Suggestions for how to address 7YO leveling ultimatums?
Angela Wolff
**Apologies in advance. This is long. Probably longer than necessary. Sorry.**
OK, Wise Women. I've been lurking for a few weeks, trying to take in as much sage advice as possible as we work our way toward an unschooling lifestyle. (My almost 7YO has asked to finish out this year at school, but wants to be home after that). We are having one issue in particular with him that I'm just not sure how to deal with.
He's been leveling ultimatums about the conditions under which he will or won't do something, as well as telling us what we have to do to make things up to him if things aren't going 100 percent his way. This has gone beyond negotiations. It almost always involves yelling and scowling and foot stamping.
Interestingly enough, he has never really been the type to tantrum. And we are also of the mindset that he can always ask questions or propose alternate solutions. We don't want to be ignored, but we are open to working with the kids to come up with some sort of mutually agreeable solution. (If we want them to come to dinner and they are in the middle of something, we're happy to wait a reasonable amount of time. Or let them eat where they are depending on the food and activity, etc. We have always given them transition time between activities, etc.) We also are not the sort to invalidate the kids' feelings. They always have the right to be disappointed or frustrated or angry or whatever. But just as we do not take our feelings out on them, we don't want them taking their feelings out on each other or on us.
Back to the ultimatums: There was a pretty harsh instance last night, and we probably told him he didn't have the right to speak to us in that manner, but we let it go at the time. No good would have come from trying to discuss it while he was agitated. So, I tried talking to him about it today. I asked him what we should do. And he just suggested that we punish him (send him to his room) in 10 minute increments: 10 for first offense, 20 for second, etc. Then he suggested that we let him earn some present if he went a week without doing it. ick. Not only do I not like that sort of thing, at this point he can't go half an hour without doing it to either me, or his sister.
I explained to him that I wasn't so much interested in punishing him as helping him figure out a new way to react to frustrations that would not only have a better chance of helping get what he wants, but have the rest of us not feeling crummy. A long time ago we had used -- at his suggestion -- "Try again" when he said something rude. We talked about that again, and he said we should do that.
But, sure enough, when it was time to go pick up his sister from school, he started yelling at me about how I had to take him to the library to rent the TV show he was going to be missing. (He'd been given plenty of warning and there was no option for his not going with me -- I know, I know saying "no options" usually means "DING, DING, DING There was your missed opportunity right there." But really, in this circumstance at this time, there were no other options.) When I very evenly said, "Try again." He just squinted his eyes at me and said something to the effect of "and I MEAN it. AS SOON as we get home."
He did finally go to the car, but not without calling me stupid and sticking his tongue out at me.
So, what is my response to this sort of thing IN THE MOMENT? And what's the best way to address the situation proactively? Also, this is not something that is happening around one particular set of circumstances, it's happening any time he's not getting exactly what he wants when he wants it.
There are the (perhaps) complicating factors that he is in about week three of an anti-yeast/anti-inflammatory diet due to allergies and other health issues. He is also in the last days of chicken pox. I can understand that trying to address this issue while he's still recovering from the pox may not be the best idea, but I don't know that I can wait out the yeast overgrowth. And it's not like this ill behavior came on with the chicken pox. It also predates the dietary changes, though I do think it's been getting worse.
OK, thoughts? Be gentle (-;
Angela Wolff
(Joseph, 7; Hannah, 4; Miriam 18 mo.)
OK, Wise Women. I've been lurking for a few weeks, trying to take in as much sage advice as possible as we work our way toward an unschooling lifestyle. (My almost 7YO has asked to finish out this year at school, but wants to be home after that). We are having one issue in particular with him that I'm just not sure how to deal with.
He's been leveling ultimatums about the conditions under which he will or won't do something, as well as telling us what we have to do to make things up to him if things aren't going 100 percent his way. This has gone beyond negotiations. It almost always involves yelling and scowling and foot stamping.
