pressure past the unfun part to a future that we can't know is better.
> I also notice that my children prefer it when things are organized.Absolutely for many kids. Kids can't appreciate the benefits of clean
>
unless they experience clean. They can't decide it's worth the effort
to straighten up if they haven't experienced a lot of both so they
can compare.
But having the skills to get from messy to clean don't come
automatically with the appreciation. When Kathryn was young -- under
10 -- my husband and I would fold laundry and she'd come to be with
us. If we asked her if she'd like to fold wash cloths or towels or
sort socks it was overwhelming to her. It seemed such a simple task!
It didn't seem an unreasonable expectation. But something about the
way her brain was organized at the time just wouldn't allow her to
see the simplicity of it. When she was 11, I could see a big change.
What was overwhelming before became simple.
Have you seen Fly Lady? Lots of people find her routines very
helpful. (If anyone hasn't visited her in a while, she's moved from
Yahoo groups to Big Tent.)
http://www.bigtent.com/group/buzz
Joyce
Schuyler
I can't help much with cleaning. I am not particularly tidy. I do pick up as I go and move through. It helped a lot when Simon and Linnaea were younger to look at their messes as stories about their day. When I'd go through the DVDs and put them back in the right cases I was seeing the path they'd taken from one movie to another over the course of days or weeks. And I could touch those moments in my memory of snuggling with them of laughing at the Pink Panther, of Simon's sweaty head as he fell asleep in my arms. I learned to love putting things out. Setting the stage for a moment of discovery or play as I lay out their action figures and animals and soft toys in some elaborate scene, maybe sneaking over the antlers we found at Raby Castle grounds or climbing a block tower that I built. Or of finding that picture that Linnaea had drawn that she was so proud of that she showed David and me and I wrote notes on the back to explain to our later selves and
that had then gotten buried in the mountain of later works and paper clippings and could have so easily been gone forever if it weren't for my care. It took a lot to see each mess as an opportunity for me and each clean space as a blank canvas for them to work from (http://sandradodd.com/chores/shift third entry down).
I don't clean to keep a clean space, I clean to create a space to play in. And from what you've written that clearly is the case for you as well. You want to give them the freedom to play in a clean room by having fewer things to play with. I think Meredith's mention of using a snow shovel as a dustpan is pa wonderful picture. It also is a demonstration of how to approach cleaning. Cleaning and clearing can, often, be done quickly and bluntly. If a room is inaccessible because of mess, come up with ways to clean it less thoroughly to make it at least accessible. I get stuck with wanting to clear up all the minutia and keep it ordered. David, my husband, is much better at piling things up and out of the way to be dealt with when someone has more moments to deal with them. Often that isn't for a long, long time.
Anyhow, I said I didn't have much to help with a cleaning perspective...
Food I can talk about. I love food. I love feeding Simon and Linnaea. I absolutely agree that fixing food is an act of love. At its most basic it's a fact of parenting. But when you take the 5 or 10 minutes to put together a monkey platter (http://www.sandradodd.com/monkeyplatters/) or when you take the 25 minutes total of prep time to make a loaf of challah which you get to later slice and butter and put before a hungry boy or when you go the grocery store and you find grapes to freeze and radishes to carve into smiley faced mushrooms or apples to make bunnies out of or when you open a package from the U.S. with cheetos in it, those are absolutely gifts of love. Simon and Linnaea love the care of being fed. Simon often asks for things that he could get himself simply because being cared for in that minute is special for him.
David and I cook together most evenings. We cook mainly because he and I like a main meal. Simon and Linnaea don't mind so much. And for much of their lives, although as they are growing it is lessening, we've made 3 meals an evening. David and I want one thing and each of them want another. It doesn't add that much work and it means that no one has ever had to sit feeling the misery that I can oh, so clearly remember experiencing as I sat alone at the dinner table looking at congealing food that I didn't want when it was warm. Sometimes what they want isn't a full meal. Sometimes they want a full meal at 4 but not at 6. Being flexible is really important. Last night we had chip butties, chips, baked beans and mushy peas, a very British meal. Simon had spaghetti threaded hot dogs to start and finished with a chip butty (a french fry and buttered bread sandwich), Linnaea had baked beans and chips (french fries) and David and I had mushy peas (marrowfat
peas that have been mashed up) and chips covered in green chile and cheese. 3 different meals.
