jaimejamm

i'm so frustrated right now. i'm bordering between sending ds (9) to school or instilling limits again or just screaming my head off.

i don't want to do any of that! but what has happened to my kid??

the past few months he's been yelling at everyone (friends, us, family). if the smallest thing doesn't happen the way he wants it to or something isn't working, he says the whole world is out to get him (his actual words!). it's his way or no way. we'll make plans ahead of time that he's interested in but when the time comes to leave, he freaks out that he doesn't want to stop playing a computer game. he's been so sedentary lately. he sits for over 9 hours of the day! i worked for a chiro; i know that's not good for our bodies. he's even complaining of soreness in his shoulders but gets mad if anyone suggests taking a break.

everyone has been on edge. my head is bitten off all day long until i just can't keep myself together and have to leave the house or i'll explode. dh is a super mellow guy. he's only lost his patience half a dozen times in over a decade that i've known him - half of those times have been in the past cpl months. life sucks right now. :(

what's going on here?? please talk me off the edge of insanity. tell me this is a normal 9 year old phase or point me to something i can't see. i know there must be a need not being met or something internal going on. but he won't communicate with us anymore. i don't know what to do and i have no one else to talk to about it.

thanks mamas and papas,
jaime

Meredith

--- In [email protected], "jaimejamm" <jaimejamm@...> wrote:
>> the past few months he's been yelling at everyone (friends, us, family). if the smallest thing doesn't happen the way he wants it to or something isn't working, he says the whole world is out to get him (his actual words!).
***************************

How long since he left school? Has anything else changed recently? Its natural for some kids to have biiiiiiig emotional reactions, and if he's still deschooling, he may be just starting to explore those - explore the feelings he had to stuff down for school.

>>we'll make plans ahead of time that he's interested in but when the time comes to leave, he freaks out that he doesn't want to stop playing a computer game.
****************************

It sounds like he needs some help transitioning. Would he like more notice? Does he need help getting ready so all he has to do is save the game and go? Are you giving him plenty of time to get to a save point in a game? or the end of a game, if its short? Maybe he'd like a portable game to bring along, to help him transition.

While he's on the computer, what are you doing? Are you hanging out, seeing what he's up to, seeing if he needs a snack or a drink? Kids can get so wrapped up in projects that they forget to eat (adults too!) but it can be hard for parents to remember that games are projects of a kind. If he's hungry and thirsty, he's going to be more snappish and ill tempered in general.

>>he sits for over 9 hours of the day! i worked for a chiro; i know that's not good for our bodies. he's even complaining of soreness in his shoulders but gets mad if anyone suggests taking a break.
*****************************

What if you offer a backrub instead? Do things to help him be more comfortable now. Look into chairs that support better posture, or exercise balls - the kind that are big enough to sit on. Get him a simple book, maybe, like Yoga for Busy People - something with simple stretches that office workers can do. His games are serious business to him! You can support him without dooming him to poor posture and carpal tunnel, but to do that its not going to be helpful to say "take a break" - he doesn't want a break any more than an artist wants to take a break in the middle of a creative frenzy. Look at his behavior in *those* terms and see if it changes your perspective a little.

Once he feels supported, Then you can start asking him to use a kinder tone, ask him for help, that sort of thing. Right now, it sounds like his needs are too big, from his perspective, for him to be sympathetic to those around him.

---Meredith (Mo 7, Ray 15)

Joyce Fetteroll

On Jun 19, 2009, at 6:08 PM, jaimejamm wrote:

> the past few months he's been yelling at everyone (friends, us,
> family). if the smallest thing doesn't happen the way he wants it
> to or something isn't working, he says the whole world is out to
> get him (his actual words!).


Rather than letting those words fill you with anger and
defensiveness, see them as a cry of pain. What would it take for you
to behave like that? And would it help if people got frustrated and
angry with you?

He doesn't know how to let you know what's wrong.

> he's even complaining of soreness in his shoulders but gets mad if
> anyone suggests taking a break.
>

You see is a problem. Then you come up with a solution. Then you
impose the solution on him. When he refuses your solution, he then
becomes the problem.

