How to respond to sister/teacher
Brent & Rae
I want to preface this by explaining that I have four children, ages 11, 9, 3 and 8 months. My 11 year old homeschooled for about a year and desperately wanted back into the public school system and so that's where he remains. My 9 year old has always been in public school but after years and years of reading about unschooling and natural learning, I think I am finally read to takd the plunge and both of us are really excited. (And I hope to God that my younger children will never have to set foot in a public school.)
Anyway, during an IM chat with my sister, who is a 3rd grade public school teacher, I mentioned to her that Tristan would not be returning to school this next year. She said (exact words): "He will be so far behind that if he ever wants to go to college he won't be able to. He will need some sort of formal education, whether that be public or private school."
Luckily, something came up and she had to sign offline so I didn't need to respond right then, but I know this will come up again. I've heard plenty of stories of children who were homeschooled or unschooled who did amazingly well in college and *I* believe that if he chooses to go on to a higher education, he'll be fine, but it's trying to explain that to well meaning family members and friends that worries me.
Anyway, during an IM chat with my sister, who is a 3rd grade public school teacher, I mentioned to her that Tristan would not be returning to school this next year. She said (exact words): "He will be so far behind that if he ever wants to go to college he won't be able to. He will need some sort of formal education, whether that be public or private school."
Luckily, something came up and she had to sign offline so I didn't need to respond right then, but I know this will come up again. I've heard plenty of stories of children who were homeschooled or unschooled who did amazingly well in college and *I* believe that if he chooses to go on to a higher education, he'll be fine, but it's trying to explain that to well meaning family members and friends that worries me.
Annora Guidry
I too am glad that I came to my senses before my two younger children will be subjected to school. I have been bracing myself for the unwanted questions and advice as we embark on this journey and have come to the conclusion that I will compile a list of media that can do the talking for me and refuse to have the conversation. I will gladly discuss my theories with perfect strangers, in fact my best friend and I are planning on starting a public blog, but I'd rather not experience the range of emotions that will emerge if my mother-in-law or anyone else in my family forces me to feel that I have to defend my parenting style. Good Luck.
--- On Sat, 7/18/09, Brent & Rae <rachaelreese@...> wrote:
From: Brent & Rae <rachaelreese@...>
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] How to respond to sister/teacher
To: [email protected]
Date: Saturday, July 18, 2009, 10:58 AM
I want to preface this by explaining that I have four children, ages 11, 9, 3 and 8 months. My 11 year old homeschooled for about a year and desperately wanted back into the public school system and so that's where he remains. My 9 year old has always been in public school but after years and years of reading about unschooling and natural learning, I think I am finally read to takd the plunge and both of us are really excited. (And I hope to God that my younger children will never have to set foot in a public school.)
Anyway, during an IM chat with my sister, who is a 3rd grade public school teacher, I mentioned to her that Tristan would not be returning to school this next year. She said (exact words): "He will be so far behind that if he ever wants to go to college he won't be able to. He will need some sort of formal education, whether that be public or private school."
Luckily, something came up and she had to sign offline so I didn't need to respond right then, but I know this will come up again. I've heard plenty of stories of children who were homeschooled or unschooled who did amazingly well in college and *I* believe that if he chooses to go on to a higher education, he'll be fine, but it's trying to explain that to well meaning family members and friends that worries me.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Schuyler
Anyway, during an IM chat with my sister, who is a 3rd grade public
school teacher, I mentioned to her that Tristan would not be returning
to school this next year. She said (exact words): "He will be so far
behind that if he ever wants to go to college he won't be able to. He
will need some sort of formal education, whether that be public or
private school."
Luckily, something came up and she had to sign
offline so I didn't need to respond right then, but I know this will
come up again. I've heard plenty of stories of children who were
homeschooled or unschooled who did amazingly well in college and *I*
believe that if he chooses to go on to a higher education, he'll be
fine, but it's trying to explain that to well meaning family members
and friends that worries me.
----------------------------------------------
You could say that right now you feel he needs to be home, but that you can always put him back in school when he feels the need to be there, or something along those lines. Sometimes it is easier to just not bring it up. Talk about other things and don't initiate conversations about your unschooling or parenting choices. If she brings it up keep it relatively neutral and calm and do what you can to not feel like you are on the defensive about your family's choices. And change the subject. Move on to talking about other things. You don't have to do it abruptly, answer whatever question was asked and then ask something back that is on a new topic.
It's hard to know that you won't have the support of friends and family when you feel the need for support. They won't be the people to turn to when things get hard or frustrating. They'll be more likely to say I told you so than to say well, if you look at it this way, or maybe you are just having a hard time seeing all these amazing things. And with that in mind you have to move away from leaning on them for engaging and supportive conversations about unschooling.
Schuyler
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
school teacher, I mentioned to her that Tristan would not be returning
to school this next year. She said (exact words): "He will be so far
behind that if he ever wants to go to college he won't be able to. He
will need some sort of formal education, whether that be public or
private school."
