Laundry; was consensus
Ren Allen
" I've had comments from others that I'm rescueing
ones, but I think everyone here has heard me tell it before. I'll be
brief.
I was doing laundry one night, at my parents house while we were
visiting Alaska. I was tired and not feeling like doing laundry at
the moment, but we all needed clothes. I started folding some of my
Mums laundry and had one of those lovely paradigm shifts.
It was a bittersweet moment....all that jumbled laundry suddenly
took on a new significance. It represented all of my loved ones and
the fact that they were with me. I realized I might not have the
privilege of caring for my mother and doing her laundry much longer
(she was battling breast cancer at the time).
Now that my mother is gone, I remember that moment. I'd fold her
laundry joyfully every day if it meant having her with me again. I
know laundry is such a pitifully small thing when in light of death.
I don't always remember this lesson, but if I slow down and treat
each moment mindfully, I know that the love we share, the good
memories I help create and all the time we spend together, should
never be marred by dirty laundry.
Relationships are interesting things....you can add to them or take
away, each day, each moment we have choices about this.
I choose to make laundry less important than my relationship with my
children.
I choose joy, even in the mundane tasks.
I choose to remember that messes around me equal love around me.:)
Each toy, each dirty shirt, each dish, a powerful reminder that
their are living beings with me that I love spending my days with.
I thank the stars for these daily reminders.
(yeah, and sometimes at night, I exhaustedly pick up toys and sigh.
Being mindful takes a bit of effort and I'm certainly not perfect)
It's all perspective.
And interestingly enough, my children who are ALWAYS free to choose
whatever food they want, will ask for healthy foods. They listen to
their bodies quite beautifully. My children with no chores will
happily help me when I request it. They'll even do stuff without
being asked, because they ARE truly free.
We have another unshcooling Mum staying here temporarily and she
asked the boys to let her know when they were done in the kitchen so
she could clean up.
A bit later,she realized that the water had been running. She looks
into the kitchen and Trevor and Jared are washing dishes. No one
asked them to, they just knew it was a nice thing to do for this
person.
It comes from within, they have a desire to help because no one is
forcing things on them.
They trust my advice because I try to truly give them ALL
alternative and they know when I say "I think this is best", I'm not
trying to manipulate them, I'm trying to help.
That trust took a long time to build,because I wasn't always like
this. I had to undo a lot of damage in order to build the kind of
trust we talk about here at this list.
Yeah, I'll be a bit coercive if my child is truly in danger. So far
they haven't balked when their bodies need help.
Oh wait, there was one time a Dr. wanted to have a urine sample and
one of my kids refused. We went home and never did get that urine
sample...he's fine. If he'd been in pain, it might have changed his
mind, he wasn't.
Anyhoo, I know the level of respect we talk about here can be
baffling sometimes. That's what the list is for.
I do want to clarify though, you ARE an unschooler if you don't do
school and allow your children to learn through life. These other
issues are an extension of unschooling and the philosophies we hold
dear. But they greatly affect how unschooling unfolds and this list
is here to help people explore this kind of parenting.
I know several of the people here from real life, and they would
never allow their child to truly endanger themselves. I think most
of us would say that psychological trauma is far more toxic than
many other forms of "endangerment" (like teeth problems). My kids
are smart, capable human beings. They will make good choices (with
guidance) for their own lives. Maybe different choices than I'd
make, but I trust that they know themselves. So far, my trust has
been proven right on, over and over and over again. Their trust in
me has grown because of that and we have a very good environment for
true discussion.
Ok, I've gotten off the laundry issue quite a bit! sorry.
But there's been a lot of talk suddenly and all these thoughts are
swirling around in my mind.
Freedom doesn't equal kids eating crappy foods all the time, or
making crappy choices about their health. It's hard to describe just
how it works, but it DOES work. I've seen it in my own family, and
hundreds of others.
Ren
> her. So what would an unschool parent do? It is not fair if I makejobs
> her do things, but it is not fair if I have to do most unpleasant
> either.]"Well....I could tell you a little story about laundry and loved
ones, but I think everyone here has heard me tell it before. I'll be
brief.
