more questions from a newbie
kaitkalkenz3
Hi! I'm new to this group. I've asked a few questions but I have a few more. My mother and my sister are totally against unschooling. I've tried to explain the benefits but they just don't see it. Every thing that I say, they come back with an answer to! What have you all told your family and friends when you decided to unschool?
Also, I have told my mom that I've read a lot about unschooling and I've asked questions in these groups. She asked me what everyone did for a living on here. I personally don't see what you do for a living has anything to do with unschooling your children. I think that she may have meant "what have the unschoolers gone on to do as far as careers go?". Have any of you been unschooled yourself? If so, how many of you went on to college? If so, how many of you got a GED? If not, how did you get accepted to college? If you didn't get a GED, and didn't go to college either, what information have you been able to give to a perspective employer to prove that you are what they would consider "educated"?
I think that my mom's and my sister's biggest concern is that my children won't be able to go on to college or get a "good" job if they don't get a high school diploma. I tried to tell them that I've got a high school diploma and I've only been asked to show it to an employer once in the past 20 years that I've been out of school. My sister has a GED so I don't know why she even has a right to say anything. She quit school when she was 17 and got her GED. She didn't homeschool or unschool. She just quit. But now, she decided to go back to school a few years ago and she just graduated summa cum laude with highest honors from Kent State last March with a Bachelor's Degree majoring in English and minoring in Writing. Now, she is a graduate student going for her Master's Degree in Liberal Arts concentrating on Women's Studies. Look at all that she has done without a high school diploma! I'm so proud of her. But isn't it hypocritical of her to not agree about my children being unschooled when she didn't finish "traditional" high school either? And she has gone on to do a lot with only a GED!
I sent my sister a list of famous people that had been homeschooled, unschooled, or quit school that have gone on to do great things in their lives. She didn't respond to my e-mail, lol.
I guess that my mom just wants to know what any of you, as unschoolers, or if any of your grown children, if you have grown children, that were unschooled have gone on to do.
My sister keeps going on about how everyone that she works with at Kent is against homeschooling. She went on to tell me that her boss has a PhD. Well, la de da! I told her that I was proud of her boss's accomplishments but maybe my children don't want a PhD! My son is also in a rock band. He's played two "real" gigs so far and has two more scheduled this fall. He's really excited and I'm so proud of him and his bandmates. My sister told me that she talked to a guy she works with that used to want to be a "rock star" and that he said that the chance of making it was a long shot. I told her that my son and I realize that. But I bet that was also said to all the great bands out there like the Beatles and the Rolling Stones, etc. If they would have listened to everyone else's doubts, they wouldn't have made it. My son knows that he may not make it "big" but he's doing what he enjoys and he also has two other big interests to fall back on if the music doesn't work out.
I'm sorry for being so long-winded, lol. I guess I just basically want to know what I can say to my mom and my sister to convince them that this is the best option for my children? Thanks for listening to me ramble on. :)
Sherri
Also, I have told my mom that I've read a lot about unschooling and I've asked questions in these groups. She asked me what everyone did for a living on here. I personally don't see what you do for a living has anything to do with unschooling your children. I think that she may have meant "what have the unschoolers gone on to do as far as careers go?". Have any of you been unschooled yourself? If so, how many of you went on to college? If so, how many of you got a GED? If not, how did you get accepted to college? If you didn't get a GED, and didn't go to college either, what information have you been able to give to a perspective employer to prove that you are what they would consider "educated"?
I think that my mom's and my sister's biggest concern is that my children won't be able to go on to college or get a "good" job if they don't get a high school diploma. I tried to tell them that I've got a high school diploma and I've only been asked to show it to an employer once in the past 20 years that I've been out of school. My sister has a GED so I don't know why she even has a right to say anything. She quit school when she was 17 and got her GED. She didn't homeschool or unschool. She just quit. But now, she decided to go back to school a few years ago and she just graduated summa cum laude with highest honors from Kent State last March with a Bachelor's Degree majoring in English and minoring in Writing. Now, she is a graduate student going for her Master's Degree in Liberal Arts concentrating on Women's Studies. Look at all that she has done without a high school diploma! I'm so proud of her. But isn't it hypocritical of her to not agree about my children being unschooled when she didn't finish "traditional" high school either? And she has gone on to do a lot with only a GED!
I sent my sister a list of famous people that had been homeschooled, unschooled, or quit school that have gone on to do great things in their lives. She didn't respond to my e-mail, lol.
I guess that my mom just wants to know what any of you, as unschoolers, or if any of your grown children, if you have grown children, that were unschooled have gone on to do.
My sister keeps going on about how everyone that she works with at Kent is against homeschooling. She went on to tell me that her boss has a PhD. Well, la de da! I told her that I was proud of her boss's accomplishments but maybe my children don't want a PhD! My son is also in a rock band. He's played two "real" gigs so far and has two more scheduled this fall. He's really excited and I'm so proud of him and his bandmates. My sister told me that she talked to a guy she works with that used to want to be a "rock star" and that he said that the chance of making it was a long shot. I told her that my son and I realize that. But I bet that was also said to all the great bands out there like the Beatles and the Rolling Stones, etc. If they would have listened to everyone else's doubts, they wouldn't have made it. My son knows that he may not make it "big" but he's doing what he enjoys and he also has two other big interests to fall back on if the music doesn't work out.
I'm sorry for being so long-winded, lol. I guess I just basically want to know what I can say to my mom and my sister to convince them that this is the best option for my children? Thanks for listening to me ramble on. :)
Sherri
Melissa Gray
Sherri,
There is absolutely nothing you can say to your mom or your sister
that will change their minds. I'm sorry.
One of the first things I had to realize was that it didn't matter
what others thought, if seeking their approval was the way I lived my
life, I wouldn't have my life (which I love BTW) With my family I
have just told them that it's not up for discussion. It's not up for
negotiations. These are the children I was given, and I am going to
do what I feel is best for them. Not for my parents. Not for my
siblings (esp my SIL, she has SUCH issues with homeschooling anyway)
This is short, I have a nursling who wants me right now. just wanted
to get in something short, sweet and to the point. You can't change
someone's mind. You can just live for yourself and your children and
tell them to pass the potatoes!
Melissa
Mom to Joshua, Breanna, Emily, Rachel, Samuel, Daniel, Avari, and
baby Nathan!
Wife to Zane
blog me at
http://startlinglives.blogspot.com/
http://startlinglives365.blogspot.com
There is absolutely nothing you can say to your mom or your sister
that will change their minds. I'm sorry.
One of the first things I had to realize was that it didn't matter
what others thought, if seeking their approval was the way I lived my
life, I wouldn't have my life (which I love BTW) With my family I
have just told them that it's not up for discussion. It's not up for
negotiations. These are the children I was given, and I am going to
do what I feel is best for them. Not for my parents. Not for my
siblings (esp my SIL, she has SUCH issues with homeschooling anyway)
This is short, I have a nursling who wants me right now. just wanted
to get in something short, sweet and to the point. You can't change
someone's mind. You can just live for yourself and your children and
tell them to pass the potatoes!
Melissa
Mom to Joshua, Breanna, Emily, Rachel, Samuel, Daniel, Avari, and
baby Nathan!
Wife to Zane
blog me at
http://startlinglives.blogspot.com/
http://startlinglives365.blogspot.com
On Aug 6, 2009, at 11:17 AM, kaitkalkenz3 wrote:
>
>
> I'm sorry for being so long-winded, lol. I guess I just basically
> want to know what I can say to my mom and my sister to convince
> them that this is the best option for my children? Thanks for
> listening to me ramble on. :)
>
> Sherri
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Meredith
--- In [email protected], "kaitkalkenz3" <KaitKalKenz3@...> wrote:
I told my dad, the only family member to complain, that I had done a good bit of research and was happy to send him links, but didn't see a need to argue with someone who hadn't researched the matter as thoroughly as I had. I sent him one homeschool link - A to Z's Home's cool (sorry, not at my regular computer so I don't have the book mark). Its a ginormous site, which I think calmed him down a good deal.
George's mom and my Aunty (who doubles as a mom for me, since mine died before I ever had kids) were less antagonistic, so I've offered them little bits of information here and there, as they seem interested. This particular trip (I'm visiting now) we've talked alot about food, since Mo has a very conservative diet.
All sorts of people unschool. We have parents with PhDs, parents who are self employed, parents who are anarchists living in busses. Some unschooled kids go to college, others don't.
My partner never finished high school, but ran his own business until he was injured and had to change professions. Now he's a stay at home dad. I have a BS, but currently work in a factory. I've yet to find a reason to go to grad school. One of the differences I tend to see between unschooling families and others is there's less of an attitude that a career is something permanent. My partner has changed careers a couple times, and so have I - and I expect to change at least two more times in my life, maybe more!
My partner doesn't have a GED, either. They didn't ask for it when he got a business license ;) Homeschoolers can create their own diplomas, if necessary. Our umbrella school will provide one if Ray wants. If he goes on in metalworking, though, I don't suspect a diploma will be one of the really important questions he's asked.
I haven't really considered the matter for Mo, yet, since she's only 7. She may take community college classes before she "graduates" or she may do some interning, or other kinds of work that can be used on transcripts. Right now she's interested in animal rescue, so I'm looking for ways for her to do that Now - looking for shelters that need volunteers, for example. Colleges like that sort of thing, but that's not the point. SHE wants to do something important Right Now, not ten years from now.
That's another big difference with unschoolers (I've been pointing this out to grandma and Aunty, too) - looking at what kids can do and are doing, Now, rather than thinking in terms of kid-life as preparation for adult life. Its ironic, but it seems to lead to kids being Better prepared for adult life. They don't have to spend a dozen years doing some kind of half-a..ed practice, they get to live real life right now. It makes a difference.
Maybe send her a link a week about homeschooling successes! A whole lot of people just don't know anything but popular myths about homeschooling - much less unschooling! So if she's willing, send her little dribs and drabs about what homeschoolers in general are up to. Links to resources are good, too, for extended family. It gives them ideas for gifts that are "educational" which helps them feel connected to you and your kids. They're trying to connect and be helpful, they're just doing it badly! If connection is something you want, help them see that, even if they don't agree, this isn't something you've made up, its not a weird cult, its not a disaster waiting to happen.
---Meredith (Mo 7, Ray 15)
>*********************
> Hi! I'm new to this group. I've asked a few questions but I have a few more. My mother and my sister are totally against unschooling. I've tried to explain the benefits but they just don't see it. Every thing that I say, they come back with an answer to! What have you all told your family and friends when you decided to unschool?
I told my dad, the only family member to complain, that I had done a good bit of research and was happy to send him links, but didn't see a need to argue with someone who hadn't researched the matter as thoroughly as I had. I sent him one homeschool link - A to Z's Home's cool (sorry, not at my regular computer so I don't have the book mark). Its a ginormous site, which I think calmed him down a good deal.
George's mom and my Aunty (who doubles as a mom for me, since mine died before I ever had kids) were less antagonistic, so I've offered them little bits of information here and there, as they seem interested. This particular trip (I'm visiting now) we've talked alot about food, since Mo has a very conservative diet.
> Also, I have told my mom that I've read a lot about unschooling and I've asked questions in these groups. She asked me what everyone did for a living on here.**********************
All sorts of people unschool. We have parents with PhDs, parents who are self employed, parents who are anarchists living in busses. Some unschooled kids go to college, others don't.
My partner never finished high school, but ran his own business until he was injured and had to change professions. Now he's a stay at home dad. I have a BS, but currently work in a factory. I've yet to find a reason to go to grad school. One of the differences I tend to see between unschooling families and others is there's less of an attitude that a career is something permanent. My partner has changed careers a couple times, and so have I - and I expect to change at least two more times in my life, maybe more!
>If you didn't get a GED, and didn't go to college either, what information have you been able to give to a perspective employer to prove that you are what they would consider "educated"?*******************
My partner doesn't have a GED, either. They didn't ask for it when he got a business license ;) Homeschoolers can create their own diplomas, if necessary. Our umbrella school will provide one if Ray wants. If he goes on in metalworking, though, I don't suspect a diploma will be one of the really important questions he's asked.
I haven't really considered the matter for Mo, yet, since she's only 7. She may take community college classes before she "graduates" or she may do some interning, or other kinds of work that can be used on transcripts. Right now she's interested in animal rescue, so I'm looking for ways for her to do that Now - looking for shelters that need volunteers, for example. Colleges like that sort of thing, but that's not the point. SHE wants to do something important Right Now, not ten years from now.
That's another big difference with unschoolers (I've been pointing this out to grandma and Aunty, too) - looking at what kids can do and are doing, Now, rather than thinking in terms of kid-life as preparation for adult life. Its ironic, but it seems to lead to kids being Better prepared for adult life. They don't have to spend a dozen years doing some kind of half-a..ed practice, they get to live real life right now. It makes a difference.
> I sent my sister a list of famous people that had been homeschooled, unschooled, or quit school that have gone on to do great things in their lives. She didn't respond to my e-mail, lol.**********************
Maybe send her a link a week about homeschooling successes! A whole lot of people just don't know anything but popular myths about homeschooling - much less unschooling! So if she's willing, send her little dribs and drabs about what homeschoolers in general are up to. Links to resources are good, too, for extended family. It gives them ideas for gifts that are "educational" which helps them feel connected to you and your kids. They're trying to connect and be helpful, they're just doing it badly! If connection is something you want, help them see that, even if they don't agree, this isn't something you've made up, its not a weird cult, its not a disaster waiting to happen.
---Meredith (Mo 7, Ray 15)
Faith Void
OP: Hi! I'm new to this group. I've asked a few questions but I have a few
more. My mother and my sister are totally against unschooling. I've tried to
explain the benefits but they just don't see it. Every thing that I say,
they come back with an answer to! What have you all told your family and
friends when you decided to unschool?
***You don't have to explain, this is your life, you don't need their
approval. We just live our lives. When people ask questions I answer them
honestly but tempered to how much they need to know. Mostly my relatives
think I am a bit out there but respect my decisions. Most I don't share
everything we do.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
OP: Also, I have told my mom that I've read a lot about unschooling and I've
asked questions in these groups. She asked me what everyone did for a living
on here. I personally don't see what you do for a living has anything to do
with unschooling your children. I think that she may have meant "what have
the unschoolers gone on to do as far as careers go?". Have any of you been
unschooled yourself? If so, how many of you went on to college? If so, how
many of you got a GED? If not, how did you get accepted to college? If you
didn't get a GED, and didn't go to college either, what information have you
been able to give to a perspective employer to prove that you are what they
would consider "educated"?
***I can understand that she cares about you and your children. She is
scared, she wants reassurance. Both my husband and I am very well educated.
Neither of us went to college (except for a few classes). In fact I dropped
out of high school in the 10th grade. We are both very successful in our
chosen fields. Besides being a mother I am a doula and child birth educator.
