reading and 'learning disabilities' - is there such a thing?
conj123
I never used to thing there was until now. I was hoping to get some clarity on this topic. me ?!!? My son is 12 and not reading yet (emergent level of reading). He did at one point want to learn and so we started doing what I did with my daughter and just showed him the sounds of the letters etc. (it worked for her) He wasn't getting it. I assumed he wasn't ready and he would get frustrated so I backed off. Now it seems he's 12 and still this hasn't kicked in. My question is does the reading thing not kick in for some people? I am thinking about sending him to a specialist but it totally goes against the grain of natural learning to me that I have followed since he's been born. I am so torn and confused about this. Can anyone recommmend/suggest/advise me in some way? I really don't know what to do at this point?!
Robin Bentley
On May 1, 2009, at 7:17 AM, conj123 wrote:
reading to rest.
http://sandradodd.com/r/carol
Robin B.
> I never used to thing there was until now. I was hoping to get someThis is the article that laid my fears about late (or never <g>)
> clarity on this topic. me ?!!? My son is 12 and not reading yet
> (emergent level of reading). He did at one point want to learn and
> so we started doing what I did with my daughter and just showed him
> the sounds of the letters etc. (it worked for her) He wasn't
> getting it. I assumed he wasn't ready and he would get frustrated
> so I backed off. Now it seems he's 12 and still this hasn't kicked
> in. My question is does the reading thing not kick in for some
> people? I am thinking about sending him to a specialist but it
> totally goes against the grain of natural learning to me that I have
> followed since he's been born. I am so torn and confused about
> this. Can anyone recommmend/suggest/advise me in some way? I
> really don't know what to do at this point?!
>
>
reading to rest.
http://sandradodd.com/r/carol
Robin B.
Schuyler
Simon, my 12 year old son, is just beginning to read. He reads every day. He reads things on-line and he reads subtitles. For his birthday I got him a Norse Mythology book so that he and I could cuddle up and read it together. I found him, the morning after, lying in his sleeping bag in the room where he and his sister and his friend had slept, reading the first chapter of the book. He doesn't get all the words, and often he's guessing what the word is. The pieces aren't all coming together.
He was never learning disabled, his becoming a reader isn't making him more learning abled. It's just another skill, another tool. In waiting for him to become a reader I've had moments of fear and doubt and worry. http://sandradodd.com/r/carol helped. All of http://sandradodd.com/reading helped even more. But more than that, hanging out with Simon and listening to him talk with knowledge about so many things has helped. Playing video games with him helped a lot to alleviate my concerns. He sees so much more than I do in a game, he is so tuned into so many more cues than I am. I look for words first, for instructions, for directions. Simon sees all that and more in examining a moment in a game. He listens so well, so much better than I do. Reading has handicapped me in many ways.
When I lived in Japan I was illiterate. I had to look for other ways to get information. I had to ask for help, I had to talk to people, I had to memorize the bus ideogram for getting home so that I could get on the right bus. I had to watch for patterns in things. It was amazing to explore the world without written words to direct me, to corral me, to narrow my vision. It wasn't quite liberating, but it was certainly not a disability.
As far as I know there are no unschooling children who have grown into illiterate adults. There are lots of schooled children who have. Reading is a skill that is mastered in its own time and in its own way. You'll just have to wait, patiently, and look for the skills that reading has pushed out in your life but have flourished in your son's life in its absence.
Schuyler
________________________________
From: conj123 <connie.k.johnson@...>
I never used to thing there was until now. I was hoping to get some clarity on this topic. me ?!!? My son is 12 and not reading yet (emergent level of reading). He did at one point want to learn and so we started doing what I did with my daughter and just showed him the sounds of the letters etc. (it worked for her) He wasn't getting it. I assumed he wasn't ready and he would get frustrated so I backed off. Now it seems he's 12 and still this hasn't kicked in. My question is does the reading thing not kick in for some people? I am thinking about sending him to a specialist but it totally goes against the grain of natural learning to me that I have followed since he's been born. I am so torn and confused about this. Can anyone recommmend/suggest/advise me in some way? I really don't know what to do at this point?!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
He was never learning disabled, his becoming a reader isn't making him more learning abled. It's just another skill, another tool. In waiting for him to become a reader I've had moments of fear and doubt and worry. http://sandradodd.com/r/carol helped. All of http://sandradodd.com/reading helped even more. But more than that, hanging out with Simon and listening to him talk with knowledge about so many things has helped. Playing video games with him helped a lot to alleviate my concerns. He sees so much more than I do in a game, he is so tuned into so many more cues than I am. I look for words first, for instructions, for directions. Simon sees all that and more in examining a moment in a game. He listens so well, so much better than I do. Reading has handicapped me in many ways.