I was doing laundry one night, at my parents house while we were
visiting Alaska. I was tired and not feeling like doing laundry at
the moment, but we all needed clothes. I started folding some of my
Mums laundry and had one of those lovely paradigm shifts.
It was a bittersweet moment....all that jumbled laundry suddenly
took on a new significance. It represented all of my loved ones and
the fact that they were with me. I realized I might not have the
privilege of caring for my mother and doing her laundry much longer
(she was battling breast cancer at the time).
Now that my mother is gone, I remember that moment. I'd fold her
laundry joyfully every day if it meant having her with me again. I
know laundry is such a pitifully small thing when in light of death.
I don't always remember this lesson, but if I slow down and treat
each moment mindfully, I know that the love we share, the good
memories I help create and all the time we spend together, should
never be marred by dirty laundry.
Relationships are interesting things....you can add to them or take
away, each day, each moment we have choices about this.
I choose to make laundry less important than my relationship with my
children.
I choose joy, even in the mundane tasks.
I choose to remember that messes around me equal love around me.:)
Each toy, each dirty shirt, each dish, a powerful reminder that
their are living beings with me that I love spending my days with.
I thank the stars for these daily reminders.
(yeah, and sometimes at night, I exhaustedly pick up toys and sigh.
Being mindful takes a bit of effort and I'm certainly not perfect)
It's all perspective.
And interestingly enough, my children who are ALWAYS free to choose
whatever food they want, will ask for healthy foods. They listen to
their bodies quite beautifully. My children with no chores will
happily help me when I request it. They'll even do stuff without
being asked, because they ARE truly free.
We have another unshcooling Mum staying here temporarily and she
asked the boys to let her know when they were done in the kitchen so
she could clean up.
A bit later,she realized that the water had been running. She looks
into the kitchen and Trevor and Jared are washing dishes. No one
asked them to, they just knew it was a nice thing to do for this
person.
It comes from within, they have a desire to help because no one is
forcing things on them.
They trust my advice because I try to truly give them ALL
alternative and they know when I say "I think this is best", I'm not
trying to manipulate them, I'm trying to help.
That trust took a long time to build,because I wasn't always like
this. I had to undo a lot of damage in order to build the kind of
trust we talk about here at this list.
Yeah, I'll be a bit coercive if my child is truly in danger. So far
they haven't balked when their bodies need help.
Oh wait, there was one time a Dr. wanted to have a urine sample and
one of my kids refused. We went home and never did get that urine
sample...he's fine. If he'd been in pain, it might have changed his
mind, he wasn't.
Anyhoo, I know the level of respect we talk about here can be
baffling sometimes. That's what the list is for.
I do want to clarify though, you ARE an unschooler if you don't do
school and allow your children to learn through life. These other
issues are an extension of unschooling and the philosophies we hold
dear. But they greatly affect how unschooling unfolds and this list
is here to help people explore this kind of parenting.
I know several of the people here from real life, and they would
never allow their child to truly endanger themselves. I think most
of us would say that psychological trauma is far more toxic than
many other forms of "endangerment" (like teeth problems). My kids
are smart, capable human beings. They will make good choices (with
guidance) for their own lives. Maybe different choices than I'd
make, but I trust that they know themselves. So far, my trust has
been proven right on, over and over and over again. Their trust in
me has grown because of that and we have a very good environment for
true discussion.
Ok, I've gotten off the laundry issue quite a bit! sorry.
But there's been a lot of talk suddenly and all these thoughts are
swirling around in my mind.
Freedom doesn't equal kids eating crappy foods all the time, or
making crappy choices about their health. It's hard to describe just
how it works, but it DOES work. I've seen it in my own family, and
hundreds of others.
Ren
Shauna Byrd
I've never posted to this list before, as I am just learning about
unschooling and have just been absorbing from all of you.
However Ren, I have to say, Thank you! I needed to read this. It
parallel's some of my own thoughts as of late, and it was nice to see it
reflected back to me from someone else.
Mama to Carson and Ashlyn
unschooling and have just been absorbing from all of you.
However Ren, I have to say, Thank you! I needed to read this. It
parallel's some of my own thoughts as of late, and it was nice to see it
reflected back to me from someone else.