I am also studying to become a midwife. My husband is a designer, a much
sought after one. We are both self taught artists. We have never had a
problem getting any job either of us wanted. We are both articulate, bright,
creative and motivated. I have made more than many of my friends that went
to college. I am not working for pay right now. We have decided that staying
home with the kids works for us right now.
My 12 year old has never been to school. She has had several volunteer
positions and a couple paid ones as well. She was able to get these one her
own merits with minimal help from me as an advocate. I see no reason to
believe that she won't be successful in anything she does, work or
otherwise.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
OP: I think that my mom's and my sister's biggest concern is that my
children won't be able to go on to college or get a "good" job if they don't
get a high school diploma. I tried to tell them that I've got a high school
diploma and I've only been asked to show it to an employer once in the past
20 years that I've been out of school. My sister has a GED so I don't know
why she even has a right to say anything. She quit school when she was 17
and got her GED. She didn't homeschool or unschool. She just quit. But now,
she decided to go back to school a few years ago and she just graduated
summa cum laude with highest honors from Kent State last March with a
Bachelor's Degree majoring in English and minoring in Writing. Now, she is a
graduate student going for her Master's Degree in Liberal Arts concentrating
on Women's Studies. Look at all that she has done without a high school
diploma! I'm so proud of her. But isn't it hypocritical of her to not agree
about my children being unschooled when she didn't finish "traditional" high
school either? And she has gone on to do a lot with only a GED!
***Many people with a college education work at dead end jobs. Many people
are successful because they have a healthy sense of self and it has little
to do with formal education. Being an advocate for and a champion of your
children's desires is the best thing you can do to help them have healthy
productive adult lives. Happy people today will likely be happy people
tomorrow.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
OP: I sent my sister a list of famous people that had been homeschooled,
unschooled, or quit school that have gone on to do great things in their
lives. She didn't respond to my e-mail, lol.
I guess that my mom just wants to know what any of you, as unschoolers, or
if any of your grown children, if you have grown children, that were
unschooled have gone on to do.
***It is important to me that my children are what they are TODAY, this
minute. My children are free to be what they are today because they are not
in school. They can live their lives each moment. They don't have to wait
until they grown up to "be" something. My 12 year old *IS* a writer, an
athlete and an apprentice to an animal rescue. She is those things now. She
may grow up to be a famous author someday so I feed her passion for writing
and creating stories. And even if she doesn't I know that I have invested
wisely in her love for her passion. How can you go wrong supporting your
child?
My ds6 discovered Jackass the movie when he was 4. He LOVED it. Many people
would say that is inappropriate and that it is horrible for a small child to
view. That may be but my son loved it and I celebrated that with him. I
watched it with him. I helped him find safe ways to do stunts. We video
taped them. We got involved in his joy of stunts. Out of Jackass he
discovered skateboarding. He LOVES skateboarding. He skates almost daily. He
is really good at it and he is only 6. He is a skateboarder now. He doesn't
have to grow up to be one. He may grow up into a famous highly paid
skateboarder. (Bam has a Lamborghini!) Following our children's passions may
take us to unlikely places. We may feel scared that they will not be
successful later in life. But how will they be successful if people are
always questioning their passions. How will they find their passions if
people are telling them what is important?
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
OP: My sister keeps going on about how everyone that she works with at Kent
is against homeschooling. She went on to tell me that her boss has a PhD.
Well, la de da! I told her that I was proud of her boss's accomplishments
but maybe my children don't want a PhD! My son is also in a rock band. He's
played two "real" gigs so far and has two more scheduled this fall. He's
really excited and I'm so proud of him and his bandmates. My sister told me
that she talked to a guy she works with that used to want to be a "rock
star" and that he said that the chance of making it was a long shot. I told
her that my son and I realize that. But I bet that was also said to all the
great bands out there like the Beatles and the Rolling Stones, etc. If they
would have listened to everyone else's doubts, they wouldn't have made it.
My son knows that he may not make it "big" but he's doing what he enjoys and
he also has two other big interests to fall back on if the music doesn't
work out.
I'm sorry for being so long-winded, lol. I guess I just basically want to
know what I can say to my mom and my sister to convince them that this is
the best option for my children? Thanks for listening to me ramble on. :)
***Your children are children, right now. There is no need to worry about a
phd right now. If and when that becomes important you can cross that bridge.
It sounds like your sound has found a passion. I use to play in a few (punk)
bands and so did my dh (high school/college age). I never became a rock
star. But I would never trade that experience for anything. I found joy in
what I was doing. I felt good and made others feel good.
I know several people (many) that make a living off of their music or art.
This is not unheard of. None of them are stars but they are successful in
their own right. My uncle is a very successful and accomplished musician. He
wasn't homeschooled but followed his passion instead if staying in school.
Um, you can't convince them. just live your truth. They are your children
thus you get to decide what is best for them. they don't get a say.
Faith
--
http://faithvoid.blogspot.com/
www.bearthmama.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
more. My mother and my sister are totally against unschooling. I've tried to
explain the benefits but they just don't see it. Every thing that I say,
they come back with an answer to! What have you all told your family and
friends when you decided to unschool?
***You don't have to explain, this is your life, you don't need their
approval. We just live our lives. When people ask questions I answer them
honestly but tempered to how much they need to know. Mostly my relatives
think I am a bit out there but respect my decisions. Most I don't share
everything we do.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
OP: Also, I have told my mom that I've read a lot about unschooling and I've
asked questions in these groups. She asked me what everyone did for a living
on here. I personally don't see what you do for a living has anything to do
with unschooling your children. I think that she may have meant "what have
the unschoolers gone on to do as far as careers go?". Have any of you been
unschooled yourself? If so, how many of you went on to college? If so, how
many of you got a GED? If not, how did you get accepted to college? If you
didn't get a GED, and didn't go to college either, what information have you
been able to give to a perspective employer to prove that you are what they
would consider "educated"?
***I can understand that she cares about you and your children. She is
scared, she wants reassurance. Both my husband and I am very well educated.
Neither of us went to college (except for a few classes). In fact I dropped
out of high school in the 10th grade. We are both very successful in our
chosen fields. Besides being a mother I am a doula and child birth educator.
I am also studying to become a midwife. My husband is a designer, a much
sought after one. We are both self taught artists. We have never had a
problem getting any job either of us wanted. We are both articulate, bright,
creative and motivated. I have made more than many of my friends that went
to college. I am not working for pay right now. We have decided that staying
home with the kids works for us right now.
My 12 year old has never been to school. She has had several volunteer
positions and a couple paid ones as well. She was able to get these one her
own merits with minimal help from me as an advocate. I see no reason to
believe that she won't be successful in anything she does, work or
otherwise.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
OP: I think that my mom's and my sister's biggest concern is that my
children won't be able to go on to college or get a "good" job if they don't
get a high school diploma. I tried to tell them that I've got a high school
diploma and I've only been asked to show it to an employer once in the past
20 years that I've been out of school. My sister has a GED so I don't know
why she even has a right to say anything. She quit school when she was 17
and got her GED. She didn't homeschool or unschool. She just quit. But now,
she decided to go back to school a few years ago and she just graduated
summa cum laude with highest honors from Kent State last March with a
Bachelor's Degree majoring in English and minoring in Writing. Now, she is a
graduate student going for her Master's Degree in Liberal Arts concentrating
on Women's Studies. Look at all that she has done without a high school
diploma! I'm so proud of her. But isn't it hypocritical of her to not agree
about my children being unschooled when she didn't finish "traditional" high
school either? And she has gone on to do a lot with only a GED!
***Many people with a college education work at dead end jobs. Many people
are successful because they have a healthy sense of self and it has little
to do with formal education. Being an advocate for and a champion of your
children's desires is the best thing you can do to help them have healthy
productive adult lives. Happy people today will likely be happy people
tomorrow.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
OP: I sent my sister a list of famous people that had been homeschooled,
unschooled, or quit school that have gone on to do great things in their
lives. She didn't respond to my e-mail, lol.
I guess that my mom just wants to know what any of you, as unschoolers, or
if any of your grown children, if you have grown children, that were
unschooled have gone on to do.
***It is important to me that my children are what they are TODAY, this
minute. My children are free to be what they are today because they are not
in school. They can live their lives each moment. They don't have to wait
until they grown up to "be" something. My 12 year old *IS* a writer, an
athlete and an apprentice to an animal rescue. She is those things now. She
may grow up to be a famous author someday so I feed her passion for writing
and creating stories. And even if she doesn't I know that I have invested
wisely in her love for her passion. How can you go wrong supporting your
child?
My ds6 discovered Jackass the movie when he was 4. He LOVED it. Many people
would say that is inappropriate and that it is horrible for a small child to
view. That may be but my son loved it and I celebrated that with him. I
watched it with him. I helped him find safe ways to do stunts. We video
taped them. We got involved in his joy of stunts. Out of Jackass he
discovered skateboarding. He LOVES skateboarding. He skates almost daily. He
is really good at it and he is only 6. He is a skateboarder now. He doesn't
have to grow up to be one. He may grow up into a famous highly paid
skateboarder. (Bam has a Lamborghini!) Following our children's passions may
take us to unlikely places. We may feel scared that they will not be
successful later in life. But how will they be successful if people are
always questioning their passions. How will they find their passions if
people are telling them what is important?
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
OP: My sister keeps going on about how everyone that she works with at Kent
is against homeschooling. She went on to tell me that her boss has a PhD.
Well, la de da! I told her that I was proud of her boss's accomplishments
but maybe my children don't want a PhD! My son is also in a rock band. He's
played two "real" gigs so far and has two more scheduled this fall. He's
really excited and I'm so proud of him and his bandmates. My sister told me
that she talked to a guy she works with that used to want to be a "rock
star" and that he said that the chance of making it was a long shot. I told
her that my son and I realize that. But I bet that was also said to all the
great bands out there like the Beatles and the Rolling Stones, etc. If they
would have listened to everyone else's doubts, they wouldn't have made it.
My son knows that he may not make it "big" but he's doing what he enjoys and
he also has two other big interests to fall back on if the music doesn't
work out.
I'm sorry for being so long-winded, lol. I guess I just basically want to
know what I can say to my mom and my sister to convince them that this is
the best option for my children? Thanks for listening to me ramble on. :)
***Your children are children, right now. There is no need to worry about a
phd right now. If and when that becomes important you can cross that bridge.
It sounds like your sound has found a passion. I use to play in a few (punk)
bands and so did my dh (high school/college age). I never became a rock
star. But I would never trade that experience for anything. I found joy in
what I was doing. I felt good and made others feel good.
I know several people (many) that make a living off of their music or art.
This is not unheard of. None of them are stars but they are successful in
their own right. My uncle is a very successful and accomplished musician. He
wasn't homeschooled but followed his passion instead if staying in school.
Um, you can't convince them. just live your truth. They are your children
thus you get to decide what is best for them. they don't get a say.
Faith
--
http://faithvoid.blogspot.com/
www.bearthmama.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
DJ250
Well said, Faith!
I'd like to add that all you need to say is "This is what works for us" and NO MORE. Change the subject, leave the room, whatever (politely--no need to be nasty)! Thank them for their concern and then show them the cool pictures your child drew (or whatever is the latest neat thing you and your child have been exploring!). Oddly (happily!), my super-educated (we're talking PhD, honorary degrees, DDS, etc) parents are non-intrusive. I am amazed! I think they have picked up on the enthusiasm with which my children greet life and so are enjoying THAT and realizing they are happy kids so all must be well. I think if you make it clear that you and your family are happy and contented with this new-found way of life, there will be no room for questioning. It may take a while, though.
My .02,
~Melissa, in MD :)
I'd like to add that all you need to say is "This is what works for us" and NO MORE. Change the subject, leave the room, whatever (politely--no need to be nasty)! Thank them for their concern and then show them the cool pictures your child drew (or whatever is the latest neat thing you and your child have been exploring!). Oddly (happily!), my super-educated (we're talking PhD, honorary degrees, DDS, etc) parents are non-intrusive. I am amazed! I think they have picked up on the enthusiasm with which my children greet life and so are enjoying THAT and realizing they are happy kids so all must be well. I think if you make it clear that you and your family are happy and contented with this new-found way of life, there will be no room for questioning. It may take a while, though.
My .02,
~Melissa, in MD :)
----- Original Message -----
From: Faith Void
To: [email protected]
Sent: Thursday, August 06, 2009 8:52 PM
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] more questions from a newbie
OP: Hi! I'm new to this group. I've asked a few questions but I have a few
more. My mother and my sister are totally against unschooling. I've tried to
explain the benefits but they just don't see it. Every thing that I say,
they come back with an answer to! What have you all told your family and
friends when you decided to unschool?
***You don't have to explain, this is your life, you don't need their
approval. We just live our lives. When people ask questions I answer them
honestly but tempered to how much they need to know. Mostly my relatives
think I am a bit out there but respect my decisions. Most I don't share
everything we do.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
OP: Also, I have told my mom that I've read a lot about unschooling and I've
asked questions in these groups. She asked me what everyone did for a living
on here. I personally don't see what you do for a living has anything to do
with unschooling your children. I think that she may have meant "what have
the unschoolers gone on to do as far as careers go?". Have any of you been
unschooled yourself? If so, how many of you went on to college? If so, how
many of you got a GED? If not, how did you get accepted to college? If you
didn't get a GED, and didn't go to college either, what information have you
been able to give to a perspective employer to prove that you are what they
would consider "educated"?
***I can understand that she cares about you and your children. She is
scared, she wants reassurance. Both my husband and I am very well educated.
Neither of us went to college (except for a few classes). In fact I dropped
out of high school in the 10th grade. We are both very successful in our
chosen fields. Besides being a mother I am a doula and child birth educator.
I am also studying to become a midwife. My husband is a designer, a much
sought after one. We are both self taught artists. We have never had a
problem getting any job either of us wanted. We are both articulate, bright,
creative and motivated. I have made more than many of my friends that went
to college. I am not working for pay right now. We have decided that staying
home with the kids works for us right now.
My 12 year old has never been to school. She has had several volunteer
positions and a couple paid ones as well. She was able to get these one her
own merits with minimal help from me as an advocate. I see no reason to
believe that she won't be successful in anything she does, work or
otherwise.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
OP: I think that my mom's and my sister's biggest concern is that my
children won't be able to go on to college or get a "good" job if they don't
get a high school diploma. I tried to tell them that I've got a high school
diploma and I've only been asked to show it to an employer once in the past
20 years that I've been out of school. My sister has a GED so I don't know
why she even has a right to say anything. She quit school when she was 17
and got her GED. She didn't homeschool or unschool. She just quit. But now,
she decided to go back to school a few years ago and she just graduated
summa cum laude with highest honors from Kent State last March with a
Bachelor's Degree majoring in English and minoring in Writing. Now, she is a
graduate student going for her Master's Degree in Liberal Arts concentrating
on Women's Studies. Look at all that she has done without a high school
diploma! I'm so proud of her. But isn't it hypocritical of her to not agree
about my children being unschooled when she didn't finish "traditional" high
school either? And she has gone on to do a lot with only a GED!
