Unschooling Weight Gain and Math
JRossedd
I read on digest and so just saw "Rachel's" saddening, offensive posts
all in a one big email (over and over and over!)
Y'all please, PLEASE trim your posts! :)
About halfway through the digest found myself cheering Ren:
"You've got some really big baggage and some really sad and sick ways of
viewing children and how to treat them. I was giving you the benefit of
the doubt for a long time in this convo. But this is overboard. Anyone
who would treat a child so horribly is doing something FAR worse than
playing a violent video game."
By the time I got to the bottom of the digest about unschooling older
children ready for "school" math conventions, I was not in the right
mindset to reply in any detail but I wanted to say we've been going
through exactly that stage of life the past three years or so, and I
have a lot I could add to Pam's wonderful ideas for young children with
math aptitude. Also I will be very interested to hear what's working
for others. Sometimes (as with my daughter) despite all Pam's help and
counsel for which I was so grateful -- thanks again Pam! -- it turns out
not to be quite so easy and natural.
Here's how she saw it, in her own words (writing is her major, not math!)
http://misedjj.wordpress.com/2008/03/27/well-that-explains-a-lot/
After two days of clinical tests, she was documented with a basic
"coding disorder" that the college office of disabilities then accepted
in lieu of the state law's required two math courses. She took extra
science to substitute. I continue to work hard and mostly succeed, to
keep my own feelings of guilt out of it (both for what I did and did not
do, sigh) and it's turning into a wonderful success story for her at
university. Top of her class, merit scholarships and awards, etc. She
can do anything she wants. But now she wants graduate degrees and you
know what that means -- somehow getting through the math portion of the
GRE. Here we go again. :)
Now our 14-year-old son who's also done absolutely no pencil-paper
arithmetic or math, is beginning to eye community college at 15 or 16,
for histroy and the arts, and he'll have to pass the college algebra
readiness exam to be admitted. His dad is pressuring me a bit to more
actively help him prepare as with our daughter, so that if there is some
special need, we'll know about it sooner and it will be smoother for
him. So we've been watching the "Basic Math" Teaching Company dvds of
Professor Murray H. Siegel that first for our daughter but that never
helped her (but did help us start to realize that despite her overall
intelligence and understanding, in basic calculation she is literally
unable to keep track of several numbers in her mind at once, to perform
a multi-step process.)
The dvds seem to work fine for him -- so far at least. Then just
yesterday we were experimenting with a dummies-type series called "A
Brain-Friendly Guide" I found at Barnes N Noble. This one is "Head First
Algebra (includes pre-algebra review) by Tracey and Dan Pilone. We'll see.
all in a one big email (over and over and over!)
Y'all please, PLEASE trim your posts! :)
About halfway through the digest found myself cheering Ren:
"You've got some really big baggage and some really sad and sick ways of
viewing children and how to treat them. I was giving you the benefit of
the doubt for a long time in this convo. But this is overboard. Anyone
who would treat a child so horribly is doing something FAR worse than
playing a violent video game."
By the time I got to the bottom of the digest about unschooling older
children ready for "school" math conventions, I was not in the right
mindset to reply in any detail but I wanted to say we've been going
through exactly that stage of life the past three years or so, and I
have a lot I could add to Pam's wonderful ideas for young children with
math aptitude. Also I will be very interested to hear what's working
for others. Sometimes (as with my daughter) despite all Pam's help and
counsel for which I was so grateful -- thanks again Pam! -- it turns out
not to be quite so easy and natural.
Here's how she saw it, in her own words (writing is her major, not math!)
http://misedjj.wordpress.com/2008/03/27/well-that-explains-a-lot/
After two days of clinical tests, she was documented with a basic
"coding disorder" that the college office of disabilities then accepted
in lieu of the state law's required two math courses. She took extra
science to substitute. I continue to work hard and mostly succeed, to
keep my own feelings of guilt out of it (both for what I did and did not
do, sigh) and it's turning into a wonderful success story for her at
university. Top of her class, merit scholarships and awards, etc. She
can do anything she wants. But now she wants graduate degrees and you
know what that means -- somehow getting through the math portion of the
GRE. Here we go again. :)
Now our 14-year-old son who's also done absolutely no pencil-paper
arithmetic or math, is beginning to eye community college at 15 or 16,
for histroy and the arts, and he'll have to pass the college algebra
readiness exam to be admitted. His dad is pressuring me a bit to more
actively help him prepare as with our daughter, so that if there is some
special need, we'll know about it sooner and it will be smoother for
him. So we've been watching the "Basic Math" Teaching Company dvds of
Professor Murray H. Siegel that first for our daughter but that never
helped her (but did help us start to realize that despite her overall
intelligence and understanding, in basic calculation she is literally
unable to keep track of several numbers in her mind at once, to perform
a multi-step process.)
The dvds seem to work fine for him -- so far at least. Then just
yesterday we were experimenting with a dummies-type series called "A
Brain-Friendly Guide" I found at Barnes N Noble. This one is "Head First
Algebra (includes pre-algebra review) by Tracey and Dan Pilone. We'll see.
jrossedd
Since I suddenly find myself moved to post, here's another connection to make between food, weight and unschooling math, again from always-unschooled Favorite Daughter in her own words, this time about her body image when she was about 16:
http://misedjj.wordpress.com/2006/11/29/paying-homage/
"I am the national average, physiologically, and yet I am an elephant in comparison to almost everyone I know. . ."
http://misedjj.wordpress.com/2006/11/29/paying-homage/
"I am the national average, physiologically, and yet I am an elephant in comparison to almost everyone I know. . ."
--- In [email protected], JRossedd <jrossedd@...> wrote:
I wanted to say we've been going
> through exactly that stage of life the past three years or so
Crystal
I don't post often but follow most threads. I don't understand something,
maybe some of you could clarify where you are coming from. Here's the thing.