There are lots of can'ts and don'ts and won't works in your response.
It is so easy to get stuck seeing no solution. You even are expecting
it to get worse: "I have little routines built into the day that make
things better . .
.but I still have a long way to go, and as I said, it's only going to
get harder, at least for a few years." That's a lot of stress and
tension on your shoulders. Try not to look ahead. Try to go one moment
at a time. Try to know that for each of them this is the only this
moment you get to share. Simon and Linnaea are 12 and 9 and already
they are doing so much without me. I get so much more time to myself,
if I choose it, than I ever imagined I would have when Linnaea was 2
and Simon was 5. They always welcome me into whatever they are doing
but they don't need me anymore. I miss the needing me. And it doesn't
seem fair that the period of intense need is all piled up, all of your
children all at once, and then it dissapates as they age, as they are
all aging at the same rate, growing, moving on from that need. Stop,
every once in a while, a lot if you can, and relish it. Look at each child and each mess and each cut piece of paper as something that won't come around again. It will flow and move and change and you get right now, only right now with this. It is so very precious. Don't hope for few years from now, this could be the best time of your life, even if it overwhelms and stretches you to almost breaking. And as the Mayor of Asterix and Obelix's village, Vitalstatistix, who is afraid that the world is going to fall on his head tomorrow says: "Tomorrow never comes!"
Schuyler
-------
Oh, and a postscript poem:
Song for a Fifth Child
by Ruth Hulburt Hamilton
Mother, oh Mother, come shake out your cloth,
Empty the dustpan, poison the moth,
Hang out the washing and butter the bread,
Sew on a button and make up a bed.
Where is the mother whose house is so shocking?
She’s up in the nursery, blissfully rocking.
Oh, I’ve grown shiftless as Little Boy Blue
(Lullaby, rockaby, lullaby loo).
Dishes are waiting and bills are past due
(Pat-a-cake, darling, and peek, peekaboo).
The shopping’s not done and there’s nothing for stew
And out in the yard there’s a hullabaloo
But I’m playing Kanga and this is my Roo.
Look! Aren’t her eyes the most wonderful hue?
(Lullaby, rockaby, lullaby loo).
The cleaning and scrubbing will wait till tomorrow,
For children grow up, as I’ve learned to my sorrow.
So quiet down, cobwebs. Dust go to sleep.
I’m rocking my baby and babies don’t keep.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
that had then gotten buried in the mountain of later works and paper clippings and could have so easily been gone forever if it weren't for my care. It took a lot to see each mess as an opportunity for me and each clean space as a blank canvas for them to work from (http://sandradodd.com/chores/shift third entry down).
I don't clean to keep a clean space, I clean to create a space to play in. And from what you've written that clearly is the case for you as well. You want to give them the freedom to play in a clean room by having fewer things to play with. I think Meredith's mention of using a snow shovel as a dustpan is pa wonderful picture. It also is a demonstration of how to approach cleaning. Cleaning and clearing can, often, be done quickly and bluntly. If a room is inaccessible because of mess, come up with ways to clean it less thoroughly to make it at least accessible. I get stuck with wanting to clear up all the minutia and keep it ordered. David, my husband, is much better at piling things up and out of the way to be dealt with when someone has more moments to deal with them. Often that isn't for a long, long time.
Anyhow, I said I didn't have much to help with a cleaning perspective...
Food I can talk about. I love food. I love feeding Simon and Linnaea. I absolutely agree that fixing food is an act of love. At its most basic it's a fact of parenting. But when you take the 5 or 10 minutes to put together a monkey platter (http://www.sandradodd.com/monkeyplatters/) or when you take the 25 minutes total of prep time to make a loaf of challah which you get to later slice and butter and put before a hungry boy or when you go the grocery store and you find grapes to freeze and radishes to carve into smiley faced mushrooms or apples to make bunnies out of or when you open a package from the U.S. with cheetos in it, those are absolutely gifts of love. Simon and Linnaea love the care of being fed. Simon often asks for things that he could get himself simply because being cared for in that minute is special for him.