***Many people with a college education work at dead end jobs. Many people
are successful because they have a healthy sense of self and it has little
to do with formal education. Being an advocate for and a champion of your
children's desires is the best thing you can do to help them have healthy
productive adult lives. Happy people today will likely be happy people
tomorrow.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
OP: I sent my sister a list of famous people that had been homeschooled,
unschooled, or quit school that have gone on to do great things in their
lives. She didn't respond to my e-mail, lol.
I guess that my mom just wants to know what any of you, as unschoolers, or
if any of your grown children, if you have grown children, that were
unschooled have gone on to do.
***It is important to me that my children are what they are TODAY, this
minute. My children are free to be what they are today because they are not
in school. They can live their lives each moment. They don't have to wait
until they grown up to "be" something. My 12 year old *IS* a writer, an
athlete and an apprentice to an animal rescue. She is those things now. She
may grow up to be a famous author someday so I feed her passion for writing
and creating stories. And even if she doesn't I know that I have invested
wisely in her love for her passion. How can you go wrong supporting your
child?
My ds6 discovered Jackass the movie when he was 4. He LOVED it. Many people
would say that is inappropriate and that it is horrible for a small child to
view. That may be but my son loved it and I celebrated that with him. I
watched it with him. I helped him find safe ways to do stunts. We video
taped them. We got involved in his joy of stunts. Out of Jackass he
discovered skateboarding. He LOVES skateboarding. He skates almost daily. He
is really good at it and he is only 6. He is a skateboarder now. He doesn't
have to grow up to be one. He may grow up into a famous highly paid
skateboarder. (Bam has a Lamborghini!) Following our children's passions may
take us to unlikely places. We may feel scared that they will not be
successful later in life. But how will they be successful if people are
always questioning their passions. How will they find their passions if
people are telling them what is important?
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
OP: My sister keeps going on about how everyone that she works with at Kent
is against homeschooling. She went on to tell me that her boss has a PhD.
Well, la de da! I told her that I was proud of her boss's accomplishments
but maybe my children don't want a PhD! My son is also in a rock band. He's
played two "real" gigs so far and has two more scheduled this fall. He's
really excited and I'm so proud of him and his bandmates. My sister told me
that she talked to a guy she works with that used to want to be a "rock
star" and that he said that the chance of making it was a long shot. I told
her that my son and I realize that. But I bet that was also said to all the
great bands out there like the Beatles and the Rolling Stones, etc. If they
would have listened to everyone else's doubts, they wouldn't have made it.
My son knows that he may not make it "big" but he's doing what he enjoys and
he also has two other big interests to fall back on if the music doesn't
work out.
I'm sorry for being so long-winded, lol. I guess I just basically want to
know what I can say to my mom and my sister to convince them that this is
the best option for my children? Thanks for listening to me ramble on. :)
***Your children are children, right now. There is no need to worry about a
phd right now. If and when that becomes important you can cross that bridge.
It sounds like your sound has found a passion. I use to play in a few (punk)
bands and so did my dh (high school/college age). I never became a rock
star. But I would never trade that experience for anything. I found joy in
what I was doing. I felt good and made others feel good.
I know several people (many) that make a living off of their music or art.
This is not unheard of. None of them are stars but they are successful in
their own right. My uncle is a very successful and accomplished musician. He
wasn't homeschooled but followed his passion instead if staying in school.
Um, you can't convince them. just live your truth. They are your children
thus you get to decide what is best for them. they don't get a say.
Faith
--
http://faithvoid.blogspot.com/
www.bearthmama.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Ren Allen
~~OP: Also, I have told my mom that I've read a lot about unschooling and I've asked questions in these groups. She asked me what everyone did for a living on here. ~~
Currently? Or in previous decades? I've done a lot of different things in my lifetime...let's see: stay-at-home-Mom, house cleaner,babysitter, nanny, delivery driver,aerobic instructor, membership director at health clubs, reservation agent, art instructor, artist, writer and currently I make pretty good money as a professional makeup artist.
Dh has done a lot of things too...we're the "jack-of-all-trades" types and we like it that way! He's currently a realtor.
Would unschooling my children be more acceptable as a makeup artist than if I were cleaning houses? Would my children be entrusted to my intellect and ability if I work on celebrities rather than babysit? Why? How does one's job or career choice decide what kind of person they are or how capable they are of assisting their children?
That's such typical mainstream thinking though...good job=success.
Pooh on that notion! What I want to know is how happy are you? How happy are your children? How content are you with your own choices and do you take responsiblity for your choices? How much support do you give your children with their dreams and desires, regardless of the size that dream seems to be. I want to know if people love their lives and enjoy learning. Whether you're a janitor or a pilot, a housekeeper or have no income at ALL, are you interesting, interested and curious?
THAT'S the kind of criteria *I* care about! If family members want proof...well...(as Kelly Lovejoy says) the "proof is in the pudding and I'm a damn patient cook".
The "proof" comes when your kids (like some of mine) are young adults and aren't slobbering, drooling idiots. When you have well-informed, intelligent adults it's hard for family to say much of anything...though we do get the loaded "what's Trevor going to DO" as if 19 is a magical age in which you suddenly have your whole life planned. Grrr....
Ren
radicalunschooling.blogspot.com
Currently? Or in previous decades? I've done a lot of different things in my lifetime...let's see: stay-at-home-Mom, house cleaner,babysitter, nanny, delivery driver,aerobic instructor, membership director at health clubs, reservation agent, art instructor, artist, writer and currently I make pretty good money as a professional makeup artist.
Dh has done a lot of things too...we're the "jack-of-all-trades" types and we like it that way! He's currently a realtor.
Would unschooling my children be more acceptable as a makeup artist than if I were cleaning houses? Would my children be entrusted to my intellect and ability if I work on celebrities rather than babysit? Why? How does one's job or career choice decide what kind of person they are or how capable they are of assisting their children?
That's such typical mainstream thinking though...good job=success.
Pooh on that notion! What I want to know is how happy are you? How happy are your children? How content are you with your own choices and do you take responsiblity for your choices? How much support do you give your children with their dreams and desires, regardless of the size that dream seems to be. I want to know if people love their lives and enjoy learning. Whether you're a janitor or a pilot, a housekeeper or have no income at ALL, are you interesting, interested and curious?
THAT'S the kind of criteria *I* care about! If family members want proof...well...(as Kelly Lovejoy says) the "proof is in the pudding and I'm a damn patient cook".
The "proof" comes when your kids (like some of mine) are young adults and aren't slobbering, drooling idiots. When you have well-informed, intelligent adults it's hard for family to say much of anything...though we do get the loaded "what's Trevor going to DO" as if 19 is a magical age in which you suddenly have your whole life planned. Grrr....
Ren
radicalunschooling.blogspot.com
JRossedd
Sherri, here's a professor's family explaining their take on why they
homeschool. It's got some good ideas about breaking free from "school"
if not from instruction.
http://cockingasnook.wordpress.com/an-academics-case-for-homeschooling/
Of course unschooling goes much further than this. Based on the specific
questions of your mother and sister, maybe my family would come in handy
as a shorthand response, to get them satisfied enough for a while to let
you get on with unschooling without so much concern. I do have a Ph.D.
and it should help for your current purpose because it's in public
education policy (with 20 years of experience up through a large state's
department of education, where I was the top line official for
instruction and curriculum.) IOW if they respect traditional education
credentials and public schooling, that should at least get them to
consider my advice and assurances on this topic. :-)
With all that traditional education in my own background, as soon as I
had my own children rather late in life, I left all that control of
other children's schooling to unschool my own. We did absolutely
nothing that looked anything your mom and sister would recognize as
teaching or learning, and we didn't worry about college much less high
school or elementary school three Rs instruction. Our children are now
19 and 14, and because they've freely explored their own passions with
their own good minds however they wished -- with our love and support
absent any effort to teach or limit, shape or steer -- they think
learning and libraries and academics are the coolest thing ever, and
they both want to get their own doctorates and be professors. One loves
English and cultural studies so much that she eats, sleeps and breathes
it; the other is all about history, especially military and north
European history.
The 19-year-old doesn't have any high school transcript or diploma but
she's got a perfect GPA and a scholarship as a junior at a major
university with a double major, just got back from backpacking around
Europe with a girlfriend. My 14-year-old who lives in his own world and
sleeps past noon most days, just finished playing Richard the Third in a
high school summer intensive he chose himself for the fun of it
(costumes, swords, kings and queens, murder and mayhem!) with a local
Shakespeare professor who thought he was terrific. He got his name and
picture in the paper and was invited back to do Hamlet with the same
program next summer. He won't get a high school diploma either but he's
already living his life like a real professor.
Here's a quote for your mom and sister from the Best Picture
Oscar-winning movie Shakespeare in Love (which my son just watched and
adored) --
"Don't worry, it will all out work out.
"HOW will it work out?
I don't know, it's a mystery!"
JJ to you
(JJ Ross, Ed.D. to your mom and sister!)
homeschool. It's got some good ideas about breaking free from "school"
if not from instruction.
http://cockingasnook.wordpress.com/an-academics-case-for-homeschooling/
Of course unschooling goes much further than this. Based on the specific
questions of your mother and sister, maybe my family would come in handy
as a shorthand response, to get them satisfied enough for a while to let
you get on with unschooling without so much concern. I do have a Ph.D.
and it should help for your current purpose because it's in public
education policy (with 20 years of experience up through a large state's
department of education, where I was the top line official for
instruction and curriculum.) IOW if they respect traditional education
credentials and public schooling, that should at least get them to
consider my advice and assurances on this topic. :-)
With all that traditional education in my own background, as soon as I
had my own children rather late in life, I left all that control of
other children's schooling to unschool my own. We did absolutely
nothing that looked anything your mom and sister would recognize as
teaching or learning, and we didn't worry about college much less high
school or elementary school three Rs instruction. Our children are now
19 and 14, and because they've freely explored their own passions with
their own good minds however they wished -- with our love and support
absent any effort to teach or limit, shape or steer -- they think
learning and libraries and academics are the coolest thing ever, and
they both want to get their own doctorates and be professors. One loves
English and cultural studies so much that she eats, sleeps and breathes
it; the other is all about history, especially military and north
European history.
The 19-year-old doesn't have any high school transcript or diploma but
she's got a perfect GPA and a scholarship as a junior at a major
university with a double major, just got back from backpacking around
Europe with a girlfriend. My 14-year-old who lives in his own world and
sleeps past noon most days, just finished playing Richard the Third in a
high school summer intensive he chose himself for the fun of it
(costumes, swords, kings and queens, murder and mayhem!) with a local
Shakespeare professor who thought he was terrific. He got his name and
picture in the paper and was invited back to do Hamlet with the same
program next summer. He won't get a high school diploma either but he's
already living his life like a real professor.
Here's a quote for your mom and sister from the Best Picture
Oscar-winning movie Shakespeare in Love (which my son just watched and
adored) --
"Don't worry, it will all out work out.
"HOW will it work out?
I don't know, it's a mystery!"
JJ to you
(JJ Ross, Ed.D. to your mom and sister!)
carenkh
=-=He won't get a high school diploma either=-=
I've seen this several times, or have heard talk about getting a GED... as a homeschooler in my state, I have every right to give my sons their diplomas, and they are valid. Is it not this way in every state? Why the GED? Isn't that for people who didn't get a diploma? As an unschooler, I think a diploma is sorta silly - you don't graduate from learning! But for legal reasons, I could certainly design something & print it up, I think most places recognize home school diplomas as valid.
Just curious about that -
Caren
I've seen this several times, or have heard talk about getting a GED... as a homeschooler in my state, I have every right to give my sons their diplomas, and they are valid. Is it not this way in every state? Why the GED? Isn't that for people who didn't get a diploma? As an unschooler, I think a diploma is sorta silly - you don't graduate from learning! But for legal reasons, I could certainly design something & print it up, I think most places recognize home school diplomas as valid.
Just curious about that -
Caren
Ren Allen
~~"Don't worry, it will all out work out.
"HOW will it work out?
I don't know, it's a mystery!"~~
I love this. One thing I constantly say is that you don't have to know the HOW of a thing to begin moving towards it. You just have to know what you want and the HOW will begin to take form as you do the things you CAN do.:)
Ren
radicalunschooling.blogspot.com
"HOW will it work out?
I don't know, it's a mystery!"~~
I love this. One thing I constantly say is that you don't have to know the HOW of a thing to begin moving towards it. You just have to know what you want and the HOW will begin to take form as you do the things you CAN do.:)
Ren
radicalunschooling.blogspot.com
Jana Smith
I don't even remember the OP but this being said by Ren, I KNOW There is nothing more fulfilling than being able to to KNOW what you want, and just "fake it til you make it" it will ALL WORK OUT anyway however it will! :) Let things BE. Enjoy the ride!
Jana
Jana
--- On Fri, 8/7/09, Ren Allen <starsuncloud@...> wrote:
From: Ren Allen <starsuncloud@...>
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re:more questions from a newbie
To: [email protected]
Date: Friday, August 7, 2009, 9:58 AM
~~"Don't worry, it will all out work out.
"HOW will it work out?
I don't know, it's a mystery!"~~
I love this. One thing I constantly say is that you don't have to know the HOW of a thing to begin moving towards it. You just have to know what you want and the HOW will begin to take form as you do the things you CAN do.:)
Ren
radicalunschooling. blogspot. com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
JJ Ross
O don't know about all states but in Florida, we get two full calendar years of free enrollment in any community college courses our homeschooling high school kids might want to take. A diploma of any kind including a gED would have cancelled this opportunity because it was only for "high schooling" homeschoolers. So Favorite Daughter started at age 15 and by the time she'd used up her two years, she was almost through an Associate of Arts degree with that perfect GPA and so excited about transferring to university, so we declared her home education "done" and used her college transcript for the transfer . . .
--- In [email protected], "carenkh" <carenkh@...> wrote:
>
> =-=He won't get a high school diploma either=-=
>
> I've seen this several times, or have heard talk about getting a GED... as a homeschooler in my state, I have every right to give my sons their diplomas, and they are valid. Is it not this way in every state? Why the GED? Isn't that for people who didn't get a diploma? As an unschooler, I think a diploma is sorta silly - you don't graduate from learning! But for legal reasons, I could certainly design something & print it up, I think most places recognize home school diplomas as valid.
>
> Just curious about that -
>
> Caren
>
JJ Ross
Having just sent a child off to Europe with no tour group or adult planning whatsoever, for five weeks with a friend younger than SHE is, I can attest to the importance of Ren's wise words! It took over a year for them to gradually get to the point that they actually went, but all along the way there were seemingly insurmountable obstacles and even after they arrived, some problems to be negotiated -- and I really struggled the whole time, from afar!