When I lived in Japan I was illiterate. I had to look for other ways to get information. I had to ask for help, I had to talk to people, I had to memorize the bus ideogram for getting home so that I could get on the right bus. I had to watch for patterns in things. It was amazing to explore the world without written words to direct me, to corral me, to narrow my vision. It wasn't quite liberating, but it was certainly not a disability.
As far as I know there are no unschooling children who have grown into illiterate adults. There are lots of schooled children who have. Reading is a skill that is mastered in its own time and in its own way. You'll just have to wait, patiently, and look for the skills that reading has pushed out in your life but have flourished in your son's life in its absence.
Schuyler
________________________________
From: conj123 <connie.k.johnson@...>
I never used to thing there was until now. I was hoping to get some clarity on this topic. me ?!!? My son is 12 and not reading yet (emergent level of reading). He did at one point want to learn and so we started doing what I did with my daughter and just showed him the sounds of the letters etc. (it worked for her) He wasn't getting it. I assumed he wasn't ready and he would get frustrated so I backed off. Now it seems he's 12 and still this hasn't kicked in. My question is does the reading thing not kick in for some people? I am thinking about sending him to a specialist but it totally goes against the grain of natural learning to me that I have followed since he's been born. I am so torn and confused about this. Can anyone recommmend/suggest/advise me in some way? I really don't know what to do at this point?!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Amanda Mayan
My brother has severe neurological and learning challenges. He has been
schooled his entire life (albeit quite flexibly and creatively) in
traditional and special needs schools. 2 years ago he graduated with a
special degree (as opposed to the diploma one gets from going to a reg
school, even though he did graduate from a reg school. I go into his
background for a couple of reasons.
*from a very young age (maybe 4) David has been a wonderful
conversationalist, never at loss with regards to exposure to words,
information, and the rest, even though he did not read..TV is great, and my
parents always read to him as he was interested
*David, though considered illiterate, totally functions in society, been
able to read a menu (he LOVES food) since about 14, and has held a city job
as a fishing camp counselor every summer between 14-22.
*He has a great 3 day a week job as a teacher's assistant in a science lab
in a local private school
*while he has MANY challenges (inability to conceptualize numbers and money,
difficulty with written word, ect) he has thus far led a successful and
fulfilling life and thinks he can do anything he sets his mind to..in fact,
he is currently working on his GED with a tutor, since his dream is to be an
EMT, and he has to have a GED to qualify.
*I think key to David's success in life has been my parent's unconditional
support and lack of pressure or expectations on his abilities and skill
levels.(a lot of this was because when he was a baby he was not expected to
live past the age of 3, so they just tried to enjoy his time here.looks like
he is sticking around, but they didn't realize it until about 4 years ago,
and I think that really helped them seek the joy in life and not care so
much if he was reading or understood $). Truth is, we never know when our
last moments could be, so it's a pretty good way to live anyway!
I think that you really have to (in your mind) evaluate your child's lack of
reading and how it truly effects his life.can he recognize an EXIT and STOP
sign? (I once spent over an hour wandering around a mostly empty hospital in
Israel looking for the exit..i couldn't read the sign!) also, he will learn
when he is ready..with what motivates him.(menus in david's case).
Lastly, a 50 year old friend of mine claims to have graduated totally
illiterate from high school.he says he didn't learn to read until he was in
the military, so bored during down time he had no choice but to teach
himself to read to occupy himself. Our society has a lot of unrealized
opportunities for word and letter recognition..there is a large jump space
between illiteracy and being a "reader".just a couple of thoughts.
Amanda
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
schooled his entire life (albeit quite flexibly and creatively) in
traditional and special needs schools. 2 years ago he graduated with a
special degree (as opposed to the diploma one gets from going to a reg
school, even though he did graduate from a reg school. I go into his
background for a couple of reasons.
