Suni

I wasnt really sure which to reply to, this one or the one that used
to be consensus. My thought is: i did not know that one could apply
unschooling to all of life! i really love my son and i dont want to
put the same constraints on him that i had as a child. i remember
having to clean my room, wash the dishes, clean the entire kitchen,
clean the bathroom, and dust...all of which i hated more and more as
time went on as my mother and father forced me. now i cant stand
cleaning! i cant stand it!! i have to force myself to do it
sometimes, and other times im happy to do it. i find that my husband
can be the same way as my parents when it comes to stuff like that.
when given my space and time and CONFIDENCE FROM OTHERS, i end up
doing everything with time to spare...and doing it right the FIRST
time. i dont want to make my son feel the same way as i did (and do)
about household things. i am near tears now just thinking about it
all. i am do desparate to make the right choices about how to raise
him... i had to undo a lot that was done to me and i really dont
want him to have to do the same. he makes his own choices about lots
of things now, like when he wants to clean up his toys and what he
wants to wear, what he wants to eat and when, what he wants to drink
and when...and especially what he wants to learn and when. pretty
much the only things he doesnt dictate are when he goes to bed and
when he gets his diaper changed. i know he is not even 2, but he is
such an awesome kid! i dont want to screw it up for him. im gonna
stop now before i repeat myself... thoughts????

[email protected]

In a message dated 11/23/2004 7:25:58 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
kingzjewel@... writes:

wasnt really sure which to reply to, this one or the one that used
to be consensus. My thought is: i did not know that one could apply
unschooling to all of life!<<<<

BOY! Did *you* pick the right list! <BWG>

It can be a wonderful life if you can let go enough to trust that your son
will learn *everything* he needs to know when he needs to know it.

You're on the right track! Now----about that bedtime thing.....! <g>

He knows when he's sleepy! We promise. Trust him!

~Kelly





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: Suni <kingzjewel@...>
> i know he is not even 2, but he is
such an awesome kid! i dont want to screw it up for him. im gonna
stop now before i repeat myself... thoughts????<

My only thought is that, being human, you're going to screw up, so you'd be better off accepting it now. ; ) Seriously, there's great opportunity there, as when you apologize and reconcile with your kid, you're being a great role model. So don't fear screwups...that can paralyze you. From where I sit, you're a very conscious parent who is already helping your child lead his best life.

Michelle B.

Angela White

I don't know how to handle my 5.5yo dd music lessons in an unschooling
way.

I introduced my dd to Suzuki violin lessons 3 months ago. I wasn't
keen on the idea at first because I didn't want to have to make her
practice. But because they were Suzuki lessons and I had heard (but not
read) about John Holt's Never to late, I thought it would be ok.

At first it was and my dd really loves all the games the music teacher
plays. But the time without the real violin (practicing on a broken one
without strings and a rod) dragged on and she got tired of the many
'games' we had to practice. Finally she got her real violin and went
around for days picking it up and playing on it. So I thought 'we're
away'.

But lately it has gotten to the point where it is just 'having to
practice' no matter how many imaginary games the teacher comes up with
to help her keep the bow straight etc. She gets frustrated when she
can't get it right and also as more and more playing is added that has
to be practiced.
I have been learning the violin along side her as is required by the
Suzuki method. To start off I found it harder to motivate myself to
practice. I used to play guitar and had thought I could learn it easily
because of that, but it wasn't. My fingers didn't find the right spot
on the fingerboard and my arm got tired so quickly holding the violin
up. Just to get a comfortable hold of it under my chin took weeks. So I
was kind of despondent when my dd showed signs of that same
frustration. If I as her coach was not feeling great how could she?

I kept on going however and have just got to a point where the basic
stuff comes more easily. Because I'm musical I have started to play
other tunes and also palying more advanced pieces that come further on
in the book. Some nights I play for nearly an hour until my arm just
can't hold up anymore. It is fun now.
It was like that too when I learned the guitar at 10yo. I haf begged
for lessons and when finally got some I just loved playing. Nobody had
to say 'go and practice'.

So I find it so disheartening when I see my 5.5yo dd unhappiness. I can
see that she actually likes the instrument and the playing, but at the
lesson and also at home (I'm expected to correct her) she gets
corrected and I think it overwhelmes her now and she is thinking that
it is just too hard. but I think the thought of the music teacher is
that if we don't correct her, she will learn a bad posture, fingering
etc and it will be hard to unlearn.
the music teacher is very very nice and very positive. she does all the
corrections in a very positive way and mostly non verbal. She used
imagination to try and help. Songs, ryhmes etc. But in the end, it's
still a correction. I understand how my dd feels because sometimes at
the beginning I remember feeling a little like that too 'this is so
hard to do, I feel like giving up'.