>It's all perspective.Shauna
>And interestingly enough, my children who are ALWAYS free to choose
>whatever food they want, will ask for healthy foods. They listen to
>their bodies quite beautifully. My children with no chores will
>happily help me when I request it. They'll even do stuff without
>being asked, because they ARE truly free.
>We have another unshcooling Mum staying here temporarily and she
>asked the boys to let her know when they were done in the kitchen so
>she could clean up.
>A bit later,she realized that the water had been running. She looks
>into the kitchen and Trevor and Jared are washing dishes. No one
>asked them to, they just knew it was a nice thing to do for this
>person.
>It comes from within, they have a desire to help because no one is
>forcing things on them.
>They trust my advice because I try to truly give them ALL
>alternative and they know when I say "I think this is best", I'm not
>trying to manipulate them, I'm trying to help.
>That trust took a long time to build,because I wasn't always like
>this. I had to undo a lot of damage in order to build the kind of
>trust we talk about here at this list.
>Ren
Mama to Carson and Ashlyn
TreeGoddess
On Nov 22, 2004, at 10:46 AM, Ren Allen wrote:
I've read this a couple of times before, but I think it bears repeating
on a regular basis. I cry every time I've read it. I'm again thankful
for every little dress and shirt and grubby sock piled on my laundry
room floor.
Thank you for sharing this again.
-Tracy-
"Every moment spent in unhappiness is a moment of
happiness lost." -- Leo Buscaglia
> [Now that my mother is gone, I remember that moment. I'd foldRen,
> her laundry joyfully every day if it meant having her with me again.
> I know laundry is such a pitifully small thing when in light of death.]
I've read this a couple of times before, but I think it bears repeating
on a regular basis. I cry every time I've read it. I'm again thankful
for every little dress and shirt and grubby sock piled on my laundry
room floor.
Thank you for sharing this again.
-Tracy-
"Every moment spent in unhappiness is a moment of
happiness lost." -- Leo Buscaglia
[email protected]
In a message dated 11/22/2004 10:53:17 AM Eastern Standard Time,
starsuncloud@... writes:
write about it so clearly. I often read posts like this one from Ren or from
Kelly some days when I don't have time to read an entire thread because they
usually say the things I think but am not to the point where I can put it into
words so eloquently.
All these things like food issues, laundry, taking showers and bedtimes
have sorted themselves out as we have grown into unschooling. It's such an
added bonus that came with allowing my children choices and then supporting them
in the choices they made.
Just wanted to say thanks to Ren and Kelly for this board and the time you
take to share your thoughts and ideas.
Gail
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
starsuncloud@... writes:
> It's hard to describe justYes, it does. And thank you for the parents on this board who are able to
> how it works, but it DOES work.
write about it so clearly. I often read posts like this one from Ren or from
Kelly some days when I don't have time to read an entire thread because they
usually say the things I think but am not to the point where I can put it into
words so eloquently.
All these things like food issues, laundry, taking showers and bedtimes
have sorted themselves out as we have grown into unschooling. It's such an
added bonus that came with allowing my children choices and then supporting them
in the choices they made.
Just wanted to say thanks to Ren and Kelly for this board and the time you
take to share your thoughts and ideas.
Gail
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 11/22/2004 3:11:55 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
gailbrocop@... writes:
Just wanted to say thanks to Ren and Kelly for this board and the time you
take to share your thoughts and ideas. <<<
You're welcome----but thank YOU too, for your contributions!
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
gailbrocop@... writes:
Just wanted to say thanks to Ren and Kelly for this board and the time you
take to share your thoughts and ideas. <<<
You're welcome----but thank YOU too, for your contributions!
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
-----Original Message-----
From: Ren Allen <starsuncloud@...>
this. I had to undo a lot of damage in order to build the kind of
trust we talk about here at this list.<
If you have time, could you talk more about that transition, what it looked like? Did you have a conversation with your kids about your new outlook or did you just jump in and do it?
Michelle B.
From: Ren Allen <starsuncloud@...>
>That trust took a long time to build,because I wasn't always like
this. I had to undo a lot of damage in order to build the kind of
trust we talk about here at this list.<
If you have time, could you talk more about that transition, what it looked like? Did you have a conversation with your kids about your new outlook or did you just jump in and do it?