But sure enough, it all worked out. She got back late Tuesday night and she's still telling me stories and it is SO amazing to hear how she handled each thing as it came up, not just travel but interpersonal relations and little things like her math disorder, with all the currency changing etc. Just amazing. All I hope to convey to newbies is that it does work out if you don't force it, don;t let your own need to control and determine outcomes get in the way.
But sure enough, it all worked out. She got back late Tuesday night and she's still telling me stories and it is SO amazing to hear how she handled each thing as it came up, not just travel but interpersonal relations and little things like her math disorder, with all the currency changing etc. Just amazing. All I hope to convey to newbies is that it does work out if you don't force it, don;t let your own need to control and determine outcomes get in the way.
--- In [email protected], "Ren Allen" <starsuncloud@...> wrote:
>
> ~~"Don't worry, it will all out work out.
> "HOW will it work out?
> I don't know, it's a mystery!"~~
>
> I love this. One thing I constantly say is that you don't have to know the HOW of a thing to begin moving towards it. You just have to know what you want and the HOW will begin to take form as you do the things you CAN do.:)
>
> Ren
> radicalunschooling.blogspot.com
>
[email protected]
I just wanted to thank
everyone that has responded to my post. I really appreciate all the
advice, suggestions, stories of what you all have done, and the
references to links or books that I can take a look at. I am really
trying to learn as much as possible. And as I learn, I feel as if we
have already been unschooling for years now. We have just also had the
public schooling and the online schooling on top of it as well. I'm so
looking forward to the relief of not having to beg and plead my 16 and
14 year old to do their lessons or their homework. I am so looking
forward to see them learning what they are really interested in and see
that spark in their eye when they want to tell me all about something
they've learned because they wanted to learn it and weren't forced to.
My other dilemma is my
7 year old. She will be entering second grade at the local public
elementary school. I'm debating whether I want to unschool her as well.
Part of me feels like it is the right thing to do but the other part of
me is worried that I will not be able to help her learn the basics. You
guys think that my mom and sister freaked over my two older children,
wait until they hear that I'm thinking of unschooling my youngest! LOL.
My son, the 14 year old, started homeschooling in the 5th grade. It was
his choice. At first, I was against it but then I read all about
homeschooling and the more I read, the more it made sense. I made up
the curriculum myself that year. We lived in North Carolina at the
time. We then moved back to our home state of Ohio and for some reason
I thought that it was going to be more difficult to homeschool. I don't
remember what I read at the time but I didn't think I could homeschool
without a lot of hassle from the system so I enrolled him in the online
school Connections Academy. He was at CA for 6th, 7th, and most of 8th
grade.
My oldest daughter, 16, attended public school all the way until half
way through her 10th grade year by her choice. She then decided that
she'd like to try the online school but she didn't want to go to CA.
She had heard about a school called Buckeye Online School for Success
from a friend so she started there in December 2008. My son wasn't
happy with CA so he switched to BOSS as well in March of 2009 to finish
out his 8th grade school year.
In the end, neither one of them was happy with what they were learning.
And whenever I helped them, I didn't quite understand why they had to
learn some of the things that they were learning. I'd tell them "you're
never going to use this, I never did". So many useless things memorized
just to pass a test so the system can say that we are learning as we
should be. I did well in school but that is all I did, memorized things
to pass the test, and then forgot them. The only things that I
remembered were the things important to me. Well, those and some other
useless facts. I said to my sister the other day that if someone asked
me who the 10th President of the United States was, I could tell them
that it was John Tyler but who really cares. Unless I was going on to
be a historian or a history teacher, etc., then who really cares if I
know some meaningless historical facts. I think that my son did best
the year in NC that I homeschooled. I made up math lessons
incorporating his favorite sport, Nascar racing. He loved that! Reading
and writing consisted of more of Nascar, as well as other things he was
interested in such as music, guitar playing, bicycle repair, etc. He
did so much better when learning about things that he liked than being
forced to learn. We even went to Lowe's Motor Speedway (an hour from us
at the time) and to Dale Earnhardt, Inc. (about 30 to 40 minutes away
from us). And I also worked at Doug Herbert Performance (he's a
dragster) for a while so my son got to learn and see first hand about
the world of racing which our whole family loves.
Also, I am starting Kent State at the end of this month. I am not
taking my first choice. I wanted to take Thanatology but that is not
offered at any Ohio school. The closest school that I could find
offering it was in Maryland. My other choice would be to take an online
course in Thanatology. However, I can not get financial aid for the
online course. So I have had to find a close substitution. I am going
to be taking Sociology which covers way more than Thanatology but does
offer one semester in it. I don't know what I want to do once I
graduate but I am just interested in both Thanatology and Sociology.
The problem that I have is all the extra courses that I "must" take in
order to graduate. Why do I need 4 semesters of a foreign language? I'm
not moving to another country. I took 3 years of Spanish in high school
because I wanted to but now I don't want to, lol. Also, I have to take
College Writing which I do like but don't find necessary to take as
well as music and history classes that have nothing to do with
Sociology. I just don't understand why we have to take all of these
extra classes. But since I do want to learn about Sociology, I am
making the "choice" to take all of these other required courses in
order to graduate.
Sorry, I guess that I kind of got off topic there, lol. I tend to be
very long-winded as all the thoughts in my head come down my arms and
through my fingers to the keyboard, lol. I guess what I am trying to
say above is that I feel that my older two learned the "basics" such as
reading, writing, and basic math. I am worried that taking my 7 year
old out of school now that she will have a harder time learning the
basics. Also, there is a part of me that is still trying to "deschool"
myself. I am feeling that it is "wrong" to take my 7 year old out of
school for some reason that I can't quite explain. But then there is
another part of me that is pulling me to do so just the same. I only
want to do what is best for all 3 of my children. I just don't want to
make the wrong choice that may or may not have detrimental effects on
their future. Any advice on what to do about my 7 year old attending
public school or being unschooled (or even homeschooled)??
Thanks again for all of your advice with this matter. I really appreciate it.
Sherri
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
everyone that has responded to my post. I really appreciate all the
advice, suggestions, stories of what you all have done, and the
references to links or books that I can take a look at. I am really
trying to learn as much as possible. And as I learn, I feel as if we
have already been unschooling for years now. We have just also had the
public schooling and the online schooling on top of it as well. I'm so
looking forward to the relief of not having to beg and plead my 16 and
14 year old to do their lessons or their homework. I am so looking
forward to see them learning what they are really interested in and see
that spark in their eye when they want to tell me all about something
they've learned because they wanted to learn it and weren't forced to.
My other dilemma is my
7 year old. She will be entering second grade at the local public
elementary school. I'm debating whether I want to unschool her as well.
Part of me feels like it is the right thing to do but the other part of
me is worried that I will not be able to help her learn the basics. You
guys think that my mom and sister freaked over my two older children,
wait until they hear that I'm thinking of unschooling my youngest! LOL.
My son, the 14 year old, started homeschooling in the 5th grade. It was
his choice. At first, I was against it but then I read all about
homeschooling and the more I read, the more it made sense. I made up
the curriculum myself that year. We lived in North Carolina at the
time. We then moved back to our home state of Ohio and for some reason
I thought that it was going to be more difficult to homeschool. I don't
remember what I read at the time but I didn't think I could homeschool
without a lot of hassle from the system so I enrolled him in the online
school Connections Academy. He was at CA for 6th, 7th, and most of 8th
grade.
My oldest daughter, 16, attended public school all the way until half
way through her 10th grade year by her choice. She then decided that
she'd like to try the online school but she didn't want to go to CA.
She had heard about a school called Buckeye Online School for Success
from a friend so she started there in December 2008. My son wasn't
happy with CA so he switched to BOSS as well in March of 2009 to finish
out his 8th grade school year.
In the end, neither one of them was happy with what they were learning.
And whenever I helped them, I didn't quite understand why they had to
learn some of the things that they were learning. I'd tell them "you're
never going to use this, I never did". So many useless things memorized
just to pass a test so the system can say that we are learning as we
should be. I did well in school but that is all I did, memorized things
to pass the test, and then forgot them. The only things that I
remembered were the things important to me. Well, those and some other
useless facts. I said to my sister the other day that if someone asked
me who the 10th President of the United States was, I could tell them
that it was John Tyler but who really cares. Unless I was going on to
be a historian or a history teacher, etc., then who really cares if I
know some meaningless historical facts. I think that my son did best
the year in NC that I homeschooled. I made up math lessons
incorporating his favorite sport, Nascar racing. He loved that! Reading
and writing consisted of more of Nascar, as well as other things he was
interested in such as music, guitar playing, bicycle repair, etc. He
did so much better when learning about things that he liked than being
forced to learn. We even went to Lowe's Motor Speedway (an hour from us
at the time) and to Dale Earnhardt, Inc. (about 30 to 40 minutes away
from us). And I also worked at Doug Herbert Performance (he's a
dragster) for a while so my son got to learn and see first hand about
the world of racing which our whole family loves.
Also, I am starting Kent State at the end of this month. I am not
taking my first choice. I wanted to take Thanatology but that is not
offered at any Ohio school. The closest school that I could find
offering it was in Maryland. My other choice would be to take an online
course in Thanatology. However, I can not get financial aid for the
online course. So I have had to find a close substitution. I am going
to be taking Sociology which covers way more than Thanatology but does
offer one semester in it. I don't know what I want to do once I
graduate but I am just interested in both Thanatology and Sociology.
The problem that I have is all the extra courses that I "must" take in
order to graduate. Why do I need 4 semesters of a foreign language? I'm
not moving to another country. I took 3 years of Spanish in high school
because I wanted to but now I don't want to, lol. Also, I have to take
College Writing which I do like but don't find necessary to take as
well as music and history classes that have nothing to do with
Sociology. I just don't understand why we have to take all of these
extra classes. But since I do want to learn about Sociology, I am
making the "choice" to take all of these other required courses in
order to graduate.
Sorry, I guess that I kind of got off topic there, lol. I tend to be
very long-winded as all the thoughts in my head come down my arms and
through my fingers to the keyboard, lol. I guess what I am trying to
say above is that I feel that my older two learned the "basics" such as
reading, writing, and basic math. I am worried that taking my 7 year
old out of school now that she will have a harder time learning the
basics. Also, there is a part of me that is still trying to "deschool"
myself. I am feeling that it is "wrong" to take my 7 year old out of
school for some reason that I can't quite explain. But then there is
another part of me that is pulling me to do so just the same. I only
want to do what is best for all 3 of my children. I just don't want to
make the wrong choice that may or may not have detrimental effects on
their future. Any advice on what to do about my 7 year old attending
public school or being unschooled (or even homeschooled)??
Thanks again for all of your advice with this matter. I really appreciate it.
Sherri
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Faith Void
OP: My other dilemma is my
7 year old. She will be entering second grade at the local public
elementary school. I'm debating whether I want to unschool her as well.
Part of me feels like it is the right thing to do but the other part of
me is worried that I will not be able to help her learn the basics. You
guys think that my mom and sister freaked over my two older children,
wait until they hear that I'm thinking of unschooling my youngest! LOL.
***Unschooling while still a verb is also a mindset. What are you thinking
of as "the basics"? You write about it as though there is a set of knowledge
that every single person needs. If there is such a body of knowledge that is
so important to us all then why would it be unfathomable for her to pick up
up through life and through a joyous existence? If it is something so basic
that everyone needs to know it then you *should* know it, that would make
you qualified to share your knowledge with her.
Personally, I don't believe that such a body of knowledge exists. I am
confident that my children can and will learn everything *they* need to be
successful and happy on the life path they chose.
Also, why are you allowing your sister to have a say in how you parent? They
are your children. You don't have to answer to anyone, though your spouse
has some say :-)
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-==-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
OP: My son, the 14 year old, started homeschooling in the 5th grade. It was
his choice. At first, I was against it but then I read all about
homeschooling and the more I read, the more it made sense. I made up
the curriculum myself that year. We lived in North Carolina at the
time. We then moved back to our home state of Ohio and for some reason
I thought that it was going to be more difficult to homeschool. I don't
remember what I read at the time but I didn't think I could homeschool
without a lot of hassle from the system so I enrolled him in the online
school Connections Academy. He was at CA for 6th, 7th, and most of 8th
grade.
***You can educate your children at home in all 50 states. You may educate
them in any way that that works for your family, including unschooling.
Different states have difference accountability laws. Some states are
tougher than others. States like NV are very easy and places like PA and NY
have a lot of hurdles...BUT it is still possible to follow your heart and
allow your children to follow theirs.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-==-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
OP: My oldest daughter, 16, attended public school all the way until half
way through her 10th grade year by her choice. She then decided that
she'd like to try the online school but she didn't want to go to CA.
She had heard about a school called Buckeye Online School for Success
from a friend so she started there in December 2008. My son wasn't
happy with CA so he switched to BOSS as well in March of 2009 to finish
out his 8th grade school year.
***These sound like cyber schools? That is public school online. That isn't
even homeschool though physically your children are at home. They are
accountable to
the public school system.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-==-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
OP: In the end, neither one of them was happy with what they were learning.
And whenever I helped them, I didn't quite understand why they had to
learn some of the things that they were learning. I'd tell them "you're
never going to use this, I never did". So many useless things memorized
just to pass a test so the system can say that we are learning as we
should be. I did well in school but that is all I did, memorized things
to pass the test, and then forgot them. The only things that I
remembered were the things important to me. Well, those and some other
useless facts. I said to my sister the other day that if someone asked
me who the 10th President of the United States was, I could tell them
that it was John Tyler but who really cares. Unless I was going on to
be a historian or a history teacher, etc., then who really cares if I
know some meaningless historical facts. I think that my son did best
the year in NC that I homeschooled. I made up math lessons
incorporating his favorite sport, Nascar racing. He loved that! Reading
and writing consisted of more of Nascar, as well as other things he was
interested in such as music, guitar playing, bicycle repair, etc. He
did so much better when learning about things that he liked than being
forced to learn. We even went to Lowe's Motor Speedway (an hour from us
at the time) and to Dale Earnhardt, Inc. (about 30 to 40 minutes away
from us). And I also worked at Doug Herbert Performance (he's a
dragster) for a while so my son got to learn and see first hand about
the world of racing which our whole family loves.
***That all sounds like you are on the right track for what works for your
family. Unschooling would be taking that a few steps further.
Instead of using NAScar to "teach" your son things, unschooling would have
you supporting your sons interest in NAScar without using it as teachable
moments or to fit your agenda. He will learn from his interests (everyone
does!). But the focus would be on his enjoyment of NAScar as a whole rather
than breaking interests down in to neat little subject areas, like math,
reading or history. Through a natural exploration of a passion (NAScar) he
will likely tough on everything you can think of an more. It will (joyfully)
lead him on to other thoughts and ideas and places/things to explore. He
will love his life and learn. Because that what humans do.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-==-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Also, I am starting Kent State at the end of this month. I am not
taking my first choice. I wanted to take Thanatology but that is not
offered at any Ohio school. The closest school that I could find
offering it was in Maryland. My other choice would be to take an online
course in Thanatology. However, I can not get financial aid for the
online course. So I have had to find a close substitution. I am going
to be taking Sociology which covers way more than Thanatology but does
offer one semester in it. I don't know what I want to do once I
graduate but I am just interested in both Thanatology and Sociology.