You all say that you want to teach your children to become independent
thinkers and voice their own opinions, right? Don't you think, if you do
this now, they will continue to do that when they get older? So, where am I
headed with this? Well, as soon as someone comes on here with a different
opinion or a different way of doing things, they are bashed. Isn't that a
double standard? I mean, would you really call your kid sick or tell them
that they have some "sick ways" of doing something? Seriously, would you
talk to them the same way, or are they your equals but adults are not? I
know this sounds harsh coming from emails but I am looking at long term
here, how ARE you going to treat your kids, like you treat some people on
here? I get that it's awesome to give advice when someone asks for it but to
do it in such a manner as to belittle them, my "opinion" is that it's wrong.
Can we not offer up advice/suggestions without the harshness?
On another note, I have very strong opinions on the food issue but have
refrained from even contributing to this because of the level of hostility
that has come with it. It's just not worth it.
Crystal
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
maybe some of you could clarify where you are coming from. Here's the thing.
You all say that you want to teach your children to become independent
thinkers and voice their own opinions, right? Don't you think, if you do
this now, they will continue to do that when they get older? So, where am I
headed with this? Well, as soon as someone comes on here with a different
opinion or a different way of doing things, they are bashed. Isn't that a
double standard? I mean, would you really call your kid sick or tell them
that they have some "sick ways" of doing something? Seriously, would you
talk to them the same way, or are they your equals but adults are not? I
know this sounds harsh coming from emails but I am looking at long term
here, how ARE you going to treat your kids, like you treat some people on
here? I get that it's awesome to give advice when someone asks for it but to
do it in such a manner as to belittle them, my "opinion" is that it's wrong.
Can we not offer up advice/suggestions without the harshness?
On another note, I have very strong opinions on the food issue but have
refrained from even contributing to this because of the level of hostility
that has come with it. It's just not worth it.
Crystal
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Paul & Camille
I agree, I was sickened by Rachels final comments before leaving, and agreed with Ren totally. It made me feel so sick in the stomach that she would say such things. I also felt for Karen sharing such personal details about her life, and glad that we are for the most part understanding of others views and that we can learn & listen to others views without having to attack and defend ourselves constantly, if we cannot see outside our own enclosed box why are we here?
Thanks for the discussion though, as I learn and grew much in my parenting views :)
Camille
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Thanks for the discussion though, as I learn and grew much in my parenting views :)
Camille
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
gruvystarchild
~~Well, as soon as someone comes on here with a different
opinion or a different way of doing things, they are bashed. Isn't that a double standard? I mean, would you really call your kid sick or tell them that they have some "sick ways" of doing something?~~
It's not bashing a person to bash their ideas. I didn't call HER "sick" I did call the idea of showing a CHILD photos of victims of violence "sick" and yes, I'd tell my kids the same if they thought that was a nice thing to do to an unwilling friend. It's cruel and parents are cruel if they think that's a good way to manipulate a child.
Did you read her entire post? She wanted to show her CHILDREN a photo of a murdered toddler with the mother in order to "teach" them that violence is bad. To think that a child would have to endure such treatment just for showing interest in a violent video game makes me ill. I think we're pretty clear in our guidelines that if you advocate spanking or other such mainstream ideas you should be prepared to deal with heavy responses.
We're not here to promote and tolerate all sorts of different ideas. Where do we state that? We're here to advocate for gentle parenting and unschooling. I thought the list description was pretty clear.
And yes, I assume that an adult who has chosen to join a group with a purpose stated up front, is capable of discussion and choosing what they want to share.
For the record, Rachel was asked repeatedly to stop posting and just read for a while (off list...very gently) and chose to completely ignore the suggestion.
Ren
radicalunschooling.blogspot.com
opinion or a different way of doing things, they are bashed. Isn't that a double standard? I mean, would you really call your kid sick or tell them that they have some "sick ways" of doing something?~~
It's not bashing a person to bash their ideas. I didn't call HER "sick" I did call the idea of showing a CHILD photos of victims of violence "sick" and yes, I'd tell my kids the same if they thought that was a nice thing to do to an unwilling friend. It's cruel and parents are cruel if they think that's a good way to manipulate a child.
Did you read her entire post? She wanted to show her CHILDREN a photo of a murdered toddler with the mother in order to "teach" them that violence is bad. To think that a child would have to endure such treatment just for showing interest in a violent video game makes me ill. I think we're pretty clear in our guidelines that if you advocate spanking or other such mainstream ideas you should be prepared to deal with heavy responses.
We're not here to promote and tolerate all sorts of different ideas. Where do we state that? We're here to advocate for gentle parenting and unschooling. I thought the list description was pretty clear.
And yes, I assume that an adult who has chosen to join a group with a purpose stated up front, is capable of discussion and choosing what they want to share.
For the record, Rachel was asked repeatedly to stop posting and just read for a while (off list...very gently) and chose to completely ignore the suggestion.
Ren
radicalunschooling.blogspot.com
Faith Void
IMO I think that only people with food issues read any hostility. I can hear
the love and sweet redirection of perspectives.
I think that saying that you are willing to show your child horrific
pictures of real violence if they show interest in a video game is abusive.
And I think that if I had a friend who claimed that they would do that I
would surely say something about it. That is over the top, even for
mainstream parenting. That would be horrifically traumatizing.
This is an unschooling board. We are on here because we unschool of because
we are trying to understand unschooling better. They things that Rachel
wrote were not along that lines. In my "real" life I have friends who parent
different. I don't question their parenting or call them on things because
they are choosing NOT to unschool. BUT on here ideas that are out of accords
with unschooling are going to be challenged.
Is there a particulare comment that you felt bashed someone? If not that
perhaps you were also reading into peoples posts.
the love and sweet redirection of perspectives.
I think that saying that you are willing to show your child horrific
pictures of real violence if they show interest in a video game is abusive.
And I think that if I had a friend who claimed that they would do that I
would surely say something about it. That is over the top, even for
mainstream parenting. That would be horrifically traumatizing.
This is an unschooling board. We are on here because we unschool of because
we are trying to understand unschooling better. They things that Rachel
wrote were not along that lines. In my "real" life I have friends who parent
different. I don't question their parenting or call them on things because
they are choosing NOT to unschool. BUT on here ideas that are out of accords
with unschooling are going to be challenged.
Is there a particulare comment that you felt bashed someone? If not that
perhaps you were also reading into peoples posts.