Luckily, something came up and she had to sign
offline so I didn't need to respond right then, but I know this will
come up again. I've heard plenty of stories of children who were
homeschooled or unschooled who did amazingly well in college and *I*
believe that if he chooses to go on to a higher education, he'll be
fine, but it's trying to explain that to well meaning family members
and friends that worries me.
----------------------------------------------
You could say that right now you feel he needs to be home, but that you can always put him back in school when he feels the need to be there, or something along those lines. Sometimes it is easier to just not bring it up. Talk about other things and don't initiate conversations about your unschooling or parenting choices. If she brings it up keep it relatively neutral and calm and do what you can to not feel like you are on the defensive about your family's choices. And change the subject. Move on to talking about other things. You don't have to do it abruptly, answer whatever question was asked and then ask something back that is on a new topic.
It's hard to know that you won't have the support of friends and family when you feel the need for support. They won't be the people to turn to when things get hard or frustrating. They'll be more likely to say I told you so than to say well, if you look at it this way, or maybe you are just having a hard time seeing all these amazing things. And with that in mind you have to move away from leaning on them for engaging and supportive conversations about unschooling.
Schuyler
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce Fetteroll
On Jul 18, 2009, at 11:58 AM, Brent & Rae wrote:
Groove that might help you find an inner calmness about being
questioned:
questions are because they care and because they're scared. What
you're doing flies in the face of their understanding of how the
world works so the fact that you're considering it suggests you're
out of touch with reality! It's like you're saying "I'll be jumping
off the cliff with my son because I believe I can fly." ;-)
Sandra Dodd has used "If this stops working, we'll try something else."
That won't satisfy your sister, though! She's going to think you're
digging a deeper and deeper hole that will be hard to get out of. So
you can say that while what she says makes sense -- which it does! --
that you've been doing a lot of reading and know from real life
unschoolers that it take very little time for unschooled kids to
catch up when they try school. And then give her some resources to
read and tell her you'd be happy to discuss it once she's done her
homework and is up to speed with where you are ;-)
http://sandradodd.com/unschooling
http://joyfulllyrejoycing.com
Those two site have so much to read that it will take her years ;-)
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> *I* believe that if he chooses to go on to a higher education,Here's something that Scott Noelle sent out recently in his Daily
> he'll be fine, but it's trying to explain that to well meaning
> family members and friends that worries me.
Groove that might help you find an inner calmness about being
questioned:
> :: Don't Explain ::I think it's helpful to see from your relatives' point of view. Their
>
> Being on the leading edge of parenting, you may
> find yourself explaining to others *why* you parent
> the way you do.
>
> This can be a good thing when someone has
> expressed curiosity about it and you're simply
> sharing information. But it's better *not* to explain
> yourself if you're trying to *justify* your choices.
>
> Justifying gives away your power. It implies that
> you need the other person's approval. It undermines
> your self-confidence and distances you from your
> Inner Guidance.
>
> The "need" to explain and justify your choices is
> based on the "need" to be right. But if your parenting
> choices are "right," and the other person would parent
> differently, then s/he must be "wrong." Once you get
> in that right/wrong mode, conflict or interpersonal
> tension is inevitable.
>
> Instead of explaining your parenting to others,
> silently remind *yourself* that your choices are right
> *for you*, and your own approval is all you need.
>
> http://www.dailygroove.net/dont-explain
questions are because they care and because they're scared. What
you're doing flies in the face of their understanding of how the
world works so the fact that you're considering it suggests you're
out of touch with reality! It's like you're saying "I'll be jumping
off the cliff with my son because I believe I can fly." ;-)
Sandra Dodd has used "If this stops working, we'll try something else."
That won't satisfy your sister, though! She's going to think you're
digging a deeper and deeper hole that will be hard to get out of. So
you can say that while what she says makes sense -- which it does! --
that you've been doing a lot of reading and know from real life
unschoolers that it take very little time for unschooled kids to
catch up when they try school. And then give her some resources to
read and tell her you'd be happy to discuss it once she's done her
homework and is up to speed with where you are ;-)
http://sandradodd.com/unschooling
http://joyfulllyrejoycing.com
Those two site have so much to read that it will take her years ;-)
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Ren Allen
~~She said (exact words): "He will be so far
behind that if he ever wants to go to college he won't be able to. He
will need some sort of formal education, whether that be public or
private school."~~
My son should need 13 years to "catch up" then!! ;) He's going to college this fall after being unschooled for most of his life (went to kindergarten and endured a few years of eclectic homeschooling).
His fiance is starting her third year of college this fall, after being unschooled most of her life too. Almost straight A's. Not that it matters but it proves you don't need to endure years and years of formal education to do well at formal education!
I think most adult brains are more wired to be ready for that kind of information, should they desire it. What a waste of time school is for all those children who are simply enduring.
Ren
radicalunschooling.blogspot.com
behind that if he ever wants to go to college he won't be able to. He
will need some sort of formal education, whether that be public or
private school."~~
My son should need 13 years to "catch up" then!! ;) He's going to college this fall after being unschooled for most of his life (went to kindergarten and endured a few years of eclectic homeschooling).