*from a very young age (maybe 4) David has been a wonderful
conversationalist, never at loss with regards to exposure to words,
information, and the rest, even though he did not read..TV is great, and my
parents always read to him as he was interested
*David, though considered illiterate, totally functions in society, been
able to read a menu (he LOVES food) since about 14, and has held a city job
as a fishing camp counselor every summer between 14-22.
*He has a great 3 day a week job as a teacher's assistant in a science lab
in a local private school
*while he has MANY challenges (inability to conceptualize numbers and money,
difficulty with written word, ect) he has thus far led a successful and
fulfilling life and thinks he can do anything he sets his mind to..in fact,
he is currently working on his GED with a tutor, since his dream is to be an
EMT, and he has to have a GED to qualify.
*I think key to David's success in life has been my parent's unconditional
support and lack of pressure or expectations on his abilities and skill
levels.(a lot of this was because when he was a baby he was not expected to
live past the age of 3, so they just tried to enjoy his time here.looks like
he is sticking around, but they didn't realize it until about 4 years ago,
and I think that really helped them seek the joy in life and not care so
much if he was reading or understood $). Truth is, we never know when our
last moments could be, so it's a pretty good way to live anyway!
I think that you really have to (in your mind) evaluate your child's lack of
reading and how it truly effects his life.can he recognize an EXIT and STOP
sign? (I once spent over an hour wandering around a mostly empty hospital in
Israel looking for the exit..i couldn't read the sign!) also, he will learn
when he is ready..with what motivates him.(menus in david's case).
Lastly, a 50 year old friend of mine claims to have graduated totally
illiterate from high school.he says he didn't learn to read until he was in
the military, so bored during down time he had no choice but to teach
himself to read to occupy himself. Our society has a lot of unrealized
opportunities for word and letter recognition..there is a large jump space
between illiteracy and being a "reader".just a couple of thoughts.
Amanda
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Ren Allen
~~ My son is 12 and not reading yet (emergent level of reading). He did at one point want to learn and so we started doing what I did with my daughter and just showed him the sounds of the letters etc. ~~
Jared (15) learned to read at 12. He went from not being able to read much of anything and having me read for him, to reading fluently within a three month period. Once it happens, it's almost overnight.
The couple of times he wanted to be told letter sounds, it just frustrated him in the end. He never learned to read that way. I think he's really adept at seeing patterns and words were just more patterns. Until he could recognize words in their entirety, it didn't make sense to him. Once he had a volume of entire words that were recognizable, he could read.
That's just my theory though. Because even Jared can't tell you how he learned to read. He just knew it at some point.
Ren
radicalunschooling.blogspot.com
Jared (15) learned to read at 12. He went from not being able to read much of anything and having me read for him, to reading fluently within a three month period. Once it happens, it's almost overnight.
The couple of times he wanted to be told letter sounds, it just frustrated him in the end. He never learned to read that way. I think he's really adept at seeing patterns and words were just more patterns. Until he could recognize words in their entirety, it didn't make sense to him. Once he had a volume of entire words that were recognizable, he could read.
That's just my theory though. Because even Jared can't tell you how he learned to read. He just knew it at some point.
Ren
radicalunschooling.blogspot.com
Lori
--- In [email protected], "conj123" <connie.k.johnson@...> wrote:
For the boys, one was officially tested with dyslexia and the other, has the same difficulties. The solution for them was for them to find a reason to read. The older son, now 25 learned to read after we got the internet. He wanted to be able to read the sports scores online. Our youngest has really worked at it, asking for help, yet still having difficulties. Click'nRead was a good program for him. Just this week, he commented to me that he has to really work hard at being able to spell even the basics. He likes to go on line at chat with his friends. His desire has really pushed him. For one of our children, reading recorded books as the CD reads has boosted skills. We also used the most frequently used word lists to give them "instant" words.
I remember freaking out a bit myself last year. Hang in there. What does he like? Ask if your son would like to try to find a tutor.
Enjoying the journey,
Lori
>We have seven children. Only one read at 6. Four read at age 8. Two, both of our sons read at 12 and 13.
> I never used to thing there was until now. I was hoping to get some clarity on this topic. me ?!!? My son is 12 and not reading yet (emergent level of reading).