David and I cook together most evenings. We cook mainly because he and I like a main meal. Simon and Linnaea don't mind so much. And for much of their lives, although as they are growing it is lessening, we've made 3 meals an evening. David and I want one thing and each of them want another. It doesn't add that much work and it means that no one has ever had to sit feeling the misery that I can oh, so clearly remember experiencing as I sat alone at the dinner table looking at congealing food that I didn't want when it was warm. Sometimes what they want isn't a full meal. Sometimes they want a full meal at 4 but not at 6. Being flexible is really important. Last night we had chip butties, chips, baked beans and mushy peas, a very British meal. Simon had spaghetti threaded hot dogs to start and finished with a chip butty (a french fry and buttered bread sandwich), Linnaea had baked beans and chips (french fries) and David and I had mushy peas (marrowfat
peas that have been mashed up) and chips covered in green chile and cheese. 3 different meals.
There are lots of can'ts and don'ts and won't works in your response.
It is so easy to get stuck seeing no solution. You even are expecting
it to get worse: "I have little routines built into the day that make
things better . .
.but I still have a long way to go, and as I said, it's only going to
get harder, at least for a few years." That's a lot of stress and
tension on your shoulders. Try not to look ahead. Try to go one moment
at a time. Try to know that for each of them this is the only this
moment you get to share. Simon and Linnaea are 12 and 9 and already
they are doing so much without me. I get so much more time to myself,
if I choose it, than I ever imagined I would have when Linnaea was 2
and Simon was 5. They always welcome me into whatever they are doing
but they don't need me anymore. I miss the needing me. And it doesn't
seem fair that the period of intense need is all piled up, all of your
children all at once, and then it dissapates as they age, as they are
all aging at the same rate, growing, moving on from that need. Stop,
every once in a while, a lot if you can, and relish it. Look at each child and each mess and each cut piece of paper as something that won't come around again. It will flow and move and change and you get right now, only right now with this. It is so very precious. Don't hope for few years from now, this could be the best time of your life, even if it overwhelms and stretches you to almost breaking. And as the Mayor of Asterix and Obelix's village, Vitalstatistix, who is afraid that the world is going to fall on his head tomorrow says: "Tomorrow never comes!"
Schuyler
-------
Oh, and a postscript poem:
Song for a Fifth Child
by Ruth Hulburt Hamilton
Mother, oh Mother, come shake out your cloth,
Empty the dustpan, poison the moth,
Hang out the washing and butter the bread,
Sew on a button and make up a bed.
Where is the mother whose house is so shocking?
She’s up in the nursery, blissfully rocking.
Oh, I’ve grown shiftless as Little Boy Blue
(Lullaby, rockaby, lullaby loo).
Dishes are waiting and bills are past due
(Pat-a-cake, darling, and peek, peekaboo).
The shopping’s not done and there’s nothing for stew
And out in the yard there’s a hullabaloo
But I’m playing Kanga and this is my Roo.
Look! Aren’t her eyes the most wonderful hue?
(Lullaby, rockaby, lullaby loo).
The cleaning and scrubbing will wait till tomorrow,
For children grow up, as I’ve learned to my sorrow.
So quiet down, cobwebs. Dust go to sleep.
I’m rocking my baby and babies don’t keep.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Faith Void
Response:
I am not upset that my DD does not usually put her laundry in the
hamper. However, the fact remains, that someone has to find her dirty
clothes and wash them. I was wondering how other people handle this,
esp., like I said with several young children.
The way we handle it is there are clothes hampers in each bedroom.
There would be in the bathroom but there isn't room. With my 12, she
tyicslly puts all her dirty clothes in her hamper (a metal trash can).
Sometimes she forgets her clothes in the bathroom, I pick them up and
put them in a bin. 6 has one in his bedroom and uses it 50% of the
time. I go in thre and pick the clothes up and put them in the bin. 2
year old will help put her stuff in the bin as it's fun for her. Once
a day I travel through the house doing a 15 minute clean sweep. I have
a 3000+ sqft house so usually it takee two! I have a laundry bin
downstairs to the basement that I throw dirty laundry into.
I wash at least one load per day.