His fiance is starting her third year of college this fall, after being unschooled most of her life too. Almost straight A's. Not that it matters but it proves you don't need to endure years and years of formal education to do well at formal education!
I think most adult brains are more wired to be ready for that kind of information, should they desire it. What a waste of time school is for all those children who are simply enduring.
Ren
radicalunschooling.blogspot.com
Alice Roddy
Joyce wrote:
For example, once when asked about curriculum, I responded by saying that I could drop materials that weren't working and switch to those that do. And that I felt sorry that teachers had to use what the district provided. That went over well with the other grandmother who had been a math teacher and liked the idea that I thought teachers should be able to choose the books they wanted to work from. (On one of the ed blogs I read, a math teacher was crying because they took away Saxon and were substituting books he does not believe in. If his students don't do well, he will be blamed as a poor teacher. Take away his tools, give him shoddy substitutes, and blame him for the poor outcome!)
In your case, if your teaching sister brings up preparation for college again, you might start talking about how many students start college poorly prepared, how all colleges, even the most elite, have remedial classes, and what a burden it is for people to pay college tuition for what was already bought and and paid for on the high school level.
HTH,
Homeschooling Granny
Nursing is the biological norm for mothers and babies. It is a relationship that links the baby's immune system to the mother's, provides the baby with stimulation and connection while providing the mother with stress reducing hormones. It even feeds the baby.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> I think it's helpful to see from your relatives' point of view.When I'm with the pro-school members of the family I take care not to criticize schools because that would put them on the defensive. I just don't talk about things that will start a fight. I switch the conversation to things that we can agree on.
For example, once when asked about curriculum, I responded by saying that I could drop materials that weren't working and switch to those that do. And that I felt sorry that teachers had to use what the district provided. That went over well with the other grandmother who had been a math teacher and liked the idea that I thought teachers should be able to choose the books they wanted to work from. (On one of the ed blogs I read, a math teacher was crying because they took away Saxon and were substituting books he does not believe in. If his students don't do well, he will be blamed as a poor teacher. Take away his tools, give him shoddy substitutes, and blame him for the poor outcome!)
In your case, if your teaching sister brings up preparation for college again, you might start talking about how many students start college poorly prepared, how all colleges, even the most elite, have remedial classes, and what a burden it is for people to pay college tuition for what was already bought and and paid for on the high school level.
HTH,
Homeschooling Granny
Nursing is the biological norm for mothers and babies. It is a relationship that links the baby's immune system to the mother's, provides the baby with stimulation and connection while providing the mother with stress reducing hormones. It even feeds the baby.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
Do you remember when you were pregnant? Didn't everyone have advice about what you should be doing? And then when the babies were born? Everyone knew just how to raise them. And what to do when they fussed or what you should feed them or how they should be dressed.
This is that sort of advice, imo. Offered whether you asked or not. Well-meaning but completely disconnected from your actual child. And, after a while, you learn to filter -- nodding and smiling and then proceeding to do what you know is best for you and yours.
And, to top that off, your sister is a ps teacher. What has she spent the past years learning about? How valuable what she does for a living, and no doubt works hard at and is underpaid for, is for all children.
It's easy to see how she thinks every child should have the benefit of the system she believes in. Heck, my husband installs tile and marble -- I think everyone should have tile floors. :) Now, translate that to something really important, her love of your children as their aunt, and imagine how strange and insulting it is to her to reject everything she believes in.
What to say though? Read online about the many success stories of kids who have gone on to have brilliant college or business careers. Yes, that's part of the story. But not the point. The point is the happiness and well-being of your actual children.
My son went to ps briefly. He lasted for 7 months of Kindergarten. The problem? He could already read and he was trying to be good but he was really, really bored. And they never taught him anything new. That was his big complaint when I finally asked why he seemed so sad. A sad 6-year-old? My 6-year-old? Sad? Break my heart! Well, he was out of there pretty swiftly but not as a rejection of the ps system for everyone. Just that it didn't fit him.
This grew into DD staying home and now we have been home for over 10 years. But DD has decided she wants to return to ps for high school.
So we are doing what fits our particular children. Using the ps system when it works and rejecting it when it doesn't.
It doesn't have to be a big battle about the system with your sister. And it doesn't have to be about some hypothetical teen. This is about your actual child. And his needs now and as they change.
And like the other decisions you have made for your babies, you don't need your sister's permission or agreement. And if it turns out that she can't see that the best path for your son is to homeschool, there are other things to discuss. You could ask her how things are going in school now that her funding has been cut (the typical school story around here).
Nance
This is that sort of advice, imo. Offered whether you asked or not. Well-meaning but completely disconnected from your actual child. And, after a while, you learn to filter -- nodding and smiling and then proceeding to do what you know is best for you and yours.
And, to top that off, your sister is a ps teacher. What has she spent the past years learning about? How valuable what she does for a living, and no doubt works hard at and is underpaid for, is for all children.