On Tue, Sep 15, 2009 at 2:41 PM, Crystal <crystal@...>wrote:
>
>
> I don't post often but follow most threads. I don't understand something,
> maybe some of you could clarify where you are coming from. Here's the
> thing.
> You all say that you want to teach your children to become independent
> thinkers and voice their own opinions, right? Don't you think, if you do
> this now, they will continue to do that when they get older? So, where am I
> headed with this? Well, as soon as someone comes on here with a different
> opinion or a different way of doing things, they are bashed. Isn't that a
> double standard? I mean, would you really call your kid sick or tell them
> that they have some "sick ways" of doing something? Seriously, would you
> talk to them the same way, or are they your equals but adults are not? I
> know this sounds harsh coming from emails but I am looking at long term
> here, how ARE you going to treat your kids, like you treat some people on
> here? I get that it's awesome to give advice when someone asks for it but
> to
> do it in such a manner as to belittle them, my "opinion" is that it's
> wrong.
> Can we not offer up advice/suggestions without the harshness?
>
> On another note, I have very strong opinions on the food issue but have
> refrained from even contributing to this because of the level of hostility
> that has come with it. It's just not worth it.
>
> Crystal
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
--
http://faithvoid.blogspot.com/
www.bearthmama.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
jrossedd
> > Can we not offer up advice/suggestions without the harshness?Oh, you have no idea the *real* level of hostility stirred in longtime unschoolers like me, by that series of "opinions" being posted here in rapid succession. It's probably lucky for me and the list, that I was reading on digest!
> > On another note, I have very strong opinions on the food issue but have refrained from even contributing to this because of the level of hostility that has come with it. It's just not worth it.
> >
> > Crystal
> >
BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
This is a list to discuss and learn unschooling and gentle parenting.
Ideas that go against it will be put to the test.
Would you go to a Vegan list to defend the idea of eating meat???
If you want to learn more how unschooling kids DON"T just eat Frito Lay products you are very welcome to ask questions.
How about that?
Ask how are kids eat.
My 3 year old today ate Spaghetti Squash , corn on the cob and cherry tomatoes that I picked out of my organic vegetable daughter this morning plus some local chicken I got from the local market.
This minute they are eating a Monkey Platter with a variety of things from Cheez whiz to several fruits and vegetables.
I have many, many high processed candy and snacks in my house since my Dh loves them.
Do my kids only eat those??/ Absolutely not.
My kids are super healthy, lean and extremely tall for their age. I am only 5'4" and my dh 6'.
Why are our kids so tall, lean and healthy if they can eat all the "junk" they want???
Ask us about that!
Alex Polikowsky
http://polykow.blogspot.com/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingmn/
_._,___
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Ideas that go against it will be put to the test.
Would you go to a Vegan list to defend the idea of eating meat???
If you want to learn more how unschooling kids DON"T just eat Frito Lay products you are very welcome to ask questions.
How about that?
Ask how are kids eat.
My 3 year old today ate Spaghetti Squash , corn on the cob and cherry tomatoes that I picked out of my organic vegetable daughter this morning plus some local chicken I got from the local market.
This minute they are eating a Monkey Platter with a variety of things from Cheez whiz to several fruits and vegetables.
I have many, many high processed candy and snacks in my house since my Dh loves them.
Do my kids only eat those??/ Absolutely not.
My kids are super healthy, lean and extremely tall for their age. I am only 5'4" and my dh 6'.
Why are our kids so tall, lean and healthy if they can eat all the "junk" they want???
Ask us about that!
Alex Polikowsky
http://polykow.blogspot.com/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingmn/
_._,___
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
plaidpanties666
--- In [email protected], "Crystal" <crystal@...> wrote:
Most parenting relies on the assumption that parents must periodically be unkind to their children for the sake of the wellbeing of those children. A great deal of parenting revolves around ideas of "for their own good" and "children Have to learn". Unschooling starts from a totally different perspective. We start from the assumption that children Love to learn, that they crave learning! So its not a matter of kids Having to learn anything specific, its a matter of helping children explore the world in ways that let them learn to their hearts content. In the process, they Will learn about their bodies, nutrition, food, math, sciences, literature, ethics, problem solving, communication, courtesy... I could go on and on but you get the idea. We don't have to push one whit of learning on them, they're grabbing for it with both hands all the time.
How do we, unschooling parents, decide "for their own good" what kids should learn and when? We don't. We don't Know what's going to be for their own good - but they, surprisingly often, do know. We can follow their leads and problem solve with them when what they want to learn about has elements of danger in it, for themselves, for others, for the world. But above all, we get to do all of this as kindly and gently as we possibly can. We get to be sweet and caring and say "Yes, let me help you, yes, I want to help, please let me be your friend and helper." We don't Have to lecture, push, demand, or insist on anything the vast majority of the time.
Its marvelously freeing! But figuring out how that's possible is challenging. Many people come to unschooling still thinking "But you gotta make kids do xyz for their own good" - and that gets challenged big time the moment they hit one of these lists because a dozen, two dozen people suddenly speak up for the kids, saying "No, you don't Have to do that" and "It hurts when you do that." That's Hard to read. It was Hard for me, when I was first on an unschooling list, to read that I might not be the wonderful, kind, respectful parent I thought I was. I was mad as hell at Ren and everyone else who told me so (for some reason I remember Ren best, and I think she said something like "you're kids aren't you" Damn her ;)). But at the same time, the core ideas stuck with me. I Didn't have to harden my heart every time I saw hurt little kid eyes and say to myself "its for their own good." I could be gentle.
Its absolutely not necessary to bully kids into eating well. Its not necessary to deny kids things they want so that they'll be good people. Its not necessary to scare kids about the world for them to develop good ethics. Its absolutly Possible to be courteous and gracious and thoughful to children, to help them do and get and be whatever they want, and for those children to turn around and be gracious and thoughtful and have a strong sense of ethics. That's not an opinion. Its a gift. Its the greatest gift any parent can ever receive - the chance to be as good as we want to be with our children.
