Re: Roadschooling mom and MATH
Deb Lewis
***All three of my kids have ended up in college math classes - all started
with the lowest level math (probably what is taught in middle schools).
All chose to start there, rather than take placement tests that would
have put them at higher levels, because they figured there was going to
be a lot of notation and stuff that they hadn't picked up yet.***
So, Pam, they got notation and other stuff *in* the college classes and not *to get into* college?
Deb Lewis
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
with the lowest level math (probably what is taught in middle schools).
All chose to start there, rather than take placement tests that would
have put them at higher levels, because they figured there was going to
be a lot of notation and stuff that they hadn't picked up yet.***
So, Pam, they got notation and other stuff *in* the college classes and not *to get into* college?
Deb Lewis
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pam Sorooshian
On 9/18/2009 10:54 AM, Deb Lewis wrote:
If one of them had wanted to go to a college that required ACT or SAT
scores, we'd have found another way for them to learn the notation, but
mine all went to community colleges first, so they didn't have to take
ACT or SAT tests for admissions since community colleges do not require
them and the universities do not require them of transfer students. The
community colleges have placement tests - they don't determine admission
eligibility, they tell the student which level of math they ought to
start in. My kids opted to skip the placement tests and just start at
the lowest math level. They thought it was very possible that if they
took the placement test, they could do well enough to be placed in a
higher level than they were really comfortable with - since they felt
there was probably a lot of notation and other specific stuff they
didn't know.
Roya has graduated from college after transferring, Roxana is starting
at UC Irvine on Monday - both finished all the math requirements before
transferring. Rosie is taking algebra right now at the community college
and will need one more course to complete all math requirements for the
degree she is probably going to be pursuing (Deaf Studies).
In spite of having had no formal math lessons, they all did really well
in all their math courses. None of them are crazy for math - they have
other interests - and all have had a math teacher or two who was
horrible. They stuck it out in order to move on into the field they
wanted to get into.
-pam
> So, Pam, they got notation and other stuff*in* the college classes and not*to get into* college?Correct.
>
If one of them had wanted to go to a college that required ACT or SAT
scores, we'd have found another way for them to learn the notation, but
mine all went to community colleges first, so they didn't have to take
ACT or SAT tests for admissions since community colleges do not require
them and the universities do not require them of transfer students. The
community colleges have placement tests - they don't determine admission
eligibility, they tell the student which level of math they ought to
start in. My kids opted to skip the placement tests and just start at
the lowest math level. They thought it was very possible that if they
took the placement test, they could do well enough to be placed in a
higher level than they were really comfortable with - since they felt
there was probably a lot of notation and other specific stuff they
didn't know.
Roya has graduated from college after transferring, Roxana is starting
at UC Irvine on Monday - both finished all the math requirements before
transferring. Rosie is taking algebra right now at the community college
and will need one more course to complete all math requirements for the
degree she is probably going to be pursuing (Deaf Studies).
In spite of having had no formal math lessons, they all did really well
in all their math courses. None of them are crazy for math - they have
other interests - and all have had a math teacher or two who was
horrible. They stuck it out in order to move on into the field they
wanted to get into.
-pam
nancyrsv
> mine all went to community colleges first, so they didn't have to takeWhat would you have done if they had wanted to go to university rather than community college? It seems like it is easier to just build it in earlier rather than waiting until they want to go college.
> ACT or SAT tests for admissions since community colleges do not require
> them and the universities do not require them of transfer students.
>
JJ
Build it in? But only if and when they want it and feel ready to tackle it for their own reasons, and ask me for help. First do no harm! I agree with Pam that's the best way to help keep their options open.
--- In [email protected], "nancyrsv" <sathren@...> wrote:
>
>
> > mine all went to community colleges first, so they didn't have to take
> > ACT or SAT tests for admissions since community colleges do not require
> > them and the universities do not require them of transfer students.
> >
>
>
> What would you have done if they had wanted to go to university rather than community college? It seems like it is easier to just build it in earlier rather than waiting until they want to go college.
