Help with older son
susan burgess
Hi there, I have rarely posted on here, but read it all and have learned so much from you all. It has really changed things for me and my girls, but I need help with my son, Cody, that unfortunately wasn't unschooled. He is now 20, living with his dad (we divorced a few years ago) just 5 minutes away, engaged to a great girl and deeply unhappy. He is suffering from depression and anxiety that breaks my heart. He is also struggling with drugs - marijuana and whatever prescription pills he can get a hold of from various dealers, or his dad's medicine cabinet. He has drastically reduced his marijuana use, there was awhile there about 6 months ago we were in the process of staging an intervention because he was terribly addicted and doing anything he could to get it on a regular basis, but is staying off it now so that he can pass a drug test if he gets a job opportunity, which is great, but is now using the prescription pills whenever he can. He has many insecurities and thinks so badly of himself.
A bit of history on him... he was mostly homeschooled through elementary years, except an occasional try at public schools per his request, until he decided to go and stay in school in 6th grade. I had tried unschooling him early on after reading John Holt, but his dad was very against it so it didn't fly. So we muddled through homeschooling curriculum which I struggled with because it went against what I believed. Not an ideal situation! He was never happy in school, struggled to do the drudgery, but didn't want to homeschool either, he wanted to be with his friends. But, at the beginning of his junior year he came to me and said that he hadn't been going to class at all, he had no interest and didn't want to continue. I fully supported him in that, so he left school and got a job at the grocery store which he mostly enjoyed and did a great job there and met his now fiancé there. He has now been out of a job over a year and a half. He had decided he wanted something different, so he quit, then didn't get the job he wanted, and has been looking for another one since then. Just before he quit his job, he got his own car loan and bought a car, after he quit, I and his dad some, made his car and insurance payments for him, up until several months ago that is, we were struggling ourselves and couldn't keep his payments up along with ours, and any money he got, from odd jobs he did for friends, he would spend on drugs rather than put towards car payments. His car then got repossessed about a month ago. That was hard for him at first, but, he had been wanting to get rid of the car to get a cheap truck, so he ended up letting the bank keep the car and his dad helped him buy an inexpensive truck with no loan. He gave him the condition though that the truck was only to be driven to job interviews until he could pay for the insurance and the extra he owes on the repo'd car himself and he has to pay his dad back. He's not following that at all and drives the truck frequently, totally ignoring his dad.
I'm not sure of my specific question, and feel that I am leaving out alot. But, basically, I don't know how to help him. I also have 2 younger daughters, 15 and 11, they are very happily enjoying the unschooling that we embraced about a year ago, but, we are all sad that he didn't get to experience this and don't know what to do for him. He is terribly lost, doesn't know what he wants in life, gets very down, there have been several suicidal scares, he and his fiancé, whom we all love, fight often, he is very jealous and tries to control much of her life, who she sees, who her friends are. I know it stems from terribly insecurity. Some of that I'm sure comes from things he didn't get as a child from me, my inconsistencies. Much of that is from his dad. His dad loves him, but is not at all good at showing it to any of the kids. Just before he moved in with his dad, which was about 7 months after his dad moved out, he had told me that he was certain that dad didn't love him or give a shit about him at all...how awful for him to feel that way. Their dad was very disconnected from their lives, for all of their lives, very sad for all of them. But, his dad decided he wanted Cody to come live with him, and when I told my son that, his face lit up, hearing that his dad wanted him there meant the world to him. And, I know, moving out of a house full of girls was appealing too :-) Now, they still live together, but rarely see each other, it hasn't helped their relationship, basically Cody has the place to himself because his dad is out most of the time.
We have tried to get him help, counseling, drug treatment, we found a great counseling center that he liked, the counselor he met with was great, he connected with her, they offered personal counseling and classes in what he needed, but he didn't follow through.
Part of my problem is I find myself occasionally getting irritated that he's not trying very hard to get a job, spends much of the money he gets, even money we give him for food, on drugs or just spends it on little things. I'm struggling myself financially so it's hard to see money I need going for that. I know that attitude is not helping, only makes things worse, so I'm becoming more aware of what I think and how I act. Any advice would be appreciated. Thanks for listening so long!
Susan
A bit of history on him... he was mostly homeschooled through elementary years, except an occasional try at public schools per his request, until he decided to go and stay in school in 6th grade. I had tried unschooling him early on after reading John Holt, but his dad was very against it so it didn't fly. So we muddled through homeschooling curriculum which I struggled with because it went against what I believed. Not an ideal situation! He was never happy in school, struggled to do the drudgery, but didn't want to homeschool either, he wanted to be with his friends. But, at the beginning of his junior year he came to me and said that he hadn't been going to class at all, he had no interest and didn't want to continue. I fully supported him in that, so he left school and got a job at the grocery store which he mostly enjoyed and did a great job there and met his now fiancé there. He has now been out of a job over a year and a half. He had decided he wanted something different, so he quit, then didn't get the job he wanted, and has been looking for another one since then. Just before he quit his job, he got his own car loan and bought a car, after he quit, I and his dad some, made his car and insurance payments for him, up until several months ago that is, we were struggling ourselves and couldn't keep his payments up along with ours, and any money he got, from odd jobs he did for friends, he would spend on drugs rather than put towards car payments. His car then got repossessed about a month ago. That was hard for him at first, but, he had been wanting to get rid of the car to get a cheap truck, so he ended up letting the bank keep the car and his dad helped him buy an inexpensive truck with no loan. He gave him the condition though that the truck was only to be driven to job interviews until he could pay for the insurance and the extra he owes on the repo'd car himself and he has to pay his dad back. He's not following that at all and drives the truck frequently, totally ignoring his dad.