---Meredith (Mo 8, Ray 15)
>> Well, as soon as someone comes on here with a differentThis is one of the reasons its recommended that newcomers to the list read for a while before posting - there's a particular "style" to unschooling discussion groups that's somewhat unique. Its not a debate style, nor is it a chat or support-group style. Most often, what happens is someone throws out an idea, a scenario or a problem, and then group members reframe the situation taking into account the possible points of view of the children. Exaclty how they phrase that is going to vary depending on individual personalities and writing styles, and a certain amount of how its read can get lost in the "tone" the reader projects onto the writing. Hence the suggestion to pretend any post is being delivered kindly, by a good friend. It changes the way you read in a Biiiiiiig way.
> opinion or a different way of doing things, they are bashed. Isn't that a
> double standard?
Most parenting relies on the assumption that parents must periodically be unkind to their children for the sake of the wellbeing of those children. A great deal of parenting revolves around ideas of "for their own good" and "children Have to learn". Unschooling starts from a totally different perspective. We start from the assumption that children Love to learn, that they crave learning! So its not a matter of kids Having to learn anything specific, its a matter of helping children explore the world in ways that let them learn to their hearts content. In the process, they Will learn about their bodies, nutrition, food, math, sciences, literature, ethics, problem solving, communication, courtesy... I could go on and on but you get the idea. We don't have to push one whit of learning on them, they're grabbing for it with both hands all the time.
How do we, unschooling parents, decide "for their own good" what kids should learn and when? We don't. We don't Know what's going to be for their own good - but they, surprisingly often, do know. We can follow their leads and problem solve with them when what they want to learn about has elements of danger in it, for themselves, for others, for the world. But above all, we get to do all of this as kindly and gently as we possibly can. We get to be sweet and caring and say "Yes, let me help you, yes, I want to help, please let me be your friend and helper." We don't Have to lecture, push, demand, or insist on anything the vast majority of the time.
Its marvelously freeing! But figuring out how that's possible is challenging. Many people come to unschooling still thinking "But you gotta make kids do xyz for their own good" - and that gets challenged big time the moment they hit one of these lists because a dozen, two dozen people suddenly speak up for the kids, saying "No, you don't Have to do that" and "It hurts when you do that." That's Hard to read. It was Hard for me, when I was first on an unschooling list, to read that I might not be the wonderful, kind, respectful parent I thought I was. I was mad as hell at Ren and everyone else who told me so (for some reason I remember Ren best, and I think she said something like "you're kids aren't you" Damn her ;)). But at the same time, the core ideas stuck with me. I Didn't have to harden my heart every time I saw hurt little kid eyes and say to myself "its for their own good." I could be gentle.
Its absolutely not necessary to bully kids into eating well. Its not necessary to deny kids things they want so that they'll be good people. Its not necessary to scare kids about the world for them to develop good ethics. Its absolutly Possible to be courteous and gracious and thoughful to children, to help them do and get and be whatever they want, and for those children to turn around and be gracious and thoughtful and have a strong sense of ethics. That's not an opinion. Its a gift. Its the greatest gift any parent can ever receive - the chance to be as good as we want to be with our children.
---Meredith (Mo 8, Ray 15)
Melissa Gray
Meredith,
Josh really likes the way you said this. He said thanks!
I like it to, for what that's worth. ;-)
Melissa
Mom to Joshua, Breanna, Emily, Rachel, Samuel, Daniel, Avari, and
baby Nathan!
Wife to Zane
blog me at
http://startlinglives.blogspot.com/
http://startlinglives365.blogspot.com
Josh really likes the way you said this. He said thanks!
I like it to, for what that's worth. ;-)
Melissa
Mom to Joshua, Breanna, Emily, Rachel, Samuel, Daniel, Avari, and
baby Nathan!
Wife to Zane
blog me at
http://startlinglives.blogspot.com/
http://startlinglives365.blogspot.com
On Sep 15, 2009, at 7:33 PM, plaidpanties666 wrote:
> --- In [email protected], "Crystal" <crystal@...>
> wrote:
> >> Well, as soon as someone comes on here with a different
> > opinion or a different way of doing things, they are bashed.
> Isn't that a
> > double standard?
>
> This is one of the reasons its recommended that newcomers to the
> list read for a while before posting - there's a particular "style"
> to unschooling discussion groups that's somewhat unique. Its not a
> debate style, nor is it a chat or support-group style. Most often,
> what happens is someone throws out an idea, a scenario or a
> problem, and then group members reframe the situation taking into
> account the possible points of view of the children. Exaclty how
> they phrase that is going to vary depending on individual
> personalities and writing styles, and a certain amount of how its
> read can get lost in the "tone" the reader projects onto the
> writing. Hence the suggestion to pretend any post is being
> delivered kindly, by a good friend. It changes the way you read in
> a Biiiiiiig way.
>
> Most parenting relies on the assumption that parents must
> periodically be unkind to their children for the sake of the
> wellbeing of those children. A great deal of parenting revolves
> around ideas of "for their own good" and "children Have to learn".
> Unschooling starts from a totally different perspective. We start
> from the assumption that children Love to learn, that they crave
> learning! So its not a matter of kids Having to learn anything
> specific, its a matter of helping children explore the world in
> ways that let them learn to their hearts content. In the process,
> they Will learn about their bodies, nutrition, food, math,
> sciences, literature, ethics, problem solving, communication,
> courtesy... I could go on and on but you get the idea. We don't
> have to push one whit of learning on them, they're grabbing for it
> with both hands all the time.
>
> How do we, unschooling parents, decide "for their own good" what
> kids should learn and when? We don't. We don't Know what's going to
> be for their own good - but they, surprisingly often, do know. We
> can follow their leads and problem solve with them when what they
> want to learn about has elements of danger in it, for themselves,
> for others, for the world. But above all, we get to do all of this
> as kindly and gently as we possibly can. We get to be sweet and
> caring and say "Yes, let me help you, yes, I want to help, please
> let me be your friend and helper." We don't Have to lecture, push,
> demand, or insist on anything the vast majority of the time.
>
> Its marvelously freeing! But figuring out how that's possible is
> challenging. Many people come to unschooling still thinking "But
> you gotta make kids do xyz for their own good" - and that gets
> challenged big time the moment they hit one of these lists because
> a dozen, two dozen people suddenly speak up for the kids, saying
> "No, you don't Have to do that" and "It hurts when you do that."