The problem that I have is all the extra courses that I "must" take in
order to graduate. Why do I need 4 semesters of a foreign language? I'm
not moving to another country. I took 3 years of Spanish in high school
because I wanted to but now I don't want to, lol. Also, I have to take
College Writing which I do like but don't find necessary to take as
well as music and history classes that have nothing to do with
Sociology. I just don't understand why we have to take all of these
extra classes. But since I do want to learn about Sociology, I am
making the "choice" to take all of these other required courses in
order to graduate.
*** I have grown to apply unschooling thought to my whole life. Why do you
need to go to school to explore this subject at all? You can study death in
a variety of ways that may interest you more than fulfilling someone else's
requirements. Can you just take the online courses you want and scrap the
rest? If you are looking for a certain job that requires a certain
credintial than explore it further. I have had any job I have ever wanted.
AND I am a high school drop out. I am also an autodidact. I have learned
everything I need to on my own. I can figure out ways to help others
understand what I know and how I can be an asset to them. You can too, we
all can.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-==-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Sorry, I guess that I kind of got off topic there, lol. I tend to be
very long-winded as all the thoughts in my head come down my arms and
through my fingers to the keyboard, lol. I guess what I am trying to
say above is that I feel that my older two learned the "basics" such as
reading, writing, and basic math. I am worried that taking my 7 year
old out of school now that she will have a harder time learning the
basics. Also, there is a part of me that is still trying to "deschool"
myself. I am feeling that it is "wrong" to take my 7 year old out of
school for some reason that I can't quite explain. But then there is
another part of me that is pulling me to do so just the same. I only
want to do what is best for all 3 of my children. I just don't want to
make the wrong choice that may or may not have detrimental effects on
their future. Any advice on what to do about my 7 year old attending
public school or being unschooled (or even homeschooled)??
***It would help you to clarify it. Why do you fear that your 7 year old
will never learn the "basics"? Write it out. Examine it and see if it is
really the truth.
Where do you live? It might help to get yourself to an unschooling gathering
or conference. See, meet and chat with REAL LIVE unschoolers. You can see
for yourself the depth and intelligence of these amazing children who
parents support and nurture their passions without controlling it.
There is one in MA this month NorthEast Unschoolers Conference *
http://www.northeastunschoolingconference.com/
*There is one in September in MD Enjoy Life Unschooling Conference *
http://enjoylifeunschooling.com/*
There are several others in other states almost every month! It is amazing
how absolutely life changing it is to see unschooling in action if you have
never experienced it before.
I am thinking that you are taking this a little too seriously, to where you
are working yourself up a little. Ask yourself... How would supporting and
respecting your children and helping them find joyous ways to live and love
life be detrimental? Unschooling is about connecting, exploring, enjoying,
loving, respecting, passion, these things are not going to hurt anyone. You
can't go wrong respecting your children.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-==-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Faith
--
http://faithvoid.blogspot.com/
www.bearthmama.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
7 year old. She will be entering second grade at the local public
elementary school. I'm debating whether I want to unschool her as well.
Part of me feels like it is the right thing to do but the other part of
me is worried that I will not be able to help her learn the basics. You
guys think that my mom and sister freaked over my two older children,
wait until they hear that I'm thinking of unschooling my youngest! LOL.
***Unschooling while still a verb is also a mindset. What are you thinking
of as "the basics"? You write about it as though there is a set of knowledge
that every single person needs. If there is such a body of knowledge that is
so important to us all then why would it be unfathomable for her to pick up
up through life and through a joyous existence? If it is something so basic
that everyone needs to know it then you *should* know it, that would make
you qualified to share your knowledge with her.
Personally, I don't believe that such a body of knowledge exists. I am
confident that my children can and will learn everything *they* need to be
successful and happy on the life path they chose.
Also, why are you allowing your sister to have a say in how you parent? They
are your children. You don't have to answer to anyone, though your spouse
has some say :-)
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-==-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
OP: My son, the 14 year old, started homeschooling in the 5th grade. It was
his choice. At first, I was against it but then I read all about
homeschooling and the more I read, the more it made sense. I made up
the curriculum myself that year. We lived in North Carolina at the
time. We then moved back to our home state of Ohio and for some reason
I thought that it was going to be more difficult to homeschool. I don't
remember what I read at the time but I didn't think I could homeschool
without a lot of hassle from the system so I enrolled him in the online
school Connections Academy. He was at CA for 6th, 7th, and most of 8th
grade.
***You can educate your children at home in all 50 states. You may educate
them in any way that that works for your family, including unschooling.
Different states have difference accountability laws. Some states are
tougher than others. States like NV are very easy and places like PA and NY
have a lot of hurdles...BUT it is still possible to follow your heart and
allow your children to follow theirs.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-==-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
OP: My oldest daughter, 16, attended public school all the way until half
way through her 10th grade year by her choice. She then decided that
she'd like to try the online school but she didn't want to go to CA.
She had heard about a school called Buckeye Online School for Success
from a friend so she started there in December 2008. My son wasn't
happy with CA so he switched to BOSS as well in March of 2009 to finish
out his 8th grade school year.
***These sound like cyber schools? That is public school online. That isn't
even homeschool though physically your children are at home. They are
accountable to
the public school system.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-==-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
OP: In the end, neither one of them was happy with what they were learning.
And whenever I helped them, I didn't quite understand why they had to
learn some of the things that they were learning. I'd tell them "you're
never going to use this, I never did". So many useless things memorized
just to pass a test so the system can say that we are learning as we
should be. I did well in school but that is all I did, memorized things
to pass the test, and then forgot them. The only things that I
remembered were the things important to me. Well, those and some other
useless facts. I said to my sister the other day that if someone asked
me who the 10th President of the United States was, I could tell them
that it was John Tyler but who really cares. Unless I was going on to
be a historian or a history teacher, etc., then who really cares if I
know some meaningless historical facts. I think that my son did best
the year in NC that I homeschooled. I made up math lessons
incorporating his favorite sport, Nascar racing. He loved that! Reading
and writing consisted of more of Nascar, as well as other things he was
interested in such as music, guitar playing, bicycle repair, etc. He
did so much better when learning about things that he liked than being
forced to learn. We even went to Lowe's Motor Speedway (an hour from us
at the time) and to Dale Earnhardt, Inc. (about 30 to 40 minutes away
from us). And I also worked at Doug Herbert Performance (he's a
dragster) for a while so my son got to learn and see first hand about
the world of racing which our whole family loves.
***That all sounds like you are on the right track for what works for your
family. Unschooling would be taking that a few steps further.
Instead of using NAScar to "teach" your son things, unschooling would have
you supporting your sons interest in NAScar without using it as teachable
moments or to fit your agenda. He will learn from his interests (everyone
does!). But the focus would be on his enjoyment of NAScar as a whole rather
than breaking interests down in to neat little subject areas, like math,
reading or history. Through a natural exploration of a passion (NAScar) he
will likely tough on everything you can think of an more. It will (joyfully)
lead him on to other thoughts and ideas and places/things to explore. He
will love his life and learn. Because that what humans do.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-==-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Also, I am starting Kent State at the end of this month. I am not
taking my first choice. I wanted to take Thanatology but that is not
offered at any Ohio school. The closest school that I could find
offering it was in Maryland. My other choice would be to take an online
course in Thanatology. However, I can not get financial aid for the
online course. So I have had to find a close substitution. I am going
to be taking Sociology which covers way more than Thanatology but does
offer one semester in it. I don't know what I want to do once I
graduate but I am just interested in both Thanatology and Sociology.
The problem that I have is all the extra courses that I "must" take in
order to graduate. Why do I need 4 semesters of a foreign language? I'm
not moving to another country. I took 3 years of Spanish in high school
because I wanted to but now I don't want to, lol. Also, I have to take
College Writing which I do like but don't find necessary to take as
well as music and history classes that have nothing to do with
Sociology. I just don't understand why we have to take all of these
extra classes. But since I do want to learn about Sociology, I am
making the "choice" to take all of these other required courses in
order to graduate.
*** I have grown to apply unschooling thought to my whole life. Why do you
need to go to school to explore this subject at all? You can study death in
a variety of ways that may interest you more than fulfilling someone else's
requirements. Can you just take the online courses you want and scrap the
rest? If you are looking for a certain job that requires a certain
credintial than explore it further. I have had any job I have ever wanted.
AND I am a high school drop out. I am also an autodidact. I have learned
everything I need to on my own. I can figure out ways to help others
understand what I know and how I can be an asset to them. You can too, we
all can.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-==-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Sorry, I guess that I kind of got off topic there, lol. I tend to be
very long-winded as all the thoughts in my head come down my arms and
through my fingers to the keyboard, lol. I guess what I am trying to
say above is that I feel that my older two learned the "basics" such as
reading, writing, and basic math. I am worried that taking my 7 year
old out of school now that she will have a harder time learning the
basics. Also, there is a part of me that is still trying to "deschool"
myself. I am feeling that it is "wrong" to take my 7 year old out of
school for some reason that I can't quite explain. But then there is
another part of me that is pulling me to do so just the same. I only
want to do what is best for all 3 of my children. I just don't want to
make the wrong choice that may or may not have detrimental effects on
their future. Any advice on what to do about my 7 year old attending
public school or being unschooled (or even homeschooled)??
***It would help you to clarify it. Why do you fear that your 7 year old
will never learn the "basics"? Write it out. Examine it and see if it is
really the truth.
Where do you live? It might help to get yourself to an unschooling gathering
or conference. See, meet and chat with REAL LIVE unschoolers. You can see
for yourself the depth and intelligence of these amazing children who
parents support and nurture their passions without controlling it.
There is one in MA this month NorthEast Unschoolers Conference *
http://www.northeastunschoolingconference.com/
*There is one in September in MD Enjoy Life Unschooling Conference *
http://enjoylifeunschooling.com/*
There are several others in other states almost every month! It is amazing
how absolutely life changing it is to see unschooling in action if you have
never experienced it before.
I am thinking that you are taking this a little too seriously, to where you
are working yourself up a little. Ask yourself... How would supporting and
respecting your children and helping them find joyous ways to live and love
life be detrimental? Unschooling is about connecting, exploring, enjoying,
loving, respecting, passion, these things are not going to hurt anyone. You
can't go wrong respecting your children.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-==-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Faith
--
http://faithvoid.blogspot.com/
www.bearthmama.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
JJ Ross
"***These sound like cyber schools? That is public school online. That isn't even homeschool though physically your children are at home. They are accountable to the public school system."
Not necessarily true for all cyberschool, virtual and charter programs, in all states much less all nations, and things keep changing year to year no matter where we are. (Ohio in particular is difficult on these issues.) Unschoolers needn't bother about making judgments or issuing generalities.
Not necessarily true for all cyberschool, virtual and charter programs, in all states much less all nations, and things keep changing year to year no matter where we are. (Ohio in particular is difficult on these issues.) Unschoolers needn't bother about making judgments or issuing generalities.
Faith Void
There was no judgements issued. They were facts to the best of my
knowledge. I reread post and I can't see any judgements. In PA and
several other states when I google searched. Cyber schools are public
school curriculum done at home. The child/parent are accountable to
the public school system. Under the law the children in these programs
are considered public school students. This is different from being a
homeschooler. I also don't believe I made a blanket statment about all
states or all nations. You quote from me has me saying "it sounds
like..." I made this distinction for this woman as she wrote as though
she was confused about her various options and what they meant.
If you are an expert on OH homeschooling then please advise this woman
of her options. I can only speak to my experiences and knowledge. I
know much more about PA law and compliance. I believe I spoke to that.
Faith
Sent from my iPhone
knowledge. I reread post and I can't see any judgements. In PA and
several other states when I google searched. Cyber schools are public
school curriculum done at home. The child/parent are accountable to
the public school system. Under the law the children in these programs
are considered public school students. This is different from being a
homeschooler. I also don't believe I made a blanket statment about all
states or all nations. You quote from me has me saying "it sounds
like..." I made this distinction for this woman as she wrote as though
she was confused about her various options and what they meant.
If you are an expert on OH homeschooling then please advise this woman
of her options. I can only speak to my experiences and knowledge. I
know much more about PA law and compliance. I believe I spoke to that.
Faith
Sent from my iPhone
On Aug 10, 2009, at 5:03 PM, "JJ Ross" <jrossedd@...> wrote:
> "***These sound like cyber schools? That is public school online.
> That isn't even homeschool though physically your children are at
> home. They are accountable to the public school system."
>
> Not necessarily true for all cyberschool, virtual and charter
> programs, in all states much less all nations, and things keep
> changing year to year no matter where we are. (Ohio in particular is
> difficult on these issues.) Unschoolers needn't bother about making
> judgments or issuing generalities.
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
JJ Ross
If you haven't experienced this maddeningly divisive battle over such programs, what they are and who uses them with which strings for what purposes and what they can or can't be called, etc, count yourself lucky and just leave it alone instead of defending and repeating the inaccuracies -- that's something I AM an expert on and I have the scars to prove it. Getting into that won't help anyone unschool.
--- In [email protected], Faith Void <littlemsvoid@...> wrote:
>
> There was no judgements issued. They were facts to the best of my
> knowledge. I reread post and I can't see any judgements. In PA and
> several other states when I google searched. Cyber schools are public
> school curriculum done at home. The child/parent are accountable to
> the public school system. Under the law the children in these programs
> are considered public school students. This is different from being a
> homeschooler. I also don't believe I made a blanket statment about all
> states or all nations. You quote from me has me saying "it sounds
> like..." I made this distinction for this woman as she wrote as though
> she was confused about her various options and what they meant.
>
> If you are an expert on OH homeschooling then please advise this woman
> of her options. I can only speak to my experiences and knowledge. I
> know much more about PA law and compliance. I believe I spoke to that.
>
> Faith
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Aug 10, 2009, at 5:03 PM, "JJ Ross" <jrossedd@...> wrote:
>
> > "***These sound like cyber schools? That is public school online.
> > That isn't even homeschool though physically your children are at
> > home. They are accountable to the public school system."
> >
> > Not necessarily true for all cyberschool, virtual and charter
> > programs, in all states much less all nations, and things keep
> > changing year to year no matter where we are. (Ohio in particular is
> > difficult on these issues.) Unschoolers needn't bother about making
> > judgments or issuing generalities.