I might also not be doing it the best way. I feel like playing one
piece just one time is not enough and try and get her to play a little
more. I offer to play with her and that helps but i can't play and
correct her posture at the same time. if I don't correct anything she
isn't feeling to bad, but then she is holding her bow very wrong and
playing out of tune etc. How much sense is there in practicing it the
wrong way?

The problem with music lessons is that one really has to practice in
between. Otherwise you turn up at every lesson at the same point as you
where before.
Do unschooled kids learn instruments with regular lessons? Do they
start later? I think it is better for kids to start later but the
Suzuki people want them to start as early a poss. there is lots about
the Suzuki method my dd loves. She loves the concerts per term (she's
just played in her first one). She loves the group lessons each week
and she still mostly loves the lessons. She wants to learn to play.

How would John Holt hepl a child to learn an instrument? Has anyone
read his book on how he learned the Cello? i can't get that book atm so
any feedback greatly appreciated. I don't want to spoil it all for her.
And I don't want to have to make her practice. Shall her just ignore
the teacher's instructions on how often to practice something and only
let her do it how and how many times she wants?

Angela

Fetteroll

on 11/24/04 5:01 AM, Angela White at wordshop@... wrote:

> How much sense is there in practicing it the
> wrong way?

It depends what your goal is.

Is your goal mastery of the violin for your daughter?

Or is it for her to have a positive experience with music?

Joyce

Angela S

Angela White wrote:

Shall her just ignore
the teacher's instructions on how often to practice something and only
let her do it how and how many times she wants?





That's what I would do; I'd let her practice when and how much she wants to.
I would think that forcing a 5 yo to practice would only make her dislike it
more. If she is enjoying the lessons then let her continue them. If she
isn't, find something else to spend your money on. You can still take
lessons if it appeals to you.

Angela ~ Maine

game-enthusiast@...





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

> The problem with music lessons is that one really has to practice in
> between. Otherwise you turn up at every lesson at the same point as you
> where before.

There is the key. If she is enjoying playing how she wants and only practicing when she wants, then when she goes back to a lesson she won't have progressed. This may become boring for her after a while and when she complains that she wants new you can talk about how practicing what you have learned helps you progress. If she is enjoying the lessons and enjoying playing (even with poor posture) then perhaps letting her play with poor posture is what she needs to do right now.

Is there another music program in town that she could be involved in? Some kids learn well under Suzuki and some kids do better under a different, more relaxed, instruction. I know that they do lots of games in Suzuki, but they also have a certain expectation. Perhaps ask at your local college or university to see if there are some students that are looking to teach for some extra cash. They might be open to think outside the box as to how to encourage needed practice.

My story: My mom made me take piano when I was a kid. We had a lady in our neighborhood and she taught piano, so mom sent us down there every week for 6 years. I hated it. I loved playing the piano, but I hated the lessons and the discipline and having to practice the pieces that she selected. It was fun at first, but I didn't want to learn classical piano. I didn't want to play Schubert and Beethoven (although I loved Mozart LOL!) I wanted to play things I could sing to. In middle school through college I was involved in chorus and took vocal music lessons. The 6 years of piano that I took helped me pick out the music for my vocal lessons. I sometimes wish that I had stuck with the piano because I do love playing (and have started to pick it back up) but I think that a different style of music would have been better. Someone who taught me to play songs (since my motivation was singing) would have probably gotten me to practice more sicne I would want to sing while I played.

BTW, we still have my piano and the kids have a few beginner piano books. They all can play various pieces by ear and I figure if any of them decide that they want more formal instructions then I will look into it for them. I don't think that learning as an older child is undoable. Look at all the kids who go to college with music scholarships who never picked up an oboe (or clarinet or viola) until they were in middle school when music is finally offered in the public school systems. The major point is desire. If a child has the desire to learn then the child will. And they will practice because it is something that they want to do.

Question: Has she had enough lessons that she would be able to "play at" the violin to amuse herself and enjoy doing it? Perhaps if she was able to just enjoy her violin she would eventually decide that she wants to pursue more formal training.