I don't follow a fly lady routine but I found a few things that work
for us. I think cleaning in 15 minute incriments is perfect for mamas
of little kids. It might take a little for the to get use to it but
it's easy after y'all get the hang of it.
I use a timer and set it for 15 minutes and we (or I) clean like
mad :-) when the timer goes off I stop! And then play with the kids
again. If it needs more cleaning I set a play timer and give the kids
15-30 minutes of undivided attention. On days when they need more I
clean less.
I will occaisionally clean early in the AM before they wake.
What about gathering toys that they would like to pass on to other
kids. My oldest finds this fun and easy. My middle has a harder time
but still finds things he no longer loves. It makes room to enjoy the
things he loves.
Faith
Sent from my iPhone
I am not upset that my DD does not usually put her laundry in the
hamper. However, the fact remains, that someone has to find her dirty
clothes and wash them. I was wondering how other people handle this,
esp., like I said with several young children.
The way we handle it is there are clothes hampers in each bedroom.
There would be in the bathroom but there isn't room. With my 12, she
tyicslly puts all her dirty clothes in her hamper (a metal trash can).
Sometimes she forgets her clothes in the bathroom, I pick them up and
put them in a bin. 6 has one in his bedroom and uses it 50% of the
time. I go in thre and pick the clothes up and put them in the bin. 2
year old will help put her stuff in the bin as it's fun for her. Once
a day I travel through the house doing a 15 minute clean sweep. I have
a 3000+ sqft house so usually it takee two! I have a laundry bin
downstairs to the basement that I throw dirty laundry into.
I wash at least one load per day.
I don't follow a fly lady routine but I found a few things that work
for us. I think cleaning in 15 minute incriments is perfect for mamas
of little kids. It might take a little for the to get use to it but
it's easy after y'all get the hang of it.
I use a timer and set it for 15 minutes and we (or I) clean like
mad :-) when the timer goes off I stop! And then play with the kids
again. If it needs more cleaning I set a play timer and give the kids
15-30 minutes of undivided attention. On days when they need more I
clean less.
I will occaisionally clean early in the AM before they wake.
What about gathering toys that they would like to pass on to other
kids. My oldest finds this fun and easy. My middle has a harder time
but still finds things he no longer loves. It makes room to enjoy the
things he loves.
Faith
Sent from my iPhone
On Sep 29, 2009, at 1:05 AM, "mizelenius" <mizelenius@...> wrote:
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Lyla Wolfenstein
----- Original Message -----
is probably annoying her because she knows. But knowing and being
able to do are two separate things. As she's taking off her clothes
she thinking about something else. That's the way brains work. At 7
the future prospects of not having clothes just don't loom large
enough to intrude on her thoughts. Accept that. Your reminders are
just telling her she's broken and wrong and needs to fix herself. But
she's perfectly normal. Age will take care of it but there's no
guarantee at what age she'll be capable of that awareness.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
it's really so true - and this mindset shift that joyce describes made ALL the difference in the relationship between me and my daughter, which is, after all, the most important thing (the relationship vs. the laundry).
it ALSO made all the difference in how willing she is to help me *when i ask* or remind in this way.
just the other day, i was starting to feel a niggling bit of that old annoyance (not much, just a hint) because the bottle of laundry bleach was on the kitchen counter, along with a bottle of hair fixer, a makeup brush, and half a lemon, and the baking soda, from some attempt to create homemade hair bleach off an internet recipe the night before. i had already taken care of everything but the bottle of laundry bleach and my daughter had said the night before she'd put the bleach away "in a minute". she'd forgotten, and i had asked her once more. and she'd forgotten again, so when i came downstairs, in the morning, there it was, right where i wanted to make breakfast, etc.
it wasn't a huge deal, and most of the time i would have just done it for her, but for some reason this time i just didn't want to. so i didn't, and instead of saying anything more to her (she was asleep) when she woke up, i took a dry erase marker and wrote a sweet note on the bathroom mirror. it had a smiley face and a heart and just said "bleach please".
when she got up, she just took care of it. dignity preserved. she got a little laugh and felt a momentary connection to me when reading the note. and the bleach got put away, albeit not immediately.
i think preserving our kids' dignity, or rather, not destroying it in our interactions with them, is hugely important.
