pushing vs. allowing interests
DJ250
I have a friend who's interested in unschooling but feels that her rather shy daughter would not have varied interests if she hadn't pushed her at certain times. She likes horses, for ex., but Mom pushed her to try a 4-H horse competition which the kid found she rather liked after doing it. Mom says she wouldn't have so much knowledge about horses now and wouldn't have found out she enjoyed such a class if she hadn't been pushed a bit to do it. She feels it's human nature to go the easy route instead of trying things that are tough. She said when she was growing up maybe if someone had pushed her more to take tougher science classes, she would have become a vet. She knows of people who perused the college catalogues, saying "Hmm, what are the easiest classes to take." I gave my own response, of course, just wanted to hear others' opinions.
~Melissa, in MD :)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
~Melissa, in MD :)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
juillet727
--- In [email protected], "DJ250" <dj250@...> wrote:
I think the 1st sentence is schooly thinking though.
I knew people who did the "what's the easiest class" thing too. But they weren't going to college for themselves--they were doing it because it was expected of them, it was what they'd always done.
When people *want* to learn about something, they do it--hopefully. And ease or difficulty doesn't much come into play with that decision. I think with your friend's daughter, she wanted to do the horse thing enough, so she did, and enjoyed it.
I don't think there's a set answer to whether to push or allow interests, of course--it's not "all push" or "all allow". I was an extremely shy kid and I was always pushed to do things and hated it. But I didn't have the support going into something. Things were brought to me in a "What's the problem? You'll love it." kind of style, but I didn't have the temperament for being dropped off to fend for myself, I needed more support than that.
My son (9) can be quite shy and needs me to be around when he's doing new things. Often I will bring stuff to his attention--a new opportunity that sounds fun to me--recently it was an ATC trade in our local community. And there are 2 5-week children's classes in theater and dance at our local college and he's loving those. But he knows that we would stop if he hated them or if the instruction wasn't a good fit. I think that makes a big difference. I'm not just going to sign him up and make him do it. With regards to classes I have to make sure we get there really early so he can feel the vibe of the class and make sure it's what he wants.
But I'm constantly on the lookout for fun things to do or make happen in our lives. Nowadays if I see an opportunity that he's not interested in, I'm starting to think, "Well, I'm interested in this, how can I make this happen for me?"
~Juillet
>***************************
>...She feels it's human nature to go the easy route instead of trying things that are tough.
>...She knows of people who perused the college catalogues, saying "Hmm, what are the easiest classes to take." .
I think the 1st sentence is schooly thinking though.
I knew people who did the "what's the easiest class" thing too. But they weren't going to college for themselves--they were doing it because it was expected of them, it was what they'd always done.
When people *want* to learn about something, they do it--hopefully. And ease or difficulty doesn't much come into play with that decision. I think with your friend's daughter, she wanted to do the horse thing enough, so she did, and enjoyed it.
I don't think there's a set answer to whether to push or allow interests, of course--it's not "all push" or "all allow". I was an extremely shy kid and I was always pushed to do things and hated it. But I didn't have the support going into something. Things were brought to me in a "What's the problem? You'll love it." kind of style, but I didn't have the temperament for being dropped off to fend for myself, I needed more support than that.
My son (9) can be quite shy and needs me to be around when he's doing new things. Often I will bring stuff to his attention--a new opportunity that sounds fun to me--recently it was an ATC trade in our local community. And there are 2 5-week children's classes in theater and dance at our local college and he's loving those. But he knows that we would stop if he hated them or if the instruction wasn't a good fit. I think that makes a big difference. I'm not just going to sign him up and make him do it. With regards to classes I have to make sure we get there really early so he can feel the vibe of the class and make sure it's what he wants.
But I'm constantly on the lookout for fun things to do or make happen in our lives. Nowadays if I see an opportunity that he's not interested in, I'm starting to think, "Well, I'm interested in this, how can I make this happen for me?"
~Juillet
DJ250
Thanks! Clarification: she doesn't drop her off to fend for herself, she always stays with her and says "let's try it". My response to her was that maybe SHE could be the one to say "Hey, there 's this horse class I'd like to check out. Come with me, eh?".
~Melissa, in MD
~Melissa, in MD
----- Original Message -----
From: juillet727
To: [email protected]
Sent: Saturday, May 09, 2009 5:14 PM
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: pushing vs. allowing interests
--- In [email protected], "DJ250" <dj250@...> wrote:
>
>...She feels it's human nature to go the easy route instead of trying things that are tough.
>...She knows of people who perused the college catalogues, saying "Hmm, what are the easiest classes to take." .
***************************
I think the 1st sentence is schooly thinking though.
I knew people who did the "what's the easiest class" thing too. But they weren't going to college for themselves--they were doing it because it was expected of them, it was what they'd always done.
When people *want* to learn about something, they do it--hopefully. And ease or difficulty doesn't much come into play with that decision. I think with your friend's daughter, she wanted to do the horse thing enough, so she did, and enjoyed it.