It's easy to see how she thinks every child should have the benefit of the system she believes in. Heck, my husband installs tile and marble -- I think everyone should have tile floors. :) Now, translate that to something really important, her love of your children as their aunt, and imagine how strange and insulting it is to her to reject everything she believes in.
What to say though? Read online about the many success stories of kids who have gone on to have brilliant college or business careers. Yes, that's part of the story. But not the point. The point is the happiness and well-being of your actual children.
My son went to ps briefly. He lasted for 7 months of Kindergarten. The problem? He could already read and he was trying to be good but he was really, really bored. And they never taught him anything new. That was his big complaint when I finally asked why he seemed so sad. A sad 6-year-old? My 6-year-old? Sad? Break my heart! Well, he was out of there pretty swiftly but not as a rejection of the ps system for everyone. Just that it didn't fit him.
This grew into DD staying home and now we have been home for over 10 years. But DD has decided she wants to return to ps for high school.
So we are doing what fits our particular children. Using the ps system when it works and rejecting it when it doesn't.
It doesn't have to be a big battle about the system with your sister. And it doesn't have to be about some hypothetical teen. This is about your actual child. And his needs now and as they change.
And like the other decisions you have made for your babies, you don't need your sister's permission or agreement. And if it turns out that she can't see that the best path for your son is to homeschool, there are other things to discuss. You could ask her how things are going in school now that her funding has been cut (the typical school story around here).
Nance
>
> Anyway, during an IM chat with my sister, who is a 3rd grade public school teacher, I mentioned to her that Tristan would not be returning to school this next year. She said (exact words): "He will be so far behind that if he ever wants to go to college he won't be able to. He will need some sort of formal education, whether that be public or private school."
>
>
JRossedd
Schuyler's advice is what worked for us, too. I would just say "for now"
or "for the time being" when someone well-meaning would ask about or try
to judge our unschooling. It worked from kindergarten age right through
to Favorite Daughter's present as university scholarship junior at age
19, backpacking around Europe. Every year I'd be asked, "So do you
think she'll go to school next year then?" And I'd say "we'll see" or
quote the recurring line from Shakespeare in Love when asked how things
would work out: "I don't know, it's a mystery!"
And it really was a mystery. I had confidence we'd be fine whatever came
along, but couldn't predict how, and have often been surprised. So
think about it: if YOU can't predict it, how can relatives or neighbors
or teachers or anyone, however well-meaning? When your unschooling kids
are little, learning not to fear nor force the future might be the most
important kind of learning, for both parent and child. :)
Not that our unschooling mystery will predict how yours will turn out
but I was quite right to believe it would turn out well: with no
schooling, not even any parental planning or pushing, no formal study in
any high school "subjects" (plus a latent disorder/disability in math
coding, as it turned out) she HAS learned everything she needs and
wants, to be where she wants to be, doing what she wants to do and
charting her own wide-open future. When she got to college, it turned
out that English, theatre and film professors were excited to get their
hands on someone who hadn't been schooled and tested into comformity.
Here's a sample from when she was 16, about what kids learn from their
parents and other adults whether they are schooled or not:
http://misedjj.wordpress.com/2006/10/24/i-cant-hear-you-lalalala/
Meanwhile she grappled with the math and science she'd never studied,
and came through in her own ways that I'd never have predicted, and
feels good about it now.
So here's my advice to add to Schuyler's. It will all work out.
How?
It's a mystery!
JJ
Older, wiser and more sanguine than she used to be . . .
or "for the time being" when someone well-meaning would ask about or try
to judge our unschooling. It worked from kindergarten age right through
to Favorite Daughter's present as university scholarship junior at age
19, backpacking around Europe. Every year I'd be asked, "So do you
think she'll go to school next year then?" And I'd say "we'll see" or
quote the recurring line from Shakespeare in Love when asked how things
would work out: "I don't know, it's a mystery!"
And it really was a mystery. I had confidence we'd be fine whatever came
along, but couldn't predict how, and have often been surprised. So
think about it: if YOU can't predict it, how can relatives or neighbors
or teachers or anyone, however well-meaning? When your unschooling kids
are little, learning not to fear nor force the future might be the most
important kind of learning, for both parent and child. :)
Not that our unschooling mystery will predict how yours will turn out
but I was quite right to believe it would turn out well: with no
schooling, not even any parental planning or pushing, no formal study in
any high school "subjects" (plus a latent disorder/disability in math
coding, as it turned out) she HAS learned everything she needs and
wants, to be where she wants to be, doing what she wants to do and
charting her own wide-open future. When she got to college, it turned
out that English, theatre and film professors were excited to get their
hands on someone who hadn't been schooled and tested into comformity.
Here's a sample from when she was 16, about what kids learn from their
parents and other adults whether they are schooled or not:
http://misedjj.wordpress.com/2006/10/24/i-cant-hear-you-lalalala/
Meanwhile she grappled with the math and science she'd never studied,
and came through in her own ways that I'd never have predicted, and
feels good about it now.
So here's my advice to add to Schuyler's. It will all work out.
How?
It's a mystery!