I'm not sure of my specific question, and feel that I am leaving out alot. But, basically, I don't know how to help him. I also have 2 younger daughters, 15 and 11, they are very happily enjoying the unschooling that we embraced about a year ago, but, we are all sad that he didn't get to experience this and don't know what to do for him. He is terribly lost, doesn't know what he wants in life, gets very down, there have been several suicidal scares, he and his fiancé, whom we all love, fight often, he is very jealous and tries to control much of her life, who she sees, who her friends are. I know it stems from terribly insecurity. Some of that I'm sure comes from things he didn't get as a child from me, my inconsistencies. Much of that is from his dad. His dad loves him, but is not at all good at showing it to any of the kids. Just before he moved in with his dad, which was about 7 months after his dad moved out, he had told me that he was certain that dad didn't love him or give a shit about him at all...how awful for him to feel that way. Their dad was very disconnected from their lives, for all of their lives, very sad for all of them. But, his dad decided he wanted Cody to come live with him, and when I told my son that, his face lit up, hearing that his dad wanted him there meant the world to him. And, I know, moving out of a house full of girls was appealing too :-) Now, they still live together, but rarely see each other, it hasn't helped their relationship, basically Cody has the place to himself because his dad is out most of the time.
We have tried to get him help, counseling, drug treatment, we found a great counseling center that he liked, the counselor he met with was great, he connected with her, they offered personal counseling and classes in what he needed, but he didn't follow through.
Part of my problem is I find myself occasionally getting irritated that he's not trying very hard to get a job, spends much of the money he gets, even money we give him for food, on drugs or just spends it on little things. I'm struggling myself financially so it's hard to see money I need going for that. I know that attitude is not helping, only makes things worse, so I'm becoming more aware of what I think and how I act. Any advice would be appreciated. Thanks for listening so long!
Susan
[email protected]
Until he decides for himself that he needs to get clean, there's not much you can do. If you keep giving him money, etc., he will keep taking. It's not you. It's not homeschooling or unschooling. It's not about a lot of things. He's an addict. That's all he is focussed on and he will say and do anything to get drugs -- play one person against another, promise the world, etc. Eventually, he will begin committing crimes to get his drugs, get arrested, several times, go on his own or be ordered to rehab, which may or may not stick, and/or prison.
Nance -- speaking from our sad family experience.
Nance -- speaking from our sad family experience.
--- In [email protected], "susan burgess" <susands@...> wrote:
>
> Hi there, I have rarely posted on here, but read it all and have learned so much from you all. It has really changed things for me and my girls, but I need help with my son, Cody, that unfortunately wasn't unschooled. He is now 20, living with his dad (we divorced a few years ago) just 5 minutes away, engaged to a great girl and deeply unhappy. He is suffering from depression and anxiety that breaks my heart. He is also struggling with drugs - marijuana and whatever prescription pills he can get a hold of from various dealers, or his dad's medicine cabinet. He has drastically reduced his marijuana use, there was awhile there about 6 months ago we were in the process of staging an intervention because he was terribly addicted and doing anything he could to get it on a regular basis, but is staying off it now so that he can pass a drug test if he gets a job opportunity, which is great, but is now using the prescription pills whenever he can. He has many insecurities and thinks so badly of himself.
> A bit of history on him... he was mostly homeschooled through elementary years, except an occasional try at public schools per his request, until he decided to go and stay in school in 6th grade. I had tried unschooling him early on after reading John Holt, but his dad was very against it so it didn't fly. So we muddled through homeschooling curriculum which I struggled with because it went against what I believed. Not an ideal situation! He was never happy in school, struggled to do the drudgery, but didn't want to homeschool either, he wanted to be with his friends. But, at the beginning of his junior year he came to me and said that he hadn't been going to class at all, he had no interest and didn't want to continue. I fully supported him in that, so he left school and got a job at the grocery store which he mostly enjoyed and did a great job there and met his now fiancé there. He has now been out of a job over a year and a half. He had decided he wanted something different, so he quit, then didn't get the job he wanted, and has been looking for another one since then. Just before he quit his job, he got his own car loan and bought a car, after he quit, I and his dad some, made his car and insurance payments for him, up until several months ago that is, we were struggling ourselves and couldn't keep his payments up along with ours, and any money he got, from odd jobs he did for friends, he would spend on drugs rather than put towards car payments. His car then got repossessed about a month ago. That was hard for him at first, but, he had been wanting to get rid of the car to get a cheap truck, so he ended up letting the bank keep the car and his dad helped him buy an inexpensive truck with no loan. He gave him the condition though that the truck was only to be driven to job interviews until he could pay for the insurance and the extra he owes on the repo'd car himself and he has to pay his dad back. He's not following that at all and drives the truck frequently, totally ignoring his dad.