> >
> >
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
[email protected]
I didn't mean to start a debate. I also never claimed to be homeschooling my children when I said that they attended online school. I did say that I homeschooled my son in NC for a year before moving back to Ohio. I then said that my son went to the online school, Connections Academy for the next almost 3 years when he switched to Buckeye Online School for Success in March 2009. I also said that my oldest daughter went to the local public school until December of 2008 when she switched to BOSS. I know that both of these online schools are considered public schools. I never claimed that they weren't. And I never claimed to be homeschooling my children. I only offered this information as background information for my situation.
I realize that I am long winded. I shouldn't have offered so much information. I really didn't want questions or comments on any of the background information. I only wanted my questions answered. I guess that I should have just typed the one question that I truly wanted answered which was "How do I know that my 7 year old will still learn the basics if she is unschooled?". And thank you, because you did answer that for me. I appreciate your response to that.
And I guess that I can't complain about any of the other comments made since I threw all of that information out there in the first place. I will try to shorten my questions in the future.
I really like the idea of unschooling but one thing that I've noticed in several of these groups is how "politically correct" everyone has to be for fear of setting someone off. Instead of just saying what you feel and think, you have to watch what you say because you might not phrase it quite right. Example being, when in one group, someone said they were taught to read at age 4, for example, and someone else replied with you weren't "taught" to read, you "learned" to read all on your own. True, but must we be so callous that we have to respond back with harsh criticism of what another says. In this case, I am not referring to the original responder to me but to the responder to her. And I realize that you were just defending me which I appreciate but I am able to defend myself if I feel that something didn't come across right through my post.
Yesterday, I had someone respond to a post of mine by criticizing me for saying "you'll never use this, I didn't" just as an example of the things that schools are teaching my children that they don't care about or want to learn. I never said that it pertained to everything or that I wouldn't support my children if they did want to learn it. Wow! I just wanted a few answers to my questions about unschooling and now I am just feeling the tension in these groups, that I'm not so sure that I'd want to go meet anyone, for fear of what I might say that would not be considered "unschooling" talk.
I do appreciate all of the advice and suggestions. I will try to only ask my specific questions from now on.
Thank you,
Sherri
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"OP: My oldest daughter, 16, attended public school all the way until half
way through her 10th grade year by her choice. She then decided that
she'd like to try the online school but she didn't want to go to CA.
She had heard about a school called Buckeye Online School for Success
from a friend so she started there in December 2008. My son wasn't
happy with CA so he switched to BOSS as well in March of 2009 to finish
out his 8th grade school year.
***These sound like cyber schools? That is public school online. That isn't
even homeschool though physically your children are at home. They are
accountable to
the public school system."
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I realize that I am long winded. I shouldn't have offered so much information. I really didn't want questions or comments on any of the background information. I only wanted my questions answered. I guess that I should have just typed the one question that I truly wanted answered which was "How do I know that my 7 year old will still learn the basics if she is unschooled?". And thank you, because you did answer that for me. I appreciate your response to that.
And I guess that I can't complain about any of the other comments made since I threw all of that information out there in the first place. I will try to shorten my questions in the future.
I really like the idea of unschooling but one thing that I've noticed in several of these groups is how "politically correct" everyone has to be for fear of setting someone off. Instead of just saying what you feel and think, you have to watch what you say because you might not phrase it quite right. Example being, when in one group, someone said they were taught to read at age 4, for example, and someone else replied with you weren't "taught" to read, you "learned" to read all on your own. True, but must we be so callous that we have to respond back with harsh criticism of what another says. In this case, I am not referring to the original responder to me but to the responder to her. And I realize that you were just defending me which I appreciate but I am able to defend myself if I feel that something didn't come across right through my post.
Yesterday, I had someone respond to a post of mine by criticizing me for saying "you'll never use this, I didn't" just as an example of the things that schools are teaching my children that they don't care about or want to learn. I never said that it pertained to everything or that I wouldn't support my children if they did want to learn it. Wow! I just wanted a few answers to my questions about unschooling and now I am just feeling the tension in these groups, that I'm not so sure that I'd want to go meet anyone, for fear of what I might say that would not be considered "unschooling" talk.
I do appreciate all of the advice and suggestions. I will try to only ask my specific questions from now on.
Thank you,
Sherri
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"OP: My oldest daughter, 16, attended public school all the way until half
way through her 10th grade year by her choice. She then decided that
she'd like to try the online school but she didn't want to go to CA.
She had heard about a school called Buckeye Online School for Success
from a friend so she started there in December 2008. My son wasn't
happy with CA so he switched to BOSS as well in March of 2009 to finish
out his 8th grade school year.
***These sound like cyber schools? That is public school online. That isn't
even homeschool though physically your children are at home. They are
accountable to
the public school system."
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
OP:***Unschooling while still a verb is also a mindset. What are you thinking
of as "the basics"? You write about it as though there is a set of knowledge
that every single person needs. If there is such a body of knowledge that is
so important to us all then why would it be unfathomable for her to pick up
up through life and through a joyous existence? If it is something so basic
that everyone needs to know it then you *should* know it, that would make
you qualified to share your knowledge with her.
~~ I was thinking of reading, writing, math, etc. as some 'basics". But I agree with what you have said. It makes sense. Thank you.
OP:***Also, why are you allowing your sister to have a say in how you parent? They are your children. You don't have to answer to anyone, though your spouse has some say :-)
~~ I am not allowing my sister to have a say in how I parent. I was merely stating that my mother and sister are opposed to unschooling. I just wanted to know what information I could give them to make them understand that this is what is best for my kids. Also, I am a single mom so I have no spouse to have any say. My ex-husband passed away last year, he was the father of my oldest two children. My youngest daughter's father and I were never married. He is not in her life at all so I am the only one making the decisions. Hence, why I still respect my mother's and sister's thoughts but I still get to make the final decision on my own.
OP:***You can educate your children at home in all 50 states. You may educate them in any way that that works for your family, including unschooling. Different states have difference accountability laws. Some states are tougher than others. States like NV are very easy and places like PA and NY have a lot of hurdles...BUT it is still possible to follow your heart and allow your children to follow theirs.
~~ I realize that you can homeschool in all 50 states. I said that I didn't remember what I read but that for some reason I thought that it would be more difficult to homeschool in Ohio. I can't cite what I read because I don't recall where I read it now. However, I have read more now and have found all the steps that I need to take in order to satisfy the state's "legal" requirements for homeschooling.
OP:***These sound like cyber schools? That is public school online. That isn't even homeschool though physically your children are at home. They are
accountable to the public school system.
~~ You are correct, these are cyber schools. No one said that they weren't. I never claimed that these online public schools had anything to do with homeschooling, you did.
OP:***That all sounds like you are on the right track for what works for your
family. Unschooling would be taking that a few steps further.
Instead of using NAScar to "teach" your son things, unschooling would have
you supporting your sons interest in NAScar without using it as teachable
moments or to fit your agenda. He will learn from his interests (everyone
does!). But the focus would be on his enjoyment of NAScar as a whole rather
than breaking interests down in to neat little subject areas, like math,
reading or history. Through a natural exploration of a passion (NAScar) he
will likely tough on everything you can think of an more. It will (joyfully)
lead him on to other thoughts and ideas and places/things to explore. He
will love his life and learn. Because that what humans do.
~~ I agree with you.
OP:*** I have grown to apply unschooling thought to my whole life. Why do you need to go to school to explore this subject at all? You can study death in a variety of ways that may interest you more than fulfilling someone else's
requirements. Can you just take the online courses you want and scrap the
rest? If you are looking for a certain job that requires a certain credintial than explore it further. I have had any job I have ever wanted. AND I am a high school drop out. I am also an autodidact. I have learned everything I need to on my own. I can figure out ways to help others understand what I know and how I can be an asset to them. You can too, we all can.
~~ I would love to take the online courses as you have suggested but if you read my post you would have seen that financial aid will not cover taking the online courses. I do not have the resources to pay for these courses. If I go to Kent State, I qualify for financial aid to cover everything. I would love to get any job that I have ever wanted. However, I wonder how you have done so. When they ask where you learned whatever you needed in order to do the job, and you told them that you just learned it "on your own", are you telling me that they just hired you on the spot? I find it hard to believe that a business will hire someone that says they learned the trade or whatever on their own without having a degree or certification of some sort. I am not saying that it is right. You may know just as much as the next guy that went to college. I am just saying that I find it hard to believe. If I could get whatever job I wanted without having to go to college, I probably would have done it by now. Please tell me how I can do that?
OP:***It would help you to clarify it. Why do you fear that your 7 year old
will never learn the "basics"? Write it out. Examine it and see if it is
really the truth.
~~ As I said above, I am considering the basics to be reading, writing, and basic math. I suppose that I can help my daughter learn these things. I actually already do. She asks me to spell different words all the time or she tells me letters and asks me what they spell. I guess that since I went through public school, even though I like the idea of unschooling, I am still just a tiny tad bit skeptical that my children, especially the youngest, will be able to learn all she needs to. I do understand what you are saying though about who determines what my children need to learn or not learn. I guess that they will learn everything that they need to know all on their own. The problem being that society doesn't always agree with that. Society wants to see the diploma, the degree, or the certification.
OP:***Where do you live? It might help to get yourself to an unschooling gathering or conference. See, meet and chat with REAL LIVE unschoolers. You can see for yourself the depth and intelligence of these amazing children who parents support and nurture their passions without controlling it.
~~ I did say in my post that I live in Ohio. Quite frankly though, I'm not sure if I want to go to a gathering or conference because it seems that, from reading a lot of these posts, that a lot of unschooling parents only see things from their perspective. And although I appreciate that perspective seeing as I want to know why I should unschool, I also don't like being knocked for things that I may or may not agree with.
OP:***I am thinking that you are taking this a little too seriously, to where you are working yourself up a little. Ask yourself... How would supporting and
respecting your children and helping them find joyous ways to live and love
life be detrimental? Unschooling is about connecting, exploring, enjoying,
loving, respecting, passion, these things are not going to hurt anyone. You
can't go wrong respecting your children.
~~ I totally agree with your statement above. Thank you for you suggestions and comments.
Sherri
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
of as "the basics"? You write about it as though there is a set of knowledge
that every single person needs. If there is such a body of knowledge that is
so important to us all then why would it be unfathomable for her to pick up
up through life and through a joyous existence? If it is something so basic
that everyone needs to know it then you *should* know it, that would make
you qualified to share your knowledge with her.
~~ I was thinking of reading, writing, math, etc. as some 'basics". But I agree with what you have said. It makes sense. Thank you.
OP:***Also, why are you allowing your sister to have a say in how you parent? They are your children. You don't have to answer to anyone, though your spouse has some say :-)
~~ I am not allowing my sister to have a say in how I parent. I was merely stating that my mother and sister are opposed to unschooling. I just wanted to know what information I could give them to make them understand that this is what is best for my kids. Also, I am a single mom so I have no spouse to have any say. My ex-husband passed away last year, he was the father of my oldest two children. My youngest daughter's father and I were never married. He is not in her life at all so I am the only one making the decisions. Hence, why I still respect my mother's and sister's thoughts but I still get to make the final decision on my own.
OP:***You can educate your children at home in all 50 states. You may educate them in any way that that works for your family, including unschooling. Different states have difference accountability laws. Some states are tougher than others. States like NV are very easy and places like PA and NY have a lot of hurdles...BUT it is still possible to follow your heart and allow your children to follow theirs.
~~ I realize that you can homeschool in all 50 states. I said that I didn't remember what I read but that for some reason I thought that it would be more difficult to homeschool in Ohio. I can't cite what I read because I don't recall where I read it now. However, I have read more now and have found all the steps that I need to take in order to satisfy the state's "legal" requirements for homeschooling.
OP:***These sound like cyber schools? That is public school online. That isn't even homeschool though physically your children are at home. They are
accountable to the public school system.
~~ You are correct, these are cyber schools. No one said that they weren't. I never claimed that these online public schools had anything to do with homeschooling, you did.
OP:***That all sounds like you are on the right track for what works for your
family. Unschooling would be taking that a few steps further.
Instead of using NAScar to "teach" your son things, unschooling would have
you supporting your sons interest in NAScar without using it as teachable
moments or to fit your agenda. He will learn from his interests (everyone
does!). But the focus would be on his enjoyment of NAScar as a whole rather
than breaking interests down in to neat little subject areas, like math,
reading or history. Through a natural exploration of a passion (NAScar) he
will likely tough on everything you can think of an more. It will (joyfully)
lead him on to other thoughts and ideas and places/things to explore. He
will love his life and learn. Because that what humans do.
~~ I agree with you.
OP:*** I have grown to apply unschooling thought to my whole life. Why do you need to go to school to explore this subject at all? You can study death in a variety of ways that may interest you more than fulfilling someone else's
requirements. Can you just take the online courses you want and scrap the
rest? If you are looking for a certain job that requires a certain credintial than explore it further. I have had any job I have ever wanted. AND I am a high school drop out. I am also an autodidact. I have learned everything I need to on my own. I can figure out ways to help others understand what I know and how I can be an asset to them. You can too, we all can.
~~ I would love to take the online courses as you have suggested but if you read my post you would have seen that financial aid will not cover taking the online courses. I do not have the resources to pay for these courses. If I go to Kent State, I qualify for financial aid to cover everything. I would love to get any job that I have ever wanted. However, I wonder how you have done so. When they ask where you learned whatever you needed in order to do the job, and you told them that you just learned it "on your own", are you telling me that they just hired you on the spot? I find it hard to believe that a business will hire someone that says they learned the trade or whatever on their own without having a degree or certification of some sort. I am not saying that it is right. You may know just as much as the next guy that went to college. I am just saying that I find it hard to believe. If I could get whatever job I wanted without having to go to college, I probably would have done it by now. Please tell me how I can do that?
OP:***It would help you to clarify it. Why do you fear that your 7 year old
will never learn the "basics"? Write it out. Examine it and see if it is
really the truth.
~~ As I said above, I am considering the basics to be reading, writing, and basic math. I suppose that I can help my daughter learn these things. I actually already do. She asks me to spell different words all the time or she tells me letters and asks me what they spell. I guess that since I went through public school, even though I like the idea of unschooling, I am still just a tiny tad bit skeptical that my children, especially the youngest, will be able to learn all she needs to. I do understand what you are saying though about who determines what my children need to learn or not learn. I guess that they will learn everything that they need to know all on their own. The problem being that society doesn't always agree with that. Society wants to see the diploma, the degree, or the certification.
OP:***Where do you live? It might help to get yourself to an unschooling gathering or conference. See, meet and chat with REAL LIVE unschoolers. You can see for yourself the depth and intelligence of these amazing children who parents support and nurture their passions without controlling it.
~~ I did say in my post that I live in Ohio. Quite frankly though, I'm not sure if I want to go to a gathering or conference because it seems that, from reading a lot of these posts, that a lot of unschooling parents only see things from their perspective. And although I appreciate that perspective seeing as I want to know why I should unschool, I also don't like being knocked for things that I may or may not agree with.