JJ
Older, wiser and more sanguine than she used to be . . .
Meredith
--- In [email protected], "Brent & Rae" <rachaelreese@...> wrote:
Something I did with my dad was to say "I've been doing a lot of research on this, would you like me to email you some links?" I think I sent him the link to A to Z's Home's Cool first, which is a mammoth homeschooling informational site - it makes Sandra's look like the back of a cereal box in comparison. Overwhelming enough to make the point I wanted. Most people who are invested in school have No Idea how much information is available to homeschoolers these days.
http://homeschooling.gomilpitas.com/
Beyond that, I tried to stay out of direct conversations about homeschooling and didn't even talk about unschooling until recently. Now George and I are both confident enought to say "unschooling" and not be too phased by questions. Its easier with a teen - unschooling teens are just so cool! So its a delight to answer questions like "he so nice, what's your secret" with "we took him out of school and he turned back into a human being." Snippy, but essentially true.
---Meredith (Mo 7, Ray 15)
>She said (exact words): "He will be so far behind that if he ever wants to go to college he won't be able to. He will need some sort of formal education, whether that be public or private school."**********************
Something I did with my dad was to say "I've been doing a lot of research on this, would you like me to email you some links?" I think I sent him the link to A to Z's Home's Cool first, which is a mammoth homeschooling informational site - it makes Sandra's look like the back of a cereal box in comparison. Overwhelming enough to make the point I wanted. Most people who are invested in school have No Idea how much information is available to homeschoolers these days.
http://homeschooling.gomilpitas.com/
Beyond that, I tried to stay out of direct conversations about homeschooling and didn't even talk about unschooling until recently. Now George and I are both confident enought to say "unschooling" and not be too phased by questions. Its easier with a teen - unschooling teens are just so cool! So its a delight to answer questions like "he so nice, what's your secret" with "we took him out of school and he turned back into a human being." Snippy, but essentially true.
---Meredith (Mo 7, Ray 15)
Lisa
> ~~She said (exact words): "He will be so farMy daughter will be beginning college in the fall at a small private college that she applied to and won a substantial scholarship based on academic merit after being unschooled for most of her school career! There were many girls there that had attended private and public schools that had placed in remedial courses in order to be ready to take on the standard curriculum for their intended majors. My daughter will be taking an intermediate algebra before taking college algebra but she has a math LD so that makes sense in the scheme of things... the school she attended as a young child tested her for a math LD ... found the math LD but said her IQ was so high that they were just going to wait for her to fail before helping her because she was doing fine in their eyes (getting more frustrated each year, spending hours on math homework, in tears each afternoon because she didn't understand it etc).
> behind that if he ever wants to go to college he won't be able to. He
> will need some sort of formal education, whether that be public or
> private school."~~
>
Anyway long story short... my child does not need a period of "catching up" to attend college nor do most homeschooled children(whether unschooled or more traditionally homeschooled). The college that my daughter will be attending was very complimentary about homeschooling and worked with us to get all traditional documentation they needed translated from our homeschooling records. I wrote up course descriptions and included most of our nontraditional methods and outside activities in these descriptions which they were very impressed by. I think there are lists somewhere out there of colleges that are considered to be "homeschooler friendly" ... I would venture to say that most colleges fit that description as we applied to 4 state schools that also were very homeschooler friendly and 2 private colleges that were very homeschooler friendly. Perhaps your sister just needs to know that colleges understand and accept that homeschoolers may arrive with nontraditional transcripts but are every bit as prepared (and more in most cases) to attend college and succeed!
Lisa B
Heather
> ~~She said (exact words): "He will be so farJust as another anecdote: my son, who has never been to school, and
> behind that if he ever wants to go to college he won't be able to. He
> will need some sort of formal education, whether that be public or
> private school."~~
>
rarely and not recently(not in the past 2 years) opened a textbook or
studied any "academic" subject in a formal way(and voluntarily when he
did), took the CAT 5 9th grade test this spring as part of the NYS state
homeschooling reporting regulations that we comply with. I wouldn't
have thought to test him otherwise.
He scored above the 90% national percentile for 6 of the 10 tests. 85%
percentile overall. Now, this is completely irrelevant information, but
I find it to be quite amusing.
It reinforces my thoughts that spending time on preparing for these
types of tests is truly and utterly a waste of time. Perhaps some people
are just good test takers by nature, I know I always was. I enjoyed the
standardized tests- it was preferable to the rest of school. At least
now one was requiring me to speak up in class at that moment.
If I wanted to evaluate my children's "progress" or "success", which I
would do as feedback to myself as to what I could do differently to
support them, or as part of my enjoyment of them, I would look at so
much more- how they can make a meal for themselves, be persistent in
following through with a 3-4 month job search, organize their own rooms,
be kind to friends, "quit" things in a respectful manner, master a new
skateboard trick, play and compose complex and enjoyable music, sew 100
teddy bears by hand, care for a pet, and so on.