I don't think there's a set answer to whether to push or allow interests, of course--it's not "all push" or "all allow". I was an extremely shy kid and I was always pushed to do things and hated it. But I didn't have the support going into something. Things were brought to me in a "What's the problem? You'll love it." kind of style, but I didn't have the temperament for being dropped off to fend for myself, I needed more support than that.
My son (9) can be quite shy and needs me to be around when he's doing new things. Often I will bring stuff to his attention--a new opportunity that sounds fun to me--recently it was an ATC trade in our local community. And there are 2 5-week children's classes in theater and dance at our local college and he's loving those. But he knows that we would stop if he hated them or if the instruction wasn't a good fit. I think that makes a big difference. I'm not just going to sign him up and make him do it. With regards to classes I have to make sure we get there really early so he can feel the vibe of the class and make sure it's what he wants.
But I'm constantly on the lookout for fun things to do or make happen in our lives. Nowadays if I see an opportunity that he's not interested in, I'm starting to think, "Well, I'm interested in this, how can I make this happen for me?"
~Juillet
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N CONFER
She said when she was growing up maybe if someone had pushed her more to take tougher science classes, she would have become a vet.
*********
So now her daughter has to live out her dreams for her? If she wants to be a vet, she could go be one now. Let her daughter find her own path.
Nance
*********
So now her daughter has to live out her dreams for her? If she wants to be a vet, she could go be one now. Let her daughter find her own path.
Nance
Verna
I think there is a difference between encouraging and pushing. I might encourage a child to try something they otherwise might not think they would like, or is shy about trying. But pushing, to me, seems more like insisting that they try or do it. And honestly, if i tried to push my kids to do anything. They would dig their feet in for all its worth.
Joyce Fetteroll
On May 9, 2009, at 1:26 PM, DJ250 wrote:
There are adults who were pushed through music by well meaning
parents who are grateful for the pushing.
There are adults who were pushed through music by well meaning
parents who have so wrapped the memories of coercion and tears and
powerlessness around music that they want nothing to do with music.
(Music can be filled in with anything: basketball, cleaning up,
writing, math, horses ...)
Both shed tears and complained, so how does a parent know what the
outcome will be? Unfortunately we so want to give kids all the
advantages that the stories of people who are grateful they were
pushed, the times when our kids find happiness in something we pushed
them into, loom larger than the far more common stories of people who
avoid what they were pushed through.
How many people were forced through 12 years of math and hate it? How
many love it?
So, are the only two options pushing while praying or not pushing?
No. But this is a slippery slope because helping kids past the humps
can end up being pushing. So, the first idea to examine is that each
time we push, we run the risk of the child deciding they need someone
else to push them, that they can't move past the difficulties on
their own.
It will be also helpful to keep in mind that you could be wrong. It
might be the worst thing for that child. And you'll be helping your
child with another life skill by letting them assess and decide if
it's right. Each time they decide, they learn a bit more about
themselves.
So, with that in mind, I'd talk it over with the child. *Don't* begin
with the idea of convincing them they should let you push them since
you feel it's a good idea for them. Listen to them. How do they feel
with they're
the other things would have been something she liked even better. Or
not.
The point is that there are a million choices we can make, a million
things we could get interested in. Everytime we focus on one, there's
nearly a million others we're not choosing. We can't ever know we've
found the ultimate, best thing. But having the freedom to choose and
explore is even better than certaint.
mother is deciding on the value and that the pushing yielded
something the mom values.
The focus should be on the child. What does the child want? We know
less what the child wants, less about who the child is -- the child
knows less! -- the less we listen and the more we push.
My daughter Kat's a very good distance runner and loves running. She
joined the school cross country team. My husband loves running too
and was on the same team when he was in high school. He loves
competition. Not one of those rabid beat 'em types, but he gets
jazzed setting up goals for himself. He tried to help her train to
beat the cream of the crop. (Not a huge stretch since she's a natural
at it.) At first she enjoyed it. But as she continued, she started to
realize the goal of beating someone (and the possibility of failure)
didn't float her boat. She just loved to run. It was hard for Carl to
even grasp the idea of not caring about competing and there was a lot
of strain until he finally accepted that someone could have great
talent but want to do something other than what he'd do with it.
and resources.
It's also human nature to pour energy into what we find fascinating.
If someone is made to climb a mountain, they'll find the easiest
path, and perhaps even cheat.
If someone desires to climb a mountain, they may even make it more
difficult -- challenging -- for themselves if the route doesn't light
their fire.
If it were human nature to go the easy route, I wouldn't be sitting
here writing out a response! No one would write a novel. No one would
climb Mt. Everest. No one would bake a cherry pie from scratch. No
one would have kids ;-)
responsibility.
That sounds harsh and judgmental. It's meant as a universal truth.
When we decide we aren't capable of something and feel that we can't
accomplish something unless someone else uses their power over us to
make us, we can absolve ourselves of failure. It's not our fault we
aren't doing x. It's other people's fault for not pushing us, or not
clearing the way for us.
A far more useful life skill for kids is knowing they can do whatever
they set their minds to. That trumps a knowledge of horses or guitar
skills or ability to spell or whatever someone's personal need is.