Recognizing that process will help you break out of it. (And it's a
process that nearly every parent ends up trapped in.)

Involve him in the process of solving the problem. *Don't* decide on
the solution and try to lead him there. You could be wrong! (I'm not
saying you are, but it will help you brainstorm and problem solve
with him if you open yourself to the idea that there are many
solutions to problems and that there might be something better for
him than the one solution you want to hand to him.)

Don't put the burden of solving it on him. Engage him in the process.
Make him part of the solution.

Try this: don't offer a suggestion until you can think up at least
two! :-)

> the past few months he's been yelling at everyone (friends, us,
> family). if the smallest thing doesn't happen the way he wants it
> to or something isn't working, he says the whole world is out to
> get him (his actual words!). it's his way or no way. we'll make
> plans ahead of time that he's interested in but when the time comes
> to leave, he freaks out that he doesn't want to stop playing a
> computer game.
>

I think it might be easier to get a handle on the forest if you look
at more of the individual trees.

As some suggested, helping him with transitions will help.

He's also going through a deschooling phase and he's trying to cram
in as much of what he didn't have time for before as he can. Once he
feels like he can have it any time he wants, as much as he wants,
he'll slow down. If you put the controls back on, it will be worse
next time! Because then he'll have a legitimate fear that the limits
will return and he'll need to gorge before that.

So it isn't just one thing so that's why the help isn't being as
concrete as it could be. It's lots of things that are tangled up
together. If you can work on transitions, that might make other
things feel less out of control for him.

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

jaimejamm

> How long since he left school? Has anything else changed recently?

We've been unschooling for two years. Nothing has happened or changed recently. It seems similar to deschooling, and almost like he's stuck on repeat. He tells me all the time, that he hates when he explodes at someone but he can't control it. I understand that but it's hard to take all. the. time.


> It sounds like he needs some help transitioning.

He does need help with transitions. A "countdown" usually helps (telling him there is 30 min, then 15 min, then 5 until we start getting ready to leave) but sometimes it doesn't. A portable game may help. Thanks for that idea.

What I don't understand is why when it's the television of video games or anything else (except playing with friends!), he doesn't have the same transition trouble. It's computer games and friends. Maybe because he's more involved, enjoying himself more with those things?

> While he's on the computer, what are you doing?

We're usually in the same room, he shares what he's doing and I try ot stay involved as much as he wants (which sometimes is often and sometimes very little). I will admit, I'm very bad about snacks. I've been thinking about this recently. I have a very small appetite and it's easy for me to forget about snacks, and even delay meals. I'm working on it, I promise! ;)


> What if you offer a backrub instead? Do things to help him be more comfortable now. Look into chairs that support better posture, or exercise balls - the kind that are big enough to sit on. Get him a simple book, maybe, like Yoga for Busy People - something with simple stretches that office workers can do. His games are serious business to him! You can support him without dooming him to poor posture and carpal tunnel, but to do that its not going to be helpful to say "take a break" - he doesn't want a break any more than an artist wants to take a break in the middle of a creative frenzy. Look at his behavior in *those* terms and see if it changes your perspective a >>little.

We've talked about stretches, getting up and moving for a few minutes before sitting back down, sitting differently. Outside the situation he is open to the ideas. When he's getting sore and I mention it, it's a disruption he doesn't want. I know he's in the moment and I understand not wanting to interupt the flow. I feel the same way when I'm involved in something. But I'm flip-flopping between how much I should step in. How much direction does he need or at what point do I know he needs it?

>Right now, it sounds like his needs are too big, from his >perspective, for him to be sympathetic to those around him.

Yeah I know this is right. I feel like I'm just being drained of my own ability to manage his needs and outbursts. And then I feel selfish if I make too much time for myself, which lately I feel like I could take everyday. It's not like this when everything is flowing. Someone called me a "Highly Sensitive Person" although I don't see how being yelled at could not be overwhelming for anyone.

jaimejamm

> Rather than letting those words fill you with anger and
> defensiveness, see them as a cry of pain. What would it take for you
> to behave like that? And would it help if people got frustrated and
> angry with you?
>

How do you seperate yourself from those emotions though? His anger becomes my anger. His frustrations become mine. I ***totally know*** it's making whatever going on worse but I can't seem to seperate my reactions from his. does that many any sense?