Michelle

Daniel MacIntyre

wasn't there some talk about how Suzuki today has gone away from the
originator's concept - I believe there was a lot more about it in
synch with unschooling then than there is now.


On Wed, 24 Nov 2004 9:34:20 -0500, wieldingwords@...
<wieldingwords@...> wrote:
>
>
> > The problem with music lessons is that one really has to practice in
> > between. Otherwise you turn up at every lesson at the same point as you
> > where before.
>
> There is the key. If she is enjoying playing how she wants and only practicing when she wants, then when she goes back to a lesson she won't have progressed. This may become boring for her after a while and when she complains that she wants new you can talk about how practicing what you have learned helps you progress. If she is enjoying the lessons and enjoying playing (even with poor posture) then perhaps letting her play with poor posture is what she needs to do right now.
>
> Is there another music program in town that she could be involved in? Some kids learn well under Suzuki and some kids do better under a different, more relaxed, instruction. I know that they do lots of games in Suzuki, but they also have a certain expectation. Perhaps ask at your local college or university to see if there are some students that are looking to teach for some extra cash. They might be open to think outside the box as to how to encourage needed practice.
>
> My story: My mom made me take piano when I was a kid. We had a lady in our neighborhood and she taught piano, so mom sent us down there every week for 6 years. I hated it. I loved playing the piano, but I hated the lessons and the discipline and having to practice the pieces that she selected. It was fun at first, but I didn't want to learn classical piano. I didn't want to play Schubert and Beethoven (although I loved Mozart LOL!) I wanted to play things I could sing to. In middle school through college I was involved in chorus and took vocal music lessons. The 6 years of piano that I took helped me pick out the music for my vocal lessons. I sometimes wish that I had stuck with the piano because I do love playing (and have started to pick it back up) but I think that a different style of music would have been better. Someone who taught me to play songs (since my motivation was singing) would have probably gotten me to practice more sicne I would want to sing while I played.
>
> BTW, we still have my piano and the kids have a few beginner piano books. They all can play various pieces by ear and I figure if any of them decide that they want more formal instructions then I will look into it for them. I don't think that learning as an older child is undoable. Look at all the kids who go to college with music scholarships who never picked up an oboe (or clarinet or viola) until they were in middle school when music is finally offered in the public school systems. The major point is desire. If a child has the desire to learn then the child will. And they will practice because it is something that they want to do.
>
> Question: Has she had enough lessons that she would be able to "play at" the violin to amuse herself and enjoy doing it? Perhaps if she was able to just enjoy her violin she would eventually decide that she wants to pursue more formal training.
>
> Michelle
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>

Dana Matt

> How would John Holt hepl a child to learn an
> instrument?

I can't vouch for John Holt ;), but let me tell you
what we did. My 6 yo found a yamaha keyboard at
costco and really thought it was fun, so we bought it.
Right away we learned how to do all the fun
stuff--making it bark like a dog, making it sound like
a car crash--so she knows how to get it to do what she
wants. It just sits next to the computer here, and
she turns it on whenever the muse strikes. It has a
"piano lessons" section where it will teach you which
notes to play, but it accompanies the player so
whatever you play always sounds beautiful, no matter
what level you play at (boy, I wish I would have had
that as a kid!) She also found a small electronic
keyboard built in to a book on the clearance rack at
Barnes and Noble, which taught how to play with
colored spots matching the notes--like 12 nursury
ryhme songs that she knows. She can now transpose
them onto the large keyboard, even though there are no
colored dots on it. So, she's 6, and she can play
about 14 songs, completely self-taught, and that makes
her unbelievably happy. She can also make me think
there's a car wreck or rabid dogs out my window ;)

Dana



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mamaaj2000

--- In [email protected], Angela White
<wordshop@p...> wrote:
> The problem with music lessons is that one really has to practice
in
> between. Otherwise you turn up at every lesson at the same point as
you
> where before.

So...do you have to take lessons every week? What about a lesson
being something that happens after practicing has occured because
that's when she'd need it. Don't know if she'd be convinced at this
point, since she likes the program and might see this as punishment
for not practicing...

--aj

Ren Allen

"Do unschooled kids learn instruments with regular lessons? Do they
start later? I think it is better for kids to start later but the
Suzuki people want them to start as early a poss. "

What really matters here? What the Suzuki people think, or what your
dd thinks?
I believe pushing early music lessons in a child is a great way to
suck the joy out of it. If you want a virtuoso, push hard. If you
want an unschooled, happy child that makes her own choices, back off.