While it would be *easier* if her parents had pressured science on
her. (*And* she had liked it.) Now, not being a vet isn't their
responsibility. It's hers. She'd be living the idea that you can do
anything you put your mind to if she decided to become a vet right
now rather than modeling that you can blame your failures on others.
For a shy child, it would be far more valuable for mom to help her
find ways the daughter can use to get past the humps to do the things
the daughter wants to do. If the daughter gets the idea she needs the
mom to push her, she could end up at 20+ wishing her mom had pushed
her in science so she could be a vet.
through, why wouldn't they choose the easiest route? It isn't until
school change to be relevant to people's lives, it isn't until a
college degree isn't seen as the key to success, that kids won't be
choosing for expediency's sake.
When college is seen as one option to explore what fascinates you,
then interest will be the determining factor in choosing courses.
That's what will carry over from living a life exploring what
fascinates you.
Joyce
> I have a friend who's interested in unschooling but feels that herQuite possibly.
> rather shy daughter would not have varied interests if she hadn't
> pushed her at certain times.
There are adults who were pushed through music by well meaning
parents who are grateful for the pushing.
There are adults who were pushed through music by well meaning
parents who have so wrapped the memories of coercion and tears and
powerlessness around music that they want nothing to do with music.
(Music can be filled in with anything: basketball, cleaning up,
writing, math, horses ...)
Both shed tears and complained, so how does a parent know what the
outcome will be? Unfortunately we so want to give kids all the
advantages that the stories of people who are grateful they were
pushed, the times when our kids find happiness in something we pushed
them into, loom larger than the far more common stories of people who
avoid what they were pushed through.
How many people were forced through 12 years of math and hate it? How
many love it?
So, are the only two options pushing while praying or not pushing?
No. But this is a slippery slope because helping kids past the humps
can end up being pushing. So, the first idea to examine is that each
time we push, we run the risk of the child deciding they need someone
else to push them, that they can't move past the difficulties on
their own.
It will be also helpful to keep in mind that you could be wrong. It
might be the worst thing for that child. And you'll be helping your
child with another life skill by letting them assess and decide if
it's right. Each time they decide, they learn a bit more about
themselves.
So, with that in mind, I'd talk it over with the child. *Don't* begin
with the idea of convincing them they should let you push them since
you feel it's a good idea for them. Listen to them. How do they feel
with they're
> Mom pushed her to try a 4-H horse competition which the kid foundAnd while she pursued that she was not pursuing something else. Maybe
> she rather liked after doing it.
the other things would have been something she liked even better. Or
not.
The point is that there are a million choices we can make, a million
things we could get interested in. Everytime we focus on one, there's
nearly a million others we're not choosing. We can't ever know we've
found the ultimate, best thing. But having the freedom to choose and
explore is even better than certaint.
> Mom says she wouldn't have so much knowledge about horses now andThe daughter might even agree. But the most important thing is the
> wouldn't have found out she enjoyed such a class if she hadn't been
> pushed a bit to do it.
mother is deciding on the value and that the pushing yielded
something the mom values.
The focus should be on the child. What does the child want? We know
less what the child wants, less about who the child is -- the child
knows less! -- the less we listen and the more we push.
My daughter Kat's a very good distance runner and loves running. She
joined the school cross country team. My husband loves running too
and was on the same team when he was in high school. He loves
competition. Not one of those rabid beat 'em types, but he gets
jazzed setting up goals for himself. He tried to help her train to
beat the cream of the crop. (Not a huge stretch since she's a natural
at it.) At first she enjoyed it. But as she continued, she started to
realize the goal of beating someone (and the possibility of failure)
didn't float her boat. She just loved to run. It was hard for Carl to
even grasp the idea of not caring about competing and there was a lot
of strain until he finally accepted that someone could have great
talent but want to do something other than what he'd do with it.
> She feels it's human nature to go the easy route instead of tryingIt's human nature to avoid what we feel is a waste of time, energy
> things that are tough.
and resources.
It's also human nature to pour energy into what we find fascinating.
If someone is made to climb a mountain, they'll find the easiest
path, and perhaps even cheat.
If someone desires to climb a mountain, they may even make it more
difficult -- challenging -- for themselves if the route doesn't light
their fire.
If it were human nature to go the easy route, I wouldn't be sitting
here writing out a response! No one would write a novel. No one would
climb Mt. Everest. No one would bake a cherry pie from scratch. No
one would have kids ;-)
> She said when she was growing up maybe if someone had pushed herIt's much easier to blame others for our failures than to accept
> more to take tougher science classes, she would have become a vet.
responsibility.
That sounds harsh and judgmental. It's meant as a universal truth.
When we decide we aren't capable of something and feel that we can't
accomplish something unless someone else uses their power over us to
make us, we can absolve ourselves of failure. It's not our fault we
aren't doing x. It's other people's fault for not pushing us, or not
clearing the way for us.
A far more useful life skill for kids is knowing they can do whatever
they set their minds to. That trumps a knowledge of horses or guitar
skills or ability to spell or whatever someone's personal need is.