> He doesn't know how to let you know what's wrong.
>


And I don't know how to help him. Or if he wants my help. I know where we are isn't good for anyone involved. I know I can't wave a wand and make it better. I just don't know what *to* do.


> You see is a problem. Then you come up with a solution. Then you
> impose the solution on him. When he refuses your solution, he then
> becomes the problem.
>
> Recognizing that process will help you break out of it. (And it's a
> process that nearly every parent ends up trapped in.)


I see that. We do problem solve together. He comes up with plenty of solutions. But in the moment when he turns down his own ideas, I do impose them out of frustration or need to save my own sanity. What else can I do in that moment when I'm about to lose it? Is it okay for me to walk away and let him figure it out? I feel like I'm leaving him to sink or swim if I do that.

We had a quiet moment to talk yesterday. I asked him what's going on and how he's been feeling. He says he's just angry and not happy lately but doesn't know why. I asked if there was something I could say or do in those moments that would help but he said he didn't know. Our talk didn't offer me much insight but at least it was a connection.

Pam Sorooshian

On 6/22/2009 3:09 PM, jaimejamm wrote:
> How do you seperate yourself from those emotions though?

This is SUCH a good question. Some people learn to do it so well -
others don't comprehend out how it is even possible. One young man I
know seems to me to have a remarkable ability to stay very cool, calm,
and collected under conditions that I think most people would explode in
anger. I asked him recently how he does it and he said, "I get out of my
emotions and think more intellectually as if I'm analyzing them (the
people who are unreasonable and rude and hurtful to him)." I asked him
how he does that and he said he literally imagines himself flipping a
switch in his brain.

I know that is kind of what I do when I'm at my best and able to stay
clear-headed when my kids are being extremely emotional. A trick that
has helped me in the past has been to imagine that one of the
unschooling moms I most admire is there with us - "What would so-and-so
do?" <G>

-pam

haecklers

What is the game he's playing? Could the content be affecting his behavior? Like, is he getting involved in a character who yells at people like that? Is he so addicted to the game that he's playing it late into the night and not sleeping enough? Is the game frustrating him so that he takes it out on you when you interrupt what he's doing?
Maybe he needs more time to play it so he can either reach whatever goal he has in the game or get so saturated he wants to move on to another activity.

I don't know how you feel about letting a 9 year old stay home alone while you run short errands.

Kids imitate behaviors they see others do, especially if they find the behavior shocking or out of character with how they are used to people acting. Is there someone he knows who acts this way and he's trying it out?

If he doesn't realize it's upsetting to you, do you think there is a way to record it and then look at it together so you can each talk about how you felt during the episode?

I believe that sometimes we need to model the behavior we want our kids to grow into. How would you want him to respond if someone yelled at him like that?

Don't feel bad about needing extra time for yourself when the kids are getting difficult. How else can you maintain your sanity? I get up early to enjoy peace and quiet (but then again I'm a morning person). Sometimes during the day if it's been particularly rough I'll ask for some family quiet time while my emotions calm back down. We've discussed how getting upset releases chemicals in the body and it takes time for them to go away again, and during that time you get more upset if they keep getting triggered, so 15 min. of quiet time can be needed to get back to normal again.

Sometimes people have food sensitivities that throw off their body chemistry and make them irritable. I find when I cut out certain foods I am much more even emotionally. Maybe something he's eating is bothering him physically. My daughter used to have a list of things that would set her off but now it's down to pretty much gummi candy. Often the food they're sensitive to is the one they eat addictively or at least daily (for me it's chocolate!). Of course getting other people to see they have an unhealthy reaction to a food they love is almost impossible, so that may be a waste of your time.