Your children may not be good test takers, or accomplish things in ways
that your relatives can understand or appreciate, but there are
unschoolers that have acheived in those ways, and there are stories out
there. My relatives have been able after a long time been able to see my
kids for the amazing human beings that they are beyond being good
"students", and we are complemented on the good job we have done with
them often. Which is also amusing - as it is the kids who are amazing in
themselves. As all kids are if given freedom to be.
--
Heather (in NY State)
Kelly Nishan
--- In [email protected], "Brent & Rae" <rachaelreese@...> wrote:
Kelly
>Your faith in your son is the only thing that matters. I had a hard time at first resisting the urge to explain my decisions but it got easier over time. It helps if you can give up the need to have other people understand and agree that you are doing the right thing. I find it easier now after 3 years to explain how we choose to live because I am not invested in anyone agreeing with me. On the occaions friends ask about it I'll talk about unschooling and usually wrap up with it's been a good decision for me and Lizzy and leave it at that.
> *I* believe that if he chooses to go on to a higher education, he'll be fine, but it's trying to explain that to well meaning family members and friends that worries me.
>
Kelly
Rod Thomas
I am interested in how he learned to do the math (for example) required to
pass the test.
kathy
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Heather
Sent: Monday, July 20, 2009 9:07 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Re: How to respond to sister/teacher
rarely and not recently(not in the past 2 years) opened a textbook or
studied any "academic" subject in a formal way(and voluntarily when he
did), took the CAT 5 9th grade test this spring as part of the NYS state
homeschooling reporting regulations that we comply with. I wouldn't
have thought to test him otherwise.
He scored above the 90% national percentile for 6 of the 10 tests. 85%
percentile overall. Now, this is completely irrelevant information, but
I find it to be quite amusing.
It reinforces my thoughts that spending time on preparing for these
types of tests is truly and utterly a waste of time. Perhaps some people
are just good test takers by nature, I know I always was. I enjoyed the
standardized tests- it was preferable to the rest of school. At least
now one was requiring me to speak up in class at that moment.
If I wanted to evaluate my children's "progress" or "success", which I
would do as feedback to myself as to what I could do differently to
support them, or as part of my enjoyment of them, I would look at so
much more- how they can make a meal for themselves, be persistent in
following through with a 3-4 month job search, organize their own rooms,
be kind to friends, "quit" things in a respectful manner, master a new
skateboard trick, play and compose complex and enjoyable music, sew 100
teddy bears by hand, care for a pet, and so on.
Your children may not be good test takers, or accomplish things in ways
that your relatives can understand or appreciate, but there are
unschoolers that have acheived in those ways, and there are stories out
there. My relatives have been able after a long time been able to see my
kids for the amazing human beings that they are beyond being good
"students", and we are complemented on the good job we have done with
them often. Which is also amusing - as it is the kids who are amazing in
themselves. As all kids are if given freedom to be.
--
Heather (in NY State)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
pass the test.
kathy
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Heather
Sent: Monday, July 20, 2009 9:07 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Re: How to respond to sister/teacher
> ~~She said (exact words): "He will be so farJust as another anecdote: my son, who has never been to school, and
> behind that if he ever wants to go to college he won't be able to. He
> will need some sort of formal education, whether that be public or
> private school."~~
>
rarely and not recently(not in the past 2 years) opened a textbook or
studied any "academic" subject in a formal way(and voluntarily when he
did), took the CAT 5 9th grade test this spring as part of the NYS state
homeschooling reporting regulations that we comply with. I wouldn't
have thought to test him otherwise.
He scored above the 90% national percentile for 6 of the 10 tests. 85%
percentile overall. Now, this is completely irrelevant information, but
I find it to be quite amusing.
It reinforces my thoughts that spending time on preparing for these
types of tests is truly and utterly a waste of time. Perhaps some people
are just good test takers by nature, I know I always was. I enjoyed the
standardized tests- it was preferable to the rest of school. At least
now one was requiring me to speak up in class at that moment.
If I wanted to evaluate my children's "progress" or "success", which I
would do as feedback to myself as to what I could do differently to
support them, or as part of my enjoyment of them, I would look at so
much more- how they can make a meal for themselves, be persistent in
following through with a 3-4 month job search, organize their own rooms,
be kind to friends, "quit" things in a respectful manner, master a new
skateboard trick, play and compose complex and enjoyable music, sew 100
teddy bears by hand, care for a pet, and so on.
Your children may not be good test takers, or accomplish things in ways
that your relatives can understand or appreciate, but there are
unschoolers that have acheived in those ways, and there are stories out
there. My relatives have been able after a long time been able to see my
kids for the amazing human beings that they are beyond being good
"students", and we are complemented on the good job we have done with
them often. Which is also amusing - as it is the kids who are amazing in
themselves. As all kids are if given freedom to be.
--
Heather (in NY State)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Faith Void
We pick up math everywhere. We live in PA and are required to test. Dd
chose to actually take the test. She got a 99%. She had a quick 5
minute chat with me about what the symbols mean and that was that.
She picked math up from living. We play games and talk about concepts
fwhenever they come up. She created many games herself when she was
little.
I don't look for math but if I did I would find it everywhere!