> I'm not sure of my specific question, and feel that I am leaving out alot. But, basically, I don't know how to help him. I also have 2 younger daughters, 15 and 11, they are very happily enjoying the unschooling that we embraced about a year ago, but, we are all sad that he didn't get to experience this and don't know what to do for him. He is terribly lost, doesn't know what he wants in life, gets very down, there have been several suicidal scares, he and his fiancé, whom we all love, fight often, he is very jealous and tries to control much of her life, who she sees, who her friends are. I know it stems from terribly insecurity. Some of that I'm sure comes from things he didn't get as a child from me, my inconsistencies. Much of that is from his dad. His dad loves him, but is not at all good at showing it to any of the kids. Just before he moved in with his dad, which was about 7 months after his dad moved out, he had told me that he was certain that dad didn't love him or give a shit about him at all...how awful for him to feel that way. Their dad was very disconnected from their lives, for all of their lives, very sad for all of them. But, his dad decided he wanted Cody to come live with him, and when I told my son that, his face lit up, hearing that his dad wanted him there meant the world to him. And, I know, moving out of a house full of girls was appealing too :-) Now, they still live together, but rarely see each other, it hasn't helped their relationship, basically Cody has the place to himself because his dad is out most of the time.
> We have tried to get him help, counseling, drug treatment, we found a great counseling center that he liked, the counselor he met with was great, he connected with her, they offered personal counseling and classes in what he needed, but he didn't follow through.
> Part of my problem is I find myself occasionally getting irritated that he's not trying very hard to get a job, spends much of the money he gets, even money we give him for food, on drugs or just spends it on little things. I'm struggling myself financially so it's hard to see money I need going for that. I know that attitude is not helping, only makes things worse, so I'm becoming more aware of what I think and how I act. Any advice would be appreciated. Thanks for listening so long!
> Susan
>
Karen Swanay
She's right. Doesn't matter what "caused" it...it's all about being
an addict now. And you can't fix that for him. He'll have to "hit
bottom" and decide for himself it's time to change his life. Since
money seems to be an issue, you could see about taking him to an NA
open meeting ( they are free) and see if he'll listen. But in the
end, he has to want this for himself. Sadly it may never happen or it
will take a great amount of personal and familial suffering for him to
get to that point. My heart goes out to you all.
Karen -- also speaking from my sad family experiences.
"I argue that the Talmud is about the constant struggle to understand."
~Arthur Hertzberg
On Wed, Jul 1, 2009 at 7:33 AM, marbleface@...
<marbleface@...> wrote:
an addict now. And you can't fix that for him. He'll have to "hit
bottom" and decide for himself it's time to change his life. Since
money seems to be an issue, you could see about taking him to an NA
open meeting ( they are free) and see if he'll listen. But in the
end, he has to want this for himself. Sadly it may never happen or it
will take a great amount of personal and familial suffering for him to
get to that point. My heart goes out to you all.
Karen -- also speaking from my sad family experiences.
"I argue that the Talmud is about the constant struggle to understand."
~Arthur Hertzberg
On Wed, Jul 1, 2009 at 7:33 AM, marbleface@...
<marbleface@...> wrote:
>
>
> Until he decides for himself that he needs to get clean, there's not much you can do. If you keep giving him money, etc., he will keep taking. It's not you. It's not homeschooling or unschooling. It's not about a lot of things. He's an addict. That's all he is focussed on and he will say and do anything to get drugs -- play one person against another, promise the world, etc. Eventually, he will begin committing crimes to get his drugs, get arrested, several times, go on his own or be ordered to rehab, which may or may not stick, and/or prison.
>
> Nance -- speaking from our sad family experience.
Deborah
I have a few very limited bits of advice.
The first is to figure out for yourself *EXACTLY* what you feel you want to help your son with, how much aid you feel able to give him (in both time and money) and then figure out how to do just exactly that. For instance, if you can't stand the thought of him going hungry, bring him groceries or take him shopping instead of giving him cash. Giving him money is just setting you both up - you'll end up disappointed and angry, he'll end up feeling guilty and resentful.
The second bit of advice is very hard, but I think you should reach out a hand to your son's fiance, help her find counseling and perhaps courage to leave him. Your description of your son's behaviour towards her is classic warning signs of abuse. It would be a loving action to do what you can to help prevent your son from becoming an abusive man.
Deborah in IL
The first is to figure out for yourself *EXACTLY* what you feel you want to help your son with, how much aid you feel able to give him (in both time and money) and then figure out how to do just exactly that. For instance, if you can't stand the thought of him going hungry, bring him groceries or take him shopping instead of giving him cash. Giving him money is just setting you both up - you'll end up disappointed and angry, he'll end up feeling guilty and resentful.
The second bit of advice is very hard, but I think you should reach out a hand to your son's fiance, help her find counseling and perhaps courage to leave him. Your description of your son's behaviour towards her is classic warning signs of abuse. It would be a loving action to do what you can to help prevent your son from becoming an abusive man.
Deborah in IL
carenkh
I'm not sure what to write, exactly, because I've been in your older son's position, somewhat.
Definitely agree with not giving money directly, but if you're able to and have a desire to, pay directly for groceries, rent and utilities. I'm not saying you NEED to do that, but if you can and want to, it's best it goes directly to those basic needs.
I self-identified as an addict for many years, I had over 16 years clean in recovery when I stopped going to 12-step meetings. It's something Lisa Heyman and I were discussing before she died... what place does recovery hold in a life you're creating of joy? It just didn't feel right to go to meetings; I wasn't getting anything out of it, the few people that asked me to sponsor them did not follow through with calling me or working the steps. There was very little joy in the people I knew in recovery. I just stopped going.