Regards,
Renate


--- In [email protected], "jaimejamm" <jaimejamm@...> wrote:
>
>
> > How long since he left school? Has anything else changed recently?
>
> We've been unschooling for two years. Nothing has happened or changed recently. It seems similar to deschooling, and almost like he's stuck on repeat. He tells me all the time, that he hates when he explodes at someone but he can't control it. I understand that but it's hard to take all. the. time.
>
>
> > It sounds like he needs some help transitioning.
>
> He does need help with transitions. A "countdown" usually helps (telling him there is 30 min, then 15 min, then 5 until we start getting ready to leave) but sometimes it doesn't. A portable game may help. Thanks for that idea.
>
> What I don't understand is why when it's the television of video games or anything else (except playing with friends!), he doesn't have the same transition trouble. It's computer games and friends. Maybe because he's more involved, enjoying himself more with those things?
>
> > While he's on the computer, what are you doing?
>
> We're usually in the same room, he shares what he's doing and I try ot stay involved as much as he wants (which sometimes is often and sometimes very little). I will admit, I'm very bad about snacks. I've been thinking about this recently. I have a very small appetite and it's easy for me to forget about snacks, and even delay meals. I'm working on it, I promise! ;)
>
>
> > What if you offer a backrub instead? Do things to help him be more comfortable now. Look into chairs that support better posture, or exercise balls - the kind that are big enough to sit on. Get him a simple book, maybe, like Yoga for Busy People - something with simple stretches that office workers can do. His games are serious business to him! You can support him without dooming him to poor posture and carpal tunnel, but to do that its not going to be helpful to say "take a break" - he doesn't want a break any more than an artist wants to take a break in the middle of a creative frenzy. Look at his behavior in *those* terms and see if it changes your perspective a >>little.
>
> We've talked about stretches, getting up and moving for a few minutes before sitting back down, sitting differently. Outside the situation he is open to the ideas. When he's getting sore and I mention it, it's a disruption he doesn't want. I know he's in the moment and I understand not wanting to interupt the flow. I feel the same way when I'm involved in something. But I'm flip-flopping between how much I should step in. How much direction does he need or at what point do I know he needs it?
>
> >Right now, it sounds like his needs are too big, from his >perspective, for him to be sympathetic to those around him.
>
> Yeah I know this is right. I feel like I'm just being drained of my own ability to manage his needs and outbursts. And then I feel selfish if I make too much time for myself, which lately I feel like I could take everyday. It's not like this when everything is flowing. Someone called me a "Highly Sensitive Person" although I don't see how being yelled at could not be overwhelming for anyone.
>

swissarmy_wife

--- In [email protected], "haecklers" <haecklers@...> wrote:

> I believe that sometimes we need to model the behavior we want our kids to grow into. How would you want him to respond if someone yelled at him like that?

******Here is that word again. Modeling. I wrote a blog about this recently.

http://www.swissarmywife.net/2009/05/what-are-you-modeling.html

Heather
www.swissarmywife.net
========================================================================

swissarmy_wife

--- In [email protected], "haecklers" <haecklers@...> wrote:

> If he doesn't realize it's upsetting to you, do you think there is a way to record it and then look at it together so you can each talk about how you felt during the episode?

******How would YOU feel if someone recorded you in a moment of frustration? Seriously. HOW would you feel?

Frustration happens. Frustration is a natural part of life. What is more important is honoring that your child is frustrated and moving on from there. Sometimes he may want to be left alone. Some children may need a hug. Some others may need food. All children are different. It wouldn't do a bit of good to explain to MY frustrated child how they are hurting me. So I choose to give love and support rather than take it personally.

Heather
www.swissarmywife.net
========================================================================

Schuyler

It won't help people to scare them with the idea of addiction. Addiction is bandied about so readily to explain a child's passion and it is derogatory and it is rude. It will help a lot more to look for ways of helping a child if you don't decide that what they they spend so much time doing they are doing because they are addicted to it instead of being something they love to do.

To the original poster, you wrote:
> We've talked about stretches, getting up and moving for a few
minutes before sitting back down, sitting differently. Outside the
situation he is open to the ideas. When he's getting sore and I mention
it, it's a disruption he doesn't want. I know he's in the moment and I
understand not wanting to interupt the flow. I feel the same way when
I'm involved in something. But I'm flip-flopping between how much I
should step in. How much direction does he need or at what point do I
know he needs it?