Michelle wrote about her experience with piano lessons, this was
very similar to my own piano experiences. There was virtually NO joy
in the process, it was drudgery to me. But I love the piano, and I'd
give anything to have one today (a dream in process), but I'd hate
it again if anyone forced lessons on me.

When my oldest ds, Trevor (13 at the time), asked for guitar
lessons, we purposely searched for an instructor that would let HIM
choose the music he would learn. Trevor would bring in CD's or
requests and his teacher would show him the chords. As he learned
the songs he loved, he slowly picked up the names of chords and
other details. He didn't learn the chords first, in order to play,
he played in order to learn. It worked wonderfully for him.
He took lessons for a year and then stopped. He plays only for his
own enjoyment...isn't that the essence of music anyway?

Back off and let her use the lessons exactly how she wants. Offer to
let her stop lessons all together. Violin may not be her favorite
instrument anyway....let her explore music freely, just like the
rest of her learning experiences.
I think if you feel the need to satisfy Suzuki, or some level of
playing, it's all about the parent at that point, and not the joy of
exploring music for the child.
I've had to really do some self examination when I felt like pushing
one of my children to continue with something they were done
with....it was an ego thing for me and I had to breathe deep and let
it go!:)
You could spend years trying to get her to play the violin just so
and later she ends up loving saxaphone more. Let her take what she
wants from this and leave the rest behind. She's only FIVE! Suzuki
is trying to turn out prodigies, you're just trying to allow a five
year old to joyfully explore the world. Right?

Ren

Ren Allen

"So, she's 6, and she can play
about 14 songs, completely self-taught, "

That's very cool!
Sandra told a story at Kelly's house after the 2003 conference....I
can't remember who it was about (One of your dd's PamS?) but she had
visited the house and saw simple sheet music on the piano. As she
visited in subsequent years, the music got more and more difficult,
she assumed the child was progressing with her lessons.
At some point, she was talking to them and realized that all of
those years, the child had been self-taught. She was progressing all
on her own, without any lessons. Pretty cool!
I may not be telling this exactly correct, so I hope whoever this is
about can actually speak up and tell the story. It's fabulous how
these unschooled minds work.

Ren

[email protected]

> I've had to really do some self examination when I felt like pushing
> one of my children to continue with something they were done
> with....it was an ego thing for me and I had to breathe deep and let
> it go!:)

I had to really bite my tongue the other day. I took Mary Elayne to gymnastics and the mothers were talking about how they were making their children "finish commitments." One mother made her daughter take karate until she had earned her black belt (at 11-ish years old) because she had expressed interest in karate then decided she didn't like it. Her mother felt that if she didn't make her finish karate then she wouldn't understand commitment and how she needs to finish what she starts. So for 3 or maybe 4 years this child was forced to karate even though she had begged to do gymnastics instead. Now she is in gymnastics and wants to try ballet, but the mother is making her continue with it so she understands that she has to finish what she starts.

I purposely chose the Y for Mary Elayne's gymnastics because it was something that she wanted to try, not DO. Her goal is to learn to do a cartwheel. The Y is also very inexpensive ($22 a month for 1 class a week) and low pressure. The coach doesn't want prodigies, he wants kids that like gymnastics. Mary Elayne loves it because she can tumble or not with no pressure from the coach. I'm not sure what this mother expects her daughter to "complete" as there are no belts to earn or certificates to complete. Each thing just progresses to the next. I did express why I chose the Y because I felt that Mary Elayne would enjoy the classes, but if she didn't then it wasn't $150 a month (or more) that we were shelling out and if she wanted to quit there was no contract to complete. I got several odd looks. LOL!

I guess they think that my kids will never complete anything. :-D
Michelle

Robyn Coburn

<<<<<So I find it so disheartening when I see my 5.5yo dd unhappiness. I can

see that she actually likes the instrument and the playing, but at the
lesson and also at home (I'm expected to correct her) she gets
corrected and I think it overwhelmes her now and she is thinking that
it is just too hard. but I think the thought of the music teacher is
that if we don't correct her, she will learn a bad posture, fingering
etc and it will be hard to unlearn.>>>>>

John Holt does tell a story about unlearning, in a few minutes once he
discovered his error, a bad habit (wrong notes) he had practiced with his
cello. It was the realization that he made on his own that made the
difference to his ability to remove the habitual movement, effortlessly.