OP:***I am thinking that you are taking this a little too seriously, to where you are working yourself up a little. Ask yourself... How would supporting and
respecting your children and helping them find joyous ways to live and love
life be detrimental? Unschooling is about connecting, exploring, enjoying,
loving, respecting, passion, these things are not going to hurt anyone. You
can't go wrong respecting your children.
~~ I totally agree with your statement above. Thank you for you suggestions and comments.
Sherri
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Ren Allen
~~Cyber schools are public
If you want to read my take on it, you can go to the discussions from the very beginning of this list, when Helen used to be a member here and weighed in with her opinion.
If a child is at home, doing any kind of education it is homeschooling in my opinion. It matters not one whit whether they are using public school curriculum or not. Do I think that's a great way to educate? NO. Do I think it's confusing? Somewhat...sure.
I know of cyber schools and public funds in which the parents and children still have complete control over how they want to use it and what they learn. In Alaska, there are many schools that give the homeschooling parents money for supplies and don't require it be curriculum at ALL. My sister bought a ton of cool, fun books and bikes/trampoline etc...for her children through one of the programs for years. According to that document the Hegeners signed, my sister was not a homeschooler even though her kids NEVER used any kind of curriculum nor stepped foot in a school.
It's divisive and unecessary.
Homeschooling is school at home. I don't care for school at home but you could still consider it all homeschooling regardless of the curriculum. Unschooling is a whole other ball-o-wax and that's what we need to stick with discussing anyway.
I just figured a lot of folks may not know about some of the divisiveness that has sprung up around this issue and not realize how people want to turn this into a black and white when it's very grey.
I think most of the time homeschoolers of all kinds are better off not taking money from the government because you slowly get more and more erosion of your freedom. Are you still a homeschooler just because you use some of those funds? I say YES.
Ren
radicalunschooling.blogspot.com
> school curriculum done at home. The child/parent are accountable toI'm jumping in because I see what may be a misunderstanding developing. Not all Cyber schools are public school curriculum done at home. Not at all. What JJ is referring to (I believe...correct me if I'm wrong) is the very divisive document that the Hegeners were very supportive of, saying that if anyone used ANY cyber school or public school funds of ANY kind, they were not homeschoolers. It was a poorly worded document and caused a lot of irritation and grief.
> the public school system. Under the law the children in these programs
> are considered public school students. ~~
If you want to read my take on it, you can go to the discussions from the very beginning of this list, when Helen used to be a member here and weighed in with her opinion.
If a child is at home, doing any kind of education it is homeschooling in my opinion. It matters not one whit whether they are using public school curriculum or not. Do I think that's a great way to educate? NO. Do I think it's confusing? Somewhat...sure.
I know of cyber schools and public funds in which the parents and children still have complete control over how they want to use it and what they learn. In Alaska, there are many schools that give the homeschooling parents money for supplies and don't require it be curriculum at ALL. My sister bought a ton of cool, fun books and bikes/trampoline etc...for her children through one of the programs for years. According to that document the Hegeners signed, my sister was not a homeschooler even though her kids NEVER used any kind of curriculum nor stepped foot in a school.
It's divisive and unecessary.
Homeschooling is school at home. I don't care for school at home but you could still consider it all homeschooling regardless of the curriculum. Unschooling is a whole other ball-o-wax and that's what we need to stick with discussing anyway.
I just figured a lot of folks may not know about some of the divisiveness that has sprung up around this issue and not realize how people want to turn this into a black and white when it's very grey.
I think most of the time homeschoolers of all kinds are better off not taking money from the government because you slowly get more and more erosion of your freedom. Are you still a homeschooler just because you use some of those funds? I say YES.
Ren
radicalunschooling.blogspot.com
Ren Allen
~~Under the law the children in these programs
For example, when we first started homeschooling in WA state in '95-
96, we signed up with a cyber school called "Home-link". It's changed a lot since we were there, but at the time it was run completely by homeschool parents and kids. We could sign up for 1-3 classes per week (maximum) and learn things like computer, sign language, gardening, music etc... the classes being decided by whomever had something to share and willing to run it. I was set to teach a music/art class but then we chose to move.
We weren't unschoolers, but the school would have worked for unschoolers because it was completely and entirely up to the kids and parents what they wanted to learn. If you didn't like a class you could leave at any time. If you wanted to learn something you could get a class started. There were quite a few mainstream types there but overall it was very, very eclectic and swirly.
We were classified as "public school". Even though my kids were home with me and we took a couple of classes each term, we weren't labeled as homeschoolers. I really don't give a hoot what the government or some divisive document wants to label us....we were homeschoolers.
Ren
radicalunschooling.blogspot.com
> are considered public school students. This is different from being aI agree with Faith that the OP is probably using a school-at-home approach, however, just because the law classifies you in some way doesn't mean you are that classification. Anyone in TN who uses a cover school is listed as a "private schooled" not a homeschooler. The classifications have to do with government and do not necessarily have anything to do with how/what you choose to do in your home.
> homeschooler.~~
For example, when we first started homeschooling in WA state in '95-
96, we signed up with a cyber school called "Home-link". It's changed a lot since we were there, but at the time it was run completely by homeschool parents and kids. We could sign up for 1-3 classes per week (maximum) and learn things like computer, sign language, gardening, music etc... the classes being decided by whomever had something to share and willing to run it. I was set to teach a music/art class but then we chose to move.
We weren't unschoolers, but the school would have worked for unschoolers because it was completely and entirely up to the kids and parents what they wanted to learn. If you didn't like a class you could leave at any time. If you wanted to learn something you could get a class started. There were quite a few mainstream types there but overall it was very, very eclectic and swirly.
We were classified as "public school". Even though my kids were home with me and we took a couple of classes each term, we weren't labeled as homeschoolers. I really don't give a hoot what the government or some divisive document wants to label us....we were homeschoolers.
Ren
radicalunschooling.blogspot.com
Schuyler
~~ As I said above, I am considering the basics to be reading, writing, and basic math. I suppose that I can help my daughter learn these things. I actually already do. She asks me to spell different words all the time or she tells me letters and asks me what they spell. I guess that since I went through public school, even though I like the idea of unschooling, I am still just a tiny tad bit skeptical that my children, especially the youngest, will be able to learn all she needs to. I do understand what you are saying though about who determines what my children need to learn or not learn. I guess that they will learn everything that they need to know all on their own. The problem being that society doesn't always agree with that. Society wants to see the diploma, the degree, or the certification.
---------------------
Both of my children have learned a lot of what you are calling "the basics" from a life without instruction or school. And they own it. They have this amazing knowledge that it didn't take someone else to give them knowledge, they got it by living and learning in the world at large. They don't have to believe that "the basics" were so complicated that they owe their understanding of them to someone else.
I wrote "a lot" rather than just "the basics" because they are still learning, always learning. They don't have to master one set of knowledge by some age and be judged as having completed that level well enough to move forward with the rest of the class. They get to wander and amble through the halls of knowledge skipping around and lingering wherever they want. They get to work to whatever proficiency they want to have and then find something else or move to the next tangent. It is truly an amazing thing.
You wrote:
"I am still just a tiny tad bit skeptical that my children, especially the youngest, will be able to learn all she needs to."
It is really hard to see a life that isn't filled with "needs to". But life isn't all that full of them. So much of it is really "chooses to". I'm choosing to write this even though the landlord's representative is coming over for our 6 month checkup and there is still a bit of cleaning to be done. Neither is a "needs to" choice. Without the cleaning we wouldn't be kicked out, but it makes it easier for our relationship with our landlord. Without this e-mail my life would be just as full, but there are things I want to say, so here I am. Reading and writing and 'rithmatic aren't in themselves "needs tos", they are tools to access other things. They are different ways of exploring the world. I have two children who have read at very different ages. Linnaea, my daughter, began reading at 5. Simon, my son, began reading at 11 or just 12. His fluency has come on much more slowly than Linnaea's did. But that may have more to do with the material he is working
to read than it does with his fluency. Having Simon not read until later really showed me how much reading narrows your vision. He sees things that I don't even look for. If there are written instructions, I read those first before looking at something. Simon looks and explores and then may ask what the words say. He listens so much better than I do. And he remembers. Reading works as blinders in some ways. And early reading is only really a good skill when others aren't there and willing to help you to get access to information that is reading only. For schools that's pivotal. When you have a classroom of 20 to 30 children, having them all be able to work on their own and read the material to themselves is really key. But when you have a lower child to adult ratio, when you have a parent and their children, reading early is far less important to the adult. And, as Ren Allen has written, I don't know any adult unschoolers who are illiterate. But I know
a lot of adults who were schooled who hate to read or who are afraid of math. This drive to force people to learn what the state believes are "needs to" know things destroys the curiousity and joy in learning that people start with.
Schuyler
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Both of my children have learned a lot of what you are calling "the basics" from a life without instruction or school. And they own it. They have this amazing knowledge that it didn't take someone else to give them knowledge, they got it by living and learning in the world at large. They don't have to believe that "the basics" were so complicated that they owe their understanding of them to someone else.
I wrote "a lot" rather than just "the basics" because they are still learning, always learning. They don't have to master one set of knowledge by some age and be judged as having completed that level well enough to move forward with the rest of the class. They get to wander and amble through the halls of knowledge skipping around and lingering wherever they want. They get to work to whatever proficiency they want to have and then find something else or move to the next tangent. It is truly an amazing thing.
You wrote:
"I am still just a tiny tad bit skeptical that my children, especially the youngest, will be able to learn all she needs to."
It is really hard to see a life that isn't filled with "needs to". But life isn't all that full of them. So much of it is really "chooses to". I'm choosing to write this even though the landlord's representative is coming over for our 6 month checkup and there is still a bit of cleaning to be done. Neither is a "needs to" choice. Without the cleaning we wouldn't be kicked out, but it makes it easier for our relationship with our landlord. Without this e-mail my life would be just as full, but there are things I want to say, so here I am. Reading and writing and 'rithmatic aren't in themselves "needs tos", they are tools to access other things. They are different ways of exploring the world. I have two children who have read at very different ages. Linnaea, my daughter, began reading at 5. Simon, my son, began reading at 11 or just 12. His fluency has come on much more slowly than Linnaea's did. But that may have more to do with the material he is working
to read than it does with his fluency. Having Simon not read until later really showed me how much reading narrows your vision. He sees things that I don't even look for. If there are written instructions, I read those first before looking at something. Simon looks and explores and then may ask what the words say. He listens so much better than I do. And he remembers. Reading works as blinders in some ways. And early reading is only really a good skill when others aren't there and willing to help you to get access to information that is reading only. For schools that's pivotal. When you have a classroom of 20 to 30 children, having them all be able to work on their own and read the material to themselves is really key. But when you have a lower child to adult ratio, when you have a parent and their children, reading early is far less important to the adult. And, as Ren Allen has written, I don't know any adult unschoolers who are illiterate. But I know
a lot of adults who were schooled who hate to read or who are afraid of math. This drive to force people to learn what the state believes are "needs to" know things destroys the curiousity and joy in learning that people start with.
Schuyler
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Schuyler
I really like the idea of unschooling but one thing that I've noticed in several of these groups is how "politically correct" everyone has to be for fear of setting someone off. Instead of just saying what you feel and think, you have to watch what you say because you might not phrase it quite right. Example being, when in one group, someone said they were taught to read at age 4, for example, and someone else replied with you weren't "taught" to read, you "learned" to read all on your own. True, but must we be so callous that we have to respond back with harsh criticism of what another says. In this case, I am not referring to the original responder to me but to the responder to her. And I realize that you were just defending me which I appreciate but I am able to defend myself if I feel that something didn't come across right through my post.
-----------------
It helps alot to remember that people aren't directly replying to you. They are taking your words and ideas and replying to them.
When someone talks about "teaching" versus "learning" they are changing who the actor is. If I am taught something, I am passive to the experience, whereas when I learn something I am actively doing something. If someone masters reading and attributes it to their teacher it means that reading becomes something that can only be handed on to the next person. If someone masters reading and attributes that mastery to themselves, than reading is something that is part of the human experience and given the right environment is something that can be learned without needing to be instructed. It is a powerful and a key understanding for unschooling. It isn't just semantics, it isn't just being petty or mean or politically correct to work to get that piece of the philosophy across. http://sandradodd.com/teaching/%c2%a0is a series of perspectives on why there is a discussion whenever teaching comes up. And this response from Joyce Fetteroll about why people talk about
language used (the word being discussed is lazy) on lists like this so much may help you to see why a discussion about one thing may become a discussion about the words being used to describe the one thing: http://sandradodd.com/lazy
And about the idea that what you write to a public forum remains a discussion about you and your life Joyce once wrote:
The list is about ideas, not about people. Think of ideas like balls and the list like a ball court. If someone tosses an idea worth discussing into the court it's going to get batted about. At that point what's going on is no longer about the person who tossed the idea in. It's about the idea and how well and cleanly it's being tossed about. (Unless the tosser keeps jumping in and grabbing the idea ball saying "Mine!") (there are other ideas like that here: http://sandradodd.com/lists/alwayslearning)
Schuyler
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
-----------------
It helps alot to remember that people aren't directly replying to you. They are taking your words and ideas and replying to them.
When someone talks about "teaching" versus "learning" they are changing who the actor is. If I am taught something, I am passive to the experience, whereas when I learn something I am actively doing something. If someone masters reading and attributes it to their teacher it means that reading becomes something that can only be handed on to the next person. If someone masters reading and attributes that mastery to themselves, than reading is something that is part of the human experience and given the right environment is something that can be learned without needing to be instructed. It is a powerful and a key understanding for unschooling. It isn't just semantics, it isn't just being petty or mean or politically correct to work to get that piece of the philosophy across. http://sandradodd.com/teaching/%c2%a0is a series of perspectives on why there is a discussion whenever teaching comes up. And this response from Joyce Fetteroll about why people talk about
language used (the word being discussed is lazy) on lists like this so much may help you to see why a discussion about one thing may become a discussion about the words being used to describe the one thing: http://sandradodd.com/lazy
And about the idea that what you write to a public forum remains a discussion about you and your life Joyce once wrote:
The list is about ideas, not about people. Think of ideas like balls and the list like a ball court. If someone tosses an idea worth discussing into the court it's going to get batted about. At that point what's going on is no longer about the person who tossed the idea in. It's about the idea and how well and cleanly it's being tossed about. (Unless the tosser keeps jumping in and grabbing the idea ball saying "Mine!") (there are other ideas like that here: http://sandradodd.com/lists/alwayslearning)
Schuyler
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
You don't need to claim anything or respond to emails here or anywhere that aren't helpful.
There are so many choices that it can be difficult to find just the right fit for your family.
I applaud you for plowing through all of them and figuring out what works for you.
Nance
There are so many choices that it can be difficult to find just the right fit for your family.
I applaud you for plowing through all of them and figuring out what works for you.