>
Pam Sorooshian
On 9/18/2009 3:38 PM, nancyrsv wrote:
community college when they were younger, then when they wanted to go to
a university, they took courses that they would need and they went in as
juniors with all their lower division courses already completed.
If they had wanted to go directly to a 4-year university without taking
any community college courses, first, I'd have encouraged them to take
some community college courses anyway, for the experience (since they
hadn't been to school or done any school at home).
But, if they wanted to go from unschooling to universities (as freshmen
with no prior college experience) then they'd need entrance exams and
we'd have spent some time preparing for those.
I don't think building in algebra is easy to do earlier - not sure what
you mean? I don't know what "earlier" means to you, either.
If, at some time, they decide they want to go to certain colleges that
require the SAT or ACT, then they have a lot of different ways to learn
enough to do well on those tests. One way is just to use the preparation
books for those tests that you can buy in bookstores. Or they could get
other books and learn on their own. Or get a tutor for a while. Or use
Aleks.com or get a video course. But I see no reason to "build in"
things like algebra into every kids' life just on the chance that they
might decide to go directly to a college that requires SAT or ACT scores.
-pam
> What would you have done if they had wanted to go to university rather than community college? It seems like it is easier to just build it in earlier rather than waiting until they want to go college.They did go to universities - they started taking some classes at the
>
community college when they were younger, then when they wanted to go to
a university, they took courses that they would need and they went in as
juniors with all their lower division courses already completed.
If they had wanted to go directly to a 4-year university without taking
any community college courses, first, I'd have encouraged them to take
some community college courses anyway, for the experience (since they
hadn't been to school or done any school at home).
But, if they wanted to go from unschooling to universities (as freshmen
with no prior college experience) then they'd need entrance exams and
we'd have spent some time preparing for those.
I don't think building in algebra is easy to do earlier - not sure what
you mean? I don't know what "earlier" means to you, either.
If, at some time, they decide they want to go to certain colleges that
require the SAT or ACT, then they have a lot of different ways to learn
enough to do well on those tests. One way is just to use the preparation
books for those tests that you can buy in bookstores. Or they could get
other books and learn on their own. Or get a tutor for a while. Or use
Aleks.com or get a video course. But I see no reason to "build in"
things like algebra into every kids' life just on the chance that they
might decide to go directly to a college that requires SAT or ACT scores.
-pam
gruvystarchild
~~But I see no reason to "build in" things like algebra into every kids' life just on the chance that they might decide to go directly to a college that requires SAT or ACT scores.~~
How does a parent decide what to "build in" anyway? One of the premises of unschooling is admitting that I don't know what my children need for THEIR life journeys. My parents wouldn't have known the things I needed, couldn't have. If someone could have "built in" more art, helped me learn about fashion, makeup, photography and more color theory it would have helped. But I learned it as I needed it, as life presented opportunities to do what I loved.
That's the crux of unschooling to me...learn it when you need it, for your own reasons. How do you "build in" anything when you're learning what you want, when you want?
Ren
radicalunschooling.blogspot.com
How does a parent decide what to "build in" anyway? One of the premises of unschooling is admitting that I don't know what my children need for THEIR life journeys. My parents wouldn't have known the things I needed, couldn't have. If someone could have "built in" more art, helped me learn about fashion, makeup, photography and more color theory it would have helped. But I learned it as I needed it, as life presented opportunities to do what I loved.
That's the crux of unschooling to me...learn it when you need it, for your own reasons. How do you "build in" anything when you're learning what you want, when you want?
Ren
radicalunschooling.blogspot.com
nancyrsv
>But how do you know you need it if you have never been exposed to it? If you don't know it exists, you don't think you need it!
> That's the crux of unschooling to me...learn it when you need it, for your own reasons. How do you "build in" anything when you're learning what you want, when you want?