Interestingly enough, he has never really been the type to tantrum. And we are also of the mindset that he can always ask questions or propose alternate solutions. We don't want to be ignored, but we are open to working with the kids to come up with some sort of mutually agreeable solution. (If we want them to come to dinner and they are in the middle of something, we're happy to wait a reasonable amount of time. Or let them eat where they are depending on the food and activity, etc. We have always given them transition time between activities, etc.) We also are not the sort to invalidate the kids' feelings. They always have the right to be disappointed or frustrated or angry or whatever. But just as we do not take our feelings out on them, we don't want them taking their feelings out on each other or on us.
Back to the ultimatums: There was a pretty harsh instance last night, and we probably told him he didn't have the right to speak to us in that manner, but we let it go at the time. No good would have come from trying to discuss it while he was agitated. So, I tried talking to him about it today. I asked him what we should do. And he just suggested that we punish him (send him to his room) in 10 minute increments: 10 for first offense, 20 for second, etc. Then he suggested that we let him earn some present if he went a week without doing it. ick. Not only do I not like that sort of thing, at this point he can't go half an hour without doing it to either me, or his sister.
I explained to him that I wasn't so much interested in punishing him as helping him figure out a new way to react to frustrations that would not only have a better chance of helping get what he wants, but have the rest of us not feeling crummy. A long time ago we had used -- at his suggestion -- "Try again" when he said something rude. We talked about that again, and he said we should do that.
But, sure enough, when it was time to go pick up his sister from school, he started yelling at me about how I had to take him to the library to rent the TV show he was going to be missing. (He'd been given plenty of warning and there was no option for his not going with me -- I know, I know saying "no options" usually means "DING, DING, DING There was your missed opportunity right there." But really, in this circumstance at this time, there were no other options.) When I very evenly said, "Try again." He just squinted his eyes at me and said something to the effect of "and I MEAN it. AS SOON as we get home."
He did finally go to the car, but not without calling me stupid and sticking his tongue out at me.
So, what is my response to this sort of thing IN THE MOMENT? And what's the best way to address the situation proactively? Also, this is not something that is happening around one particular set of circumstances, it's happening any time he's not getting exactly what he wants when he wants it.
There are the (perhaps) complicating factors that he is in about week three of an anti-yeast/anti-inflammatory diet due to allergies and other health issues. He is also in the last days of chicken pox. I can understand that trying to address this issue while he's still recovering from the pox may not be the best idea, but I don't know that I can wait out the yeast overgrowth. And it's not like this ill behavior came on with the chicken pox. It also predates the dietary changes, though I do think it's been getting worse.
OK, thoughts? Be gentle (-;
Angela Wolff
(Joseph, 7; Hannah, 4; Miriam 18 mo.)
Schuyler
My time with my children seems to make the biggest difference in how
they respond to things. Linnaea has had periods of time that were
marked by huge mood swings and volatile emotions. The last one was when
she was 7 almost 8 and it lasted for a few months. It was hard and
depressing and exhausting. I kept looking for ways to fix her. To make
her better. I wanted her to see that she wasn't happy and to make the
effort to be happier. It didn't work. It just made her feel bad. After
she blew up she felt so awful for the blow up that she'd stay upset and
the upset would become self-loathing. I stopped trying to fix it. I
stopped seeing it as something I could solve if I could just get the
words right so that she would understand. I started to just sit with
her when she was upset and to be with her much more when she wasn't. I
played with her more, I got us all out more for sword and light sabre
battles at castle ruins and days in town. I made sure that hungry
wasn't coming into play. I upped all of my care and attention, both for
her and for Simon.
In the end I don't know what stopped the cycle. I don't know if it was
a phase, a developmental period of incredible discomfort that she moved
through. I do know that the attention made a difference. I do know that
me being more present really helped enormously in lengthening the time
between her meltdowns and the duration of each one. I also know that trying to talk to her about what was going on seemed to make it worse. But listening and sitting with her and holding her when she was ready to be held made it better.