Nance
--- In [email protected], KaitKalKenz3@... wrote:
>
> I didn't mean to start a debate. I also never claimed to be homeschooling my children when I said that they attended online school.
Joyce Fetteroll
On Aug 11, 2009, at 9:48 AM, KaitKalKenz3@... wrote:
and helping them turn around to see a situation from a point of view
they didn't even know existed.
In 14 years I haven't successfully helped anyone see that some come
to lists for support and some come for information. And that the two
needs are pretty much incompatible. Those who come for support see
the information as mean and reprimanding. Those who come for
information see the support as meaningless soothing words that tamp
down worried feathers but don't help them do something better. Trying
to bridge that gap in understanding is both frustrating and
fascinating at the same time. ;-) Maybe because I'm trying to give
information to those who want to feel understood!
*This* list is primarily for information. That's its reason for
being. That's what Ren and Kelly liked about the lists they were on
and that's what they designed this list around. Information lists
tend to retain those who love information and those who come for
support drift away (or storm off because they think everyone is
mean!) So lists tend to become more and more the way they are.
Were I a newbie using teach and learn interchangeably I'd *want* to
know there's a strong belief that seeing the differences between the
two words will help me think about unschooling clearer and help me
put it into practice. (And I get to turn the ideas over and think
about them in lots of different ways, not just accept them!) That's
what I like about informational lists. When starting out I didn't
need support. I needed was information on how to do it, help on
cleaning out the old ways of looking at things, help on building a
new approach, help on clarifying new ideas.
For some people, unschooling is intuitive. Maybe the information
doesn't help them. Maybe they feel what's right and the words get in
the way and the explanations feel like criticisms.
But, whatever it is they need, this list is for people who want
information. That's why people should try several lists to find one
with the flavor they like. Being irritated that an informational list
isn't offering support is like being irritated that a vegan gathering
isn't offering meat.
It's really really hard to keep a support list going, though. It
seems like a great idea for unschoolers to get together and trade the
great things going on and cheer others successes. But what they lack
is that passionate driving force that makes people want to set aside
time in their day to spend an hour answering questions or reading.
Soothing and cheering wouldn't have driven me out of bed at 4:30
every morning for the past 14 years ;-) But answering people's
questions, helping those who want advice and information as they
struggle to change themselves, that gets me up :-)
There might be a need and a desire for support, but, except in rare
cases, there isn't enough to fuel the writers that keeps a list
going. After the "Cool!" factor of finding a bunch of like minded
people gathered together, there isn't enough to make returning worth
the time.
Joyce
> Example being, when in one group, someone said they were taught toI love getting into people's heads, seeing from their point of view
> read at age 4, for example, and someone else replied with you
> weren't "taught" to read, you "learned" to read all on your own.
and helping them turn around to see a situation from a point of view
they didn't even know existed.
In 14 years I haven't successfully helped anyone see that some come
to lists for support and some come for information. And that the two
needs are pretty much incompatible. Those who come for support see
the information as mean and reprimanding. Those who come for
information see the support as meaningless soothing words that tamp
down worried feathers but don't help them do something better. Trying
to bridge that gap in understanding is both frustrating and
fascinating at the same time. ;-) Maybe because I'm trying to give
information to those who want to feel understood!
*This* list is primarily for information. That's its reason for
being. That's what Ren and Kelly liked about the lists they were on
and that's what they designed this list around. Information lists
tend to retain those who love information and those who come for
support drift away (or storm off because they think everyone is
mean!) So lists tend to become more and more the way they are.
Were I a newbie using teach and learn interchangeably I'd *want* to
know there's a strong belief that seeing the differences between the
two words will help me think about unschooling clearer and help me
put it into practice. (And I get to turn the ideas over and think
about them in lots of different ways, not just accept them!) That's
what I like about informational lists. When starting out I didn't
need support. I needed was information on how to do it, help on
cleaning out the old ways of looking at things, help on building a
new approach, help on clarifying new ideas.
For some people, unschooling is intuitive. Maybe the information
doesn't help them. Maybe they feel what's right and the words get in
the way and the explanations feel like criticisms.
But, whatever it is they need, this list is for people who want
information. That's why people should try several lists to find one
with the flavor they like. Being irritated that an informational list
isn't offering support is like being irritated that a vegan gathering
isn't offering meat.
It's really really hard to keep a support list going, though. It
seems like a great idea for unschoolers to get together and trade the
great things going on and cheer others successes. But what they lack
is that passionate driving force that makes people want to set aside
time in their day to spend an hour answering questions or reading.
Soothing and cheering wouldn't have driven me out of bed at 4:30
every morning for the past 14 years ;-) But answering people's
questions, helping those who want advice and information as they
struggle to change themselves, that gets me up :-)
There might be a need and a desire for support, but, except in rare
cases, there isn't enough to fuel the writers that keeps a list
going. After the "Cool!" factor of finding a bunch of like minded
people gathered together, there isn't enough to make returning worth
the time.
Joyce
Joyce Fetteroll
On Aug 11, 2009, at 11:14 AM, KaitKalKenz3@... wrote:
cult that seemed dangerous and cut off from reality was best for them?
What you can do though is understand why they are worried.
Unschooling sounds nuts to those who are certain kids need to be
taught. Until they want to let go of that idea, the harder you try to
pull it from them, the tighter they will cling to it and the more
they'll shut their minds to something new.
You can offer them books and print off information for them to read.
Give them a big stack and say you'd love to discuss it once they're
up to speed.
way. The range of employers is as broad as the range of people. There
will be some jobs -- mostly corporate -- closed off to those without
a degree. There are jobs closed off to those with a degree! But there
are lots of people with small businesses willing to hire eager workers.
(I worked for a small (100 person) company and someone with a Harvard
degree applied for work in the finance department. The manager was
dazzled. The rest of us could see the work was not Harvard level
challenging and she just wanted the experience and would be gone in a
year. (Or just wanted the experience interviewing! ;-) I remember a
few decades ago the "brain glut" when there were too many
overqualified people and they wouldn't get hired for jobs they had
too much education for.)
But unschooling does *NOT* get in the way of someone going onto
college! The unschoolers who want to go onto college, do so. (My
daughter took some college classes starting at 14 with no problems.)
But unlike schooled kids, they see it as one way to pursue their
interests rather than as 4 more years of hoops to jump through to get
some job with a good salary.
unschooler perspective. Very few were raised as unschoolers!
But I don't think it's fair to expect to find support *on an
unschooling list* for ideas outside of unschooling. This is a place
to find what it's like to be an unschooler and help on putting
unschooling into practice. It's not a support list for anyone who
happens along. Everyone is welcome who wants to come here to find out
more about unschooling, but it's unreasonable to expect anything
beyond "Welcome! Glad you want to find out more." Just as a vegan
meeting might be supportive of an omnivore who came to find out more,
the meeting needs to focus on the needs of those who came for the
vegan information or risk losing the audience it's targeting.
There's loads of support here for someone's *need* to find out more
about unschooling, even if they only go part way. There isn't support
for people going part way, if you see the difference. Supporting part
way would interfere with the needs of the intended audience of the list.
I own a local homeschooling list -- just because no one else stepped
up when the owners drifted away and forgot they owned the list ;-) On
that list I'm very careful how I talk about unschooling. I don't push
the ideas on anyone, but do offer information about learning that
just isn't readily available. (Like putting out the information that
unschooled children learn to read without being taught because the
only other information people have is from schools who have no clue
that kids don't need taught. But I reassure people I'm not telling
them how to go about teaching reading. Only offering extra
information not readily available about learning to read so they
don't have to stress and obsess over finding the exact right program.)
list are being held up to an unschooling light. That's the purpose of
this list. Unless you want to see what a particular idea looks like
when turned over in the heads of unschoolers, it's best not to put
them on the list.
Joyce
> I just wanted to know what information I could give them to makeIt's really best not to try. How could they convince you that a weird
> them understand that this is what is best for my kids.
cult that seemed dangerous and cut off from reality was best for them?
What you can do though is understand why they are worried.
Unschooling sounds nuts to those who are certain kids need to be
taught. Until they want to let go of that idea, the harder you try to
pull it from them, the tighter they will cling to it and the more
they'll shut their minds to something new.
You can offer them books and print off information for them to read.
Give them a big stack and say you'd love to discuss it once they're
up to speed.
> Society wants to see the diploma, the degree, or the certification.It won't help ease your fears to see all employers in this monolithic
>
way. The range of employers is as broad as the range of people. There
will be some jobs -- mostly corporate -- closed off to those without
a degree. There are jobs closed off to those with a degree! But there
are lots of people with small businesses willing to hire eager workers.
(I worked for a small (100 person) company and someone with a Harvard
degree applied for work in the finance department. The manager was
dazzled. The rest of us could see the work was not Harvard level
challenging and she just wanted the experience and would be gone in a
year. (Or just wanted the experience interviewing! ;-) I remember a
few decades ago the "brain glut" when there were too many
overqualified people and they wouldn't get hired for jobs they had
too much education for.)
But unschooling does *NOT* get in the way of someone going onto
college! The unschoolers who want to go onto college, do so. (My
daughter took some college classes starting at 14 with no problems.)
But unlike schooled kids, they see it as one way to pursue their
interests rather than as 4 more years of hoops to jump through to get
some job with a good salary.
> that a lot of unschooling parents only see things from theirIt's pretty safe to say that all unschoolers have both schooling and
> perspective.
>
unschooler perspective. Very few were raised as unschoolers!
But I don't think it's fair to expect to find support *on an
unschooling list* for ideas outside of unschooling. This is a place
to find what it's like to be an unschooler and help on putting
unschooling into practice. It's not a support list for anyone who
happens along. Everyone is welcome who wants to come here to find out
more about unschooling, but it's unreasonable to expect anything
beyond "Welcome! Glad you want to find out more." Just as a vegan
meeting might be supportive of an omnivore who came to find out more,
the meeting needs to focus on the needs of those who came for the
vegan information or risk losing the audience it's targeting.
There's loads of support here for someone's *need* to find out more
about unschooling, even if they only go part way. There isn't support
for people going part way, if you see the difference. Supporting part
way would interfere with the needs of the intended audience of the list.
I own a local homeschooling list -- just because no one else stepped
up when the owners drifted away and forgot they owned the list ;-) On
that list I'm very careful how I talk about unschooling. I don't push
the ideas on anyone, but do offer information about learning that
just isn't readily available. (Like putting out the information that
unschooled children learn to read without being taught because the
only other information people have is from schools who have no clue
that kids don't need taught. But I reassure people I'm not telling
them how to go about teaching reading. Only offering extra
information not readily available about learning to read so they
don't have to stress and obsess over finding the exact right program.)
> And although I appreciate that perspective seeing as I want to knowNo one is knocking you personally. The ideas you're putting on the
> why I should unschool, I also don't like being knocked for things
> that I may or may not agree with.
>
list are being held up to an unschooling light. That's the purpose of
this list. Unless you want to see what a particular idea looks like
when turned over in the heads of unschoolers, it's best not to put
them on the list.
Joyce
JJ Ross
On the nose, thanks Ren. (and sorry I affronted Faith in the process, who had no clue about all this. I should have added that I appreciated her other responses to what was, yes, a very long OP!)
JJ
JJ
--- In [email protected], "Ren Allen" <starsuncloud@...> wrote:
>
> I'm jumping in because I see what may be a misunderstanding developing. Not all Cyber schools are public school curriculum done at home. Not at all. What JJ is referring to (I believe...correct me if I'm wrong) is the very divisive document that the Hegeners were very supportive of, saying that if anyone used ANY cyber school or public school funds of ANY kind, they were not homeschoolers. It was a poorly worded document and caused a lot of irritation and grief.
>
> I just figured a lot of folks may not know about some of the divisiveness that has sprung up around this issue and not realize how people want to turn this into a black and white when it's very grey.
>
>
>
Sharon
I just spent two weeks with family which ended with my brother, who is a very opinionated physician, asking me about the future of my children, how they are learning, and how I am "teaching" them. It left me questioning and doubting myself and our RU life style. This thread has been so helpful to me and letting go of those fears and doubts. Suddenly I feel more at peace and happy about cleaning and doing laundry. I realize that I can get so bogged down with fear and worry. Pooh on that!
Hugs,
Sharon
Hugs,
Sharon
Nina
Hi list--Joyce made the comment below in a response to a different post. Can anyone expand on the ref to "info not readily available about learning to read"? I am very curious.
I've never posted before. I'm a brand new lurker. And I'm having a great time reading all these new ideas. Thanks for writing them.
Thanks, Nina
---
Joyce wrote:
But I reassure people I'm not telling
I've never posted before. I'm a brand new lurker. And I'm having a great time reading all these new ideas. Thanks for writing them.
Thanks, Nina
---
Joyce wrote:
But I reassure people I'm not telling
> them how to go about teaching reading. Only offering extra
> information not readily available about learning to read so they
> don't have to stress and obsess over finding the exact right program.)
> Joyce
>
Meredith
--- In [email protected], KaitKalKenz3@... wrote:
Not necessarily or always. People *are* recognized for their abilities in the adult world, and often are more respected for having taken a "road less traveled".
What job do you want? Maybe we can help you brainstorm.
I think you are reading "whatever I wanted" differently than Faith may have intended while writing it. Wanting can be a good source of motivation to find a solution. When I have something - some specific thing - I want, I look for options. There are almost always options!
There's no magic formula to be able to do everything in the whole wide world, but that's not really the point of unschooling. Its not about preparing kids for life, because unschooling kids get to live life right now. They get to make real decisions and have their passions treated seriously right now. In the long term, that sets them up so that when they are adults they already have practice making decisions and following their passions, unlike most of their age-mates, who will spend years (at best) floundering around trying to learn those things.
---Meredith (Mo 7, Ray 15)
> I do understand what you are saying though about who determines what my children need to learn or not learn. I guess that they will learn everything that they need to know all on their own. The problem being that society doesn't always agree with that. Society wants to see the diploma, the degree, or the certification.************************
Not necessarily or always. People *are* recognized for their abilities in the adult world, and often are more respected for having taken a "road less traveled".
>>If I could get whatever job I wanted without having to go to college, I probably would have done it by now. Please tell me how I can do that?*********************
What job do you want? Maybe we can help you brainstorm.
I think you are reading "whatever I wanted" differently than Faith may have intended while writing it. Wanting can be a good source of motivation to find a solution. When I have something - some specific thing - I want, I look for options. There are almost always options!
There's no magic formula to be able to do everything in the whole wide world, but that's not really the point of unschooling. Its not about preparing kids for life, because unschooling kids get to live life right now. They get to make real decisions and have their passions treated seriously right now. In the long term, that sets them up so that when they are adults they already have practice making decisions and following their passions, unlike most of their age-mates, who will spend years (at best) floundering around trying to learn those things.
---Meredith (Mo 7, Ray 15)