oh - by the way - my daughter is 14. and if i ask, she will unload the dishwasher, or do pretty much any task i would genuinely find helpful. but "expectations" are quite stressful for her. a few things are habitual now - like clearing her plate from the dining table. but if she forgets to do things that are habitual for *me* that doesn't mean she's intentionally trying to make things difficult
if i'd figured this out better, when she was younger, like the OP's daughter, we'd have had a lot more happiness between us, a lot sooner :)
warmly, lyla
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>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>She's showing by her actions that she can't remember. Your reminder
is probably annoying her because she knows. But knowing and being
able to do are two separate things. As she's taking off her clothes
she thinking about something else. That's the way brains work. At 7
the future prospects of not having clothes just don't loom large
enough to intrude on her thoughts. Accept that. Your reminders are
just telling her she's broken and wrong and needs to fix herself. But
she's perfectly normal. Age will take care of it but there's no
guarantee at what age she'll be capable of that awareness.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
it's really so true - and this mindset shift that joyce describes made ALL the difference in the relationship between me and my daughter, which is, after all, the most important thing (the relationship vs. the laundry).
it ALSO made all the difference in how willing she is to help me *when i ask* or remind in this way.
just the other day, i was starting to feel a niggling bit of that old annoyance (not much, just a hint) because the bottle of laundry bleach was on the kitchen counter, along with a bottle of hair fixer, a makeup brush, and half a lemon, and the baking soda, from some attempt to create homemade hair bleach off an internet recipe the night before. i had already taken care of everything but the bottle of laundry bleach and my daughter had said the night before she'd put the bleach away "in a minute". she'd forgotten, and i had asked her once more. and she'd forgotten again, so when i came downstairs, in the morning, there it was, right where i wanted to make breakfast, etc.
it wasn't a huge deal, and most of the time i would have just done it for her, but for some reason this time i just didn't want to. so i didn't, and instead of saying anything more to her (she was asleep) when she woke up, i took a dry erase marker and wrote a sweet note on the bathroom mirror. it had a smiley face and a heart and just said "bleach please".
when she got up, she just took care of it. dignity preserved. she got a little laugh and felt a momentary connection to me when reading the note. and the bleach got put away, albeit not immediately.
i think preserving our kids' dignity, or rather, not destroying it in our interactions with them, is hugely important.
oh - by the way - my daughter is 14. and if i ask, she will unload the dishwasher, or do pretty much any task i would genuinely find helpful. but "expectations" are quite stressful for her. a few things are habitual now - like clearing her plate from the dining table. but if she forgets to do things that are habitual for *me* that doesn't mean she's intentionally trying to make things difficult
if i'd figured this out better, when she was younger, like the OP's daughter, we'd have had a lot more happiness between us, a lot sooner :)
warmly, lyla
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
kazglc
Thank you Ren for your words of wisdom - i will order the 'wherever you go' book - i've been looking to get something like that but not knowing what would be good as there is so many to choose from!
Karen
Karen
plaidpanties666
--- In [email protected], "mizelenius" <mizelenius@...> wrote:
I understand about it being hard to do things/find things in a messy space, for sure. Is there a reason why y'all can't move projects in and out of the playroom as needed? I realize it extends the mess to some degree but it can also be a quick fix in the moment: "let's set up this project in the kitchen so I can tidy up the playroom."
You're coming across a little defensive, here - I'm sorry if *I* came across as something other than supportive! You seem to be facing a number of challenges at once, that's hard.
At the same time, it doesn't help to put your energy into ideas like "the only way is...". It might help to shift to "I can't see a better way yet" or "I'm still looking for more options/solutions." Joyce and Faith had a lot of good suggestions for cleanup. Games with small pieces can sometimes be cleaned up with a dustpan more easily than individual bits - scooping legos with a dustpan was a trick I learned at my first unschooling conference! It can also be helpful to have one bin of just small parts to games (especially if one of your kids likes to mix up the parts! Mo loved that for awhile).