For the boys, one was officially tested with dyslexia and the other, has the same difficulties. The solution for them was for them to find a reason to read. The older son, now 25 learned to read after we got the internet. He wanted to be able to read the sports scores online. Our youngest has really worked at it, asking for help, yet still having difficulties. Click'nRead was a good program for him. Just this week, he commented to me that he has to really work hard at being able to spell even the basics. He likes to go on line at chat with his friends. His desire has really pushed him. For one of our children, reading recorded books as the CD reads has boosted skills. We also used the most frequently used word lists to give them "instant" words.
I remember freaking out a bit myself last year. Hang in there. What does he like? Ask if your son would like to try to find a tutor.
Enjoying the journey,
Lori
Pam Sorooshian
On 5/2/2009 6:39 AM, Ren Allen wrote:
sounds all the letters of the alphabet could make, before she was
reading. She LEARNED a lot of the sounds by knowing the words and then
figuring out, over time, what sounds certain letters or letter
combinations were likely to make. For example, she eventually figured
out the "th" sound, but not until she'd memorized what a bunch of words
that contained "th" were. This is backwards from the way reading is
usually taught - usually letter sounds are taught and the kid builds up
to being able to use those letter sounds to "sound out" words. Rosie
couldn't sound out words, but she could recognize words without
awareness of the sound of each letter or combinations of letters. When
she'd built up a large set of recognizable words, she could read and
then she started to recognize sounds. I think because of the way she
learned to read, she really couldn't spell for years, though. She
started reading at 8 years old and could read well, but she couldn't
consistently spell even really simple words until she was 15 or 16 years
old. When it clicked for her, it clicked - she's a good speller now.
Rosie is a very physical person - she's graceful and coordinated. She's
learning sign language - taking a community college course - and she
only ever has to see and make a sign once and she never forgets it. Her
first "line of attack" in learning anything is to somehow physically
"do" it. If she'd been in school, the constraint of sitting still and
trying to learn without moving would have been very bad for her. When
she started really reading, it was a play script - she was in the play -
so the words were all connected with physical movement. I really don't
think that is a coincidence - the play was the bridge, for her, between
physical movement and reading.
Reading instruction programs are designed by people who live "in their
heads" and liked school - they became professional educators. They may
give lip service to multiple intelligences, but they almost always treat
intelligences other than linguistic as inferior and just to be used as
supplemental stuff - to make the real lesson more palatable to some
kids. The idea that kids can entirely use their own strengths and styles
of learning to learn to read completely differently than the way it is
taught in school - not something most people believe at all - not even
most homeschoolers.
It is so odd that our society expects kids to learn certain things on a
standardized timetable. We certainly don't expect that of adults - I
mean, doesn't it sound silly to say, "His geography is at a 38 year old
level?"
What difference does it make if a kid learns to read at 3 or 9 or 12 or
16 if he/she is living an experience-rich life filled with joyful
learning of other kinds than reading? It wouldn't matter at all if it
weren't for two things - (1) expectations that earlier reading is
"normal" lead to fear and anxiety that the child might not be okay -
might have some sort of neurological dysfunction, and (2) if the whole
society around us didn't use reading as their key indicator of
intelligence and sometimes shame and embarrass kids who read later.
There are work-arounds for those two problems for unschooling parents,
anyway. Parental confidence can go a long way toward ameliorating tem
and parents can do a lot to protect kids from them.
The benefits are HUGE. My daughter is so aware that she learned to read
in her own way and time and that carries over to everything else. She
has no sense of needing other people to tell her what to learn or when
to learn or how to learn - her mind is her own - her sense of self is
strong. Far from feeling disabled or "less than" others who read
earlier, she feels enabled and empowered by doing it her own way.
-pam
> The couple of times he wanted to be told letter sounds, it just frustrated him in the end. He never learned to read that way. I think he's really adept at seeing patterns and words were just more patterns. Until he could recognize words in their entirety, it didn't make sense to him. Once he had a volume of entire words that were recognizable, he could read.This is how Rosie learned to read, too. She really didn't even know the
>
> That's just my theory though. Because even Jared can't tell you how he learned to read. He just knew it at some point.