While it would be *easier* if her parents had pressured science on
her. (*And* she had liked it.) Now, not being a vet isn't their
responsibility. It's hers. She'd be living the idea that you can do
anything you put your mind to if she decided to become a vet right
now rather than modeling that you can blame your failures on others.
For a shy child, it would be far more valuable for mom to help her
find ways the daughter can use to get past the humps to do the things
the daughter wants to do. If the daughter gets the idea she needs the
mom to push her, she could end up at 20+ wishing her mom had pushed
her in science so she could be a vet.
> She knows of people who perused the college catalogues, sayingWhen college is seen as another hoop they're pressured to jump
> "Hmm, what are the easiest classes to take."
through, why wouldn't they choose the easiest route? It isn't until
school change to be relevant to people's lives, it isn't until a
college degree isn't seen as the key to success, that kids won't be
choosing for expediency's sake.
When college is seen as one option to explore what fascinates you,
then interest will be the determining factor in choosing courses.
That's what will carry over from living a life exploring what
fascinates you.
Joyce
Ren Allen
--- In [email protected], N CONFER <marbleface@...> wrote:
Ren
radicalunschooling.blogspot.com
>I think that is such a typical response from a person who was raised with coercion. You blame someone else for your perceived failures and/or give someone else credit for your "success". I think if more people took responsibility for their own choices and lives this would be a better world. The only way to get to more responsibility and more healthy choice, is to stop taking that power away from children and let them USE their freewill enough to learn how to trust that inner voice.
>
> She said when she was growing up maybe if someone had pushed her more to take tougher science classes, she would have become a vet.
>
Ren
radicalunschooling.blogspot.com
Ren Allen
--- In [email protected], N CONFER <marbleface@...> wrote:
Ren
radicalunschooling.blogspot.com
>I think that is such a typical response from a person who was raised with coercion. You blame someone else for your perceived failures and/or give someone else credit for your "success". I think if more people took responsibility for their own choices and lives this would be a better world. The only way to get to more responsibility and more healthy choice, is to stop taking that power away from children and let them USE their freewill enough to learn how to trust that inner voice.
>
> She said when she was growing up maybe if someone had pushed her more to take tougher science classes, she would have become a vet.
>
Ren
radicalunschooling.blogspot.com
Ren Allen
--- In [email protected], N CONFER <marbleface@...> wrote:
Ren
radicalunschooling.blogspot.com
>My other thought on this is that if she REALLY wanted to be a vet, what's stopping her? It's a cop out. Woulda, coulda, shoulda right? We make the life we choose for the most part. Nobody can stop you from becoming a vet if that's what you really want...or anything else.
>
> She said when she was growing up maybe if someone had pushed her more to take tougher science classes, she would have become a vet.
>
Ren
radicalunschooling.blogspot.com
Ren Allen
> If someone desires to climb a mountain, they may even make it moreI had a conversation about this very topic up at ARGH in March. I would love to just copy and paste your whole post to my blog if you don't mind Joyce.:)
> difficult -- challenging -- for themselves if the route doesn't light
> their fire.
>
> If it were human nature to go the easy route, I wouldn't be sitting
> here writing out a response! No one would write a novel. No one would
> climb Mt. Everest. No one would bake a cherry pie from scratch. No
> one would have kids ;-)
>
Ren
radicalunschooling.blogspot.com
>
Joyce Fetteroll
On May 10, 2009, at 1:05 PM, Ren Allen wrote:
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> I had a conversation about this very topic up at ARGH in March. IAbsolutely :-)
> would love to just copy and paste your whole post to my blog if you
> don't mind Joyce.:)
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
DJ250
No, it's not that she wants her child to be a vet, it's that she feels that whatever her kid will be it will have probably helped if she got pushed to work harder, I guess.
~M
~M
----- Original Message -----
From: N CONFER
To: [email protected]
Sent: Sunday, May 10, 2009 9:19 AM
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re:pushing vs. allowing interests
She said when she was growing up maybe if someone had pushed her more to take tougher science classes, she would have become a vet.
*********
So now her daughter has to live out her dreams for her? If she wants to be a vet, she could go be one now. Let her daughter find her own path.
Nance
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
N CONFER
And that would be a much better example to her daughter than pushing her into a career -- vet or anything else.
Mom should stop trying to overcorrect for the mistakes she perceives her parents made and figure out how she really wants to live.
Nance
Mom should stop trying to overcorrect for the mistakes she perceives her parents made and figure out how she really wants to live.
Nance
--- In unschoolingbasics@ yahoogroups. com, N CONFER <marbleface@ ...> wrote:
>
>
> She said when she was growing up maybe if someone had pushed her more to take tougher science classes, she would have become a vet.
>
My other thought on this is that if she REALLY wanted to be a vet, what's stopping her? It's a cop out. Woulda, coulda, shoulda right? We make the life we choose for the most part. Nobody can stop you from becoming a vet if that's what you really want...or anything else.