> That's Hard to read. It was Hard for me, when I was first on an
> unschooling list, to read that I might not be the wonderful, kind,
> respectful parent I thought I was. I was mad as hell at Ren and
> everyone else who told me so (for some reason I remember Ren best,
> and I think she said something like "you're kids aren't you" Damn
> her ;)). But at the same time, the core ideas stuck with me. I
> Didn't have to harden my heart every time I saw hurt little kid
> eyes and say to myself "its for their own good." I could be gentle.
>
> Its absolutely not necessary to bully kids into eating well. Its
> not necessary to deny kids things they want so that they'll be good
> people. Its not necessary to scare kids about the world for them to
> develop good ethics. Its absolutly Possible to be courteous and
> gracious and thoughful to children, to help them do and get and be
> whatever they want, and for those children to turn around and be
> gracious and thoughtful and have a strong sense of ethics. That's
> not an opinion. Its a gift. Its the greatest gift any parent can
> ever receive - the chance to be as good as we want to be with our
> children.
>
> ---Meredith (Mo 8, Ray 15)
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Paul & Camille
I loved that Meredith :)
I am new to unschooling, and at first I was reading reading all I could about 'unschooling'. I had heard it mentioned a number of times about the parenting side, but couldnt wrap my head around that really at the time. As Ive listened in and become more accustom to it all, it has suddenly clicked into place for me and its a really wonderful place to be. Not only is it more freeing and lovely for my son, but its the same for me. For example, why have fights over what he wants to eat - you must eat blah blah when hes happy to eat something else. He does have candy sometimes, but is it all he eats - NO, how could it be, lets face it eating candy all day wouldnt make us feel good. Actually he will have some new candy and say nope I dont like that - its no different if it is candy or a fruit, he either likes it or he doesnt.
Anyway Im getting off topic here, but Im really enjoying the way the group is, and I dont believe its bashing anyone else by disagreeing with their opinions, for the most part people were trying to help give her a different perspective & help her see the gentler way - However, I dont think things like cooking kittens on the BBQ, or showing kids pics of dead babies lying by their slaughtered Moms is ever going to be tolerated anywhere - and it actually IS a sick thought - I know I felt sick. Im sorry that Rachel didnt listen more and was so upset and defensive; but Im not sorry that people told her how offensive what she said was, because it was. Also the 'bashing' was due to these comments and not before, so in reality Rachel instigated the situation from my POV.
Camille
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I am new to unschooling, and at first I was reading reading all I could about 'unschooling'. I had heard it mentioned a number of times about the parenting side, but couldnt wrap my head around that really at the time. As Ive listened in and become more accustom to it all, it has suddenly clicked into place for me and its a really wonderful place to be. Not only is it more freeing and lovely for my son, but its the same for me. For example, why have fights over what he wants to eat - you must eat blah blah when hes happy to eat something else. He does have candy sometimes, but is it all he eats - NO, how could it be, lets face it eating candy all day wouldnt make us feel good. Actually he will have some new candy and say nope I dont like that - its no different if it is candy or a fruit, he either likes it or he doesnt.
Anyway Im getting off topic here, but Im really enjoying the way the group is, and I dont believe its bashing anyone else by disagreeing with their opinions, for the most part people were trying to help give her a different perspective & help her see the gentler way - However, I dont think things like cooking kittens on the BBQ, or showing kids pics of dead babies lying by their slaughtered Moms is ever going to be tolerated anywhere - and it actually IS a sick thought - I know I felt sick. Im sorry that Rachel didnt listen more and was so upset and defensive; but Im not sorry that people told her how offensive what she said was, because it was. Also the 'bashing' was due to these comments and not before, so in reality Rachel instigated the situation from my POV.
Camille
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce Fetteroll
On Sep 15, 2009, at 2:41 PM, Crystal wrote:
trust that as we tackle together the bumps in life between them and
what they want, as we trust them to be thinking, loving creatures --
even before they've picked up the skills that demonstrate their
capacity to others, that they will pick up the skills to be more and
more independent.
It's an important distinction for unschoolers! Conventional thinking
puts teaching and learning in the same box, emphasizing what's the
same about them: both being about changes happening inside the child.
Unschooling thinking puts them in separate boxes to emphasize their
differences. Teaching is about moving information into someone else.
Learning is about pulling it in (often without realizing it!)
It helps someone see unschooling clearer if they remove the idea of
teaching from their tool box. It's not that kids won't be learning
tons from us! But it helps people learn to reframe the standard
questions that normally lead to solutions involving pushing
information into kids or controlling their behavior. Like "How do I
get them to treat each other nicer?" "How do I get them to eat
healthier?" "How do I get them to stop watching so much TV?"
The better questions to ask are "How can I help meet their needs?"
"How can I create an environment that makes it easier to choose
what's safe and respectful?" and "How can I stop worrying?" ;-)
*Support* lists are where people are nurtured and soothed for where
they are. By signing onto a *discussion* list, someone is saying
"Help me figure out how to do this." Support lists are like a chat in
a cafe where people compare their aches and pains and soothe each
other. Discussion lists are more like information booths where we
focus on where someone wants to get in the most efficient way
possible. (That's not a great analogy because for those who love
discussion lists, they feel like a lively cafe where the discussion
is focused and intense. :-)
A discussion list is like a when a child decides they need help with
something and asks. It would be rude to offer words of support for
how great they are as human beings. They're *saying* I'm not getting
this and need help.
I *know* some people are saying: "But the help doesn't need to be
rude!" ;-) (The help, though, to Rachel at the beginning was patient.
She was amused by this home's owner asking her to follow the house
rules. *She* insisted, after Ren asked her to read more and post
less, that her ideas were more important than the ideas the people
on the list had gathered to explore.)
As for the perceived rudeness of responses, what's hard for many
people to grasp about discussion lists is that each response is
intended to help anyone who is following a thread, not just the
original poster. We're discussing the ideas people bring up, not
individuals -- even though someone's personal experience is used as a
way to discuss broader ideas. To help the people who signed on for
the purpose of the list, we need to discuss ways around the stumbling
blocks people bring up.