Michelle B.
Angela White
> I choose to make laundry less important than my relationship with myI've been a bit busy so I'm a bit late on this one. Yes, I agree that
> children.
> I choose joy, even in the mundane tasks.
> I choose to remember that messes around me equal love around me.:)
> Each toy, each dirty shirt, each dish, a powerful reminder that
> their are living beings with me that I love spending my days with.
> I thank the stars for these daily reminders.
> (yeah, and sometimes at night, I exhaustedly pick up toys and sigh.
> Being mindful takes a bit of effort and I'm certainly not perfect)
>
> It's all perspective.
> And interestingly enough, my children who are ALWAYS free to choose
> whatever food they want, will ask for healthy foods. They listen to
>
it isn't worth ruining one's relationship over chores issues, but I
feel there has to be a balance. I'm reading S. Neill's Freedom not
licence at the moment. I agree with S. Neill that children should have
freedom to make choices but that doesn't mean they choose to do nothing
and I have to do all the work for them. I have the same freedom too.
If my dd is on the internet for hours and blocks the phone line my
friends can't get hold of me. That's my freedom to have use of that
phone line gone. When she doesn't help I end up spending my little
spare time doing it for her when I want to have a little 'freedom' time
for me too. When they're babies, I clothes them, but as soon as they're
able to do it themselves, I stop because they tell me to. My 5.5yo dd
loves helping me. She loves cleaning etc, but after a while that wears
off when they get older.
I don't actually mind doing household jobs despite cleaning other
peoples houses for 4 hours a week to finance my 5.5yo dd violin
lessons, I still don't mind doing it. What I mind is when I'm the only
one and loose out on time for my hobbys etc. I feel I have a right too
to a little time for my own interests just like all other members of
the fam. If my dd has a busy time, I help her and do things for her,
just like I do for my dh or my younger dd. But when they're not busy, I
can't see what's wrong with working out a roster so that everyone does
their bit in the running of the household. I don't like going round
telling my dd what to do.She usually does what I ask for but I want
all of us to work out who does what so things get done without me
having to do them or ask people/remind them. My dd agrees with me that
it is only fair that we all do our share. Problem is, that's the
theory. In practice she chooses to spend her time reading or being on
the pc etc rather than doing the bit she has agreed to do. We went
through all the jobs that need doing and talked about who could do
what. She volunteered to do the laundry but in practice she really
isn't able to do it as she's not here in the day to do it. So that left
only the jobs she doesn't like doing. I'm more than happy to do the
jobs she doesn't like if she does something else instead. Trouble is,
she doesn't like doing anything else either. So now we take turns to
do the chores. Every 3rd week it's her turn to do the vacuuming for
example (the other 2 it's me and dh), but she never does it unless I
ask her to. Even then, she says yes but doesn't start. Then she
starts, but leaves out lots of areas (she says she forgets, but she
doesn't want to write herself a list either so she doesn't forget).
When we talked about what other job she'd like to do because she
doesn't like vaccuuming, she couldn't think about anything. I was very
open to brainstorming innovative solutions but she doesn't participate.
So the active listening and win win solutions stuff form the P.E.T.
book by T. Gordon didn't work for that.
The above logic (I choose to remember that messes around me equal love
around me ..)reminds me of the saying : eat up because there's lots of
people starving. Be thankful that you have a child, that's she's
healthy, that they live with you. Yes, I am. Does that mean I forgo my
needs and do everything my kids don't feel like doing?
I have a personal story too. I had a miscarriage and the day after 14
young people died not far from us because a viewing platform collapsed.
I was talking to my midwife and said that I almost felt I had no right
to grieve over my loss as I never knew this child, it was never born,
never lived and I had another chance. Yet here were 14 sets of parents
grieving over the loss of their children. Children they had lived with
for 17 plus years. My midwife said that just because there was other
tragedy in life it didn't mean my loss was less real, was less
justified, was less acute.
Just because I love my dd to bits, am thankful that she is in my life,
that she is healthy and happy doesn't mean I need to do everything for
her, does it?