Ren
radicalunschooling. blogspot. com
AHMAD MALLAH
As a young girl, it was hard for me to make decisions and somehow, still it is; nonetheless, here I am, homeschooling my 3 kids without being pushed to do it. And believe me, I know people that are very confident in life, but they lack confidence to start homeschooling (a friend of mine would like to, but is afraid of it)
Amelia
Amelia
--- On Mon, 5/11/09, N CONFER <marbleface@...> wrote:
From: N CONFER <marbleface@...>
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re:pushing vs. allowing interests
To: [email protected]
Date: Monday, May 11, 2009, 7:53 AM
And that would be a much better example to her daughter than pushing her into a career -- vet or anything else.
Mom should stop trying to overcorrect for the mistakes she perceives her parents made and figure out how she really wants to live.
Nance
--- In unschoolingbasics@ yahoogroups. com, N CONFER <marbleface@ ...> wrote:
>
>
> She said when she was growing up maybe if someone had pushed her more to take tougher science classes, she would have become a vet.
>
My other thought on this is that if she REALLY wanted to be a vet, what's stopping her? It's a cop out. Woulda, coulda, shoulda right? We make the life we choose for the most part. Nobody can stop you from becoming a vet if that's what you really want...or anything else.
Ren
radicalunschooling. blogspot. com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Carolyn
I've been following this thread with interest...thinking back to my own childhood/youth/teen years. I was involved in theater/music from a young age (6 or so) and in plays/musicals/ensembles/choirs/show choirs/madrigals all through my elementary-middle-high-school years and college.
I was fortunate that my parents paid for me to attend theater camps and take voice lessons...but they never insisted I practice, or pushed me hard to "make the most of my talent". They always said I could be whatever I wanted to be -- but that life's too short to not enjoy it.
There was a time, in my early 20s, shortly after college (where I got a concentration in theater) when I wasn't sure what I wanted to do with my life and I felt that maybe if my parents had pushed me more I would have done more with my talent...gone on to get an MFA, been on Broadway, etc...but as I think on it, I realize that I would have just ended up resenting them and stepping away from theater and music. I realize now that if I had gone that route (MFA, Broadway, whatever) I wouldn't have discovered my other passion for libraries & become a librarian (currently not a working librarian...but still...) I also wouldn't have met my wonderful husband and become mother to Sabine and Vivian.
Music/performing is still a big part of my life, I've done it professionally and just for fun -- but knowing that it's MY choice, and that I'm doing it because I enjoy it (not because my parents expect it since they paid for classes to help me follow my interest) makes it all the more fulfilling and special.
And who says I still can't go on to get my MFA/be on Broadway? You never know... :)
Carolyn Winkler
wahoowinklers.blogspot.com
Re: pushing vs. allowing interests
Posted by: "DJ250" dj250@... wibberbie
Sun May 10, 2009 3:28 pm (PDT)
No, it's not that she wants her child to be a vet, it's that she feels that whatever her kid will be it will have probably helped if she got pushed to work harder, I guess.
I was fortunate that my parents paid for me to attend theater camps and take voice lessons...but they never insisted I practice, or pushed me hard to "make the most of my talent". They always said I could be whatever I wanted to be -- but that life's too short to not enjoy it.
There was a time, in my early 20s, shortly after college (where I got a concentration in theater) when I wasn't sure what I wanted to do with my life and I felt that maybe if my parents had pushed me more I would have done more with my talent...gone on to get an MFA, been on Broadway, etc...but as I think on it, I realize that I would have just ended up resenting them and stepping away from theater and music. I realize now that if I had gone that route (MFA, Broadway, whatever) I wouldn't have discovered my other passion for libraries & become a librarian (currently not a working librarian...but still...) I also wouldn't have met my wonderful husband and become mother to Sabine and Vivian.
Music/performing is still a big part of my life, I've done it professionally and just for fun -- but knowing that it's MY choice, and that I'm doing it because I enjoy it (not because my parents expect it since they paid for classes to help me follow my interest) makes it all the more fulfilling and special.
And who says I still can't go on to get my MFA/be on Broadway? You never know... :)
Carolyn Winkler
wahoowinklers.blogspot.com
Re: pushing vs. allowing interests
Posted by: "DJ250" dj250@... wibberbie
Sun May 10, 2009 3:28 pm (PDT)
No, it's not that she wants her child to be a vet, it's that she feels that whatever her kid will be it will have probably helped if she got pushed to work harder, I guess.
[email protected]
> She feels it's human nature to go the easy route instead of trying >I once heard Michel Petrucciani (who became an amazing jazz pianist despite
> things that are tough.
> It's human nature to avoid what we feel is a waste of time, energy >
> and resources.
> It's also human nature to pour energy into what we find fascinating.>
multiple disabilities brought on by brittle bones) say that talent in
music often comes down to the difference between (a) having to be reminded to
practice and (b) having to be reminded to lay off practice for a while. I
guess, once again, you could substitute any other activity for music in
that statement.
Jude x
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
dana_burdick
This is just lovely Joyce - Articulate as ever. I'd love to see this one added to your website. (hint, hint) <G>
-Dana B
-Dana B
--- In [email protected], Joyce Fetteroll <jfetteroll@...> wrote:
>
>
> On May 9, 2009, at 1:26 PM, DJ250 wrote:
> > I have a friend who's interested in unschooling but feels that her
> > rather shy daughter would not have varied interests if she hadn't
> > pushed her at certain times.