My personal opinion is that support groups feel more helpful than
they really are. The purpose often is to help people feel better
about who they are, feel better about not being perfect. But that
helps them feel better about going with the flow and letting change
happen slowly. But kids don't have years to wait while parents learn.
Conventional parenting*, conventional schooling is slowly and
insidiously damaging to children's psyches and the relationships
between them and their parents.
(* Maybe it's better written as protective parenting and prophylactic
schooling, since what Rachel wrote wasn't conventional but it was
protective as she presented ways to scare her children away from the
video games she believed even were scarier than pictures of dead
children. That's some *big* baggage that's going to hurt her kids and
her relationship with them if they ever dare think that a violent
video game is intriguing.)
Joyce
> You all say that you want to teach your children to become independentI know it's not the point of your post, but we don't teach them. We
> thinkers and voice their own opinions, right?
trust that as we tackle together the bumps in life between them and
what they want, as we trust them to be thinking, loving creatures --
even before they've picked up the skills that demonstrate their
capacity to others, that they will pick up the skills to be more and
more independent.
It's an important distinction for unschoolers! Conventional thinking
puts teaching and learning in the same box, emphasizing what's the
same about them: both being about changes happening inside the child.
Unschooling thinking puts them in separate boxes to emphasize their
differences. Teaching is about moving information into someone else.
Learning is about pulling it in (often without realizing it!)
It helps someone see unschooling clearer if they remove the idea of
teaching from their tool box. It's not that kids won't be learning
tons from us! But it helps people learn to reframe the standard
questions that normally lead to solutions involving pushing
information into kids or controlling their behavior. Like "How do I
get them to treat each other nicer?" "How do I get them to eat
healthier?" "How do I get them to stop watching so much TV?"
The better questions to ask are "How can I help meet their needs?"
"How can I create an environment that makes it easier to choose
what's safe and respectful?" and "How can I stop worrying?" ;-)
*Support* lists are where people are nurtured and soothed for where
they are. By signing onto a *discussion* list, someone is saying
"Help me figure out how to do this." Support lists are like a chat in
a cafe where people compare their aches and pains and soothe each
other. Discussion lists are more like information booths where we
focus on where someone wants to get in the most efficient way
possible. (That's not a great analogy because for those who love
discussion lists, they feel like a lively cafe where the discussion
is focused and intense. :-)
A discussion list is like a when a child decides they need help with
something and asks. It would be rude to offer words of support for
how great they are as human beings. They're *saying* I'm not getting
this and need help.
I *know* some people are saying: "But the help doesn't need to be
rude!" ;-) (The help, though, to Rachel at the beginning was patient.
She was amused by this home's owner asking her to follow the house
rules. *She* insisted, after Ren asked her to read more and post
less, that her ideas were more important than the ideas the people
on the list had gathered to explore.)
As for the perceived rudeness of responses, what's hard for many
people to grasp about discussion lists is that each response is
intended to help anyone who is following a thread, not just the
original poster. We're discussing the ideas people bring up, not
individuals -- even though someone's personal experience is used as a
way to discuss broader ideas. To help the people who signed on for
the purpose of the list, we need to discuss ways around the stumbling
blocks people bring up.
My personal opinion is that support groups feel more helpful than
they really are. The purpose often is to help people feel better
about who they are, feel better about not being perfect. But that
helps them feel better about going with the flow and letting change
happen slowly. But kids don't have years to wait while parents learn.
Conventional parenting*, conventional schooling is slowly and
insidiously damaging to children's psyches and the relationships
between them and their parents.
(* Maybe it's better written as protective parenting and prophylactic
schooling, since what Rachel wrote wasn't conventional but it was
protective as she presented ways to scare her children away from the
video games she believed even were scarier than pictures of dead
children. That's some *big* baggage that's going to hurt her kids and
her relationship with them if they ever dare think that a violent
video game is intriguing.)
Joyce
Joyce Fetteroll
On Sep 15, 2009, at 2:41 PM, Crystal wrote:
their identity tied to their choices. They're willing to hold up
their choices and examine them in public to find something better.
Other people feel their identity tied to their decisions. When faced
with questions about their choices, they feel as though they
personally were being examined and their flaws pointed out.
I think part of the problem is that most of us never learned how to
make decisions. We may have been raised to toe the line our parents
laid out for us. Going beyond that line can be nerve wracking because
we don't know how to look at a situation objectively and weigh the
pros and cons to make an informed decision. Many people are relieved
to grasp the solution feels least scary and hope for the best. To ask
them to question their decision fills them with fear and doubt. But
their goal is a protective bubble that keeps away the fears. They
don't want to question because they don't feel confident they can
clearly think through all the factors and learn what they need to
learn to come up with the right answer.
Most of us are like that in some aspects of life. Some people enjoy
the inner workings of cars. Some would rather hand it over to a
mechanic they hope they can trust and get it fixed.
But here, on this list, the purpose is to examine our choices. We
discuss *why* something works; and why something else appears to work
but is doing silent damage; and why this way will move you toward a
better relationship and that way will move you away. We don't just
open up the hood, we delve into the inner workings and talk about why
things work.
I think the biggest flaw of conventional parenting is that it treats
kids as though they were alien creatures who work differently than
adults. Conventional parenting has parents treating their kids in
ways they would never treat a friend for fear of losing their
friendship. (Of course
But there *is* a way to be a child's supporter and help them navigate
through their childhood in a way that allows them to blossom into
trustworthy, competent adults. We don't need to sacrifice our
relationships in order to have that. We can put relationship first
and fit everything around that. If someone wants to know how to do
that, there are people here who've figure out how to do that and can
answer questions. If someone has a need to share their own ideas that
lead away from better relationships, this isn't the place for it.
Rachel's ideas aren't being dismissed. They've been thoroughly
examined for ways they damage kids and relationships. We have ideas
that don't compromise on those, that *also* protects our kids from
real well examined dangers.
It's much more comforting to soothe our fears than to examine them.