It is probably premature, but this week I started the food freedom
thing. We had some left over chocolate from making Santa Sleighs with
candy sticks :-) and divided them up. My 5.5.yo dd told me today she
want's to go back to being aloud only some after dinner because she
doesn't like it that she eats them up all at once and then has nothing
left the rest of the days.
I'm not writing all this because I'm convinced that my argument is
right.
That's just how I see it atm but I like to see another view on things.
I would much rather that I give my dc as much freedom as possible, if
it doesn't mean I pick the short straw.....
Am I premature in my expectation that my 14yo dd can take on more of
a share of the household jobs as her freedom in her life also
increases? Can't freedom and responsibility go hand in hand?
I could choose to do the jobs for her, pick up her stuff, put away her
stuff. There would be no conflict, but I know I get resentful, so
that's not really a solution for me. Or I could try and do it all for
her and see if she starts helping me. But in a way that's what I've
been doing all these years although there was my expectation that she
'should' help so maybe that's not the real thing ?
Angela
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Robyn Coburn
<<<But when they're not busy, I
can't see what's wrong with working out a roster so that everyone does
their bit in the running of the household. I don't like going round
telling my dd what to do.>>>>
There's the answer: what is wrong with the roster is that you don't like
having to enforce it. It is bringing conflict and stress into your home and
relationships.
You are so close to letting go, so close to real freedom for your kids. That
actually does include the freedom to do nothing.
It will probably only be after all the requirements are lifted, and all
these sources of conflict are gone, that you will find a miraculously
willing helper in your dd14.
Don't give up now. I'm reading some resentments in your post - your time,
your other interests, lack of appreciation too? Sometimes I feel like my
"stuff" is the last of anyone's priority. I have found that asking for help
from the willing, and usually receiving it, is just so much more harmonious
in the home and emotionally relaxing, than badgering the unwilling.
Robyn L. Coburn
---
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can't see what's wrong with working out a roster so that everyone does
their bit in the running of the household. I don't like going round
telling my dd what to do.>>>>
There's the answer: what is wrong with the roster is that you don't like
having to enforce it. It is bringing conflict and stress into your home and
relationships.
You are so close to letting go, so close to real freedom for your kids. That
actually does include the freedom to do nothing.
It will probably only be after all the requirements are lifted, and all
these sources of conflict are gone, that you will find a miraculously
willing helper in your dd14.
Don't give up now. I'm reading some resentments in your post - your time,
your other interests, lack of appreciation too? Sometimes I feel like my
"stuff" is the last of anyone's priority. I have found that asking for help
from the willing, and usually receiving it, is just so much more harmonious
in the home and emotionally relaxing, than badgering the unwilling.
Robyn L. Coburn
---
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Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
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Angela S
I wish I had more time right now to respond, but I don't. I just wanted to
mention though, that we choose to bring children into this world and we need
to consider that when we start feeling resentful. We can choose to feel joy
instead.
Angela ~ Maine
game-enthusiast@...
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
mention though, that we choose to bring children into this world and we need
to consider that when we start feeling resentful. We can choose to feel joy
instead.
Angela ~ Maine
game-enthusiast@...
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Syndi
> >Hi Angela!wow, you've got alot going on here that I too have gone thru. I'll
try to cover all the bases here!
When we 1st started Unschooling over a year ago, I felt exactly as
you do. Even before that, it was like all I ever do is pick up after
everyone all the time. Clean here clean there, cook, laundry, etc.
But the light at the end of the tunnel came when I was gone one day
and came back home to find that my ds11 was loading the dishwasher
and washing some pans in the sink. He had cleaned the kitchen.
Totally came as a shock to me, but boy was I grateful for his help!
He also cooks for us when the mood strikes, cleans his room ,
sometimes, and loves making cookies and homemade tortillas! And yes,
I do just let him be, not "making" him do anything. If I do need
help, I ask, and since he is so busy all day, I ask in a way that
doesn't interfere with what he and his little brother are doing.
When he is online, I just remind him after so long that someone might
call or I need to use the phone, and when he gets to a stopping place
to please find something else to do. And all the while he is busy on
line, usually with ds6, I have lots of time for me. In fact i've run
into days that I have almost too much time for me! This is really
new, since it wasn't this way till I let go.