It's been close to 3 years now, and I think I understand my choice a little better, especially after reading the Rat Park study Schuyler posted. (Rat Park? Is that what it was called?) I am following through, the best as I am able, on creating a life I *love*. I have learned to follow my gut and heart-level promptings, and to ask for help when I need. I learned to ask myself, "What would I be doing if I had unlimited money and unlimited energy?" Then find a way to make those things happen, for me and the boys - because there's always a way, always a "yes".
I'm wondering if you asked your son that question (and he really might not know now) and fully supported him in reaching what he wants, if that might make the biggest difference of all?
I'm not entirely sure I buy the "they must hit bottom" line any more. It might still be true! I sure had to learn how to take responsibility for my choices... interestingly enough, I learned to do that through unschooling and helping my boys live in their shine, more than anything else. Because I had a STRONG desire to create a life we all wanted to be in, there's no longer a need to escape it.
My .02,
peace to you,
Caren
Definitely agree with not giving money directly, but if you're able to and have a desire to, pay directly for groceries, rent and utilities. I'm not saying you NEED to do that, but if you can and want to, it's best it goes directly to those basic needs.
I self-identified as an addict for many years, I had over 16 years clean in recovery when I stopped going to 12-step meetings. It's something Lisa Heyman and I were discussing before she died... what place does recovery hold in a life you're creating of joy? It just didn't feel right to go to meetings; I wasn't getting anything out of it, the few people that asked me to sponsor them did not follow through with calling me or working the steps. There was very little joy in the people I knew in recovery. I just stopped going.
It's been close to 3 years now, and I think I understand my choice a little better, especially after reading the Rat Park study Schuyler posted. (Rat Park? Is that what it was called?) I am following through, the best as I am able, on creating a life I *love*. I have learned to follow my gut and heart-level promptings, and to ask for help when I need. I learned to ask myself, "What would I be doing if I had unlimited money and unlimited energy?" Then find a way to make those things happen, for me and the boys - because there's always a way, always a "yes".
I'm wondering if you asked your son that question (and he really might not know now) and fully supported him in reaching what he wants, if that might make the biggest difference of all?
I'm not entirely sure I buy the "they must hit bottom" line any more. It might still be true! I sure had to learn how to take responsibility for my choices... interestingly enough, I learned to do that through unschooling and helping my boys live in their shine, more than anything else. Because I had a STRONG desire to create a life we all wanted to be in, there's no longer a need to escape it.
My .02,
peace to you,
Caren
Susan Burgess
Thank you all so much for sharing with me what I know were painful things
for you. I know you are all right about not giving him money directly. We
had stopped doing that quite awhile ago when his marijuana use was very bad,
but lately, I had thought with him off of that, he was not using and I could
give him money, but, come to find out, he using pills often, so, I will
start buying the groceries for him. Unfortunately, today is his birthday and
he has a lot of money coming his way. The only thing he's asked for is a new
muffler for his truck, I could withhold the money I was going to give him
for that until he picks one out. I know his dad is giving him money, as is
my mom and sister have already sent it to him.
-----Sadly it may never happen or it
will take a great amount of personal and familial suffering for him to
get to that point. My heart goes out to you all.--------
It has been doing that for quite awhile now. My girls and I suffer a lot in
trying to help him and worrying about him. I protect them from much of it,
per their request, but they still see some of the drama and trauma, they
know how unhappy he is, when he's using, it's very stressful for all of us.
He knows how much we worry, but, he doesn't think he needs help, not
counseling, nor does he think he's addicted. He thinks it's bad right now,
but 'once I get a job, once Lexie and I get our own place' it will all be
better and he will be happy. We know that's not true at all.
------The second bit of advice is very hard, but I think you should reach
out a hand to your son's fiance, help her find counseling and perhaps
courage to leave him. Your description of your son's behaviour towards her
is classic warning signs of abuse. It would be a loving action to do what
you can to help prevent your son from becoming an abusive man.-------
You're right, that is very hard advice. I admit that I have thought that
before. I do not believe he would ever become physically abusive towards
her, in many ways, he is very good to her and has helped her with her
self-esteem issues, but it hurts me to see him trying to control her that
way. I know if she were my daughter and he not my son, I would be telling
her to run. I have tried to get her into counseling, but her parents won't
pay for it and I can't do it for her. She has tried to get Cody to go in,
and her go with him, but he won't go. She and I have talked in the past,
when we were talking intervention with him, and she has almost left him
several times, but the thought of her leaving him terrifies me because I
know, and my girls know, that if she goes, chances are very high he will
take his life. So, how can I suggest something that could likely do that? I
feel awful either way.
------I'm wondering if you asked your son that question (and he really might
not know now) and fully supported him in reaching what he wants, if that
might make the biggest difference of all?-----
I have asked that, we've had some good talks sometimes, and mostly, he
really doesn't know. He's had some opportunities to exlpore different
options, but hasn't taken them. There was a guy he helped move that was
really impressed with his work and he was in charge of the construction
apprenticeship program, lots of training, pay during it, and he offered to
get him into it, and Cody thought about it, said he needed to refresh on
math stuff, so I bought him a few workbooks, but then he turned it down
because he wasn't sure he wanted to do construction. A little while ago he
said he thought he might like to do real estate, that he thought he could
enjoy that, but wasn't sure what it took to get going. So, I contacted the
realtor we had on this house that's a great guy, and he laid out what was
involved and offered to help, then Cody decided that the market wasn't good
right now (which of course it isn't) and that wasn't the way to go. He was
over here last week and said he would like to do something where he could
study the effects of drugs on the mind, he said he was fascinated by how
many drugs (mostly the kind he uses, or would like to use) affect the brain,
he has done alot of reading about it and wondered if he could get into
research on that. I suggested some science classes at the local college here
to get started and see where it led, not sure what he will do.