It's reasonable to assume what we fear is more complex than we can
understand and so it's better to be safe and avoid the danger than
sorry. It's reasonable to fear that kids playing realistic shooting
games will eventually find the thrill and challenge of the game isn't
enough. It's not a great stretch to picture the Columbine shooters as
being influenced by the the violent movies they watched and violent
video games (like Doom) they played. It's one of the things that set
them apart from other students so fear makes us want to connect it.
Raising kids right seems like a crap shoot so we want to control as
much as we can.
But control isn't the answer. Control -- just as with any human being
-- drives them away. (If we have a choice, do we choose a dictator
boss or one who meshes leadership and teamwork?) Thought and
examination are better. But most people don't have access to a huge
chunk of people who are doing all the things you shouldn't, examining
the results and tweaking what they're doing ;-) Right here we have a
huge experiment going on with freedom with video games and food and
learning. People here have the goal of great relationships and
helping their kids navigate the world safely and respectfully. It's
wisdom that anyone examining their fears about the "shouldn't"s in
life can tap into if they ask. If someone comes in and insists
violent video games are so frighteningly dangerous that to keep kids
away she will show her kids pictures of dead children, that idea is
so counter to the reality we see in our own kids that it needs a big
"Whoa!" That's a great big fear built on nothing but fear. It's not
something that will help anyone build a better relationship with
their kids! And if they want to, they need to crawl out of that
protective bunker and see what the real world looks like.
Joyce
>I think one kind of person accepts they're imperfect and doesn't see
> Well, as soon as someone comes on here with a different
> opinion or a different way of doing things, they are bashed.
their identity tied to their choices. They're willing to hold up
their choices and examine them in public to find something better.
Other people feel their identity tied to their decisions. When faced
with questions about their choices, they feel as though they
personally were being examined and their flaws pointed out.
I think part of the problem is that most of us never learned how to
make decisions. We may have been raised to toe the line our parents
laid out for us. Going beyond that line can be nerve wracking because
we don't know how to look at a situation objectively and weigh the
pros and cons to make an informed decision. Many people are relieved
to grasp the solution feels least scary and hope for the best. To ask
them to question their decision fills them with fear and doubt. But
their goal is a protective bubble that keeps away the fears. They
don't want to question because they don't feel confident they can
clearly think through all the factors and learn what they need to
learn to come up with the right answer.
Most of us are like that in some aspects of life. Some people enjoy
the inner workings of cars. Some would rather hand it over to a
mechanic they hope they can trust and get it fixed.
But here, on this list, the purpose is to examine our choices. We
discuss *why* something works; and why something else appears to work
but is doing silent damage; and why this way will move you toward a
better relationship and that way will move you away. We don't just
open up the hood, we delve into the inner workings and talk about why
things work.
I think the biggest flaw of conventional parenting is that it treats
kids as though they were alien creatures who work differently than
adults. Conventional parenting has parents treating their kids in
ways they would never treat a friend for fear of losing their
friendship. (Of course
But there *is* a way to be a child's supporter and help them navigate
through their childhood in a way that allows them to blossom into
trustworthy, competent adults. We don't need to sacrifice our
relationships in order to have that. We can put relationship first
and fit everything around that. If someone wants to know how to do
that, there are people here who've figure out how to do that and can
answer questions. If someone has a need to share their own ideas that
lead away from better relationships, this isn't the place for it.
Rachel's ideas aren't being dismissed. They've been thoroughly
examined for ways they damage kids and relationships. We have ideas
that don't compromise on those, that *also* protects our kids from
real well examined dangers.
It's much more comforting to soothe our fears than to examine them.
It's reasonable to assume what we fear is more complex than we can
understand and so it's better to be safe and avoid the danger than
sorry. It's reasonable to fear that kids playing realistic shooting
games will eventually find the thrill and challenge of the game isn't
enough. It's not a great stretch to picture the Columbine shooters as
being influenced by the the violent movies they watched and violent
video games (like Doom) they played. It's one of the things that set
them apart from other students so fear makes us want to connect it.
Raising kids right seems like a crap shoot so we want to control as
much as we can.
But control isn't the answer. Control -- just as with any human being
-- drives them away. (If we have a choice, do we choose a dictator
boss or one who meshes leadership and teamwork?) Thought and
examination are better. But most people don't have access to a huge
chunk of people who are doing all the things you shouldn't, examining
the results and tweaking what they're doing ;-) Right here we have a
huge experiment going on with freedom with video games and food and
learning. People here have the goal of great relationships and
helping their kids navigate the world safely and respectfully. It's
wisdom that anyone examining their fears about the "shouldn't"s in
life can tap into if they ask. If someone comes in and insists
violent video games are so frighteningly dangerous that to keep kids
away she will show her kids pictures of dead children, that idea is
so counter to the reality we see in our own kids that it needs a big
"Whoa!" That's a great big fear built on nothing but fear. It's not
something that will help anyone build a better relationship with
their kids! And if they want to, they need to crawl out of that
protective bunker and see what the real world looks like.
Joyce
Joyce Fetteroll
On Sep 16, 2009, at 6:43 AM, Joyce Fetteroll wrote:
aren't all equals stumbling along doing the best we can trying to be
the best parents we can be.
That sounds snooty ;-) But we aren't just guessing. We're tearing
ideas apart and examining them. We're seeing what happens in real
life with our own kids and others kids. We're asking *why*
unschoolers see different results than conventional parents and
different results than 90% of the people say we will. We're holding
relationships as the central core of the belief system and finding
ways not to compromise that as we fit in the rest of life.
If we tell people that a certain tool they've depended on -- like
control, like timeouts, like consequences -- isn't part of the
repertoire here, it's natural for them to assume we then do nothing.
It's sort of like telling someone in LA that you don't have a car.
Their natural first thought might be "So you never leave the house?"
But the real answer is you might walk. Someone needs to get out of
the sprawling city of control and school in order to understand how
to navigate a life where the essentials are in walking distance.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> But most people don't have access to a hugeI think one of the things some new people don't realize is that we
> chunk of people who are doing all the things you shouldn't, examining
> the results and tweaking what they're doing ;-)
aren't all equals stumbling along doing the best we can trying to be
the best parents we can be.