>
>
> Quite possibly.
>
> There are adults who were pushed through music by well meaning
> parents who are grateful for the pushing.
>
> There are adults who were pushed through music by well meaning
> parents who have so wrapped the memories of coercion and tears and
> powerlessness around music that they want nothing to do with music.
>
> (Music can be filled in with anything: basketball, cleaning up,
> writing, math, horses ...)
>
> Both shed tears and complained, so how does a parent know what the
> outcome will be? Unfortunately we so want to give kids all the
> advantages that the stories of people who are grateful they were
> pushed, the times when our kids find happiness in something we pushed
> them into, loom larger than the far more common stories of people who
> avoid what they were pushed through.
>
> How many people were forced through 12 years of math and hate it? How
> many love it?
>
> So, are the only two options pushing while praying or not pushing?
>
> No. But this is a slippery slope because helping kids past the humps
> can end up being pushing. So, the first idea to examine is that each
> time we push, we run the risk of the child deciding they need someone
> else to push them, that they can't move past the difficulties on
> their own.
>
> It will be also helpful to keep in mind that you could be wrong. It
> might be the worst thing for that child. And you'll be helping your
> child with another life skill by letting them assess and decide if
> it's right. Each time they decide, they learn a bit more about
> themselves.
>
> So, with that in mind, I'd talk it over with the child. *Don't* begin
> with the idea of convincing them they should let you push them since
> you feel it's a good idea for them. Listen to them. How do they feel
> with they're
>
>
> > Mom pushed her to try a 4-H horse competition which the kid found
> > she rather liked after doing it.
>
> And while she pursued that she was not pursuing something else. Maybe
> the other things would have been something she liked even better. Or
> not.
>
> The point is that there are a million choices we can make, a million
> things we could get interested in. Everytime we focus on one, there's
> nearly a million others we're not choosing. We can't ever know we've
> found the ultimate, best thing. But having the freedom to choose and
> explore is even better than certaint.
>
> > Mom says she wouldn't have so much knowledge about horses now and
> > wouldn't have found out she enjoyed such a class if she hadn't been
> > pushed a bit to do it.
>
>
> The daughter might even agree. But the most important thing is the
> mother is deciding on the value and that the pushing yielded
> something the mom values.
>
> The focus should be on the child. What does the child want? We know
> less what the child wants, less about who the child is -- the child
> knows less! -- the less we listen and the more we push.
>
> My daughter Kat's a very good distance runner and loves running. She
> joined the school cross country team. My husband loves running too
> and was on the same team when he was in high school. He loves
> competition. Not one of those rabid beat 'em types, but he gets
> jazzed setting up goals for himself. He tried to help her train to
> beat the cream of the crop. (Not a huge stretch since she's a natural
> at it.) At first she enjoyed it. But as she continued, she started to
> realize the goal of beating someone (and the possibility of failure)
> didn't float her boat. She just loved to run. It was hard for Carl to
> even grasp the idea of not caring about competing and there was a lot
> of strain until he finally accepted that someone could have great
> talent but want to do something other than what he'd do with it.
>
>
> > She feels it's human nature to go the easy route instead of trying
> > things that are tough.
>
>
> It's human nature to avoid what we feel is a waste of time, energy
> and resources.
>
> It's also human nature to pour energy into what we find fascinating.
>
> If someone is made to climb a mountain, they'll find the easiest
> path, and perhaps even cheat.
>
> If someone desires to climb a mountain, they may even make it more
> difficult -- challenging -- for themselves if the route doesn't light
> their fire.
>
> If it were human nature to go the easy route, I wouldn't be sitting
> here writing out a response! No one would write a novel. No one would
> climb Mt. Everest. No one would bake a cherry pie from scratch. No
> one would have kids ;-)
>
> > She said when she was growing up maybe if someone had pushed her
> > more to take tougher science classes, she would have become a vet.
>
>
> It's much easier to blame others for our failures than to accept
> responsibility.
>
> That sounds harsh and judgmental. It's meant as a universal truth.
> When we decide we aren't capable of something and feel that we can't
> accomplish something unless someone else uses their power over us to
> make us, we can absolve ourselves of failure. It's not our fault we
> aren't doing x. It's other people's fault for not pushing us, or not
> clearing the way for us.
>
> A far more useful life skill for kids is knowing they can do whatever
> they set their minds to. That trumps a knowledge of horses or guitar
> skills or ability to spell or whatever someone's personal need is.
>
> While it would be *easier* if her parents had pressured science on
> her. (*And* she had liked it.) Now, not being a vet isn't their
> responsibility. It's hers. She'd be living the idea that you can do
> anything you put your mind to if she decided to become a vet right
> now rather than modeling that you can blame your failures on others.
>
> For a shy child, it would be far more valuable for mom to help her
> find ways the daughter can use to get past the humps to do the things
> the daughter wants to do. If the daughter gets the idea she needs the
> mom to push her, she could end up at 20+ wishing her mom had pushed
> her in science so she could be a vet.