I guess one thing I need help with is figuring out if I'm supporting him, or
am I letting him walk all over me. I feel it's a bit of both. I feel so
awful for how unhappy he is, and he knows how to push my buttons, that when
he's really down, I will do just about anything to try to help him feel
better. I feel we've made it very easy for him to stay in this pattern. He's
got a place practically to himself to live that he doesn't pay a thing for,
food and occasional gas supplied to him, (which is all part of being his
parent) new truck when the car got taken away, we keep supporting the fact
that he doesn't get a job, he sends in applications, but he isn't out there
in the way he could be, really trying to get one. I know all the time he has
on his hands makes his depression worse, he knows it too. If he were just
happily living at home still, exploring options, enjoying life, it would be
very different, but he's not happy at all, he's not enjoying life, he's not
helping himself or taking any responsibilities in life. That's what I don't
know how to handle.
Thank you all again!
susan
for you. I know you are all right about not giving him money directly. We
had stopped doing that quite awhile ago when his marijuana use was very bad,
but lately, I had thought with him off of that, he was not using and I could
give him money, but, come to find out, he using pills often, so, I will
start buying the groceries for him. Unfortunately, today is his birthday and
he has a lot of money coming his way. The only thing he's asked for is a new
muffler for his truck, I could withhold the money I was going to give him
for that until he picks one out. I know his dad is giving him money, as is
my mom and sister have already sent it to him.
-----Sadly it may never happen or it
will take a great amount of personal and familial suffering for him to
get to that point. My heart goes out to you all.--------
It has been doing that for quite awhile now. My girls and I suffer a lot in
trying to help him and worrying about him. I protect them from much of it,
per their request, but they still see some of the drama and trauma, they
know how unhappy he is, when he's using, it's very stressful for all of us.
He knows how much we worry, but, he doesn't think he needs help, not
counseling, nor does he think he's addicted. He thinks it's bad right now,
but 'once I get a job, once Lexie and I get our own place' it will all be
better and he will be happy. We know that's not true at all.
------The second bit of advice is very hard, but I think you should reach
out a hand to your son's fiance, help her find counseling and perhaps
courage to leave him. Your description of your son's behaviour towards her
is classic warning signs of abuse. It would be a loving action to do what
you can to help prevent your son from becoming an abusive man.-------
You're right, that is very hard advice. I admit that I have thought that
before. I do not believe he would ever become physically abusive towards
her, in many ways, he is very good to her and has helped her with her
self-esteem issues, but it hurts me to see him trying to control her that
way. I know if she were my daughter and he not my son, I would be telling
her to run. I have tried to get her into counseling, but her parents won't
pay for it and I can't do it for her. She has tried to get Cody to go in,
and her go with him, but he won't go. She and I have talked in the past,
when we were talking intervention with him, and she has almost left him
several times, but the thought of her leaving him terrifies me because I
know, and my girls know, that if she goes, chances are very high he will
take his life. So, how can I suggest something that could likely do that? I
feel awful either way.
------I'm wondering if you asked your son that question (and he really might
not know now) and fully supported him in reaching what he wants, if that
might make the biggest difference of all?-----
I have asked that, we've had some good talks sometimes, and mostly, he
really doesn't know. He's had some opportunities to exlpore different
options, but hasn't taken them. There was a guy he helped move that was
really impressed with his work and he was in charge of the construction
apprenticeship program, lots of training, pay during it, and he offered to
get him into it, and Cody thought about it, said he needed to refresh on
math stuff, so I bought him a few workbooks, but then he turned it down
because he wasn't sure he wanted to do construction. A little while ago he
said he thought he might like to do real estate, that he thought he could
enjoy that, but wasn't sure what it took to get going. So, I contacted the
realtor we had on this house that's a great guy, and he laid out what was
involved and offered to help, then Cody decided that the market wasn't good
right now (which of course it isn't) and that wasn't the way to go. He was
over here last week and said he would like to do something where he could
study the effects of drugs on the mind, he said he was fascinated by how
many drugs (mostly the kind he uses, or would like to use) affect the brain,
he has done alot of reading about it and wondered if he could get into
research on that. I suggested some science classes at the local college here
to get started and see where it led, not sure what he will do.
I guess one thing I need help with is figuring out if I'm supporting him, or
am I letting him walk all over me. I feel it's a bit of both. I feel so
awful for how unhappy he is, and he knows how to push my buttons, that when
he's really down, I will do just about anything to try to help him feel
better. I feel we've made it very easy for him to stay in this pattern. He's
got a place practically to himself to live that he doesn't pay a thing for,
food and occasional gas supplied to him, (which is all part of being his
parent) new truck when the car got taken away, we keep supporting the fact
that he doesn't get a job, he sends in applications, but he isn't out there
in the way he could be, really trying to get one. I know all the time he has
on his hands makes his depression worse, he knows it too. If he were just
happily living at home still, exploring options, enjoying life, it would be
very different, but he's not happy at all, he's not enjoying life, he's not
helping himself or taking any responsibilities in life. That's what I don't
know how to handle.