Something I do in the winter, especially, is make large batches of things that can be reheated quickly, leftover-style, in the microwave. Even things like pancakes, which is a favorite of Mo's. That way hot food is super fast *and* its easy for kids to get their own food if they want. Mo will sometimes want a parent to get her food/drinks, but will often get it herself if we're both in the middle of something rather than wait. The microwave helps with that a lot. With younger kids, it may be helpful to dish out serving sizes of favorite foods in a microwave-safe dish so its all ready to go. If you're busy in the moment, an older child might be willing to help out by popping the dish in the microwave, too.
I literally clean house with a laundry basket at the ready. Its much, much easier for me than the frustration of things not getting washed bc they didn't get in the hamper.
If she doesn't do those things regularly, than that's not a reasonable expectation. That's not meant as a criticism but a way to help you shift your perspective. Yes, your busy life would be muuuuuch easier if your children would be a little less child-like. It would be sooooo convenient if kids would act about ten years older than they are - not always, just now and then, when there are dishes to wash, for instance. But the fact remains that they are children, and pretty young children at that. Your 7yo seems very old to you, compared to your little ones, perhaps, and it can seem like she Should be ready to handle things that seem slight to you - but 7 is really very young still.
Be careful about thinking in extremes. The options aren't spic-n-span on the one hand and utter disaster on the other. Maybe that's not what you meant, exactly, but you're phrasing a lot of comments in really strong either-or language. You seem to have a lot of emotion tied up in getting things done around the house and it may help to clarify your own thinking if you can step back a little and find out where its coming from. Some moms wrap up a lot of their issues with personal power in housework, for instance, or issues about feeling "good enough". I'm not saying either of those is the case for you, just that home making can be done without so much angst. Can you shift your perspective to something more joyful?
You have some routines, that's good! Something that can help is to move away from negative expectations like "I have a long way to go" and "its only going to get harder" to more positve affirmations. "I'm giving my best every day" for example. If you really do see nothing but hardship ahead, it may help to keep in mind that you always have choices. You have chosen to work, to give the gift of more income to your family. You could choose differently. You are choosing to have another child - again, you could choose differently. Plently of people are looking to adopt babies. You aren't "stuck" with the life you have, you can change it. Sometimes thinking about that can help you appreciate what you have - or help you change things you aren't so happy about.
Ultimately, unschooling is about helping foster better relationships within families. Feeling stuck doesn't help you have a better relationship with your kids or husband. Trying to change other people doesn't help relationships. But often shifting your own perspective to something more forgiving, more open, more joyful! can go a long way to fostering more feelings of peace and harmony in the home.
---Meredith (Mo 8, Ray 16)
>> It's not working because when it's messy, they don't want to work in there (actually, to a certain degree, they can't because there isn't any room).**********************
I understand about it being hard to do things/find things in a messy space, for sure. Is there a reason why y'all can't move projects in and out of the playroom as needed? I realize it extends the mess to some degree but it can also be a quick fix in the moment: "let's set up this project in the kitchen so I can tidy up the playroom."
> I actually didn't take a lot on myself just "because." Like many people in the current economy, we need the money, which is why I got a job. We have looked at a million ways to save money, but there is a point where one simply needs more income. And the pregnancy- a surprise. And yes, everything has its place, everything is organized. The only way to make it easier would be to get rid of most toys with little pieces, but how fair would that be?***********************
You're coming across a little defensive, here - I'm sorry if *I* came across as something other than supportive! You seem to be facing a number of challenges at once, that's hard.
At the same time, it doesn't help to put your energy into ideas like "the only way is...". It might help to shift to "I can't see a better way yet" or "I'm still looking for more options/solutions." Joyce and Faith had a lot of good suggestions for cleanup. Games with small pieces can sometimes be cleaned up with a dustpan more easily than individual bits - scooping legos with a dustpan was a trick I learned at my first unschooling conference! It can also be helpful to have one bin of just small parts to games (especially if one of your kids likes to mix up the parts! Mo loved that for awhile).