>
> > She knows of people who perused the college catalogues, saying
> > "Hmm, what are the easiest classes to take."
>
>
> When college is seen as another hoop they're pressured to jump
> through, why wouldn't they choose the easiest route? It isn't until
> school change to be relevant to people's lives, it isn't until a
> college degree isn't seen as the key to success, that kids won't be
> choosing for expediency's sake.
>
> When college is seen as one option to explore what fascinates you,
> then interest will be the determining factor in choosing courses.
> That's what will carry over from living a life exploring what
> fascinates you.
>
> Joyce
>
Joyce Fetteroll
On May 11, 2009, at 8:26 PM, dana_burdick wrote:
It was also incomplete! And obviously not reread for typos before I
clicked send. I usually don't compose straight down. I bounce around
as ideas come. So I leave several carriage returns to remind me to go
back and complete a thought. Apparently the space wasn't big enough! ;-)
Sorry about that.
particular fears. (It's possible they might not know. That's okay.
Don't pressure them or they'll pull further way.)
Suggest they try a class to see how it goes. Suggest they sit in on
an ongoing class (with the instructors permission). Take the class
with them. See this process as finding general strategies for trying
things rather than ways of getting them to take advantage of this
particular opportunity. There are *loads* of opportunities.
If it's something you're 99% certain they'll like, let them know
that. Ask them as a favor to give it a try for 1 (or 2 or 3) class.
(How many depends on your understanding of your child. I didn't sign
Kat up for classes that didn't sound up her alley and 3 seemed like a
good *suggestion*. She could opt out earlier.)
But be aware you only have so many "Trust me"s! I suspect the
opportunities that didn't work out don't loom as large as our
successes *for us*. But for our kids it's the opposite. You want your
"Trust me" to mean something. So you've got to nail it far more than
you flub it.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> This is just lovely Joyce - Articulate as ever. I'd love to seeThank you very much! I will do that :-)
> this one added to your website. (hint, hint) <G>
It was also incomplete! And obviously not reread for typos before I
clicked send. I usually don't compose straight down. I bounce around
as ideas come. So I leave several carriage returns to remind me to go
back and complete a thought. Apparently the space wasn't big enough! ;-)
Sorry about that.
> So, with that in mind, I'd talk it over with the child. *Don't*What are their objections? So you can target strategies to the
> begin with the idea of convincing them they should let you push
> them since you feel it's a good idea for them. Listen to them. How
> do they feel with they're
particular fears. (It's possible they might not know. That's okay.
Don't pressure them or they'll pull further way.)
Suggest they try a class to see how it goes. Suggest they sit in on
an ongoing class (with the instructors permission). Take the class
with them. See this process as finding general strategies for trying
things rather than ways of getting them to take advantage of this
particular opportunity. There are *loads* of opportunities.
If it's something you're 99% certain they'll like, let them know
that. Ask them as a favor to give it a try for 1 (or 2 or 3) class.
(How many depends on your understanding of your child. I didn't sign
Kat up for classes that didn't sound up her alley and 3 seemed like a
good *suggestion*. She could opt out earlier.)
But be aware you only have so many "Trust me"s! I suspect the
opportunities that didn't work out don't loom as large as our
successes *for us*. But for our kids it's the opposite. You want your
"Trust me" to mean something. So you've got to nail it far more than
you flub it.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Faith Void
OP: I have a friend who's interested in unschooling but feels that her
rather shy daughter would not have varied interests if she hadn't pushed her
at certain times.
***You can offer her resources. Has she read up in unschooling? That is a
very mainstream idea so not surprising. If she is interested in unschooling,
she will likely change quite a bit. I know that even coming from attachment
parenting when I discovered unschooling I had to take it one step further. I
really had to/have to dig deep to really BE there.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-==-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
OP: She likes horses, for ex., but Mom pushed her to try a 4-H horse
competition which the kid found she rather liked after doing it. Mom says
she wouldn't have so much knowledge about horses now and wouldn't have found
out she enjoyed such a class if she hadn't been pushed a bit to do it.
***Maybe mom is using semantics that show her perspective. I would say this
different if I were talking about one of my kids. I have a reluctant child.
There have been times I have asked him to try things. I have asked him to
step beyond what he thinks is his comfort zone. I would have (and did)
accept no as an anser. He was free to try or not or stop at anytime.
Generally, it goes like this:
I know you aren't sure about (riding a horse). I am thinking you might like
it because you really love animals and enjoying being with them. How about
you groom the horse first and get to know it? If you feel comfortable you
can ride. If you need more time lets take time. There is always another day.
Of course there would have been dialog from my child and likely I would have
been letting him come up with solutions. Most of the time he just watches
things until he's ready. He is exposed to a variety of thigns through his
siblings and parents interests. He either picks up an interest or not. he
watched quite a few gymnastics classes before he wanted to join.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
OP: She feels it's human nature to go the easy route instead of trying
things that are tough.
***I could have ignored this email instead of answering. I could never clean
my house. I could have choose not to have children. I frequently choose the
easy route, the path of pleasure. It is more pleasurable for me to do things
I love than things I hate. It is more fun to do things *I* want to do rather
than things others want for me.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
OP: She said when she was growing up maybe if someone had pushed her more to
take tougher science classes, she would have become a vet.