>
sounds all the letters of the alphabet could make, before she was
reading. She LEARNED a lot of the sounds by knowing the words and then
figuring out, over time, what sounds certain letters or letter
combinations were likely to make. For example, she eventually figured
out the "th" sound, but not until she'd memorized what a bunch of words
that contained "th" were. This is backwards from the way reading is
usually taught - usually letter sounds are taught and the kid builds up
to being able to use those letter sounds to "sound out" words. Rosie
couldn't sound out words, but she could recognize words without
awareness of the sound of each letter or combinations of letters. When
she'd built up a large set of recognizable words, she could read and
then she started to recognize sounds. I think because of the way she
learned to read, she really couldn't spell for years, though. She
started reading at 8 years old and could read well, but she couldn't
consistently spell even really simple words until she was 15 or 16 years
old. When it clicked for her, it clicked - she's a good speller now.
Rosie is a very physical person - she's graceful and coordinated. She's
learning sign language - taking a community college course - and she
only ever has to see and make a sign once and she never forgets it. Her
first "line of attack" in learning anything is to somehow physically
"do" it. If she'd been in school, the constraint of sitting still and
trying to learn without moving would have been very bad for her. When
she started really reading, it was a play script - she was in the play -
so the words were all connected with physical movement. I really don't
think that is a coincidence - the play was the bridge, for her, between
physical movement and reading.
Reading instruction programs are designed by people who live "in their
heads" and liked school - they became professional educators. They may
give lip service to multiple intelligences, but they almost always treat
intelligences other than linguistic as inferior and just to be used as
supplemental stuff - to make the real lesson more palatable to some
kids. The idea that kids can entirely use their own strengths and styles
of learning to learn to read completely differently than the way it is
taught in school - not something most people believe at all - not even
most homeschoolers.
It is so odd that our society expects kids to learn certain things on a
standardized timetable. We certainly don't expect that of adults - I
mean, doesn't it sound silly to say, "His geography is at a 38 year old
level?"
What difference does it make if a kid learns to read at 3 or 9 or 12 or
16 if he/she is living an experience-rich life filled with joyful
learning of other kinds than reading? It wouldn't matter at all if it
weren't for two things - (1) expectations that earlier reading is
"normal" lead to fear and anxiety that the child might not be okay -
might have some sort of neurological dysfunction, and (2) if the whole
society around us didn't use reading as their key indicator of
intelligence and sometimes shame and embarrass kids who read later.
There are work-arounds for those two problems for unschooling parents,
anyway. Parental confidence can go a long way toward ameliorating tem
and parents can do a lot to protect kids from them.
The benefits are HUGE. My daughter is so aware that she learned to read
in her own way and time and that carries over to everything else. She
has no sense of needing other people to tell her what to learn or when
to learn or how to learn - her mind is her own - her sense of self is
strong. Far from feeling disabled or "less than" others who read
earlier, she feels enabled and empowered by doing it her own way.
-pam
[email protected]
Just wanted to share an experience that seems very pertinent to this
thread. This evening, Jess and I went to a literary festival to see the poet
Benjamin Zephaniah:
_http://www.benjaminzephaniah.com/content/index.php_
(http://www.benjaminzephaniah.com/content/index.php)
He talked about his childhood, and we were stunned to hear that he had not
learned to read and write until he was 21. Yet he was making and
performing poetry from the age of 8. When he finally attended an adult literacy
class and learned that his problems with words on the page stemmed from
dyslexia, he was already a famous poet.
I guess his is a case of extremes in all kinds of ways, but it's very
inspirational.
Jude x
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
thread. This evening, Jess and I went to a literary festival to see the poet
Benjamin Zephaniah:
_http://www.benjaminzephaniah.com/content/index.php_
(http://www.benjaminzephaniah.com/content/index.php)
He talked about his childhood, and we were stunned to hear that he had not
learned to read and write until he was 21. Yet he was making and
performing poetry from the age of 8. When he finally attended an adult literacy
class and learned that his problems with words on the page stemmed from
dyslexia, he was already a famous poet.
I guess his is a case of extremes in all kinds of ways, but it's very
inspirational.
Jude x
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Ren Allen
~~She's
learning sign language - taking a community college course - and she
only ever has to see and make a sign once and she never forgets it. ~~
Jared was like that with his gaming cards and video games. He had hundreds of symbols memorized, attack and defense and all sorts of numbers in his mind, based on one single picture. Pokemon and Magic the Gathering were played before he knew how to read. Video games that usually "required" a person to have reading ability, he could beat.