>> And, they actually do like sitting down for a meal. They prefer hot food. What I've noticed, too, is that for them, me getting food ready for them is part of how they want attention . . .in other words, they feel more "cared for" when I get them food. For example, we have water ready/easy to get for them at all times, but somehow it's just more special for them if I get it.**********************
Something I do in the winter, especially, is make large batches of things that can be reheated quickly, leftover-style, in the microwave. Even things like pancakes, which is a favorite of Mo's. That way hot food is super fast *and* its easy for kids to get their own food if they want. Mo will sometimes want a parent to get her food/drinks, but will often get it herself if we're both in the middle of something rather than wait. The microwave helps with that a lot. With younger kids, it may be helpful to dish out serving sizes of favorite foods in a microwave-safe dish so its all ready to go. If you're busy in the moment, an older child might be willing to help out by popping the dish in the microwave, too.
>>> I am not upset that my DD does not usually put her laundry in the hamper. However, the fact remains, that someone has to find her dirty clothes and wash them.*************************
I literally clean house with a laundry basket at the ready. Its much, much easier for me than the frustration of things not getting washed bc they didn't get in the hamper.
>>I DO expect my 7 yo to: bring her plate to the sink and put her laundry in the hamper.**************************
If she doesn't do those things regularly, than that's not a reasonable expectation. That's not meant as a criticism but a way to help you shift your perspective. Yes, your busy life would be muuuuuch easier if your children would be a little less child-like. It would be sooooo convenient if kids would act about ten years older than they are - not always, just now and then, when there are dishes to wash, for instance. But the fact remains that they are children, and pretty young children at that. Your 7yo seems very old to you, compared to your little ones, perhaps, and it can seem like she Should be ready to handle things that seem slight to you - but 7 is really very young still.
>>It shouldn't come at the expense of nagging/complaining/etc., but scrounging for food, not being able to find what you want, not even being able to walk in a room because of a mess? No, I don't think that helps anyone feel peaceful.**********************
Be careful about thinking in extremes. The options aren't spic-n-span on the one hand and utter disaster on the other. Maybe that's not what you meant, exactly, but you're phrasing a lot of comments in really strong either-or language. You seem to have a lot of emotion tied up in getting things done around the house and it may help to clarify your own thinking if you can step back a little and find out where its coming from. Some moms wrap up a lot of their issues with personal power in housework, for instance, or issues about feeling "good enough". I'm not saying either of those is the case for you, just that home making can be done without so much angst. Can you shift your perspective to something more joyful?
>> I have little routines built into the day that make things better . . .but I still have a long way to go, and as I said, it's only going to get harder, at least for a few years.***************************
You have some routines, that's good! Something that can help is to move away from negative expectations like "I have a long way to go" and "its only going to get harder" to more positve affirmations. "I'm giving my best every day" for example. If you really do see nothing but hardship ahead, it may help to keep in mind that you always have choices. You have chosen to work, to give the gift of more income to your family. You could choose differently. You are choosing to have another child - again, you could choose differently. Plently of people are looking to adopt babies. You aren't "stuck" with the life you have, you can change it. Sometimes thinking about that can help you appreciate what you have - or help you change things you aren't so happy about.
Ultimately, unschooling is about helping foster better relationships within families. Feeling stuck doesn't help you have a better relationship with your kids or husband. Trying to change other people doesn't help relationships. But often shifting your own perspective to something more forgiving, more open, more joyful! can go a long way to fostering more feelings of peace and harmony in the home.
---Meredith (Mo 8, Ray 16)
gruvystarchild
~~She's showing by her actions that she can't remember. Your reminder
is probably annoying her because she knows. But knowing and being
able to do are two separate things.~~
Hmmmm....kind of like us parents learning new ways of interacting with our children. We KNOW, but being able to "do" are two separate things.;)
Ren
radicalunschooling.blogspot.com
is probably annoying her because she knows. But knowing and being
able to do are two separate things.~~
Hmmmm....kind of like us parents learning new ways of interacting with our children. We KNOW, but being able to "do" are two separate things.;)
Ren
radicalunschooling.blogspot.com
mizelenius
Thank you all so much for your replies. I have read them in detail and all of them have made me think and reflect, which is truly a gift!
I keep finding the "big picture" in little ways in life . . .I remember when I first heard about voluntary simplicity, for example, I would read various things (not even related to VS) and saw how the pieces of the puzzle all fit together.