If correcting a child makes them feel bad about themselves, ie it is an
unasked for correction in the specific instance, then I would not do it. If
your dd maintains an interest in playing well, for her own purposes, she
will notice that she is playing the wrong notes. She will observe the others
in her group and self-correct, or at the right moment *for her* she *will*
say something like "How should I hold my arm?" or "What am I doing wrong
with this?" Until then she will have so much joy in what she is doing.

<<<<How much sense is there in practicing it the
wrong way?>>>>

If the goal of practicing is enhancing your understanding of the instrument,
enjoying actually using it, and experimenting with music, then there is no
wrong way.

<<<<The problem with music lessons is that one really has to practice in
between. Otherwise you turn up at every lesson at the same point as you
where before.>>>>>

Lots of people have stories of this not happening. Also, so what if there
are periods of static consolidation? You and your dd should be the ones with
the goals and in charge of your own lessons and pace of learning. I suppose
if they took the punishing point of view that dd couldn't play in the
concert that might be a problem, to which I would say find other
opportunities for her to perform. Maybe still do that, if that is what she
likes.

David Alpert talks a lot about his kid's violin playing in "And the Skylark
Sings With Me". I recall it being a wonderful, long process. His dd played
in public to raise money - street performing (busking as they say in
Australia) - with a lot of success and enjoyment, without ever being a
"prodigy" or wanting to make it her profession.

<<<<How would John Holt hepl a child to learn an instrument?>>>>

I recall from his books that his biggest suggestion is to let the child play
around, on their own terms, with any new instrument or tool, to familiarize
themselves with it from the place of their own understanding, for quite a
long time, until they express the readiness to have any kind of lesson in
the proper method of use. For example he would say let the kid play fantasy
games with the chess pieces for while before telling them the rules of the
game. I guess he would completely disagree with the fake violin stuff that
Suzuki evidently does initially. He used to bring his cello to pre-schools
and just let the kids make noise on it (he called it "making the machine
work"), which they evidently received a great deal of joy from.

<<<<And I don't want to have to make her practice. Shall her just ignore
the teacher's instructions on how often to practice something and only
let her do it how and how many times she wants?>>>>

Yep. At least I would if it were Jayn.

Robyn L. Coburn

---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
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Ulrike Haupt

About music: Even though I haven't played my two learned instruments
(recorder and guitar) for a long while I wish I had a friend to play music
together with. There is such incredible sheet music available to give
musicians hours of fun. :)

Alexander has a very good ear and started to play on the piano and later the
electronic keyboard melodies he remembers from having seen certain videos
lots of times. And not only the melody part but the full range with both
hands and all fingers. and with variations. He also listened to the Phantom
of the Opera once (CD) and immediately managed to play that significant
intro part where the notes go down and down and down. :) On the shelve next
to and above the keyboard are all the music books we have. Sometimes he
takes something and copies the notes to Noteworthy Composer on computer or
he just 'composes' his own stuff. And then again he goes into drumming and
sets up intricate drum sets with pots and pans and cans and plastic buckets
and other resonating objects. He received a set of drum sticks and a
teaching CD for drums for his birthday. His way of learning most things is
by trying how it may work by himself without instructions from 'teachers'.
Lessons might not work for him at all. My eldest daughter wanted to learn to
play the recorder. I showed her the basics and she played the first 30 odd
songs from the booklet I had learned from as a kid within two days, all by
herself. Later she had a couple of lessons on the piano, dropped that but is
able to pick out all kinds of melodies, which fits her fine. I guess that it
all comes down to what do I want to be able to do and then just
doing/learning what is necessary until I can.

Blessed be
Ulrike
mom to four big children and Alexander - who found a cool Bey Blade website
last night where he can interact with others. :)
----- Original Message -----
From: <wieldingwords@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, November 24, 2004 7:17 PM
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] music lessons