I figured 26 symbols would be a breeze for him someday...in the end, he probably had a LOT of symbols (words) memorized rather than the 26 letters most of us learn. But it worked for him and that's all that matters.
I loved, loved, loved hearing the ways he saw things. Because he didn't read early, he saw things SO differently. Signs were ignored in favor of clouds and colors and interesting people. Once you can read you can't NOT read. So I think late readers have many advantages. The main one for unschoolers (no matter when they learn to read) is that quiet confidence you talk about Rosie having. Jared has that too and it makes me all warm and fuzzy...especially when I think about kids who can't read until 12 in school and the labels that go along with that. OUch.
Ren
radicalunschooling.blogspot.com
learning sign language - taking a community college course - and she
only ever has to see and make a sign once and she never forgets it. ~~
Jared was like that with his gaming cards and video games. He had hundreds of symbols memorized, attack and defense and all sorts of numbers in his mind, based on one single picture. Pokemon and Magic the Gathering were played before he knew how to read. Video games that usually "required" a person to have reading ability, he could beat.
I figured 26 symbols would be a breeze for him someday...in the end, he probably had a LOT of symbols (words) memorized rather than the 26 letters most of us learn. But it worked for him and that's all that matters.
I loved, loved, loved hearing the ways he saw things. Because he didn't read early, he saw things SO differently. Signs were ignored in favor of clouds and colors and interesting people. Once you can read you can't NOT read. So I think late readers have many advantages. The main one for unschoolers (no matter when they learn to read) is that quiet confidence you talk about Rosie having. Jared has that too and it makes me all warm and fuzzy...especially when I think about kids who can't read until 12 in school and the labels that go along with that. OUch.
Ren
radicalunschooling.blogspot.com
JRossedd
I read Pam's description of Rosie's physical learning preference right
before seeing this in the (subscriber) Chronicle of Higher Education.
Maybe Rosie and other unschoolers are just ahead of their time, and
School will follow their lead? Gooo-oo-al!
JJ
http://chronicle.com/weekly/v55/i35/35a00601.htm
New Sport Combines "Physical" with "Fiscal"
By KATHERINE MANGAN
It might not have been obvious to someone watching 300 University of
Miami students swatting at volleyballs with oven mitts or running down a
field cradling eggs that they were competing in financial management.
That is, until the players huddled on the sidelines to decide how much
debt to take on to overtake their opponents or how much interest they
could earn by saving instead. "Budgetball" is kind of like ultimate
Frisbee played with a volleyball — with a financial-planning seminar
thrown in.
It's being promoted by the National Academy of Public Administration to
raise students' awareness about fiscal responsibility and the national debt.
"Budgetball strips away the complicated jargon and confusing details of
the federal budget by turning 'fiscal' into 'physical,'" says Jennifer
L. Dorn, president of the academy. . .
before seeing this in the (subscriber) Chronicle of Higher Education.
Maybe Rosie and other unschoolers are just ahead of their time, and
School will follow their lead? Gooo-oo-al!
JJ
http://chronicle.com/weekly/v55/i35/35a00601.htm
New Sport Combines "Physical" with "Fiscal"
By KATHERINE MANGAN
It might not have been obvious to someone watching 300 University of
Miami students swatting at volleyballs with oven mitts or running down a
field cradling eggs that they were competing in financial management.
That is, until the players huddled on the sidelines to decide how much
debt to take on to overtake their opponents or how much interest they
could earn by saving instead. "Budgetball" is kind of like ultimate
Frisbee played with a volleyball — with a financial-planning seminar
thrown in.
It's being promoted by the National Academy of Public Administration to
raise students' awareness about fiscal responsibility and the national debt.
"Budgetball strips away the complicated jargon and confusing details of
the federal budget by turning 'fiscal' into 'physical,'" says Jennifer
L. Dorn, president of the academy. . .
Pam Sorooshian
On 5/4/2009 6:26 AM, JRossedd wrote:
written "physical" on an exam, when they meant "fiscal."
-pam
> "Budgetball strips away the complicated jargon and confusing details ofLOL - as an economics professor, I can't count how many students have
> the federal budget by turning 'fiscal' into 'physical,'"
written "physical" on an exam, when they meant "fiscal."
-pam