What about when he says "I'm stiff, or "my neck hurts" you sit behind him and ask if he'd like a shoulder rub. Get some icy-hot or tiger balm or something slightly mentholated and warming and rub his shoulders and ask him, gently, about the game that he's playing. Don't interrupt his game to solve the problem you see, help to be part of the solution. We have socks that are filled with rice and a few cloves for scent that can be microwaved for about a minute or a minute and a half and they are lovely to put on a sore neck or shoulders. You could make one of those to use when your son complains of stiffness. You could just empathize, don't solve it, maybe say something like "yeah, sometimes when I sit for too long I get a sore neck too." But I wouldn't do that when he's playing the game. Only offer him assistance then, give him the gift of a massage or a hot pad, not the information about what to do.

Schuyler




________________________________
From: haecklers <haecklers@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tuesday, 23 June, 2009 1:02:18 PM
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: on the edge

What is the game he's playing? Could the content be affecting his behavior? Like, is he getting involved in a character who yells at people like that? Is he so addicted to the game that he's playing it late into the night and not sleeping enough? Is the game frustrating him so that he takes it out on you when you interrupt what he's doing?
Maybe he needs more time to play it so he can either reach whatever goal he has in the game or get so saturated he wants to move on to another activity.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Meredith

--- In [email protected], "jaimejamm" <jaimejamm@...> wrote:
>Maybe because he's more involved, enjoying himself more with those things?

It could be that those things engage him more fully than other things, or engage cerain parts of his mind/personality more than other things. Somethings are easy for me to transition away from, others hard. Writing is something I have a hard time transitioning away from, I've discovered. And the more stress I'm under, the harder it is. So if I'm tired, hungry, hot and need to pee I'm going to be (somewhat ironically) really cranky about walking away from the computer!

>>I'm very bad about snacks. I've been thinking about this recently. I have a very small appetite and it's easy for me to forget about snacks, and even delay meals. I'm working on it, I promise! ;)
*************************

Mo goes through stages where she's really independent about getting herself snacks before she's snappishly hungry - and other stages where she's more focused on what she's doing and forgets to eat. So being good about snacks is something George and I both struggle with, to some extent, bc Mo's not consistent in her needs. What I've found helpful is to create a sort of schedule for myself to bring her food at intervals - I'll plan my day around bringing snacks. I also have a mental trick I use, kind of like the old fashioned string tied around the finger. I "tie" an idea to something. So, maybe I'll tie the idea of snacks to my glasses. Every time I fiddle with my glasses, I'll think "snacks for Mo".

>> I know he's in the moment and I understand not wanting to interupt the flow. I feel the same way when I'm involved in something. But I'm flip-flopping between how much I should step in. How much direction does he need or at what point do I know he needs it?
****************************

Its great that you can relate to what he's feeling! In the moment, if someone were interupting you, trying to be helpful, would it *seem* that way to you? Would you be glad, or defensive and irritable? "Giving direction" won't help if it sets up resistance.

Otoh, you can talk with him, outside the moment, about possible avenues to explore. Would he like a timer to remind him to get up and stretch? With a game, it would probably be better to do at a save point - that's something to talk about, too. What does he think about taking a break every time he "levels up"? Whatever you do, try it as an experiment, something you can drop it doesn't seem to be working - you're not setting a rule, you're trying out a new strategy together.

>>Someone called me a "Highly Sensitive Person" although I don't see how being yelled at could not be overwhelming for anyone.
*********************

Some people are less sensitive to being yelled at, though. To some extent, its a matter of how much of it you take, personally. I learned to let a whole lot of other people's "stuff" roll right off me, when I worked retail - its a valuable skill to learn! But I also have to remind myself to apply some of that skill to my family. If *I'm* upset, too, I can't help anyone. Its harder with my family, though. I *am* more sensitive to all of them.

If you aren't used to doing that, you might find Naomi Aldort's *Raising our children, raising ourselves* helpful.

---Meredith (Mo 7, Ray 15)

Meredith

--- In [email protected], "Rod Thomas" <rodneykathy@...> wrote:
>
> Do you blog?

Not as much as I write here, or on Always Unschooled. I tend to write best with a "starting point" and questions are good for that.
---Meredith

Rod Thomas

Do you blog?



kathy



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