Faith
Sent from my iPhone
On Jul 20, 2009, at 10:38 PM, "Rod Thomas" <rodneykathy@...>
wrote:
chose to actually take the test. She got a 99%. She had a quick 5
minute chat with me about what the symbols mean and that was that.
She picked math up from living. We play games and talk about concepts
fwhenever they come up. She created many games herself when she was
little.
I don't look for math but if I did I would find it everywhere!
Faith
Sent from my iPhone
On Jul 20, 2009, at 10:38 PM, "Rod Thomas" <rodneykathy@...>
wrote:
> I am interested in how he learned to do the math (for example)[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> required to
> pass the test.
>
> kathy
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected]
> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Heather
> Sent: Monday, July 20, 2009 9:07 AM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Re: How to respond to sister/teacher
>
> > ~~She said (exact words): "He will be so far
> > behind that if he ever wants to go to college he won't be able to.
> He
> > will need some sort of formal education, whether that be public or
> > private school."~~
> >
>
> Just as another anecdote: my son, who has never been to school, and
> rarely and not recently(not in the past 2 years) opened a textbook or
> studied any "academic" subject in a formal way(and voluntarily when he
> did), took the CAT 5 9th grade test this spring as part of the NYS
> state
> homeschooling reporting regulations that we comply with. I wouldn't
> have thought to test him otherwise.
>
> He scored above the 90% national percentile for 6 of the 10 tests. 85%
> percentile overall. Now, this is completely irrelevant information,
> but
> I find it to be quite amusing.
>
> It reinforces my thoughts that spending time on preparing for these
> types of tests is truly and utterly a waste of time. Perhaps some
> people
> are just good test takers by nature, I know I always was. I enjoyed
> the
> standardized tests- it was preferable to the rest of school. At least
> now one was requiring me to speak up in class at that moment.
>
> If I wanted to evaluate my children's "progress" or "success", which I
> would do as feedback to myself as to what I could do differently to
> support them, or as part of my enjoyment of them, I would look at so
> much more- how they can make a meal for themselves, be persistent in
> following through with a 3-4 month job search, organize their own
> rooms,
> be kind to friends, "quit" things in a respectful manner, master a new
> skateboard trick, play and compose complex and enjoyable music, sew
> 100
> teddy bears by hand, care for a pet, and so on.
>
> Your children may not be good test takers, or accomplish things in
> ways
> that your relatives can understand or appreciate, but there are
> unschoolers that have acheived in those ways, and there are stories
> out
> there. My relatives have been able after a long time been able to
> see my
> kids for the amazing human beings that they are beyond being good
> "students", and we are complemented on the good job we have done with
> them often. Which is also amusing - as it is the kids who are
> amazing in
> themselves. As all kids are if given freedom to be.
>
> --
> Heather (in NY State)
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
Heather
Rod Thomas wrote:
composing music(upright and electric bass), gaming(Wii games, Starcraft,
Dungeons and Dragons, poker, Magic the Gathering), playing
sports(soccer, skateboarding, mountainbiking, basketball), working,
doing apprenticeships with a luthier and a sound engineer. He did do
some 6th/7th grade Saxon, a couple of years ago. Apparently he learned
enough about various things to figure out what was wanted on the tests.
My younger daughter took some tests also- and scored high on language
and reading, low on math.
Unschooling doesn't neccesarily lead to high test scores, but it can.
Same as schools. Some people are good at tests and "academic" subjects
whether they have been to school or not, just as lots of people are good
at many many other very useful and interesting things. Increasingly it
amazes me that so many people are so focused on those narrow measures of
success. (not applying to anything from this list- just a general
impression.)
Heather (in NY State)
>required to
>
> I am interested in how he learned to do the math (for example)
> pass the test.He has spent most of his time in the last few years playing and
>
> kathy
composing music(upright and electric bass), gaming(Wii games, Starcraft,
Dungeons and Dragons, poker, Magic the Gathering), playing
sports(soccer, skateboarding, mountainbiking, basketball), working,
doing apprenticeships with a luthier and a sound engineer. He did do
some 6th/7th grade Saxon, a couple of years ago. Apparently he learned
enough about various things to figure out what was wanted on the tests.
My younger daughter took some tests also- and scored high on language
and reading, low on math.
Unschooling doesn't neccesarily lead to high test scores, but it can.
Same as schools. Some people are good at tests and "academic" subjects
whether they have been to school or not, just as lots of people are good
at many many other very useful and interesting things. Increasingly it
amazes me that so many people are so focused on those narrow measures of
success. (not applying to anything from this list- just a general
impression.)
Heather (in NY State)
Tammy Brooks
> >Well, I am new to unschooling my kids, but I can say that for me success in university had absolutely nothing to do with public school. I left hs in grade 9, with occasional forays into some alternate ed programs thereafter, never completed anything beyond grade 8 maths or sciences because I didn't enjoy them. When I finally decided to go to school at 27, I did a placement test, scored in the top percentiles for everything except algebraic math and went on the graduate from university on the deans list while single parenting my young son. I could have upgraded maths and done something else, but chose to do a program that was up my alley that didn't have any math requirements. I do think I might have struggled if I had tried to go the math route, not because I hadn't learned it before but because I still don't enjoy all the rote learning involved. I find it tedious and can't get excited about it like I can with other schooly things like writing papers, which I loved.