>
>
> > I've had to really do some self examination when I felt like pushing
> > one of my children to continue with something they were done
> > with....it was an ego thing for me and I had to breathe deep and let
> > it go!:)
>
> I had to really bite my tongue the other day. I took Mary Elayne to
gymnastics and the mothers were talking about how they were making their
children "finish commitments." One mother made her daughter take karate
until she had earned her black belt (at 11-ish years old) because she had
expressed interest in karate then decided she didn't like it. Her mother
felt that if she didn't make her finish karate then she wouldn't understand
commitment and how she needs to finish what she starts. So for 3 or maybe 4
years this child was forced to karate even though she had begged to do
gymnastics instead. Now she is in gymnastics and wants to try ballet, but
the mother is making her continue with it so she understands that she has to
finish what she starts.
>
> I purposely chose the Y for Mary Elayne's gymnastics because it was
something that she wanted to try, not DO. Her goal is to learn to do a
cartwheel. The Y is also very inexpensive ($22 a month for 1 class a week)
and low pressure. The coach doesn't want prodigies, he wants kids that like
gymnastics. Mary Elayne loves it because she can tumble or not with no
pressure from the coach. I'm not sure what this mother expects her daughter
to "complete" as there are no belts to earn or certificates to complete.
Each thing just progresses to the next. I did express why I chose the Y
because I felt that Mary Elayne would enjoy the classes, but if she didn't
then it wasn't $150 a month (or more) that we were shelling out and if she
wanted to quit there was no contract to complete. I got several odd looks.
LOL!
>
> I guess they think that my kids will never complete anything. :-D
> Michelle
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Syndi

My thoughts are , WOW, what a lucky kid he is to have such a caring
and wonderful mom like you!
Syndi

pam sorooshian

On Nov 23, 2004, at 2:40 PM, Suni wrote:

> i know he is not even 2, but he is
> such an awesome kid! i dont want to screw it up for him. im gonna
> stop now before i repeat myself... thoughts????

The secret to happiness with yourself as a parent is to enjoy the
moments. Don't be always worrying about the future. REALLY enjoy each
age and stage for itself and respect and honor the child as he is right
now. It is so much harder for most of us than it sounds like it should
be. It reminds me a lot of the Bradley Method of childbirth - the hard
work of relaxation!!

People keep saying this, but it is easy to skim over it and not really
deeply think and meditate on it:
let your child teach you how to parent him or her. You be the learner
- your child knows perfectly well how to be exactly what he is right
now - you're the one with all the baggage who needs to intellectualize
because your reflexive responses to him are all bound up in society's
expectations and how you were, yourself, parented.

So - be reflective instead of reflexive - think about him and put
yourself in his place as much as you can. Practice seeing the world
from his point of view and you'll know that he wants to grow up capable
and competent and successful in his own way and he wants to have good
relationships and he wants to feel good about himself and he wants you
to support and encourage him and help him, sometimes.

Mostly he needs you to recognize and celebrate the shining beautiful
spirit within him because how his parents see him, when he is a child,
is very largely how he'll see himself for the rest of his life.

The rest is details! <G>

-pam

pam sorooshian

On Nov 24, 2004, at 2:01 AM, Angela White wrote:

> She loves the group lessons each week
> and she still mostly loves the lessons. She wants to learn to play.

Sounds to me like you're making the practice times miserable. Made me
cringe just reading about them.

What is your goal?

Mine wasn't that they become concert violinists or pianists - it was
that they have the JOY of music in their lives.

If it isn't joyful in the learning, then I'm sacrificing their current
life to some possible future life when they'll play violin so well that
they WILL find joy in it.

Tell the teacher that you'll be happy with whatever pace of learning
happens - that you're not as concerned with your child moving ahead
quickly as you are that the learning process is a constant source of
joy in your lives.

Then "play around" - don't practice anymore at ALL.

Have fun with it. If it isn't fun, stop.
Don't correct her posture or her being on the wrong notes - let her
enjoy herself without being criticized. She will pick up the posture
and hold her bow right and all that - over time - but you have to let
her be - let her have fun and experiment. Let her play the pieces that
she WANTS to play, let her go to the lessons without having played at
all in between, if she enjoys the lessons, then why not?

My oldest daughter took piano lessons for a year. She loved the teacher
and the lessons. She almost never touched the piano in between lessons.
I told the teacher that that was okay with me - that the lessons were
fun and that that was enough for us. Amazingly, my daughter progressed
anyway - probably a lot more slowly.

My middle daughter didn't want to take lessons, but taught herself to
play piano. And she never "practiced" - she just played. She almost
always picked pieces that were far too difficult (we have a lot of
music accumulated over the years) and she'd pick out bits of it and
slowly put it together until she could play it.

Both of them eventually took some lessons - in their teens. They are
extremely comfortable with music. They don't really remember learning
to read music - they just "picked it up" the same way they learned to
read English.