That sounds snooty ;-) But we aren't just guessing. We're tearing
ideas apart and examining them. We're seeing what happens in real
life with our own kids and others kids. We're asking *why*
unschoolers see different results than conventional parents and
different results than 90% of the people say we will. We're holding
relationships as the central core of the belief system and finding
ways not to compromise that as we fit in the rest of life.
If we tell people that a certain tool they've depended on -- like
control, like timeouts, like consequences -- isn't part of the
repertoire here, it's natural for them to assume we then do nothing.
It's sort of like telling someone in LA that you don't have a car.
Their natural first thought might be "So you never leave the house?"
But the real answer is you might walk. Someone needs to get out of
the sprawling city of control and school in order to understand how
to navigate a life where the essentials are in walking distance.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Deb Lewis
***You all say that you want to teach your children to become independent
thinkers and voice their own opinions,***
I don't want to "teach" my child. Please read here: www.sandradodd.com/teaching/
I don't believe my child needs anyone to "teach" him to think for himself. He was born with his own brain. He has his own experiences. He needs to feel free to think differently from me and his dad. Do you want to talk about the difference?
***as soon as someone comes on here with a different
opinion or a different way of doing things, they are bashed.***
Maybe you could read the posting guidelines again. If you disagree with the way other posters are responding to posts, take responsibility and post the way you believe would better contribute to understanding.
People who want to offer advice here should be certain it will help people understand unschooling. If a person is new to the idea of unschooling and offers advice that will muddle understanding then we have a responsibility to point that out. This list has a specific purpose.
***I mean, would you really call your kid sick or tell them
that they have some "sick ways" of doing something? ***
If my son showed a child or anyone a gruesome photo they did not want to see I would *absolutely* tell him to stop and never do it again and tell him why. That's really twisted. Seriously.
***Seriously, would you
talk to them the same way, or are they your equals but adults are not?***
Do you think adults who join a discussion list want to be treated like children? Do you need me or other posters here to be your mom? I'm not being snarky, I'm asking pointedly so you can try to make the distinction between discussion on a list with two thousand strangers and what happens at home between mother and child.
***how ARE you going to treat your kids, like you treat some people on
here?***
Most and probably all of us are unschooling because we've thought a lot about traditional parenting and the importance of living respectfully with children. Many people here have been writing on lists for years in order to help other people understand the value of living respectfully with their kids. My kid is not a mother who deliberately controls what her little children see and eat and think in order to make sure they end up thinking exactly like her, so there's no reason for me to tell him the same things I'd tell that woman. I don't need to tell my son not to show little children pictures of dead people. He already knows that's abusive. If all the people who came to this list had the same understanding of the value of unschooling and living respectfully with children that my son has, there'd be no reason to maintain the list.
But some people who come here chose to post without reading the guidelines, or the archives, without much understanding of unschooling or the purpose of the list and so they get information about those things.
***Can we not offer up advice/suggestions without the harshness? ***
"We" are all different people with different styles. Where you see harshness others see honesty, frankness, directness. If you do not like the way someone is posting, remind yourself you don't get to control how others chose to respond but you have absolute control over yourself. Post the way you think is best. Let others do the same.
*** I have very strong opinions on the food issue but have
refrained from even contributing to this because of the level of hostility
that has come with it. It's just not worth it.***
If your opinion will not help others understand unschooling then it doesn't belong on this list. If you don't understand why controlling food does not contribute positively to unschooling then ask questions. Questions about how unschooling parents have addressed food concerns belong here.
Deb Lewis
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
thinkers and voice their own opinions,***
I don't want to "teach" my child. Please read here: www.sandradodd.com/teaching/
I don't believe my child needs anyone to "teach" him to think for himself. He was born with his own brain. He has his own experiences. He needs to feel free to think differently from me and his dad. Do you want to talk about the difference?
***as soon as someone comes on here with a different
opinion or a different way of doing things, they are bashed.***
Maybe you could read the posting guidelines again. If you disagree with the way other posters are responding to posts, take responsibility and post the way you believe would better contribute to understanding.
People who want to offer advice here should be certain it will help people understand unschooling. If a person is new to the idea of unschooling and offers advice that will muddle understanding then we have a responsibility to point that out. This list has a specific purpose.
***I mean, would you really call your kid sick or tell them
that they have some "sick ways" of doing something? ***
If my son showed a child or anyone a gruesome photo they did not want to see I would *absolutely* tell him to stop and never do it again and tell him why. That's really twisted. Seriously.
***Seriously, would you
talk to them the same way, or are they your equals but adults are not?***
Do you think adults who join a discussion list want to be treated like children? Do you need me or other posters here to be your mom? I'm not being snarky, I'm asking pointedly so you can try to make the distinction between discussion on a list with two thousand strangers and what happens at home between mother and child.
***how ARE you going to treat your kids, like you treat some people on
here?***
Most and probably all of us are unschooling because we've thought a lot about traditional parenting and the importance of living respectfully with children. Many people here have been writing on lists for years in order to help other people understand the value of living respectfully with their kids. My kid is not a mother who deliberately controls what her little children see and eat and think in order to make sure they end up thinking exactly like her, so there's no reason for me to tell him the same things I'd tell that woman. I don't need to tell my son not to show little children pictures of dead people. He already knows that's abusive. If all the people who came to this list had the same understanding of the value of unschooling and living respectfully with children that my son has, there'd be no reason to maintain the list.
But some people who come here chose to post without reading the guidelines, or the archives, without much understanding of unschooling or the purpose of the list and so they get information about those things.
***Can we not offer up advice/suggestions without the harshness? ***
"We" are all different people with different styles. Where you see harshness others see honesty, frankness, directness. If you do not like the way someone is posting, remind yourself you don't get to control how others chose to respond but you have absolute control over yourself. Post the way you think is best. Let others do the same.
*** I have very strong opinions on the food issue but have
refrained from even contributing to this because of the level of hostility
that has come with it. It's just not worth it.***
If your opinion will not help others understand unschooling then it doesn't belong on this list. If you don't understand why controlling food does not contribute positively to unschooling then ask questions. Questions about how unschooling parents have addressed food concerns belong here.
Deb Lewis
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]