***That's a cop out. It is just as likely that she would have blamed them
for forcing her into a career she didn't want. First let go of attachment to
blaming.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-==-=-=-=-=-=-=-==-=-=-=-=-
OP: She knows of people who perused the college catalogues, saying "Hmm,
what are the easiest classes to take." I gave my own response, of course,
just wanted to hear others' opinions.
***Were those people unschooled? Do those people love their lives and feel
empowered to follow their personal path to joy? Not likely. They probably
feel obligated to "do something" and are feeling pressured to go to college.
They likely have no idea what they actually want.
Faith
--
http://faithvoid.blogspot.com/
www.bearthmama.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
rather shy daughter would not have varied interests if she hadn't pushed her
at certain times.
***You can offer her resources. Has she read up in unschooling? That is a
very mainstream idea so not surprising. If she is interested in unschooling,
she will likely change quite a bit. I know that even coming from attachment
parenting when I discovered unschooling I had to take it one step further. I
really had to/have to dig deep to really BE there.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-==-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
OP: She likes horses, for ex., but Mom pushed her to try a 4-H horse
competition which the kid found she rather liked after doing it. Mom says
she wouldn't have so much knowledge about horses now and wouldn't have found
out she enjoyed such a class if she hadn't been pushed a bit to do it.
***Maybe mom is using semantics that show her perspective. I would say this
different if I were talking about one of my kids. I have a reluctant child.
There have been times I have asked him to try things. I have asked him to
step beyond what he thinks is his comfort zone. I would have (and did)
accept no as an anser. He was free to try or not or stop at anytime.
Generally, it goes like this:
I know you aren't sure about (riding a horse). I am thinking you might like
it because you really love animals and enjoying being with them. How about
you groom the horse first and get to know it? If you feel comfortable you
can ride. If you need more time lets take time. There is always another day.
Of course there would have been dialog from my child and likely I would have
been letting him come up with solutions. Most of the time he just watches
things until he's ready. He is exposed to a variety of thigns through his
siblings and parents interests. He either picks up an interest or not. he
watched quite a few gymnastics classes before he wanted to join.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
OP: She feels it's human nature to go the easy route instead of trying
things that are tough.
***I could have ignored this email instead of answering. I could never clean
my house. I could have choose not to have children. I frequently choose the
easy route, the path of pleasure. It is more pleasurable for me to do things
I love than things I hate. It is more fun to do things *I* want to do rather
than things others want for me.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
OP: She said when she was growing up maybe if someone had pushed her more to
take tougher science classes, she would have become a vet.
***That's a cop out. It is just as likely that she would have blamed them
for forcing her into a career she didn't want. First let go of attachment to
blaming.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-==-=-=-=-=-=-=-==-=-=-=-=-
OP: She knows of people who perused the college catalogues, saying "Hmm,
what are the easiest classes to take." I gave my own response, of course,
just wanted to hear others' opinions.
***Were those people unschooled? Do those people love their lives and feel
empowered to follow their personal path to joy? Not likely. They probably
feel obligated to "do something" and are feeling pressured to go to college.
They likely have no idea what they actually want.
Faith
--
http://faithvoid.blogspot.com/
www.bearthmama.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
<OP: She knows of people who perused the college catalogues, saying "Hmm,
what are the easiest classes to take." I gave my own response, of course,
just wanted to hear others' opinions.>
<Faith***Were those people unschooled? Do those people love their lives
and feel
empowered to follow their personal path to joy? Not likely. They probably
feel obligated to "do something" and are feeling pressured to go to
college.>
I teach the occasional college module and find that the students who've
chosen my subject (History) as the path of least resistance tend to be those
who've recently been in school. I've not to my knowledge had any people
from an unschooling background, but the mature students and those who've
entered via the access programme (for those without school qualifications) do
not treat this subject as an easy option. They've come to it out of
fascination and are following an intense personal interest (very unschooly). They
almost invariably read around every topic, ask interesting questions and
tend not to obsess on what questions are on the exam paper - the exam is
just a means to their understanding the subject rather than an end in itself.
To me, that seems like a good endorsement of interest-led learning.
Jude x
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
what are the easiest classes to take." I gave my own response, of course,
just wanted to hear others' opinions.>
<Faith***Were those people unschooled? Do those people love their lives
and feel
empowered to follow their personal path to joy? Not likely. They probably
feel obligated to "do something" and are feeling pressured to go to
college.>
I teach the occasional college module and find that the students who've
chosen my subject (History) as the path of least resistance tend to be those
who've recently been in school. I've not to my knowledge had any people
from an unschooling background, but the mature students and those who've
entered via the access programme (for those without school qualifications) do
not treat this subject as an easy option. They've come to it out of
fascination and are following an intense personal interest (very unschooly). They
almost invariably read around every topic, ask interesting questions and
tend not to obsess on what questions are on the exam paper - the exam is
just a means to their understanding the subject rather than an end in itself.
To me, that seems like a good endorsement of interest-led learning.
Jude x
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]