You wrote that there weren't specific triggers, but you also said that
he is demanding recompense when things aren't going his way. Can you
work to meet his demands? Can you do what you can to get things to go
his way? You said you are open to your children coming up with
alternate solutions, I liked his solution of going to the library to
rent the dvd of the television show he was missing. Could you have also
looked on-line and seen if you could have rented it from netflix or
watched it on the channel's webpage? It will help him to feel more
valued if you do make the effort to meet his needs when he is being
asked to submit to someone else's needs, like going to pick up his
sister from school. I do it a lot with Simon and Linnaea. If I need to
go do something, and there isn't any way that I can let them stay at
home or accomodate their preference, I will offer incentives, payments, for them coming along. A stop at a gaming store, a trip to
Burger King or whatever else they might like, those things make the
trip not just about what I need to get done, but also about giving them
pleasure. Giving him what he asks for, no matter how he asked, isn't spoiling him or rewarding him for bad behaviour, it's helping him to get what he needs. The more you do that, the better he'll feel about himself and about you and the less likely he is to feel a need to call you stupid or stick his tongue out at you. Those are the actions of someone who feels powerless, help him to feel powerful.
Schuyler
________________________________
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He's been leveling ultimatums about the conditions under which he will or won't do something, as well as telling us what we have to do to make things up to him if things aren't going 100 percent his way. This has gone beyond negotiations. It almost always involves yelling and scowling and foot stamping.
Interestingly enough, he has never really been the type to tantrum. And we are also of the mindset that he can always ask questions or propose alternate solutions. We don't want to be ignored, but we are open to working with the kids to come up with some sort of mutually agreeable solution. (If we want them to come to dinner and they are in the middle of something, we're happy to wait a reasonable amount of time. Or let them eat where they are depending on the food and activity, etc. We have always given them transition time between activities, etc.) We also are not the sort to invalidate the kids' feelings. They always have the right to be disappointed or frustrated or angry or whatever. But just as we do not take our feelings out on them, we don't want them taking their feelings out on each other or on us.
Back to the ultimatums: There was a pretty harsh instance last night, and we probably told him he didn't have the right to speak to us in that manner, but we let it go at the time. No good would have come from trying to discuss it while he was agitated. So, I tried talking to him about it today. I asked him what we should do. And he just suggested that we punish him (send him to his room) in 10 minute increments: 10 for first offense, 20 for second, etc. Then he suggested that we let him earn some present if he went a week without doing it. ick. Not only do I not like that sort of thing, at this point he can't go half an hour without doing it to either me, or his sister.
I explained to him that I wasn't so much interested in punishing him as helping him figure out a new way to react to frustrations that would not only have a better chance of helping get what he wants, but have the rest of us not feeling crummy. A long time ago we had used -- at his suggestion -- "Try again" when he said something rude. We talked about that again, and he said we should do that.
But, sure enough, when it was time to go pick up his sister from school, he started yelling at me about how I had to take him to the library to rent the TV show he was going to be missing. (He'd been given plenty of warning and there was no option for his not going with me -- I know, I know saying "no options" usually means "DING, DING, DING There was your missed opportunity right there." But really, in this circumstance at this time, there were no other options.) When I very evenly said, "Try again." He just squinted his eyes at me and said something to the effect of "and I MEAN it. AS SOON as we get home."
He did finally go to the car, but not without calling me stupid and sticking his tongue out at me.
So, what is my response to this sort of thing IN THE MOMENT? And what's the best way to address the situation proactively? Also, this is not something that is happening around one particular set of circumstances, it's happening any time he's not getting exactly what he wants when he wants it.
There are the (perhaps) complicating factors that he is in about week three of an anti-yeast/anti-inflammatory diet due to allergies and other health issues. He is also in the last days of chicken pox. I can understand that trying to address this issue while he's still recovering from the pox may not be the best idea, but I don't know that I can wait out the yeast overgrowth. And it's not like this ill behavior came on with the chicken pox. It also predates the dietary changes, though I do think it's been getting worse.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
they respond to things. Linnaea has had periods of time that were
marked by huge mood swings and volatile emotions. The last one was when
she was 7 almost 8 and it lasted for a few months. It was hard and
depressing and exhausting. I kept looking for ways to fix her. To make
her better. I wanted her to see that she wasn't happy and to make the
effort to be happier. It didn't work. It just made her feel bad. After
she blew up she felt so awful for the blow up that she'd stay upset and
the upset would become self-loathing. I stopped trying to fix it. I
stopped seeing it as something I could solve if I could just get the
words right so that she would understand. I started to just sit with
her when she was upset and to be with her much more when she wasn't. I
played with her more, I got us all out more for sword and light sabre
battles at castle ruins and days in town. I made sure that hungry
wasn't coming into play. I upped all of my care and attention, both for
her and for Simon.