>
Pam Sorooshian
On 9/18/2009 7:57 PM, gruvystarchild wrote:
I am hesitant to talk about the "higher math" stuff on email lists
because so many people reading are parents of younger kids and I don't
want to stir up their anxieties. While it is true that higher math -
meaning algebra, calculus, trigonometry, etc., are not likely to be just
picked up naturally through daily living, the kind of thinking needed to
understand higher math WILL be picked up naturally. There is no need to
go to any kind of extra effort to "build in" anything as long as parents
are providing an interesting life filled with opportunities for the
child to pursue their own individual interests to the utmost.
Those unschooled kids who choose, when they are older, to pursue
interests that take them into fields where higher math is important -
engineering, chemistry, biology, physics, economics, etc., will be able
to figure out how THEY want to learn it. They will know themselves and
will have had years of unschooling experience, by that time. They will
have the confidence, the gumption, the competence, the creativity - they
will be able to figure out the best approach for themselves when the
time comes.
Unschoolers are not on a time-table for learning. If someone feels like
it is extremely important for a 17 year old to be fully prepared to step
into any college with all the prerequisite subjects "covered" and
documented for credit, then unschooling is not be for them. There is no
way to fully unschool and, at the same time, guarantee that a child will
"end up" ready to trot off to college at 18 years old.
Unschooling is an alternative pathway - it doesn't necessarily converge
with a school pathway just in time for college.
-pam
> That's the crux of unschooling to me...learn it when you need it, for your own reasons. How do you "build in" anything when you're learning what you want, when you want?I don't really know what "build in" even means in an unschooling context.
>
I am hesitant to talk about the "higher math" stuff on email lists
because so many people reading are parents of younger kids and I don't
want to stir up their anxieties. While it is true that higher math -
meaning algebra, calculus, trigonometry, etc., are not likely to be just
picked up naturally through daily living, the kind of thinking needed to
understand higher math WILL be picked up naturally. There is no need to
go to any kind of extra effort to "build in" anything as long as parents
are providing an interesting life filled with opportunities for the
child to pursue their own individual interests to the utmost.
Those unschooled kids who choose, when they are older, to pursue
interests that take them into fields where higher math is important -
engineering, chemistry, biology, physics, economics, etc., will be able
to figure out how THEY want to learn it. They will know themselves and
will have had years of unschooling experience, by that time. They will
have the confidence, the gumption, the competence, the creativity - they
will be able to figure out the best approach for themselves when the
time comes.
Unschoolers are not on a time-table for learning. If someone feels like
it is extremely important for a 17 year old to be fully prepared to step
into any college with all the prerequisite subjects "covered" and
documented for credit, then unschooling is not be for them. There is no
way to fully unschool and, at the same time, guarantee that a child will
"end up" ready to trot off to college at 18 years old.
Unschooling is an alternative pathway - it doesn't necessarily converge
with a school pathway just in time for college.
-pam
Schuyler
Is that like breaking someone's arm so that they know what it will be like if it happens accidently?
Acquiring something with a purpose is much easier than is acquiring something to be prepared. Figuring out statistics theoretically didn't stick nearly as well as figuring out the best way to analyze data that I wanted to analyze. Knowing what I wanted to use the statistical tools for gave me more information and focus than taking an introductory class in statistics ever could. Having a flood of possible choices for no use meant that I didn't remember very well at all what was on offer.
Schuyler
________________________________
From: nancyrsv <sathren@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Friday, 18 September, 2009 11:38:22 PM
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: Roadschooling mom and MATH
------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Acquiring something with a purpose is much easier than is acquiring something to be prepared. Figuring out statistics theoretically didn't stick nearly as well as figuring out the best way to analyze data that I wanted to analyze. Knowing what I wanted to use the statistical tools for gave me more information and focus than taking an introductory class in statistics ever could. Having a flood of possible choices for no use meant that I didn't remember very well at all what was on offer.
Schuyler
________________________________
From: nancyrsv <sathren@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Friday, 18 September, 2009 11:38:22 PM
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: Roadschooling mom and MATH
> mine all went to community colleges first, so they didn't have to takeWhat would you have done if they had wanted to go to university rather than community college? It seems like it is easier to just build it in earlier rather than waiting until they want to go college.