I'm not sure, but I think my 3rd daughter reads music pretty well, too.
She plays around on the keyboard a lot - since she wears headphones, I
don't hear what she's playing. But she uses two hands and seems to be
playing from various piano books.

Again - they have so much fun with music in their lives and they're not
afraid of it - if they want lessons, they ask, but mostly they learn
from other people and from books.

My oldest plays guitar pretty well - she's a singer, taught herself
guitar with a little help from her friends. My youngest has recently
started playing guitar - played nonstop for a few months, carried her
guitar everywhere. Got to be able to play a lot of chords. Now she
plays every few days, sometimes once a week or so. Neither of them ever
"practice." They find songs they want to learn and they play them - and
as they play them they get better at playing them. But it is ALL
playing - all fun and all for themselves - for their own personal
satisfaction and NEVER because somebody is making them do it.

They sing all the time, too. Sometimes they sing in groups - Roxana
sings in musical theater productions.

It is all good. None is forced.

None are great instrumental musicians - but their lives are rich with
music.

And - what was the goal, again? <G>

-pam

pam sorooshian

Yes - that was Roxana. She hasn't played piano much this year so Sandra
may not see any improvement when she gets here next week!!! But she's
progressed tremendously in her singing. Last night she told me she felt
like her "support" was quadrupled over the last 6 months and her
comfortable range extended over an octave higher than a year ago. She's
17 and she is still not taking voice "lessons" - but she participates
in musical theater workshops that include some vocal training and she
took a couple of voices classes over the past year. She's starring in a
youth theater production of Pirates of Penzance - she's Mabel, the
female lead. The is operetta - difficult vocal stuff. She LOVES it
passionately and the very idea of somebody else making her practice is
ludicrous - she works hard because it is her passion. Back when Rox was
first showing that she was very serious about singing, I talked to
Sandra about whether I should get her involved in taking voice lessons
- Roxana was probably 9 years old at the time. Sandra pretty much
encouraged me to just let her do what she was doing - singing all the
time - alone or in groups when she got the chance. She said that voice
lessons for young children could be risky for various reasons that all
made sense to me. So she didn't take any lessons at all until she was
14. Then, at that time, she was "behind" a lot of other kids her age
who had been taking formal lessons - and she didn't get any big parts
in shows, just barely got into the ensembles. But her talent was there
and her drive was there and now she's starting to really excel and get
some bigger parts.

The really important thing is that she's done all of this ENTIRELY on
her own initiative. Not once have I ever told her to practice. I drive
her around. I applaud loudly. I tell her when her singing moves me. But
I don't even know what she's working on or what she should be working
on...that's all up to her.

-pam

On Nov 24, 2004, at 8:54 AM, Ren Allen wrote:

> Sandra told a story at Kelly's house after the 2003 conference....I
> can't remember who it was about (One of your dd's PamS?) but she had
> visited the house and saw simple sheet music on the piano. As she
> visited in subsequent years, the music got more and more difficult,
> she assumed the child was progressing with her lessons.
> At some point, she was talking to them and realized that all of
> those years, the child had been self-taught. She was progressing all
> on her own, without any lessons. Pretty cool!
> I may not be telling this exactly correct, so I hope whoever this is
> about can actually speak up and tell the story. It's fabulous how
> these unschooled minds work.

pam sorooshian

On Nov 24, 2004, at 10:36 AM, Robyn Coburn wrote:

> She will observe the others
> in her group and self-correct, or at the right moment *for her* she
> *will*
> say something like "How should I hold my arm?" or "What am I doing
> wrong
> with this?" Until then she will have so much joy in what she is doing.

Or she'll express frustration and somebody will say, "Maybe adjust how
you're holding your arm." And she'll ask, "Oh, how do mean?" And
they'll explain and she'll TRY it because it makes sense and she sees
the need.

Otherwise, you are very likely to be correcting her posture JUST when
she's thinking, "That note sounded wrong - maybe i need to move my hand
a little," or whatever -- in other words, you're correcting things that
are irrelevant to the work she's doing at that moment. How annoying.
How rude. It is all based on the assumption that she needs you to tell
her what to work on - that she's not capable of figuring out, "My arm
feels uncomfortable," or even "My arm looks different than my teacher,
I wonder if that'll make a difference." Give her more credit.