Now I am finding the same is true with unschooling/parenting/LIVING. I find that the reoccurring theme has been acceptance. So many issues go back to this, be it re: my readings on Buddhism to improving my relationship to my spouse to understanding my children. I came up with a definition for "anger" a few months ago-- sort of a wakeup call for me. I found that anger is, essentially, being unable or unwilling to accept reality. Once a person is able to accept reality, chances are that person would not be angry. Disappointed or sad-- perhaps, but not angry. Anyway, again . . . there is that theme of acceptance!
So, I am trying to work on accepting the way the house is. I wasn't getting mad about it w/my children (though I was w/my spouse, but have been focusing on not expecting change) but I was still frustrated, and I think that overall attitude comes through.
I also like what someone wrote about how those little pieces of paper scattered on the floor are something that won't be there when my kids get older . . and that I should appreciate them as symbols of this time in their lives. Very, very nice-- makes me teary to think of it, really. It makes me look at a "mess" in a new kind of way. I never want to just wish these times away with my children.
I LOVE the monkey platter idea . . .sort of like an obento for the whole family! I will be doing that . . .a handy idea for many occasions.
Anyway, thanks to all of you again!
I keep finding the "big picture" in little ways in life . . .I remember when I first heard about voluntary simplicity, for example, I would read various things (not even related to VS) and saw how the pieces of the puzzle all fit together.
Now I am finding the same is true with unschooling/parenting/LIVING. I find that the reoccurring theme has been acceptance. So many issues go back to this, be it re: my readings on Buddhism to improving my relationship to my spouse to understanding my children. I came up with a definition for "anger" a few months ago-- sort of a wakeup call for me. I found that anger is, essentially, being unable or unwilling to accept reality. Once a person is able to accept reality, chances are that person would not be angry. Disappointed or sad-- perhaps, but not angry. Anyway, again . . . there is that theme of acceptance!
So, I am trying to work on accepting the way the house is. I wasn't getting mad about it w/my children (though I was w/my spouse, but have been focusing on not expecting change) but I was still frustrated, and I think that overall attitude comes through.
I also like what someone wrote about how those little pieces of paper scattered on the floor are something that won't be there when my kids get older . . and that I should appreciate them as symbols of this time in their lives. Very, very nice-- makes me teary to think of it, really. It makes me look at a "mess" in a new kind of way. I never want to just wish these times away with my children.
I LOVE the monkey platter idea . . .sort of like an obento for the whole family! I will be doing that . . .a handy idea for many occasions.
Anyway, thanks to all of you again!
carenkh
Your reply made me think of two books, which have helped me *immensely* in unschooling/life -
Radical Acceptance by Tara Brach
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0553801678/ref=cm_rdp_product
Loving What Is by Byron Katie
http://tinyurl.com/ycz5l25
She has other books out now, and a site where you can get an overview of her process, worksheets, links to videos, etc.
http://www.thework.com/thework.asp
I've found questioning my thoughts ANY time I'm not in acceptance has brought growth, and peace.
Caren
Radical Acceptance by Tara Brach
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0553801678/ref=cm_rdp_product
Loving What Is by Byron Katie
http://tinyurl.com/ycz5l25
She has other books out now, and a site where you can get an overview of her process, worksheets, links to videos, etc.
http://www.thework.com/thework.asp
I've found questioning my thoughts ANY time I'm not in acceptance has brought growth, and peace.
Caren
mizelenius
Caren, thank you. The first book sounds perfect! The second one, I own and have recommended to people as well . . .but then, I read a review on Amazon that made me reconsider. It said that B. Katie has a sort of "blame the victim" mentality in the "turn around" part, which is esp. dangerous in cases of actual abuse. Now, not everyone will interpret it this way, but I have stopped recommending it because I am not sure who has experienced blatant abuse.
--- In [email protected], "carenkh" <carenkh@...> wrote:
>
>
> Your reply made me think of two books, which have helped me *immensely* in unschooling/life -
>
> Radical Acceptance by Tara Brach
> http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0553801678/ref=cm_rdp_product
>
> Loving What Is by Byron Katie
> http://tinyurl.com/ycz5l25
> She has other books out now, and a site where you can get an overview of her process, worksheets, links to videos, etc.
> http://www.thework.com/thework.asp
>
> I've found questioning my thoughts ANY time I'm not in acceptance has brought growth, and peace.
>
> Caren
>