Thank you all again!
susan
On Wed, Jul 1, 2009 at 6:21 AM, carenkh <carenkh@...> wrote:
>
>
> I'm not sure what to write, exactly, because I've been in your older son's
> position, somewhat.
>
> Definitely agree with not giving money directly, but if you're able to and
> have a desire to, pay directly for groceries, rent and utilities. I'm not
> saying you NEED to do that, but if you can and want to, it's best it goes
> directly to those basic needs.
>
> I self-identified as an addict for many years, I had over 16 years clean in
> recovery when I stopped going to 12-step meetings. It's something Lisa
> Heyman and I were discussing before she died... what place does recovery
> hold in a life you're creating of joy? It just didn't feel right to go to
> meetings; I wasn't getting anything out of it, the few people that asked me
> to sponsor them did not follow through with calling me or working the steps.
> There was very little joy in the people I knew in recovery. I just stopped
> going.
>
> It's been close to 3 years now, and I think I understand my choice a little
> better, especially after reading the Rat Park study Schuyler posted. (Rat
> Park? Is that what it was called?) I am following through, the best as I am
> able, on creating a life I *love*. I have learned to follow my gut and
> heart-level promptings, and to ask for help when I need. I learned to ask
> myself, "What would I be doing if I had unlimited money and unlimited
> energy?" Then find a way to make those things happen, for me and the boys -
> because there's always a way, always a "yes".
>
> I'm wondering if you asked your son that question (and he really might not
> know now) and fully supported him in reaching what he wants, if that might
> make the biggest difference of all?
>
> I'm not entirely sure I buy the "they must hit bottom" line any more. It
> might still be true! I sure had to learn how to take responsibility for my
> choices... interestingly enough, I learned to do that through unschooling
> and helping my boys live in their shine, more than anything else. Because I
> had a STRONG desire to create a life we all wanted to be in, there's no
> longer a need to escape it.
>
> My .02,
>
> peace to you,
>
> Caren
>
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Karen Swanay
You know I've been cogitating on this for a while and I think that you
did "hit bottom"...for many addicts it's prison, or families walk out,
or homelessness etc....but I don't think that "hitting bottom" has to
be a negative. I think of it as more of a place you get to where the
risks of your lifestyle outweigh the benefits you got from your
addiction. For many people that's a negative, but for you it was a
positive thing. You didn't need to escape anymore and more than that
you had a life you wanted to be present in and children you wanted to
know. Hitting bottom doesn't have to be a place where you have no
further to fall....it can simply be the place where you stand, take a
deep breath and say "Enough!"
Karen
"I argue that the Talmud is about the constant struggle to understand."
~Arthur Hertzberg
did "hit bottom"...for many addicts it's prison, or families walk out,
or homelessness etc....but I don't think that "hitting bottom" has to
be a negative. I think of it as more of a place you get to where the
risks of your lifestyle outweigh the benefits you got from your
addiction. For many people that's a negative, but for you it was a
positive thing. You didn't need to escape anymore and more than that
you had a life you wanted to be present in and children you wanted to
know. Hitting bottom doesn't have to be a place where you have no
further to fall....it can simply be the place where you stand, take a
deep breath and say "Enough!"
Karen
"I argue that the Talmud is about the constant struggle to understand."
~Arthur Hertzberg
On Wed, Jul 1, 2009 at 9:21 AM, carenkh<carenkh@...> wrote:
> I'm not entirely sure I buy the "they must hit bottom" line any more. It
> might still be true! I sure had to learn how to take responsibility for my
> choices... interestingly enough, I learned to do that through unschooling
> and helping my boys live in their shine, more than anything else. Because I
> had a STRONG desire to create a life we all wanted to be in, there's no
> longer a need to escape it.
>
> My .02,
>
> peace to you,
>
> Caren
Schuyler
It is Rat Park. http://www.walrusmagazine.com/articles/2007.12-health-rat-trap/ is a nice article about it. There is more stuff around about Rat Park and Bruce Alexander has written a book that's been sitting in my amazon.co.uk basket for a while now. But the article in The Walrus is a nice start.
Schuyler
________________________________
It's been close to 3 years now, and I think I understand my choice a little better, especially after reading the Rat Park study Schuyler posted. (Rat Park? Is that what it was called?) I am following through, the best as I am able, on creating a life I *love*. I have learned to follow my gut and heart-level promptings, and to ask for help when I need. I learned to ask myself, "What would I be doing if I had unlimited money and unlimited energy?" Then find a way to make those things happen, for me and the boys - because there's always a way, always a "yes".
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Schuyler
________________________________
It's been close to 3 years now, and I think I understand my choice a little better, especially after reading the Rat Park study Schuyler posted. (Rat Park? Is that what it was called?) I am following through, the best as I am able, on creating a life I *love*. I have learned to follow my gut and heart-level promptings, and to ask for help when I need. I learned to ask myself, "What would I be doing if I had unlimited money and unlimited energy?" Then find a way to make those things happen, for me and the boys - because there's always a way, always a "yes".
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Meredith
Susan, you might want to ask on some other lists, as this isn't a specific unschooling question.