> >I cleaned houses before I realized how much my family needed meand I needed them! So I know that if you are like me, you probably
see more dirt then most people! Now everyone else please don't take
that wrong, it seems to come with the territory. So hearing your
daughter doesn't get all the places makes me think of this. I know
at her age I didn't get all my work done perfectly, and took alot of
short cuts to get out of it! So maybe just ease up on her a bit when
she does help, letting her know you appriciate what she has done. And
instead of the roster, just explain that the more help you get from
them the more time you have to play, shop, or whatever it is you all
enjoy doing together! Its not 100% foolproof, we all have our days
when we just don't want to do housework or chores. But I bet if you
give it a try at least things will be more relaxed in the house. In
the meantime, keep reminding yourself that we all see more "messes"
in our own homes then anyone comeing into them.
> Keep in mind also what you felt like at her age! Can you imaginyour mom talking to you like you are an adult and that your feelings
of wanting to or not wanting to do something mattered? I wish my
parents had known about all this.
I don't know if every woman feels this way, but I loved every one
of my babies before birth. I am sorry you lost yours. I don't feel a
miscarriage is any less then the loss of a person that does make it
into the world. I lost one of my boys, my 1st born, at the age of
18. It'll be 4 years in February. And I have to say, that if you
knew what I know now, you probably would do anything and everything
for your dd. Learn to love the mess (on in my case, the very loud
music, the guitar that played non stop ) becuz it can ALL stop in the
blink of an eye. And so now, with his brothers, all those things that
bothered me so much before and things that remind me that they are
here, and healthy, and ohhhh so busy! And even though it gets to me
on days to have to be the one to take care of it all, I just look at
a photo on the wall, smile, and keep picking up their "stuff"
Syndi and sons, Kaleb 11 and Isaiah 6 and our angel Josh, now 23,
playin that sweet sweet music for the Lord now.
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Angela White
>Exactly.
> There's the answer: what is wrong with the roster is that you don't
> like
> having to enforce it. It is bringing conflict and stress into your
> home and
> relationships.
>I have always given most of my time and attention willingly and
> Don't give up now. I'm reading some resentments in your post - your
> time,
> your other interests, lack of appreciation too? Sometimes I feel like
> my
> "stuff" is the last of anyone's priority.
happily. It's probably to do with myself getting older that I now feel
I want to have a little more time to do things for me. But I end up
spending some of that possible time doing house hold chores.
> I have found that asking for helpI haven't found a way of looking at this yet to let go but as my dd
> from the willing, and usually receiving it, is just so much more
> harmonious
> in the home and emotionally relaxing, than badgering the unwilling.
>
isn't doing much anyway, I'm not loosing much in not asking her anymore
:-) So while I still end up doing the work I will have gained on the
lack of conflict.
Small gain? sigh
Angela
Angela White
Thank you Syndi, I am very moved. yes, you are so right. My teenage
time was marred by my mother trying to make me do chores and here I am
repeating it.
And yes, when they're gone, it's all so trivial. Thank you for sharing,
I'm having tears in eyes now. It'll help me makes the shift in my
thinking. After all I do most things contrary to what the 'normal'
people do, I might as well give up on the chores stuff too :-)
Have run out of time on my pc now and sign off (dd waiting ...)
Warmly,
Angela
time was marred by my mother trying to make me do chores and here I am
repeating it.
And yes, when they're gone, it's all so trivial. Thank you for sharing,
I'm having tears in eyes now. It'll help me makes the shift in my
thinking. After all I do most things contrary to what the 'normal'
people do, I might as well give up on the chores stuff too :-)
Have run out of time on my pc now and sign off (dd waiting ...)
Warmly,
Angela
On 27/11/2004, at 1:26 PM, Syndi wrote:
Fetteroll
on 11/26/04 7:45 PM, Angela White at wordshop@... wrote:
her.
And if you use this opportunity to *build* on your relationship, the gains
will be immeasurable :-)
Joyce
> So while I still end up doing the work I will have gained on theNo *huge* gain because you won't be whittling away at your relationship with
> lack of conflict.
> Small gain? sigh
her.
And if you use this opportunity to *build* on your relationship, the gains
will be immeasurable :-)
Joyce