-pam


-pam

Suni

thanx gals for helping me come to a different level of awareness
about my son. he really does know a lot, and i think that what i see
as genious is probably due to me letting him be himself most of the
time. i realize not many kids that i have ever known got the freedom
i am giving him and it has truly made a difference thus far. i will
keep trying do deschoolitize my brain and let him explore himself
more while im trying to explore with him :)

Angela White

On 26/11/2004, at 7:11 AM, pam sorooshian wrote:

>
> On Nov 24, 2004, at 2:01 AM, Angela White wrote:
>
> > She loves the group lessons each week
> > and she still mostly loves the lessons. She wants to learn to play.
>
> Sounds to me like you're making the practice times miserable. Made me
> cringe just reading about them.
>
Yes, you're quite right that I am not as positive as I could be. I
feel under pressure to be the coach to get her moving. When her
teacher asks if she has practiced something and she says no, than it's
really me who's the one responsible for that in the teacher's opinion
and I guess in mine which is why I feel pressure.

Today I've explained why dd hasn't practiced as much (she's feeling
under pressure, loosing the fun a bit etc) and the teacher answered
that we have lots of years ahead of us, no need to rush. But Suzuki is
based on daily practice, be it only 2 mins 2 times a day.

I've learned to play guitar and piano mostly by myself too but I find
the violin more difficult to learn on my own. I often have no clue what
it is that can help me to produce a better tone and when the teacher
shows me there is often a dramatic improvement which is very uplifting
and motivating.

And yes, you're right, my dd gets frustrated when she can't play the
way she wants to but she's refusing help often believing that it's just
too hard. So I will make my goal to focus on my own attitude and be as
positive as I can and to work on staying patient and reassuring.
It was good to read someone quote from John Holt how he self corrected
something. I too believe that is it not as big a deal to to that but I
haven't come across many people who do. Most music people tell me that
there is this 'muscle memory' which makes it hard for people to unlearn
things they have practiced a certain way for a while. I remember
reading in 'How children learn' how a young child joined her mother who
was playing with some other people and how the mother just now and then
adjusted the child's bow etc without saying much and how the child just
played along.
I'll try just inviting her to play along with me.
Angela

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

pam sorooshian

On Nov 26, 2004, at 4:35 AM, Angela White wrote:

> Most music people tell me that
> there is this 'muscle memory' which makes it hard for people to unlearn
> things they have practiced a certain way for a while. I remember
> reading in 'How children learn' how a young child joined her mother who
> was playing with some other people and how the mother just now and then
> adjusted the child's bow etc without saying much and how the child just
> played along.
> I'll try just inviting her to play along with me.

Angela, I'm assuming she WANTS to do this, right? I mean - you're not
making her take lessons because YOU think she ought to learn to play
the violin?

Second - just because it is "hard" to unlearn something you've
practiced "wrong" doesn't mean it can't be done. I think maybe you've
taken this idea too far and you think it is important that she practice
absolutely "correctly" at all times, so you're trying to get her
posture perfect, her finger position perfect, her bowing perfect, and
so on, all at once, from the very beginning. It is VERY hard to learn
something at all when you can't relax into it.

If it is the teacher who is putting the "method" as paramount, over the
joy, then get a different teacher and a different method. But it sounds
like it is you, not the teacher. If your daughter has musical talent,
she'll learn a lot just by fooling around with the violin - you won't
have to force it - just have fun together. Please make your "sessions"
fun enough that she looks forward to them.

Don't turn yourself into a nitpicking "teacher" who is so critical that
you turn her into a resentful and resistant student. That will mess
with your relationship with her - and that is FAR more significant than
whether or not a five year old holds her violin bow correctly.

Relationships first. Nurture joy.

If there was one thing I could give parents of young children, it would
be detachment.

(Funny thing for an attachment parenting proponent to say, huh? But I
mean detachment from the idea that our children's accomplishments
reflect our parenting. It is our relationship with our children that we
ought to be attached to.)

-pam

Krisula Moyer

When I was at University I had a music composition teacher ,a really gifted
composer himself, say " Practice makes perfect." then he'd laugh and say "No
it doesn't." He helped me see that 15 minutes of practicing because I
wanted to was worth more than hours of forced practice. I would say that it
is important to let a child choose when to end his practice session and not
urge just five more minutes out of him. It is a matter of who "owns" the
work. The feelings of empowerment will enhance his work and he'll be more
likely to choose to try again later. Whereas coersion puts his music into
the category of "things I do to please my parents." Music doesn't belong
there.