One possibility is a list called Crazy Life Unschooling:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/crazylifeunschoolers/
Another, Consensual Living, shares a great many principles with radical unschooling:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/consensual-living/
You could also check with the Peaceful Partnerships list if it would be appropriate to ask there - or if you could at least lurk there, since some of the discussions could apply to your situation:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Peacefulpartnerships/
Those are all lists that deal a bit more with adult situations and contexts, anyway.
---Meredith (Mo 7, Ray 15)
One possibility is a list called Crazy Life Unschooling:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/crazylifeunschoolers/
Another, Consensual Living, shares a great many principles with radical unschooling:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/consensual-living/
You could also check with the Peaceful Partnerships list if it would be appropriate to ask there - or if you could at least lurk there, since some of the discussions could apply to your situation:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Peacefulpartnerships/
Those are all lists that deal a bit more with adult situations and contexts, anyway.
---Meredith (Mo 7, Ray 15)
sistergoddesselli
I haven't read all of the responses to your question. So, someone else may have suggested this... Al Anon helped me and my family work through similar situations (there were two people addicted in our family, my brother and my brother-in-law).
I have found Al Anon to be a foundation philosophy for my life. In fact, all of the other ideas that I am pursuing or exploring like un-schooling work beautifully in tandem and harmony with what I learned in Al Anon.
Both my brother and brother-in-law found their way to sobriety and are active members of AA (Alcoholics Anonymous). Although not everyone who struggles with addiction can make their way to being clean and sober, AA has the highest success rate of any approach.
I would recommend finding some Al Anon groups and going several times to get a feel for it. Even bringing your girls and other family members, if they are interested. You don't have to get your son into AA, that's his job. You do have to take care of yourself, as that is your job now!
Here's a website: http://www.al-anon.alateen.org/
Good luck. You are a great mom.
Love,
Elli
I have found Al Anon to be a foundation philosophy for my life. In fact, all of the other ideas that I am pursuing or exploring like un-schooling work beautifully in tandem and harmony with what I learned in Al Anon.
Both my brother and brother-in-law found their way to sobriety and are active members of AA (Alcoholics Anonymous). Although not everyone who struggles with addiction can make their way to being clean and sober, AA has the highest success rate of any approach.
I would recommend finding some Al Anon groups and going several times to get a feel for it. Even bringing your girls and other family members, if they are interested. You don't have to get your son into AA, that's his job. You do have to take care of yourself, as that is your job now!
Here's a website: http://www.al-anon.alateen.org/
Good luck. You are a great mom.
Love,
Elli
[email protected]
None of the good things you want for him -- that any parent would want -- will happen until he gets off the drugs.
That's just how it is and the rest of it is just talk and will be just talk. Mixed with enough false starts to keep you hoping. And enough guilt to keep you giving.
I'm not saying he's a bad person who would do these things normally. He is an addict. He is not the same person he was or could be.
And, of course he denies it all.
Even though he won't go, I would urge you to get yourself to counseling just to reassure yourself that you are far from alone in this mess and to figure out how you want to handle things.
{{{}}}
Nance
That's just how it is and the rest of it is just talk and will be just talk. Mixed with enough false starts to keep you hoping. And enough guilt to keep you giving.
I'm not saying he's a bad person who would do these things normally. He is an addict. He is not the same person he was or could be.
And, of course he denies it all.
Even though he won't go, I would urge you to get yourself to counseling just to reassure yourself that you are far from alone in this mess and to figure out how you want to handle things.
{{{}}}
Nance
Elissa
Susan, you cannot make him change. That's up to him. I strongly suggest calling Al-Anon and taking yourself to a meeting. Al-Anon is to help you, not him.
http://www.al-anon.alateen.org/
Elissa, Unschooling Momma to Emily 15, and Max 9. Proud Momma to Zack, 21.
How is it that little children are so intelligent and men so stupid? It must be education that does it.
--Alexandre Dumas
http://www.al-anon.alateen.org/
Elissa, Unschooling Momma to Emily 15, and Max 9. Proud Momma to Zack, 21.
How is it that little children are so intelligent and men so stupid? It must be education that does it.
--Alexandre Dumas
----- Original Message -----
From: "susan burgess" <susands@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Wednesday, July 1, 2009 12:07:59 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Help with older son
Hi there, I have rarely posted on here, but read it all and have learned so much from you all. It has really changed things for me and my girls, but I need help with my son, Cody, that unfortunately wasn't unschooled. He is now 20, living with his dad (we divorced a few years ago) just 5 minutes away, engaged to a great girl and deeply unhappy. He is suffering from depression and anxiety that breaks my heart. He is also struggling with drugs - marijuana and whatever prescription pills he can get a hold of from various dealers, or his dad's medicine cabinet. He has drastically reduced his marijuana use, there was awhile there about 6 months ago we were in the process of staging an intervention because he was terribly addicted and doing anything he could to get it on a regular basis, but is staying off it now so that he can pass a drug test if he gets a job opportunity, which is great, but is now using the prescription pills whenever he can. He has many insecurities and thinks so badly of himself.