In the end I don't know what stopped the cycle. I don't know if it was
a phase, a developmental period of incredible discomfort that she moved
through. I do know that the attention made a difference. I do know that
me being more present really helped enormously in lengthening the time
between her meltdowns and the duration of each one. I also know that trying to talk to her about what was going on seemed to make it worse. But listening and sitting with her and holding her when she was ready to be held made it better.
You wrote that there weren't specific triggers, but you also said that
he is demanding recompense when things aren't going his way. Can you
work to meet his demands? Can you do what you can to get things to go
his way? You said you are open to your children coming up with
alternate solutions, I liked his solution of going to the library to
rent the dvd of the television show he was missing. Could you have also
looked on-line and seen if you could have rented it from netflix or
watched it on the channel's webpage? It will help him to feel more
valued if you do make the effort to meet his needs when he is being
asked to submit to someone else's needs, like going to pick up his
sister from school. I do it a lot with Simon and Linnaea. If I need to
go do something, and there isn't any way that I can let them stay at
home or accomodate their preference, I will offer incentives, payments, for them coming along. A stop at a gaming store, a trip to
Burger King or whatever else they might like, those things make the
trip not just about what I need to get done, but also about giving them
pleasure. Giving him what he asks for, no matter how he asked, isn't spoiling him or rewarding him for bad behaviour, it's helping him to get what he needs. The more you do that, the better he'll feel about himself and about you and the less likely he is to feel a need to call you stupid or stick his tongue out at you. Those are the actions of someone who feels powerless, help him to feel powerful.
Schuyler
________________________________
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
He's been leveling ultimatums about the conditions under which he will or won't do something, as well as telling us what we have to do to make things up to him if things aren't going 100 percent his way. This has gone beyond negotiations. It almost always involves yelling and scowling and foot stamping.
Interestingly enough, he has never really been the type to tantrum. And we are also of the mindset that he can always ask questions or propose alternate solutions. We don't want to be ignored, but we are open to working with the kids to come up with some sort of mutually agreeable solution. (If we want them to come to dinner and they are in the middle of something, we're happy to wait a reasonable amount of time. Or let them eat where they are depending on the food and activity, etc. We have always given them transition time between activities, etc.) We also are not the sort to invalidate the kids' feelings. They always have the right to be disappointed or frustrated or angry or whatever. But just as we do not take our feelings out on them, we don't want them taking their feelings out on each other or on us.
Back to the ultimatums: There was a pretty harsh instance last night, and we probably told him he didn't have the right to speak to us in that manner, but we let it go at the time. No good would have come from trying to discuss it while he was agitated. So, I tried talking to him about it today. I asked him what we should do. And he just suggested that we punish him (send him to his room) in 10 minute increments: 10 for first offense, 20 for second, etc. Then he suggested that we let him earn some present if he went a week without doing it. ick. Not only do I not like that sort of thing, at this point he can't go half an hour without doing it to either me, or his sister.
I explained to him that I wasn't so much interested in punishing him as helping him figure out a new way to react to frustrations that would not only have a better chance of helping get what he wants, but have the rest of us not feeling crummy. A long time ago we had used -- at his suggestion -- "Try again" when he said something rude. We talked about that again, and he said we should do that.
But, sure enough, when it was time to go pick up his sister from school, he started yelling at me about how I had to take him to the library to rent the TV show he was going to be missing. (He'd been given plenty of warning and there was no option for his not going with me -- I know, I know saying "no options" usually means "DING, DING, DING There was your missed opportunity right there." But really, in this circumstance at this time, there were no other options.) When I very evenly said, "Try again." He just squinted his eyes at me and said something to the effect of "and I MEAN it. AS SOON as we get home."
He did finally go to the car, but not without calling me stupid and sticking his tongue out at me.
So, what is my response to this sort of thing IN THE MOMENT? And what's the best way to address the situation proactively? Also, this is not something that is happening around one particular set of circumstances, it's happening any time he's not getting exactly what he wants when he wants it.