> > *I* believe that if he chooses to go on to a higher education, he'll be fine, but it's trying to explain that to well meaning family members and friends that worries me.<<
Anyway, my point is that from my experience and from older unschoolers I know personally and from online, I am absolutely not worried about academics for children and it is not usually one of the criticisms that gets my hackles up ( I have others ). It sounds like it is still a worry for you though, so probably having some more success stories you can call up in your mind when other's doubts start to get to you could help. I find my need to defend is generally related to my own fear and doubt, so soothing that for myself keeps me calm, relaxed and confident and that just comes through in my responses.
I am dealing with my son's dad (ex-partner) and his family including a sister who is a teacher, who are really not happy that I decided to take him out of school, have been threatening court, etc. I almost wrote back a big defensive email to the recent concerns and then read Scott Noelle's post that has been reprinted here and remembered how confident I am that this is the right choice for us. So instead of sounding cornered and defensive in my response, I believe (hope) I sounded calm, confident and assured as well as understanding of his concern. When other people do question, I give them a little quip about Terran wanting to read for more than 15 minutes a day and not really wanting to glue cotton balls on construction paper and leave it at that unless they suddenly become very interested and start asking meaningful questions, which happens more often than I would have imagined.
Joyce Fetteroll
On Jul 20, 2009, at 10:38 PM, Rod Thomas wrote:
schooled kids miss out on: how numbers and concepts work. They learn
that numbers are fluid and, from seeing various concepts in different
contexts, why someone would want to multiply or use percentage and so
on.
What schooled kids get is a lot of practice at notation and number
crunching. The hope is that an understanding of the concepts will
come from doing lots and lots of problems. But it's very very hard to
grasp the concepts when the numbers are taken out of context and
stripped of meaning. (Like trying to memorize vocabulary and grammar
rules for a language you've never used.) It's just confusing to kids
to be made to do 17.3% of 128.91 when it has no meaning. But
unschooled kids are more likely to grasp the concept of percentage
when they've been using it to figure out how much tax will be added
to a purchase, how much tip to leave, how much power they have left,
how much to shrink a picture to fit it on the screen.
It's much much easier to figure out the notation after you grasp the
concepts rather than the other way around.
Kathryn began formal math at 14 in her father's college statistics
class and had no problems. He had probably shown her Fibonacci
numbers and a few other cool things. They read the Number Devil
together. But basically is was math found in real life used for real
things she cared about (allowance, buying things). Probably the
biggest was video games :-)
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> I am interested in how he learned to do the math (for example)What unschooled kids learn from math found in daily life is what
> required to
> pass the test.
schooled kids miss out on: how numbers and concepts work. They learn
that numbers are fluid and, from seeing various concepts in different
contexts, why someone would want to multiply or use percentage and so
on.
What schooled kids get is a lot of practice at notation and number
crunching. The hope is that an understanding of the concepts will
come from doing lots and lots of problems. But it's very very hard to
grasp the concepts when the numbers are taken out of context and
stripped of meaning. (Like trying to memorize vocabulary and grammar
rules for a language you've never used.) It's just confusing to kids
to be made to do 17.3% of 128.91 when it has no meaning. But
unschooled kids are more likely to grasp the concept of percentage
when they've been using it to figure out how much tax will be added
to a purchase, how much tip to leave, how much power they have left,
how much to shrink a picture to fit it on the screen.
It's much much easier to figure out the notation after you grasp the
concepts rather than the other way around.
Kathryn began formal math at 14 in her father's college statistics
class and had no problems. He had probably shown her Fibonacci
numbers and a few other cool things. They read the Number Devil
together. But basically is was math found in real life used for real
things she cared about (allowance, buying things). Probably the
biggest was video games :-)
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Rachael Reese
"But
unschooled kids are more likely to grasp the concept of percentage
when they've been using it to figure out how much tax will be added
to a purchase, how much tip to leave, how much power they have left,
how much to shrink a picture to fit it on the screen."
I just watched this happen as I played monopoly with my 9 year old. There's nothing like learning how to calculate 10% in order to find out if you'll have to fork over $200 of income tax or less :)
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Version: 8.5.392 / Virus Database: 270.13.21/2252 - Release Date: 07/21/09 05:58:00
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
unschooled kids are more likely to grasp the concept of percentage
when they've been using it to figure out how much tax will be added
to a purchase, how much tip to leave, how much power they have left,
how much to shrink a picture to fit it on the screen."
I just watched this happen as I played monopoly with my 9 year old. There's nothing like learning how to calculate 10% in order to find out if you'll have to fork over $200 of income tax or less :)
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No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 8.5.392 / Virus Database: 270.13.21/2252 - Release Date: 07/21/09 05:58:00
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]