A bit of history on him... he was mostly homeschooled through elementary years, except an occasional try at public schools per his request, until he decided to go and stay in school in 6th grade. I had tried unschooling him early on after reading John Holt, but his dad was very against it so it didn't fly. So we muddled through homeschooling curriculum which I struggled with because it went against what I believed. Not an ideal situation! He was never happy in school, struggled to do the drudgery, but didn't want to homeschool either, he wanted to be with his friends. But, at the beginning of his junior year he came to me and said that he hadn't been going to class at all, he had no interest and didn't want to continue. I fully supported him in that, so he left school and got a job at the grocery store which he mostly enjoyed and did a great job there and met his now fiancé there. He has now been out of a job over a year and a half. He had decided he wanted something different, so he quit, then didn't get the job he wanted, and has been looking for another one since then. Just before he quit his job, he got his own car loan and bought a car, after he quit, I and his dad some, made his car and insurance payments for him, up until several months ago that is, we were struggling ourselves and couldn't keep his payments up along with ours, and any money he got, from odd jobs he did for friends, he would spend on drugs rather than put towards car payments. His car then got repossessed about a month ago. That was hard for him at first, but, he had been wanting to get rid of the car to get a cheap truck, so he ended up letting the bank keep the car and his dad helped him buy an inexpensive truck with no loan. He gave him the condition though that the truck was only to be driven to job interviews until he could pay for the insurance and the extra he owes on the repo'd car himself and he has to pay his dad back. He's not following that at all and drives the truck frequently, totally ignoring his dad.
I'm not sure of my specific question, and feel that I am leaving out alot. But, basically, I don't know how to help him. I also have 2 younger daughters, 15 and 11, they are very happily enjoying the unschooling that we embraced about a year ago, but, we are all sad that he didn't get to experience this and don't know what to do for him. He is terribly lost, doesn't know what he wants in life, gets very down, there have been several suicidal scares, he and his fiancé, whom we all love, fight often, he is very jealous and tries to control much of her life, who she sees, who her friends are. I know it stems from terribly insecurity. Some of that I'm sure comes from things he didn't get as a child from me, my inconsistencies. Much of that is from his dad. His dad loves him, but is not at all good at showing it to any of the kids. Just before he moved in with his dad, which was about 7 months after his dad moved out, he had told me that he was certain that dad didn't love him or give a shit about him at all...how awful for him to feel that way. Their dad was very disconnected from their lives, for all of their lives, very sad for all of them. But, his dad decided he wanted Cody to come live with him, and when I told my son that, his face lit up, hearing that his dad wanted him there meant the world to him. And, I know, moving out of a house full of girls was appealing too :-) Now, they still live together, but rarely see each other, it hasn't helped their relationship, basically Cody has the place to himself because his dad is out most of the time.
We have tried to get him help, counseling, drug treatment, we found a great counseling center that he liked, the counselor he met with was great, he connected with her, they offered personal counseling and classes in what he needed, but he didn't follow through.
Part of my problem is I find myself occasionally getting irritated that he's not trying very hard to get a job, spends much of the money he gets, even money we give him for food, on drugs or just spends it on little things. I'm struggling myself financially so it's hard to see money I need going for that. I know that attitude is not helping, only makes things worse, so I'm becoming more aware of what I think and how I act. Any advice would be appreciated. Thanks for listening so long!
Susan
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
susan burgess
I looked up the link you sent to Al Anon, and there are several meetings nearby that i will get myself to, and my daughters if they want to go, thank all of you for that recommendation.
--- I have found Al Anon to be a foundation philosophy for my life. In fact, all of the other ideas that I am pursuing or exploring like un-schooling work beautifully in tandem and harmony with what I learned in Al Anon.-----
That is very reassuring, I don't want people telling me things I need to do for him, or for myself, that go completely against my beliefs.
I'm going to set aside the drug issues, and even the depression and anxiety, that is off topic for this group and I will look to the other links that Meridith suggested, and keep that off this list -
I'm wondering if there is a way to start radically unschooling a child that has not had it in the past, has moved out of the home, and is struggling with finding his way, his passions. When you've got a child out of the house that spends his time either with his fiance, or closing himself off in his room, being bored, while we struggle to make his payments, supply him with food (of course) and gas, I feel that I'm maybe helping to keep him in this pattern of not doing anything. I've got people around me, some of them know nothing of his drug and depression issues, telling me that he needs "tough love", that I need to cut off all money to him if he's not working or trying to get a job, some even suggest kicking him out so that he has to start taking responsibility for himself! I do want him to start taking responsibility, I need that for our financial sake, but I don't know how the way my girls and I are living can translate to him outside the home. Any thoughts?
--- I have found Al Anon to be a foundation philosophy for my life. In fact, all of the other ideas that I am pursuing or exploring like un-schooling work beautifully in tandem and harmony with what I learned in Al Anon.-----
That is very reassuring, I don't want people telling me things I need to do for him, or for myself, that go completely against my beliefs.
I'm going to set aside the drug issues, and even the depression and anxiety, that is off topic for this group and I will look to the other links that Meridith suggested, and keep that off this list -
I'm wondering if there is a way to start radically unschooling a child that has not had it in the past, has moved out of the home, and is struggling with finding his way, his passions. When you've got a child out of the house that spends his time either with his fiance, or closing himself off in his room, being bored, while we struggle to make his payments, supply him with food (of course) and gas, I feel that I'm maybe helping to keep him in this pattern of not doing anything. I've got people around me, some of them know nothing of his drug and depression issues, telling me that he needs "tough love", that I need to cut off all money to him if he's not working or trying to get a job, some even suggest kicking him out so that he has to start taking responsibility for himself! I do want him to start taking responsibility, I need that for our financial sake, but I don't know how the way my girls and I are living can translate to him outside the home. Any thoughts?