There are the (perhaps) complicating factors that he is in about week three of an anti-yeast/anti-inflammatory diet due to allergies and other health issues. He is also in the last days of chicken pox. I can understand that trying to address this issue while he's still recovering from the pox may not be the best idea, but I don't know that I can wait out the yeast overgrowth. And it's not like this ill behavior came on with the chicken pox. It also predates the dietary changes, though I do think it's been getting worse.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
N CONFER
"He did finally go to the car, but not without calling me stupid and sticking his tongue out at me."
It's tough being 7 (or any age :) ) and it can be tough on Mom or Dad. Forgive and move on from these little outbursts. That's what I would do. Have done.
It's not easy. And I'm sure you will get advice about rearranging your day or whatever other accommodations could be made. (My first thought was that he's in school and getting one set of messages and at home he's getting another set and he's only 7 and maybe it's time to pull the plug on school and just start summer. OTOH, with that mix, getting to make his own decisions may be overwhelming at this point and maybe he needs to ease into it with a bit more guidance. It's a big change for everyone. See, that may or may not fit your situation at all. Just my thought.) But sometimes you just need to suck it up and not take every utterance to heart.
Nance
It's tough being 7 (or any age :) ) and it can be tough on Mom or Dad. Forgive and move on from these little outbursts. That's what I would do. Have done.
It's not easy. And I'm sure you will get advice about rearranging your day or whatever other accommodations could be made. (My first thought was that he's in school and getting one set of messages and at home he's getting another set and he's only 7 and maybe it's time to pull the plug on school and just start summer. OTOH, with that mix, getting to make his own decisions may be overwhelming at this point and maybe he needs to ease into it with a bit more guidance. It's a big change for everyone. See, that may or may not fit your situation at all. Just my thought.) But sometimes you just need to suck it up and not take every utterance to heart.
Nance
Joyce Fetteroll
On Apr 30, 2009, at 4:45 PM, Angela Wolff wrote:
daughter.
Is the show on line?
Another option is more awareness that he was starting a show that
couldn't be finished before you had to leave. You could have pointed
that out and discussed other options (something on a DVD or a gameboy
or a book that's more interruptible for example.)
DVR's are one of the world's top inventions for peaceful
parenting! :-) It frees kids from the stranglehold of programmer's
whims of when people can watch their shows.
I know that doesn't solve the ultimatum problem but it opens more
options for the future.
that right now.
But from his point of view his upsetness isn't unexpected (and age
will help him get a handle on better ways to respond to upsetness).
His show's being stopped in the middle and he's being asked to
inconvenience himself because he's too young to stay home by himself.
It's a situation ripe for being pissed about. Warnings about it being
nearly time to leave really don't change the whole situation.
I might be wrong -- and I hope someone either corroborates or
corrects me! -- that 7ish can be a very commanding age. And it's
being exacerbated by the illness and his feeling off.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> But really, in this circumstance at this time, there were no otherDo you have a VCR? You could have taped it. That's what I did with my
> options.
daughter.
Is the show on line?
Another option is more awareness that he was starting a show that
couldn't be finished before you had to leave. You could have pointed
that out and discussed other options (something on a DVD or a gameboy
or a book that's more interruptible for example.)
DVR's are one of the world's top inventions for peaceful
parenting! :-) It frees kids from the stranglehold of programmer's
whims of when people can watch their shows.
I know that doesn't solve the ultimatum problem but it opens more
options for the future.
> He did finally go to the car, but not without calling me stupid andIn those cases our initial reaction is to control. We need to stop
> sticking his tongue out at me.
that right now.
But from his point of view his upsetness isn't unexpected (and age
will help him get a handle on better ways to respond to upsetness).
His show's being stopped in the middle and he's being asked to
inconvenience himself because he's too young to stay home by himself.
It's a situation ripe for being pissed about. Warnings about it being
nearly time to leave really don't change the whole situation.
I might be wrong -- and I hope someone either corroborates or
corrects me! -- that 7ish can be a very commanding age. And it's
being exacerbated by the illness and his feeling off.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]