> ACT or SAT tests for admissions since community colleges do not require
> them and the universities do not require them of transfer students.
>
------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
plaidpanties666
--- In [email protected], "nancyrsv" <sathren@...> wrote:
In our home we talk about scientific notation, what pigments are and how paint is made, what's a caracal and where does it live? how are feathers constructed? which animals hibernate? how is thread made? how fast does light travel? how does a circuit work? what's a pork chop? what's nitrogen? We strew toys and games, books and magazines, movies, websites, theories and questions, but most of all, possibilities.
A year ago my 8yo didn't know she needed to learn programming and now she's learning about that, and learning what she needs to know to learn more. A year ago, my 15yo didn't know he needed to learn to solder and weld. A year ago, I didn't know I needed to learn to carve architectural details. A year ago, my partner didn't know he needed to learn about water filtration systems. Its Impossible to know what anyone will Need to know in the future. You can do a hundred things to prepare, but most people find they still have to do a lot of learning along the way.
The most important thing, with all the uncertainty in life, is to know how to learn. To know what one's own process looks and feels like so learning isn't a chore, isn't something to be avoided. My teen dives headlong into things that are challenging, knowing they'll be challenging, because he has confidence in his own learning. My 8yo will break down crying when she gets frustrated, but then, half an hour later, will be back at whatever it is she's decided to do, working through her own frustrations to reach her self chosen goals. They both know that sometimes they won't have all the skills at the beginning of an endeavor, and are willing to work to discover and gain those skills. That's something "getting ready for the future" can undermine - can leave people with the impression that they need to Be ready to even start.
Happily, learning what you need when you need it isn't nearly as hard, or as lengthy, as learning in school makes it out to be. Interest and motivation and readiness make all the difference in the world.
---Meredith (Mo 8, Ray 15)
> But how do you know you need it if you have never been exposed to it? If you don't know it exists, you don't think you need it!Unschooled kids aren't living in a vacuum, though. The whole idea of strewing is to open possible avenues of exploration at every turn Because we don't always know what our kids will be interested in.
>
In our home we talk about scientific notation, what pigments are and how paint is made, what's a caracal and where does it live? how are feathers constructed? which animals hibernate? how is thread made? how fast does light travel? how does a circuit work? what's a pork chop? what's nitrogen? We strew toys and games, books and magazines, movies, websites, theories and questions, but most of all, possibilities.
A year ago my 8yo didn't know she needed to learn programming and now she's learning about that, and learning what she needs to know to learn more. A year ago, my 15yo didn't know he needed to learn to solder and weld. A year ago, I didn't know I needed to learn to carve architectural details. A year ago, my partner didn't know he needed to learn about water filtration systems. Its Impossible to know what anyone will Need to know in the future. You can do a hundred things to prepare, but most people find they still have to do a lot of learning along the way.
The most important thing, with all the uncertainty in life, is to know how to learn. To know what one's own process looks and feels like so learning isn't a chore, isn't something to be avoided. My teen dives headlong into things that are challenging, knowing they'll be challenging, because he has confidence in his own learning. My 8yo will break down crying when she gets frustrated, but then, half an hour later, will be back at whatever it is she's decided to do, working through her own frustrations to reach her self chosen goals. They both know that sometimes they won't have all the skills at the beginning of an endeavor, and are willing to work to discover and gain those skills. That's something "getting ready for the future" can undermine - can leave people with the impression that they need to Be ready to even start.
Happily, learning what you need when you need it isn't nearly as hard, or as lengthy, as learning in school makes it out to be. Interest and motivation and readiness make all the difference in the world.
---Meredith (Mo 8, Ray 15)
nancyrsv
"The most important thing, with all the uncertainty in life, is to know how to learn. To know what one's own process looks and feels like so learning isn't a chore, isn't something to be avoided. "
AGREED!!!
AGREED!!!